Scroll-less World Solution for more spells

[KyleG]

In my world magic is fairly prevalent (inate even), at least at cantrip and first level and bits and pieces beyond. Those who push the arcane boundaries beyond usual do so in informal settings (think the magicians and hedge wizards). As such magic is learnt from observation and experimentation and scrolls are rather rare, magically tomes more like ones own shorthand and workings, and thus hard to share without the owner guiding.
In their place I want to give my parties wizard (evoker) the opportunity to learn what would have been found, and I need a mechanic of observation and perhaps intelligence checks to enable it. The player pitch might be something like if you see a spell performed x times you've seen enough to start to write notes (aka pre-scroll) and now must make intelligence checks over x days to lock in your understanding. Obviously I don't want to do this for every spell but something like this might suffice to replace scrolls.

In the campaign is designed to happen over months not days with periods of downtime between adventures possibly pushing that out to a year or so. Mayeb a better solution would be something like during a LR they get to roll a d20. If they roll under their proficiency bonus (starting at L3 so would have to roll a 1), they make enough notes from their memory to form the basis of a scroll of what they saw that day (DM chooses spell/random). Then normal scroll rules apply (save for it not being usable to cast).

That seems simple enough of a mechanic although not sure about the odds.

How would you implement this?

[JackPhoenix]

Just let them find NPCs willing to teach them new spells?

[DarknessEternal]

Just ban Wizards since you clearly hate them.

[noob]

In my world magic is fairly prevalent (inate even), at least at cantrip and first level and bits and pieces beyond. Those who push the arcane boundaries beyond usual do so in informal settings (think the magicians and hedge wizards). As such magic is learnt from observation and experimentation and scrolls are rather rare, magically tomes more like ones own shorthand and workings, and thus hard to share without the owner guiding.
In their place I want to give my parties wizard (evoker) the opportunity to learn what would have been found, and I need a mechanic of observation and perhaps intelligence checks to enable it. The player pitch might be something like if you see a spell performed x times you've seen enough to start to write notes (aka pre-scroll) and now must make intelligence checks over x days to lock in your understanding. Obviously I don't want to do this for every spell but something like this might suffice to replace scrolls.

In the campaign is designed to happen over months not days with periods of downtime between adventures possibly pushing that out to a year or so. Mayeb a better solution would be something like during a LR they get to roll a d20. If they roll under their proficiency bonus (starting at L3 so would have to roll a 1), they make enough notes from their memory to form the basis of a scroll of what they saw that day (DM chooses spell/random). Then normal scroll rules apply (save for it not being usable to cast).

That seems simple enough of a mechanic although not sure about the odds.

How would you implement this?
It makes way too low odds of learning at low levels where it matters by far the most to learn new spells.
It is also rather odd that by seeing a single spell once in a day you are more likely to learn it than by seeing the same spell 100 times then seeing one person cast a cantrip that is not that spell within the day.

[KyleG]

I'm not against wizards, infact im looking for a solution. What ive suggested may well not be the solution but im trying to find a something that will allow additional spells to be learnt, so it isnt a negative on the wizard.

So maybe it would be easier to ask how many scrolls one l might normally find from level 1-8, and how I could introduce those spells sans-scrolls or formal tuition.

[Anymage]

First, this spellbooks are already written in an idiosyncratic hand. That's part of the reason you need time and effort to copy it into your spellbook instead of just being able to pick up someone else's and prepare from it effortlessly.

Second, while many DMs do use scrolls as a way to give wizard players access to new spells, in universe scrolls aren't really good for transmitting spell knowledge. They're more expensive than simply copying a spellbook page, and they disappear after being read while the copied spell doesn't. They have their uses, but being scroll light isn't a problem by itself.

Third, if this is a world where lots of people have some level of magic, it shouldn't be too hard to say that the wizard is good at scientifically figuring out how those people manipulate magic to achieve those effects, and recreating those patterns. You will need some handwavium to explain why the PC can only figure out some effects (those on the wizard list). But working with a magic talent in order to figure how to translate their talents into something spellbook recordable, for the same money and time as normal copying, should work. You'll have to have more friendly NPCs to make up for the fact that you can't find a pile of NPCs like you can a pile of scrolls, but it's quite doable.

[quindraco]

In my world magic is fairly prevalent (inate even), at least at cantrip and first level and bits and pieces beyond. Those who push the arcane boundaries beyond usual do so in informal settings (think the magicians and hedge wizards). As such magic is learnt from observation and experimentation and scrolls are rather rare, magically tomes more like ones own shorthand and workings, and thus hard to share without the owner guiding.
In their place I want to give my parties wizard (evoker) the opportunity to learn what would have been found, and I need a mechanic of observation and perhaps intelligence checks to enable it. The player pitch might be something like if you see a spell performed x times you've seen enough to start to write notes (aka pre-scroll) and now must make intelligence checks over x days to lock in your understanding. Obviously I don't want to do this for every spell but something like this might suffice to replace scrolls.

In the campaign is designed to happen over months not days with periods of downtime between adventures possibly pushing that out to a year or so. Mayeb a better solution would be something like during a LR they get to roll a d20. If they roll under their proficiency bonus (starting at L3 so would have to roll a 1), they make enough notes from their memory to form the basis of a scroll of what they saw that day (DM chooses spell/random). Then normal scroll rules apply (save for it not being usable to cast).

That seems simple enough of a mechanic although not sure about the odds.

How would you implement this?

