Paladin+?

[Arkhios]

This is partly to kill some time, partly to probe for opinions, and perhaps new points of view for what's to come.

I have a character who has been in a long "stasis" due to that specific campaign being on hiatus, but I tend to think about the character's future every now and then, even though it seems uncertain if we'll ever continue. If that turns out to be the case, I may recreate the same character and concept elsewhere.

I've had several ideas to combine with the character who is a Variant Human Paladin of the Ancients, 5th level, Str 18, Dex 9, Con 16, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 16, with proficiency in Athletics, Arcana, Nature, Religion, and Survival, as well as in Blacksmith's tools. His feats are Resilient (Con) and Dual Wielder*.
*Dual Wielder is non-negotiable, I want to keep it.

One of my favorite things about the character is that his ancestor was my character during our D&D Next playtest campaign (of epic proportions), who later became a famous archmage, after the campaign ended, rumored to have been blessed by the Summer Queen Titania, with his fate shrouded in mystery, having disappeared sometime before his own child was born, and was never heard of since, only assumed dead afterwards. For five generations since, his descendants have been given training in Arcana as a tradition and homage to said ancestor. Thus, even a Paladin such as my character has proficiency in Arcana.

Due to long tradition of his nomadic people, however, he follows the Old Faith commonly worshipped by the druids. In his youth he was initiated into the circle, and when coming of age, he was anointed as a protector of the circle of the moon, nature, and the old ways, hence the Sacred Oath of the Ancients. I have pictured that his magical abilities are more akin to those of the druids rather than clerical.

Being a direct patrilineal descendant of the legendary archmage who had a DM-given moniker The Stormbearer due to the circumstances of his birth, my character has particularly keen interest in all things related to his ancestor's area of expertise; the literal power over storms as well as nature magic.

Regarding the potential branching out, the ideas have included the following, in order of conception:

Lore Bard 6-9, mostly because of great synergy in and out of combat.
Storm Sorcerer 6-8, due to a rather obvious bloodline. Alternatively, Celestial for mechanical synergy.
Archfey Warlock 7 with Pact of the Tome. Although the character lost his memory of it, The Summer Queen herself visited him during his Sacred Oath Ritual. IIRC it had something to do with his ancestor's part in the events of the past. DM did hint that he might yet recall those memories at a later point.
Celestial Warlock 7 with Pact of the Tome. This is purely for mechanical synergy.
War Mage 6-8, because the ancestor would've been a War Mage himself, despite the moniker. Obviously this would require a +2 investment in Intelligence, which I would be willing to make.
Eldritch Knight 6, mostly because of same hit die, another fighting style (Two-Weapon Fighting, I already have Defense), Weapon Bond (up to 2 weapons!), as well as some improvement in spell slots. Also, thematic.
Rune Knight 7, mostly as above, except that rune magic would be an interesting addition for a character fluent in Giant and being a proficient blacksmith.


I've been thinking of taking at least 11 levels in paladin for Improved Divine Smite, because it really adds up nicely for Two-Weapon Fighting (which is a non-negotiable combat style). Possibly 13 for Find Greater Steed (mainly because of dire wolf, as it would be somewhat thematic for the character's background). But aside from that, the rest is open-ended for the time being.

Any suggestions or opinions regarding the above are welcome.

[GentlemanVoodoo]

Your current ideas do seem valid for what you are wanting. But two other options you could consider are the Ranger and Barbarian. Both still have the thematic ties to nature like what your wanting and also do complement the martial aspects of the Paladin. Rangers do have access to nature based spells that would still be useful even with a low Wisdom score like Summon Beast and Guardian of Nature. The Barbarian is a natural attack booster but would also fit the theme well enough. Depending on subclass choice you can play more to the elemental theme as a Storm Herald, gain druid like effects with Totem Warrior or seek help of your ancestors with the Ancestral Guardian.

Of these I would recommend:

Ranger Beastmaster
Ranger Fey Wanderer
Ranger Swarmkeeper
Barbarian Totem Warrior
Barbarian Storm Herald
Barbarian Ancestral Guardian

[Arkhios]

Your current ideas do seem valid for what you are wanting. But two other options you could consider are the Ranger and Barbarian. Both still have the thematic ties to nature like what your wanting and also do complement the martial aspects of the Paladin. Rangers do have access to nature based spells that would still be useful even with a low Wisdom score like Summon Beast and Guardian of Nature. The Barbarian is a natural attack booster but would also fit the theme well enough. Depending on subclass choice you can play more to the elemental theme as a Storm Herald, gain druid like effects with Totem Warrior or seek help of your ancestors with the Ancestral Guardian.

