OOTS #1239 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Sir_Norbert]

This is getting better and better with every strip!

[The MunchKING]

Pretty much what everyone said last strip...

[hroþila]

Interesting that Serini referred to Haley as the leader. She might just mean that she's the one actually calling the shots now that Roy's down, but it seems more natural to assume she didn't know Roy was the leader. Which puts a limit to the extent of her knowledge about the Order.

[Kaed]

I can understand why it's being done, but it is funny to me how conspicuously they are avoiding saying the word 'beholder'.

[ManuelSacha]

Yeah, but you still closed with a punchline, Elan.
And that's what we expect. :smallbiggrin:

[Metastachydium]

Interesting that Serini referred to Haley as the leader. She might just mean that she's the one actually calling the shots now that Roy's down, but it seems more natural to assume she didn't know Roy was the leader. Which puts a limit to the extent of her knowledge about the Order.

Yeah, she's basically pulling that Tarquin thing when he believed that the member of the Order that resembles him the most must also be the leader. And frankly, that's just sad.

[Quild]

On the plus side for Durkon, his hammer came back even without magic!

[Coyote0715]

Oh well. I was hoping to see Bloodfeast. Maybe next time....

[Ivrytwr]

Pretty much anytime I hear "Behold!" I am expecting a sad trombone. You did not fail to deliver here!
But seeing Bloodfeast would have been awesome!

Thanks Giant!

[Peelee]

That's a super cool shot of Haley being crazy dextrous.

[Quebbster]

I for one appreciate Belkar explaining the plan now so he can pull out a surprise dinosaur later in the story. Not every reader is a rules geek after all.

[dancrilis]

Nice page.

And guess the hammer is not an artifact.

[KorvinStarmast]

Interesting that Serini referred to Haley as the leader. She might just mean that she's the one actually calling the shots now that Roy's down, but it seems more natural to assume she didn't know Roy was the leader. Which puts a limit to the extent of her knowledge about the Order. She's the one taking charge; she is, as of this moment, the leader until someone else takes charge. That's kind of how leadership works. (Dr Warren Blank (http://leadershipgroup.com/) is a very good source on effective leadership).

I can understand why it's being done, but it is funny to me how conspicuously they are avoiding saying the word 'beholder'. IP is IP, right? :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, she's basically pulling that Tarquin thing when he believed that the member of the Order that resembles him the most must also be the leader. And frankly, that's just sad. I don't think so; she's assessing the actions and reactions of the group and correctly identifying the one who is (a) taking charge and (b) giving direction as the leader (or as the ad hoc leader now that the OoTS leader is taken out of the picture with the poison). And I note that in the last panel, Haley just took an arrow (bolt?) to the knee arch. Haley being awake by the end of 1240 is in doubt.

Count me among the fans who were hoping that Belkar would be able to release Bloodfeast; disappointed that it didn't work out, but the 'magic don't work in the AMF' explanation is consistent with D&D reality.

[hroþila]

Yeah, she's basically pulling that Tarquin thing when he believed that the member of the Order that resembles him the most must also be the leader. And frankly, that's just sad.
I think it's a reasonable assumption based on what Serini has actually seen and heard in this cave.

She's the one taking charge; she is, as of this moment, the leader until someone else takes charge. That's kind of how leadership works.
Yeah but if she knocked out Haley I wouldn't expect her to then refer to Minrah or whoever as the leader. To me this reads like she thinks Haley is in charge in general, including when Roy is up. Which again, I find perfectly fine in itself, it just suggests she hasn't been observing the Order as closely as I assumed.

[Yendor]

Pretty much anytime I hear "Behold!" I am expecting a sad trombone. You did not fail to deliver here!

Well, we can't do any beholding here because of legal reasons.

[Metastachydium]

I don't think so; she's assessing the actions and reactions of the group and correctly identifying the one who is (a) taking charge and (b) giving direction as the leader (or as the ad hoc leader now that the OoTS leader is taken out of the picture with the poison.

The first time she gives direction to anyone is after Serini calls her the leader. Until then, she's just asking obvious questions.

[dancrilis]

And I note that in the last panel, Haley just took an arrow (bolt?) to the knee arch. Haley being awake by the end of 1240 is in doubt.

I think that arrow is just moving past her and hasn't actually moved past her yet - still either way she might be for sleepytown soon.

But Belkar is still awake and even without his ring he likely is decent at jumping.

[RMS Oceanic]

Clever hedge to avoid the Lawyers turning up, Rich. :smallcool:

[Rogan]

Soooo... How long till the first posts of "The giant totaly reads the forum and created this page in order to shut all the predictions down"? And how long till someone pulls the quote off the giant saying this is not what is happening here?
Anyway, it's a nice comic. The way the arrows wobble midair is a bit strange though. It's this just an artistic way to show them being not aimed at all, or is this the effect of some kind of magical protection?

[Doug Lampert]

I'll note that people who read the forums would already know that the bag wouldn't work, but book readers will need the explanation of why no Bloodfeast, so Rich gives it here.

[Rogan]

Yeah but if she knocked out Haley I wouldn't expect her to then refer to Minrah or whoever as the leader. To me this reads like she thinks Haley is in charge in general, including when Roy is up. Which again, I find perfectly fine in itself, it just suggests she hasn't been observing the Order as closely as I assumed.

But if she doesn't know Roy is the leader, why did she go for him first? As an obvious human meele fighter, he doesn't seem to be as dangerous as other members of the order. The dwarfs can actually see in the dark. Haley is an archer, so even without being able to see, she seems to have better odds of hurting someone up in the air.

[Gensan]

Soooo... How long till the first posts of "The giant totaly reads the forum and created this page in order to shut all the predictions down"? And how long till someone pulls the quote off the giant saying this is not what is happening here?
Anyway, it's a nice comic. The way the arrows wobble midair is a bit strange though. It's this just an artistic way to show them being not aimed at all, or is this the effect of some kind of magical protection?

I think it's an artistic way to show that Serini and Sunny are really high up, so the projectiles the Order are shooting/throwing are losing power before reaching them. It also explains why both parties are having trouble hitting the other, due to distance penalties.


But if she doesn't know Roy is the leader, why did she go for him first? As an obvious human meele fighter, he doesn't seem to be as dangerous as other members of the order. The dwarfs can actually see in the dark. Haley is an archer, so even without being able to see, she seems to have better odds of hurting someone up in the air.

Like someone said upthread, I think Serini is assuming that Haley, being the Rogue, is the one in charge. Just like Tarquin did when he assumed that Elan, being the Bard, was in charge. She probably shot Roy with the darts first just in case it took time for the poison to take effect, since he's a Fighter.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'll note that people who read the forums would already know that the bag wouldn't work, but book readers will need the explanation of why no Bloodfeast, so Rich gives it here. Nice point.

But if she doesn't know Roy is the leader, why did she go for him first? ...Haley is an archer, so even without being able to see, she seems to have better odds of hurting someone up in the air. All sensible observations.

I think that arrow is just moving past her and hasn't actually moved past her yet - After a second look, I realize that with a little zoom the bolt is going past, not through, her arch so she dodged three of them. Thanks for getting me to look again.

Other note: Durkon's hammer 'returning' was thanks to the magic of gravity. :smallbiggrin: (@Quild)

[hroþila]

But if she doesn't know Roy is the leader, why did she go for him first? As an obvious human meele fighter, he doesn't seem to be as dangerous as other members of the order. The dwarfs can actually see in the dark. Haley is an archer, so even without being able to see, she seems to have better odds of hurting someone up in the air.
Beats me. Maybe she does mean that Haley is the leader now and she knows that Roy is the primary leader, maybe she targeted Roy specifically because he was going on about how it'd take more than a little darkness to throw them into disarray and she thought it'd be funny.

[Hiro Quester]

It’s uncanny how many of the suggestions folks made last week came into play here (release bloodfeast, Durkon throw hammer, Haley shoot the eye blindly).

I really expected that someone would still have a mundane source of light on them, though. Most games I have had one at low levels, and never got around to removing it when everyone’s casting light spells.

[137beth]

Interesting that Serini referred to Haley as the leader. She might just mean that she's the one actually calling the shots now that Roy's down, but it seems more natural to assume she didn't know Roy was the leader. Which puts a limit to the extent of her knowledge about the Order.

It could also be that she knows Haley is the secondary leader.

Then again, she doesn't know about the conversation where Roy said they can't destroy the final gate.

[theinsulabot]

Serini has been observing events closely enough she even knew about o’chul and miko’s events with the gate. It’s no stretch at all then to assume she knew the order well enough to know that Roy was the leader, so she took him out first, and then Haley was the back up leader.

Basically she like any good rogue decided if she took out the established command structure the rest would fall into disarray. For those who think she assumes Haley is the main leader, if that’s the case, why did she drop Roy first instead of the one with a visible ranged attack?

[deworde]

Wait, can living things survive in a Bag of Holding? I know in Critical Role, Mercer ruled that there's nothing to breathe in there. (RIP Dork the Ox)

[Rogan]

I think it's an artistic way to show that Serini and Sunny are really high up, so the projectiles the Order are shooting/throwing are losing power before reaching them. It also explains why both parties are having trouble hitting the other, due to distance penalties.



Like someone said upthread, I think Serini is assuming that Haley, being the Rogue, is the one in charge. Just like Tarquin did when he assumed that Elan, being the Bard, was in charge. She probably shot Roy with the darts first just in case it took time for the poison to take effect, since he's a Fighter.

Okay, this might be the answer. I thought Sereni would not be that high above, but there is actually no real way to know.

However, this would only mean Haley would be by far the better choice for her first attack. It should not matter to her how long the poison takes to drop Roy. He can't do anything to hurt her. Haley, as an archer, can hurt her if she gets lucky. Going for Roy makes sense if she wants to take out the leader. But if she thinks Haley is the leader... She would need to have another reason.
Maybe she was afraid the big dumb guy with a pointy stick would try to break the "trap door" down by brute strength? Which would hurt Mimmi?

[danielxcutter]

Wait, can living things survive in a Bag of Holding? I know in Critical Role, Mercer ruled that there's nothing to breathe in there. (RIP Dork the Ox)

RAW, a PC has about 10 minutes of air. A lizard could probably make that last longer.



Also yeesh, guess Serini is going to kick their asses. I really can't see anything besides that, unless the IFCC soul deal is based on epic magic.

[TooSoon]

Thor's hammer isn't an artefact? Really? Ugh :smallsigh:

[danielxcutter]

Thor's hammer isn't an artefact? Really? Ugh :smallsigh:

It probably is, but the problem is that the AMF negates the gauntlets and belt required to unlock the hammer's full power and Durkon's basically a religious Aristocrat in an AMF.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I'll note that people who read the forums would already know that the bag wouldn't work, but book readers will need the explanation of why no Bloodfeast, so Rich gives it here.

It also reminds the reader that Bloodfeast exists, so if someone is reading the books out of order and he gets an appearance later it doesn’t seem to come out of nowhere.

[Peelee]

Wait, can living things survive in a Bag of Holding? I know in Critical Role, Mercer ruled that there's nothing to breathe in there. (RIP Dork the Ox)

Mercer is not the arbiter of D&D (no slight to Mercer here) and is defintlitely not the arbiter of OotS. That being said, it stands to reason their should be air in the bag, since if there wasn't, then opening it would create a vacuum. IIRC core rules is that there's an maount of air but it's finite.

Also didn't Mercer DM 5e?mever saw but I imagine he would have done the current edition.

[Schroeswald]

Haley showing off all of her cool skills this book is great.

[Gensan]

Okay, this might be the answer. I thought Sereni would not be that high above, but there is actually no real way to know.

However, this would only mean Haley would be by far the better choice for her first attack. It should not matter to her how long the poison takes to drop Roy. He can't do anything to hurt her. Haley, as an archer, can hurt her if she gets lucky. Going for Roy makes sense if she wants to take out the leader. But if she thinks Haley is the leader... She would need to have another reason.
Maybe she was afraid the big dumb guy with a pointy stick would try to break the "trap door" down by brute strength? Which would hurt Mimmi?

This is actually a better explanation than my "wanted to shoot the Fighter first because he might resist the poison for longer". Her first priority was to cut off any potential for escape and getting Roy out of the way removes their main muscle for killing Mimi and getting out of there.

Not to mention that she would know, if she's really been watching the Order, that running away is their most successful strategy. :smallbiggrin:

[dancrilis]

Mercer is not the arbiter of D&D (no slight to Mercer here) and is defintlitely not the arbiter of OotS. That being said, it stands to reason their should be air in the bag, since if there wasn't, then opening it would create a vacuum. IIRC core rules is that there's an maount of air but it's finite.

Also didn't Mercer DM 5e?mever saw but I imagine he would have done the current edition.

From the SRD:

If living creatures are placed within the bag, they can survive for up to 10 minutes, after which time they suffocate.

So if The Giant is being strict Bloodfeast better hope not too much time has passed since he was last sealed inside.

[jdb-44]

This is getting better and better with every strip!

Absolutely! I know the dialog parts are a necessary part of the story, but I'm ready for some action!

Also, small typo in the second-to-last panel, as Haley says "when theres' no magic".

[Hiro Quester]

Wait, can living things survive in a Bag of Holding? I know in Critical Role, Mercer ruled that there's nothing to breathe in there. (RIP Dork the Ox)

there’s enough air for a humanoid to breathe for about 10 minutes. For a tiny lizard like Bloodfeast, that’s plenty for quite a while.

[Empiar93]

And here we get a better hint at just how incomplete Serini’s information really is. She doesn’t even know who the leader of the party is!
This may in part be a testament to Haley’s character growth, but it also highlights that she may not have been spying on the heroes as much as everyone seems to think. Also the more I think about it the more annoyed I’m getting at Serini’s character, but I won’t bring up the argument in this thread (especially because I’m posting from work).
Disappointing, but expected, that we’re not getting an easy out from the situation in the form of Bloodfeast. I’ll chalk it up to foreshadowing to the dinosaur’s inevitable release.

[kenlund]

Whenever I played D&D and a beholder came up, the consistent strategy was to get long range casters out of range so they could start casting again...and have anyone who could shoot an arrow stay in closer to attack and distract while casters moved away. No way to do that here.
It seems like Belkar would have something prepared he could light on fire to make some light. Didn't he once say something while fighting Miko like "When in doubt, light something on fire"?

[danielxcutter]

Whenever I played D&D and a beholder came up, the consistent strategy was to get long range casters out of range so they could start casting again...and have anyone who could shoot an arrow stay in closer to attack and distract while casters moved away. No way to do that here.
It seems like Belkar would have something prepared he could light on fire to make some light. Didn't he once say something while fighting Miko like "When in doubt, light something on fire"?

Besides the fact that he's kinda moved away from destroying stuff for random lulz, I think he'd be relying on the casters and/or his bag of holding a lot for those things.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Hilarious to me that the page begins with Durkon not calling it a Beholder. In fairness, that‘s probably how most non-D&D types here would describe it too. Of course, from the forum I knew that Belkar‘s plan wasn’t going to work, but part of me was hoping The Giant was going to break the rules just for fun. Guess Bloodfeast will have to wait another day.


Yeah, she's basically pulling that Tarquin thing when he believed that the member of the Order that resembles him the most must also be the leader. And frankly, that's just sad.

Yeah, that’s an interesting parallel. I wonder if Dorukan would have seen Vaarsuvius as the leader of OOTS, etc.

[TRH]

Okay, this might be the answer. I thought Sereni would not be that high above, but there is actually no real way to know.

However, this would only mean Haley would be by far the better choice for her first attack. It should not matter to her how long the poison takes to drop Roy. He can't do anything to hurt her. Haley, as an archer, can hurt her if she gets lucky. Going for Roy makes sense if she wants to take out the leader. But if she thinks Haley is the leader... She would need to have another reason.
Maybe she was afraid the big dumb guy with a pointy stick would try to break the "trap door" down by brute strength? Which would hurt Mimmi?