You just want some homebrew methods for the party wizard to learn spells without needing scrolls? Sure. Here's one for each of the two mechanics you just described:

1) It's already the case that any time the wizard witnesses a wizard spell being cast with a perceptible component, they can make an Arcana check with advantage to identify it (DC = 10 + SL). That's in Xanathar's. Grant your wizard the following ability: if both of the dice succeed on the check (meaning they would have passed the check even with disadvantage), they figure out how the spell works, and can scribe it into their spellbook later at the standard cost in time and money, but without needing anything physical to hand to copy. Standard restrictions apply, so this can only be done for a spell of a low enough level for the wizard to cast.

2) For downtime, let the wizard attempt to invent new spells from nothing by using the rules from Xanathar's for the time and money cost to make a spell scroll plus the time and money to copy it into their spellbook; add to this that the wizard must make an Arcana check with disadvantage, DC = 10 + SL*2, and on a failure, the time and money are wasted. That means inventing new spells is hard, but with enough time and money, it can be done - just gotta keep trying til you make it.

Wizards are balanced around being full prep-casters anyway - that is, WOTC wrote them assuming they'd have every spell in the game, just like they wrote Druids assuming they'd be able to wear Half-Plate. You won't break anything making it easier for Wizards to pick spells up - their difficulties in doing so are intended to be flavor. Don't forget, per Tasha's, all wizards know all wizard cantrips anyway, so you shouldn't make the wizard roll to learn new wizard cantrips - they already know all of them.

[Thunderous Mojo]

.... magic is learnt from observation and experimentation and scrolls are rather rare, magically tomes more like ones own shorthand and workings, and thus hard to share without the owner guiding.
In their place I want to give my parties wizard (evoker) the opportunity to learn what would have been found, and I need a mechanic of observation and perhaps intelligence checks to enable it.

I've run something similar...you can either just award spells or allow the player to make an Arcana check: DC 10 + Spell Level. An Evoker that encounters Hell Hounds for example, might just learn the principles of how to cast Burning Hands without any rolls.

This also allows acquiring Magic to feel mythic. Perhaps the only way to learn the Shapechange spell is from a Gold Dragon. Tricking a Water Elemental to give up the secrets of Control Water has a literary feel to it.

[KyleG]

I've run something similar...you can either just award spells or allow the player to make an Arcana check: DC 10 + Spell Level. An Evoker that encounters Hell Hound's for example, might just learn the principles of how to cast Burning Hands without any rolls.

This also allows acquiring Magic to feel mythic. Perhaps the only way to learn the Shapechange spell is from a Gold Dragon. Tricking a Water Elemental to give up the secrets of Control Water has a literary feel to it.

I like this. It sorta plays into an idea I had for magical gems to be found inside some creatures...details still sketchy.
Thanks for the help.

[Verble]

I like using spell charged tokens instead of scrolls. It makes me think of how hag magic can be used. So you might have a chicken foot of magic missile, or a coin with a hole in the center that has a charge of detect magic that you use by looking through the hole and triggering the magic. These tokens could then also be used to learn their spells by studying and destroying the item as you pick apart the magic.

[Thunderous Mojo]

I like this. It sorta plays into an idea I had for magical gems to be found inside some creatures...details still sketchy.
Thanks for the help.

My pleasure. Sounds like a fun idea...good luck with it!

[DwarfFighter]

How would you implement this?

So this is what you are getting rid of:

1. Spells can be acquired ready-to-cast as a one-time resource
2. Wizards can expand their repertoire outside of leveling-up

So the first part really affects all spell-casters. Fine.

The second part seems to hit Wizards the hardest, so I'm going to assume that the mechanic you are looking for is mostly to counteract that loss of character potential.

Here's what you do:

Arrange the magical schools in a circle, wheel of fortune style. When the Wizard cast a spell, he places a tick in sector matching the school he cast, or he can count clockwise or counter-clockwise, one school at a time, to the next school that has fewer ticks than the current school and mark that. This represents the wizard building his knowledge through practice and extending his knowledge of the related scools of magic. This makes the most sense if you arrange the schools in an order that makes sense to you.

In addition, when an enemy spell caster successfully casts a spell the Wizard can see he can make an Intelligence check at DC 10 + spell level and if the check is successful he can place a tick in the corresponding school only. This represents the Wizard learning from the examples of others.

Example:

...
Conjuration - 0 ticks
Necromancy - 4 ticks
Evocation - 6 ticks
Abjuration - 5 ticks
Transmutation - 3 ticks
Divination - 4 ticks
Enchantment - 0 ticks
Illusion - 0 ticks
...

If the wizard casts an evocation spell, he can place a tick in Evocation, because this is the school of the spell he cast.

Counting counter-clockwise he can instead place a tick in Necromancy (fewer ticks than Evocation), or Conjuration (fewer ticks than Necromancy), but not in Illusion (same number of ticks as Conjuration).

Counting clockwise he can instead place a tick in Abjuration (fewer ticks than Evocation), or Transmutation (fewer ticks than Abjuration), but not in Divination (more ticks than Transmutation).

When the Wizard has placed enough ticks in a school he can attempt to learn a new spell, i.e. n ticks per spell level, let's say 5. The ticks are cleared back to 0 for that school, and the Wizard uses the normal rules for copying spells from scrolls to add the spell into his spell book. If the copying spell task fails the ticks are wasted, just like a scroll is wasted (destroyed).

Benefit: The Wizard character is in control of his chance of learning new spells, instead of having to get lucky and find them, and most of his class feature in this regard remains intact.

Also, the DM doesn't have to track anything, the player does all the work.

-DF

[KorvinStarmast]

Just ban Wizards since you clearly hate them. Laughed, I did. :smallbiggrin: