Sand dragon

[Biggus]

I was just looking at the Sand Dragon from Sandstorm, and its saving throws don't seem to match its HD/ability scores at all. I can't see any reason for this, have I missed something or are they wrong?

Also, its CR seems far too high, comparing it to other dragons the great wyrm seems about CR23, rather than the listed CR27. Again, am I missing something?

[Smegskull]

Breath weapon is untyped so ignores resistances

[Biggus]

Breath weapon is untyped so ignores resistances

Fair point, but it's also in d4s where the gold dragon (the only other one that reaches CR27) is in d10s, and the gold has two types of breath weapons while the sand has only one.

[Blackhawk748]

At Will Haboob isn't nothing, its Immune to Fire with no accompanying weakness, and it has higher AC than a Gold of equivalent size.

Maybe its a bit over CRed, but it is a definite threat.

As for the saves, I would guess its because they added the Stat to them, so its the full save.

[Morty_Jhones]

just at 1st glance>..

Great BAB rather than Good which is the normal for Dragons except Red and Silver

Breath weapon Ignores anything under Hardness 6, so, most armour and shield and mobile protection is usless
so any Vegitation, Wooden or light steel barier is ignored for its AOE

Cast's anty water Magic at will, so if the fight dosn't kill you the desert will.

Is immune to fire but without the normal weekness to Cold.

has full range tremmorsence from the get go, normal dragons only get that at eldering or older.

[Crake]

I was just looking at the Sand Dragon from Sandstorm, and its saving throws don't seem to match its HD/ability scores at all. I can't see any reason for this, have I missed something or are they wrong?

Also, its CR seems far too high, comparing it to other dragons the great wyrm seems about CR23, rather than the listed CR27. Again, am I missing something?

The stat blocks are definitely kinda screw-y for the sand dragon. The save DCs for it's breath weapon are also quite inconsistently incorrect, very young should have a DC of 13, not 14, and young adult should have a DC of 20, not the 23 listed. I kinda stopped after that, because yeah, it seems the entire table is just riddled with errors.

[Morty_Jhones]

No the + 5 jump in CR for the last age bracket is Justified.....

Gaining the Sandstorm spell at caster level 15 and SR 20+Cha mod.

[Biggus]

At Will Haboob isn't nothing, its Immune to Fire with no accompanying weakness, and it has higher AC than a Gold of equivalent size.

Maybe its a bit over CRed, but it is a definite threat.

As for the saves, I would guess its because they added the Stat to them, so its the full save.

Its AC is about the same as a gold of equivalent CR, but it's inferior in just about every other way.

If you work out what the saves should be including the stats they're way off. The great wyrm's Fortitude is too high by 20 points for example.


just at 1st glance>..

Great BAB rather than Good which is the normal for Dragons except Red and Silver

Breath weapon Ignores anything under Hardness 6, so, most armour and shield and mobile protection is usless
so any Vegitation, Wooden or light steel barier is ignored for its AOE

Cast's anty water Magic at will, so if the fight dosn't kill you the desert will.

Is immune to fire but without the normal weekness to Cold.

has full range tremmorsence from the get go, normal dragons only get that at eldering or older.


No the + 5 jump in CR for the last age bracket is Justified.....

Gaining the Sandstorm spell at caster level 15 and SR 20+Cha mod.

Are you even looking at the same book I am?

A flaywind ignores anything under hardness 5, not 6.

Most metal armor and shields have hardness 10.

Most dragons don't get tremorsense at all. Do you mean blindsense? If so dragons get that from birth.

What age category do you mean by eldering?

The CR increases by 3 at the last age category, not 5.

Sandstorm is a pretty powerful spell but it's not that powerful, especially at CR23+.

They don't get SR 20+Cha mod at great wyrm, their existing SR just goes up by 2.


The stat blocks are definitely kinda screw-y for the sand dragon. The save DCs for it's breath weapon are also quite inconsistently incorrect, very young should have a DC of 13, not 14, and young adult should have a DC of 20, not the 23 listed. I kinda stopped after that, because yeah, it seems the entire table is just riddled with errors.