I mean, that kind of makes sense. He's certainly the biggest damage dealer without magic, and unlike Haley, he doesn't need to guess where the "door" used to be, so he could pick the right square and swing away, while she needs to pick targets in the dark.

[Mike Havran]

Wow, Haley is extremely dextrous (or lucky), since she needs to rely on hearing only (while auntie Serini probably has a Darkvision goggle on), while still paying attention to the dialogue. I wonder how long she keeps up.

[Doug Lampert]

there’s enough air for a humanoid to breathe for about 10 minutes. For a tiny lizard like Bloodfeast, that’s plenty for quite a while.

RIP all the cat-girls I'm about to kill.

Humans "run out of air" when the CO2 level gets too high for us. Breathing sea level air in an air-tight space, there's still plenty of oxygen in the air when the CO2 kills us. (Air is ~20% O2, the CO2 replaces it at roughly 2 CO2 added per 3 O2 lost, the rest of the oxygen becomes part of H2O. The CO2 gets you at a bit more than 1% when you still have circa 85% of the oxygen available, far more than someone in Denver starts with.)

Reptile blood is also hemoglobin based, so they'll probably start having problems at a comparable level of CO2, but if the polymorphed Bloodfeast is cold blooded (which I assume to be the case) then the problems breathing will probably just result in a greatly reduced metabolic level.

Bloodfeast might well be fine down to the point where he ACTUALLY runs out of O2, which means he has circa 7x as long as a mammal with comparable normal needs would have, and he starts off much smaller and lower metabolic rate than the hypothetical person with 10 minutes of air. I could see him being fine for days.

[Fyraltari]

Belkar: Behold!
Sunny: What do you think I am doing?

Also can Sunny actually see them in the dark?


Yeah, but you still closed with a punchline, Elan.
And that's what we expect. :smallbiggrin:
https://s1.qwant.com/thumbr/0x380/b/4/4c499833e165ebf2344ab2df17e97a24766aec6811032e7610 71ab8e51b042/75926fdf873854716921d2868c3eca0a.jpg?u=https%3A%2F %2Fi.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2F75%2F92%2F6f%2F75926 fdf873854716921d2868c3eca0a.jpg&q=0&b=1&p=0&a=0

On the plus side for Durkon, his hammer came back even without magic!

Gravity is a nice mistress?

[Linneris]

Expectations subverted. Bravo, Giant.

[Bookwyrm13]

Would releasing Bloodfeast even be a good idea if it were possible? That chamber doesn't look big enough for him to fit comfortably, and I don't know if the Order has the means to shrink him back down.

[danielxcutter]

Belkar: Behold!
Sunny: What do you think I am doing?

LOL


Also can Sunny actually see them in the dark?

About 99% of aberrations have darkvision and/or blindsight, so yeah.


Would releasing Bloodfeast even be a good idea if it were possible? That chamber doesn't look big enough for him to fit comfortably, and I don't know if the Order has the means to shrink him back down.

The AMF would surpress the PAO, but he'd go right back once he left it until someone breaks the enchantment for good.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Can anybody put a good upper bound on how high up Sunny is? I assume the length of the antimagic field is the limit here, or possibly the throwing distance of the hammer


The way the arrows wobble midair is a bit strange though. It's this just an artistic way to show them being not aimed at all, or is this the effect of some kind of magical protection?Arrows wobble in real life (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer%27s_paradox), it's just arrows are typically moving too fast to see clearly.


It’s uncanny how many of the suggestions folks made last week came into play here (release bloodfeast, Durkon throw hammer, Haley shoot the eye blindly).There's a limit to how unexpected a writer can be while still having the story be consistent.

[danielxcutter]

Can anybody put a good upper bound on how high up Sunny is? I assume the length of the antimagic field is the limit here, or possibly the throwing distance of the hammer.

Well, the hammer's probably based on a Hammer of Thunderbolts. It has a decent range when thrown, but only when the full powers are active. Since the AMF have shut off the gauntlets and belt required for that, it's probably only got the crappy range of non-throwable weapons, which is 10 feet or two squares IIRC. And you start taking large penalties to hit per range increment you go over... so about 50 feet or so?

[Feruk]

There's a limit to how unexpected a writer can be while still having the story be consistent.

There's also a limit as to how unexpected this forum gets - I'd suggest that the overlap is, in large part, down to us - and the readers in general - being relatively predictable on our reactions!

[MartianInvader]

Real talk: Even if Bloodfeast could reach Sunny, that would mean his head would be outside the AMF. That means the baleful polymorph would stop being suppressed, so he'd turn back into a lizard. But then he'd be back within the AMF...

Edit: Also, Serini thinks Haley is the leader. A tantalizing bit of information that she doesn't have complete intelligence on the order.

[Mic_128]

Real talk: Even if Bloodfeast could reach Sunny, that would mean his head would be outside the AMF. That means the baleful polymorph would stop being suppressed, so he'd turn back into a lizard. But then he'd be back within the AMF...

He'd probably stay large enough for long enough for Belkar to climb him to jump at the bee holder.https://static.xx.fbcdn.net/images/emoji.php/v9/t0/1/28/1f41d.png

[CorruptUser]

The comic has a lot of Deus ex Machina moments, but as we all know, "Awesome" makes a great way to pave over plot holes, especially if we have a reveal that seems obvious in retrospect but is otherwise difficult to guess.

Order weakened, surrounded by Tarquin's army and no escape possible? Airship to the rescue!
Order defeated, about to be devoured by vampires? Durkon retakes control!

So whatever happens now, well, I'm sure it'll be good.

[pendell]

Dangit Bloodfeast coming out of the bag WOULD have been a great splash panel. I know, I know, it was never going to happen. Still, we need more metal covers in this strip!

I wonder if that could work if they can ally with sunny? Pull Bloodfeast out of the bag outside the field, then have Sunny switch on AMF. POOF! Instant dinosaur, don't even need to add water.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Thecommander236]

Is Polymorph affected by anti-magic? It is a permanent effect.

[WindStruck]

I can understand why it's being done, but it is funny to me how conspicuously they are avoiding saying the word [REDACTED].

Good thing you didn't say [REDACTED] otherwise we might have been [DATA EXPUNGED].

[Fyraltari]

The comic has a lot of Deus ex Machina moments, but as we all know, "Awesome" makes a great way to pave over plot holes, especially if we have a reveal that seems obvious in retrospect but is otherwise difficult to guess.

Order weakened, surrounded by Tarquin's army and no escape possible? Airship to the rescue!
Order defeated, about to be devoured by vampires? Durkon retakes control!

Neither of these are Dei ex Machinis.

[Windscion]

He'd probably stay large enough for long enough for Belkar to climb him to jump at the bee holder.https://static.xx.fbcdn.net/images/emoji.php/v9/t0/1/28/1f41d.png

And now I'm thinking about the Beeserker (http://www.beeserker.com/).

Also, more relevant, I wonder if the crossbow bolts are poisoned, and how many excellent observations Minrah could make while she is the last to be taken down.

[TRH]

Is Polymorph affected by anti-magic? It is a permanent effect.

Pretty sure it would be. It's instantaneous effects that would not be affected by anti-magic or dispels.

[bunsen_h]

And I note that in the last panel, Haley just took an arrow (bolt?) to the knee arch.

The arrowhead is still visible, so I'm certain that it didn't hit.


The way the arrows wobble midair is a bit strange though. It's this just an artistic way to show them being not aimed at all, or is this the effect of some kind of magical protection?

It could be Sunny using telekinesis.


I really expected that someone would still have a mundane source of light on them, though. Most games I have had one at low levels, and never got around to removing it when everyone’s casting light spells.

Oh, they probably do... stuffed into Bags of Holding.


From the SRD:


So if The Giant is being strict Bloodfeast better hope not too much time has passed since he was last sealed inside.

I can easily imagine that Rich's take would be that it makes very little sense for the amount of air, and the time to suffocation, to be independent of the kind of creature inside the bag. Unless, I suppose, that's an intentional aspect of the enchantment that creates the bag, but I find it hard to believe that someone would intentionally build that factor in.


Gravity is a nice mistress?

Heh.


Arrows wobble in real life (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer%27s_paradox), it's just arrows are typically moving too fast to see clearly.

I think I'd call that a "wiggle" or "flex" rather than a "wobble". "Wobble" implies a more chaotic motion, it seems to me. At any rate, I think the arrow on the right of panel 6 is clearly being deflected.

[hroþila]

Neither of these are Dei ex Machinis.
I like how the pluralization suggests that this hypothetical ancient theatre keeps separate machines for each god that will pop up at different points in the narrative.

[gatemansgc]

Oh well. I was hoping to see Bloodfeast. Maybe next time....

hopefully this means that the giant is planning on using the return of bloodfeast one day!

[KorvinStarmast]

Also didn't Mercer DM 5e?mever saw but I imagine he would have done the current edition. Yes, he morphed his existent Pathfinder (1e) campaign into D&D 5e, and he homebrews heavily. FWIW, the time limit for air in a BoH is the same in 5e as it is in 3.5e.

Edit: Also, Serini thinks Haley is the leader. A tantalizing bit of information that she doesn't have complete intelligence on the order. Haley is certainly a leader in the OoTS. :smallwink: With Roy incapacitated by poison, it's very much "the deputy takes over for the marshal" kind of situation.

[RicB76]

What do we know about the information she has on the Order? It could be that her information is from when Roy was dead, therefore she thinks he's a new addition. Also just be that she's a strong independant female and sees the same traits in Haley. Not sure how they get out of this without detecting the door shenanigans. Does the AMF effect Elans bard songs?

[RatedArgh]

How long has it been (in game time) since Roy was resurrected? Possible she did most of her scrying during the time he was dead?

[LasVegasLawyer]

I can understand why it's being done, but it is funny to me how conspicuously they are avoiding saying the word '[REDACTED]'.

I am only mildly disappointed that Belkar's announcement did not include a verbal pause. As in "Behold! er... what's going on?"

[Fyraltari]

I like how the pluralization suggests that this hypothetical ancient theatre keeps separate machines for each god that will pop up at different points in the narrative.

"While the play does a more than laudable work in exploring its hero's tortured psyche as the consequences for his initial hybris pile on, it really shines thanks to its use of cutting-edge technology. The effects simply fade seamlessly into the spectacle."

Gn. Felix Labienus, theater critic

[Doug Lampert]

Belkar: Behold!
Sunny: What do you think I am doing?

Also can Sunny actually see them in the dark?

60' darkvision is part of the default (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#aberrationType) for aberrations, so if they are within 60' it can.

[TRH]

What do we know about the information she has on the Order? It could be that her information is from when Roy was dead, therefore she thinks he's a new addition. Also just be that she's a strong independant female and sees the same traits in Haley. Not sure how they get out of this without detecting the door shenanigans. Does the AMF effect Elans bard songs?

It's kind of freaky exactly how precise her knowledge of the Sapphire Guard was, to the point where she knew that O-Chul tried to destroy Soon's gem, and presumably that he was prevented from doing so. Seems a little improbable that she would have personally snuck into Azure City just to watch it happen, so it seems safe to assume she either has access to a lot of scrying spells, or else that she's been in contact with someone who does.

Actually, that makes me wonder if she's talked to Eugene at all, because he's got the scrying power, the knowledge of and interest in the Gates and a comparable level of confidence in Roy's ability to beat Xykon.

[Obscuraphile]

It's kind of freaky exactly how precise her knowledge of the Sapphire Guard was, to the point where she knew that O-Chul tried to destroy Soon's gem, and presumably that he was prevented from doing so.

I’m not so sure she had positive knowledge of O-Chul’s past actions so much as she has a highly developed awareness of how a paladin’s mind works and got sort of lucky in her phrasing. She says “promise me you would never destroy a gate under any circumstances” and O-Chul being honorable, and having attempted to destroy a gate in the past, balks.

Edit: wait, never mind. I was forgetting the final panel of that page

[TRH]

I’m not so sure she had positive knowledge of O-Chul’s past actions so much as she has a highly developed awareness of how a paladin’s mind works and got sort of lucky in her phrasing. She says “promise me you would never destroy a gate under any circumstances” and O-Chul being honorable, and having attempted to destroy a gate in the past, balks.

She specifically mentioned that his katana did it, but not that he did it with his katana.

[Windscion]

It's kind of freaky exactly how precise her knowledge of the Sapphire Guard was ...
Any rogue, especially an epic (or near-) one, can seem more knowledgeable than they are. How much of her mistaken impressions are ignorance and how much bias isn't yet clear.

[TRH]

Any rogue, especially an epic (or near-) one, can seem more knowledgeable than they are. How much of her mistaken impressions are ignorance and how much bias isn't yet clear.

Knowing that his weapon destroyed the Gate without him actually doing it is neither biased nor ignorant. That's a pretty specific truth.

[Schroeswald]

It looks like Mr Scruffy noticed something in the penultimate panel and is trying to warn Belkar about it in the final one, I wonder what he noticed.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I think I'd call that a "wiggle" or "flex" rather than a "wobble". "Wobble" implies a more chaotic motion, it seems to me. At any rate, I think the arrow on the right of panel 6 is clearly being deflected.My interpretation is that it's the top of a parabola, with the added oscillatory motion of the arrows added haphazardly.

[doriel]

What do we know about the information she has on the Order? It could be that her information is from when Roy was dead,...

Dammit, you beat to it while I was making the account just to say that!!!!! Haley was indeed the leader at the time, and she made a good job there.
Well, I'll just add that it means she has a backdoor in the cloister spell (and that's consistent with what we know so far)

[Rogan]

My interpretation is that it's the top of a parabola, with the added oscillatory motion of the arrows added haphazardly.

Now that you mention this...
This would require the maximum range of the arrows to be nearly the same than the maximum range of the hammer (without all the magic enchanting the hammer throw).

This seems to be unlikely...

[Wintermoot]

It looks like Mr Scruffy noticed something in the penultimate panel and is trying to warn Belkar about it in the final one, I wonder what he noticed.

My interpretation was just Mr. Scruffy being concerned about where his nap buddy went.

[NerdyKris]

Yeah, she's basically pulling that Tarquin thing when he believed that the member of the Order that resembles him the most must also be the leader. And frankly, that's just sad.

It's also keeping with the character flaw of every member of the Order of the Scribble; believing that they are the most superior class and refusing to work together to complement their abilities and cover weaknesses.

[dancrilis]

I can easily imagine that Rich's take would be that it makes very little sense for the amount of air, and the time to suffocation, to be independent of the kind of creature inside the bag. Unless, I suppose, that's an intentional aspect of the enchantment that creates the bag, but I find it hard to believe that someone would intentionally build that factor in.


It does have the benefit of giving all creatures their own 10 minutes which could be useful.

We also know that potions scale to size (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0923.html) so if magic discounts size for potion impact then it seems reasonable that magic would discount size for bags of holding - and that the text of 10 minutes would remain regardless of creature type/size etc.

Not that I think The Giant is going to 'gotta' Belkar and give have Bloodfeast suffocate - I would see no point in him doing so at least.

[DLcygnet]

Well, since Serini took out the fighter first... I guess it's time for Minrah and her super secret fighter powers to come to the rescue!

Let's see what this kid can do!

[TRH]

It's also keeping with the character flaw of every member of the Order of the Scribble; believing that they are the most superior class and refusing to work together to complement their abilities and cover weaknesses.

I always thought the Class-based chauvinism was just a Soon and Dorukan thing. Girard was more about the power of family than of class, and Lirian just seemed kind of lackadaisical in general. I can't imagine any of the others taking Gate-stealers alive and not even guarding them.

