Is it worth having my steel defender grapple?

[whateew]

I'm theory crafting a battle smith mark of warding dwarf, and I was curious what you all think about having the steel defender companion grapple?

With a relatively low 2 + PB athletics score, it's not going to be great by itself, but we can pull some shenanigans to improve that. It requires a bit of set up, but it might be worth it.


Assuming you can "work it into" your defender (you can determine the defenders anatomy so I imagine it's fine), you can boost the check by 2 to 4 + PB. These are uncommon and thus not too rare, but even in a low magic item campaign you are guaranteed these by level 10 as an infusion.



you can impose disadvantage on your victims skill of choice - for the SAD artificer, taking fey touched for hex and misty step is very easy and worthwhile anyway, with an odd int score being easy to get.



You can spend an action casting this on your defender, or at 11th level, you can give your defender a spell storing item with the enlarge spell cast, giving it advantage on all its str checks (as well as letting you mount the creature). While RAW, you would need to use a bonus action to command the thing to enlarge, with 2x int uses you could give it a general command "when we are about to be in combat / just start combat, cast enlarge on yourself - it can never be surprised, so I'd think this was fine.


I was originally looking at this for mounted combatant feat, but actually I realised having it grapple might be just as good. With two bonus actions, you could grapple and shove a creature, and with the help of an ally this could happen in one round. Between a hex set up prior, or an enlarge spell (or possibly both at 11th level!), I think this would definitely work

This is useful for obvious reasons, but a nice thing is that you can benefit from your own shovegrapple advantage for great weapon master + hex for nasty damage.

Thoughts on this - is this useful, or is it not worth the effort? Are some bits useful, but others not worth it or redundant? Id love to hear your thoughts.

[Keravath]

It would be a DM call as to whether a steel defender is capable of grappling since it lacks hands

"The target of your grapple must be no more than one size larger than you and must be within your reach."
"Using at least one free hand, you try to seize the target by making a grapple check instead of an attack roll:"

You decide whether it has two legs or four but there is no indication that you decide whether it has hands or not.

"You determine the creature's appearance and whether it has two legs or four; your choice has no effect on its game statistics."

"In combat, the defender shares your initiative count, but it takes its turn immediately after yours."

Finally, the steel defender goes after you in the initiative order.

Going after you means that even if it succeeds in a grapple, the target of the grapple is guaranteed an opportunity to escape before your next turn comes around. In addition, being grappled sets the target speed to zero so it is a good way to prevent a creature escaping but it doesn't do much else.

P.S. With the right combination of party members and the right initiative order it might work out but I'm not sure how much it is worth investing in ... but check with the DM about the steel defender being able to grapple.

[Evaar]

Probably worth it if you don't overinvest.

Defender's damage is pretty poor, so you aren't giving up much. I don't know if using an infusion is worthwhile for this. Frankly, at level 17 my defender is pretty useless (I do not believe it is capable of using the Spell Storing Item I created, so I don't utilize it for that). Using a bonus action to shove or grapple when I have nothing else for it to do is probably at least as useful as it dealing 6 force damage to a target.

Mostly I'm dragging it around so it can apply the odd disadvantage to an attack roll now and then, and so it can use its Repair feature on my team's Simulacrums (they're constructs, it can explicitly heal constructs).

[whateew]

It would be a DM call as to whether a steel defender is capable of grappling since it lacks hands


Ah, thats true! I had assumed it would have hands (or maybe a mouth, think like an attack dog?) to grapple with, but I shouldn't assume.
Still, it does also have athletics proficiency, making me think it would be capable of handling this kind of cqc.




Going after you means that even if it succeeds in a grapple, the target of the grapple is guaranteed an opportunity to escape before your next turn comes around.


Another very good catch! This is a pretty big deal, and limits how effective this is for solo use unless you knock it prone yourself, and then your creature for a bonus action grapple.
This isn't impossible - str can be used as a tortle, or with a heavy armour dip from say, fighter, but that's more effort than it's worth I guess.
Maybe this would be best as a support for a front line tank then - they can spare the str for this - perhaps the barbarian or the open hand monk shoves them prone, and you time your turn after to pin the enemy. This may be fun to help monks, who knock prone but don't really want to grapple as much as a disposable steel beast.





Probably worth it if you don't overinvest.
Defender's damage is pretty poor, so you aren't giving up much.


