Random Effect Rolls and why the SUCK

[Nagog]

I've noticed a growing trend in a lot of WoTC's new content: randomized effects. The first one I noticed (beyond Wild Magic, who's popularity is likely the cause of the trend) was Alchemist Artificer: Rolling on a d6 table to find out what your free potion of the day does. Later, the Spirits Bard expends a valuable resource to get a random Effect they can bestow on an ally. Most recently, the whatsitsbucket Mischief spell from the Draconic Options UA, which fills a cube with a random Effect, some amazing, others kinda garbage.

I get that Wild Magic is fun and flavorful, but expending resources and/or having a core benefit of a class be randomized really really sucks. Not being able to plan or strategize what you're able and going to do makes the resource investment trashy. If a spirits Bard rolls for a story that gives advantage on Charisma checks in the middle of a dungeon crawl, you just wasted a Bardic Inspiration that could really have come in clutch as a combat boost. If your Alchemist accidentally makes a healing potion on a day focused on RP or exploration, it's more than likely a wasted resource.

All in all, not having reliable effects for resources sucks, and they need to stop making them.

[MaxWilson]

All in all, not having reliable effects for resources sucks, and they need to stop making them.

Personally I share your distaste, but I wonder why your conclusion is "WotC needs to stop making them" and not "I refuse to play them."

[meandean]

I think it works a lot better when at least some of the effects are negative, in order to balance something else the subclass does well. Basically, if you pick the Wild Magic sorcerer, the deal is that you're choosing to have a powerful ability (Tides of Chaos) that has the downside of potentially causing something bad to happen later. It makes sense.

When all of the effects are good, but you never know which one you'll actually get... yeah, I find that an odd mechanic because it confounds all tactics, and I don't have interest in those subclasses. I only speak for myself though, I dunno how the man on the Forgotten Realms street feels about it.

[Nagog]

Personally I share your distaste, but I wonder why your conclusion is "WotC needs to stop making them" and not "I refuse to play them."

Because the Alchemist and the Spirits Bard have the potential to be amazing, flavorful subclasses, except those mechanics in particular make them trashy. A few years ago I wanted to make a Bard Necromancer, but the Spirits Bard didn't exist yet, when I first heard about it, I was eating. Then I read the subclass and hated it. Same for the Alchemist: flavor wise it has boundless potential; mechanically it's terrible. What other flavors and styles are they going to ruin with "lol randum" mechanics?

[Silly Name]

I get that Wild Magic is fun and flavorful, but expending resources and/or having a core benefit of a class be randomized really really sucks. Not being able to plan or strategize what you're able and going to do makes the resource investment trashy. If a spirits Bard rolls for a story that gives advantage on Charisma checks in the middle of a dungeon crawl, you just wasted a Bardic Inspiration that could really have come in clutch as a combat boost.

I would actually assume this is a very good thing: the story you got may make you reconsider your approach, be more focused on spotting opportunities to take advantage of it. In your example, if I were playing that bard, I'd wonder "how do I make use of this advantage on a Charisma check while in a dungeon? Is there some way I could talk the opposition down?"


If your Alchemist accidentally makes a healing potion on a day focused on RP or exploration, it's more than likely a wasted resource.

This I agree with: 4 out of 6 options on the table are too combat-dependant to help a player seek novel ways to use the elixir. It should be noted, however, that


"You can create additional experimental elixirs by expending a spell slot of 1st level or higher for each one. When you do so, you use your action to create the elixir in an empty flask you touch, and you choose the elixir's effect from the Experimental Elixir table."


Emphasis mine. You can choose what elixir you need/want, but it requires expending a spell slot. Still,there's no thematic reason for why your baseline is determined at random.


All in all, not having reliable effects for resources sucks, and they need to stop making them.

I agree they're a bad fit for some concepts, such as the Alchemist, but I don't find them particularly irritating on principle. It's an interesting tool and very fun when used right, and getting a few things revolving around it every once in a while is fun.

[MrStabby]

I feel some of these things should be alternative class abilities. They are cool, flavourful and potentially powerful (well the spirits bard one is anyway) but the randomness of one ability is a major turnoff.

