D&D Base Class Contest XVI Chat Thread

[MoleMage]

Welcome to the chat thread for the sixteenth Base Class Competition for D&D 5e. If you wish to say anything about the competition which is neither a submission nor a vote, then it belongs here. You do not need to be a contestant to post here. You are allowed to critique a competitor’s work and offer suggestions on how to improve their homebrew through this thread, but it is preferred if you do so through that class’ specific thread (if applicable).

Current Contest: Divine Judgment (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?633671-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-XVI-Divine-Judgment)
Voting Thread: Coming September 13.

1st contest: Who Needs Swords or Sorcery? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?556338-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-I-Who-needs-Swords-OR-Sorcerery), won by WarrentheHero with the Inventor

2nd contest: Expect a low Margin of Terror (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?560208-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-II-expect-a-low-Margin-of-Terror), Won by Mourne with the Sleepwalker

3rd Contest: The Elements, and not the Periodic Ones (Probably?) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?565360-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-III-The-Elements-and-not-the-periodic-ones-(probably-)!), won By Pygmybatrider with The Shaman

4th contest: Does Not Meet Expectations (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?570496-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-IV-Does-Not-Meet-Expectations), won with a tie by Molemage with the Destined and Pygmybatrider's Mesmer

5th contest: Time to Chill out (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?576131-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-V-Time-to-Chill-Out&p=23567807#post23567807), won by Molemage with the Wintreborn

6th contest: The Monster Mash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?581138-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-VI-The-Monster-Mash), won with a three-way tie by Molemage with the Golem, theVoidWatches with the Lycanthrope, and daemonaetae with the Elemental Scion

7th contest: Remix Mastery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?587919-D-amp-D-Base-Class-Contest-VII-Remix-Mastery&p=23906232#post23906232), won by KOLE with the Ranger Remixed

8th contest: Contest VIII: Magic Without Slots (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?594571-D-amp-D-Base-Class-Contest-VIII-Magic-Without-Slots&p=24070927#post24070927), won by MoleMage with the Cultist

9th contest: It's Time for Time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?600537-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-IX-It-s-Time-for-Time&p=24361802#post24361802), won by MoleMage with the Clockwinder

10th contest: Blast from the Past (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?606841-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-X-Blast-from-the-Past), won by PairO'DiceLost with the Martial Adept

11th contest: Contest XI: Signature Creation (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?612097-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-XI-Signature-Creation&p=24502355#post24502355) won by MoleMage with the Chef

12th contest: Contest XII: Hybrid Vigor (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?616515-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-XII-Hybrid-Vigor) won by MoleMage with the Witch

13th contest: Based in Science (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?620836-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-XIII-Based-in-Science) won by Old Harry MTX with the Pilot

14th contest: Contest XIV: Monster Mash II (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624969-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-XIV-Monster-Mash-II&p=24871549#post24871549) won by BerzerkerUnit with the Beheld.

15th contest: Contest XV: Partial Casters (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?628967-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-XV-Partial-Casters) won by Damon_Tor with the Spellslinger.



1) The class you homebrew should fit the theme. You can interpret the theme as broadly as you like without risk of disqualification, but doing so may reduce your chances of earning votes during the voting period.
2) You may only create one base class. If you create more than one class then you must choose which one to enter and remove all the others from this thread and the contest (making them invalid) . If you do not specify which one you favor by the time voting begins, all of your content is invalid.
3) When you submit your class you must create a post on this thread which either has the content or holds a link to it. You may also optionally create one other individual thread for your class on the homebrew design sub-forum. If it is found that you have revealed your class on another site or on another thread than one on the homebrew design sub-forum, your entry will be considered invalid. If you do make a specific thread for you class, please mention its involvement to the competition in that thread. If you use external formatting resources such as Homebrewery, or GMBinder it is recommended that you also create a PDF of the content and share it here.
4) You may use other homebrew content (such as feats, spells, magical items and monsters) or even features to supplement your class, provided you have permission from the original creator and provide links to the source. Failure to receive permission from the original creation will disqualify you from entry in the current contest.
5) Your class must have fully completed mechanics and descriptions for it to be valid. Entries are due by 11:59 PM Central Time on the deadline. Any submissions after this point are invalid. No changes can be made to your class while voting is taking place. Failure to comply with the previous rule will result in disqualification.
6) Any content which has been declared invalid by the rules above cannot be voted for, but you may decide to remove it from the contest and create another class instead. If you are disqualified then you are not allowed to enter any more homebrew for this competition, though you may still vote and later enter the next competition.
7) Please note that misunderstandings occur, if you break a rule which results in disqualification it might be excused if you can convince the group that it was a result of confusion over the rules.

Contests stay up for 8 weeks unless an extension is requested by participants. Voting threads then go up for 3 weeks before the next contest begins.


Dragons (What it says on the face.)
Heroes from Myths (Take a specific figure from myth, folklore, or cultural stories, like Heracles or the Monkey King or even Paul Bunyan, and make it a class.)
Other Media (Games, books, comics, movies, music, theater, even other TTRPGS).
Breakfast Cereal Mascots (Current or historical.)
Be Your Own Class (Turn an existing subclass into a feature-complete base class of its own.)
Not in Kansas Anymore (You can't use the same core damage or spell progression as any of the core classes.)

Also note that themes that have not been used in at least six contests (anything up to It's Time for Time) are also eligible for being chosen.

[luuma]

Currently drafting up a halfcaster heretic assassin that aims, by and large, to find and kill god. Hope that's still on theme for "divine judgment" - if the divine's getting judged, rather than judging!

The Godslayer (https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-MdsrUcgqtw0EyO0vQxD) v0.1 - a half-caster without extra attack, but with 2/3 rogue sneak scaling.
- Can put its own version of "sneak attack" on both spell and weapon attacks, on its own turn. This sounds (and is) pretty strong but doesn't particularly exceed what paladin can do until late levels - because it replaces fighting style, Extra Attack, and 11th/17th level features! Regarding damage calcs, an 11th level minmaxed paladin core class carrying a shield with dueling does 2d8+14+2d8=32 with its action, while this does 4d6+1d8+5= 23.5 average. Expending a 2nd level spell slot, paladin smite increases by 3d8 to 45.5, while godslayer casting inflict wounds deals 4d6+4d10 = 36. This leaves me plenty of space to give them other strong features. Speaking of which:
- Spell list is done, granting a mix of cleric offensive spells and wizard defensive spells, giving it a "novel" niche that I am sure has been done before but will pursue regardless lol. The one I am most likely to delete is spiritual weapon - it is extremely strong, works outrageously well with the above feature, and its flavour text references gods. blasphemous.
- Planning to base the subclasses around foiling specific cleric domains - an anti-trickster with see invisibility, and an anti-death subclass with death ward, etc.
- Capstone quite literally permits them to kill a god


Feedback much appreciated <3

[MoleMage]

I have two main ideas for this one, not sure which to pursue.

Idea 1: the Avatar is a martial hybrid class. Their main mechanic is to transform temporarily into a more powerful god-like state. The state lasts a limited time, and they can shorten the transformation as a resource for some class features. As they level up they have more time transformed and therefor can access their resource features more frequently.

Idea 2: the Prophet is a pact-progression caster. Their secondary mechanic are Omens. They can declare an Omen when they cast a leveled spell, and each Omen has a trigger condition. When the trigger condition of the Omen occurs, the Prophet can use their reaction to activate it. At high levels, they can skip the first trigger to get a more powerful activation effect later on.

[Snowben Gaming]

I have two main ideas for this one, not sure which to pursue.

Idea 1: the Avatar is a martial hybrid class. Their main mechanic is to transform temporarily into a more powerful god-like state. The state lasts a limited time, and they can shorten the transformation as a resource for some class features. As they level up they have more time transformed and therefor can access their resource features more frequently.

Idea 2: the Prophet is a pact-progression caster. Their secondary mechanic are Omens. They can declare an Omen when they cast a leveled spell, and each Omen has a trigger condition. When the trigger condition of the Omen occurs, the Prophet can use their reaction to activate it. At high levels, they can skip the first trigger to get a more powerful activation effect later on.

The Prophet sounds most interesting to me, but the Avatar still sounds pretty good.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I have two main ideas for this one, not sure which to pursue.

Idea 1: the Avatar is a martial hybrid class. Their main mechanic is to transform temporarily into a more powerful god-like state. The state lasts a limited time, and they can shorten the transformation as a resource for some class features. As they level up they have more time transformed and therefor can access their resource features more frequently.

Idea 2: the Prophet is a pact-progression caster. Their secondary mechanic are Omens. They can declare an Omen when they cast a leveled spell, and each Omen has a trigger condition. When the trigger condition of the Omen occurs, the Prophet can use their reaction to activate it. At high levels, they can skip the first trigger to get a more powerful activation effect later on.

The Avatar reminds me of The Giant's Champion class for 3.5E. I always loved that thing, even if I never did get the chance to play it. Consider my vote tossed there.

[luuma]

Hope you're feeling better now, my guy.

The Prophet sounds extremely interesting, and I would absolutely love to see it. I reckon it's also more challenging to design - there's a high risk that the Omen's trigger just doesn't occur, which would feel really bad.

It probably makes sense for the Omens to focus on things that the party can enact themselves - e.g, triggering when the party hits the target with three attacks in a single round, rather than triggering when the target chooses takes the dodge action etc.

re: the avatar, "transformation time" sounds like an interesting a resource, but I imagine it would be weird in practice. If the only cost is duration, that means most of your resources are essentially free in quick engagements, and very expensive in drawn-out ones. I think it might be better if you sort of flip the idea on its head and have a pool of points that you can expend to either extend the transformation or fuel other features.

Excited to see how it turns out!

[sengmeng]

All right, the Punchadin is complete. PEACHes welcome but I probably won't change anything.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Hope you're feeling better now, my guy.

The Prophet sounds extremely interesting, and I would absolutely love to see it. I reckon it's also more challenging to design - there's a high risk that the Omen's trigger just doesn't occur, which would feel really bad.

It probably makes sense for the Omens to focus on things that the party can enact themselves - e.g, triggering when the party hits the target with three attacks in a single round, rather than triggering when the target chooses takes the dodge action etc.

re: the avatar, "transformation time" sounds like an interesting a resource, but I imagine it would be weird in practice. If the only cost is duration, that means most of your resources are essentially free in quick engagements, and very expensive in drawn-out ones. I think it might be better if you sort of flip the idea on its head and have a pool of points that you can expend to either extend the transformation or fuel other features.

Excited to see how it turns out!

An interesting mechanic if on the event Omen triggers don’t happen might be something like:

Fate Delayed
Beginning at Xth level, if your Omen is not triggered it only means fate has a more dire plan. When an Omen is not triggered you gain a 1d6 Doom die. You can hold a number of Doom dice equal to your proficiency bonus. You can roll one or more of these dice as a reaction when a creature you can see is damaged or rolls a saving throw adding the result to the damage or penalizing the save by the result.

[luuma]

An interesting mechanic if on the event Omen triggers don’t happen might be something like:

Fate Delayed
Beginning at Xth level, if your Omen is not triggered it only means fate has a more dire plan. When an Omen is not triggered you gain a 1d6 Doom die. You can hold a number of Doom dice equal to your proficiency bonus. You can roll one or more of these dice as a reaction when a creature you can see is damaged or rolls a saving throw adding the result to the damage or penalizing the save by the result.

