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View Full Version : Optimization Half elf Vengeance Dexadin (level 1 up)



Klorox
2021-07-07, 01:49 PM
I’ve never played a DEX based paladin before. I’m set on half elf and the vengeance archetype, but I’m not sure where to go from there. I’m zeroing in on the soldier background but I could change that.

I’m fine not multiclassing, and I think half elf is probably my best bet (elven accuracy down the road pairs really well with some vengeance paladin abilities).

Any help y’all can give me is appreciated.

Kuulvheysoon
2021-07-07, 01:53 PM
One of my players had a Ancients Dexadin that specialized in the whip and shield. It was a really fun build, what with the reach. Most of the damage came from Dexterity and the fighting style (when he wasn't smiting).

MrCharlie
2021-07-07, 02:32 PM
I’ve never played a DEX based paladin before. I’m set on half elf and the vengeance archetype, but I’m not sure where to go from there. I’m zeroing in on the soldier background but I could change that.

I’m fine not multiclassing, and I think half elf is probably my best bet (elven accuracy down the road pairs really well with some vengeance paladin abilities).

Any help y’all can give me is appreciated.
Soldier is exceptional for you if you aren't making a custom one, as its locked in skills use attributes you're good at using. It's also a strong, simple theme that can be explored and ties well with vengeance tenants.

Without more I can't suggest much, as I don't know what feats, spells, etc. are available nor how you are generating stats. Paladins generally don't multiclass until high levels anyway (except for hexblade) so that's not a limiting factor, really. What I can say is that Vengance dexadins typically go sword/board, and rely on smites for damage. Most feats don't help that much with this playstyle other than elven accuracy. Other than that, some feats and fighting styles from Tashas are worth considering.

For instance, if your DEX ends up odd after elven accuracy it might make sense to take Slasher and Piercer-elven accuracy builds are great at crit fishing, and both their riders are quite good. Telekinetic would also be a great option to consider if you end up with an odd CHA score, as Paladins hurt a bit for meaningful bonus actions after they hit their vow, given that most smite spells aren't worth the slot. Telekinetic is great at occasionally giving you a way to close distance faster, move allies out of effects even if they are unable to move, move enemies into harmful effects, etc., and it's an option most DEX builds don't have.

Otherwise we need more details.

Klorox
2021-07-07, 03:16 PM
Soldier is exceptional for you if you aren't making a custom one, as its locked in skills use attributes you're good at using. It's also a strong, simple theme that can be explored and ties well with vengeance tenants.

Without more I can't suggest much, as I don't know what feats, spells, etc. are available nor how you are generating stats. Paladins generally don't multiclass until high levels anyway (except for hexblade) so that's not a limiting factor, really. What I can say is that Vengance dexadins typically go sword/board, and rely on smites for damage. Most feats don't help that much with this playstyle other than elven accuracy. Other than that, some feats and fighting styles from Tashas are worth considering.

For instance, if your DEX ends up odd after elven accuracy it might make sense to take Slasher and Piercer-elven accuracy builds are great at crit fishing, and both their riders are quite good. Telekinetic would also be a great option to consider if you end up with an odd CHA score, as Paladins hurt a bit for meaningful bonus actions after they hit their vow, given that most smite spells aren't worth the slot. Telekinetic is great at occasionally giving you a way to close distance faster, move allies out of effects even if they are unable to move, move enemies into harmful effects, etc., and it's an option most DEX builds don't have.

Otherwise we need more details.

Details would be point buy for stats and I’m starting at level 1. I can use variant half elf if I want, but the fact that I can get stealth with the free proficiency is a help for me.

Gignere
2021-07-07, 03:21 PM
Details would be point buy for stats and I’m starting at level 1. I can use variant half elf if I want, but the fact that I can get stealth with the free proficiency is a help for me.

Should get acrobatics proficiency with the other free proficiency. If your DM allows Eberron you should definitely use the double scimitar and grab the feat Revenant Blade at level 4 followed by elven accuracy at level 8.

I’m playing a watchers Dexadin with a double scimitar.

da newt
2021-07-07, 03:21 PM
If your table allows it, the Double Scimitar and Revenant Blade feat is one of the best for a DEX Pali.