I would love to play a spirits bard, but I see a key part of playing the game to be about making choices - I.e. having the agency to chose what my character does. To have that stolen by a die roll is not my idea of fun.

Having an ability for those who like to make choices for their character and an alternative for those who want more of a LOL RANDOM!!1! experience would let both types of player get value from what is a very characterful offering.

[DwarfFighter]

Personally I share your distaste, but I wonder why your conclusion is "WotC needs to stop making them" and not "I refuse to play them."

I agree. Though to be fair, if WotC makes them, OTHER PLAYERS might use them and annoy OP. So HIS best scenario is for those rules to go away. :p

[sithlordnergal]

I'll be honest, I'm the complete opposite of you. I kind of hope they make more things like that, as I enjoy the randomness of it all. You can still strategize around random effects, and I actually feel that the random effects make for a fun strategic challenge. If you don't get exactly what you want then you need to find a way to use it.

Of course, that's sort of the viewpoint of someone that loves randomness in games. Heck, my absolute favorite class I've ever played was a Chaos Mage in 13th Age. You didn't even get to choose what type of spell you could cast on your next turn. You had it determined randomly to see if you'd cast a spell that buffs, debuffs, or deals damage on top of potential random effects that could happen.

I can see why some people would dislike it, but you shouldn't knock the random stuff without fully trying it. It can really make things more interesting and fun, and can potentially make a boring encounter more entertaining/interesting. The important thing is that you need to have a way to play around the random effects and take them into consideration. If you can't really figure out how the randomness works, or work around it in some way, then it becomes a lot less fun.

[Pex]

I think it works a lot better when at least some of the effects are negative, in order to balance something else the subclass does well. Basically, if you pick the Wild Magic sorcerer, the deal is that you're choosing to have a powerful ability (Tides of Chaos) that has the downside of potentially causing something bad to happen later. It makes sense.

When all of the effects are good, but you never know which one you'll actually get... yeah, I find that an odd mechanic because it confounds all tactics, and I don't have interest in those subclasses. I only speak for myself though, I dunno how the man on the Forgotten Realms street feels about it.

I find that a terrible balance factor. It's punishing the player for doing what you said he could. If something is so powerful you feel the need to make the player suffer for doing it then tone it down or get rid of it and do something else. I don't care that it's published. It's still a terrible idea to me and shouldn't have been published. This is not new to D&D, and I despised all incarnations of it. The worst of it was in 2E where a Psionicist could instantly kill himself rolling the d20 to manifest his power. It wasn't all powers, just Disintegrate and Metamorphosis, but it was possible. Wild Sorcerer is just as guilty. A random Fireball on yourself at Ground Zero is not funny nor fun.

[sithlordnergal]

I find that a terrible balance factor. It's punishing the player for doing what you said he could. If something is so powerful you feel the need to make the player suffer for doing it then tone it down or get rid of it and do something else. I don't care that it's published. It's still a terrible idea to me and shouldn't have been published. This is not new to D&D, and I despised all incarnations of it. The worst of it was in 2E where a Psionicist could instantly kill himself rolling the d20 to manifest his power. It wasn't all powers, just Disintegrate and Metamorphosis, but it was possible. Wild Sorcerer is just as guilty. A random Fireball on yourself at Ground Zero is not funny nor fun.

I dunno...having a bit of proper risk associated with the randomness makes it more enjoyable. Sure, I could drop a fireball on myself and the party...but I could end up resisting all damage instead. It makes for a fun gamble.

Now, I will admit that it doesn't change much on how you play, so that is a downside. Randomness should be there to make you think on your feet or force you to rethink your current strategy. But there's nothing wrong with a simple Fireball blowing up at your feet. Heck, that actually makes it so you want to be up close and personal with whatever you're fighting because of the potential to get a free Fireball on them.

[neonchameleon]

Ehhh... some people like them. As long as it's restricted to subclasses I'm fine that they are there because the game shouldn't be all about what I want. In the alchemist's case in specific boldness, flight, and transformation are all really good value for first level spell slots. The thing is it's only the free potion that's random, the others are all great (if not anywhere near as great as what the other three subclasses get).