Not sure about this. If omens gain a benefit for not triggering, that benefit has to be *less powerful than the benefit of triggering them, otherwise players will never want to trigger any omens at all. I think this offers too much of a benefit - taking 1d6 or more off a save as a reaction is incredibly powerful, so omens would have to be crazy strong! You'd just choose an omen you thought was impossible and use it to spam a free Heightened Spell every single turn with your reaction.

It also, oddly, incentivises the player to let their omen stack up on a noncombatant, because that lets them enter combat with a number of doom dice equal to their prof bonus.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Not sure about this. If omens gain a benefit for not triggering, that benefit has to be worse than the benefit of triggering them, otherwise players will never want to trigger them at all. I think this offers too much of a benefit - taking 1d6 or more off a save as a reaction is incredibly powerful, so omens would have to be crazy strong! You'd just choose an omen you thought was impossible and use it to spam a free Heightened Spell every single turn with your reaction.

It also, oddly, incentivises the player to let their omen stack up on a noncombatant, because that lets them enter combat with a number of doom dice equal to their prof bonus.

I’ll be honest, I have no idea what the omen mechanic itself is, but I agree there should be a balance, but I disagree emphatically that the alternative to having the mechanic trigger should be worse. Additionally, you can keep the Doom dice thing as is and limit it to so many dice per long rest instead but in that case I’d bump the die to d10.

[luuma]

I disagree emphatically that the alternative to having the mechanic trigger should be worse.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. You think that players should predict an event will occur, and gain a bigger benefit if the omen doesn't get trigger than if it does?

Surely the alternative to having the mechanic trigger has to be worse - if it's better to not have your omen occur, then the best option for this "prophet" class is to predict things incorrectly, which is just an absolutely bizarre design choice that doesn't make any thematic sense at all. If the class is based around prophecy, it should be best when it is prophetic, not worse.


All right, the Punchadin is complete. PEACHes welcome but I probably won't change anything.
Some excellent features in there. Here's a bit of feedback in spite of the white text lmao


I like punching style and holy fist a lot, and I think they’re balanced pretty well. 

Glorious Melee is a really really lovely ability, I’m a huge fan of it. I think it would feel excellent in-game, as it forces all enemies (even the many foes with like 10 to 20 feet of reach) to be in a position where they provoke opportunity attacks from your fists of justice. Simple, elegant, great design.

I would massively, massively recommend making their fists magical at 6th level for all subclasses. You might want to include loot with this class, to make up for the fact they can’t use any magic weapons with any of their punchy features!

Divine Grace gives Too Much Armor! It stacks with shields, and with heavy armor, which This feature essentially grants a +2 flat bonus to AC with no restrictions - which is what shield of faith gives you while requiring concentration! I’d wager that every charisma user would multiclass with this. It just gives them so much armor!

One possible feature to replace it with something much weaker - "When it comes to armor, your "strength of character" is incredibly literal. You can use your Charisma score in place of your Strength score for the purposes of meeting heavy armor requirements." Not that strong, but helps them play dex based builds with that finesse punching style.

And another - which keeps it strong but isn't quite as silly with multiclasses "While you're wearing armor and aren't holding weapons or a shield, you gain a bonus to AC equal to half your Charisma modifier (rounded down)"




Holy Rage - The only way to benefit from this feature is from “the first time you are damaged in combat each round” which means that the DM is the only person who decides when you get it. I think that puts the DM in an odd, awkward spot, so I’d prefer if it was more like the barbarian’s rage? I also think it’s best to give out resources in consistent amounts - never at random. I’d replace Fist of Vengeance with +2 or +3 rage points, instead.




Bane fist:
Extra Hard Knuckles - In 5e, Adamantine is the only material in the game that’s worth choosing. All other materials just do what magic weapons do - but your fists are already magic,so there’s no extra benefit.


Extra Extra hard knuckles - there are like two monsters total that resist/are immune to magic weapons, so I’m afraid this feature does almost nothing except increase nemesis damage.



Silent Fist: 
At 11th level it gives you about 21 bonus damage per turn when you have advantage (or 31 with quick punching style, more than an entire fireball) - and there are lots and lots of ways for your party to give you that advantage with spells. I’d rather this was 2d6 (but only once per turn), increasing to 4d6 at 11th, 5d6 at 15th, and 6d6 at 18th - this effect is pretty strong on a class with extra attack.

[Old Harry MTX]

All right, the Punchadin is complete. PEACHes welcome but I probably won't change anything.

Uff, I'm fully busy on my "Demigod" (on which I will have to ask you for advice in a few days), but as soon as I have time I read it!

[BerzerkerUnit]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. You think that players should predict an event will occur, and gain a bigger benefit if the omen doesn't get trigger than if it does?

Surely the alternative to having the mechanic trigger has to be worse - if it's better to not have your omen occur, then the best option for this "prophet" class is to predict things incorrectly, which is just an absolutely bizarre design choice that doesn't make any thematic sense at all. If the class is based around prophecy, it should be best when it is prophetic, not worse.

Emphasis mine. No? And I'm not sure how you got there. I went on to say there did have to be a balance and I had only provided the example as an example because I didn't know how the actual feature would work.

I disagree that the player should expend a resource and if it didn't pop off exactly as intended the alternative be nothing or a worse effect. Again, I don't know how the intended mechanic would function, but a sorcerer that empowers a spell doesn't risk biffing it and only get to reroll 1 die. (I realize empower provides an inherent risk of "no/worse effect" but that's a statistical edge case and what you stated was hardwiring in a definitely worse benefit.)

As for being "best" when it's prophetic, the majority of fiction (with which I'm familiar) concerning prophecy focuses on how Fate can be averted/the prophecy was misinterpreted. I'm struggling to think of a single story other than maybe the poetic edda RE: Ragnarok and maybe the myth of Cassandra which focused on prophecies that came true as people believed they would. The problem then is Ragnarok is full of animistic metaphor and still hasn't come to pass (I don't recall the sun being swallowed by a wolf) and the whole nature of Cassandra's curse was no one believed her. The Oracle of Greek myth also gave out accurate prophecies, but the reward always came from averting them...

I'd argue that most of today's DnD playing audience is more familiar with Percy Jackson's Olympians than those of Homer and "go to Oracle, make what Oracle says will happen not happen to save the world" is I think the plot of 3/4s of those books.

So, yeah, I'm not sure "be prophet, set destiny" is actually the best core concept for a heroic class vs "be prophet, foretell potential fates so you and heroic allies can avert doom."

Note: none of this is intended to be an upsell on the earlier feature I pitched, since, I reiterate, I don't know how the Omen mechanic was intended to function, never said the failure benefit should outclass the successful one, only that I felt if they're spending a resource, the benefits for success or failure should be balanced.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I disagree that the player should expend a resource and if it didn't pop off exactly as intended the alternative be nothing or a worse effect. Again, I don't know how the intended mechanic would function, but a sorcerer that empowers a spell doesn't risk biffing it and only get to reroll 1 die. (I realize empower provides an inherent risk of "no/worse effect" but that's a statistical edge case and what you stated was hardwiring in a definitely worse benefit.)

...

I mean... Heightened Spell and Seeking Spell metamagics say hello? And that's not even touching the wide array of "save and nothing happens" spells like charm person or banishment. Is it the best design? Maybe, maybe not. It's a matter of "is it worth the potential benefits?"

[BerzerkerUnit]

I mean... Heightened Spell and Seeking Spell metamagics say hello? And that's not even touching the wide array of "save and nothing happens" spells like charm person or banishment. Is it the best design? Maybe, maybe not. It's a matter of "is it worth the potential benefits?"

Both of those metamagics have fixed effects that are exactly as good each time you use them as the last.

Heightened spell inflicts disadvantage on target's save, it does not require the player to make a called shot of some sort and then grant disadvantage but also lower the spell save dc if they or an ally get sloppy. Still disadvantage, just not as good because...

Seeking spell provides a reroll to the spell attack, it doesn't require a called shot of some sort and give the reroll with a -2 penalty to hit if they or an ally gets sloppy. Still another chance to hit, just not as good a chance because...

We can go down the most of the list and the recurring theme will be "you spend points and get a benefit," not "you spend points and maybe get the benefit but maybe get another less valuable one if something doesn't go exactly right." Generally speaking, Sorcery points only ever feel like they're being wasted, but you really have to work to actually waste them. Otherwise, they consistently provide opportunities to deal more damage, affect more targets, or cast more spells.

My reading of the proposed mechanic was "when a 1st level or higher spell is cast" and, perhaps incorrectly, inferred that the Omen feature would be dependent on the NPCs or fellow PCs taking certain actions/succeeding or failing on certain checks. The additional effect was proposed as "something," if it got more developed than that, I didn't read it.
In response I pitched "and if it fails, something else." I wrote up something I felt was interesting enough and mechanically valuable enough to be comparable to whatever effect the original Omen was likely to have but also generic enough that it wouldn't just be the same thing (since I had also Inferred Omens would be varied and specific). if you can only spit out a limited number of Omens, having nothing happen or being dependent on your allies being comfortable with you backseat driving their characters is not the best.

[bandti]

Hey y'all, thinking of joining the contest with this idea: (it's my first time doing one of these).

The Kshatriya. Based on hindu mythology, these warriors tap into the realm of divine magic to empower their own martial abilities. Using special incantations called Astras, they are able to unleash pseudo-spell like abilities and effects. In addition, they also have an Ideal to live up to, much like a paladin's oath. Each of the Ideals will be based off one of the major players of the Mahabharata.

Thoughts?

[luuma]

Hey y'all, thinking of joining the contest with this idea: (it's my first time doing one of these).

The Kshatriya. Based on hindu mythology, these warriors tap into the realm of divine magic to empower their own martial abilities. Using special incantations called Astras, they are able to unleash pseudo-spell like abilities and effects. In addition, they also have an Ideal to live up to, much like a paladin's oath. Each of the Ideals will be based off one of the major players of the Mahabharata.

Thoughts?

Sounds fantastic to me - a real untapped vault of inspiration! I recommend making the class as a spellcaster before replacing the "Spellcasting" with those Astras - it really helps keep track of the class' power level.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Sounds fantastic to me - a real untapped vault of inspiration! I recommend making the class as a spellcaster before replacing the "Spellcasting" with those Astras - it really helps keep track of the class' power level.

I agree it’s a fantastic idea. As for a new subsystem, go for it if you like, but note- classes that introduce entire new subsystems seem to be underrepresented when voting time comes. Probably because of the effort required to properly evaluate a whole new system.

Edit: this Should have been a multiquote.

[Damon_Tor]

Hey y'all, thinking of joining the contest with this idea: (it's my first time doing one of these).

The Kshatriya. Based on hindu mythology, these warriors tap into the realm of divine magic to empower their own martial abilities. Using special incantations called Astras, they are able to unleash pseudo-spell like abilities and effects. In addition, they also have an Ideal to live up to, much like a paladin's oath. Each of the Ideals will be based off one of the major players of the Mahabharata.

Thoughts?

As with any new class, you've got to differentiate it from existing classes, both the mechanics and the concept. Based on your description, this sounds like a paladin subclass to me.