[Crusher]

What do we know about the information she has on the Order? It could be that her information is from when Roy was dead, therefore she thinks he's a new addition. Also just be that she's a strong independant female and sees the same traits in Haley. Not sure how they get out of this without detecting the door shenanigans. Does the AMF effect Elans bard songs?

But then she'd only know about Haley and Belkar, since Roy's period of being dead almost exactly coincided with the Order being split up. If she knows anything about Elan, V or Durkon it'd be evidence she was using Bluff and Sense Motive against O'chul rather than having been scrying on people.

I personally think either is possible. An Epic Rogue is capable of just about anything, but a semi-maimed grandma might also not want to work THAT hard if she doesn't have to.

Edit - An epic rogue would also be capable of epic shirking.

[Raven777]

Seeing high level PCs shut down when you turn off the magic never gets old. :smallbiggrin:

[ATHATH]

Can Belkar still release Bloodfeast by just throwing the bag of holding up high enough for it to leave the antimagic cone? If he throws it pointing downwards, Bloodfeast could fall out of it and into the antimagic cone.

'Course, that'd require a conscious member of the Order to actually be strong enough to throw a bag that high without magical assistance.

[Peelee]

Can Belkar still release Bloodfeast by just throwing the bag of holding up high enough for it to leave the antimagic cone? If he throws it pointing downards, Bloodfeast could fall out and into the antimagic cone.

If things could just fall out that way, there's no guarantee Bloodfeast would fall out first. Unless the bag of holding is otherwise remarkably empty.

[Rogan]

If things could just fall out that way, there's no guarantee Bloodfeast would fall out first. Unless the bag of holding is otherwise remarkably empty.

Plus, getting hit by a falling dinosaur sounds painful. I'm not sure there would be enough room to avoid this.

[ATHATH]

If things could just fall out that way, there's no guarantee Bloodfeast would fall out first. Unless the bag of holding is otherwise remarkably empty.
Well, that'd make for a nice splash panel of all of the random stuff that Belkar's been storing in that bag.

[ATHATH]

Also, does "theres'" have its apostrophe in the wrong place in the second to last panel?

[doriel]

But then she'd only know about Haley and Belkar, since Roy's period of being dead almost exactly coincided with the Order being split up. If she knows anything about Elan, V or Durkon it'd be evidence she was using Bluff and Sense Motive against O'chul rather than having been scrying on people.

I personally think either is possible. An Epic Rogue is capable of just about anything, but a semi-maimed grandma might also not want to work THAT hard if she doesn't have to.

Edit - An epic rogue would also be capable of epic shirking.

Wasn't V casting message to her? She KNOWS about them. How much however ...
Besides, if she was only scrying them when near a gate, then she would know a lot about the order, but not everything.
And I am sure she doesn't know about the gods' decision anyway or else she wouldn't be willing to leave Xikon anywhere near the gate (unless she believes her dungeon is effective keeping them away forever).

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

Belkar says "Behold!" and then nothing happens. So we can say that there are no beholders in this strip. Move along, lawyers.

[Ionathus]

Interesting that Serini referred to Haley as the leader. She might just mean that she's the one actually calling the shots now that Roy's down, but it seems more natural to assume she didn't know Roy was the leader. Which puts a limit to the extent of her knowledge about the Order.

Agreed, I do think this might be a sign she hasn't stopped to fully evaluate the Order.

I also appreciate how they're not falling apart as a team the second Roy is taken off the board!

[anonymsly]

To me, our many-eyed monster’s central anti-magic eye has one big disadvantage - if you can get behind him, you have magic again. Of course, you’re also dealing with an epic-level rogue at that time, but hey! No risk no reward.

If I were Belkar, I’d be very tempted to ask Durkon (or a Durkon/Minrah combo, Minrah’s gotta have decent Str and halflings aren’t that heavy) to fling me up high, outside of the antimagic zone, THEN take out my transfigured lizard and let it drop back into the field so the Bloodfeast can get going. Maybe try to get an eye poke in while I’m up there, especially since I’ve got a ring of feather fall that can extend my airtime a bit. Even getting the critter to look away for a second might let the party evoked fire off an instantaneous-duration spell.

[Windscion]

Knowing that his weapon destroyed the Gate without him actually doing it is neither biased nor ignorant. That's a pretty specific truth.
Invalid inference and invalid reading of my words.

Invalid inference: Serini doesn't need to know that another wielded the blade. She just knows that O'Chul said that his blade did the deed (#663) without elaborating. She knows how to hint at knowledge without needing to possess it. A classic bit of misdirection, and only requires her to be scrying (or spying) on Hinjo at some point when the issue came up, or even sneaking in to read his notes. (Assuming Hinjo writes stuff down, which he probably does, given his responsibilities.)

Invalid reading of my words: I very clearly attribute Serini's mistaken impressions to ignorance and/or paranoia. Knowing something (i.e., who broke the gem) is never, by definition, a matter of ignorance (or paranoia). Your statement is therefore no more than a tautology. Also, irrelevant to the issue at hand. Also? Based on an invalid inference.

Meanwhile, it is blindingly obvious that Serini is missing some crucial information re: the Gods. And this lack of information (a state also known as "ignorance") is causing her to fight people whose goals align with her own.

[denthor]

This one is still just set up material. It made me laugh at least.

[TRH]

Invalid inference and invalid reading of my words.

Invalid inference: Serini doesn't need to know that another wielded the blade. She just knows that O'Chul said that his blade did the deed (#663) without elaborating. She knows how to hint at knowledge without needing to possess it. A classic bit of misdirection, and only requires her to be scrying (or spying) on Hinjo at some point when the issue came up, or even sneaking in to read his notes. (Assuming Hinjo writes stuff down, which he probably does, given his responsibilities.)

Invalid reading of my words: I very clearly attribute Serini's mistaken impressions to ignorance and paranoia. Knowing something (i.e., who broke the gem) is never, by definition, a matter of ignorance (or paranoia). Your statement is therefore no more than a tautology. Also, irrelevant to the issue at hand.

Meanwhile, it is blindingly obvious that Serini is missing some crucial information re: the Gods. And this lack of information (a state also known as "ignorance") is causing her to fight people whose goals align with her own.

If we're now required to ostentatiously declare specific fallacies when conducting a debate, then I'll point out that I wasn't discussing the matter of the Gods and other things Serini doesn't know about the overall situation, so bringing that up is an unnecessary tangent. She clearly doesn't know everything, but I'm concerned with things she does know.

As for what she knows about O-Chul, just knowing that his sword destroyed the Gate would at a minimum require her to be able to eavesdrop on the conversation at the end of Don't Split the Party. We've never seen or heard of the Sapphire Guard keeping notes on the Gates, so your mention of Hinjo keeping such is, in your words, an invalid inference. Their creation myth surrounding the Gates is passed down orally, from what we've seen, so why would even more sensitive information about the current status of the Gates be recorded in a medium that makes it far easier to steal?

And feel free to rag on my inferences as much as you want, but if you are correct about her having gained her knowledge of what happened in Azure City via hearing O-Chul's report, then it wouldn't take a ton of inference on her part to realize that "My sword committed the deed...I will say no further lest I speak ill of the dead" is obvious weasel wording, and what the actual meaning is implied to be. So the most conservative read on her intelligence capabilities tells us she can and has observed the paladins closely, and could likely do the same to the party, in which case she might know rather a lot about their abilities. And if she's done so at all recently, then everyone saying that she's assumed Haley is the real leader of the party may be jumping the gun a little. They might be right, but I'll remain agnostic on that question until after she's got them all trussed up and begins monologuing at them.

[Riftwolf]

Time for the Omega Plan: Halfling bumps

[Quizatzhaderac]

Now that you mention this...
This would require the maximum range of the arrows to be nearly the same than the maximum range of the hammer (without all the magic enchanting the hammer throw).

This seems to be unlikely...Or it would require Rich not drawing things to scale. Let's assume Rich wanted to depict two arrows (shot literally blindly) missing, a hammer not going far enough up, and the target. Realistically those four things would be very far apart.

If done with a big panel, we would have mostly empty space and waste a lot of paper and ink in the books for a panel of middling importance.

If done with a small panel, the missiles would be easy to miss. Details on Serini would be hard to make out.



'Course, that'd require a conscious member of the Order to actually be strong enough to throw a bag that high without magical assistance.Durkon got his hammer up high enough that it would have left the cone at anything but it's highest point.

[Rogan]

Or it would require Rich not drawing things to scale. Let's assume Rich wanted to depict two arrows (shot literally blindly) missing, a hammer not going far enough up, and the target. Realistically those four things would be very far apart.

If done with a big panel, we would have mostly empty space and waste a lot of paper and ink in the books for a panel of middling importance.

If done with a small panel, the missiles would be easy to miss. Details on Serini would be hard to make out.

Durkon got his hammer up high enough that it would have left the cone at anything but it's highest point.

Not sure if I agree about the missing arrows. I mean, they could still miss while flying in a straight line. See the arrows and bolts missing / being dodged by Haley.

[JNinja]

When did Mr. Scruffy get out of the bag? He isn’t shown on panel from when Belkar puts him in with Bloodfeast in #1202 until the Order’s downtime in #1230. I know we’d notice if Bloodfeast had also escaped the bag because it’s hard to miss a Tyrranosaurus, but I wonder if it is possible for him to get out on his own (when the bag is working)

[Ornithologist]

Good on Serini for listening to her subordinates.

[Rogan]

Not sure if I agree about the missing arrows. I mean, they could still miss while flying in a straight line. See the arrows and bolts missing / being dodged by Haley.

I just noticed another thing, but this is hard to judge. There aren't enough panels where the projectiles are visible to be sure. But It seems like the arrows start to change direction as soon as they leave the AMF eye cone.
So maybe there is a wind wall or something like that up there?

[Fish]

Belkar's going to be in a panic if he can't get Bloodfeast out of the bag, and Serini is going to see a kindred spirit in him.

[ebarde]

I feel like she should have took out Haley first, since her flat footed AC would be terrible. Also, unless the legacy weapon would still work somehow, he has no ranged attacks.

[TRH]

I feel like she should have took out Haley first, since her flat footed AC would be terrible. Also, unless the legacy weapon would still work somehow, he has no ranged attacks.

She tried. I actually am not entirely sure how Haley's so good at dodging projectiles she can't even see, but eh.

[Rogan]

She tried. I actually am not entirely sure how Haley's so good at dodging projectiles she can't even see, but eh.

But she shot Roy first. Going for Haley first might have made her surprised and prevented the dodging we see now.

[Patterned_Pike]

Any chance Minrah is good with a bow? We know she's multi classed, and that she was a guard before. Maybe she is a fighter and thus has the requisite weapon proficiency to hit Sunny's eye. Even getting them to blink or briefly look away could give V enough time to cast passwall.

[JonahFalcon]

Er, did Durkon once AGAIN not have the proper cleric spells readied?

[DLcygnet]

She tried. I actually am not entirely sure how Haley's so good at dodging projectiles she can't even see, but eh.

Uncanny Dodge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#uncannyDodge) - "a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so."
Also, Evasion (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0019.html)! :smallwink:

[Rogan]

Er, did Durkon once AGAIN not have the proper cleric spells readied?

He is inside of an AntiMagicField. What kind of spell should he have in this situation?

[Drake Halfmoon]

I think Serini is making a serious tactical error.

On one hand, targeting Haley makes sense because she is the de facto leader, and if she goes down, the Order falls into chaos. Also, she's the only one with a ranged attack that can actually reach her opponents.

On the other hand, Haley cannot see Sunny without visual aid, so she is not a real threat. It would make more sense to take out Durkon and Minrah since they have Darkvision. Otherwise, they'll be able to properly guide her into making a successful hit.

And now that Haley has proven herself to be a fairly difficult target, Serini is just wasting ammunition. If she doesn't change targets or try a new method of attack, the Order will find a way out, and the Halfling Rogue loses her advantage.

Of course, I'm not an experienced DnD player, so my assessment might be lacking.

Thoughts?

[TRH]

I think Serini is making a serious tactical error.

On one hand, targeting Haley makes sense because she is the de facto leader, and if she goes down, the Order falls into chaos. Also, she's the only one with a ranged attack that can actually reach her opponents.

On the other hand, Haley cannot see Sunny without visual aid, so she is not a real threat. It would make more sense to take out Durkon and Minrah since they have Darkvision. Otherwise, they'll be able to properly guide her into making a successful hit.

And now that Haley has proven herself to be a fairly difficult target, Serini is just wasting ammunition. If she doesn't change targets or try a new method of attack, the Order will find a way out, and the Halfling Rogue loses her advantage.

Of course, I'm not an experienced DnD player, so my assessment might be lacking.

Thoughts?

The best Minrah and Durkon can do is tell Haley which square the Beholder is in every round, at which point all of her attacks will still have a 50% miss chance. If both Minrah and Durkon go down, the threat ends, but it also ends if Haley drops. So it's a question of neutralizing one character or two. And although Haley is harder to hit than the other two, she is also far more likely to fail a save against poison, given Clerics' high fortitude saves and the Dwarven racial bonus.

In any case, although I'm guessing Rich would write it so that a direct hit on the center eye would at least temporarily suspend the AMF, by Rules as Written there would be no way to end that effect short of killing the Beholder. It would take a while for a single rogue to do that without sneak attack, weapon enchantments and fighting a 50% miss chance, while Serini simply needs to land one hit on Haley, in all likelihood. And It's not like she'll have Dexterity 30+ or anything, so even with Uncanny Dodge, her AC can't be too hard for a higher-level attacker to beat.

[Lvl45DM!]

This is one of the funniest strips in a while, and thats saying a fair bit.
"Good example Hayley!" will have me giggling for a while

[Blatt]

You kidding me?! All parties have a week's iron rations, a rope, a ten-foot pole AND A LANTERN!

Interesting to note Mr Scruffy is really just a ***** cat, possibly with class levels by now.

[Blatt]

{scrubbed}

[Dion]

He is inside of an AntiMagicField. What kind of spell should he have in this situation?

Anti-anti-magic-field.

It’s a thing.

[skim172]

RIP all the cat-girls I'm about to kill.

Humans "run out of air" when the CO2 level gets too high for us. Breathing sea level air in an air-tight space, there's still plenty of oxygen in the air when the CO2 kills us. (Air is ~20% O2, the CO2 replaces it at roughly 2 CO2 added per 3 O2 lost, the rest of the oxygen becomes part of H2O. The CO2 gets you at a bit more than 1% when you still have circa 85% of the oxygen available, far more than someone in Denver starts with.)

Reptile blood is also hemoglobin based, so they'll probably start having problems at a comparable level of CO2, but if the polymorphed Bloodfeast is cold blooded (which I assume to be the case) then the problems breathing will probably just result in a greatly reduced metabolic level.

Bloodfeast might well be fine down to the point where he ACTUALLY runs out of O2, which means he has circa 7x as long as a mammal with comparable normal needs would have, and he starts off much smaller and lower metabolic rate than the hypothetical person with 10 minutes of air. I could see him being fine for days.

So bags of holding are basically Pokeballs?

This is my takeaway.


Also, not being a D&D player, I've got a question: What are the rules regarding Belkar using his fantastic sense of smell to locate and target the Legally-Distinct Tentacled Eye-Orb with a thrown dagger?

I have to imagine that an Eyeball Monster that spends most of its time underground probably smells quite distinct. And Belkar's sense of smell may be nearly equivalent to his sense of sight.

[InvisibleBison]

Also, not being a D&D player, I've got a question: What are the rules regarding Belkar using his fantastic sense of smell to locate and target the Legally-Distinct Tentacled Eye-Orb with a thrown dagger?