Name Cost Damage Weight Properties
Double-Bladed Scimitar 100 gp 2d4 slashing 6 lbs Special, Two-Handed

The double-bladed scimitar is the signature weapon of Valenar elves. A haft of fine wood supports a long, curving blade on either end. Forged with techniques honed over centuries, these blades are strong, sharp, and remarkably light. Each scimitar is a masterpiece, and as a result the double-bladed scimitar is an expensive weapon (100 gp) — few though ever have the opportunity to purchase one. A Valenar blade in the hands of a non-elf is generally assumed to have been stolen or looted from a fallen foe, and a Valenar elf might feel entitled to demand its return or challenge the bearer to prove they’re worthy to wield it.

Special. If you attack with a double-bladed scimitar as part of the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action immediately after to make a melee attack with it. This attack deals 1d4 slashing damage on a hit, instead of 2d4.

Revenent Blade Feat:
You are descended from a master of the double-blade, and some of that mastery has passed on to you. You gain the following benefits:

- Increase your Dexterity or Strength score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
- While wielding a double-bladed weapon with two hands, you gain +1 AC.
- A double-bladed scimitar has the finesse property when you wield it.
- Your BA attack does 2d4 damage.

I'm also a big fan of RES CON for a melee Pali.

MrCharlie
2021-07-07, 03:46 PM
If your table allows it, the Double Scimitar and Revenant Blade feat is one of the best for a DEX Pali.

Name Cost Damage Weight Properties
Double-Bladed Scimitar 100 gp 2d4 slashing 6 lbs Special, Two-Handed

The double-bladed scimitar is the signature weapon of Valenar elves. A haft of fine wood supports a long, curving blade on either end. Forged with techniques honed over centuries, these blades are strong, sharp, and remarkably light. Each scimitar is a masterpiece, and as a result the double-bladed scimitar is an expensive weapon (100 gp) — few though ever have the opportunity to purchase one. A Valenar blade in the hands of a non-elf is generally assumed to have been stolen or looted from a fallen foe, and a Valenar elf might feel entitled to demand its return or challenge the bearer to prove they’re worthy to wield it.

Special. If you attack with a double-bladed scimitar as part of the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action immediately after to make a melee attack with it. This attack deals 1d4 slashing damage on a hit, instead of 2d4.

Revenent Blade Feat:
You are descended from a master of the double-blade, and some of that mastery has passed on to you. You gain the following benefits:

- Increase your Dexterity or Strength score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
- While wielding a double-bladed weapon with two hands, you gain +1 AC.
- A double-bladed scimitar has the finesse property when you wield it.
- Your BA attack does 2d4 damage.

I'm also a big fan of RES CON for a melee Pali.
I'll second that Revenent blade is exceptional for a melee Dexadin, mostly because it's a bonus action attack, with DEX, without two-weapon fighting (which requires feat investment) with numerous benefits. If you go this route, strongly consider a Tasha's fighting style such as blind fighting, blessed warrior, or the interception style (which works with a two-handed weapon), assuming that you can't use great weapon style with smite dice.

I will note that Revenent blade requires you to be an elf, which arguably precludes half-elf (there is no generic text a-la 3.5 that says that half-elves are considered elves for feats or other features). In such a circumstance you should go for a full-blooded elf from an optimization perspective. Also, double-scimitars may not be a thing that actually exist in your setting. Assuming your DM is willing to be reasonable it's great though.

Also-can you use Tasha's variant rule allowing for moving stat increases around? If yes, then you can move the +2 from half-elf to DEX. Given that you want either one or multiple +1 DEX feats (there are three very useful +1 DEX feats for you!) this will change your point-buy a bit.

To writ: your most optimized point buys arrays (after racials) are either 8-17-16-8-8-16 if you can move the +2 from half-elf to DEX, or 8-16-16-8-10-16 if you have to take +2 CHA. If you have to start with a 16 DEX, you're going to be stuck below normal attributes for a while. If you can start with a 17 DEX, you're probably going to want to take Elven accuracy, Revenent Blade, then Slasher as feats, assuming you can tap into any source. You'll be down 1 DEX from levels 8-12, but it's almost certainly worth it.

This assumes your DM will let you use any source for feats (I'm recommending feats from three very different books), which we haven't established yet.