I've no objection to a little randomness in abilities as long as it's for other people and the subclasses they want even if I'm not going to use them.

[MrStabby]

I dunno...having a bit of proper risk associated with the randomness makes it more enjoyable. Sure, I could drop a fireball on myself and the party...but I could end up resisting all damage instead. It makes for a fun gamble.

Now, I will admit that it doesn't change much on how you play, so that is a downside. Randomness should be there to make you think on your feet or force you to rethink your current strategy. But there's nothing wrong with a simple Fireball blowing up at your feet. Heck, that actually makes it so you want to be up close and personal with whatever you're fighting because of the potential to get a free Fireball on them.

This doesnt work for me.

This makes the average outcome underpowered, or if the positives are enough to outweigh this, then you have an ability that will overshadow the rest of the party. Neither is ideal.

I also find negatives a bad impact on the game. Balance isn't just about power but about spotlight and impact on the story - both of which can come from negative things. Just as a wizard accidentally and carelessly conjuring a demon that the party needs to fight draws attention to the wizard, a fireball blowing up at your feet will draw attention to the wild mage.

Also I find it sucks to lose a character because of the actions of a teammate. There is a bad feeling to being stabbed in the back or blown up. Minimising the chances of this happening by accident seems good design to me.

[Warder]

I would never play one, but I think it's good that they exist. They're popular, especially among people who don't really care about power levels or balance (which is a stance I've come to agree with more and more, personally). My personal issue with them isn't actually anything to do with power levels, but the writing and flavor involved in so many of them, especially since each table is so narrow. Oh look! Flumphs appeared, cute I guess? Oh look, flumphs appeared for the fourth time, "cute" I guess...

[Aliess]

I'm really enjoying playing a spirit bard in Rise of Tiamat at the moment.
So far I have generally been able to use the spirit power about as often as I've used my other spells or dished out all my other inspiration dice.
It's been a lot of fun and a bit of a challenge for me trying to tie our current location to the roll in order to come up with a new story for the spirit we've come into contact with.
Is it optimal? No idea, but I've never felt like I'm falling behind the other characters.
Do I ever wish I'd rolled something else on the table? Not yet.

[Hytheter]

Also I find it sucks to lose a character because of the actions of a teammate. There is a bad feeling to being stabbed in the back or blown up. Minimising the chances of this happening by accident seems good design to me.

I think this is an important point. Random good results has its own set of potential problems, but at least they don't make you a liability. But the possibility of random bad results takes it to the next level. You might think its funny for your Sorcerer to blow himself up at 3rd level but your party is unlikely to feel the same way - even if they aren't caught in the blast themselves, one member of the team committing spontaneous suicide worsens the game state for everyone, potentially turning a win into a loss.

Spirits Bard is not to my liking but at least it won't make you a liability, and I am happy for the game to cater to people who want random abilities like this. Such features have a right to exist.

But anything that can potentially screw over the party is bad design and should not have been included. I don't care if you find it fun if it ruins the game for everyone else.

[kazaryu]

I've noticed a growing trend in a lot of WoTC's new content: randomized effects. The first one I noticed (beyond Wild Magic, who's popularity is likely the cause of the trend) was Alchemist Artificer: Rolling on a d6 table to find out what your free potion of the day does. Later, the Spirits Bard expends a valuable resource to get a random Effect they can bestow on an ally. Most recently, the whatsitsbucket Mischief spell from the Draconic Options UA, which fills a cube with a random Effect, some amazing, others kinda garbage.

I get that Wild Magic is fun and flavorful, but expending resources and/or having a core benefit of a class be randomized really really sucks. Not being able to plan or strategize what you're able and going to do makes the resource investment trashy. If a spirits Bard rolls for a story that gives advantage on Charisma checks in the middle of a dungeon crawl, you just wasted a Bardic Inspiration that could really have come in clutch as a combat boost. If your Alchemist accidentally makes a healing potion on a day focused on RP or exploration, it's more than likely a wasted resource.

