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metalbear
2007-11-14, 12:07 AM
I am a relatively new gamer in D&D, and I have a problem. My problem is my DM has decided to allow one of my friend's level 17 warmage gnome, level 16 halfdragon fighter, and level 17 human assassin take my current gaming group. We are currently all around level 9 and ten, but we are being leveled up for this encounter.
The player we are to going up against is much more experienced than anyone else in my group (he has been playing for seven years now, compared to my seven months). He has a number of modifications on his characters that make this a very worrisome contest for my party. Firstly his warmage used a wish spell to cast teleport at will. He also has an obseenly high armor class, along with the the warmage's excellent will saves. I am completely lost as to how I should even begin to try attacking him.
The halfdragon fighter is also a cause of worry for my party. Apparently he has a strength score of 40, and he also is equipped with a ridiculous amount of magical items and weapons. As to the assassin, I am ignorant to what his capabilities are.

My party:
Half dragon cleric of Kord
Domains of strength and luck
has high wisdom and strength scores

Human fighter
Specializes in bastard swords and heavy armor
has improved mount feat
several score modifying items
high strength, charisma, dex, and const

Human Rogue
Has a large arsenal of powerful and evil items
has spiderclimb ability
high dex score, but that's about it

Four-armed orcish variant
has very high strength, but low int., cha., and dex
uses long spear four handed

Half orc barbarian
Really good ability scores
uses enchanted great axes
has some other decent magic items

any suggestions on how to overcome my arrogant friend would be great.

Grimfist
2007-11-14, 12:16 AM
He used a wish to gain the ability to teleport at will?

This smells of cheese and lousy DMing.

I'm not familiar with the warmage class, but if he has low fort saves, smack him with something nasty that requires a fort save.

Edit: Although his obscene AC probably isn't armor based, so he'll likely have a high touch AC too.

Double edit: No, seriously. Kill the DM that allowed him to do that.

SadisticFishing
2007-11-14, 12:19 AM
What!? Warmage's don't get Wish, and there is NO way a wish can be used for that.

To win the encounter, pull out a Player's Handbook and Complete Arcane and make his character cease to exist.

Otherwise, sneak up on him and poison his soup.

VerdugoExplode
2007-11-14, 12:39 AM
It sounds like you're in a bad spot as the DM for those three characters pretty much said "Write whatever you want on your character sheets, its alright, I don't care, now lets send them against a legitimate party." I suggest you get your BAB as high as you can, the easiest method being erasing the current value and writing a higher number in its place. You can also add a 1 to either the front or the back of the current number for a quick boost. You can do the same for armor as well, its a universal strategy really. Finally get a +10 keen vorpal cheater bane falchion using the aforementioned method and go to town.

JaxGaret
2007-11-14, 01:04 AM
Have your Cleric spam Fort save SoDs or SoSs at the Warmage until it loses.

Also, have your Cleric make sure that its Will and Fort saves are good enough to survive a couple of rounds of the same. The Luck domain is an excellent choice here - any other ways that the Cleric can get save rerolls is good.

Have all of your fighting types go to engage their fighting types ASAP. Hopefully they will crush them into the ground, and your Cleric can hopefully win the day against their Warmage.

Guy_Whozevl
2007-11-14, 01:26 AM
For the Barbarian, go Leap Attacking Shock Trooper. That should instant kill anything that it hits (if you invested in Frenzied Berserker). In order to counteract the FB's drawback, take Righteous Wrath from Book of Exalted Deeds; you remain in control and can shaken enemies if you hit them when raging. With the Cleric, just use Miracle cheese to counteract the Warmage's stuff. Also, cast Death Ward/some Energy Resistance on the party, as the Warmage gets blasting junk and some SoDs. The human Fighter has it the easiest based on what mount you take; use Leadership to get a flying mount and make fly-by swipes at the enemy, as they seem to lack any way to fly. Your four-armed orc varient seems to be theoretically good at grappling, so just pin down the Warmage while the Cleric/Barbarian/Rogue nukes down the Half-dragon fighter. The human Assassin can be problematic (with Escape Artist and all), but one solid hit from a well-built melee build should rip him apart. SoDs against him are also effective, as they lack good Will or Fortitude saves as Assassins.
Honestly, the Warmage is the least of your troubles if you neutralize his abilities. Gnome size + four armed orc = doomed Gnome, Teleport or not. If the Assassin has Hide in Plain Sight and no one invests in a Listen or Move Silently (spells can't be used to see him), you all are going to be SAed into oblivion. The enemy Half-dragon fighter, despite the strenght, is a pushover due to bad saves.

mabriss lethe
2007-11-14, 02:34 AM
Play like a DM.

1. Recruit an army, mercenaries, Goblins, zombie hordes, whatever. Throw enough disposable meat at the problem to grind away the enemy party's reserves of magic, fun toys, widgets and gimicks. You aren't trying to kill them, but if that happens that's a plus too. Every dent your army puts into the enemy's armor is one more weakness you can exploit.

2. Engage on your terms. Make the enemy come to you at a place of your choosing. You have to make them want to come to you, in a daring move have the thief steal something important to one of the enemy, leading them into an ambush. Traps, Dead Magic zones, Disjunctions, Dimensional Anchors (or whatever that spell is...), Symbols of Insanity in unconventional places (my favorite is a "poorly disguised" secret door that opens onto a blank wall with the symbol behind it) . Stuff like that could really slow a teleport hopping warmage and company down.