[bandti]

As with any new class, you've got to differentiate it from existing classes, both the mechanics and the concept. Based on your description, this sounds like a paladin subclass to me.

That's a fair assessment. In my mind, Kshatriyas are much more flexible than a Paladin in regards to their Ideals. One thing I was also thinking of was adding a Flaw as well, that a Kshatriya must seek to overcome. For example, let's take a Kshatriya who has the ideal of Truth. The flaw that they must overcome is Naivety.

Another differentiating factor is that the Kshatriya also manipulates divine energy to perform feats of martial strength. What do I mean by that? Well, in the Mahabharata, an example of this would be when Drona, mentor to the Pandavas, throws blades of grass with enough precision and force to pierce a ball and form a chain of grass to pull the ball out of a well.

[bandti]

Sounds fantastic to me - a real untapped vault of inspiration! I recommend making the class as a spellcaster before replacing the "Spellcasting" with those Astras - it really helps keep track of the class' power level.

I was thinking about this as well. I didn't want to add another divine based halfcaster though. Perhaps something like the warlock?

[BerzerkerUnit]

I was thinking about this as well. I didn't want to add another divine based halfcaster though. Perhaps something like the warlock?

I have a very limited points based subsystem I like to use that provides some extreme flexibility but also greatly limiting casting. You’re welcome to use it if it gets you where you want:

In brief-
Max slot level 1/2 level round up (as full caster). But no slots. Spells known or preparation as fits your design.
You get 1 (Arcane/Divine/Primal) Might point per level, when you cast a spell you spend Might points equal to slot level desired to cast.
All might points come back on a short rest. This is functionally similar to warlocks and 4 5th level slots but allows either a few higher level spells to be cast or a lot of lower level spells. It also breaks out of the fixed “max power” format of pact slots allowing you avoid overspending on something like Misty Step (a spell you never want to give up, but always seems like such a waster after level 4).

Keep in mind- I operate on an assumed limit of 2 short rests per day and the assumption you won’t have access to Wish with this (though I honestly don’t think it would be that big a deal at that level as the difference between 1 wish a day and 6 is a lot finer than one would think).

[bandti]

I have a very limited points based subsystem I like to use that provides some extreme flexibility but also greatly limiting casting. You’re welcome to use it if it gets you where you want:

In brief-
Max slot level 1/2 level round up (as full caster). But no slots. Spells known or preparation as fits your design.
You get 1 (Arcane/Divine/Primal) Might point per level, when you cast a spell you spend Might points equal to slot level desired to cast.
All might points come back on a short rest. This is functionally similar to warlocks and 4 5th level slots but allows either a few higher level spells to be cast or a lot of lower level spells. It also breaks out of the fixed “max power” format of pact slots allowing you avoid overspending on something like Misty Step (a spell you never want to give up, but always seems like such a waster after level 4).

Keep in mind- I operate on an assumed limit of 2 short rests per day and the assumption you won’t have access to Wish with this (though I honestly don’t think it would be that big a deal at that level as the difference between 1 wish a day and 6 is a lot finer than one would think).

Ah, I've seen a few classes like that. I might do that.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Forsaken is doneish. I might adjust the Raw Magic Slots to the Arcane Might feature I described above for the Wretched. Feedback appreciated.

I think it’s super tanky, probably too tanky or maybe actually just right.

Core routine is Spite Heaven, attack or dodge and weather hits. Wait for healing magic, then repeat.

Self-5ft AoE Vicious Mockery for the Cursed deals very fun, intended to evoke the idea of a pantheon of gods bickering about how to deal with you, punish those that acknowledge you by paying enough attention to track and further punishing those that try to ignore you and their hate for you.

Might go back to no Armor proficiency and give them unarmored combat at 1, per Barbarian, but that almost feels like they’re then too similar.

As is you take the hits and make up for weaker weapons by making more attacks.

[luuma]

Forsaken is doneish. I might adjust the Raw Magic Slots to the Arcane Might feature I described above for the Wretched. Feedback appreciated.

I think it’s super tanky, probably too tanky or maybe actually just right.

Core routine is Spite Heaven, attack or dodge and weather hits. Wait for healing magic, then repeat.

Self-5ft AoE Vicious Mockery for the Cursed deals very fun, intended to evoke the idea of a pantheon of gods bickering about how to deal with you, punish those that acknowledge you by paying enough attention to track and further punishing those that try to ignore you and their hate for you.

Might go back to no Armor proficiency and give them unarmored combat at 1, per Barbarian, but that almost feels like they’re then too similar.

As is you take the hits and make up for weaker weapons by making more attacks.


Looking really solid, with a lot of well thought-out features. Notes in the spoiler


General:
- I think that the core class should deal more consistent damage per round. It can only access simple weapons, and gains nothing to act as the equivalent of fighting style/sneak attack/rage damage/martial arts. The Wretched and the Cursed are stuck with a single simple weapon attack per turn (with Cursed relying on a risky Wis save to do more). This is a problem throughout its entire level curve - at 3rd it does like 1d8+3 =7.5 per round maximum (while barb does more like 2d6+3+2 =12), at 7th it does 2d8+8=16 (while barb does 4d6+8+4 =26), and at 14th it does about 3d8+15= 28.5 (while barb does 2d12+10+6+ approx 2.6 from brutal critical =31.6, not factoring in its subclass feature - which usually gives it a full free attack as a reaction)

I think Fearsome Rise could fill this gap if it was replaced with a very consistent feature that almost always gets used - e.g "whenever you take damage, you can use your reaction to make a weapon attack against a creature within 5 feet of you. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of this attack".

- The core class has no limited resources until 9th level, which could make each turn a bit samey, because there's not much decisionmaking involved in each turn. This is also sort of true of Barbarian, in most games, because it rarely runs out of rages in most groups' adventuring days. Not a major issue really.

Features

I like the tankiness provided by these starting features a lot, and the 9th level regen is also neatly designed. I've only picked out the ones I saw issue with - but in general, I really like this class.

Divine Ecstasy is especially nicely designed, and I'm a big fan of it.

Spite Heaven A really nice unique core feature - can be exploited by aarakocra but **** aarakocra. This appeals to me a lot.

Fearsome Rise. This should maybe read "whenever you critically succeed on a death saving throw or succeed on a saving throw against a hostile creature's effect, " - you get rewarded for odd nonsense like pouring ball bearings on the ground and running around in them, or drinking a bunch of booze all the time until you have to save against vomiting, or getting caught in your allies' AoEs. (edit: I realise Hear No Evil is designed to exploit this, but I do still think the current wording is a little bit janky)

Divine Secrets is surely a little too exploitable? For example, War Domain's Avatar of Battle feature gives you permanent resistance to blu/sla/pir, while tempest domain gives you semi-permanent flying speed.

Primordial Gibberish should probably specify hostile creatures, because otherwise it's mostly just going to screw over your party. The party almost always casts more than its opponents in combat - so there are very few times when it's good to use this feature in its current state.

Hear No Evil technically always targets you with Vicious Mockery too. I assume this is an intentional method of proccing Fearsome Rise? Seems alright, but it will feel absolutely dreadful whenever it fails its wis save (with no proficiency) against its own solid DC - and that'll happen frequently. Assuming Fearsome Rise is kept the same, I would like it to say "you automatically succeed on your saving throw against the spell" - then it's pretty solid.

I really like What Was, but Aura of Undoing, in its current form, does too much damage to them. Absolutely needs to say "other creatures that start their turn within 10 feet of you...", or "other hostile creatures" and not "creatures". it also destroys all the mundane weaponry, clothing, or shields that they are wearing or carrying unless they end their revelatory form. This feature will be a massive pain in the ass in its current state imo, which, while thematic, is very unfun.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Looking really solid, with a lot of well thought-out features. Notes in the spoiler


General:
- I think that the core class should deal more consistent damage per round. It can only access simple weapons, and gains nothing to act as the equivalent of fighting style/sneak attack/rage damage/martial arts. The Wretched and the Cursed are stuck with a single simple weapon attack per turn (with Cursed relying on a risky Wis save to do more). This is a problem throughout its entire level curve - at 3rd it does like 1d8+3 =7.5 per round maximum (while barb does more like 2d6+3+2 =12), at 7th it does 2d8+8=16 (while barb does 4d6+8+4 =26), and at 14th it does about 3d8+15= 28.5 (while barb does 2d12+10+6+ approx 2.6 from brutal critical =31.6, not factoring in its subclass feature - which usually gives it a full free attack as a reaction)

I think Fearsome Rise could fill this gap if it was replaced with a very consistent feature that almost always gets used - e.g "whenever you take damage, you can use your reaction to make a weapon attack against a creature within 5 feet of you. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of this attack".

- The core class has no limited resources until 9th level, which could make each turn a bit samey, because there's not much decisionmaking involved in each turn. This is also sort of true of Barbarian, in most games, because it rarely runs out of rages in most groups' adventuring days. Not a major issue really.

Features

I like the tankiness provided by these starting features a lot, and the 9th level regen is also neatly designed. I've only picked out the ones I saw issue with - but in general, I really like this class.

Divine Ecstasy is especially nicely designed, and I'm a big fan of it.

Spite Heaven A really nice unique core feature - can be exploited by aarakocra but **** aarakocra. This appeals to me a lot.

Fearsome Rise. This should maybe read "whenever you critically succeed on a death saving throw or succeed on a saving throw against a hostile creature's effect, " - you get rewarded for odd nonsense like pouring ball bearings on the ground and running around in them, or drinking a bunch of booze all the time until you have to save against vomiting, or getting caught in your allies' AoEs. (edit: I realise Hear No Evil is designed to exploit this, but I do still think the current wording is a little bit janky)

Divine Secrets is surely a little too exploitable? For example, War Domain's Avatar of Battle feature gives you permanent resistance to blu/sla/pir, while tempest domain gives you semi-permanent flying speed.

Primordial Gibberish should probably specify hostile creatures, because otherwise it's mostly just going to screw over your party. The party almost always casts more than its opponents in combat - so there are very few times when it's good to use this feature in its current state.

Hear No Evil technically always targets you with Vicious Mockery too. I assume this is an intentional method of proccing Fearsome Rise? Seems alright, but it will feel absolutely dreadful whenever it fails its wis save (with no proficiency) against its own solid DC - and that'll happen frequently. Assuming Fearsome Rise is kept the same, I would like it to say "you automatically succeed on your saving throw against the spell" - then it's pretty solid.

I really like What Was, but Aura of Undoing, in its current form, does too much damage to them. Absolutely needs to say "other creatures that start their turn within 10 feet of you...", or "other hostile creatures" and not "creatures". it also destroys all the mundane weaponry, clothing, or shields that they are wearing or carrying unless they end their revelatory form. This feature will be a massive pain in the ass in its current state imo, which, while thematic, is very unfun.



Thank you so much for the feedback!

Core class:
Massive derp if I forgot to give them extra attack at 5th. Thanks for the heads up.

DPR- I think I figured Fearsome Rise’s reaction attack whenever you succeed on a save would be consistent enough in conjunction with opportunity attacks that it provided a boost like hunter’s mark/hex. I always felt like I was making and succeeding on a lot of saves as a Barbarian. Maybe I’ll add Proficiency bonus to damage on this and AoO. Weapon Proficiency accounts for fairly little shift in DPR (excluding GWM), and races, feats, and MC can get you martial weapons if you feel you need them. This class gets extra feats akin to a fighter.