I have to imagine that an Eyeball Monster that spends most of its time underground probably smells quite distinct. And Belkar's sense of smell may be nearly equivalent to his sense of sight.

Belkar appears to have the scent (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#scent) ability (which is not something that halflings ordinarily have, hence the uncertainty). Unfortunately, it's not particularly useful in this situation. Scent has a range of only 30 feet, and it's entirely possible that Serini and Sunny are farther away than that. Even if they were in range, scent would only let Belkar know their general direction relative to him; he'd have to be within 5 feet of them to discern their exact location.

[Kamunami]

This might seem like a dumb question, and wouldn't make the biggest difference right now, but does V not have darkvision? I'm remembering several times Durkon used it but I can't place a time V did.

[Raven777]

This might seem like a dumb question, and wouldn't make the biggest difference right now, but does V not have darkvision? I'm remembering several times Durkon used it but I can't place a time V did.

Elves have Low-Light Vision. Not quite the same.

Low-Light Vision: Characters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. In gamer terms, you could say they get twice as much mileage out of a light source for cleaning the fog of war.

Darkvision: Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all. They see in the dark as in plain day (but usually in black and white).

[Borris]

Does the AMF effect Elans bard songs?
All Bardic Music effects are either spell-like or supernatural, so none of them will work in an anti-magic field.

[Doug Lampert]

You kidding me?! All parties have a week's iron rations, a rope, a ten-foot pole AND A LANTERN!

Yep, they've got all of that in their 8 or so bags of holding.

[Wraithfighter]

...its an interesting situation they're in right now. The... Eye Tyrant seems to not be taking offensive actions himself, beyond maintaining the anti-magic zone (I guess that's all he's able to do at once?), and while Serini has oodles of tricks up her sleeve, she's not exactly an offensive powerhouse. And, for obvious reasons, basically every member of the Order of the Stick is shut down right now.

Hell, even Belkar can't leap up to her, that's a magic item that lets him do that!

I have a feeling that this is going to devolve into conversation in a bit. Serini is almost certainly in a position where she can win martially, but not very quickly, and eventually one of the OOTS might say something that gets her talking to them too.

...no guarantees, of course, that the conversation would go smoothly. Serini hasn't exactly been acting the most rationally, after all...

[bunsen_h]

Well, that'd make for a nice splash panel of all of the random stuff that Belkar's been storing in that bag.

An allosaur falling from 60' would probably make a splash, yes.


Time for the Omega Plan: Halfling bumps

Is that like "Dalek bumps" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do-wDPoC6GM)?

[Monstar3014]

What if Belkar ran up the wall a little, THEN emptied his bag?

[danielxcutter]

...its an interesting situation they're in right now. The... Eye Tyrant seems to not be taking offensive actions himself, beyond maintaining the anti-magic zone (I guess that's all he's able to do at once?), and while Serini has oodles of tricks up her sleeve, she's not exactly an offensive powerhouse. And, for obvious reasons, basically every member of the Order of the Stick is shut down right now.

Hell, even Belkar can't leap up to her, that's a magic item that lets him do that!

I have a feeling that this is going to devolve into conversation in a bit. Serini is almost certainly in a position where she can win martially, but not very quickly, and eventually one of the OOTS might say something that gets her talking to them too.

...no guarantees, of course, that the conversation would go smoothly. Serini hasn't exactly been acting the most rationally, after all...

The second that Serini stops focusing on Haley, it's game over. I suspect that the only reason she might get to talk to them at all is because of that. Assuming she ends up listening at all.


What if Belkar ran up the wall a little, THEN emptied his bag?

Nah, not without magic items. That cone is obnoxiously large and it covers most of the room.

[Yuki Akuma]

Interesting to note Mr Scruffy is really just a ***** cat, possibly with class levels by now.

Mr. Scruffy is almost certainly Belkar's Animal Companion - which is an Ex ability, so yeah it still works in an Antimagic Field.

We don't know the Belkster's precise level, but the Class and Level Geekery thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?623429-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XVIII-Everyone-s-an-Expert) estimates him to be a 14th level Ranger. This would make Mr. Scruffy the equivalent to a 7th level Druid's Animal Companion - so he has 4 extra Hit Dice, +4 AC, +2 Strength and Dexterity, 3 bonus tricks, the Share Spells ability, Evasion, a +4 bonus on Will saves against certain mind control effects, and Belkar can order him as a free action.

By this metric Mr. Scruffy is a pretty dang strong kitty.

[RMS Oceanic]

I think Serini's targeting priorities are valid, even if you can argue she should target someone else.

Reason to take out Haley first: The one best equipped to fight back against Serini

Reason to take out Roy first: The one best equipped to provide means of escape, i.e. attack Mimi.

I figure Serini thinks she can win as long as the Order can't retreat. And that's probably a fair assumption, clever edge-of-the-coin solutions notwithstanding.

[RMS Oceanic]

This might seem like a dumb question, and wouldn't make the biggest difference right now, but does V not have darkvision? I'm remembering several times Durkon used it but I can't place a time V did.

Elves only have low-light vision. They can see by distant campfires or starlight. There is literally no light right now, so darkvision is king.

[King of Nowhere]

antimagic can also be blocked by cover. if only belkar still had his lead sheet... outside of a bag of holding, i mean.
and scruffy may be able to climb the walls.
there are still many ways the order can get out of this.

regarding serini's intelligence, i don't see why she has to have been scrying. as a rogue, she's much more likely to have a gather information check. she's also shown to have many friends and allies, so "somebody told her" is the most likely option.

[Joebob]

Bloodfeast might well be fine down to the point where he ACTUALLY runs out of O2, which means he has circa 7x as long as a mammal with comparable normal needs would have, and he starts off much smaller and lower metabolic rate than the hypothetical person with 10 minutes of air. I could see him being fine for days.

not only that, but if i recall, lizards (and birds) are much more efficient at extracting oxygen from the air than humans are, due to their vastly different cardiovascular system.

[ianm1981]

It made me very happy that the badly thrown darts in the wall around the dartboard in strip 1226 are explained. Serini is just not all that good a shot with the blowgun.

[Rogan]

antimagic can also be blocked by cover. if only belkar still had his lead sheet... outside of a bag of holding, i mean.
and scruffy may be able to climb the walls.
there are still many ways the order can get out of this.

regarding serini's intelligence, i don't see why she has to have been scrying. as a rogue, she's much more likely to have a gather information check. she's also shown to have many friends and allies, so "somebody told her" is the most likely option.

This was asked and answered before. The lead shield was last seen in the hands of the azure resistance (or whatever their name is).

[danielxcutter]

And I don't really think it is blocked by cover? Even if it was, Belkar isn't holding that sheet right now so it's a moot point.

[Yuki Akuma]

And I don't really think it is blocked by cover? Even if it was, Belkar isn't holding that sheet right now so it's a moot point.

As an emanation, it is blocked by total cover. The lead sheet probably wouldn't qualify, but hiding behind a large rock would.

[danielxcutter]

As an emanation, it is blocked by total cover. The lead sheet probably wouldn't qualify, but hiding behind a large rock would.

Beholder AMFs are cones, and I'm pretty sure Serini isn't stupid enough to lure them into places with convenient rocks to hide behind.

Edit: Oh wait cone effects are burst or emanations. Still, nothing to hide behind.

[Fyraltari]

Beholder AMFs are cones, and I'm pretty sure Serini isn't stupid enough to lure them into places with convenient rocks to hide behind.

Edit: Oh wait cone effects are burst or emanations. Still, nothing to hide behind.

So that's why she took Roy out first! He's big enough to serve as a cover!

At least for Belkar and the dwarves.

[Riftwolf]

not only that, but if i recall, lizards (and birds) are much more efficient at extracting oxygen from the air than humans are, due to their vastly different cardiovascular system.

Tangentially related; some crocodiles intentionally suffocate themselves. The increased carbon dioxide is flushed through the digestive system to increase acidity and help break down hard-to-digest bone and gristle.
Bloodfeast is probably going to be fine, but when he comes out, he'll be hangry .

[Shining Wrath]

I think V gets more verbose when nervous.
Even in pitch blackness, Haley's AC is pretty good. Or maybe Serine's aim is not that good? If she's put a lot of effort into UMD, that implies items to bump Charisma, which may mean not as much money spent on bumping up Dexterity. It'd be an odd choice for a Rogue, but we've already established repeatedly that OotS people are not high-optimization 3.5 characters.

[dancrilis]

An allosaur falling from 60' would probably make a splash, yes.


It can probably take 6d6 damage without too much issue.

[danielxcutter]

It can probably take 6d6 damage without too much issue.

I think the Order'd take more than that.

[The MunchKING]

regarding serini's intelligence, i don't see why she has to have been scrying. as a rogue, she's much more likely to have a gather information check. she's also shown to have many friends and allies, so "somebody told her" is the most likely option.

Then problem is there was literally only a few hundred beings that were there, and all of them except 3 ended that plot point in an afterlife of some sort. Xykon and Redcloak were unlikely to tell her, and O-Chul never met her (as far as we know. a fun part of memory loss potions is they could have had that conversation dozens of times (http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff1700/fc01699.htm) and she gets info he forgets he gives.)

My best guess is that the oaths were non-interference as long as the Gates stood, so when she saw that Soon's Gate had fallen, she used some kind of "contact a dead spirit" spell to ask him and he told her so sh could prepare for Xykon.

[Ionathus]

Elves have Low-Light Vision. Not quite the same.

Low-Light Vision: Characters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. In gamer terms, you could say they get twice as much mileage out of a light source for cleaning the fog of war.

Darkvision: Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all. They see in the dark as in plain day (but usually in black and white).

Every time I interact with or learn new things about 3e/3.5e, I'm simply flabbergasted how many sorta-kinda-similar terms and features they had for things that could've all fit into a single box. Elan's joke on the Mechane about Roy being either Staggered/Stunned/Dazed/Dazzled comes to mind. I'm not sure if those are all actually 3.5e terms, but after 10 minutes paging through the SRD I'd certainly believe it!

[danielxcutter]

Every time I interact with or learn new things about 3e/3.5e, I'm simply flabbergasted how many sorta-kinda-similar terms and features they had for things that could've all fit into a single box. Elan's joke on the Mechane about Roy being either Staggered/Stunned/Dazed/Dazzled comes to mind. I'm not sure if those are all actually 3.5e terms, but after 10 minutes paging through the SRD I'd certainly believe it!

They actually are all from 3.5e, and all in Core at that yes. Stun and Daze are the real killers though; and I mean that somewhat literally considering how easy it is to take down an opponent inflicted with those.

[pendell]

As far as bags of holding, while it's not 3.5 or OOTS , I always had a soft spot for the Hackmaster version , which posited that all bags of holding were , in reality, portals to another dimension, and all of the bags were connected. Like doors into the same, large room.

As I recall, this led to an adventure where the heroes went into one bag of holding and adventured across bag-world, collecting the treasures other adventurers put in their bags of holding. This came to a screeching halt when they came across a band of human soldiers who had also been put in a bag of holding, entire -- they had set up a fortress and had gathered in the contents of the adventurers original bags into the stronghold, thus denying the PC team of their loot. Now THAT was a sneaky GM trick :smallamused:. This also provided fodder for an entire campaign called "Bagwar" , in which the team fights a war inside the bag of holding against the occupying soldiers to get their goodies back.

IF OOTS has a similar setup, it would explain why Bloodfeast could survive in the bag of holding more or less indefinitely. It's not the insides of a cloth bag, but an entire other dimension. Bloodfeast might die of starvation or dehydration, but not by suffocating.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[TRH]

Then problem is there was literally only a few hundred beings that were there, and all of them except 3 ended that plot point in an afterlife of some sort. Xykon and Redcloak were unlikely to tell her, and O-Chul never met her (as far as we know. a fun part of memory loss potions is they could have had that conversation dozens of times (http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff1700/fc01699.htm) and she gets info he forgets he gives.)

My best guess is that the oaths were non-interference as long as the Gates stood, so when she saw that Soon's Gate had fallen, she used some kind of "contact a dead spirit" spell to ask him and he told her so sh could prepare for Xykon.

Yeah, I mean, let me put it this way: as far as we know, the Order doesn't even know that Miko destroyed the Gate. Serini quite likely knows more than they do about the end of this particular Gate.

[dancrilis]

I think the Order'd take more than that.

I don't think there are rules for animals falling on people but if they follow the same rules as objects then we are looking at a maximum of 20d6 which would hurt (and might kill some of the lower hit point people) but not that likely cause a splash - raise dead would likely be fine.

[danielxcutter]

As far as bags of holding, while it's not 3.5 or OOTS , I always had a soft spot for the Hackmaster version , which posited that all bags of holding were , in reality, portals to another dimension, and all of the bags were connected. Like doors into the same, large room.

As I recall, this led to an adventure where the heroes went into one bag of holding and adventured across bag-world, collecting the treasures other adventurers put in their bags of holding. This came to a screeching halt when they came across a band of human soldiers who had also been put in a bag of holding, entire -- they had set up a fortress and had gathered in the contents of the adventurers original bags into the stronghold, thus denying the PC team of their loot. Now THAT was a sneaky GM trick :smallamused:. This also provided fodder for an entire campaign called "Bagwar" , in which the team fights a war inside the bag of holding against the occupying soldiers to get their goodies back.

IF OOTS has a similar setup, it would explain why Bloodfeast could survive in the bag of holding more or less indefinitely. It's not the insides of a cloth bag, but an entire other dimension. Bloodfeast might die of starvation or dehydration, but not by suffocating.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

How would they put items into the bag if they're already in bag world?

Also how do they do like, anything if they've lost all their valuables besides the armor on their back? I'm pretty sure that makes wizards less than useless, for one.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[pendell]

How would they put items into the bag if they're already in bag world?


You can't put a bag of holding inside a bag of holding; it causes a reality-warping explosion. But the thing about bags of holding (in the story) is that, although they lead into another dimension, most adventurers never really think about this, nor explore the dimension further than they can reach in with their arms. But if you go INTO bagworld (without bags of holding, natch, you have to carry things the old-fashioned way), you can go walking in any direction -- might be ten meters, might be a thousand kilometers -- you'll eventually find a bunch of goodies just sitting there, right underneath the entrance to someone else's bag of holding. Once you've got some way to reliably navigate, you simply scoop it up and walk back to your own "bag zone". Then you leave the bag of holding, secure in the knowledge that you have a lot more resources to draw on than you did before this little adventure ...

... until you reach into the bag of holding and find there's nothing there. You go in and, in place of your treasure pile, there's now a castle inhabited by a band of mercenaries you had stuffed into another bag of holding years earlier in lieu of paying ...

... a band of mercenaries who now have all your goodies inside the keep, and they're armed with your magic weapons, armour, and items.



Also how do they do like, anything if they've lost all their valuables besides the armor on their back? I'm pretty sure that makes wizards less than useless, for one.

Yes, yes it does. :smallamused:

Although if you know anything about the party wizard (played by Brian Van Hoose, former DM and rules lawyer extraordinaire), not only does he have it coming many times over but this will prove only a temporary inconvenience.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[The MunchKING]

How would they put items into the bag if they're already in bag world?

The way I understand it was they looted the stuff other adventurers put in THIER bags of holding, they presumably carted it off with normal carrying methods.

[Vikenlugaid]

Yeah, she's basically pulling that Tarquin thing when he believed that the member of the Order that resembles him the most must also be the leader. And frankly, that's just sad.
Well, Roy did the same before both of them... With Thog XD

[Precure]

Wouldn't that just makes them useless, if anyone can enter a bag and stole other people's stuff?

[jdb-44]

Also, does "theres'" have its apostrophe in the wrong place in the second to last panel?

I mentioned this earlier in the thread. It does.