Good catch, I hadn't noticed that one. I had a scan over their other stats and they seemed right so I didn't check every one, I'll have another look.

[Blackhawk748]

Its AC is about the same as a gold of equivalent CR, but it's inferior in just about every other way.

If you work out what the saves should be including the stats they're way off. The great wyrm's Fortitude is too high by 20 points for example.


Yes, but remember that Golds are really nasty for their CR, so having AC that high is actually really good.

Huh, that's what I get for doing math just after waking up. Ya, its stat block is freaking weird.

[Biggus]

Yes, but remember that Golds are really nasty for their CR, so having AC that high is actually really good.

As it happens I had a fairly detailed look at this only last week. Dragons in general (at least the MM ones) are about +1CR on average compared to their listed values right across the age categories. When I wrote "comparing it to other dragons the great wyrm seems about CR23" I had at the back of my mind "which means it's probably CR24 in reality" but I didn't want to complicate the discussion.

[the_tick_rules]

great now i got to go read the sand dragon entry.

[Darg]

Sand Dragons get natural AC = HD+1 vs normal dragons getting HD-1.

For the most part, reflex and will saves are equal to CR + modifier. Great Wyrm gets a +5 to will saves out of no where.

Fortitude is CR + mod with a bonus based on age category (+1, +2, +2, +3, +4, +5, +6, +7, +9, +10, +14, +13)

Breath weapon is correct except the very young, young adult, and great wyrm age categories. The correct DCs are 13, 20, and 35 respectively

Burrowing Dragons don't really need tremorsense. They have blindsense and they negate the size penalty to hiding by hiding underground. Blindsense let's them pinpoint creatures as long as they stay adjacent to the surface. Being underground grants them total cover/concealment and they can still strike within their range (the target gets cover and total concealment if the dragon attacks from underground when adjacent to the surface).

[Crake]

For the most part, reflex and will saves are equal to CR + modifier. Great Wyrm gets a +5 to will saves out of no where.

Fortitude is CR + mod with a bonus based on age category (+1, +2, +2, +3, +4, +5, +6, +7, +9, +10, +14, +13)

Dragon saves should be 1/2 HD +2 + ability modifier, and not be related to CR at all.

[Remuko]

Breath weapon is correct except the very young, young adult, and great wyrm age categories. The correct DCs are 13, 20, and 35 respectively

Breath Weapon DCs are 10 + 1/2 HD + Con modifier. Very Young and Young Adult and Great Wyrm all seem correct in the statblock.

Edit:


Sand Dragons get natural AC = HD+1 vs normal dragons getting HD-1.

checking the ACs listed, as least what im reading, all of them are HD-1 Natural Armor bonus, not HD+1. Great Wyrm has 41 AC. 35 Natural (36 HD -1) and -4 Size + 10 base.

[Biggus]

Sand Dragons get natural AC = HD+1 vs normal dragons getting HD-1.

Interesting, thank you, I hadn't noticed that.


For the most part, reflex and will saves are equal to CR + modifier. Great Wyrm gets a +5 to will saves out of no where.

Fortitude is CR + mod with a bonus based on age category (+1, +2, +2, +3, +4, +5, +6, +7, +9, +10, +14, +13)


Where are you getting this from? AFAIK dragon saves work the same as any other creature's good saves, 1/2 HD +2 + ability modifier as Crake says.


Breath Weapon DCs are 10 + 1/2 HD + Con modifier. Very Young and Young Adult and Great Wyrm all seem correct in the statblock.

No, Darg's right.

Very young: 10 + 3 (1/2HD) + 0 (Con) = 13

Young Adult: 10 + 7 (1/2HD) +3 (Con) = 20

Great Wyrm: 10 + 18 (1/2HD) +7 (Con) = 35


checking the ACs listed, as least what im reading, all of them are HD-1 Natural Armor bonus, not HD+1. Great Wyrm has 41 AC. 35 Natural (36 HD -1) and -4 Size + 10 base.

In my copy of Sandstorm great wyrm has +37 Nat AC. Are you looking at the version on the Blades and Beasts Wiki? It's not the same as the official one.