Fearsome Rise-I’ll revisit the language so it’s “When you succeed on a saving throw another creature forces you to make...” That should eliminate most cheese problems, but I do want it to remain melee or ranged.

Divine Ecstasy- hardest part was picking a name but I am excited to see how it fairs in play.

The Wretched-
Divine Secrets was only intended to access the 1st level domain features, so Either nab a Heavy Armor proficiency, some extra skills, or another unique thing like the light domain flash or Trickery Domain blessing for rogue skills. Definitely Needs a rewrite if it reads you can take capstones.

Primordial Gibberish, I don’t want it to discriminate, I’ll look at reducing the range to 10 feet and add “minimum 1d4” for Cantrips that kablooey.

The Cursed
Hear No Evil, Vicious Mockery is an AoE like Thunderclap, it isn’t intended to target themselves, I’ll revisit the wording there. The weak damage is intended to be offset by the fact you’re potentially countering the advantage you might give several foes with Spite Heaven.

What Was
Aura of Undoing- I’ll revisit the language, it isn’t intended to damage the PC themself. It is supposed to be indiscriminate, the kind of thing you only use if you’re sure everything in the room must die and you’re confident you’ll have the opportunity to dismiss and recover your form. It should also read “other creatures that enter the aura or start their turn there.”

Thank you again for the help!

[luuma]

Thank you so much for the feedback!

Core class:
Massive derp if I forgot to give them extra attack at 5th. Thanks for the heads up.

-snip-


No worries - I factored in extra attack in those damage calcs! However, I definitely assumed that the 3rd level feature wouldn't trigger particularly often, and I think that's probably inaccurate- it's fair to assume it'll trigger usefully at least once every 3 turns. I do think it'd be worth making it very clear and consistent, just in case, but the core class' damage is probably at least:
3rd) 1d8+3 * 1.33 =10 per round (while core barb does more like 2d6+3+2 =12)
7th) 2d8+10 * 1.33=25.33 (while core barb does 4d6+8+4 =26)
14th) 3d8+15= 28.5 (while core barb does 2d12+10+6+ 2.6 brutal critical =31.6)
I didn't factor in the extra ASI originally - and now that I do, its balance looks very solid. Barbarian does get to gain advantage on all attacks, but the benefit of Spite Heaven should easily make up for that.

If the AoE Vicious Mockery isn't intended to proc the 3rd level feature, I definitely think that it should get some more damage! Perhaps it could let them make a weapon attack of some kind as a bonus action, or could be done as a bonus action a number of times per long rest equal to prof bonus?

I've found that vicious mockery needs a lot of buffs before it stops feeling dreadful - especially when compared with extra attack. It's true that the disadvantage is useful, but statistically it only causes the roll to miss roughly a quarter of the time, so it's extremely rare that a creature will fail the save and also miss. In all other occasions, it feels like you're doing uncertain chip damage for no benefit.

[BerzerkerUnit]

No worries - I factored in extra attack in those damage calcs! However, I definitely assumed that the 3rd level feature wouldn't trigger particularly often, and I think that's probably inaccurate- it's fair to assume it'll trigger usefully at least once every 3 turns. I do think it'd be worth making it very clear and consistent, just in case, but the core class' damage is probably at least:
3rd) 1d8+3 * 1.33 =10 per round (while core barb does more like 2d6+3+2 =12)
7th) 2d8+10 * 1.33=25.33 (while core barb does 4d6+8+4 =26)
14th) 3d8+15= 28.5 (while core barb does 2d12+10+6+ 2.6 brutal critical =31.6)
I didn't factor in the extra ASI originally - and now that I do, its balance looks very solid. Barbarian does get to gain advantage on all attacks, but the benefit of Spite Heaven should easily make up for that.

If the AoE Vicious Mockery isn't intended to proc the 3rd level feature, I definitely think that it should get some more damage! Perhaps it could let them make a weapon attack of some kind as a bonus action, or could be done as a bonus action a number of times per long rest equal to prof bonus?

I've found that vicious mockery needs a lot of buffs before it stops feeling dreadful - especially when compared with extra attack. It's true that the disadvantage is useful, but statistically it only causes the roll to miss roughly a quarter of the time, so it's extremely rare that a creature will fail the save and also miss. In all other occasions, it feels like you're doing uncertain chip damage for no benefit.

Yeah, I’m rethinking VM now as I compare it to just dodging. Bonus action casting seems nice but then it competes with Spite Heaven.

I’m actually going to change Aura of Undoing to a bonus action and 1rd duration. That makes it a choice (stickiness or dmg).

[Old Harry MTX]

Hi Guys!
I inform you that the Demigod (Part 1 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25135930&postcount=10) and Part 2 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25135932&postcount=11))has reached the Alpha stage! It certainly needs a lot of changes, and at the moment only 3 out of 5 subclasses have been defined, but if you feel like giving it a look I will take advantage of any advice and opinions!

For ease of reading, I added some notes in BLUE, while in those points where I am undecided between two solutions I have reported both of them in RED.

I'll give you a little introduction to the class:

The class is inspired by the heroes of classical mythology, who often descended from the gods themselves and were, in fact, demigods (And no, it has nothing to do with the ranger subclass I made time ago called Sidekick which was inspired by Iolaus from the old Hercules TV series). I tried to diversify it as far as possible to cover various "divine archetypes" among the most classic (god of war, abundance, wisdom, death and seas).

The basic mechanic of the class is inspired by the Labors of Hercules, and is a bit... strange.

It requires the participation of the DM, who assigns the player a task, evaluates when this task has been completed, and rewards it by choosing from a list of "gifts". It works a bit like a forced loot, rather than a normal feature. I have not added conditions in case the player fails to complete the task, because ideally it cannot do it. If the character does not die, eventually it will be able to prove its worth.

The "gifts" are not real items, but skills that scale according to the level of the character. Each of them is inspired by a mythological object.


Speaking of which, I would greatly appreciate your help in developing the Cornucopia, Pandora's Box and Horn of the Argo!

For the rest, the base class is quite "bland" and generic (I would also listen to any advice to define the level 20th feature!), to leave as much space as possible for subclasses. Personally, I don't really like creating subclasses, but this time I really indulged myself, trying to create a different and characteristic mechanic for each of them.

The Martial is inspired by the God of War, therefore, I tried to create a mechanic that combines what are for me the two main archetypes of a warrior: The Barbarian and the Battlemaster. I like the result very much, but I have to find a way to limit it in case of multiclass.

The Charontian is inspired by the God of Death. It has the Artificer's spell progression, and access to necromancy spells only. It also has a Metamagic-like mechanic that uses Hit Dice.

The Minervan is descended from the God of Knowledge and Magic. So I tried to develop this concept: "unlimited access to all knowledge". Hence the ability to learn any cantrip and spell, to cast any ritual, and to learn temporary the spells that are used against it.

At the time of writing this post the subclasses of the Baccanal and the Thalassian are still to be defined. The former is inspired by the God of Parties and Celebrations, and should brew potions and cast spells to buff allies, and charm or confuse enemies. The latter is inspired by the God of the Seas. It is the last one that I intend to develop, since I do not have very clear ideas about it. Broadly speaking, I would like it to be able to summon sea monsters, in a similar way to the ranger's companion, perhaps choosing them from all the sea beasts to which then apply a sort of "humanoid archetype" similar to that of the 3rd edition of D&D.

[Old Harry MTX]

Guys, I exceeded the character limit, I have to split the demigod over two posts...

[MoleMage]

It happens. I had to put the Theurge in 3 separate posts way back in Remix Mastery. Usually we get around one class per contest that has to be split.

In other news I'm mid-move. I wrote the core features for the Prophet but I haven't gotten to writing the Omens or subclasses yet. I should be settled in at my new place with plenty of time to wrap up before the end of the contest but I'll be sparse for a couple weeks.

[sengmeng]

Okay I was happy with the Punchadin before, but I revised it a little and added a subclass for fallen Punchadins, similar to the 3.5 Blackguard and the Oathbreaker paladin from the DMG, and now I'm REALLY happy with it. If I find time to do reviews for other entries, I'll edit this post and add them.

Edit: Review

I really like this idea and lore. Very hard to get into the mood to properly review it after working on my joke entry though. That's not your fault, of course. Unfortunately, I'm a bit confused as there are some unclear portions, and I'm not aware of any of the races or the custom lineage rules you reference. If that's a work in progress, I'll come back to it. I don't have a lot of specific gripes, but the twentieth level ability seems weaker than the 18th level abilities of the subclasses, especially the cursed subclass'. What Was is my favorite subclass and I don't want you to change any part of it. It's awesome.

[luuma]

The Godslayer (https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-MdsrUcgqtw0EyO0vQxD) v1.0 is finished and ready for feedback, critique, theorycrafting, and PEACH (whatever that stands for!)

Will be back tomorrow to edit this post with any more feedback

Overall I'm happy with it - I like to keep the core class simplistic and flavourless, and really throw the unique stuff into the subclasses. In this case, the subclasses are all based round killing specific cleric domains, and they follow a bit of a pattern, which I am happy to alter:
1: expanded spells/ribbon or noncombat benefit/double edged sword feature
3: combat feature (by this point they often have a way to use bonus action)
7: generally a defensive boon
15: simple capstone (not happy with the trickery opposed one)

I like the unique double edged sword features a lot. Two of the subclasses have these toggle features that provide them with a few boosts at the cost of one major disadvantage - situationally excellent, but not entirely without cost, because it takes an action to switch back. Let me know whether this seems like a bad move, though, because I'm well aware that this sort of feature is generally avoided - I just think it's thematically fitting for a class cause I'm sort of trying to theme it around sacrificing one thing to gain another, a la WoW demon hunter or blood hunter.

I've been a bit hasty and haven't read through this thread's back catalogs - if you see some duplicate features from some previous class design contest, that's not intentional, I just thought it was new! Let me know if you do and I'll replace where poss :))

The main question I have for you guys is: ritual caster or no? The class seems solid, but I'd like it to have a bit more noncombat stuff. It's looking somewhat frontloaded, though, so I'm a bit wary






Edit:
Demigod
I'm pretty sure that the Demigod is too strong, right? As a general rule of thumb, a full caster does not gain any class features at odd numbered levels beyond 1st and 3rd.

A full caster gets boons at 1st and 3rd level, at all even numbered levels, and also from a single separate scaling feature that increases each time they level (e.g druid subclass feature, sorcery points, bard inspo/song of rest, arcane recovery, turn/destroy undead, eldritch invo). This is why virtually all their subclass boons come at even numbers.

Meanwhile, for example, the charontian lineage gets benefits at every level on top of being a full caster. There's no two ways about it: that's OP!

Charontian lineage might be evaluated as a full sorcerer, with a subclass that grants it (1st) unarmored defense, (6th) a free buffed up find steed, (14th)... divine intervention, and an even more buffed up find steed, and (18th) a nice aegis of the gods. Sounds like a reasonable sorcerer subclass, right?