All in all, not having reliable effects for resources sucks, and they need to stop making them.

so...to put it more simply. '**** everyone that likes these types of mechanics. if i don't like a mechanic, noone should be allowed to use it'? do i have that correct?

you don't give anything approaching an objective reason they're bad. but that they don't fit your particular play style.

[Glorthindel]

I think it works a lot better when at least some of the effects are negative, in order to balance something else the subclass does well. Basically, if you pick the Wild Magic sorcerer, the deal is that you're choosing to have a powerful ability (Tides of Chaos) that has the downside of potentially causing something bad to happen later. It makes sense.

When all of the effects are good, but you never know which one you'll actually get... yeah, I find that an odd mechanic because it confounds all tactics, and I don't have interest in those subclasses. I only speak for myself though, I dunno how the man on the Forgotten Realms street feels about it.

Best Wild Mage version I saw was in the first edition of Hackmaster - The class had a first level spell that allowed you to cast a "wild" version of any other spell in your spellbook (yes, regardless of level). However, you had to roll on the Wild Surge table, which really only had ~10% that the spell would actually happen, and otherwise mixed good/bad effects. The trade off for the random effects was the possibility of being able to fire off a high level spell using a level 1 slot (and bearing in mind this was in the "memorise" spell days, so had the other advantage you could fire off a spell you hadn't previously memorised).

[lordshadowisle]

Many dislike the lack of strategic planning with random effects, but I think this could be mitigated with pre-rolls like the College of Spirits. You may not be able to control what effects you command each day, but at least you can plan around it to your greatest advantage. Knowing you're going to explode in a fireball when you next surge incentivizes a very different playstyle! The only downside is that it almost entirely eliminates the effects of bad effect rolls (just trigger it at a safe time), but those were never very amusing for very long.

[MrStabby]

Many dislike the lack of strategic planning with random effects, but I think this could be mitigated with pre-rolls like the College of Spirits. You may not be able to control what effects you command each day, but at least you can plan around it to your greatest advantage.

I think you are right, it does mitigate poor design somewhat to have these choices. I think that there is some remaining downside though. A lot of the mechanical side has already been discussed. I think that there is the flavour side of these abilities to consider as well.

For me, I like my characters to be somewhat defined by what they can do. If I see my cleric as a healer, then I want to be able to take and cast healing spells. Things like anti-magic fields are more than just an obstacle to be overcome like a second dragon turning up in an encounter might be, but an impediment to my character being and doing what I want them to be. With random abilities it is pretty tough if some of the rolls are things I see my character doing and others not. That unless I get lucky my character cannot focus on the elements that I want to RP but insead may end up being really good at things that they have no interest in being good at.

[Catullus64]

If highly random effectiveness bothers you this much, you might be in the wrong game, partner. A wizard who casts Tasha's Hideous Laughter only to have the target make its saving throw has "wasted" that spell slot no less than the examples you criticize. The difference is in the framing of the features and the variability of the results.

To that latter point, there is some value to a randomized resource, and that value is failure. Failure, mishaps, slapstick, all of these are important parts of the game. And these sorts of features can generate interesting failures, more so than features where failure simply involves an attack roll or saving throw.

[MrStabby]

If highly random effectiveness bothers you this much, you might be in the wrong game, partner. A wizard who casts Tasha's Hideous Laughter only to have the target make its saving throw has "wasted" that spell slot no less than the examples you criticize. The difference is in the framing of the features and the variability of the results.

To that latter point, there is some value to a randomized resource, and that value is failure. Failure, mishaps, slapstick, all of these are important parts of the game. And these sorts of features can generate interesting failures, more so than features where failure simply involves an attack roll or saving throw.

This is different. I was talking about a character not being able to DO something envisaged. They cannot attempt it because RNG has decreed it so. This would be like not knowing if you could cast Tashas Hideous Laughter or not on any given day and an Enchantment wizard.

It isn't about success or failure, it about what actions you undertake. It is about what you can attempt to do reflecting the flavour of your character.

[whateew]

I think people are too harsh on the alchemist, I think the potions are fun and useful.