[Crake]

In my copy of Sandstorm great wyrm has +37 Nat AC. Are you looking at the version on the Blades and Beasts Wiki? It's not the same as the official one.


Breath Weapon DCs are 10 + 1/2 HD + Con modifier. Very Young and Young Adult and Great Wyrm all seem correct in the statblock.

Edit:



checking the ACs listed, as least what im reading, all of them are HD-1 Natural Armor bonus, not HD+1. Great Wyrm has 41 AC. 35 Natural (36 HD -1) and -4 Size + 10 base.



Are you two using a (legally purchased of course) digital copy, or a physical copy? It's possible that part of the scanning and converting to text of sandstorm wasn't done very well and that the digital copy might not exactly be consistent with the physical copy?

[Darg]

Are you two using a (legally purchased of course) digital copy, or a physical copy? It's possible that part of the scanning and converting to text of sandstorm wasn't done very well and that the digital copy might not exactly be consistent with the physical copy?

Based on your earlier reply you seem to be looking at the same table as me and Biggus. The table I am looking at has the statistics I posted earlier.

Edit: Google fu shows that other sites have the same statistics. As biggus mentioned, the Blades and Beasts wiki site is using a modified version. Honestly, I think it is a more balanced table and better ability set than the original from sandstorm. Although I must question the CR they assigned the age categories considering the sand dragon has stronger combat abilities and skills than a red dragon (they assigned CR23 vs the red's CR26 for the great wyrm.)

[Biggus]

Although I must question the CR they assigned the age categories considering the sand dragon has stronger combat abilities and skills than a red dragon (they assigned CR23 vs the red's CR26 for the great wyrm.)

I'm curious, what combat abilities and skills are you talking about? As far as I can see a great red wyrm is considerably stronger than a great sand wyrm.

[Blackhawk748]

I'm curious, what combat abilities and skills are you talking about? As far as I can see a great red wyrm is considerably stronger than a great sand wyrm.

In raw muscle? Sure, but the Sand Dragon has a burrow speed and much, much better SLAs and no elemental weaknesses.

It should at least be equal

[Biggus]

In raw muscle? Sure, but the Sand Dragon has a burrow speed and much, much better SLAs and no elemental weaknesses.

It should at least be equal

The Red has 9th-level spells where the Sand only has 7ths, and the Red can choose Cleric spells but the Sand can't. If the Red has a reasonably intelligent spell selection (which it should, with an Int of 26) that alone should outweigh all of the above.

[Blackhawk748]

The Red has 9th-level spells where the Sand only has 7ths, and the Red can choose Cleric spells but the Sand can't. If the Red has a reasonably intelligent spell selection (which it should, with an Int of 26) that alone should outweigh all of the above.

Yes it has Cleric spells, but its still casting as a Sorc which means its got a very limited selection despite how wide that selection is.

And it can obviously mitigate all of the above, but that's the Red dragon needing to actually do all of that, whereas the Sand just is that way. Plus the untyped Breath weapon is really good despite it being d4s as you just kinda need to eat it.

[Darg]

The Red has 9th-level spells where the Sand only has 7ths, and the Red can choose Cleric spells but the Sand can't. If the Red has a reasonably intelligent spell selection (which it should, with an Int of 26) that alone should outweigh all of the above.

I was talking about the Blades and Beasts wiki version which has 8ths, 60ft burrow speed, tremorsense, undermaster as an SLA, better skills, etc. I did just notice that they hit the breath weapon with a big nerf bat and they didn't bother paying attention to the fact that at many age categories they don't even have the charisma necessary to cast the spell levels they have access to.

I think the CRs from the book are appropriate given the inflated statistics. Given the burrow speed and having hide and move silently as class skills it can be pretty tough to take one out if they aren't just standing out in the open. Making use of spring attack feat would make the encounter fairly difficult for an adventuring party of the same level. If the PCs just fly around they'd never find the dragon. If they touch down or fly near the ground they become fodder for the dragon to pick off. Burrow speed is honestly one of the hardest things to overcome if you aren't prepared to counter a big strong grappler with it.