Except that the charontian also gets a bunch of extra boons at 5th (extra attack and charisma advantage) 7th (occasional free 4th level spells), 9th (essentially permanent death ward), 13th (aegises of the gods, 15th (otherworldy might), and 17th (+1 to some metamagics), while the sorc gets nothing at those points. You need to nerf this my guy!

[BerzerkerUnit]

Tweaked the Forsaken, probably done unless someone can see some obvious conflict. I think there's a very unique play experience to be had there. Similar to Barbarian in some obvious ways but with a wildly different strategy underlying its mechanics making it markedly more party friendly and dependent.

Not sure if Spite Heaven should be limited use. It's intended to be your default tanking mechanic with the basic gameplay loop- Spite, Attack, get hit, get healed, gain resistance, Spite, Attack... etc. But all the similar "taunts" except maybe cavalier marking are limited and cavalier is limited to creature's hit... Admittedly, granting advantage to all your foes in range is a big downside.

Wretched- puzzled out the spell slot progression I want. I figure a 5th level spell as a capstone at 20 is alright since you're limited to Druid and Cleric lists. Maybe a domain spell. Also touched up the language for the level 7 so it's clear you can only access level 1 domain features (like disciple of life or the War domain bonus attacks).

Cursed- 1st level feature got tweaked to punishing creatures that spot you while sneaking (note: does nothing if you fail to sneak).

What Was- Changed Aura of Undoing to make it more party friendly and a round to round choice between it and the bonus action attack from Revelatory form or Spite Heaven feature. Tuned up Mad Mirth so it's damage and short term frighten with a paralysis on Celestials, Fey, and Fiends.

[Old Harry MTX]

The Demigod is finally in Beta. All the mechanics are defined, I would say that from now on the only changes I will make will be balance related.

ChangeLog:

Added Pandora's Box and Cornucopia to gifts obtainable from the Hero's Labor feature.
Defined the 20th level feature, called Panoply, that gives you temporary access to all the gifts from the Hero's Labor feature.
Replaced the Vancian Spell Slot system of the Caronthian lineage with a Spell Point system up do 5th level spells.
Added the Baccanal lineage, with the ability to cast healing, support and charm spells (I tried not to use the Spell Slot system also in this subclass, but dice in hand the Vancian system is just too good...) and to distill some of these spells into potions.
Added the Thalassian lineage, with the ability to summon a sea monster that becomes a kind of Kaiju as you gain new levels.
Minor fixes to Martial and Minervan lineages.

[Old Harry MTX]

Ok guys, I took a look at the finished works, to date. I have compiled a list of considerations. I want to say right away that if it seems to you that I have used an aggressive tone in these notes, it is only because I have written them down quickly. They all seem interesting works to me.

The Forsaken
1st Existential Denial: ok, a lot of levels, nice.
1st Divine Ecstasy: interesting
1st Unwelcome Beyond: utility and themed.
2nd Resilience of the Forsaken: ok.
2nd Spite Heaven: strong, but should be ok.
3rd Fearsome Rise: interesting.
5th Extra Attack: mandatory.
9th Limited Regeneration: nice. The fact that it uses the proficiency bonus may be too tempting for multiclasing, but at 9th level it should go.
11th Welcome Nowhere: ok, maybe at 11th level you would expect a more incisive capstone, maybe you could swap the features at 9th and 11th, or at 13th and 11th?
13th Thirst for Revenge: ok. At this level i don't see problem with multiclassing.
17th Legendary Opportunist: nice, like the samurai if i remember well.
20th Godblight: ok


Archetype - The Wretched
1st Bonus Proficiencies: ok.
1st Born of Thought: ok.
1st Raw Magic: ok.
7th Divine Secrets: ok, i guess. Need to figure out some scenarios.
10th Primordial Gibberish: am I missing something or does it not have a limit of uses?
15th Destructive Raw Magic: it seems to me a bit late to introduce such a mechanic out of the blue at such higher level, especially considering that Eldritch Blast naturally scales with character level like many other cantrips.
18th Absolute Dysjunction: the "dispel spell" part is maybe too strong, the "item" part is situational but ok, i guess.

Archetype - Cursed
1st Hear No Evil: ok. This 1st level seems a bit unloaded compared to the one of the Wretched.
7th See No Evil: strong but ok.
10th Speak No Evil: mmm, it seems to me very strong, maybe add a limited number of uses?
15th Shared Pain: again, it seems to me very strong, but at least it have a limited number of uses.
18th Celestial Balance: again, very strong. You must burn your reaction so you can do that only once per round, but still... Maybe you could add a progressive number of charges to this subclass and use them to fuel all this features?

Archetype - What Was
1st Revelatory Form: ok, you became a sort of weremonk!
7th Warped Anatomy: I guess at 18th level is equivalent to casting yourself twice enlarge/reduce, right? so basically you get a bonus or a malus of 2d4 instead of 1d4.
10th Warped Logic: ok. maybe complete immunity is a bit strong, but also giving only advantage on saving throws to resist those conditions is maybe a little bit low, so I'd say it's okay
15th Aura of Undoing: ok.
18th Mad Mirth: mmm, maybe adding your own level to damage is a little superfluous at 18th level, maybe I would go with a classic +20, or add dice accordingly. It is not clear to me how you recover the use of this feature. When you are in the Revelatory Form can you also exit it, or do you have to wait for the time to run out? So can you use this feature every short rest or much more often? in the first case it seems strong to me, in the second it seems definitely broken.

Godslayer
1st Opposed Domain: i like the mechanic that makes you choose a cleric domain as the opposite subclass.
1st Track the Faithful: nice, situational.
2nd Defiant Strike: good, I like these alternative versions of sneak attack, excellent limit to once per turn. It should be specified that Defiant Strike cannot be used with cantrips, which you can still obtain by multiclassing or with talents, or that once per turn you must first designate an attack roll, and if it hits you can apply Defiant Strike.
5th Indefatigable: nice idea, the fact that you can only use it in your turn scales it down a lot. Maybe I would have preferred it not related to Defiant Strike dice, more like Indomitable.
6th Adamant Assault: ok.
14th Track The Divine: strong utility, nice.
18th Overwhelming Odds: ok, i guess.
20th Godslayer: a one trick feature, it's more storydriven than functional. I like it, but from a certain point of view, it's like having nothing at the 20th level.


Opposed Domain: I understand your doubts but personally I don't mind the features with drawbacks.

Opposed Domain - Trickery
1st Unveil Truth: ok.
1st Eye for An Eye: ok.
3rd Stalking Brand: nice.
7th Flash of Foresight: utility.
15th Dispelling Strike: utility.

Opposed Domain - Light
1st Hunter in the Night: it seems to me a little too much drawback and too little benefit, it might be hard to pass the first level until you get at least fog cloud, maybe add the possibility of hiding with a bonus action?
1st Bonus Cantrips: ok.
3rd Nyctophobia: strong, but it should be ok.
7th Shadow Shield: ok.
15th Smoke Bomb: nice.

Opposed Domain - Death
1st Inferno of Vengeance: another one trick feature, at least at low levels. Interesting but I don't consider it a real feature.
1st Zealous Lifeline: strong but ok.
3rd Blinding Retort: mmm, I can't gauge how strong it is, blind is a strong condition IMHO. At least, the damage doesn't scale.
7th Death Defiance: nice utility.
15th Improved Indefatigability: mmm, you can add 7d6 (24.5) on a saving throw, three time per day, but only on your turn. It's probably better than indomitable, but still, the fact that you can do that on your turn should balance it. Probably need some test!

Punchadin - ok, i have to admit, i'm not a huge fan of joking concepts like this one. Anyway, even if I don't see much the theme of the contest, this seems nice.
1st Holy Fist: ok.
1st Divine Grace: ok.
1st Code of Conduct: flavor.
2nd Punching Style: ok.
2nd Holy Rage: ok, this is similar to mine Battle Fury, i like features that warmups during battle. Seems nice.
3rd Sworn Fist: ok, a lot of levels, nice.
5th Extra Attack: mandatory.
6th Glorious Melee: hum, i suppose all the attacks against you, right?
9th Fist of Vengeance: ok
13th Punching Style Improvement: ok.
17th Fist of Wrath: ok, i guess...
20th Fist of Judgment: a nice finisher.


Sworn Fist - Bane Fist
3rd Nemesis: ok. Is the only way you have to treat your fists as magic?
3rd (i guess) Bane Sense: utility + flavour.
7th Extra Hard Knuckles: ok.
11th Hate Fist: ok.
11th Bane Sense Improvement: ok.
15th Armor of Emnity: with natural attacks you mean attacks made with natural weapons?
18th So Much Hate: ok.

Sworn Fist - Fist of Glory
3rd Aggression: ok.
3rd Holy Burst: generally I don't mind features that have drawbacks, but this one seems a bit forced... Also, you can apply it to all attacks you make?
7th Leap Attack: ok.
7th All or Nothing: mmm, it would be better if this feature allows you to decide at least after you have seen the result of the attack roll. Just as it is if you don't have the Quick style you risk wasting the only attack you have in the turn. I know the feature is called All or Nothing, but still...
11th Shockwave: ok.
15th Momentum: ok.
18th Fist of Awesomeness: standard improvement.

Sworn Fist - Silent Fist: nothing to say here.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Ok guys, I took a look at the finished works, to date. I have compiled a list of considerations. I want to say right away that if it seems to you that I have used an aggressive tone in these notes, it is only because I have written them down quickly. They all seem interesting works to me.

The Forsaken
1st Existential Denial: ok, a lot of levels, nice.
1st Divine Ecstasy: interesting
1st Unwelcome Beyond: utility and themed.
2nd Resilience of the Forsaken: ok.
2nd Spite Heaven: strong, but should be ok.
3rd Fearsome Rise: interesting.
5th Extra Attack: mandatory.
9th Limited Regeneration: nice. The fact that it uses the proficiency bonus may be too tempting for multiclasing, but at 9th level it should go.
11th Welcome Nowhere: ok, maybe at 11th level you would expect a more incisive capstone, maybe you could swap the features at 9th and 11th, or at 13th and 11th?
13th Thirst for Revenge: ok. At this level i don't see problem with multiclassing.
17th Legendary Opportunist: nice, like the samurai if i remember well.
20th Godblight: ok


Archetype - The Wretched
1st Bonus Proficiencies: ok.
1st Born of Thought: ok.
1st Raw Magic: ok.
7th Divine Secrets: ok, i guess. Need to figure out some scenarios.
10th Primordial Gibberish: am I missing something or does it not have a limit of uses?
15th Destructive Raw Magic: it seems to me a bit late to introduce such a mechanic out of the blue at such higher level, especially considering that Eldritch Blast naturally scales with character level like many other cantrips.
18th Absolute Dysjunction: the "dispel spell" part is maybe too strong, the "item" part is situational but ok, i guess.

Archetype - Cursed
1st Hear No Evil: ok. This 1st level seems a bit unloaded compared to the one of the Wretched.
7th See No Evil: strong but ok.
10th Speak No Evil: mmm, it seems to me very strong, maybe add a limited number of uses?
15th Shared Pain: again, it seems to me very strong, but at least it have a limited number of uses.
18th Celestial Balance: again, very strong. You must burn your reaction so you can do that only once per round, but still... Maybe you could add a progressive number of charges to this subclass and use them to fuel all this features?