3. Fight dirty. Poisons, curses, whatever. turn it into a war of attrition. Make the enemy pay in spades for every step of dirt he takes to get to you.

4. Then follow everyone else's advice in this thread.

ZeroNumerous
2007-11-14, 02:46 AM
Warmage: Pit him against a real wizard. Watch him cry.

Fighter: Maximized Reached Split Ray Shivering Touch. Using Easy Metamagic: Split Ray, Arcane Thesis: Shivering Touch, and Incantatrix to reduce the overall metamagic cost to +1.

Assassin: See Invisibility. Repeat Fighter strategy.

JaxGaret
2007-11-14, 02:50 AM
Mabriss makes a good point. If their DM is going to allow completely broken, dirty, non-rules based cheese, to counter that, you can go with completely legal, by-the-book cheese.

A few simple ones off the top of my head are:

Everyone in your party takes the Leadership feat.

Multiclass into fast progression spellcasting PrCs (Ur-Priest, Divine Crusader, etc.).

Use cheesy core tactics like using Candles of Invocation to Gate in multiple powerful allies.

Etc.


I would personally prefer to win clean, without resorting to cheese, but it's your fight.

Kioran
2007-11-14, 03:04 AM
Empowered or Twin Ray Enervation + Quickened Enervation - it rules. All the negative lvls cost that opposing PC spells, BAB and Saves. Start from flying position and let the warmage have it. He´ll be seriously weakened after the first round and down for the count by the second. In fact, you can continue enervating if you have spells left - it lowers saves by 1 per drained level, and makes the enemied easy targets.......
Seriously, it´s probably even worth using "Extra Spell" to get Enervation, the spell simply rocks as much....

Oh, and get a +7 Cheesebane toothpick or cheater-slaying. This can´t be normal......but with a warmage, you can at least count on him using light or medium armor, so it won´t all be Touch AC. How would I do this....Hmm.

+1 Size
+6 Dex (Natural 16 + 6 Glovesx of dex, which are a really good investment)
+9 Armor (Mithral Chain Shirt +5, so you have full dex bonus)
+5 Ring of Protection +5
+5 Amulet of natural armor

That puts us at 36 - and the rest could be a variety of things, from a Monk´s Belt to a shield. But I guess he´ll have a Touch AC somewhere in the twenties. That´s bad, but can be overcome.....especially if you punch the DM.

Ted_Stryker
2007-11-14, 03:06 AM
What!? Warmage's don't get Wish, and there is NO way a wish can be used for that.
Yeah, not only that, but they don't even get 9th-level spells until 18th level.

I'm not really sure what the point of this exercise is, to be honest.

Rad
2007-11-14, 03:16 AM
Since the DM seems to be lax, hire a wizard (or a Wish spell) to get greater anticipate teleport at will. You cast it once and now each time he uses his ability you get one more round (plus another,, since he used his standard action to cast teleport). This defeats one of the more blatant cases of bad DM; judgement I ever saw.
As for the rest... we'd need more details; however the only ways to counter cheese are a good DM and more cheese; if you lack the first you'll have to resort to the second.
Can you get a candle of invocation ? :smallbiggrin:

On a more serious note, try not to spoil your characters too much; cheese is not that fun in the end when it is the only thing left of your character.
One more option is to refuse to play a confrontation where the rules are not clear; and the DM allowing things outside the usual D&D rules makes them very unclear in the beginning.

Kantolin
2007-11-14, 06:06 AM
Four-armed orcish variant

I am intruiged and want to know more.

But either way, warmages focus on reflex saves more than either of the other two, so see if you can buy things to help improve that.

Kizara
2007-11-14, 07:01 AM
REALLY easy answer to this:

1) Make a wizard 17 (there's better wizard builds, but it honestly doesnt matter), have the wizard prepare and cast Gate. Alternately, make a cleric. Same concept.

Use gate to summon in a Solar, have the Solar also cast Gate to summon in another Solar. Since these beings act the turn they arrive, you can quickly see where this is going.

Win with your arbitarily large number of solars.


2) If the encounter is reduced to your current 9 for some reason, use a Candle of Invocation to do strategy 1. It's even more cheap now because you are doing it at level 9.

3) Tell your DM that you are more than happy to follow the rules both as written and as intended, and not to do cheesy or abusive things. However, this doesn't seem to be his DMing style and that you just want an even playing field. Demand that his friend make his characters by the book only, with no special abilities or exceptions, or you will use the actual rules in unfair combos to make your point.

Dode
2007-11-14, 07:43 AM
There's a term known for when situations likes these pop up. And that's known as "Divine Metamagic: Persistant Spell"

Kizara
2007-11-14, 07:51 AM
I am a relatively new gamer in D&D, and I have a problem. My problem is my DM has decided to allow one of my friend's level 17 warmage gnome, level 16 halfdragon fighter, and level 17 human assassin take my current gaming group. We are currently all around level 9 and ten, but we are being leveled up for this encounter.
The player we are to going up against is much more experienced than anyone else in my group (he has been playing for seven years now, compared to my seven months). He has a number of modifications on his characters that make this a very worrisome contest for my party. Firstly his warmage used a wish spell to cast teleport at will. He also has an obseenly high armor class, along with the the warmage's excellent will saves. I am completely lost as to how I should even begin to try attacking him.
The halfdragon fighter is also a cause of worry for my party. Apparently he has a strength score of 40, and he also is equipped with a ridiculous amount of magical items and weapons. As to the assassin, I am ignorant to what his capabilities are.