Keravath
2021-07-07, 05:00 PM
One thing to consider is that, unless you have a reliable way to get advantage on your attacks, Elven Accuracy is largely a waste of a feat.

If your DM uses flanking (bad idea in my opinion) then Elven Accuracy is essentially auto hit making it a decent choice if the party has other melee characters.
If you have some sort of knock prone/melee attack build then you can get advantage that way then Elven Accuracy is ok but it costs you an attack every turn (unless another melee character is doing the knock prone part AND the initiative order works out that they don't stand up before your attacks).
If you are a multiclassed warlock or shadow sorcerer who can cast darkness and see through it then that works pretty well but it does take the first round of combat (except maybe a sorcerer casting darkness using quicken metamagic).
If someone will regularly cast faerie fire
If you have a familiar or a party member to perform the help action but that only works for one attack.

... without one or more of those, you just won't have advantage often enough to make the extra die from Elven Accuracy useful enough to use a feat on (keeping in mind that regular Advantage is already pretty good).

P.S. Revenant Blade is from Eberron and so may not be available in all campaigns - need to check with your DM about allowed content.

LordShade
2021-07-07, 05:54 PM
I'm running an Eberron game right now. One of my players is a Mark of Shadow Vengeance Dexadin (startin 17 Dex). The party is level 3 right now, so he's using a rapier+shield, but he's going to switch to the DBS at level 4 when he picks up Revenant Blade (18 Dex). I don't remember what fighting style he took--may have been GWF, but I agree that Defense and Blindfighting are also good. I think Blessed Warrior sucks for most concepts and I don't have an opinion on Interception.

He's a new player, so he hasn't really mapped out his build after that, but I'm going to suggest to him that that he look at EA and Slasher as his level 8 and 12 feats. I think EA is a no-brainer for this build, and I personally think Slasher is good too, but I think this forum has very mixed views on the three weapon feats from Tasha's.

Overall this build has a great deal of synergy. Mark of Shadow syncs perfectly with the existing Paladin spell list, the Vengeance spell list is inherently good, and the combo of on-demand advantage, EA, Slasher, and crit-fishing for smites is also excellent. This build can also be done with dual-wield but overall the DBS is just better due to the bonus action attack not requiring a fighting style to add the +5 damage.

Deen
2021-07-07, 06:38 PM
Very good and very OP build when played right:

Mark of Shadow Vengeance Paladin with the following ASI: Revenant Blade, Elven Accuracy.
Fighting Style: Blind Fighting Style

It's very effective and very slot-effective build. As Vengeance you get all the good stuff: Haste, Misty Step, Hunter's Mark, Dimensional Doors

But as Mark of Shadow you also get: Pass Without Trace, Darkness, Greater Invisibility, Invisibility 1/day and +1d4 to Stealth/Performance rolls.

And as Vengeance Paladin you get Vow of Enmity as you Channel Divinity.

What does it mean? With Proficiency in Stealth, Invisibility/Pass Without Trace and +1d4 you are as good in stealth as Rogue. Especially if your DM gives you advantage on stealth rolls when Invisible.

What's more with Blind Fighting Style you have all the ways to generate advantage for yourself: with Darkness + Blindsight combo, with Vow of Enmity on bosses that can see through such things (or so you can concentrate on something better like Haste or Spirit Shroud) and with Greater Invisibility (which will also work on your Steed). You have also Hunter's Mark which is 1 hour (potentially multiple encounters) buff to your attacks before you get Elemental Weapon/Spirit Shroud.

Which means that you can crit fish with Elven Accuracy (for big smites to get double Value of Smite), you have with 3 attacks ,18 DEX and EA a 90% hit chance vs AC 20 (you basically never miss) and you are so efficiecnt at Smiting that you can delete bosses really fast. You can also easy combo with your party casters with Fog Cloud or Darkness. Enemies don't get OAs aginst you, you get against them, melee enemies had disadvantage to hit you, you have advantage, casters can't target you with any "target you can see" type of spell (which is tons of nasty spells like Hold Person, Suggestion, Command, Disintegration etc.).

You are also super mobile due to being Vengeance Paladin + having steeds that can use Dash (in combo with your Heavy Obscure tricks) or Disengage, very sneaky and you even get Disguise Self to be able to mislead enemies.

Eleven Accuracy shines on this build becasue you pretty much always have a way to get advantage.

Very good build to play. After getting 18 DEX you should focus on getting 20 CHA, but you can also set down on 18 CHA and squish RES (CON) somewhere though if you will get 20 CHA it's like you have RES (CON) anyway compare to other classes.

Klorox
2021-07-08, 04:51 AM
Sorry all, no double bladed scimitars.


One thing to consider is that, unless you have a reliable way to get advantage on your attacks, Elven Accuracy is largely a waste of a feat.

Level 3 vengeance paladin isn’t enough?

LudicSavant
2021-07-08, 06:19 AM
In terms of weaponry, there are three main styles to go with for a Dexadin... rapier-and-board, dual-wielding, or Revenant Blade.

Revenant Blade is kinda like "what if Polearm Master was a primary-stat-boosting half-feat, and based on a better attribute than Strength?" If that sounds wicked good, it's because it is. It doesn't come with the reaction attack, but makes up for it with the other aspects.

TWFing is actually decent for Paladins, unlike... most people. Particularly once Improved Divine Smite comes online. However, a whole lot of people do it completely wrong, falling into trap options which make it terrible instead of decent.

The point of TWFing is its low overhead -- you can get a bonus action attack to apply your Hunter's Mark and Improved Divine Smite and such to without spending a precious ASI. If you're taking the Dual-Wielder feat, you are taking that ASI, throwing it in the garbage, and lighting it on @#$%ing fire. Why? Because all you got from that ASI is a worse version of RB or PAM.

Instead, TWFing is an option for people who would rather do things like, say, max Charisma ASAP, or get Inspiring Leader, or the like. People keep assuming that they need to take Dual-Wielder and the TWF Fighting Style in order to TWF. Do not be those people. Use that ASI you didn't have to spend to get your bonus action attack on something that is actually worth an ASI. Use that Fighting Style to get Blind-Fighting or something. This is the way.

Rapier and board offers you the best AC, and better damage than Str-longsword-and-board (because you'll effectively get more turns from a higher initiative, and you'll effectively get slightly more Advantage from starting fights Hidden more often). It doesn't offer a bonus action, but that's not so bad if you find yourself frequently using your bonus action on other things (like Vow of Enmity, Hunter's Mark, Misty Step, etc). It will mean less attacks for Elven Accuracy critfishing, though.

___

Defensively, Dex is at least as good as Str. People often tunnel vision on "Plate has 1 AC more than Half-Plate or 20 Dex + Light armor" while ignoring all of the other variables, but those variables matter, and are often in Dex's favor.

This is because...
- Dex saves tend to be much more valuable than Str saves. Doubly so if you have tools like Misty Step available (since it can escape from a lot of Str-Save-based effects).
- Initiative is worth quite a lot, both offensively and defensively. You can more or less think of init bonuses as a % chance to gain extra actions each fight (more extra actions than Action Surge, in fact).
- You can actually use stealth.
- And last but certainly not least, your AC is often just as good in practice (and even in the situations when it isn't, the other benefits are often worth as much as +1 AC).

Why is your AC often just as good anyways? Well, because...
- In the early levels, you literally have the same AC. Medium 50gp Scale Mail provides the same AC as Heavy 75gp Chain Mail!
- If magic items are purchaseable, Half-Plate + an Uncommon magic item is better (and significantly cheaper, regardless of which magic item guideline you're using) than Full Plate. Up until the point where you're running up against the "you have no more attunement slots" limit.
- If magic items are randomly findable, +X plate is full categories rarer on loot tables than +X of different armor types.
- If magic items are not available, Mage Armor + max Dex is the same AC as nonmagical plate. You can think of Mage Armor like an 8-hour Concentration-free +1 to AC. Or (comparing to saving a spell slot and wearing plate), you can think of it this way: if you could cast a level 1 spell slot to give someone +6 to initiative (difference between 20 Dex and dumping it), and switch your bonus to Str saves to a bonus to Dex saves, and be good at stealth, and that spell lasts 8 hours without Concentration, would you cast that level 1 spell? The answer should be yes. So it's worth the spell slot for (insert whoever in your party can cast Mage Armor).

In terms of progression, you can basically start with Medium armor, then upgrade to Light or Mage Armor once your Dex is high enough.

Gignere
2021-07-08, 06:34 AM
TWFing is actually decent for Paladins, unlike... most people. Particularly once Improved Divine Smite comes online. However, a whole lot of people do it completely wrong, falling into trap options which make it terrible instead of decent.

The point of TWFing is its low overhead -- you can get a bonus action attack to apply your Hunter's Mark and Improved Divine Smite and such to without spending a precious ASI. If you're taking the Dual-Wielder feat, you are taking that ASI, throwing it in the garbage, and lighting it on @#$%ing fire. Why? Because all you got from that ASI is a worse version of RB or PAM.

Instead, TWFing is an option for people who would rather do things like, say, max Charisma ASAP, or get Inspiring Leader, or the like. People keep assuming that they need to take Dual-Wielder and the TWF Fighting Style in order to TWF. Do not be those people. Use that ASI you didn't have to spend to get your bonus action attack on something that is actually worth an ASI. Use that Fighting Style to get Blind-Fighting or something. This is the way.

I could not have put it better myself. 100% agree TWF good, feat is garbage.

Everytime I argue with people that the dual wielder feat is garbage it’s always conflated that I am arguing two weapon fighting is garbage. However, that’s not true default TWF is good, the feat is garbage.

Keravath
2021-07-08, 07:53 AM
Sorry all, no double bladed scimitars.

Level 3 vengeance paladin isn’t enough?

It is ok - but it only applies to one creature in one combat every short or long rest. It is ok when used for a tougher monster but you won't be getting advantage very regularly.

Compared to a warlock with darkness+devils sight or shadow of moil with advantage on every creature in every combat - there is a significant difference. On the other hand, it does allow for the possibility of burst damage against tough opponents assuming the paladin has reserved the spell slots during the adventuring day to use for smites.

Gignere
2021-07-08, 07:56 AM
It is ok - but it only applies to one creature in one combat every short or long rest. It is ok when used for a tougher monster but you won't be getting advantage very regularly.

Compared to a warlock with darkness+devils sight or shadow of moil with advantage on every creature in every combat - there is a significant difference.

Of course one is blowing spell resources and another isn’t. If you built for elven accuracy you need to communicate with your team on why them finding ways to getting you advantage is good. Do people forget this is a team game.

Deen
2021-07-08, 09:16 AM
Sorry all, no double bladed scimitars.



Level 3 vengeance paladin isn’t enough?

Nope. Elven Accuracy is one of the strongest feats in the 5e and being able to only utilize it vs single enemy 1/short rest is little bit of a waste. It's still great vs bosses, especially combined with Steed and Haste - Bonus Action: VoE, Action: Haste (while sitting on Steed) and you can dash probably at least 100-120 feet and use your Steed Action (when using Mounted Combat rules and Steed as controlled mount who shares initiative with you) for Disengage, you can do hit'n'run crit-fishing burst attacks with 4 attacks and total of 12x d20 rolls per turn while being outside of most boss attacks. It's especially good if DM allows you (as per spell description/rules) to summon better animal as steed than mentioned in Find Steed (most do, even official 5e prepared Half-Orc paladin has Brown Beer as Steed). Combined that with Misty Step/Dimensional Door (both work on steed and you) and you are like a slashing holy wind!

However, besides that you have no other way to use Elven Accuracy in normal encounter. Not every encounter has mini-boss/boss so you can focus on him while your party clears minions so it's important to have other ways of getting advantage. So here are couple of ways to make sure your EA is up as much as possible:

1. See if your party members are doing characters with access to spells like: Darkness or Fog Cloud. Then take Blind Fighting Style, explain to them how this combo works and if they are willing to work with you on that you can be buffed in most combat encoutners. Evokers are great for this as most their spells is AOE damage and they don't have to worry about friendly fire.

2. Think about the following dips: Clockwork Sorcerer for Fog Cloud spell or Marid Genie Warlock for 1/short rest Fog Cloud spell. 1 level dip will give you a lot of extra spells and a way to have your own combo without relying on party members, who may have better ways to spend concentration on.

3. For race choices think of Mark of Shadow or Mark of Storm. First one gives Darkness and Greater Invisibility to spell list (Darkness combo with Blind Fighting Style), while Mark of Storm gives Fog Cloud (combo with Blind Fighting Style) + other useful summon spells.