Archetype - What Was
1st Revelatory Form: ok, you became a sort of weremonk!
7th Warped Anatomy: I guess at 18th level is equivalent to casting yourself twice enlarge/reduce, right? so basically you get a bonus or a malus of 2d4 instead of 1d4.
10th Warped Logic: ok. maybe complete immunity is a bit strong, but also giving only advantage on saving throws to resist those conditions is maybe a little bit low, so I'd say it's okay
15th Aura of Undoing: ok.
18th Mad Mirth: mmm, maybe adding your own level to damage is a little superfluous at 18th level, maybe I would go with a classic +20, or add dice accordingly. It is not clear to me how you recover the use of this feature. When you are in the Revelatory Form can you also exit it, or do you have to wait for the time to run out? So can you use this feature every short rest or much more often? in the first case it seems strong to me, in the second it seems definitely broken.

[/SPOILER]

Thanks so much for your feedback!

1st some design rationale. At levels 1-3 this class has a basic action loop of "move to place that will force enemies to provoke AoOs, Action attack before/during/after movement, Bonus Action Spite Heaven to taunt enemies." Enemies that ignore you take an automatic nerf and minor damage. You hope to make a saving throw so you can trigger Fearsome Rise for the extra attack and hope an ally tosses a healing word on you.

Every subclass presents options to do something else with your bonus action, reaction, or provides another means to nerf foes. Some of these options are fairly strong bc they compete with a core feature that brings a lot of the class' noise- Spite Heaven.

I'm not clear on why you refer to a level 11 ability as a capstone. Is it bc most games seem to end ~10-13 or something else?

Wretched-
Primordial Gibberish does not have a limit to use other than friendly fire and it competes with your default bonus action, a taunt.
Destructive Raw Magic comes where it does bc I preferred that progression of power conceptually to 1 level of a d12 hit die class with Eldritch Blast and a quasi smite on it.

Cursed-
Expertise is typically hard to come by on a tank. Feats are expensive, multiclassing is expensive. Hear no evil is expertise and a punishment for enemies that spoil a surprise round. It's also amazing with 2 levels of rogue, but I don't design with MC in mind.
Advantage on saves is late to the game at level 10 and Speak no Evil reaction competes with Fearsome Rise, an important source of off turn damage.
HAH! Celestial Balance was supposed to be a 1/day. HP 1 shouldn't be within spitting distance of immortality.

What Was-
Revelatory Form does grant some unarmed combat options.
Revelatory Form says you can dismiss it as an action and you get 2 uses/short rest like Wildshape. That means you can use Mad Mirth 2/Short rest as well.
Warped Anatomy- While it does allow you to become huge at 18th that doesn't actually increase the damage bonus provided by Enlarge.
Mad Mirth is based on the Light Domain channel divinity but hugely scaled up due to level difference. Add level to damage is pretty standard, seen in a variety of features:
Zealot Barbarian rage
Light domain
Aasimar transformations
etc.
At 20th level it would be a flat +20 damage as well.

Thank you again for all your feedback!

[Old Harry MTX]

I'm not clear on why you refer to a level 11 ability as a capstone. Is it bc most games seem to end ~10-13 or something else?

Maybe capstone is not the right term. I am referring to the fact that the 5th, 11th and 17th are considered levels in which you enter a new tier, and generally have more incisive features than the others. You get Extra Attacks, new spell levels, Relentless Rage, Improved Smite, more uses of Indomitable and Action Surge, etc.

This is not a mandatory rule, but since your class have strongest features just at adjacent levels, it would be natural to swap them.


Mad Mirth is based on the Light Domain channel divinity but hugely scaled up due to level difference. Add level to damage is pretty standard, seen in a variety of features:
Zealot Barbarian rage
Light domain
Aasimar transformations
etc.
At 20th level it would be a flat +20 damage as well.

Of course, I am not referring to the fact that it is strange to see damage dependent on the number of levels, but to the fact that introducing it at 18th level makes little sense. Those features are introduced at low levels and have the characteristic of scaling linearly according to the levels, but if you are already at the 18th, it is practically a fixed value. Mechanically there is nothing wrong with it, it's just aesthetically ugly ^^

[luuma]

Cheers for the feedback Harry - still hoping you nerf your class at some point, cause there's some interesting ideas there, but it reads like gestalt!

Have added some more design notes to godslayer, and have responses below lol


Godslayer
1st Opposed Domain: i like the mechanic that makes you choose a cleric domain as the opposite subclass.
1st Track the Faithful: nice, situational.
2nd Defiant Strike: good, I like these alternative versions of sneak attack, excellent limit to once per turn. It should be specified that Defiant Strike cannot be used with cantrips, which you can still obtain by multiclassing or with talents, or that once per turn you must first designate an attack roll, and if it hits you can apply Defiant Strike.



I don't think it needs that limit, you can't do anything overpowered with any of the cantrips that use spell attacks. All spell attacks target a single creature, and the feature only be used during your turn, so you can only do it once per round. As far as I can tell from the damage calcs, it doesn't need any sort of nerf - let alone a nerf as severe as designating the attack before it hits!


5th Indefatigable: nice idea, the fact that you can only use it in your turn scales it down a lot. Maybe I would have preferred it not related to Defiant Strike dice, more like Indomitable.

I might change it to a flat +10 but I quite like the scaling. It's basically just emulating legendary resistances, but uses dice because It'll be more fun to make a gigantic number than to automatically succeed.




6th Adamant Assault: ok.
14th Track The Divine: strong utility, nice.
18th Overwhelming Odds: ok, i guess.
20th Godslayer: a one trick feature, it's more storydriven than functional. I like it, but from a certain point of view, it's like having nothing at the 20th level.

20th level also gives them +1d6 defiant strike, so they'll be happy enough with that. The god-killing feature's absolutely intended to be storydriven. Glad you don't think it's too game-warping.



Opposed Domain: I understand your doubts but personally I don't mind the features with drawbacks.

Opposed Domain - Trickery
[LIST] 1st Unveil Truth: ok.
1st Eye for An Eye: ok.
3rd Stalking Brand: nice.
7th Flash of Foresight: utility.
15th Dispelling Strike: utility.

Opposed Domain - Light
1st Hunter in the Night: it seems to me a little too much drawback and too little benefit, it might be hard to pass the first level until you get at least fog cloud, maybe add the possibility of hiding with a bonus action?
1st Bonus Cantrips: ok.
3rd Nyctophobia: strong, but it should be ok.
7th Shadow Shield: ok.
15th Smoke Bomb: nice.

I feel like you didn't like trickery domain that much - it's largely aiming to appeal to people who like noncombat utility and mystery solving, so I made most of its features focus on noncombat. I've now changed dispelling strike so that it's more generic and better in combat, so hopefully that's more to your taste.

I reckon it should be fine at 1st level, because it still just gets free benefits at night and in buildings, and can toggle it off at all other times. I like the idea of giving it the ability to hide as a bonus action, but I don't think it's necessary - you can already get advantage from fog cloud etc.



Opposed Domain - Death
1st Inferno of Vengeance: another one trick feature, at least at low levels. Interesting but I don't consider it a real feature.
1st Zealous Lifeline: strong but ok.
3rd Blinding Retort: mmm, I can't gauge how strong it is, blind is a strong condition IMHO. At least, the damage doesn't scale.
7th Death Defiance: nice utility.
15th Improved Indefatigability: mmm, you can add 7d6 (24.5) on a saving throw, three time per day, but only on your turn. It's probably better than indomitable, but still, the fact that you can do that on your turn should balance it. Probably need some test![/INDENT]


Yeah, I'm not factoring in inferno of vengeance as a real feature, it's just a nice fancy ribbon for dramatic death scenes. This is made up for bt zealous lifeline/blinding retort.

Agree that the blinding is strong, but hopefully it should be fine due to its limited range (5ft radius now) and the fact you have to take damage to use it. The spell list is more focused on avoiding damage than tanking damage, and the class has a d8 die, so it won't be able to stand in melee and use this feature much before it starts dying. It's good for running away, though. If others agree that this is too strong, I will probably tie it to Adamant Assault so that you can't use it to disengage.

15th seems fine to me, it's only giving you one additional use on top of the two you have at 10th. Overall you're losing 3 levels for a fancy legendary resistance - not too strong.

[Old Harry MTX]

Cheers for the feedback Harry - still hoping you nerf your class at some point, cause there's some interesting ideas there, but it reads like gestalt!

I don't think I will nerf it that much, in fact, when I ran the math, I found out that it isn't OP as I tought. I even fixed the action economy of the Thalassian! This lineage always remains very strong, but at least now it's not like playing with two characters at the same time...

It remains a class with many options, but once chosen (and some of these choices are made by the DM and not by you...), what remains should never reach the hyperuranium.

However, I wouldn't mind having a more accurate and punctual opinion from you, in the end, I like to participate in these contests more to chat and exchange ideas than for anything else!


I don't think it needs that limit, you can't do anything overpowered with any of the cantrips that use spell attacks. All spell attacks target a single creature, and the feature only be used during your turn, so you can only do it once per round. As far as I can tell from the damage calcs, it doesn't need any sort of nerf - let alone a nerf as severe as designating the attack before it hits!

Probably yes, but if you compare it to a Sneak Attack, you see that with a cantrip you can not only do many attacks in one turn (at high levels), but you don't even need these attacks to be with advantage. Simply put, the odds of doing a Defiant Strike are much higher than a Sneak Attack. I don't think this is offset by the lower damage bonus. If you want to give it a different feel, more like a Divine Smite than a Sneak Attack, you should add a cost of some kind. Or alternatively create a middle ground between the two.


I might change it to a flat +10 but I quite like the scaling. It's basically just emulating legendary resistances, but uses dice because It'll be more fun to make a gigantic number than to automatically succeed.

I would probably change it with a + half your godslayer level, but probably it's a matter of taste. I admit I'm not a big fan of fistfulls of dice.


20th level also gives them +1d6 defiant strike, so they'll be happy enough with that. The god-killing feature's absolutely intended to be storydriven. Glad you don't think it's too game-warping.

Naaa, a good DM that allows the use of your class should consider it as a part of the story.


I feel like you didn't like trickery domain that much - it's largely aiming to appeal to people who like noncombat utility and mystery solving, so I made most of its features focus on noncombat. I've now changed dispelling strike so that it's more generic and better in combat, so hopefully that's more to your taste.

Hum, I actually prefer these kind of classes, all my games are more focused on investigation, role play and social than combat, that's why I don't have too much to say. ^^


Agree that the blinding is strong, but hopefully it should be fine due to its limited range (5ft radius now) and the fact you have to take damage to use it. The spell list is more focused on avoiding damage than tanking damage, and the class has a d8 die, so it won't be able to stand in melee and use this feature much before it starts dying. It's good for running away, though. If others agree that this is too strong, I will probably tie it to Adamant Assault so that you can't use it to disengage.

Should be fine that way.

[luuma]

I don't think I will nerf it that much, in fact, when I ran the math, I found out that it isn't OP as I tought. I even fixed the action economy of the Thalassian! This lineage always remains very strong, but at least now it's not like playing with two characters at the same time...