My party:
Half dragon cleric of Kord
Domains of strength and luck
has high wisdom and strength scores

Human fighter
Specializes in bastard swords and heavy armor
has improved mount feat
several score modifying items
high strength, charisma, dex, and const

Human Rogue
Has a large arsenal of powerful and evil items
has spiderclimb ability
high dex score, but that's about it

Four-armed orcish variant
has very high strength, but low int., cha., and dex
uses long spear four handed

Half orc barbarian
Really good ability scores
uses enchanted great axes
has some other decent magic items

any suggestions on how to overcome my arrogant friend would be great.

Ok, actual strategy:

1) Demand that your characters have the same wealth ratings as his, per character.

2) Barbarians need to do this build:
barbarian 1 (lion totem variant in complete champion; gives you pounce instead of fast movement at lvl 1)/fighter 2/paladin of freedom 3/Frenzied Beserker 10

Use the Retraining rules in the PHB 2 or just demand to be able to do so if you need to change some things to do this.

Feats:
Power attack, cleave, destructive rage, intimidating rage, leap attack, improved bull rush, shock trooper, Righteous Wrath. The concept is that you take a -16 to your AC, add x5 that amount to your damage, and with raging, magical strength boosts on the like (especially if you have 4 arms!!) and frenzy strength, you will do an obscene amount of damage.
Its like 20 (half orc) +4 (level-based ability boosts) +6 magic (get a belt) +4 rage+ 10 frenzy = 44 strength, for +17 modifer x2.5 (4 arms, rule is in Savage Species) = 42; then add your power attack up 2H power attack (or try to get your DM to let you have a higher modifer for having 4 hands) with supreme power attack= 4 + leap attack = 5. 16x5=80.

So, you do 1d12+122 damage + whatever magical bonuses to damage you have.

Items:

Get a Belt of Battle (magic item compendium), for an extra full round attack. A belt of str +6, a +1, keen, binding (MIC, bars extradimensional travel) adamantium greataxe (imagine 1d12+123 x3 crits!!), a scout's headband (MIC, +2 to spot checks. Can grant dark vision, See Invis or True Seeing for good durations.), +1 leather armor of death ward and heavy fortification, a heartseaker amulet, and maybe a Scarab of Invulnerbility.

You attack, 5 times, for like +36/+36/+31/+26/+21 to hit on your charge, use belt of battle to double that, for 10 attacks (second 5 at same bonus) and you're doing like 1d12+123 damage (NON-CRIT) per hit! I'm sorry, but anything you hit with that is basically instantly dead. You will do well over 1000 damage almost certinally.

I don't really care what his items are, the half-dragon is DEAD up against that.

3) Cleric, take Quicken Spell, Divine Metamagic (Quicken Spell) (also a couple Extra Turnings and Reach Spell) and then spend your actions casting Gate until you run out of 9th level spells. Even if you don't use the loop cheese, gating in 2 solars/round is a gigantic advantage. Also, if your buddies get hit with negative spells, like enervation or ray of enfeeblement, etc, just Mass Heal them to wash it all.

4) Fighter: First off, bastard sword (probably with weapon spec) and shield is likely one of the wrost POSSIBLE fighter builds. If you MUST go straight fighter (which is fairly terrible) take feats that are actually useful:

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain), Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Improved Initiative, and the like. I haven't done a full fighter lock down build, but I know there's one floating around here somewhere.

Hyozo
2007-11-14, 08:26 AM
Okay, you beat a cheesed up group like this the same way you beat a pirateninja. (http://www.goblinscomic.com/tf8.html) Or, if they don't allow that, you could logic them out of existance. Don't sink to the cheese side, that's what they want you to do.

lord_khaine
2007-11-14, 08:32 AM
this is something i saw in another duel, but im sure it will help here as well.

the trick is there isnt any limit to how many templates you put on your gate-called minion, so if you call in a paragon version of something that has blasfemy, then it should instantly kill anything with less than 20HD, because of the caster level boost the paragon template gives.

greenknight
2007-11-14, 08:59 AM
I think you're in a lot of trouble, and it's mainly because you and the rest of your group haven't really powergamed your characters. Here's your main mistakes:

Overall: Your party has no Wizard! If you've been reading these boards, you'll know just how useful Wizards can be. Instead, your group seems to be mostly melee focused, with your character being the only real spellcaster. That's a bad situation right there.

Your Cleric: That half-dragon template has a +3 LA. Unless your DM has house ruled it so that the LA no longer applies, this is very, very bad for a spellcaster. Full spellcasters like Clerics can be incredibly powerful at higher levels, but since their spells are what give them their power, you should try to avoid losing caster levels. I assume for this challenge your character will be ECL 16, with 13 Cleric levels.

For tactics, start by getting your hands on the following equipment:

Rod of Metamagic (Quicken Spell - up to 6th level spells)
Bead of Karma (from a Strand of Prayer Beads)
Ioun Stone (Orange)
Cloak of Charisma +6

You'll also want the Divine Spell Power feat (from Complete Divine).

On the first round (or preferably, right before battle) activate the Bead of Karma and cast Righteous Might. Then use the Rod of Metamagic to cast Dimensional Anchor on the Warmage, move up to the middle of the enemy group (hopefully they're within a single move range, and are fairly close to each other - the spell does have a 40' range, so you don't have to get right beside them) and then boost your caster level even higher with Divine Spell Power (use your Luck Domain re-roll if you need to) and cast Holy Word. Your caster level for Holy Word should be around 20, which should leave them all paralyzed, blinded, deafened for several rounds.

