Best Low-Level Necromancer?

[Palanan]

Using only official Paizo material, how much necromancing can be squeezed into a fifth-level build?

I’m mainly concerned with maximizing the number of undead that can be controlled at any given time—but I know next to nothing about running necromancers, so I’m willing to trade numbers for durability if that’s an option.

[Firebug]

Animate Dead (https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Animate%20Dead) is Cleric 3 or Wizard 4, so likely Cleric base would be the simplest. And gets you Desecrate (https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Desecrate) on list. Undead Lord Cleric (https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Cleric%20Undead%20 Lord) also gets a companion undead.

Maybe Shaman with the Bones Spirit. Same access to Animate Dead, but no Desecrate (though you can fix that with a favored class bonus).

Undead Master Wizard (https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Wizard%20Undead%20 Master) could work too. It can get an undead companion and gets Animate Dead early (at 5th).

[Calthropstu]

I'd say bard can get in the most neck romancing.

5th level I think only cleric gets animate dead at that level. Oracles get it at 6th.

edit: BOY DID I FIND THE CLASS FOR YOU.

It is 3rd party from Legendary games. The class is Legendary Wizard using the master of undeath archetype.

The details can be found Here (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/legendary-games/legendary-wizard/archetypes/master-of-undeath-legendary-wizard-archetype/)

Edit edit: Whoops, only official paizo. nvm.

Also, don't forget lesser animate dead.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Firebug
Animate Dead is Cleric 3 or Wizard 4, so likely Cleric base would be the simplest. And gets you Desecrate on list. Undead Lord Cleric also gets a companion undead.

…Undead Master Wizard could work too. It can get an undead companion and gets Animate Dead early (at 5th).

I appreciate these options, thanks.

I’m realizing just how little I know about this corner of the game. How could either of these options use Animate Dead to create undead greater than 1 HD? Or is that possible?

In other words, I could use a quick overview of what’s possible with the Animate Dead spell. (The spell description seems a little...bare-bones, so to speak.)


Originally Posted by Calthropstu
edit: BOY DID I FIND THE CLASS FOR YOU.

...Edit edit: Whoops, only official paizo. nvm.

Points for enthusiasm, thanks. :smalltongue:

[Calthropstu]

I appreciate these options, thanks.

I’m realizing just how little I know about this corner of the game. How could either of these options use Animate Dead to create undead greater than 1 HD? Or is that possible?

In other words, I could use a quick overview of what’s possible with the Animate Dead spell. (The spell description seems a little...bare-bones, so to speak.)



Points for enthusiasm, thanks. :smalltongue:

Animate stronger creatures. Animate dead a bear and you have an undead bear with more than 1 hd because it uses base creature to apply templates.

Cleric is still better than the other options because:

Channel negative heals them.
You can get a feat that allows channel negative to take control of undead.
Unhallow is a thing.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Calthropstu
You can get a feat that allows channel negative to take control of undead.

Okay, thanks. How does this interact with the undead from Animate Undead? Are the HD of the undead from Command Undead in a separate pool from those created by Animate Undead?

If so, how do you source the undead for Command Undead? Is this kind of a vacuum approach, just hoovering up any stray undead you happen across?

[Calthropstu]

Okay, thanks. How does this interact with the undead from Animate Undead? Are the HD of the undead from Command Undead in a separate pool from those created by Animate Undead?

If so, how do you source the undead for Command Undead? Is this kind of a vacuum approach, just hoovering up any stray undead you happen across?

It is very much permanent and infinite. Unlike the spell command undead, the feat command undead has no limitations stated, and James Jacobs clarified it as being permanent or until the undead makes its daily save. So basically hoover away.

Clerics do not get the command undead spell except as inevitable domain. So eh?

[Firebug]

Generally, animating Humanoids is pointless as you just get 1 HD skeletons or 2 HD zombies. So for Pathfinder at least, the cemetery is not a good target for the budding Necromancer.

Monsters are much better options for animating, as they don't typically have class levels (which are lost) and just have hit dice.