While the randomness of the first potion is, admittably, hard to use, being able to spend a 1st level spell slot for concentration free flight is a phenomenal ability, ignoring the flexibility of the rest. Need magical weapons? The alter self spell is a poormans magic weapon, costing only a first level spell without concentration. A low level monk would be very glad for that. You can get cure wounds level healing without spending prep slot, and the AC and speed boost, while not game changing, are always nice. Honestly, I think the free potion is just the cherry on top, I think by itself this feature is useful.

Some of the features do feel a bit poorly designed - it uses 2 seperately actions to make, then administer a potion, for example. Another issue is that the bonus to healing rolls doesn't apply by RAW to your potion despite using a spell slot, but it does to cure wounds. These are problems I think, and things I would waive as a DM. I also know many DMS accept bonus action drinking of potions, which I think would also be helpful in this case. Either way however, the randomness isn't the issue I think. In fact, I really like that you get a random thing that you can control when you use it. This "controlled randomness" is something I personally enjoy.

[KorvinStarmast]

Personally I share your distaste, but I wonder why your conclusion is "WotC needs to stop making them" and not "I refuse to play them."
Yeah.

These kinds of spells and abilities are cool in concept, but I have found that unless the player is someone who gets into mastery of their character, they can be a pain in the butt and can get quite fiddly at the table.

That Chromatic Orb spell: extra die rolls, maybe, fiddly.

Prismatic Spray: OK, I love all of the colors, but I now have to roll more dice and see who saved versus which color and which condition. If the DM and the Player both have a good degree of systems mastery, it works.
If not, it slows the turn down.

[Joe the Rat]

Best Wild Mage version I saw was in the first edition of Hackmaster - The class had a first level spell that allowed you to cast a "wild" version of any other spell in your spellbook (yes, regardless of level). However, you had to roll on the Wild Surge table, which really only had ~10% that the spell would actually happen, and otherwise mixed good/bad effects. The trade off for the random effects was the possibility of being able to fire off a high level spell using a level 1 slot (and bearing in mind this was in the "memorise" spell days, so had the other advantage you could fire off a spell you hadn't previously memorised).

Nystul's Reckless Dweomer, AD&D 2nd edition Tome of Magic, where Chaos magic started for D&D.

This one is actually an interesting case in discussion, as it was the spells themselves that carried most of the Chaos (or rather, Uncertainty), not the chassis. But that was the model of the era. You had a random d20 value (varying by level) that triggered a power bump, and you could tune the effects of Wonder items.

The spell There/Not There was a beautiful example of what it was like - cast upon objects / structures, each round it had a 50% chance of not existing for any specific creature. You could walk through a missing wall that was still real to everyone else, or dash across a bridge that was only there for half the observers. Blink for the environment, with observer-specific results.

The case here being that it is selective lolrandomness - you are taking a gamble on a boon. If WM sorcerer's had a direct boon for getting a surge (prior to / alongside Tides of Chaos), it would play on this angle.

---

Personally I have no issue with the random effects philosophy. A field of warping chaos when you rage, which you can retune. A surprising result to your overnight experimental concoctions which you can save and use when needed, or spend artifice mojo to generate a tried-and-true formula. Tapping into your preferred randomizer divination media to tell the tale of whatever spirit drives the turn of cards or roll of bones. fits the floof.

Of the lot, Spirit Bard needs a tuner. You can redo, but it's a larger investment. I'd suggested on the survey to have some sort of selection option - pick one below your roll result, for example. Doesn't sound like anything like that came through.

[Chronos]

A good random-roll effect is one where, no matter the roll, you can find ways to use it to your benefit, but you have to do different things to take advantage of different rolls. As an example, consider the diviner's portents: A high roll is good, because you can use that on an ally, and a low roll is good, because you can use that on an enemy. A middling roll isn't as good, but you can still use that in a situation (enemy or ally) where the most likely thing to happen is what you want to happen, but you really don't want the unlikely thing to happen.

[Pex]

I think this is an important point. Random good results has its own set of potential problems, but at least they don't make you a liability. But the possibility of random bad results takes it to the next level. You might think its funny for your Sorcerer to blow himself up at 3rd level but your party is unlikely to feel the same way - even if they aren't caught in the blast themselves, one member of the team committing spontaneous suicide worsens the game state for everyone, potentially turning a win into a loss.