As for the rest of the crew, I suggest you have the Rogue UMD a scroll of Gate, to bring in a Pseudonatural (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm) Dragon of some kind (with as many HD as possible). Have it fight for your group, but don't worry about hitting it with your Holy Word, since you won't be able to get through it's SR.

The others should just stand in a defensive formation, protecting you and the Rogue.

Darrin
2007-11-14, 09:47 AM
any suggestions on how to overcome my arrogant friend would be great.

Based on your description of the builds, it looks like all of these players are a bit too focused on direct damage... a decently-optimized Batman wizard with a little prep could probably hose them all at ECL 9. But more than likely that will just lead to game-ending arguments where they attempt to justify why non-damage spells shouldn't hurt as much as their pet direct damage combos.

If you have access to ToB, try this to make yourself immune to HP damage:

Race: Halfling, Kobold, Grippli, or anything suitably humiliating
Warblade 1/Cleric 1/Barbarian 1/Duskblade 1/Bloodline 3/SwordSage 1/Crusader 1

At ECL 9, you have an Initiator Level of 16.5. This allows you to take the Immortal Fortitude stance (Divine Spirit 8), which makes you unkillable from HP damage (although you'll want to pump your Fort save like crazy, so pick up Diamond Defense from Diamond Mind).

For offense, pick up Martial Stance: Aura of Chaos (Divine Spirit 6), a Gauntlet (1d2 damage), and the Imbued Healing: Luck feat (CompChamp). Now, assuming you can hit (Emerald Razor for a touch attack + True Strike might be good), you do an infinite amount of damage. So... let that half-dragon fighter charge in with Power Attack.

I'm not entirely sure what to do with the insta-porting Warmage, since he has an instant "get out of combat free" card. Although you could try asking the GM if you can buy a Candle of Invocation, summon an efreet or solar, and fight wish-cheese with wish-cheese.

fendrin
2007-11-14, 10:30 AM
Either you and your party should get just as much cheese as the opponents, or this is a case of DM absuiveness.

If you get the same cheese, make sure to save the original character sheets, so the whole things can be hand-waved away as a bizarre dream sequence caused by accidentally cooking with hallucinogenic mushrooms. Then, use a combination of the best suggestions above to uber-cheese your way to victory. Raise an army, have them swarm, gate in an army of Solars, and everything else.

If you don't get the same level of cheese, there is really only one way to win: refuse to play. Yup, the only power greater than DM Fiat is Player Fiat. Get up and walk out.

I have had to do it once in the past, and yes the DM was furious, but he forgave us. In fact, I was later one of his groomsmen and another person who walked out was his best man (in fact, all of the people who walked were at the wedding...)

Solo
2007-11-14, 10:36 AM
UMD is your friend. Spam Save or X spells.

metalbear
2007-11-14, 10:51 AM
I just want to say thanks for all the help everyone. It look like I'll have to resort to cheese to win this one, but you gotta' fight fire with fire. I think I'll use the gate in solar tactic along with having the other characters trying to raise armies through leadership. Also, all the recomendations on how to make the characters themselves has been incredibly helpful. The tips on optimum equipment set ups has been particularly helpful as was the advise on feat optimization.

Now to clarify some of the questions:
The warmage gained teleport at will from a ring of wish
He also used one of the wishes to gain stone fist permanently
The four armed orc variant is a fan made race from a site we found a couple months back, but I can't quite recall what site it was though

But thanks again for all the advise, and any more suggestions would be greatly appreicated.

Artanis
2007-11-14, 02:11 PM
I'm not familiar with the warmage class, but if he has low fort saves, smack him with something nasty that requires a fort save.
Since Warmage is one of the few classes I actually have played...

If you're familiar with the Beguiler, it's the same general concept, only nuking instead of messing with minds. If you aren't familiar with the Beguiler, take a Sorcerer, remove literally every single non-damage spell, give him knowledge of all spells on his list (a la Druid or Cleric), and add a Bard's ability to cast while in armor. Then you more or less have a Warmage.


Really, it's only an arcane caster in the most technical definitions of the term ("casts spells that are arcane"). It plays more like an archer with arrows that go boom.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-14, 02:16 PM
Since Warmage is one of the few classes I actually have played...

If you're familiar with the Beguiler, it's the same general concept, only nuking instead of messing with minds. If you aren't familiar with the Beguiler, take a Sorcerer, remove literally every single non-damage spell, give him knowledge of all spells on his list (a la Druid or Cleric), and add a Bard's ability to cast while in armor. Then you more or less have a Warmage.


Really, it's only an arcane caster in the most technical definitions of the term ("casts spells that are arcane"). It plays more like an archer with arrows that go boom.

It's also about the weakest arcane caster class, with direct damage only and no versatility... and that includes Warlock.

Fawsto
2007-11-14, 02:19 PM
Ok... Pehaps a little trouble here... Level 10... Pehaps at best 15... Against non-core cheese? Hmmm... I'd like to be playing with you... Even the cheese can be destroyed by what is being explained here, and I surely want to see that.

Ok, for advice, the Warmage is the current caster, right? That teleport glitch will suck, so dimensional anchor on him first round. You said strenght domain? Can you consider grappling the Warmage with Bigby's Grasping Hand? After that cast a few SoS/D on him till he drops it.

Have your team to get Standard Tower Shields. It will keep you alive for at least the round you need to pin the Warmage since they will need to destroy the Tower Shields to bypass complete cover (so no full attack from the Half Dragon in the first hit). The cleric should not use the shield, just destroy the Warmage from behind the shield wall. Get the Fighter and the 4armorc to carry those shields.

Have some sort of way to counter the Assassins invisibility and pin him down with some sort of thing that needs a high fort save to make it. If your Rogue has Use Magic Device (and he should have it maxed) give him any item he can pull a desintegrate or destruction out of it, it will probably kill the assassin in 1 blow.

To finish the fight, kill the Half Dragon with the Barbarian leap attack from hell cheese. Just that.

If you do it right, they will fall.

Don't argue with the DM (he can say, oh so you will use that? NO U CAN'T I AM THE DM, DUDE!) or you will leave the RPG group. Just use it.

DivineBriliance
2007-11-14, 02:25 PM
Warmages dont have high ac from heavy armor its probably magic items, so just deal with those then he will be easier for your almost all melee group.

Behold_the_Void
2007-11-14, 02:28 PM
Honestly, my advice here would be to just not play.

DM says you encounter that and you say "I don't want to, so I'm not going to."

TheMeanDM
2007-11-14, 02:42 PM
Well, that warmage has at least 2 Persistent spells upon him (stone hand and teleport).

How about setting up an Initiatite of the Seven Fold Veil.

Kaleidescopic Doom would be wicked...

Most of the Veil saves are Reflex. Only 1 or 2 are Will, and the other(s) are Fort.

The Wards would help keep the opponent bruisers at bay too :)

Perhaps adapt a fighter into a Fighter/Mage Slayer (complete warrior).

tainsouvra
2007-11-14, 03:12 PM
any suggestions on how to overcome my arrogant friend would be great. I recommend physical violence. Normally that would be out of the question, but because the abuse of the rules that group is permitting is tantamount to an assault on gamers everywhere I think I'd let it slide. :smallannoyed:

....
2007-11-14, 03:14 PM
Does dimentional anchor stop teleportation?

tainsouvra
2007-11-14, 03:15 PM
The warmage gained teleport at will from a ring of wish No, he gained it from DM complicity. That item doesn't work that way. :smalltongue:

mabriss lethe
2007-11-14, 03:53 PM
It's also about the weakest arcane caster class, with direct damage only and no versatility... and that includes Warlock.


Warlocks may not be that strong of a casting class, but they're a heckuva lot of fun to play. They're one of my pet classes that I know I'm guaranteed to have a good time playing... especially when they've taken a few levels of rogue.

A high level spellthief could probably do a number on the warmage, not to mention the fact that their SLA for arcane sight is a good way to quickly minimize the surprise factor of an invisible assassin... (AS is also able to be made permanent on a character for 1500 exp.)

but acquiring one for the campaign at this late a date (and levelling him up-to-snuff for the encounter) is probably not possible.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-14, 03:57 PM
Warlocks may not be that strong of a casting class, but they're a heckuva lot of fun to play. They're one of my pet classes that I know I'm guaranteed to have a good time playing... especially when they've taken a few levels of rogue.

Absolutely. But they're fun, Not game-cracking. the warmage seems to be what WotC playtested wizards to be..... need I say more..

WrstDmEvr
2007-11-14, 04:54 PM
Get a wizard and Greater Invis everybody.

For the Warmage:Ghoul Touch + Dimensional Anchor finished off with a coup de grace
For the Fighter: Feeblemind + Bestow Curse
For the Assassin: Ghoul Touch/Hold Person followed with + coup de grace

Also, a Maximized Poison could help with the warmage and assassin to soften them up.

greenknight
2007-11-14, 07:13 PM
Does dimentional anchor stop teleportation?

Please read the spell description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalAnchor.htm).

To those suggesting using a Wizard (including the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil), please look at the OP's party, which was fully described in the first post. It's a Half Dragon Cleric (probably with a +3 LA), a Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian and ...Orc??? Not sure what the Orc is, but with very high Strength and low Int and Cha, I'm guessing the character isn't a spellcaster, particularly not an arcane spellcaster. So my question to all who are suggesting this is, where is that Wizard coming from?

According to the original post, the OP's party only has one full spellcaster (a Cleric), and that one has been crippled by a racial choice which includes a high LA. As far as I can tell, there is no Wizard or other arcane caster in the party. In fact, the entire party seems to be focused on melee combat more than spellcasting, and that includes the Cleric.

Speaking of which, if you don't like my Holy Word plan (or if it doesn't work for some reason), the Cleric might want to prepare a Shivering Touch (from Frostburn). It's another trick the Warmage can't do (Necromancy spell not on the Warmage's list), and a Maximized Shivering Touch will do 18 points of Dexterity damage, which is likely to paralyze both the Fighter and the Warmage. You deliver it as a melee touch attack, so with Righteous Might and the Strength bonus from your Domain, you'll almost certainly hit, and there's no save. If you've got a caster level boost going, you'll also probably beat SR, if the warmage has any.

Edit: Use Incense of Meditation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#incenseofMeditation) to Maximize all your spells as a Cleric. At 4,900 gp, it's relatively inexpensive and the benefit can be huge.

Lochar
2007-11-14, 07:17 PM
Take a dip into Heirophant for Divine Reach, if you can still pull 9th level spells with that LA as well. Then you don't have to close within melee range of the fighters.