Question is, does Rich look in these threads and fix typos that are pointed out? I thought that'd happened a couple of times, but it was a long time ago.

[bunsen_h]

I don't think there are rules for animals falling on people but if they follow the same rules as objects then we are looking at a maximum of 20d6 which would hurt (and might kill some of the lower hit point people) but not that likely cause a splash - raise dead would likely be fine.

Wait -- are you saying that if a character is hit by a falling object, the most damage they can take is 20d6 regardless of the size / weight / distance fallen of that object? I thought that the "falling damage" limit involved the character falling, and I don't think that Newton's third law (equal and opposite reactions) should apply.

[pendell]

Wouldn't that just makes them useless, if anyone can enter a bag and stole other people's stuff?

Not really.
1) You have to know it's possible. It's not common knowledge, and those who do know have a vested interested in keeping this little artifact of bag knowledge secret.

2) You have to be able to travel into a bag and out again. This probably isn't a good idea if you're not already an experienced adventurer with a high-level party. This IS an extraplanar adventure after all, with all that entails. At the very least, you need to have some way of navigating in the world or you'll simply wander off and never find your way back to the prime material plane.

3) Bagworld is *big*. It's not like you can just walk in and dive into a pile of gold. It takes searching and time to find other people's caches. Even unguarded, the odds that a random bag raiding party will happen to stumble on one particular stash is pretty small. Nor are all caches still claimed by a living party. If you find a cache, it's entirely possible the adventuring party it belonged to are all dead and the bag itself stuffed in a coffin or a dragon's hoard. So if its raided no one will notice.

So I would say the bags are MOSTLY secure. It's pretty rare for anyone to even notice, which is why the scam works. And when someone does notice, the likelihood they will figure out what the problem is and do something about it are even smaller. Who thinks about how bags of holding really work? You've also got to assume that the user of a bag is probably an adventuring party inside a dungeon, and they may not survive discovering their bag is empty, since the lifesaving equipment they were keeping for an emergency suddenly isn't there.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[danielxcutter]

Not really.
1) You have to know it's possible. It's not common knowledge, and those who do know have a vested interested in keeping this little artifact of bag knowledge secret.

2) You have to be able to travel into a bag and out again. This probably isn't a good idea if you're not already an experienced adventurer with a high-level party. This IS an extraplanar adventure after all, with all that entails. At the very least, you need to have some way of navigating in the world or you'll simply wander off and never find your way back to the prime material plane.

3) Bagworld is *big*. It's not like you can just walk in and dive into a pile of gold. It takes searching and time to find other people's caches. Even unguarded, the odds that a random bag raiding party will happen to stumble on one particular stash is pretty small. Nor are all caches still claimed by a living party. If you find a cache, it's entirely possible the adventuring party it belonged to are all dead and the bag itself stuffed in a coffin or a dragon's hoard. So if its raided no one will notice.

So I would say the bags are MOSTLY secure. It's pretty rare for anyone to even notice, which is why the scam works. And when someone does notice, the likelihood they will figure out what the problem is and do something about it are even smaller. Who thinks about how bags of holding really work? You've also got to assume that the user of a bag is probably an adventuring party inside a dungeon, and they may not survive discovering their bag is empty, since the lifesaving equipment they were keeping for an emergency suddenly isn't there.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

I'm guessing most of your party wasn't Good-aligned?

[dancrilis]

Wait -- are you saying that if a character is hit by a falling object, the most damage they can take is 20d6 regardless of the size / weight / distance fallen of that object?

Yes.



Falling Objects

Just as characters take damage when they fall more than 10 feet, so too do they take damage when they are hit by falling objects.

Objects that fall upon characters deal damage based on their weight and the distance they have fallen.

For each 200 pounds of an object’s weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage).

Objects smaller than 200 pounds also deal damage when dropped, but they must fall farther to deal the same damage. Use Table: Damage from Falling Objects to see how far an object of a given weight must drop to deal 1d6 points of damage.

For each additional increment an object falls, it deals an additional 1d6 points of damage.

Objects weighing less than 1 pound do not deal damage to those they land upon, no matter how far they have fallen.


Now you could read that to say that if a 16 ton creature falls on you from 5 feet it does no damage from 10 feet it does 80d6 damage and from 210 feet it would do 100d6 damage - but I read the maximum as the maximum damage total rather then the maximum additional damage due to height of fall.

But I would say it is something that one should likely consult the DM on - if it does do 80d6 damage from a 10 foot fall then that would likely be a suitable method of taking out any opponent The Order has, particularly as the allosaur can likely jump heigher then 10foot (once the spell is broken).

For the record 16 tons is taken from the maximum for a huge creature and the minimum for a gargantuan creature, not sure there the dinosaur would sit honestly - a base Tyrannosauruses is huge by they can reach gargantuan size I am assuming that the allosaurous is similar.

If it is only huge then it could be as light as 2 tons which seems low to me (and would change that 80d6 down to a more managable 10d6).

[MrToad]

Not being a huge rules buff, I asked a friend about the FIVE bolts in the final panel. Serini is awesome, but that's still a lot of attacks in one round! He replied:


Yeah, it's easily possible. First, she needs the Rapid Reload feat so she can reload her crossbow as a free action. Then she has to pile up 5 attacks.

If her base attack bonus is +16 (a rogue would normally max out at +15 at level 20, but perhaps she's mixed in some other levels there, or is above level 20?) then she'd get 4 "normal" attacks, and then the Rapid Shot feat (take one extra shot but then all shots are at -2) would give her an extra attack, for five.

Or, if her BAB is only in the +11 - +15 range, she'd get 3 normal attacks, plus one for Rapid Shot, plus one if she Hasted herself (with a potion, boots of speed, etc.). Or it's possible that one of the bolts is from a Manyshot (a single attack roll that lets her fire two bolts at once).

I'm guessing that the most likely option is BAB in the 11-15 range, Rapid Shot, and Haste.


All this to say, once again I'm totally impressed by Rich's attention to detail! He doesn't just draw one more bolt because it looks cool, although it does look cool. I've been reading since day one, and I continue to love OOTS! Thank you, Giant!

[pendell]

I'm guessing most of your party wasn't Good-aligned?

It wasn't my party that did this; it was the Untouchable Trio + 1 in the strip. And believe it or not, the entire party has the alignment lawful good, despite robbing other people's bags, burning down pretty much every town they come across, murdering any number of NPCs, stuffing mercenaries into bags of holding in lieu of payment, and using NPC torchbearers as trap-bait in dungeons. This is a testament both to the party leader (who is a rules lawyer and the former DM) and the haplessness of the current DM. I think this is one of the shenanigans Rich is at pains to call out in his own strip -- the way that 'lawful good' is treated as no more than a team jersey, and how anything goes against green-skinned humanoids, for no other reason than they were the Team Evil jersey.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[danielxcutter]

It wasn't my party that did this; it was the Untouchable Trio + 1 in the strip. And believe it or not, the entire party has the alignment lawful good, despite robbing other people's bags, burning down pretty much every town they come across, murdering any number of NPCs, stuffing mercenaries into bags of holding in lieu of payment, and using NPC torchbearers as trap-bait in dungeons. This is a testament both to the party leader (who is a rules lawyer and the former DM) and the haplessness of the current DM. I think this is one of the shenanigans Rich is at pains to call out in his own strip -- the way that 'lawful good' is treated as no more than a team jersey, and how anything goes against green-skinned humanoids, for no other reason than they were the Team Evil jersey.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Wait, is Hackmaster a comic or something?

Also I agree with your point.

[Doug Lampert]

...its an interesting situation they're in right now. The... Eye Tyrant seems to not be taking offensive actions himself, beyond maintaining the anti-magic zone (I guess that's all he's able to do at once?),

If he's anything like a very similar bit of WotC IP, he's got lots of other actions available, a short range bite attack (low damage and useless without closing), and a bunch of other eye rays (none of which work on anything in the Anti-magic zone). If someone gets out of the zone, he/she/it can really go to town hitting them with 1d4 nasty effects per round.


Wait, is Hackmaster a comic or something?

It's a comic book series and an RPG. The RPG based on the comics which are based on D&D.

[Precure]

Not really.
1) You have to know it's possible. It's not common knowledge, and those who do know have a vested interested in keeping this little artifact of bag knowledge secret.

I mean, this is only possible if we assume that none of the people who discovered such a loop-hole were honest enough to warn other people. But I guess that setting was designed to be morally bankrupt from the start, considering how supposedly LG people act in it.

[pendell]

Wait, is Hackmaster a comic or something?


Hackmaster is a role-playing game based off D&D. This particular misadventure is chronicled in the comic strip Knights of the Dinner Table (https://www.kenzerco.com/product_info.php?products_id=723&osCsid=1adbd48ce49925318aa725e72e2b3994).

Originally, Hackmaster was simply a parody of D&D in the comic strip, but as it grew in popularity they actually spent the money to create the game, so it now really does exist (https://www.kenzerco.com/hackmaster/). It's essentially a Gygaxian take on the rules and is far more lethal than D&D 3.5 and up. Better have a lot of spare character sheets.



I mean, this is only possible if we assume that none of the people who discovered such a loop-hole were honest enough to warn other people.


If I were playing a lawful good character in that world, I would still be reluctant to reveal the secret for a couple of reasons.

1) Does it mean fewer people using bags of holding, or does it mean bag raiding becomes commonplace?
2) Do only good people use bags of holding, or do evil villains sometimes store THEIR artifacts there? Pity if someone like Tarquin suddenly finds his +5 Sword of Doom is missing.
2) If the BBEG owns a bag of holding, that might just prove an entry point into their stronghold they don't expect.

It's the same reason intelligence agencies in the real world don't expose every flaw in, say, HTTPS/SSL cryptography of which they are aware. If you're a law-abiding person whose duty is to enforce the law and protect the innocent, of course it's your duty to expose and patch any security flaws. If you're a rogue or an adventurer or a spy, on the other hand, sometimes it's useful to have a card up one's sleeve.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[danielxcutter]

Hackmaster is a role-playing game based off D&D. This particular misadventure is chronicled in the comic strip Knights of the Dinner Table (https://www.kenzerco.com/product_info.php?products_id=723&osCsid=1adbd48ce49925318aa725e72e2b3994).

Originally, Hackmaster was simply a parody of D&D in the comic strip, but as it grew in popularity they actually spent the money to create the game, so it now really does exist (https://www.kenzerco.com/hackmaster/). It's essentially a Gygaxian take on the rules and is far more lethal than D&D 3.5 and up. Better have a lot of spare character sheets.

Gygaxian?


If I were playing a lawful good character in that world, I would still be reluctant to reveal the secret for a couple of reasons.

1) Does it mean fewer people using bags of holding, or does it mean bag raiding becomes commonplace?
2) Do only good people use bags of holding, or do evil villains sometimes store THEIR artifacts there? Pity if someone like Tarquin suddenly finds his +5 Sword of Doom is missing.
2) If the BBEG owns a bag of holding, that might just prove an entry point into their stronghold they don't expect.

It's the same reason intelligence agencies in the real world don't expose every flaw in, say, HTTPS/SSL cryptography of which they are aware. If you're a law-abiding person whose duty is to enforce the law and protect the innocent, of course it's your duty to expose and patch any security flaws. If you're a rogue or an adventurer or a spy, on the other hand, sometimes it's useful to have a card up one's sleeve.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

Hmm, worth thinking about, but I don't think LG characters would merrily loot the world inside them anyways.

[Doug Lampert]

If he's anything like a very similar bit of WotC IP, he's got lots of other actions available, a short range bite attack (low damage and useless without closing), and a bunch of other eye rays (none of which work on anything in the Anti-magic zone). If someone gets out of the zone, he/she/it can really go to town hitting them with 1d4 nasty effects per round.

Replying to myself. One trick the related D&D monster can pull is to use it's telekinesis eye ray to throw things from outside the anti-magic cone at things inside the anti-magic cone.

[dancrilis]

Gygaxian?


In the spirit of Gygax.

He was a harsh dungeon master by all accounts.

[danielxcutter]

Replying to myself. One trick the related D&D monster can pull is to use it's telekinesis eye ray to throw things from outside the anti-magic cone at things inside the anti-magic cone.

Or in other words, the Order has exactly 1/999,999.999999999 to win this with combat.

[pendell]

Gygaxian?

Already swordsaged, but yes. Brutal. Lethal. No-save traps such as those found in the Tomb of Horrors. Not to be played if you plan on growing attached to your characters :smallamused:.



Hmm, worth thinking about, but I don't think LG characters would merrily loot the world inside them anyways.

Oh, I agree, LG characters wouldn't loot indiscriminately. But if you're facing an enemy who uses a bag of holding, and you have some way to locate their bag zone, then they have a vulnerability you know about and they don't.

All warfare is based on deception and misdirection , Paladin honor codes notwithstanding. Being good means you don't harm innocents. It doesn't mean you tell evil enemies what their vulnerabilities are. Well, not unless you're Goku :smallamused:

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Yuki Akuma]

You can't put a bag of holding inside a bag of holding; it causes a reality-warping explosion.

Nope, not in D&D 3.5. Nothing happens if you put a Bag of Holding inside a Bag of Holding.

The trouble starts when you put a Bag of Holding inside a Portable Hole, or vice versa. :smalltongue:

Really, they only mention that interaction. That's it. No other extradimensional spaces interact in 3.5e, it's weird.

[danielxcutter]

Already swordsaged, but yes. Brutal. Lethal. No-save traps such as those found in the Tomb of Horrors. Not to be played if you plan on growing attached to your characters :smallamused:.

My impression of Gygaxian design is "unfair, and possibly fiat made up on the spot" to be honest.


Oh, I agree, LG characters wouldn't loot indiscriminately. But if you're facing an enemy who uses a bag of holding, and you have some way to locate their bag zone, then they have a vulnerability you know about and they don't.

All warfare is based on deception and misdirection , Paladin honor codes notwithstanding. Being good means you don't harm innocents. It doesn't mean you tell evil enemies what their vulnerabilities are. Well, not unless you're Goku :smallamused:

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Eh, the deception part I can get. I'm just saying that whatever the Hackmaster party you mentioned was doing doesn't count as LG by any standards.


Nope, not in D&D 3.5. Nothing happens if you put a Bag of Holding inside a Bag of Holding.

The trouble starts when you put a Bag of Holding inside a Portable Hole, or vice versa. :smalltongue:

Really, they only mention that interaction. That's it. No other extradimensional spaces interact in 3.5e, it's weird.

Though a Sphere of Annihilation has rather devastating effects when exposed to a Gate - or worse, according to Elder Evils, a Well of Many Worlds.

[ATHATH]

You kidding me?! All parties have a week's iron rations, a rope, a ten-foot pole AND A LANTERN!


... Which are all inside of their bag(s) of holding.

[danielxcutter]

... Which are all inside of their bag(s) of holding.

Yeah, Eye Tyrants are BS like that.

[pendell]

Eh, the deception part I can get. I'm just saying that whatever the Hackmaster party you mentioned was doing doesn't count as LG by any standards.


Totally agree. They're CE in my book.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Hasric]

Nice point.
All sensible observations.
After a second look, I realize that with a little zoom the bolt is going past, not through, her arch so she dodged three of them. Thanks for getting me to look again.

Other note: Durkon's hammer 'returning' was thanks to the magic of gravity. :smallbiggrin: (@Quild)

Any sufficiently complex science is indistinguishable from magic. Until we get a unified theory of gravity, we can still call it magic, right?

[danielxcutter]

Totally agree. They're CE in my book.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

How do they even qualify for LG at all, even with rules lawyering?

[Anitar]

How do they even qualify for LG at all, even with rules lawyering?

Because everyone who knows they don't act LG has been murdered, burned to the ground, or stuffed into a Bag of Holding, of course.