4. For Magic Items, try to get your hand on uncommon (!) magic item: Eversmoking Bottle - which is basically a free of concentration and resources Fog Cloud and it's one of the strongest magic items in 5e you can get as Blind Fighting Style character. It's only uncommon and most DMs don't realize it's power so it can be bought cheap.

Generally you want to make sure that your EA is up as much as possible and you have as many tools as necessary to always get advantage in some way. VoE covers you on bosses and bosses with Blindsight/Tremorsense/True Seeing but you should have more tricks to trigger EA in standard encounters.

LudicSavant
2021-07-08, 09:35 AM
Level 3 vengeance paladin isn’t enough?

Ideally you want to be generating Advantage more often than 1/short rest. Though this advantage doesn't necessarily all have to come from you, party members often generate Advantage for other party members.

MrCharlie
2021-07-08, 11:22 AM
Sorry all, no double bladed scimitars.

Level 3 vengeance paladin isn’t enough?
In that case, the question is a matter of efficiency of point-buy. Piercer (or slasher)+Elven accuracy gets default half-elf up to 18, Elven accuracy alone gets a Tasah's half-elf up to 18. Piercer/Slasher are good, but probably not worth an inefficent Dex score, so we need to know if you can move the +2 from charisma to DEX.

(Insert other +1 DEX feat of your choice if you want to dispute piercer/slasher).

My personal take on Dexadin is that it's a great sword/board build with rapier and shield. TWFing works, you just have to accept that the bonus action does mediocre damage until level 11 or you pump smites into it, but in general it's a super attrition heavy playstyle. I think Paladins nova effectively enough already, so just building for better damage and AC in other situations favors them more. YMMV.

Plus, with Tasha's you can retrain into TWF when you get an ASI, so one idea is to sword/board until 12, then use martial verstaility to switch to another fighting style. The only real investment into sword/board is the dueling fighting style. There is also something to be said for simply taking interception and freely switching between TWF and sword/board from the get go.

As for advantage-I've played the build you're going for, and it really isn't enough. You'll wreck bosses, but you generally want support from the team to effectively use elven accuracy, or some ability you have more complete control of to use it effectively. The problem is that it's single target and uses your bonus action. I personally dislike the devils sight combo for practical reasons, and you don't need something that abusable, but the better elven accuracy builds either use spells, allies, or better advantage generation to make it work, something which either works on all targets for at least one turn, lets you chain advantage, or is usable more than once per rest.

Deen
2021-07-08, 01:53 PM
I personally dislike the devils sight combo for practical reasons, and you don't need something that abusable

I think Blind Fighting Style is more abusable and better than Devil's Sight. You not only get same combo potential with Darkness, but also combo with Fog Cloud (which True Seeing/Devil's Sight can't see through but you can) and you also get for free smaller True Seeing becasue you can see through darkness, magical darkness and invisible enemies. Blind Fighting Style is imo the biggest melee buff all martials ever got. It's Team-Based game so now party can easy give their Sentinel GWM PAM Battlemasters, SS XBE Battlemasters (CQC Range combat :D), Their GWM/EA Paladins and so on advantage via tons of different ways. It also gives them a lot of edge vs enemy casters since obscurement protects them vs tons of spells while they can nova them with advantage to oblivion. All good stuff.

This is my favourite thing that Tasha brought for martials.

RogueJK
2021-07-09, 09:15 AM
Plus, with Tasha's you can retrain into TWF when you get an ASI, so one idea is to sword/board until 12, then use martial verstaility to switch to another fighting style.

Paladins don't have access to the TWF fighting style, even post-Tasha's.

LudicSavant
2021-07-09, 09:23 AM
Paladins don't have access to the TWF fighting style, even post-Tasha's.

Yeah. And not only that, but the best TWF builds are generally the ones that don't take the TWF Style or Dual-Wielder.

5eNeedsDarksun
2021-07-09, 09:25 AM
If you are interested in multi-classing and your group plays with a favorable ruling for Shield Master Feat a level (or more) of rogue can be good and fun to play. It allows you to sneak around and exact your Vengeance unseen until it's too late...
You do need to come up with a 13 Str to cover the multi-classing restriction of a paladin, but that's lots for your Shield shove given expertise.