Although, you do lose the bonus off your domain, but I think that's better than having to take a chance on being hacked up.

The Glyphstone
2007-11-14, 08:02 PM
What domains did the Cleric select? If one of them is Trickery, awesome. If it's not, get Trickery somehow. None of the classes you're fighting can See Invisibility, so if you're invisible, they are basically unable to hurt you at all.

goken04
2007-11-14, 08:29 PM
Warlocks may not be that strong of a casting class, but they're a heckuva lot of fun to play. They're one of my pet classes that I know I'm guaranteed to have a good time playing... especially when they've taken a few levels of rogue.

A high level spellthief could probably do a number on the warmage, not to mention the fact that their SLA for arcane sight is a good way to quickly minimize the surprise factor of an invisible assassin... (AS is also able to be made permanent on a character for 1500 exp.)

but acquiring one for the campaign at this late a date (and levelling him up-to-snuff for the encounter) is probably not possible.

I would agree w/ you, however! The OP already mentioned abusing Leadership cheese, so this would be a seemingly excellent way to do so. Put that Fighter's reportedly high CHA to good use!

greenknight
2007-11-14, 08:44 PM
What domains did the Cleric select? If one of them is Trickery, awesome. If it's not, get Trickery somehow. None of the classes you're fighting can See Invisibility, so if you're invisible, they are basically unable to hurt you at all.

The OP said Luck and Strength. But Clerics can access any Domain using a Domain Draught (from Magic Item Compendium). If you want to go that route, get the Magic Domain and use a Wand of Greater Invisibility.

JimmyDPawn
2007-11-14, 09:09 PM
A couple things to keep in mind to, make sure you don't fall for them;
Teleport as a spell-like ability
-Is a standard action, so he can't port off and shoot you (without quicken spell)
-Is for most Purposes, a spell. It causes AoO, and if you end up trying to grapple him (or hit him), he has has to make a concentration check.
-Antimagic field. If you win initiative over him, you can drop Antimagic field on him, and have the barb jump him. Now, this would nulify your barb's magic items, but it would also do the same with the Warmage, meaning his armour will be significantly less. Just don't forget you can't shoot spells at him.


Also, as a request, can we hear how it went afterwards? With their weeping and stuff.

mabriss lethe
2007-11-14, 11:21 PM
I would agree w/ you, however! The OP already mentioned abusing Leadership cheese, so this would be a seemingly excellent way to do so. Put that Fighter's reportedly high CHA to good use!

I thought about that while I was at work today. at that level, a spellthief as a cohort could wreak serious havoc on a caster.

metalbear
2007-11-15, 01:54 AM
Wow, I am really amazed about the turnout of advise from everyone. I'm going to talk with my fellow party members but I think the idea of gating in a bunch of solars is a good idea, as is using holy word and maximized chill touch. My friends are also wondering if there is anything fun they can do with sovereign glue (they love the stuff). Also, I recently remembered that the warmage's player likes to use disintergrate on his opponent's equipment because the equipment doesn't get a save throw against disintergrate. But any more suggestions would be great, the more sneaky or mischievous the better. The same would apply for any strategies that would simply overwhelm him.

The showdown is on the 21st, and he (the warmage's player) is already gloating about how he is going to destroy us. This advise will make all the difference, so thank you all very much.

Weasel2007
2007-11-15, 02:48 AM
I assume you will level up more than five times so that you are at a similar level to the opposing party so couldn't the OP become pun-pun (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801), I mean if the other guy is going around gloating it seems an acceptable tactic.

greenknight
2007-11-15, 03:34 AM
Something for the rest of the group to do:

Obtain a Necklace of Adaptation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#necklaceofAdaptation) for each party member, and two lots of Dust of Sneezing and Choking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#dustofSneezingandChoking) for each party member aside from your Cleric and the Rogue. Have them move close to a foe (or allow a foe to get close to them), then open up a bag. Your characters will be immune thanks to the Necklace, but unless your foes are also wearing them they're in trouble.

As for the Disintegrate problem, you might be able to set a trap for the Warmage if the other players are willing to help. Buy (as a group) a Rod of Absorbtion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#absorption). Give it to the Rogue, and "accidently" allow the Warmage player know that the Rogue is going to use some super item in the first round to give your team the win. The player shouldn't use that out of game knowledge to target the Rogue, but human nature says he probably will, and the Rod's going to absorb every spell the Warmage casts on the Rogue (or the Rogue's equipment).

mostlyharmful
2007-11-15, 03:35 AM
[QUOTE=metalbear;3522214]the warmage's player likes to use disintergrate on his opponent's equipment because the equipment doesn't get a save throw against disintergrate. [QUOTE]

Yes it does.

Damaging Magic Items
A magic item doesn’t need to make a saving throw unless it is unattended, it is specifically targeted by the effect, or its wielder rolls a natural 1 on his save. Magic items should always get a saving throw against spells that might deal damage to them— even against attacks from which a nonmagical item would normally get no chance to save. Magic items use the same saving throw bonus for all saves, no matter what the type (Fortitude, Reflex, or Will). A magic item’s saving throw bonus equals 2 + one-half its caster level (round down). The only exceptions to this are intelligent magic items, which make Will saves based on their own Wisdom scores.

Magic items, unless otherwise noted, take damage as nonmagical items of the same sort. A damaged magic item continues to function, but if it is destroyed, all its magical power is lost.