Spirits Bard is not to my liking but at least it won't make you a liability, and I am happy for the game to cater to people who want random abilities like this. Such features have a right to exist.

But anything that can potentially screw over the party is bad design and should not have been included. I don't care if you find it fun if it ruins the game for everyone else.

Yes, exactly. I'm not as opposed to randomization as the OP, though I sympathize, but random negative affects brings the game down. It's similar to why critical failures are a bad idea, but unlike critical failures they don't even have the excuse of NPCs and monsters suffer it too because they don't have such randomization.


so...to put it more simply. '**** everyone that likes these types of mechanics. if i don't like a mechanic, noone should be allowed to use it'? do i have that correct?

you don't give anything approaching an objective reason they're bad. but that they don't fit your particular play style.

It's possible for a mechanic to be a bad game design even if it has its fans. Sometimes they don't get officially published, like the UA Psionic Die (I happened to like it). Sometimes it does get published. Perhaps not the randomization mechanic falls into this category, but I maintain randomization with the chance of You Die So Sorry So Sad is.

[Evaar]

Randomized effects can be designed such that they can be very tactically rewarding. In a game like D&D, with a broad array of situations from combat to social to exploration, it's more challenging than in a game like Hearthstone, where you're designing for a card game with the goal of getting the enemy to 0 health.

But in theory, it can be done. The benchmarks need to be: 1) All results have to be broadly applicable (for instance, if the randomized effect is likely to be used in the middle of combat, then you can't have one of the results be advantage on Investigation checks); 2) Results should be impactful enough that they are likely to cause a tactical reassessment

I'm not sure it's possible to design a randomized table with single effects that are ALWAYS applicable. Rearranging everyone's position like Scatter would be huge in combat and mostly just confusing in a social situation. So you either have to limit the scope of the ability so that it's focused on combat (or social/exploration but those are less tactically driven so... probably not very rewarding to design for), or wrap in a few possibly effects into a single result on the table such that you always have an applicable option. E.g. "Choose one of the following effects: you become aware of the nearest hidden door or trap within 1 mile; teleport yourself and the nearest 8 creatures 15 feet in a random horizontal direction; or automatically succeed on your next Deception check within the next minute." Each result applies to a different situation, the player can pick what they think they'll use and try to make the best of it. (Note that you'd probably want these to be more thematically consistent with each other, these are just off the top of my head.)

The problem with the second option is that you're going to end up with a really complicated looking table. "Roll to get one of 6 random sets, and then pick one effect from that set" is one step more complex than they seem to want to make things for 5e, so it's probably off the table. So if the scope of the ability is limited to combat, then it needs to be impactful enough that it feels like you did something - ideally, you force a tactical reassessment. That doesn't mean the battle is won or lost off the back of the effect; in fact, hopefully it's not. But it does mean everyone needs to take a moment to figure out what they're going to do next, because the plan just changed. Some players won't like that, some will. The reward is in being able to take maximum advantage of the new situation. If everyone is blinded with 120 feet, then suddenly advantage and disadvantage are non-issues, opportunity attacks are gone, and a lot of spells can no longer be used. Who's going to make the best use of that - Team Monster or the players? Figuring that out is where you can feel rewarded by these kinds of random effects. If you KNOW that everyone is about to be blinded within 120 feet of the Bard, then it's no longer about seizing the opportunity and more about planning ahead (you probably took Blind Fighting or whatever because you knew this would happen).

So in essence - I don't agree that random effect rolls necessarily suck. I do agree that a lot of the random effects currently in game DO suck, but I think that's because the tables aren't well designed. But to return to the Hearthstone example - for a while the game had a reputation of being too RNG based and wins being randomly determined, but as design was refined and players became more sophisticated, it became clear that RNG when applied well can raise the tactical skill ceiling rather than lower it.

[MrCharlie]

So the real problem comes down to investment, and synergy.