If you somehow get the ability to raise sentient undead that keep their class levels (like juju zombies (https://aonprd.com/MonsterTemplates.aspx?ItemName=JuJu%20Zombie) or skeletal champions (https://aonprd.com/MonsterTemplates.aspx?ItemName=Skeletal%20Champion )), then cemeteries are good options.

[Psyren]

Okay, thanks. How does this interact with the undead from Animate Undead? Are the HD of the undead from Command Undead in a separate pool from those created by Animate Undead?

Correct, they're separate pools - much like how it worked in 3.5. This line is slightly different but still present in both editions:


The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. (You choose which creatures are released.) If you are a cleric, any undead you might command by virtue of your power to command or rebuke undead do not count toward the limit.


The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. You choose which creatures are released. Undead you control through the Command Undead feat do not count toward this limit.

In other words, a spellcaster who can both cast this spell AND use channel negative energy to command undead, can control a much larger quantity (or quality) of undead than one using the spell alone. In addition, once an undead breaks free, the spell can't be used to regain control, but channeling negative energy supernaturally can.

This is why evil clerics make such good "army of the dead" characters - or early boss antagonists - in both games.



Also, don't forget lesser animate dead.

This is the other reason clerics and oracles are the reanimators of choice in PF - the ability to get a skeleton minion and do your schtick as early as level 3 or 4. On top of which, the clause about control still applies, meaning you can animate two skeletons (or three etc.), controlling one with the spell and the other(s) with your Command Undead ability, provided you have the feat that grants access to it.

[Calthropstu]

Correct, they're separate pools - much like how it worked in 3.5. This line is slightly different but still present in both editions:





In other words, a spellcaster who can both cast this spell AND use channel negative energy to command undead, can control a much larger quantity (or quality) of undead than one using the spell alone. In addition, once an undead breaks free, the spell can't be used to regain control, but channeling negative energy supernaturally can.

This is why evil clerics make such good "army of the dead" characters - or early boss antagonists - in both games.



This is the other reason clerics and oracles are the reanimators of choice in PF - the ability to get a skeleton minion and do your schtick as early as level 3 or 4. On top of which, the clause about control still applies, meaning you can animate two skeletons (or three etc.), controlling one with the spell and the other(s) with your Command Undead ability, provided you have the feat that grants access to it.

And the command undead feat doesn't have the command undead spell limitations and all of its benefits.

[Starbuck_II]

Spiritualists get animate dead and lesser.
There is even an archetype to make phantom undead.
So, technically, at lv 1.

Granted, they are only up to 6th max so they get fewer spells/day. They can buy a ring if Mysticism for more spell/day though

[Psyren]

And the command undead feat doesn't have the command undead spell limitations and all of its benefits.

More benefits actually. Despite sharing a name, the feat and spell have basically nothing to do with one another, which is a bit of confusion I wish Pathfinder had eliminated before going to print.

Command Undead (the spell) is closer to charm person. It makes undead friendlier/easier to convince, or in the case of mindless ones, you gain rudimentary control (basic commands only) with no save. Notably

Command Undead (the feat) actually works like control undead (except multi-target and lasting nigh-indefinitely), which is much more powerful - closer to dominate person than to charm person. For intelligent undead, you dictate their actions rather than convincing them, and for non-intelligent undead you can issue much more textured commands. Also unlike the command undead spell, the feat lets you give obviously harmful or self-destructive commands. If Redcloak were in Pathfinder for example, the feat would have let him order Tsukiko's wights to eat each other and then dispose of themselves in the fireplace, whereas the command undead spell would not.

[Axel_Neco]

You allowed to use variant rules? If so, words of power has the word Undeath, which is a single target version of Animate Dead with no cost. Bonus of being a level lower than Animate Dead (2 for cleric/3 for wizard). You can snag it using the feat Experimental Spellcaster if the subsystem is allowed. You will need to talk to your DM though to see if the feats that modify Animate Dead apply, as they do not by RAW.