WorthingSon
2007-11-15, 09:26 AM
This is ultimate Cheese right here, but I always use it as my anti-cheese weapon.

Take Crusader.
Use the Aura of Chaos Stance from the Devoted Spirit school. Use a d1 weapon. End of fight.

here is how it works.

Aura of Chaos states that any attack die that you use that does it's maximum when you attack can be re-rolled and added to the previous roll (while in the stance of course). If you are using a d1 weapon then you automatically roll max; like tiny guantlets. so:

1. attack
2. hit
3. get max damage on your damage die (1)
4. return to step 3, carry over you damage so far


Congrats, you have now done infinite damage.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-15, 10:42 AM
D1 doesn't allow for a roll, so that doesn't work. you need at least a d2 wep for that.

Douglas
2007-11-15, 10:53 AM
A d2 weapon and the Imbued Healing (Luck) feat from (I think) Complete Scoundrel that lets you treat your 1s as 2s. Technically you still roll with that combo, but you get 2 no matter what the die says.

Thrawn183
2007-11-15, 12:16 PM
Step 1: Become intimately acquainted with the rules regarding actions in combat (like the warmage casting spells) and concealment as it regards to hiding (Hide in plain sight) and anything in general that counters things your opponents can do (trying to get immunity to poisons to counteract the poisons used by the assassin.

Step 2: Your cleric is by FAR your most powerful character, even taking into account the level adjustment. Concentrate 80-90% of your efforts there:

Note* I am assuming your cleric will be able to cast 7th level spells.
a) Consider Level Adjustment buyoff. Getting those spellcasting levels back... well there's literally nothing more important.
b) Regardless of feats, etc. you can always change a cleric's spell loadout, so no matter what happens, you can always choose great spells.
- Destruction (7th, Core): Save or die. Do I need to say anything else?
- Holy Word and its related (7th, Core): Save or Lose if you can get caster level high enough.
- Greater Dispel Magic (6th, Core): Either suppress opponents' magic items or neutralize enemy warmages spells (Caster level is an issue again.)
- Greater Magic Weapon/Magic Vestment (4th/3rd, Core): Rendering enhancements of > +1 wasteful for years.
- Maximized Moon Bolt (7th equivalent, Spell Compendium): if you can get 3 of these prepared and any kind of caster level boost, that's a guaranteed 24 strength damage to 2 targets assuming they Make every save. Target the warmage to render him unable to move, and the melee'er so he can't hit anything. Ok, so frankly any character other than a strength monster won't be able to move after this, so choose whatever targets you want I guess.
- Heal (6th, Core): basically the only healing spell that might be worth casting in combat.
- Slay Living (5th, Core): backup in case you run out of better spells, Save or Die but it requires a touch attack and it appears the AC's have been cheesed.... a bit.

- Check out spell compendium's, hour/level buffs. In particular, Eyes of the Avoral (1st) and the one that can increase a single skill check: you aught to be able to get somewhere around +22 to your spot (enough to see that hiding assassin :smallbiggrin: )

- Stay away from direct damage spells, your cleric has better things to be doing, especially when you have 3 other characters that are built for melee.

Step 3: Keep that cleric out of melee: you have plenty of damage being served by the melee characters, but only one source of casting (use it!).

Step 4: Think about looking at the melee classes, wait... never mind, go back to tweaking the cleric's spell selection.

Step 5: Go back to Step 4.

Artanis
2007-11-15, 12:32 PM
Y'know, focusing the Cleric to take on the Warmage might only be the best idea if said Warmage is using some sort of melee build. If the Warmage is going to be played as a blaster, the Rogue would possibly be a better option because Warmages rely on a lot of "weapon-like spells" (that require a touch attack against a Rogue's high dex) and AoE spells (which a Rogue can sometimes reduce the damage from). Doing so also has the advantage of letting the Cleric focus on the other two guys who are with the Warmage.

Just a thought.

Thrawn183
2007-11-15, 12:48 PM
That's defnitely a good point artanis.
I focused on the cleric because it sounds like the warmage's AC is just going to be too high for these characters to have any chance of hitting it reliably. Basically I'm arguing for getting spells that aren't rays (touch AC) and preferably don't allow saves/have nasty effects even on saves.

I was trying to give advice on fighting characters that are going to be quite strong in their own ways; that means using your strongest ability (spellcasting IMHO) most effectively (Save or Die and Save or Lose IMHO)

Edit: If you have the time, I'd look at every single spell the warmage gets and figure out how they work within the rules. If your opponent is going to try and pull stuff like disentigrating attended objects, you're going to have to be extraordinarily vigilant.

tainsouvra
2007-11-15, 03:47 PM
Also, I recently remembered that the warmage's player likes to use disintergrate on his opponent's equipment because the equipment doesn't get a save throw against disintergrate. Oh for crying out loud...yes, it does get a saving throw! What the heck is wrong with your DM that he's allowing so many flavors of cheese? :smalleek:

greenknight
2007-11-15, 06:59 PM
Holy Word and its related (7th, Core): Save or Lose if you can get caster level high enough.

Holy Word doesn't allow a save, except against it's banishment effect, and that's not going to happen in this scenario anyway. Mind you, it's useless against undead, but again that's not the issue here. Shivering Touch (from Frostburn) doesn't allow a save either. It's the no save aspect of those spells which makes them so overpowering.