Of these I would recommend:

Ranger Beastmaster
Ranger Fey Wanderer
Ranger Swarmkeeper
Barbarian Totem Warrior
Barbarian Storm Herald
Barbarian Ancestral Guardian

Both barbarian and ranger are a bit problematic stat-wise.

Ranger requirements (minimum dex 13 and wis 13) I don't meet at all.

Barbarian requirements (minimum str 13) I do meet, but raging doesn't do much if I'm wearing heavy armor, and in medium or lighter armor a Dex 9 would give me a penalty to AC.

Of those two, however, I agree that barbarian could still be an option, even if I would rage in heavy armor, as I would still be able to benefit from most sub-class rage abilities, even if if I didn't get the most out of it.

[Waazraath]

I'm not sure to be honest, for two reasons:
1) a lot of things seem possible: at least, I read your post as looking for a mc for your pally defined as "something that thematically fits storms and magic" - that's really a lot in DnD, and paladin multiclasses nicely with a lot of those;
2) I don't see clearly what is most imprortant for your build; in the options you mention, you refer to both flavor/theme as well as mechanical beneftits, but which one is more important to you?

Having said that, some semi-random remarks:
- The suggestion of the former poster about Ranger as an option is flavorful, but doesn't comply with multiclass rules (needs dex 13)
- Having very strong and powerful options for charisma based full-casters (Bard, Sor and Warlock), I really wouldn't spend an ASI on +2 int just to be able to MC into a wizard. Warmage is nice for a paladin, if you already have the int, but if you need to invest to get it while there are so many other good options available, I'd pass
- bard/warlock/sorcerer are also more powerful an addition than fighter is, for a paladin. Yeah, action surge, the fighting style, subclasses, al nice, but definitely weaker than keep adding spell slots and new spells known. Fighter 5 would be a dead level anyway, which would suck at a very high level where all others get really shiny things.
- Often Sorcerer is a boon because the extra attack as a bonus action (scag cantrip with quicken), but since you are dual wielding, that isn't as much of a boon here.
- personally, if you are taking 13 levels of pally first, I'd just wait up to level 12 or something, and decide based on how play went so far what your party benefits from most.

[Kane0]

I would personally pick Storm Sorc for that mix of flavor and mechanical synergy, even moreso if your DM can provide some bonus spells known like more recent sorc bloodlines have been getting.

Alternatively, if you want to remain largely single classed perhaps something like ritual caster?

[RSP]

I’d certainly go with RP reasons to Multiclassing, if they come up, but what’s wrong with staying straight Ancients?

That is, the character is only level 5 at this point. What aren’t you getting from Pally that you’re looking for? More spell slots?

Ancients probably fills the RP requirements as well, though you’ll know what you want out of that better than anyone else, but my advice would be to stay straight Ancients until and unless you have an RP reason to switch.

Barring there being that “thing” you feel missing.

[Arkhios]

I'm not sure to be honest, for two reasons:
1) a lot of things seem possible: at least, I read your post as looking for a mc for your pally defined as "something that thematically fits storms and magic" - that's really a lot in DnD, and paladin multiclasses nicely with a lot of those;
2) I don't see clearly what is most imprortant for your build; in the options you mention, you refer to both flavor/theme as well as mechanical beneftits, but which one is more important to you?

Honestly, I'm having hard time deciding which one is more important to me, as I feel more inclined to say that they are equally important. If 5th edition has taught me anything about roleplaying, it's that just about any roleplaying experience is more fulfilling if you embrace all aspects of the game. Ignoring one or the other would make the game/experience feel "hollow" in a way.


Having said that, some semi-random remarks:
- The suggestion of the former poster about Ranger as an option is flavorful, but doesn't comply with multiclass rules (needs dex 13)
- Having very strong and powerful options for charisma based full-casters (Bard, Sor and Warlock), I really wouldn't spend an ASI on +2 int just to be able to MC into a wizard. Warmage is nice for a paladin, if you already have the int, but if you need to invest to get it while there are so many other good options available, I'd pass
- bard/warlock/sorcerer are also more powerful an addition than fighter is, for a paladin. Yeah, action surge, the fighting style, subclasses, al nice, but definitely weaker than keep adding spell slots and new spells known. Fighter 5 would be a dead level anyway, which would suck at a very high level where all others get really shiny things.
- Often Sorcerer is a boon because the extra attack as a bonus action (scag cantrip with quicken), but since you are dual wielding, that isn't as much of a boon here.
- personally, if you are taking 13 levels of pally first, I'd just wait up to level 12 or something, and decide based on how play went so far what your party benefits from most.