[hungrycrow]

If I were playing a lawful good character in that world, I would still be reluctant to reveal the secret for a couple of reasons.

1) Does it mean fewer people using bags of holding, or does it mean bag raiding becomes commonplace?
2) Do only good people use bags of holding, or do evil villains sometimes store THEIR artifacts there? Pity if someone like Tarquin suddenly finds his +5 Sword of Doom is missing.
2) If the BBEG owns a bag of holding, that might just prove an entry point into their stronghold they don't expect.

It's the same reason intelligence agencies in the real world don't expose every flaw in, say, HTTPS/SSL cryptography of which they are aware. If you're a law-abiding person whose duty is to enforce the law and protect the innocent, of course it's your duty to expose and patch any security flaws. If you're a rogue or an adventurer or a spy, on the other hand, sometimes it's useful to have a card up one's sleeve.


Respectfully,

Brian P.
I'm not sure if it's really lawful good to make the calculation that it's acceptable for innocent people to be unknowingly robbed if you can rob your own enemies.

[bunsen_h]

Now you could read that to say that if a 16 ton creature falls on you from 5 feet it does no damage from 10 feet it does 80d6 damage and from 210 feet it would do 100d6 damage - but I read the maximum as the maximum damage total rather then the maximum additional damage due to height of fall.

But I would say it is something that one should likely consult the DM on - if it does do 80d6 damage from a 10 foot fall then that would likely be a suitable method of taking out any opponent The Order has, particularly as the allosaur can likely jump heigher then 10foot (once the spell is broken).

Those results -- especially for the example you give of a 16-ton creature falling 5 feet -- are so nonsensical that I'd be strongly inclined to treat the calculation as a guide, not a rule, if I were DMing with them. They work well enough for "normal" situations, but I think they break down in extreme cases. Kind of like how the Newtonian models of mass/force/speed/acceleration are good enough for most purposes we normally encounter, but when you get to atomic scales you have to look at quantum mechanics, and at velocities in the realm of the speed of light, you have to take relativity into account.

[Nymrod]

Not being a huge rules buff, I asked a friend about the FIVE bolts in the final panel. Serini is awesome, but that's still a lot of attacks in one round! He replied:


Yeah, it's easily possible. First, she needs the Rapid Reload feat so she can reload her crossbow as a free action. Then she has to pile up 5 attacks.

If her base attack bonus is +16 (a rogue would normally max out at +15 at level 20, but perhaps she's mixed in some other levels there, or is above level 20?) then she'd get 4 "normal" attacks, and then the Rapid Shot feat (take one extra shot but then all shots are at -2) would give her an extra attack, for five.

Or, if her BAB is only in the +11 - +15 range, she'd get 3 normal attacks, plus one for Rapid Shot, plus one if she Hasted herself (with a potion, boots of speed, etc.). Or it's possible that one of the bolts is from a Manyshot (a single attack roll that lets her fire two bolts at once).

I'm guessing that the most likely option is BAB in the 11-15 range, Rapid Shot, and Haste.


All this to say, once again I'm totally impressed by Rich's attention to detail! He doesn't just draw one more bolt because it looks cool, although it does look cool. I've been reading since day one, and I continue to love OOTS! Thank you, Giant!

Actually epic level bonus to attack does not modify base attack bonus and thus does not give additional attacks. This is probably Rapid Shot + a haste potion. She seems to chuck potions like me on the final boss of a CRPG.

[danielxcutter]

Actually epic level bonus to attack does not modify base attack bonus and thus does not give additional attacks. This is probably Rapid Shot + a haste potion. She seems to chuck potions like me on the final boss of a CRPG.

Or maybe just the weapon has a Speed enchantment. Or she used a wand.

[Shining Wrath]

I'm not sure if it's really lawful good to make the calculation that it's acceptable for innocent people to be unknowingly robbed if you can rob your own enemies.

Let Mr. Google tell you about Zero Day Defects. Then ask how many the GRU or NSA may be keeping in reserve.

[Steven S]

Couldn't the PCs just invoke Jones and Rodriguez? Also, is Sunny the same Beholder from episode #32?

[Nymrod]

Or maybe just the weapon has a Speed enchantment. Or she used a wand.

Honestly if you are using potions and wands constantly, doing something so expensive as a Speed enchant doesn't make much sense when haste is so much cheaper.

[KorvinStarmast]

By this metric Mr. Scruffy is a pretty dang strong kitty. Which Blackwing appreciates in a lot of ways (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1020.html).

It made me very happy that the badly thrown darts in the wall around the dartboard in strip 1226 are explained. Serini is just not all that good a shot with the blowgun. Makes sense.

I thought that the "falling damage" limit involved the character falling, and I don't think that Newton's third law (equal and opposite reactions) should apply. In a world filled with magic, physics (Terran) is a debatable constant.

Until we get a unified theory of gravity, we can still call it magic, right? Nope, since we are able to confine ourselves in OoTS land to a Terrestial frame of reference. You don't need to get all loop with gravity until you head into extraterrestrial zones and frames of references. It's called a gravitational constant for a good and sufficient reason: within the appropriate frame of reference, it's reliable. OoTS isn't an outer space adventure comic.

Also, is Sunny the same Beholder from episode #32? Not likely. The Order has been at it for less than two years (in universe), since strip 1, while Serini and the Scribblers set things up about 60 years ago, give or take a year (in universe). It is more that Serini and Eyegore have been getting along for years.

[Petrocorus]

Yeah, she's basically pulling that Tarquin thing when he believed that the member of the Order that resembles him the most must also be the leader. And frankly, that's just sad.
In this particular case, is this a matter of physical resemblance?
Would Tarquin had assumed Elan was the leader if he hadn't been his son?


How long has it been (in game time) since Roy was resurrected? Possible she did most of her scrying during the time he was dead?
That's a good point.

[arimareiji]

And in another universe, these people (https://youtu.be/66ZKf6qeG54) were merrily going to town on the head of a pin. :smallbiggrin:

Too many points worth responding to, so I wussed out and skipped a few pages of posts to say: I can easily believe last panel shows the bolt whizzing past her foot, but if all of them completely missed Haley's grunt is misleading. (Yes it could also make sense as a grunt of exertion, but it'd still be misleading.)

Put me down for "One of them nicked her on the way past", maybe the one by her hand.

Last but not least, with apologies to anyone who may have already said something that I skipped: Does anyone get why Elan says "Great example, Haley!" in last panel? It seems like it's in response to the grunt, but I don't get why.

Edit: Adding one last thought

Further apologies to anyone who already pointed this out, but Roy previously assuming someone was leader based on being the same class (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html) is a closer parallel than Tarquin's wishful thinking about his son.

[hungrycrow]

And in another universe, these people (https://youtu.be/66ZKf6qeG54) were merrily going to town on the head of a pin. :smallbiggrin:

Too many points worth responding to, so I wussed out and skipped a few pages of posts to say: I can easily believe last panel shows the bolt whizzing past her foot, but if all of them completely missed Haley's grunt is misleading. (Yes it could also make sense as a grunt of exertion, but it'd still be misleading.)

Put me down for "One of them nicked her on the way past", maybe the one by her hand.

Last but not least, with apologies to anyone who may have already said something that I skipped: Does anyone get why Elan says "Great example, Haley!" in last panel? It seems like it's in response to the grunt, but I don't get why.

I think the last panel is suggesting that we'd expect a comedic line but instead get an action shot with Haley. Although paradoxically pointing that out is also a comedic line.

I don't think Haley was shot. The wound would be more obvious in that case, and Elan would be acting concerned. Definitely just exertion from doing cool backflip dodges.

[dancrilis]

Last but not least, with apologies to anyone who may have already said something that I skipped: Does anyone get why Elan says "Great example, Haley!" in last panel? It seems like it's in response to the grunt, but I don't get why.


In the final panel you expect a joke but instead we got an action scene (and a joke).

[Quizatzhaderac]

Those results -- especially for the example you give of a 16-ton creature falling 5 feet -- are so nonsensical that I'd be strongly inclined to treat the calculation as a guide, not a rule, if I were DMing with them. They work well enough for "normal" situations, but I think they break down in extreme cases. Another great example, is how it's essentially impossible to see the sun under 3.5e spot rules.

[WanderingMist]

"While the play does a more than laudable work in exploring its hero's tortured psyche as the consequences for his initial hybris pile on, it really shines thanks to its use of cutting-edge technology. The effects simply fade seamlessly into the spectacle."

Gn. Felix Labienus, theater critic
Is that real quote? Also, "hubris" not "hybris".


I think I'd call that a "wiggle" or "flex" rather than a "wobble". "Wobble" implies a more chaotic motion, it seems to me. At any rate, I think the arrow on the right of panel 6 is clearly being deflected.
"Wiggle" is far more chaotic than "wobble". "Wobble" is generally connected with the term "slight"/

It's kind of freaky exactly how precise her knowledge of the Sapphire Guard was, to the point where she knew that O-Chul tried to destroy Soon's gem, and presumably that he was prevented from doing so. Seems a little improbable that she would have personally snuck into Azure City just to watch it happen, so it seems safe to assume she either has access to a lot of scrying spells, or else that she's been in contact with someone who does.

Actually, that makes me wonder if she's talked to Eugene at all, because he's got the scrying power, the knowledge of and interest in the Gates and a comparable level of confidence in Roy's ability to beat Xykon.
She wouldn't have needed to. They all had monitoring devices that showed the status of the other Gates, and the second Soon's blinked out she probably immediately scried the area to see what had happened.

How do they even qualify for LG at all, even with rules lawyering?
By everyone else being so much worse! I don't actually know, I've never read it.


Not likely. The Order has been at it for less than two years (in universe), since strip 1, while Serini and the Scribblers set things up about 60 years ago, give or take a year (in universe). It is more that Serini and Eyegore have been getting along for years.
It could be, because that beholder is the "actor" beholder, i.e., they're just portraying the character "Sunny" in OotS.

[skim172]

Nope, not in D&D 3.5. Nothing happens if you put a Bag of Holding inside a Bag of Holding.

The trouble starts when you put a Bag of Holding inside a Portable Hole, or vice versa. :smalltongue:

Really, they only mention that interaction. That's it. No other extradimensional spaces interact in 3.5e, it's weird.

:smallannoyed:: "Where the hell are we?"
:smalltongue:: "My A-Hole." (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2009/06/16/episode-1141-how-deep-does-the-a-hole-go/)
:smallannoyed:: "Goddammit, Red Mage."

[InvisibleBison]

Another great example, is how it's essentially impossible to see the sun under 3.5e spot rules.

Though this is often cited as an example of the absurdity of the 3.5 rules, it's not actually correct. The Spot rules are used to detect a creature under two circumstances: It is hiding, or it is difficult to see for some other reason. Even if we ignore the fact that the sun isn't a creature, neither of those circumstances apply, so the sun can be seen just fine.

[TRH]

She wouldn't have needed to. They all had monitoring devices that showed the status of the other Gates, and the second Soon's blinked out she probably immediately scried the area to see what had happened.


That would only tell her what happened after the Gate blew, though. You can't scry the recent past as far as I know.

[pendell]

How do they even qualify for LG at all, even with rules lawyering?

I don't know if it is exactly comparable, but in Nethack you get +1 to your alignment score for every evil monster you killed, and in a full Ascension playthrough the body count would be in the thousands. You could murder every shopkeeper and every peaceful creature in the game and still have a pious alignment.

Of course, if playing lawful , your god could get angry and strip benefits (AC gained from offering at altars, telepathy, won't answer prayers unless to punish you). But then, divine anger was appeasable by sacrifice. So, yes, the solution to murder was simply more murder until the scales balanced.

Of course , the truly cynical would simply tame a dungeon monster such as a purple worm and allow it to eat the shopkeeper. You're not held responsible for the actions of your pet, so this was totally consequence-free, even for lawfuls.

Ah, the 90s. I sometimes wonder how anyone lived long enough to have kids.

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

[Shining Wrath]

I don't know if it is exactly comparable, but in Nethack you get +1 to your alignment score for every evil monster you killed, and in a full Ascension playthrough the body count would be in the thousands. You could murder every shopkeeper and every peaceful creature in the game and still have a pious alignment.

Of course, if playing lawful , your god could get angry and strip benefits (AC gained from offering at altars, telepathy, won't answer prayers unless to punish you). But then, divine anger was appeasable by sacrifice. So, yes, the solution to murder was simply more murder until the scales balanced.

Of course , the truly cynical would simply tame a dungeon monster such as a purple worm and allow it to eat the shopkeeper. You're not held responsible for the actions of your pet, so this was totally consequence-free, even for lawfuls.

Ah, the 90s. I sometimes wonder how anyone lived long enough to have kids.

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

Per Roy's time in heaven and discussion with the Gatekeeper Deva, there's a loophole almost as big available in OotSverse: you get credit for good intentions. Which in other universes pave the road to Hell. I do think we're going to find out that killing lots of Goblins is not how the Giant is going to redeem Belkar and make him chaotic good.

[Peelee]

Per Roy's time in heaven and discussion with the Gatekeeper Deva, there's a loophole almost as big available in OotSverse: you get credit for good intentions.

Source? I seem to remember that you get credit for trying. In fact, the closest thing they get to intent is that the idea of responsibility being central is enough to be Lawful (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html), but the means by which he achieves it is Chaotic, which would be pretty Neutral. Or, in other words, without actions (ie "trying"), intent does not give much credit.

Construction for the road to the Nine Hells seems to still have the green light.

[RatElemental]

Wait -- are you saying that if a character is hit by a falling object, the most damage they can take is 20d6 regardless of the size / weight / distance fallen of that object? I thought that the "falling damage" limit involved the character falling, and I don't think that Newton's third law (equal and opposite reactions) should apply.

If it helps, 20d6 does an average of 70 damage which is enough to kill pretty much anyone below level 10 in one hit, and if you're 11+ you're so awesome that your mere existence is enough reason for someone to be able to cast Legend Lore to learn about you.

Also, 70 damage is over the threshold for massive damage, which means you gotta make a fort save to not instantly die from the shock.

[WanderingMist]

:smallannoyed:: "Where the hell are we?"
:smalltongue:: "My A-Hole." (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2009/06/16/episode-1141-how-deep-does-the-a-hole-go/)
:smallannoyed:: "Goddammit, Red Mage."
You've linked the wrong comic. You want the previous one for that quote.

That would only tell her what happened after the Gate blew, though. You can't scry the recent past as far as I know.

It doesn't need to scry the recent past, it only needs to scan right now. What I'm saying is, she scried immediately after the gate was destroyed and saw O-Chul standing there, paralyzed, about to strike it but without his sword.

[Ranadiel]

Well the Order sure is in a pickle this time. At this point the options that I can think of are:

Escape the room
Talk Senri down
Get a character or magic item above the cone

Option 1 seems unlikely since Roy is the only one who probably has the necessary strength check to make a new hole, and even that is questionable since his Belt of Giant's Strength would be disabled.
Option 2 is also unlikely at the moment since they don't even know it is her that is attacking them, so they don't know she is someone they want to negotiate with.
Option 3 would be trivial if they had Blackwing with them as he could implement "Plan Raging Death Beast" by flying the bag of holding above the anti-magic field and emptying it. Might be possible for Mr. Scruffy to do it? Stat checks don't look great for him, but probably better than anyone else in the Order?

[hungrycrow]

It doesn't need to scry the recent past, it only needs to scan right now. What I'm saying is, she scried immediately after the gate was destroyed and saw O-Chul standing there, paralyzed, about to strike it but without his sword.

The gate exploded when it was destroyed.

[TRH]

It doesn't need to scry the recent past, it only needs to scan right now. What I'm saying is, she scried immediately after the gate was destroyed and saw O-Chul standing there, paralyzed, about to strike it but without his sword.