Mmmm, it's tricky to think of how much is too much investment. If the ogre gauntlets are free, then that is superb, but I see what you mean that an infusion is very valuable.

The spell storing item is another issue, and thanks to your feedback I've reconsidered it a bit - I was originally thinking enlarge, because advantage on grappling up to huge targets, but maybe enhance ability would be better - longer time and way more options out of battle. I thought it might be nice for a mounted combatant fighter friend, but I fear I sacrifice too much to have the spell storing item benefit only the defender, compared to, say, an Aid spell, so enhance is probably a good compromise.

As for hex'ing the enemy, it costs conc but I reckon it'd be worth it for a battlesmith anyway, and a half feat means this is practically free. I'm not sure what other spell or feat would compete with it.

Overall, how many of these would you say are needed for the defender to do well grappling? With a base of 2+PB, gauntlets add 2, enhance ability (str) adds advantage while hex adds disadvantage. Until level 11, it's either hex or enhance, but after one can have all 3. How many is enough, and what do you think is too much?

I was thinking maybe give up an infusion until 11, then replace it with enhance ability item? I doubt hex by itself would be enough to reliably grapple, but then again few monsters have athletics or acrobatics proficiencies... Then, at 11th, you trade the gauntlets for the spell storing item, providing the team benefits And your dude benefits in combat.

[MrStabby]

Actually, this seems pretty fun.

The loss of an attack from the construct is pretty minor as you go up levels but a grapple or a shove can remain useful for a long time. Virtually no additional investment needed.

2+PB doesn't seem huge, but used judiciously - and maybe with a little support, it could be a nice touch.

[MaxWilson]

Probably worth it if you don't overinvest.

Defender's damage is pretty poor, so you aren't giving up much. I don't know if using an infusion is worthwhile for this. Frankly, at level 17 my defender is pretty useless (I do not believe it is capable of using the Spell Storing Item I created, so I don't utilize it for that). Using a bonus action to shove or grapple when I have nothing else for it to do is probably at least as useful as it dealing 6 force damage to a target.

Mostly I'm dragging it around so it can apply the odd disadvantage to an attack roll now and then, and so it can use its Repair feature on my team's Simulacrums (they're constructs, it can explicitly heal constructs).

Note that as a Battlesmith, you can also heal constructs via Aura of Vitality, which does not have restrictions against healing undead and constructs like Cure Wounds does.

If you happen to have a bard in the party, Bardic Inspiration and/or Cutting Words are useful on grapplers.

In general I would highly encourage you to have your Steel Defender grapple, if the DM allows it, because the variance on opposed d20s is higher and so static bonuses are less important than on attack rolls (i.e. weak grapplers still have a decent success rate just due to d20 luck), and a successful grapple eats enemy action economy one way or the other. The enemy may decide to "just" kill the Steel Defender, but you laugh at that because it's so cheap to repair via Mending.

[Evaar]

Mmmm, it's tricky to think of how much is too much investment. If the ogre gauntlets are free, then that is superb, but I see what you mean that an infusion is very valuable.

The spell storing item is another issue, and thanks to your feedback I've reconsidered it a bit - I was originally thinking enlarge, because advantage on grappling up to huge targets, but maybe enhance ability would be better - longer time and way more options out of battle. I thought it might be nice for a mounted combatant fighter friend, but I fear I sacrifice too much to have the spell storing item benefit only the defender, compared to, say, an Aid spell, so enhance is probably a good compromise.

As for hex'ing the enemy, it costs conc but I reckon it'd be worth it for a battlesmith anyway, and a half feat means this is practically free. I'm not sure what other spell or feat would compete with it.

Overall, how many of these would you say are needed for the defender to do well grappling? With a base of 2+PB, gauntlets add 2, enhance ability (str) adds advantage while hex adds disadvantage. Until level 11, it's either hex or enhance, but after one can have all 3. How many is enough, and what do you think is too much?

I was thinking maybe give up an infusion until 11, then replace it with enhance ability item? I doubt hex by itself would be enough to reliably grapple, but then again few monsters have athletics or acrobatics proficiencies... Then, at 11th, you trade the gauntlets for the spell storing item, providing the team benefits And your dude benefits in combat.