It remains a class with many options, but once chosen (and some of these choices are made by the DM and not by you...), what remains should never reach the hyperuranium.

However, I wouldn't mind having a more accurate and punctual opinion from you, in the end, I like to participate in these contests more to chat and exchange ideas than for anything else!


Hopefully I've justified this opinion a bit better in an earlier post, but I'll repeat it here - generally in 5e, full casters do not gain features at 5th/7th/9th/11th/13th/15th/17th. Heck, even half casters skip levels 9/13/17.
However, all the lineages with full casting get features at every single one of these levels, and that seems too strong.

Naturally though, your martial lineages have the right power levels. I can also see that you've tried to limit the thalassian domain's action economy - I think its core feature is alright, thanks to the lack of extra attack. But it's still extremely strong, though, because cr 4 to 6 beasts can do like 22 to 40 damage with their action, and it can still command them with a bonus action at high levels. Yet another victim of warlock eldritch blast dips lmao




On that subject, I don't think there's too much a problem with the godslayer proccing divine strike once per turn when spamming eldritch blast. The godslayer can only use divine strike on stuff within 10 feet of it, which makes it hard to use EB without suffering disadvantage. Even when it hits its powerspike at 11th level, a warlock 2/godslayer 9 only does (3d10+3x cha+3d6 ==)27+3x cha. This is hardly any more than an arcane trickster with a scag cantrip, which does (6d6 +2d8+ rapier 1d8+dex + possible 3d8) = 34.5+dex+possible 3d8. The consistency is nice, yes, but in my experience, rogue seldom misses out on its sneak attack damage anyway.

It's strong, but I think it makes thematic sense for a Godslayer to multiclass well with Warlock, so I'm fairly happy to leave it as-is

[SleeplessWriter]

Alright, the Mutant is up! I admit it is a little loosely related to the theme, but given that the main subclasses are the undead (which are pretty much the definition of judged by the divine aside from fiends/devils/demons when it comes to DnD) and the Aberrant (unnatural eldritch abomination from outside of reality stuff) I think it adheres enough to the theme to count.
I'll put up the completed undead subclass and a partial Aberrant later, along with a list of a few possible mutations for each of them.
Basically the undead will be able to either be a death knight type tank that either supplements their melee with a few necromancy spells or has a bunch of minions backing them up, or a tanky caster with a focus on offensive necromancy spells and an honor guard of undead.
The Aberrant will be able to change out one of their unevolved mutations at the end of each long rest allowing for a lot of flexibility around a few specialized evolutions.

[Old Harry MTX]

Hopefully I've justified this opinion a bit better in an earlier post, but I'll repeat it here - generally in 5e, full casters do not gain features at 5th/7th/9th/11th/13th/15th/17th. Heck, even half casters skip levels 9/13/17.
However, all the lineages with full casting get features at every single one of these levels, and that seems too strong.

Naturally though, your martial lineages have the right power levels. I can also see that you've tried to limit the thalassian domain's action economy - I think its core feature is alright, thanks to the lack of extra attack. But it's still extremely strong, though, because cr 4 to 6 beasts can do like 22 to 40 damage with their action, and it can still command them with a bonus action at high levels. Yet another victim of warlock eldritch blast dips lmao

Well, that's partly true. Let's say that full casters may not have features at those levels, but a lot depends on the spell list they have access to. Now, if you look at the Bacchanal lineage spell list (I don't expect you to read it), you see that it is basically limited to healing or charm spells only, and the features at those levels are just to make such a "monothematic" list usable.

Different speech for the Minervan lineage, since it does not have a spell list and all the features are used to expand access to other spells. For this reason I thought of "simplifying" it, eliminating the feature at the 17th level (it never convinced me and I consider it a filler) and removing the use of Expanded Knowledge at the 11th, keeping the one at the 5th and 17th .

Other class features, like Uncanny Vigor or Otherworldly Might, are undoubtedly strong, but I also find them well thematic. I have to make some considerations before deciding whether to change them.

And yes, the Thalassian is just strong. XD probably to avoid the damnded EB dip I should also prevent the cast of cantrips when commanding the beast. I will think about it.


On that subject, I don't think there's too much a problem with the godslayer proccing divine strike once per turn when spamming eldritch blast. The godslayer can only use divine strike on stuff within 10 feet of it, which makes it hard to use EB without suffering disadvantage. The consistency is nice, but even when it hits its powerspike at 11th level, a warlock 2/godslayer 9 only does (3d10+3x cha+3d6 ==)27+3x cha. This is hardly any more than an arcane trickster with a scag cantrip, which does (6d6 +2d8+ rapier 1d8+dex + possible 3d8 = 34.5+dex+possible 3d8).

It's strong, but I think it makes thematic sense for a Godslayer to multiclass well with Warlock, so I'm fairly happy to leave it as-is

Oh, I'm not referring to the damage a Defiant Strike can inflict, I'm referring to the probability that it can enters.

[SleeplessWriter]

Alright, the undead, the aberrant, and a handful of mutations are up. I gotta say, the tenth level feature on the undead has gotta be my favorite. It's a bit weird, and something of a ribbon, but I like the image of a bunch of goblins running in yelling and screaming only to see some undead abomination sleeping in their sarcophagus rising up like some sort of B-movie vampire and letting off a single circle of death. And then just going back to sleep like nothing happened. It's just fun to me, and I feel it captures a little of all those iconic moments of the ancient evil bursting out of their tomb and immediately attacking the heroes.

[Old Harry MTX]

Alright, the undead, the aberrant, and a handful of mutations are up. I gotta say, the tenth level feature on the undead has gotta be my favorite. It's a bit weird, and something of a ribbon, but I like the image of a bunch of goblins running in yelling and screaming only to see some undead abomination sleeping in their sarcophagus rising up like some sort of B-movie vampire and letting off a single circle of death. And then just going back to sleep like nothing happened. It's just fun to me, and I feel it captures a little of all those iconic moments of the ancient evil bursting out of their tomb and immediately attacking the heroes.

Okay, I gave it an extremely quick read, and so far nothing set me on any alarm bells.

I have a couple of observations though:
If I'm not mistaken, for now mutations only require you to spend mutation dice, and not to roll them and use the result in some way, right?
I guess it's intentional, and that the flavor part is yet to be added, but at the moment I don't really see the theme of the contest.^^
Interesting entry anyway, I'm curious on how the mutations mechanic will evolve.

[luuma]

Alright, the undead, the aberrant, and a handful of mutations are up. I gotta say, the tenth level feature on the undead has gotta be my favorite. It's a bit weird, and something of a ribbon, but I like the image of a bunch of goblins running in yelling and screaming only to see some undead abomination sleeping in their sarcophagus rising up like some sort of B-movie vampire and letting off a single circle of death. And then just going back to sleep like nothing happened. It's just fun to me, and I feel it captures a little of all those iconic moments of the ancient evil bursting out of their tomb and immediately attacking the heroes.

You're right, sleep of the dead is a really excellent feature, I think it's the best part of the undead.

Overall, I think I would prefer the mutant to scale more like a warlock. I think the undead will run out of their mutation dice immediately on the first turn of combat, and once they do that, they're stuck using cantrips and relying on their passive features, which could be very annoying.

I would also cap mutation dice at 9th (purely so they can't cast stuff at 10th level), and I'd also say you should never let anyone cast animate dead once per short rest, because they'll make a very large free zombie army. Don't forget to add skill proficiencies, and let us know how to calculate the saving throw DC and spellcasting modifiers for the spells you can cast with those mutations!

Like Harry, I do want to see more of that divine judgment theme coming out, but frankly I think the theme is a bit narrow, so I'm happy to be very lenient with it! And regardless, all of the sci-fi tales of mutation and aberration have a strong theme of "divine judgment", so I can see where you're coming from.






Well, that's partly true. Let's say that full casters may not have features at those levels, but a lot depends on the spell list they have access to. Now, if you look at the Bacchanal lineage spell list (I don't expect you to read it), you see that it is basically limited to healing or charm spells only, and the features at those levels are just to make such a "monothematic" list usable.

Different speech for the Minervan lineage, since it does not have a spell list and all the features are used to expand access to other spells. For this reason I thought of "simplifying" it, eliminating the feature at the 17th level (it never convinced me and I consider it a filler) and removing the use of Expanded Knowledge at the 11th, keeping the one at the 5th and 17th .

Nah I think Bacchanal's spell list is good, and easily as good as a bard. I think if I had to find points of comparison, the bacchanal lineage is like a bard subclass, Charontian reads like a sorc subclass, and minervan is a bard that's weak for new players and brutal in the hands of someone who knows what they’re doing. 

None of them are weak casters, and none of them are weak enough to warrant getting, essentially, free features at 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, and 17th! I think as soon as you try building a demigod character, you'll find it's absolutely miles ahead of all classes by 11th level.

With regards to the Bacchanal, you could delete the bacchanal’s charm die completely and it would still be incredibly strong. That feature gives a +d4 to spell save DC for free, which is really bananas. And it scales too!

As I say, I think you should change the class so it gains no new features at odd numbered levels. Personally I think if you changed the core class progression to the following, the class' power level would be about correct:


1st 2 Divine Lineage, Unarmored Defense
2nd 2 I Hero's Labor
3rd 2 Divine Lineage Feature
4th 2 Ability Score Improvement
5th 3 —
6th 3 Divine Lineage Feature
7th 3 —
8th 3 Ability Score Improvement
9th 4 —
10th 4 II Hero's Labor, Divine Lineage Feature
11th 4 —
12th 4 Ability Score Improvement
13th 5 —
14th 5 III Hero's Labor
15th 5 —
16th 5 Ability Score Improvement
17th 6 —
18th 6 Divine Lineage Feature
19th 6 Ability Score Improvement
20th 6 Panoply

To do this, you could change Uncanny Vigor, Legendary Mount (/improved) and Otherworldly Might into hero’s labour rewards. 

And finally, you'd want to give the martial lineage a free 3rd level feature that grants them a free I hero’s labour of their choice at every other level from 5th through to 17th

[Old Harry MTX]

Nah I think Bacchanal's spell list is good, and easily as good as a bard. I think if I had to find points of comparison, the bacchanal lineage is like a bard subclass, Charontian reads like a sorc subclass, and minervan is a bard that's weak for new players and brutal in the hands of someone who knows what they’re doing. 

None of them are weak casters, and none of them are weak enough to warrant getting, essentially, free features at 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, and 17th! I think as soon as you try building a demigod character, you'll find it's absolutely miles ahead of all classes by 11th level.

With regards to the Bacchanal, you could delete the bacchanal’s charm die completely and it would still be incredibly strong. That feature gives a +d4 to spell save DC for free, which is really bananas. And it scales too!

This could be a solution, even if, in its simplicity, it was a mechanic that distinguished the class from a normal caster, as well as emphasizing its role as a charmer. If nothing else, the Kykeons mechanic will take a bigger role.