You realize Scry has a 1-hour casting time, right?

[danielxcutter]

I don't know if it is exactly comparable, but in Nethack you get +1 to your alignment score for every evil monster you killed, and in a full Ascension playthrough the body count would be in the thousands. You could murder every shopkeeper and every peaceful creature in the game and still have a pious alignment.

Of course, if playing lawful , your god could get angry and strip benefits (AC gained from offering at altars, telepathy, won't answer prayers unless to punish you). But then, divine anger was appeasable by sacrifice. So, yes, the solution to murder was simply more murder until the scales balanced.

Of course , the truly cynical would simply tame a dungeon monster such as a purple worm and allow it to eat the shopkeeper. You're not held responsible for the actions of your pet, so this was totally consequence-free, even for lawfuls.

Ah, the 90s. I sometimes wonder how anyone lived long enough to have kids.

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

That… sounds dumb.

[The MunchKING]

That would only tell her what happened after the Gate blew, though. You can't scry the recent past as far as I know.

Also the area was shielded from scrying. It was no Cloister, but it would probably still last for a while.

[King of Nowhere]

Then problem is there was literally only a few hundred beings that were there, and all of them except 3 ended that plot point in an afterlife of some sort. Xykon and Redcloak were unlikely to tell her, and O-Chul never met her (as far as we know. a fun part of memory loss potions is they could have had that conversation dozens of times (http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff1700/fc01699.htm) and she gets info he forgets he gives.)

My best guess is that the oaths were non-interference as long as the Gates stood, so when she saw that Soon's Gate had fallen, she used some kind of "contact a dead spirit" spell to ask him and he told her so sh could prepare for Xykon.

yeah, but the problem with scrying is that it would have required looking specifically at a specific moment, a specific place, that was heavily protected against scrying anyway. however you put it, the information on what happened exactly at soon's gate is not easy to get.
yes, "contact a dead spirit" is another possibility. i'd count that as "a friend told her"

[mjasghar]

That… sounds dumb.

It’s also pretty in line with gygax views especially later on when he became quite bitter. I won’t go into specifics as it’s been discussed many many times on the forums, but his views tended to ignore the need for Good in LG.

[skim172]

You've linked the wrong comic. You want the previous one for that quote.

Yes, but while that comic has a great punchline, it doesn't include the explanation about dropping two portable holes - A and B - into each other to remove oneself from the universe, so I thought if I didn't link the latter page, it would just look like I was just making a crude joke that had no relevance.

[danielxcutter]

It’s also pretty in line with gygax views especially later on when he became quite bitter. I won’t go into specifics as it’s been discussed many many times on the forums, but his views tended to ignore the need for Good in LG.

I... see, then.

[dancrilis]

I... see, then.

I wouldn't be experienced in his ways as others but I believe his paladins were effectively land owning nobles - so judge, jury and executioner on their land (or on their liege lord's land).

They were good in the sense that they were working for the betterment of society and lawful in that they had rules they followed and which they were accountable too - but if a goblin village settled on your land without permission and started raiding around them, yes you can absolutely wipe them all out including the children and no you don't need to worry about why they showed up in the first place unless that also becomes your problem.

[danielxcutter]

I wouldn't be experienced in his ways as others but I believe his paladins were effectively land owning nobles - so judge, jury and executioner on their land (or on their liege lord's land).

They were good in the sense that they were working for the betterment of society and lawful in that they had rules they followed and which they were accountable too - but if a goblin village settled on your land without permission and started raiding around them, yes you can absolutely wipe them all out including the children and no you don't need to worry about why they showed up in the first place unless that also becomes your problem.

Well that's not super Evil I guess? It still seems less bad than the stuff the old Sapphire Guard got up to before O-Chul joined.

[Fyraltari]

Well that's not super Evil I guess? It still seems less bad than the stuff the old Sapphire Guard got up to before O-Chul joined.

Mass-murder isn't more acceptable when you do it at home rather than at somebody else's.

[dancrilis]

Well that's not super Evil I guess? It still seems less bad than the stuff the old Sapphire Guard got up to before O-Chul joined.

Personal opinion - he gets a worse wrap then he deserves for alignment stuff.

Effectively the game came out of wargaming where two (or more) players have an army and roll dice (or use another method) to determine who wins - 'do my elves beat your orcs clatter clatter clatter got a six so yes', when world building there was your side and the other side - adventurers fight monsters and bandits so monsters and bandits are evil.

It wasn't intended to deal with 'insert whatever real world issue you are thinking of here' but as it got more popular and particularly in more recent years when it effectively went mainstream people decided that it should be more complex 'why are there bandits, and what causes intelligent beings to loot and burn villages' then it was intended to be - they then look back and judge the early game based on their particular more modern view of the game.

But others might have a different take on things.

[danielxcutter]

I think it's fair to say that people hadn't had time yet to think of the implications.

[KorvinStarmast]

It’s also pretty in line with gygax views especially later on when he became quite bitter. I won’t go into specifics as it’s been discussed many many times on the forums, but his views tended to ignore the need for Good in LG. If you actually do read the AD&D 1e PHB, and the AD&D 1e DMG, you will note the "you cannot do this are you are no longer a paladin" clause: iot is very explicit. Mind you, there is the atonement discussion in the DMG that allows a way back if a Paladin falls, but it's not a "free, I win" button. It requires the DM to arrive at a suitable path of redemption. Again, you'll find that lawful and good are both necessary to be a paladin. When he threw in the Cavalier in Unearthed Arcana, codes and restrictions increased even more and a Paladin had to be a Cavalier class first under that framework.

His later remarks were somewhat a response to the idiocy that somehow, in a game where combat is often a center piece, people had taken the attitude of "if you kill you can't be good" (which is inane) but in defense of his critics, he also quoted Chivington - which I found disturbing when I read that post (IIRC it was on dragonsfoot).

Nethack has/had the same problem as a lot of dungeon crawls; the only way to keep score simply was via body count, gold count and treasure count. That's a limitation of Computer games. And I'll repeat that element: it's about keeping score, and getting stuff (leveling up?) when you score a certain number of points.

[danielxcutter]

If you actually do read the AD&D 1e PHB, and the AD&D 1e DMG, and you note the "you cannot do this are you are no longer a paladin" clause (though there is the atonement discussion in the DMG that allows a way back, but it's not a "free, I win" button) you'll find that lawful and good are both necessary to be a paladin. Likewise, when he threw in the Cavalier in Unearthed Arcana, codes and restrictions increased even more.

His later remarks were somewhat a response to the idiocy that somehow, in a game where combat is often, people had gone all "if you kill you can't be good" (which is inane) but in defense of his critics, he also quoted Chivington which I found disturbing when I read that post (IIRC it was on dragonsfoot).

Nethack has/had the same problem as a lot of dungeon crawls; the only way to keep score simply was via body count and gold count and treasure count. That's a limitation of Computer games.

I suppose that becomes more prominent the more you flesh your opponents out as actual characters.

[Dion]

I think it's fair to say that people hadn't had time yet to think of the implications.

Agreed. The whole concept of good and evil was pretty new in 1974, and was mostly an academic discipline limited to a few French university professors.

it’s really a pretty amazing thing that Gygax had even heard of it.

I think we owe a debt of gratitude to Gygax for introducing the concept of good and evil to all of us.

[Fyraltari]

Agreed. The whole concept of good and evil was pretty new in 1974, and was mostly an academic discipline limited to a few French university professors.

it’s really a pretty amazing thing that Gygax had even heard of it.

I think we owe a debt of gratitude to Gygax for introducing the concept of good and evil to all of us.

May I (extended) sig that?

[Dion]

May I (extended) sig that?

Feel free!

Though if I were honest I’d give it a 50/50 chance of changing to {scrubbed}. It turns out the French are real-world people. As an American, learning this was a big surprise for me.

(Also, because because I turn into a bit of a jerk in alignment arguments, and I need to learn to breath deeply and think about the comic strip and Star Wars.)

[Fyraltari]

Though if I were honest I’d give it a 50/50 chance of changing to {scrubbed}. It turns out the French are real-world people. As an American, learning this was a big surprise for me.
It's okay, I'm still not 100% you people aren't some sort of giant TV show.

[Dion]

It's okay, I'm still not 100% you people aren't some sort of giant TV show.

Not everything is on TV in America.

But everything that matters is on TV.

[pendell]

If you actually do read the AD&D 1e PHB, and the AD&D 1e DMG, you will note the "you cannot do this are you are no longer a paladin" clause: iot is very explicit. Mind you, there is the atonement discussion in the DMG that allows a way back if a Paladin falls, but it's not a "free, I win" button. It requires the DM to arrive at a suitable path of redemption. Again, you'll find that lawful and good are both necessary to be a paladin. When he threw in the Cavalier in Unearthed Arcana, codes and restrictions increased even more and a Paladin had to be a Cavalier class first under that framework.

His later remarks were somewhat a response to the idiocy that somehow, in a game where combat is often a center piece, people had taken the attitude of "if you kill you can't be good" (which is inane) but in defense of his critics, he also quoted Chivington - which I found disturbing when I read that post (IIRC it was on dragonsfoot).

Nethack has/had the same problem as a lot of dungeon crawls; the only way to keep score simply was via body count, gold count and treasure count. That's a limitation of Computer games. And I'll repeat that element: it's about keeping score, and getting stuff (leveling up?) when you score a certain number of points.

I think this is the One you're talking about (https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11762&start=77)

UPDATE: The question Gygax was answering.



Gary,

I had a situation come up. The group had been ambushed by a group of Ogres, and managed to fight them off and capture the remaining one. They questioned it(By tying it upside down and hanging it by its feet from a tree.) They learned that it was part of the assualt group that had just attacked a keep some days before. And this PC group was part of the defense of the keep. The paladin in the group, once finding out that no more harm will come from this tribe. That this is the last ogre, decides to execute the Ogre. Their mission is to get to the highfolk, and thus they dont have time to drag a ogre to authorities. Its clear the ogre will only slow them down. The Dwarf who was doing the questioning, gets pissed at the Paladin for jumping in and finishing off his prisoner. Walks over to the Paladins horse and ...

Phoebewedh walks over to Ivric's horse and slits its throat.
"Don't tarry when you run to catch up with us.
If you ever so much as interfere with my prisoners again I will gut you like a pig and feed you to my boar. " he says to the paladin.

I explain to the character that this is not a good act(the dwarf.), I am thinking that he needs an alignment change to CN from this act. Furthermore killing a Paladin of Heironeous's warhorse isn't going to sit lightly with the paladin, and likely a duel to the death will take place here. What would you do in htis situation(the dwarf is CG).




That is wasn't the paladin's warhorse makes the matter less serious, but only marginally so. the paladin's honor was besmirched by the dwarf, and as the DM I would call that to the attention of the player of the paladin if there was less than great umbrage taken. To allow the incident to pass without punishing the offending dwarf would be a dark stain on the honor of the paladin.

Paladins are not stupid, and in general there is no rule of Lawful Good against killing enemies. The old addage about nits making lice applies. Also, as I have often noted, a paladin can freely dispatch prisoners of Evil alignment that have surrrendered and renounced that alignment in favor of Lawful Good. They are then sent on to their reward before thay can backslide :lol:

Cheers,
Gary


The fact that he's got a smiley at the end suggests he's joking, and I'm not quite sure how to take that. *As written*, he seems to be writing Paladins as if they were nobles of the middle ages, concerned for honor, perfectly willing to kill commoners for slights to their honor and justified in doing so. Although in fairness I don't think anyone of any alignment would simply let it pass if you murdered their horse in front of them.

Killing surrendered prisoners was a big no-no in 1974. It was a no-no in 1945. Hell's bells, it was a no-no going back as far as we've had articles governing warfare. Not just from altruism but from rational economics. Noble prisoners can be ransomed while common prisoners, if they aren't willing to change sides, could be put to forced labor. The attitude Gygax of killing evil so they wouldn't back slide sounds like a parody of the Spanish Inquisition, or something from the bad old days (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caedite_eos._Novit_enim_Dominus_qui_sunt_eius.) of the medieval era.

No one at my table kills surrendered prisoners and, outside of severe mitigating circumstances, keeps an LG alignment. It is an evil act even if it is absolutely necessary (can't guard prisoners, deep in enemy stronghold, can't take them along and don't have any other way to neutralize them). That would have been my attitude in the 1980s as well. The only reason it wouldn't have been in the 70s is because I was too young to run a table at that point.

Thing about Gygax -- the attitude he describes is realistic if you're roleplaying paladins as medieval crusaders. The question is, who are you playing D&D with, and what for? Are you trying to recreate a medieval world with medieval attitudes a la the Society for Creative Anachronism, or are you preparing young adolescents with the attitudes they will need to deal with the real world they live in?

Gygax looks like he's going for #1. Clearly Rich Burlew is more interested in #2.

Although, again, that smiley suggests he may have been ironic or joking. Maybe someone who knows more about the context can shed more light.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Fyraltari]

No one at my table kills surrendered prisoners and, outside of severe mitigating circumstances, keeps an LG alignment. It is an evil act even if it is absolutely necessary

To clarify: at your table, anyone commiting any evil acts loses their good alignment or is killing surrendering foes a special case? Or did you mean "kills" as in "usually kills" rather than "kills once"?

[KorvinStarmast]

Thing about Gygax -- the attitude he describes is realistic if you're roleplaying paladins as medieval crusaders. The question is, who are you playing D&D with, and what for? Are you trying to recreate a medieval world with medieval attitudes a la the Society for Creative Anachronism, or are you preparing young adolescents with the attitudes they will need to deal with the real world they live in?

Gygax looks like he's going for #1. Clearly Rich Burlew is more interested in #2. Fine reply, thanks. :smallsmile:

[pendell]

To clarify: at your table, anyone commiting any evil acts loses their good alignment or is killing surrendering foes a special case? Or did you mean "kills" as in "usually kills" rather than "kills once"?

As a rule , it takes a pattern of evil acts for me to rule a character as evil, not a single act. Although one act is enough , if it's sufficiently horrific and without mitigating circumstance or necessity. For instance, V would be evil in my book after Familicide. Even a saint who had never committed a single evil or even neutral act would have fallen to true neutral for that, and V's no saint.

Killing a surrendered prisoner is an action that is higher on the evil scale than many, in my book, because 1) It is the willful taking of intelligent life, which cannot be done lightly. "For who takes a life, it is as if they destroyed the world entire, and if one saves a life, it is as if they saved the world entire." 2) It is a betrayal of trust. A combatant surrenders on the understanding that you will take them into custody and not simply murder them outright. Real-world police have an expression: "In my custody, in my care." Murdering those in your care is a betrayal both of your duty and their trust. So it's worse than mere killing, by a lot. At least to me.

So what I look for is:
1. A pattern of evil acts
2. The degree to which an action is exceptionally evil or horrific.
3. The degree of mitigation , or of necessity (killing a prisoner when you're in the middle of a stronghold where stealth is critical is different from torturing one to death in the safety of your own castle. Torturing the BBEG's minion to find out where the Doom Macguffin is when the world has two rounds to continue existing is different from torturing the BBEG's grand niece for pleasure, just because you can).

One act is enough if it scores exceptionally high on 2 but low on 3.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[danielxcutter]

I think this is the One you're talking about (https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11762&start=77)

UPDATE: The question Gygax was answering.





The fact that he's got a smiley at the end suggests he's joking, and I'm not quite sure how to take that. *As written*, he seems to be writing Paladins as if they were nobles of the middle ages, concerned for honor, perfectly willing to kill commoners for slights to their honor and justified in doing so. Although in fairness I don't think anyone of any alignment would simply let it pass if you murdered their horse in front of them.