For the wild magic sorcerer, the investment is impossible steep. By itself wild magic would be great, but sorcerer needs a golden bullet in their archetype to keep up with the current power curve. If wild magic was printed with a loadout of spells, in addition to wild magic, it would be a fine archetype. This is assuming tides of chaos triggers wild magic regularly, though.

For the wild magic barbarian, almost all of their surges are synergistic with tanking. Some give retribution damage, some give difficult terrain, some give damage and blinded condition to an enemy, one just gives AC-only a select few don't help tanking in some way, and these generally help the Barbarian in some other, impactful, way. Plus, barbarian archetypes don't have quite as much work to do as sorcerer archetypes. There are good ones, but a base barbarian would be playable without an archetype-I know, I've had new players act as accidental test dummies.

The problem with wild magic Barbarian is that the effects needed to scale, potentially multiple times, to be remain relevant. But the fact that it does noticeably help the Barbarian do what they are already good at, or supplement a flaw with the class like mobility or ranged options, makes it a fine archetype. Plus, it can reliably trigger the ability and keep re-rolling the ability until it likes the result.

Then there is alchemist.

Oh boy is there alchemist.

Alchemist's problem is two fold.

First, all the potions suck. They just generally don't do enough at high level, and are only as strong as first level spells. Further, them being random is anti-synergy. The effect could be synergistic-Add 1d4 to saves, neat, let's stack that with bless-but you can't plan for that.

Second, you didn't get to be a better artificer. You're an alchemist instead. And the artificer archetypes other than alchemist are all amazing in some way-arty has better cantrips and great and reliable bonus actions (which the artificer lacks), the battle smith has a replacement for cantrips and has good bonus actions and puts another body on the field, and the armorer has tons of extra infusions, doubles down on AC and tanking, replaces cantrips, and did I mention it gets two extra infusions?

Alchemist, meanwhile, has an unreliable potion, ****ty damage/healing buff, and the ability to cast the restoration line of spells for free a few times. They lack reliable bonus actions, they lack cantrip buffs, they lack cantrip replacements, and their main feature is random.

And this, right here, is the generic problem.

First, even if an effect is good, and powerful, and synergistic with other effects-if it's random, you can't build for it. Wild magic barbarian is the only random class with a pseudo fix for this, and its fix is that every effect helps it do the same thing or close to the same thing, so it doesn't matter which it gets. Every other archetype with randomness is mildly to heavily screwed by this, and it's the main thing keeping random archetypes from being useful-without heavy theming of random features, you can't build around them.

Second, most of the random effects currently in print are overvalued for their opportunity cost. This is where I think spirit bard is-the problem with spirit bard is that to compete with lore or eloquence, it needed to be amazing. It's not amazing, so it's underpowered. Q.E.D. But even without that, the cost of using its main feature-an inspiration dice-is too damn high. Inspiration dice are amazing, the features in the spirit board are good, and generally equivalent to an inspiration dice....But only equivalent, and too action intensive.

I still like spirits, and not every archetype needs to be more powerful than those before it. In fact, the only fix I'd make is to let you get a use of Tales of the Beyond free when you gave out an inspiration dice, and make the activation of Tales of the Beyond either part of the same bonus action, or a bonus action on subsequent turns if you choose to save it.

Most generally, WOTC should be making the random effects more powerful than non-random effects if they want competitive parity between archetypes. It's just an open question if this is actually desirable or needed.

[Chronos]

Quoth Evaar:

Randomized effects can be designed such that they can be very tactically rewarding. In a game like D&D, with a broad array of situations from combat to social to exploration, it's more challenging than in a game like Hearthstone, where you're designing for a card game with the goal of getting the enemy to 0 health.
One simple solution is to make the random effects only come up in one aspect of the game (or have different ones come up in different aspects). Like, I'm not familiar with this wild magic barbarian others are talking about, but I'm guessing its randomness comes up when you rage. You're probably only raging in combat, so they can just give that nothing but effects that are relevant for combat.

[Evaar]

One simple solution is to make the random effects only come up in one aspect of the game (or have different ones come up in different aspects). Like, I'm not familiar with this wild magic barbarian others are talking about, but I'm guessing its randomness comes up when you rage. You're probably only raging in combat, so they can just give that nothing but effects that are relevant for combat.

