[3.5] Sanctified Spells for Favored Soul 2.0

[Thurbane]

So, I asked the question once, how can Favored Souls make use of Sanctified spells (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?598724)?

The advice at the time was largely centred around Arcane Preparation, or using magic items.

To get access to Arcane Preparation, a single classed FS has to have a way to spontaneously cast arcane spells. The Southern Magician feat was suggested. I recently also realised that the Magical Training feat could also work.

But then, a major flaw was pointed out to me: the wording for Arcane Preparation only allows you to memorize spells you know:


Each day, you can use one or more of your spell slots to prepare spells you know, usually for the purpose of applying a metamagic feat to the spell - but without an increase in its casting time.

A FS does not know any Sanctified spells.

It seems bizarre to me that a FS of a good deity has no access to Sanctified spells.

There's a feat for corrupt spells: Corrupt Arcana (and even then, you still need a scroll or similar).

So my question is this: short of homebrew or relying on items, is there any way for a single classed Favored Soul to access sanctified spells (and preferably the whole list, not just 1 or 2 select spells)?

Cheers - T

[sreservoir]

I'm not sure, by this standard, that a druid can cast sanctified spells, either, since

Divine spellcasters do not require spellbooks. However, such a character’s spell selection is limited to the spells on the list for his or her class (see Chapter 11: Spells).
and sanctified spells aren't actually on the list for any class.

They're explicitly listed in the list of classes that "can all prepare sanctified spells", though...

[Thurbane]

Yeah, I feel like the rules around Sanctified (and Corrupt) spells could have been far more clear and simple.

I'm guessing they were written by one of the devs who was still of the school of thought that spontaneous casters were OP, and needed to be held in check.


Spellcasters prepare sanctified spells just as they do regular spells, and casters who do not prepare spells (including sorcerers and bards) cannot make use of them except from a scroll. Evil characters cannot cast sanctified spells, including ones cast from magic items.

On one hand, I can see the logic they were going for: if you allowed spontaneous casters to use Sanctified or Corrupt spells, suddenly every Sorcerer is like a Beguiler or Warmage. But then they throw that logic right out the window by saying that Clerics can spontaneously swap any memorized spells for Sanctified spells the same way they do for Cure spells. :smallconfused:


While wizards, druids, rangers, and paladins can all prepare sanctified spells, clerics have a special advantage: they can spontaneously cast any sanctified spell, just as they can spontaneously cast cure wounds spells.

I know BoED was pretty early 3.5, but surely they had some idea how powerful Cleric already were by that point? And in yet another case of playing evil characters being "badwrongfun", evil Clerics don't get that same option for Corrupt spells.

The poor old Favored Soul seems to inherit the worst of both worlds: they have the innate limitations imposed on spontaneous casters, but have none of the extended support that spontaneous arcane casters got in terms of feats, ACFs etc. It feels like every book released after MH/CD basically forgot that Favored Souls (or any other form of spontaneous divine caster) existed, with the exception of a small handful of ACFs (PHB2, EoE, DrM and DotU).

I mean, it would be very simple to house-rule or homebrew a solution, but I'd like to explore any RAW options first.

[Ruethgar]

Grab Sanctum spell, now you can sanctify your spells with your sanctum!

On a serious note, I’ve nothing to add. I’m always evil, if not in action, then in subtype.

[LunaticChaos]

Well, this takes a very LIBERAL interpretation of the rules and text, but when dealing with RAW for what is an extremely odd situation that's probably par for the course. Nor would this be terribly VIABLE in a nonepic game (Its not possible via single classing, but this is the only solution I can find that completely unlocks things for you) but here's my two cents.



The Rainbow Servant PRC has some potential to resolve this. Specifically the text for its capstone ability:

Cleric Spell Access: A 10th-level rainbow servant can learn and cast spells from the cleric list, even if they don't appear on the lists of any spellcasting class he has. Such spells are cast as divine spells if they don't appear on the sorcerer/wizard or bard spell lists. This class feature grants access to the spells, but not extra spells per day. The 10th-level rainbow servant can likewise read scrolls with cleric spells on them and use wands and staffs that contain cleric spells.

Combined with the text for the Sanctified Spell list from BoED

This section begins with a list of sanctified spells, which are
available to any class that prepares spells rather than casting
them spontaneously.

I would argue that this means that Sanctified Spells are explicitly on the Cleric Spell List, they are just given their own section for brevity's sake. And unlike some abilities, the Rainbow Servant's "Cleric Spell Access" does not specify any single spellcasting class, rather it grants this ability to all spellcasting classes for the character. So this comes down to a DM ruling of which rule trumps which. But by RAW you can make the argument that the Rainbow Servant wins out.

The downside of course is that its practically useless way to get around the spontaneous restriction, at least for a Favored Soul. This option is much more viable for a Sorcerer which kinda compounds your point Favored Souls were just kind of forgotten while Sorcerers got all the love.

[redking]

There is no way to do it without homebrewing. May I suggest a divine adaption of the exalted arcanist?

Change the prerequisites skills to: Knowledge (religion) 9 ranks, Spellcraft 4 ranks (using the dead levels variant of favoured soul which everyone should be using anyway).
Change the prerequisite spells to: Able to spontaneously cast 3rd-level divine spells.

That's it. Once you make those changes, the exalted arcanist works right out of the box. It's pretty crazy that a divine adaption wasn't on the cards in the first place.