Killing surrendered prisoners was a big no-no in 1974. It was a no-no in 1945. Hell's bells, it was a no-no going back as far as we've had articles governing warfare. Not just from altruism but from rational economics. Noble prisoners can be ransomed while common prisoners, if they aren't willing to change sides, could be put to forced labor. The attitude Gygax of killing evil so they wouldn't back slide sounds like a parody of the Spanish Inquisition, or something from the bad old days (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caedite_eos._Novit_enim_Dominus_qui_sunt_eius.) of the medieval era.

No one at my table kills surrendered prisoners and, outside of severe mitigating circumstances, keeps an LG alignment. It is an evil act even if it is absolutely necessary (can't guard prisoners, deep in enemy stronghold, can't take them along and don't have any other way to neutralize them). That would have been my attitude in the 1980s as well. The only reason it wouldn't have been in the 70s is because I was too young to run a table at that point.

Thing about Gygax -- the attitude he describes is realistic if you're roleplaying paladins as medieval crusaders. The question is, who are you playing D&D with, and what for? Are you trying to recreate a medieval world with medieval attitudes a la the Society for Creative Anachronism, or are you preparing young adolescents with the attitudes they will need to deal with the real world they live in?

Gygax looks like he's going for #1. Clearly Rich Burlew is more interested in #2.

Although, again, that smiley suggests he may have been ironic or joking. Maybe someone who knows more about the context can shed more light.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

That sounds like it was more the "back then" LG type rather than what we think paragons of morality should be today.

To be fair, I suppose it differs from setting to setting, but I don't think that mindset works in D&D like at all. At least not any more. Maybe it did in Gygax's day, actually.

[Dion]

To be fair, I suppose it differs from setting to setting, but I don't think that mindset works in D&D like at all. At least not any more. Maybe it did in Gygax's day, actually.

Here’s the thing you forget: the alignment rules are absolutely awful. Just Awful.

Everyone argues about them. People have been arguing about them for 45 years.

The ambiguity, contradictions and sheer stupidity of the alignment rules is part of what makes D&D fun for some people.

Because it turns out that some people really like to argue.

It may be true that you don’t like to play with people who argue about alignment, so you don’t play with those people. But theres an immense difference between saying “I choose not to play D&D with people who argue about alignment” and “people don’t argue about alignment anymore”.

[KorvinStarmast]

As a rule , it takes a pattern of evil acts for me to rule a character as evil, not a single act. That's how I've seen it done for most of the time I have played, and is my rule of thumb as a DM. Exception are stuff along the lines of V's familicide: something so monstrous that it somewhat boggles the mind.

The ambiguity, contradictions and sheer stupidity of the alignment rules is part of what makes D&D fun for some people.

Because it turns out that some people really like to argue. Which gets to be very tiresome very quickly. (by the way, nice post). I have a personal rule that's been in place (though its roots are from early in the hobby) since the mid 00's, which is to ask bluntly:

"Are we here to play or argue?"

If the answer is argue, I pick up my stuff and leave until people want to play again.
If I am a player, that barely matters (at the moment).
If I am the DM or GM, it occasionally gets people's attention.

The "argue" habit is what drove my son away from D&D when he was in college (early 10's) in the 3.5 era.
He was there to play. As he told me (paraphrased):
"Dad, why can't they play D&D like we did with you as DM?
With you, it was fun, we played. With them, it's all about arguing."

[Petrocorus]

Agreed. The whole concept of good and evil was pretty new in 1974, and was mostly an academic discipline limited to a few French university professors.


Well, as a French, i'm not sure i'd want to dwell into what those French university professors were saying about Good and Evil given how many of them turned out.

[pendell]

That's how I've seen it done for most of the time I have played, and is my rule of thumb as a DM. Exception are stuff along the lines of V's familicide: something so monstrous that it somewhat boggles the mind.
Which gets to be very tiresome very quickly. (by the way, nice post). I have a personal rule that's been in place (though its roots are from early in the hobby) since the mid 00's, which is to ask bluntly:

"Are we here to play or argue?"

If the answer is argue, I pick up my stuff and leave until people want to play again.
If I am a player, that barely matters (at the moment).
If I am the DM or GM, it occasionally gets people's attention.

The "argue" habit is what drove my son away from D&D when he was in college (early 10's) in the 3.5 era.
He was there to play. As he told me (paraphrased):
"Dad, why can't they play D&D like we did with you as DM?
With you, it was fun, we played. With them, it's all about arguing."

Relevant (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpAvcGcEc0k)

I'm always up for a good argument --- if by "argument" you mean two very intelligent people disputing each other constructively with logic and reason supported by evidence. Shouting matches and abuse, though, forget it.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[RatElemental]

It’s also pretty in line with gygax views especially later on when he became quite bitter. I won’t go into specifics as it’s been discussed many many times on the forums, but his views tended to ignore the need for Good in LG.

Nethack didn't even have good or evil alignments, there was only Lawful, Neutral, and Chaotic.

You could also switch alignments by sacrificing specific unicorn corpses at specifically aligned altars.

[Peelee]

Feel free!

Though if I were honest I’d give it a 50/50 chance of changing to {scrubbed}.

Don't go to Vegas this weekend; the odds were significantly more in favor of me sigging that as well.

[skim172]

It's okay, I'm still not 100% you people aren't some sort of giant TV show.

Ugh, I hate it when these shows decide to have their characters go all meta.

[WanderingMist]

I think this is the One you're talking about (https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11762&start=77)

UPDATE: The question Gygax was answering.





The fact that he's got a smiley at the end suggests he's joking, and I'm not quite sure how to take that. *As written*, he seems to be writing Paladins as if they were nobles of the middle ages, concerned for honor, perfectly willing to kill commoners for slights to their honor and justified in doing so. Although in fairness I don't think anyone of any alignment would simply let it pass if you murdered their horse in front of them.

Killing surrendered prisoners was a big no-no in 1974. It was a no-no in 1945. Hell's bells, it was a no-no going back as far as we've had articles governing warfare. Not just from altruism but from rational economics. Noble prisoners can be ransomed while common prisoners, if they aren't willing to change sides, could be put to forced labor. The attitude Gygax of killing evil so they wouldn't back slide sounds like a parody of the Spanish Inquisition, or something from the bad old days (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caedite_eos._Novit_enim_Dominus_qui_sunt_eius.) of the medieval era.

No one at my table kills surrendered prisoners and, outside of severe mitigating circumstances, keeps an LG alignment. It is an evil act even if it is absolutely necessary (can't guard prisoners, deep in enemy stronghold, can't take them along and don't have any other way to neutralize them). That would have been my attitude in the 1980s as well. The only reason it wouldn't have been in the 70s is because I was too young to run a table at that point.

Thing about Gygax -- the attitude he describes is realistic if you're roleplaying paladins as medieval crusaders. The question is, who are you playing D&D with, and what for? Are you trying to recreate a medieval world with medieval attitudes a la the Society for Creative Anachronism, or are you preparing young adolescents with the attitudes they will need to deal with the real world they live in?

Gygax looks like he's going for #1. Clearly Rich Burlew is more interested in #2.

Although, again, that smiley suggests he may have been ironic or joking. Maybe someone who knows more about the context can shed more light.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

If an act is necessary, then, it cannot be Evil. It may not be Good, but Evil is a willful choice to inflict more harm than is necessary. Killing an enemy that surrendered because you have no other realistic options in the middle of the world-saving mission is not Evil.


As a rule , it takes a pattern of evil acts for me to rule a character as evil, not a single act. Although one act is enough , if it's sufficiently horrific and without mitigating circumstance or necessity. For instance, V would be evil in my book after Familicide. Even a saint who had never committed a single evil or even neutral act would have fallen to true neutral for that, and V's no saint.

Killing a surrendered prisoner is an action that is higher on the evil scale than many, in my book, because 1) It is the willful taking of intelligent life, which cannot be done lightly. "For who takes a life, it is as if they destroyed the world entire, and if one saves a life, it is as if they saved the world entire." 2) It is a betrayal of trust. A combatant surrenders on the understanding that you will take them into custody and not simply murder them outright. Real-world police have an expression: "In my custody, in my care." Murdering those in your care is a betrayal both of your duty and their trust. So it's worse than mere killing, by a lot. At least to me.

So what I look for is:
1. A pattern of evil acts
2. The degree to which an action is exceptionally evil or horrific.
3. The degree of mitigation , or of necessity (killing a prisoner when you're in the middle of a stronghold where stealth is critical is different from torturing one to death in the safety of your own castle. Torturing the BBEG's minion to find out where the Doom Macguffin is when the world has two rounds to continue existing is different from torturing the BBEG's grand niece for pleasure, just because you can).

One act is enough if it scores exceptionally high on 2 but low on 3.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Regarding surrendered enemies: I'd say that depends on two factors: the constraints of the current mission, and whether they've betrayed you after surrendering before.

Regarding Familicide: Would it be because of Familicide's scale of destruction, or because V clearly cast it for revenge and pride and not out of any desire to protect V's family? As high as Familicide's scale of destruction was, it's small potatoes compared to what havoc Wish could wreak if used properly (say, generating a large sphere of antimatter, or changing one little thing in the past and letting the snowball effect do the rest, etc.), and Wish is available to any wizard or sorcerer.

[BruceGee]

It may be true that you don’t like to play with people who argue about alignment, so you don’t play with those people. But theres an immense difference between saying “I choose not to play D&D with people who argue about alignment” and “people don’t argue about alignment anymore”.

The alignment rules struck me as dumb back in the very early days of D&D (the 70s). They were one of the things that caused my group to drop D&D for homebrew and other systems. They seem like a crutch for people who don't know how to role-play -- instead of asking "What would my specific character with my specific background do in this situation?" you could just be lazy and ask "What would a Chaotic Neutral Dwarf Barbarian do?"

And then, as you say, argue about it.

I am very glad that people like Rich are deconstructing the entire concept.

[Petrocorus]

Regarding surrendered enemies: I'd say that depends on two factors: the constraints of the current mission, and whether they've betrayed you after surrendering before.

We could also take into account how redeemable is the enemy.
For instance, how any times Batman has arrested the Joker and how many times the Joker has evaded and started killing again?
Batman has a strong no-kill policy, but how many innocent peoples would still be alive if he had killed the Joker after the second or third time?
How many people in Gotham would wish he had done it.

I remember the subject was brought up in some comics. In Kingdom Come, the guy who kills the Joker is praised by the population (which disgust Superman into retiring).

In the context of D&D, if a BBEG surrender before the end but the PC have many reasons (including divination magic) to believe or even know he will kill again at the first opportunity, is the LG Paladin justified into killing him? Would that be OK for a NG or CG character?


Another thing to take into account, is that the BBEG's actions are probably against the law, and some of them are certainly punishable by death. Is it a Good action to simply apply the death penalty for crimes that warrant it according to the law of the place? Has the Paladin not have to do it if he has legal authority ?

[TRH]

Another thing to take into account, is that the BBEG's actions are probably against the law, and some of them are certainly punishable by death. Is it a Good action to simply apply the death penalty for crimes that warrant it according to the law of the place? Has the Paladin not have to do it if he has legal authority ?

Very few jurisdictions allow private individuals to execute people, for just cause or not. That power is usually vested in the state, and I suspect most paladins aren't agents of their state in any capacity.

[pendell]

Very few jurisdictions allow private individuals to execute people, for just cause or not. That power is usually vested in the state, and I suspect most paladins aren't agents of their state in any capacity.

Actually, in Gygax's world, they are.

I'm quoting from a different poster (elfdart) as linked (https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=11762&start=60), but it seems to be the same attitude GG had.



If I'm going to have a Paladin in the group, I make sure he is given the legal power to dish out justice (like US marshalls used to) and the right to try and string up bandits and the like. This way he is being both Lawful and Good.


See, before there were modern police forces there was such a thing as the Hue And Cry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hue_and_cry). There would be a local magistrate, the Shire Reeve (or sheriff, as we now call him) , responsible for keeping the peace and punishing lawbreakers within the shire. Ordinary citizens could be deputized by the Sheriff to act as his helpers to stop an armed insurrection or arrest a particularly troublesome lawbreaker. They also predated justices of the peace and magistrates, so they were able to act both as judge and as executioner.

Of course, back in those days there were people that didn't need even a trial to be executed. There were people who had been declared outlaws (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlaw). They were... let's see if I remember the phrase ...

"To be cast out from all protection of law
to be numbered among the enemies-general of human kind
to be dealt with as wolves are."

ANY armed person could kill such an outlaw and would not only not be punished, but be praised and rewarded for it.

And this was a status given to human beings. Not monsters.

I think it's fair to assume that, in a gygaxian world like the one we're looking at , all monsters and most humans , be default, would be "outlaw" and thus fair game to anyone willing and able to stick a sword in them and take their stuff. It's a world so primitive that Paladins and others are commissioned by their government to dispense high, middle and low justice in the countryside at the point of a sword.

Of course, that's as different from OOTS world as it is possible to be.

OOTSworld is not a medieval world with magic. It is a modern world with sewer systems, artificial lighting, airships, toilets, universities, and Teevos. It is a world that has robust legal institutions and traditions. It is a world which has both instantaneous communication (via sending) and teleportation magic. Consequently there is no reason in OOTS for there to be appointed paladins roaming the earth dispensing justice at sword point. The fact the Sapphire Guard does this implies it is an anachronism. Nor is there a reason to "outlaw" people in the old traditional sense -- transgressors can be arrested, tried in court, and punished by real lawful appointed authorities, not the only sheriff in a hundred square miles. Nor is there room for the racism which is understandable when the world consists of tiny villages, most of whose inhabitants all look like each other and never meet anyone not like them, but totally unworkable in a multicultural world where people of all colors, religions, and tooth types live side by side in a civilization.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Petrocorus]

Very few jurisdictions allow private individuals to execute people, for just cause or not. That power is usually vested in the state, and I suspect most paladins aren't agents of their state in any capacity.

In today's world, that is certainly the case.
But in a med-fan world, that can maybe vary.
The Paladin, or a PC, could be a noble with some legitimate authority, he could be vested by a chuch (some having justice duties), or be an agent of some organisation.
In the North in FR, for instance, there are many places without much legal authority, so a PC who is an agent of the Lord's Alliance could consider he's the most legitimate authority in the places.

[Cavenskull]

As a few people have already mentioned, getting the bag above the totally-not-a-Beholder would solve the Bloodfeast problem. The missing step is to turn the bag inside out first, then throw it as high as possible. This ensures all items--including Bloodfeast!--fall out of the bag on their own once it clears the AMF field.

[JessmanCA]

In the Snarl, instead of a periodic table of elements they have an aperiodic mishmash of compounds

[Dire_Flumph]

As a few people have already mentioned, getting the bag above the totally-not-a-Beholder would solve the Bloodfeast problem.

In that producing a falling, confused and pissed-off all at the same time Allosaurus would be a completely new Bloodfeast problem. :smallbiggrin:

[nespunkt]

Dang, does this mean that Belkar can't pull out his lead sheet of justice either? I was hoping that would factor into the battle.

[danielxcutter]

Dang, does this mean that Belkar can't pull out his lead sheet of justice either? I was hoping that would factor into the battle.

He doesn't even HAVE that sheet any more. He left it back at Azure City.

Also it wouldn't help at all anyways.

[dancrilis]

Dang, does this mean that Belkar can't pull out his lead sheet of justice either? I was hoping that would factor into the battle.

He can't bring out the lead sheet for a different reason. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0779.html)

[Patterned_Pike]

That would only tell her what happened after the Gate blew, though. You can't scry the recent past as far as I know.

Not unless you have a Teevo! (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html)

[Patterned_Pike]

Can someone explain Elan's line about having finished their unrequited romance subplot in response to Minrah asking about a torch? I feel like I'm missing a reference there.