Maximized Moon Bolt (7th equivalent, Spell Compendium): if you can get 3 of these prepared and any kind of caster level boost, that's a guaranteed 24 strength damage to 2 targets assuming they Make every save. Target the warmage to render him unable to move, and the melee'er so he can't hit anything. Ok, so frankly any character other than a strength monster won't be able to move after this, so choose whatever targets you want I guess.

This is a good spell for getting rid of the Assassin, who probably has high Dex and low Str.

With that in mind, here's how I'd tweak the Cleric:

1) Obtain the following items:

* Incense of Meditation 4,900gp
* Necklace of Adaptation 9,000gp
* Cloak of Charisma 36,000gp
* Rod of Metamagic (Quicken Spell - up to 6th level spells) 75,500gp
* Bead of Karma (from a Strand of Prayer Beads) 9,000gp (after the useless Bead of Smiting is removed)
* Ioun Stone (Orange) 30,000gp
* Rod of Absorbtion 50,000gp

That's 214,400gp. A 16th level PC should get 260,000gp according to the DMG WBL guidelines, so you can afford some more stuff if you need it.

I'd suggest you spend some of your leftover cash on a Candle of Invocation (8,400gp). That will give you a +2 Morale bonus to attack rolls, saving throws and skill checks (which also applies to any allies of the same alignment within 30') and allows your Cleric to function as if he/she were 2 levels higher for the purpose of spells per day (that includes the ability to cast higher level spells). The downside is that it's time limited - the benefit only applies up to 3 hours from the time you finish preparing your spells. And of course, there's also the often abused Gate function of the candle, which will allow you to call in a 34HD creature of your alignment.

You'll also need your Cleric to have the Divine Spell Power feat (from Complete Divine), since that should allow you to boost your caster level even more. If you're worried about getting into melee (unlikely, given your character type), also take Reach Spell (from Complete Divine) and cast your Touch range spells from up to 30' away. Having a Good alignment is also strongly recommended for the Holy Word trick, so try to talk your DM into changing your alignment if it's not already Good.

Your tactics should be: Burn some Incense of Meditation, and maybe a Candle of Invocation, when you prepare your spells. That will Maximize all your spells, and with the Candle you'll have access to 8th level spells. Just prior to the attack (if possible) activate the Bead of Karma and cast Divine Power, which will make it more likely you'll hit with your touch attacks.

Now move into the middle of the enemy group and cast a Quickened Dimensional Anchor (using the metamagic Rod) on the Warmage. Follow that up with a Holy Word further powered up by Divine Spell Power. It's an area effect with no saving throw, so it's very hard to defend against (even a Rod of Absorbtion won't help). At that point, hopefully all your enemies are deafened, blinded and paralyzed, so the battle will be practically over.

If there's someone still active after that, on the next round fire off a Quickened (metamagic Rod again) Moon Bolt, followed by a regular Moon Bolt. That's a Long range spell which can affect up to two targets per casting. In order of priority, target the following foes (if they're still active): Warmage, Assassin, Fighter. Assuming your Cleric is 13th level and is still boosted to 17th level through the Bead of Karma, you'll be doing 20 Strength damage per casting (or 10, if they make their save). If you choose the same target twice, that's 40 Strength damage (or 20, if they make their save both times), which should be enough to take the Warmage and Assassin out of the contest, provided they aren't protected (immunity to ability damage or a Rod of Absorbtion would save them). If your quickened spell seems to do nothing against the Warmage and/or Assassin, try targetting the Fighter with your regular spell.

If the Warmage is still active after all that, you've got a real problem on your hands. Hopefully you've got the Candle of Invocation ready, because at this point you should use it to Gate in a 34 HD creature to help you out.

As for the rest of the party, each of them should wear a Necklace of Adaptation and use Dust of Sneezing and Chocking when a foe gets close. Try to keep them spread out (to avoid area effect spells from the Warmage), but the Rogue should keep close to your Cleric and sneak attack (through flanking) anyone who targets you.

metalbear
2007-11-15, 08:23 PM
Okay, it looks like there is a lot of good ideas of things I can do with my cleric. Oh, and by the way he is a chaotic good cleric, so Holy word is definatly a go.

What I am wondering now is what are some other ideas on how to maximize the effectiveness of the rest of my party. Firstly, because I don't want all the party's success to rest on just my cleric's shoulders. Secondly, my friends tend to be a head strong group, and they will want in on the action instead of leaving it all to my cleric. So far there is the good suggestions on how to improve the human fighter (leadership and flying mount) and to take on the crusader class. And there also was good ideas for the barbarian to do ridiculous amounts of damage. Some advise on how to power up our rogue and 4 arm orcish variant fighter would be great.

Could someone post the info on how the moon bolt works (I don't have very much suppliment books).

Thrawn183
2007-11-15, 10:33 PM
Good catch on the Holy Word: I even had the SRD open in a separate window!

Well, I don't want to get TOO specific with Moon Bolt, but I think I can tell you that it is a 4th level spell from Spell Compendium that does variable strength damage (fort save for half) to two targets withing 15 feet of eachother and is long range.

It can be maximized to do 20 str damage at high caster level.

As for your friends... I mean followers? I would advise one to grapple the assassin (though be careful, he might have freedom of movement) because that's your biggest concern. The warmage is just straight damage, and all your characters should have decent enough hp to be able to take it for a while.

Don't forget to be flying. Wind walk (core 6th?) might be just what you're looking for, but I'm too lazy to look it up.