I agree. It would be better if I already had that minimum 13, at the very least. Headband of Intellect could help with that in the long run. But since I would have to spend an ASI on it first, it's really not that ideal as a choice. I suppose the wizard option is the most sentimental, and in truth, just wouldn't make much sense.

[Maan]

Worth to consider, Ancients is the only kind of Paladin that benefits from waiting to MC until level 7: that Aura improvement is very nice.
As someone else pointed out, the fact you are dual wielding does restrict your choices a bit, mostly with Sorcerer's Quickned Spell; so Bard or Warlock can become more attractive in comparison.
Warcaster is a Feat you definitely will want to consider if you multiclass: on top of other privileges, an OA Booming Blade makes you a lot tankier.

[Arkhios]

I would personally pick Storm Sorc for that mix of flavor and mechanical synergy, even moreso if your DM can provide some bonus spells known like more recent sorc bloodlines have been getting.

Alternatively, if you want to remain largely single classed perhaps something like ritual caster?


I’d certainly go with RP reasons to Multiclassing, if they come up, but what’s wrong with staying straight Ancients?

That is, the character is only level 5 at this point. What aren’t you getting from Pally that you’re looking for? More spell slots?

Ancients probably fills the RP requirements as well, though you’ll know what you want out of that better than anyone else, but my advice would be to stay straight Ancients until and unless you have an RP reason to switch.

Barring there being that “thing” you feel missing.

I feel that the things I'm actually missing with Oath of the Ancients are several of the more thematic spells, such as Call Lightning, Gust of Wind, Lightning Bolt, Thunder Step, and Thunderwave, as well as cantrips such as Booming Blade, Gust, Lighting Lure, or Thunderclap. Those can't be acquired via Ritual Caster feat, although the feat would otherwise be nice to have. Also, I wouldn't need to get all of them. Even if I got only some of them I would be content.

That said, I'm quite certain I won't be multiclassing right away. I just know that at some later point, I will.


Worth to consider, Ancients is the only kind of Paladin that benefits from waiting to MC until level 7: that Aura improvement is very nice.
As someone else pointed out, the fact you are dual wielding does restrict your choices a bit, mostly with Sorcerer's Quickned Spell; so Bard or Warlock can become more attractive in comparison.
Warcaster is a Feat you definitely will want to consider if you multiclass: on top of other privileges, an OA Booming Blade makes you a lot tankier.

Indeed. I've been planning to get War Caster and I won't be multiclassing until I have it, so that would mean waiting at least until 8th Paladin level. It's possible I'll wait until 9th, because paladins get some juicy spells at that level, too. Luckily, I already have a Ruby of the War Mage, which helps a lot. For thematic purposes, I have attached the Ruby on my character's warhammer, and will definitely incorporate the weapon swings into the actual spellcasting, such as slamming the ground with the hammer to send forth a thunderwave and such.

[Keravath]

Given your character description and back story, it seems to me that the most fitting multiclass would be storm sorcerer. Harnessing your inner power of the storm. You may not be the intellect that your ancestor was in terms of mastering wizardry but you have a powerful force of will allowing you to manifest magic more spontaneously and in a form consistent with your heritage.

Use your next couple of ASI to boost charisma (which benefits your aura and other elements of your character).

Since you are dual wielding, booming blade is not really a useful cantrip for you since you won't get the bonus action attack and lose extra attack if you cast booming blade. It might seem thematic but it isn't something your paladin would likely use. On the other hand, sorcerer can pick up several of the thematic spells and if you pick up the transmute metamagic you can choose to manifest your magic as thunder or lightning at any time. (Scorching Ray and Fireball are good examples that a storm sorcerer with transmute could make into storm spells).

[Arkhios]

Given your character description and back story, it seems to me that the most fitting multiclass would be storm sorcerer. Harnessing your inner power of the storm. You may not be the intellect that your ancestor was in terms of mastering wizardry but you have a powerful force of will allowing you to manifest magic more spontaneously and in a form consistent with your heritage.

Use your next couple of ASI to boost charisma (which benefits your aura and other elements of your character).

Since you are dual wielding, booming blade is not really a useful cantrip for you since you won't get the bonus action attack and lose extra attack if you cast booming blade. It might seem thematic but it isn't something your paladin would likely use. On the other hand, sorcerer can pick up several of the thematic spells and if you pick up the transmute metamagic you can choose to manifest your magic as thunder or lightning at any time. (Scorching Ray and Fireball are good examples that a storm sorcerer with transmute could make into storm spells).