[Darg]

Wizards can only prepare spells they know. The text in arcane preparation to the same effect would have no bearing on whether the character gets sanctified spells.

So yes, magical training would work to qualify for arcane preparation which would give you access to sanctified spells.

[Crake]

If you think a rule is dumb, and you can convince your DM that the rule is dumb, then you can just change the rule to something that's not dumb, like spontaneous casters can just pick sanctified spells, and just be done with the issue, instead of trying to shoehorn in some roundabout, annoying solution.

[RandomPeasant]

If you think a rule is dumb, and you can convince your DM that the rule is dumb, then you can just change the rule to something that's not dumb, like spontaneous casters can just pick sanctified spells, and just be done with the issue, instead of trying to shoehorn in some roundabout, annoying solution.

Pretty much this. As a DM, I am much more inclined to try to make things work if you say "the rules here are dumb and stop me from doing what I want" than if you say "if you assume specific meanings of the words 'prepare', 'know', 'spontaneous', and 'spellcaster', there's an interpretation of this rule that already lets me do what I want". Generally speaking, if the simple interpretation of RAW does not agree with you, a convoluted argument will not be persuasive to many people.

[Thurbane]

Well, in fact, I am the DM. Rule 0 or homebrew is definitely an option. If I was going to go down this route, I'd just home brew a sanctified version of Corrupt Arcana. Or an adaption of Exalted Arcanist, as suggested.

However, I like as much of my game to be RAW legal as possible. Or, you know, if I want to enter a build into a forum competition.

Given the amazing levels of cheese, game breaking and rule bending that can happen with cunning applications of RAW, I thought there might still be hope for a RAW solution.

[RandomPeasant]

I would ask if, as a DM, doing this creates the kind of precedent you want people to use in your game. Suppose a player was making a very finnicky, technical argument for why they should get to do something you wouldn't want in your game (perhaps something along the lines of "if I learn it from a scroll scribed by a Death Master, my Wizard can get animate dead as a 2nd level spell"). Would you accept that? Making an argument like this changes how your table is going to perceive the rules in a way I don't think will be healthy, and begging a special exception for the cases you like is unlikely to be well-received.

[Thurbane]

I would ask if, as a DM, doing this creates the kind of precedent you want people to use in your game. Suppose a player was making a very finnicky, technical argument for why they should get to do something you wouldn't want in your game (perhaps something along the lines of "if I learn it from a scroll scribed by a Death Master, my Wizard can get animate dead as a 2nd level spell"). Would you accept that? Making an argument like this changes how your table is going to perceive the rules in a way I don't think will be healthy, and begging a special exception for the cases you like is unlikely to be well-received.

I feel like you are implying I'm trying to fudge the rules in favour of NPCs/monsters, which is simply not true. If it were, I wouldn't even bother looking for a RAW answer first, I'd just write a little footnote in my campaign notes and move on.

Heck, as a DM I'm much more likely to be using evil NPCs (as encounters), and there is already a RAW option for evil characters doing exactly what I'm trying to achieve for good characters.

I'm not a punitive or unfair DM at all, I'm definitely the most open in my group to allowing official sources at my table. I've never once had any player approach me with a concept or request that I wasn't somehow able to help them meet. Have I discouraged them from using combos/exploits that would make the game less fun for others? Yes, definitely. Also, my group is pretty low op, I know for a fact this would be entirely a non-issue for them.

And as I said, also asking for purposes of possible future forum competition entries, which, again, is why I was seeking a RAW option first.

Finally, I also have a soft spot for the Favored Soul, and I'm considering writing a handbook at some point. For this I need RAW, not house rules or home brew.

[redking]

Well, in fact, I am the DM. Rule 0 or homebrew is definitely an option. If I was going to go down this route, I'd just home brew a sanctified version of Corrupt Arcana. Or an adaption of Exalted Arcanist, as suggested.

I forgot that you would have to adjust the BAB and saving throws up a bit as well.

[Thurbane]

Speaking of Exalted Arcanist, I was thinking there might be an exploit using Dragonblood Spell Pact for a FS to grab at least a couple of Sanctified spells as spells know, but it looks like EA doesn't actually "know" Sanctified spells.


A 5th-level exalted arcanist can use sanctified spells as though they were among her spells known.

Even the Blessed of the Seven Sisters feat specifies adding the spells to "one arcane spellcasting class". Just realised these aren't Sanctified spells that the feat grants.

Goddamn FS got left behind by splat books.

Just go have a look through feats, items and PrCs that have benefits specifically for spontaneous casters: the vast majority specify "arcane" in there somewhere. It's infuriating.

Got excited reading Exalted Arcanist, thought a FS could qualify using Southern Magician, and the table says "+1 level of existing class"! Then I read "as if she had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which she belonged before adding the prestige class level". There's that damn word again - arcane! Good old text trumps table, eh? :smallmad: So yeah, there is a RAW legal way for a FS to get access to sanctified spells, by losing 5 caster levels. :smalltongue:

[Darg]

Goddamn FS got left behind by splat books.

Just go have a look through feats, items and PrCs that have benefits specifically for spontaneous casters: the vast majority specify "arcane" in there somewhere. It's infuriating.

Sadly, it's the same for Spirit Shaman. To top it off, WotC created the spontaneous divine casters variant.