Honestly I probably won't invest anything into it other than the actions. I would rather use my infusions for other things, and I think Web is a better candidate for Spell Storing Items on every level. (Like if you're using Enhance Ability to increase your pet's chance of being able to grapple for battlefield control... how is it not better to just cast Web with the same action economy and resource expenditure, controlling the battlefield and applying the Restrained condition to boot? It even costs enemies their action to try to escape it like a grapple. It's basically an AOE grapple with a higher DC and more debilitating Conditions.)

Like Max says, without any investment there's still a reasonable chance of success. If you don't succeed, it only cost a bonus action and the chance at a low accuracy, low damage attack. That feels about right.

[whateew]

Note that as a Battlesmith, you can also heal constructs via Aura of Vitality, which does not have restrictions against healing undead and constructs like Cure Wounds does.


I hadn't thought of that, very cool :0. Otherwise, you also make a fair point about using it as bait. It has pretty decent hp, and while the damage may be at most slightly annoying, the grappled condition requires you to Do Something a bit more


Honestly I probably won't invest anything into it other than the actions. I would rather use my infusions for other things, and I think Web is a better candidate for Spell Storing Items on every level. (Like if you're using Enhance Ability to increase your pet's chance of being able to grapple for battlefield control... how is it not better to just cast Web with the same action economy and resource expenditure, controlling the battlefield and applying the Restrained condition to boot? It even costs enemies their action to try to escape it like a grapple. It's basically an AOE grapple with a higher DC and more debilitating Conditions.)


You make a fair point vis a vis battle effectiveness, but there might be a bit more too it - enlarge is completely outdone by web, but enhance ability has out of combat uses too, which I think makes it extra useful. That being said though, I'd never thought of a web item :0

Otherwise, how do you feel about the hex spell? It's an investment sure, but it's a relatively minor one, needing a half feat that most people would want anyway, and increasing our main damage first and foremost before applying here.

[Sigreid]

It would be a DM call as to whether a steel defender is capable of grappling since it lacks hands

"The target of your grapple must be no more than one size larger than you and must be within your reach."
"Using at least one free hand, you try to seize the target by making a grapple check instead of an attack roll:"

You decide whether it has two legs or four but there is no indication that you decide whether it has hands or not.

"You determine the creature's appearance and whether it has two legs or four; your choice has no effect on its game statistics."

"In combat, the defender shares your initiative count, but it takes its turn immediately after yours."

Finally, the steel defender goes after you in the initiative order.

Going after you means that even if it succeeds in a grapple, the target of the grapple is guaranteed an opportunity to escape before your next turn comes around. In addition, being grappled sets the target speed to zero so it is a good way to prevent a creature escaping but it doesn't do much else.

P.S. With the right combination of party members and the right initiative order it might work out but I'm not sure how much it is worth investing in ... but check with the DM about the steel defender being able to grapple.

Nothing in the description says it can't have hands. I don't see any reason you can't have a steel defender monkey or something. Still wouldn't change the game statistics, but it could easily have hands of some sort.

[Evaar]

Otherwise, how do you feel about the hex spell? It's an investment sure, but it's a relatively minor one, needing a half feat that most people would want anyway, and increasing our main damage first and foremost before applying here.

Seems reasonable for the investment. You have two attacks to get some damage bonus out of it, and you can get other nice things from Fey Touched. I don't find that my Concentration is tied up all the time in general. The only thing is that commanding the Defender takes a bonus action, and so does applying Hex. So you can't Hex something and have your Defender try to Grapple on the same turn. But oh well, that's probably fine.

[stoutstien]

It's a solid tactic. Sometimes it's worth readying a BB and let your SD shove the target so you can get your attack off at advantage.

Don't overlook the impact of having the SD use the help action.

[Keravath]

Nothing in the description says it can't have hands. I don't see any reason you can't have a steel defender monkey or something. Still wouldn't change the game statistics, but it could easily have hands of some sort.

It's still a DM call since the description only says 2 or 4 legs and doesn't mention arms or the ability to manipulate objects. If the form is completely malleable then I'll create one with 4 legs for stability and 8 arms for grappling up to 8 targets or pouring drinks or climbing ... having arms/hands and the number of them provides mechanical benefits and allows the steel defender a wider choice of actions it can take while the description says that the form doesn't affect the abilities. This puts it very firmly in the hands of the DM. I agree that a monkey form might look cool and make sense but it is up to the DM.