Oh, damn! I hadn't even thought about that possibility! Transmuted Spell metamagic does indeed tip the scale heavily in favor of Storm Sorcerer! Thank you for the suggestion! In fact, I could use it even with some of paladin spells, if I felt like it.

Also, Booming Blade isn't a top priority for me to get. War Caster I will take, nonetheless, as it makes it easier for me to cast spells when I'm wielding both weapons, and, well Booming Blade may come in handy with it, but otherwise? Not really. It might even be better if I cast Ray of Frost or heck, Firebolt with Transmuted Spell, if I really needed another option for lightning or thunder damage as cantrips.

[Maan]

Also, Booming Blade isn't a top priority for me to get. War Caster I will take, nonetheless, as it makes it easier for me to cast spells when I'm wielding both weapons, and, well Booming Blade may come in handy with it, but otherwise? Not really. It might even be better if I cast Ray of Frost or heck, Firebolt with Transmuted Spell, if I really needed another option for lightning or thunder damage as cantrips.
Depends on what you want your role to be, really.

For a tank, Warcaster + Booming Blade is a terrific combo. If you don't want that enemy to move away and attack your other party members, you can Quicken a Booming Blade as a Bonus Action; now if the enemy moves away he gets damage from the Booming Blade rider + you can attack him with another Booming Blade Opportunity Attack (thanks to Warcaster) and he will take the damage + another rider. It's an extremely punishing combo.

On the other hand, if that's not what you see as your primary role, then Warcaster could be not so hot: the Ruby you have mitigates the spellcasting problems and your saves will already be in autosuccess territory when you reach level 6 (Proficency in Constitution saves, + Constitution 16 + Aura with 16 Carisma: that's +9, what you need for autosuccess on a concentration save caused by minimal damage).

[Arkhios]

Depends on what you want your role to be, really.

For a tank, Warcaster + Booming Blade is a terrific combo. If you don't want that enemy to move away and attack your other party members, you can Quicken a Booming Blade as a Bonus Action; now if the enemy moves away he gets damage from the Booming Blade rider + you can attack him with another Booming Blade Opportunity Attack (thanks to Warcaster) and he will take the damage + another rider. It's an extremely punishing combo.

On the other hand, if that's not what you see as your primary role, then Warcaster could be not so hot: the Ruby you have mitigates the spellcasting problems and your saves will already be in autosuccess territory when you reach level 6 (Proficency in Constitution saves, + Constitution 16 + Aura with 16 Carisma: that's +9, what you need for autosuccess on a concentration save caused by minimal damage).

I mean, I know that booming blade and war caster are a good combo for a tank and, truth be told, I was our group's de facto tank, but it's still true that if I would use Booming Blade as normal, I wouldn't exactly benefit from two-weapon fighting as written. But, I do have extra attack and there's nothing's stopping me from dividing my two regular attacks between different weapons, and using Quicken to make Booming Blade attack as a bonus action ...which is actually a pretty neat combo even when using two weapons, now that I think about it; casting Booming Blade, even as a Bonus Action, I would get strength bonus to the damage roll!

[Maan]

I mean, I know that booming blade and war caster are a good combo for a tank and, truth be told, I was our group's de facto tank, but it's still true that if I would use Booming Blade as normal, I wouldn't exactly benefit from two-weapon fighting as written. But, I do have extra attack and there's nothing's stopping me from dividing my two regular attacks between different weapons, and using Quicken to make Booming Blade attack as a bonus action ...which is actually a pretty neat combo even when using two weapons, now that I think about it; casting Booming Blade, even as a Bonus Action, I would get strength bonus to the damage roll!
Yeah, I'm aware you definitely want the character to fight with two weapons; usually it's not considered optimal but can still work decently.
However, you don't have to stick to a single choice, regardless of the situation: you can use BB when needed, use the off hand attack when you don't want to burn resources, or even use a shield when you need protection more than stopping power.
Honestly, Warcaster is just so good that is probably worth it no matter what.

[LordShade]

Storm or Archfey are clearly the right answer here. Paladin/Warlock and Sorcadin are great mechanical combos regardless of the subclasses you pick. Since you're already going to have an effective character, why not pick according to RP theme. It's not like Storm sorc is vastly inferior to Divine Soul.

You might consider going Bladepact on Archfey. If I was DMing I'd even let you have Hex Warrior for free with Bladepact, so that you can summon two charisma swords (if you want to stop Str at 18 and start pumping Cha).

You can even triple-class. If it was for RP reasons with a consistent backstory I'd certainly allow it. This is a cool character, hope you get to play it again.