I also understand your correlations, but I think they still need to be interpreted:
You say that the Bacchanal lineage is like a bard subclass, but don't forget that it lacks some versatility in the spell list, spells known, and, of course, the Magical Secrets. Removing the charm dice, as you suggest, should resize the thing perfectly. I will also replace the part that allows you to cast Command on charmed creatures, with the ability once a day to cast Friends without the target realizing that it has suffered the effects.
Associating the Charontian lineage with a sorcerer also makes perfect sense, but don't forget that the class only has access to necromancy spells. I think I will do this: as per the Baccanal's charm dice, I will remove the Extra Attack from the Charontian, integrating it into the soulmagic option Battling Souls, so that it comes at a cost, removing Furious Souls accordingly. I'll probably rename Battling Souls to Furious Souls as well, as I like it more.
I also agree on the Minervan lineage, in the end the access to all spell lists is similar to Magic Secrets, which makes it incredibly versatile if one knows what to do, but on the other hand it must be said that this subclass has only this. For now, I'll stick to the changes I've made to it so far.


As I say, I think you should change the class so it gains no new features at odd numbered levels. Personally I think if you changed the core class progression to the following, the class' power level would be about correct:


1st 2 Divine Lineage, Unarmored Defense
2nd 2 I Hero's Labor
3rd 2 Divine Lineage Feature
4th 2 Ability Score Improvement
5th 3 —
6th 3 Divine Lineage Feature
7th 3 —
8th 3 Ability Score Improvement
9th 4 —
10th 4 II Hero's Labor, Divine Lineage Feature
11th 4 —
12th 4 Ability Score Improvement
13th 5 —
14th 5 III Hero's Labor
15th 5 —
16th 5 Ability Score Improvement
17th 6 —
18th 6 Divine Lineage Feature
19th 6 Ability Score Improvement
20th 6 Panoply

To do this, you could change Uncanny Vigor, Legendary Mount (/improved) and Otherworldly Might into hero’s labour rewards. 

And finally, you'd want to give the martial lineage a free 3rd level feature that grants them a free I hero’s labour of their choice at every other level from 5th through to 17th

In this way, however, other problems arise. In fact, as I said to BerzerkerUnit a few posts above, the 5th, 11th and 17th are levels considered more incisive than the others, so moving the features of the lineages to other levels creates an imbalance in the martial classes, not to mention that this is just what I need to differentiate the subclasses as much as possible.

Now you could tell me "sure, that's why there are no classes with subclasses so different from each other, ranging from the perfect warrior to the ultimate caster", and from a certain point of view I could also agree with you, but on the other we are making homebrews, so I don't mind being a little daring.

Let's say that if I really have to make a change of this type, I would almost prefer to go completely crazy and shift the spell slots one level lower, keeping the full progression but one level below!

Not to mention that moving Hero's Labor from 7th level goes in conflict with the fact that many divine gifts let you sporadically cast 4th level spells! It would be a real shame! XD

Finally, the idea of turning Uncanny Vigor and Otherworldly Might into divine gifts (or removing them altogether) isn't bad, I'll consider it.

EDIT: I've removed Otherworldly Might and merged Uncanny Vigor with the Golden Fleece gift. Changed the Martial lineage damage bonus progression to coincide with the new empty levels, in order to ensure something for it too at each level, while the Thalassian has the normal CR increase so it has not undergone any adjustments. I have to say that the class table with those two empty levels is very ugly... XD

[SleeplessWriter]

Okay, I've got a few more evolutions up, including one for Lesser Phylactery and one for Sepulchral Armaments, and I adjusted the mutation dice per level. It should now be a little closer to the warlock spellsot progression, sans mystic arcanum, but since it's basically a spellpoints type system it can cast 6+ level spells no problem and is a bit more flexible to make up for any lost power.

As for animate dead once per short rest, looking at it I don't see many problems with it other than how low level it could be done before, so I adjusted it a bit to compensate for that. Both Animate Dead and Create Dead are now limited to once per long rest until you grab the next evolution for Master of the Dead, at which point they can only be cast once per short rest instead. There's a big difference between casting Animate Dead once per short rest at 5th level and 11th level, let alone Create Dead.
This way it's a little more in line with the other methods of casting Animate Dead on a per short rest basis, namely 5 levels of warlock + either 5 levels into Divine Soul sorcerer or 6 levels into Lore bard to pick up Animate Dead (and Crusader's Mantle for the Lore bard, as a massive damage boost to your gaggle of undead). While there are no reasonable ways to do the same for Create Dead (that I've spotted at least) I feel that locking that behind 17th level and half your evolution slots is fair enough.

As for flavor, I admit it is a bit more tenuous than most the other classes submitted so far, but that's because I'm not doing a class that is about being divinely judged but about being the thing that is judged. To clarify a bit, BerzerkerUnit's What Was archetype is an eldritch being, but that still plays second fiddle to being judged by the divine, whereas the Aberrant is also something of an eldritch being but that is at the forefront both mechanics and flavor-wise while being judged and rejected by both society and the divine is relegated to flavor alone. It's a little bit of a risky angle to come at the contest with, I suppose, but I just really like the idea of the Mutant and wanted to get it done now, instead of waiting for a contest where it would line up 1 for 1 thematically instead of at an angle.


as for what I still need to get done:The Aberrant needs its 10th and 15th level features (18th level feature is buried in the 7th level feature, kinda like a lot of fighter subclasses do), and I need to fill out a more robust list of mutations. The Undead I've been planning as having mutations that run along roughly three "tracks": The Death Knight, a melee tank and damage dealer; The Necromancer, a minion focused build that I'm thinking will eventually be able to summon a select few of the stronger and more exotic undead, such as two or three flameskulls at 17th level (maybe); and The Deathcaster, a necromancy based mage. So I need at least six mutations that can be picked up at 1st level (2 for each of the three tracks), and at least 12 total for the Undead at 20th level. Then I need to do roughly the same for the Aberrant, though I'm only planning on two tracks for that one (a melee tank and a sneaky stalker/ambusher + a few random utility options like the wings).

After that it'll mostly be a few balance tweaks and any other random mutations to fill things out.
All in all I'm really satisfied with the Mutant base class as a good chassis for modular classes. After the contest I'm thinking I'll work on adding a cyborg subclass, probably using artificer style infusions and extra attunement slots but the items can only be used by yourself since they're integrated into your body. Whatever I do, I think it's gonna be fun.

Edit: Added in the Familiar with Death mutation. Basically allows you to summon a familiar, or with an evolution a flock of familiars, that are undead, giving them Undead Fortitude, and also allowing you to expend a mutation die and add it to an ability check or saving throw. Just requires the corpse of whatever form you wanna "summon." Considering that it also adds the option to have a Crawling Claw or Stomping Foot as a familiar, this'll produce some rather unusual habits (i.e. standard PC behavior).

"Sir, why do you have bag of severed hands and feet? And another with eight deceased birds, three rats, two uncomfortably large spiders, and a desiccated frog?" -- The Gate Guard who is definitely about to call the priests when I tell him I use them as a swarm of unholy scouts to plan robberies and assassinations.

[Old Harry MTX]

Hi guys, I report below the adjustments I made since the last changelog:

ChangeLog:


BaseClass:
Changed Legendary Mount at 6th, removing the part that increased the steed's stats.
Removed Uncanny Vigor from 9th and converted it in a divine gift, merging it with the Golden Fleece. The Golden Fleece no longer gives you +1 to AC, and now the starting uses of Uncanny Vigor are once every 3 days.
Changed Improved Legendary Mount at 14th, that now simply let you cast Find Greater Steed instead of Find Steed once/day.
Removed Otherworldly Might at 15th.

Bacchanal:
Changed the cantrips known progression. Now you learn Friends + 2 other cantrip at level 1, and only one other cantrip at level 10th, like the Arkane Trickster.
Removed Irresistible Glamor at 5th.
Changed Lulling Words at 5th to give you once per day an interaction with Friends.

Charontian:
Now several Soulmagic options also costs a bonus action, to compete with Ghostly Presence in the action economy.
Removed Extra Attack at 5th.
Changed Ghoulish Presence at 5th to give you once per day an interaction between Obsequies Ceremony and Speak with Dead.

Martial:
Moved and increased Battle Fury's damage bonuses to 9th (+2) and 15th (+3) levels, to compensate the removal of Uncanny Vigor and Otherworldly Might.

Minervan:
Removed the 2nd use of Expanded Knowledge at 11th level, keeping the one at 5th and the one at 17th.
Removed Expert Casting at 17th level.

Thalassian:
Changed the Behaviour section in Abyssal Recall. Now you can't both commands the beast and cast a spell, not even a cantrip.
Replaced Extra Attack with Conescutive Attack at 5th, that now needs the use of a bonus action, competing with commanding the beast.


Okay, I've got a few more evolutions up, including one for Lesser Phylactery and one for Sepulchral Armaments, ...

Nice, as soon as it is a little more definitive, I'll give it a look again.

[SleeplessWriter]

Apparently I forgot to hit post last night after editing in Familiar with Death, NOW it's in there. Lol.

[Brandyn2]

I'm sure you will succeed

[MoleMage]

Hey all, it looks like I'm going to be on the road on the week where this was scheduled to end, and very probably through the next Monday as well, so I'm giving it a two-week extension rather than try to fit the voting thread in between driving and seeing my family. It looks like a lot of entries are already finished and polished, so mostly this is just free time to chat about things. Good luck and good work!

[SleeplessWriter]

No problem, I was gonna ask if anyone else wanted an extension anyway, since I don't have all the mutations finished yet and I got a class that starts on Monday. Hope you have a nice drive (or at least one that doesn't leave you a wreck of frustration and stiffness).

[sengmeng]

I think we're overdue for a voting thread here

[MoleMage]

I think we're overdue for a voting thread here

I forgot to update the deadline when I announced the two week extension, but the contest is live through this Sunday.

[sengmeng]

I forgot to update the deadline when I announced the two week extension, but the contest is live through this Sunday.

Ah, got it. Maybe I'll use that time haha.

[MoleMage]

Okay, I have enough of the Prophet to consider it viewable. It's still missing some of its fluff and it only has one subclass and three Omens so far, but I'm running out of time to make more and I'm not sure how much I'll be able to work on it tomorrow before the deadline. At least I got it posted.

It's probably obvious, but Omens are intended to be fairly reliably triggered; the hardest one to set off right now is probably Lucky Strike but that's more defensive than offensive.

As for the spell list, assume Cleric spells for now (I was going to build it based primarily on that with a few things taken away and a few Divinations taken from other classes).

[MoleMage]

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?636422-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-XVI-Voting-Thread&p=25195038#post25195038

Voting time is upon us! Let's see how we all did and what we want to do next!

[MoleMage]

Alright voting time is over!

In third place, we have Old Harry MTX's Demigod, earning 5 points and winning out over MoleMage's Prophet through the 2nd tiebreaker! Strange that such an iconic origin from mythology isn't in the base game, but now we have this wonderful version.

In second place, we have luuma's Godslayer with 8 points. Your capstone is to literally call god out for a duel. How awesome is that?

And in first place, we have BerzerkerUnit's Forsaken with 9 points. Because sometimes the gods are cruel, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't soldier on.

Who Needs Swords or Sorcery is our next contest theme. I'll post it in the next hour or so once I get it all formatted. Congrats everyone on great entries!

In case you missed it, voting has been called, and we have our new Chat Thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?637229-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-XVII-Chat-Thread) and Submissions Thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?637228-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-XVII-Who-Needs-Swords-or-Sorcery-II&p=25220376#post25220376) up for Who Needs Swords or Sorcery II.