LudicSavant
2021-07-09, 09:29 AM
I think Blind Fighting Style is more abusable and better than Devil's Sight. You not only get same combo potential with Darkness, but also combo with Fog Cloud (which True Seeing/Devil's Sight can't see through but you can) and you also get for free smaller True Seeing becasue you can see through darkness, magical darkness and invisible enemies. Blind Fighting Style is imo the biggest melee buff all martials ever got. It's Team-Based game so now party can easy give their Sentinel GWM PAM Battlemasters, SS XBE Battlemasters (CQC Range combat :D), Their GWM/EA Paladins and so on advantage via tons of different ways. It also gives them a lot of edge vs enemy casters since obscurement protects them vs tons of spells while they can nova them with advantage to oblivion. All good stuff.

This is my favourite thing that Tasha brought for martials.

Aye, Blind-Fighting is super high potential. A good, cooperative party can do some very nasty things with it.

RogueJK
2021-07-09, 09:29 AM
If you are interested in multi-classing and your group plays with a favorable ruling for Shield Master Feat a level (or more) of rogue can be good and fun to play. It allows you to sneak around and exact your Vengeance unseen until it's too late...
You do need to come up with a 13 Str to cover the multi-classing restriction of a paladin, but that's lots for your Shield shove given expertise.

Shield Master aside, Arya Stark could be a good example of a DEX-based Vengeance Paladin/Rogue multiclass, with the Blind Fighting fighting style and the Shadow Touched feat for Invisibility + Disguise Self.

5eNeedsDarksun
2021-07-09, 10:47 AM
Shield Master aside, Arya Stark could be a good example of a DEX-based Vengeance Paladin/Rogue multiclass, with the Blind Fighting fighting style and the Shadow Touched feat for Invisibility + Disguise Self.

Agreed. The Shield Master suggestion was how I played mine, but there are definitely options.

Corran
2021-07-09, 11:28 AM
Something that would be good to ask yourself is how much tanking your character will be expecetd to use.

Let's suppose you dont have to do too much tanking and that multiclassing is out:
Being dex based means that you can be stealthy (darkvision covered by race) and that you can have a decent ranged attack. So I would try to aim for both. I'd lower my max AC potential by 1, by not wearing an armor that bestows disadvantage on stealth checks. And I'd lower it by another 2 points, by not equiping a shield so that I could change to a bow faster (without having to spend an action dropping the shield). The side benefit of the latter is that you'll increase your damage eventually (despite some bonus action clog) because extra attacks play well with IDS. The other good thing about twf is that it does not really need any feats to be decent for paladins, and that's good because you are going to have a lot of pressure for your ASI's between raising cha,dex and grabbing a few feats (resilient con -particularly when haste comes online, and maybe a few more useuful feats like inspiring leader, lucky, etc).

The approach above wont work well if you've got to do a lot of tanking. Multiclassing a (few?) level(s) in caster may or may not be enough to fix this, by getting you access to the shield spell, to a ranged attack that gives you the option to go with S&B instead of twf for a couple more points of AC (GFB will cover for the loss of dpr) if you want to squeeze every point of AC you can while still remaining stealthy. Still, there are drawbacks to this approach, such as satisfying the multiclass requirements. In general I would say that being a dex pally is a good opportunity to avoid multiclassing without missing too much. So long as you dont have to do much tanking. Dex s&b might or might not be enough, though you are not making the most of your ranged capability in this case.

Deen
2021-07-11, 02:44 PM
It's also worth to note (for future levels planning) that after level 13 Paladin there is no need really to continue as Paladin in my opinion becasue you already got IDS, fear immunity and Pegasus (Greater Steed). Instead I would finish off with 7 levels of Sorcerer (Clockwork or Divine Soul) to get little bit more smite slots, Shield, Absorb Elements, Counterspell, Hypnotic Pattern, Phantasmal Force, Suggestion etc. added. Most Oaths don't have that good level 15 and 20 features and even if they do - I think more slots and more spells make it overall little better than Oath features, but that's just my opinion. Some low level spells like Web, Phantasmal Force, Suggestion, Shield or Counterspell are relevent even at highest level of gameplay so those are just free bonuses on top of solid Dexadin chasis.