Yup. That’s one of the options I laid out for how to design it in D&D. You either offer a suite of options for each result on the die and leave it to the player to pick the one they want, or you just design for one pillar (probably combat).

[Reach Weapon]

In a lot of ways, I think the big problem with wild magic is that it attacks one of the more common organizing principles of an adventuring party: competency. How could anyone risk life, limb and the fate of the entire tier appropriate region with someone so manifestly unreliable?

The sorts of intense chaos on a bunch of these charts only really make sense in down time or when things have gone so pear shaped that you're in the Hail Mary section of the playbook.

That said, the entire concept isn't trash, so much as wild magic, much like character motivations, needs to be subservient to the conceits of the game and the enjoyment of the group.

[Pex]

Grognard get off my lawn conjecturing.

I think way back when random You Die or You're The Suck options were popular or liked because the only/most people playing these games were the stereotypical teens and young adults. (Us grognards now.) Not meant to be insulting, but we were a bit immature. Critical failure house rules for the lulz were really funny to us. For even the older folks these randomizations were our Three Stooges and other Slapsticks. Looney Tunes and Tom & Jerry were still popular. Adults liked them too, but for game purposes we were kids and older kids. D&D was in its infancy.

As we got older we matured. The game matured. Adults are playing this game, those who grew up with it, the adult friends of those who grew up with it, and the game itself being culturally normalized non-geek adults becoming interested. Random bad effects for the lulz aren't funny anymore. I can't speak for today's kids, but I only play with other adults. I tell the few who weren't even born when I first started playing to stop reminding me how young they are. We enjoy the fun of playing and the out of game socializing, but "I attack" becoming "You take 30 damage instead" doesn't contribute to that enjoyment.

[Abracadangit]

I think part of the problem with the way it's implemented is that these wild abilities sit on classes that people were looking forward to, flavorwise. Like I can't tell you how many people I know wanted a rules-kosher way to play an alchemist without just refluffing a wizard's abilities, before it came out. Then it came out, and those people were like "Oh... it's got a random ability table. That's... neat. I guess." Same thing for the Spirits Bard. I get what they were going for, like drawing a card from a Tarot deck, but again, there were so many people that wanted to play a necromancy or seance-themed bard that didn't get what they wanted and were then bummed out accordingly.

You don't hear too many people disliking the Wild Magic Sorcerer, because it's baked into the the very theme. You're literally an agent of chaos - random, zany, occasionally Terry Pratchett-esque things are going to happen because that's what you are. And since it's advertised that way, more people are okay with it.

They should really just add a "gambler" type rogue subclass or something that fights with cards and dice and whatnot, and has a random table. Watch - people wouldn't hate it, because the flavor COMPLEMENTS the mechanics.

[Reach Weapon]

They should really just add a "gambler" type rogue subclass or something that fights with cards and dice and whatnot, and has a random table. Watch - people wouldn't hate it, because the flavor COMPLEMENTS the mechanics.

Yeah! That could be really cool, and I very much enjoy Wild Magic Antagonists.

It's just really, deeply and truly unfortunate how often any such practitioner in a party with me rolls "Reach Weapon murders you in your sleep".

[PhoenixPhyre]

Grognard get off my lawn conjecturing.

I think way back when random You Die or You're The Suck options were popular or liked because the only/most people playing these games were the stereotypical teens and young adults. (Us grognards now.) Not meant to be insulting, but we were a bit immature. Critical failure house rules for the lulz were really funny to us. For even the older folks these randomizations were our Three Stooges and other Slapsticks. Looney Tunes and Tom & Jerry were still popular. Adults liked them too, but for game purposes we were kids and older kids. D&D was in its infancy.

As we got older we matured. The game matured. Adults are playing this game, those who grew up with it, the adult friends of those who grew up with it, and the game itself being culturally normalized non-geek adults becoming interested. Random bad effects for the lulz aren't funny anymore. I can't speak for today's kids, but I only play with other adults. I tell the few who weren't even born when I first started playing to stop reminding me how young they are. We enjoy the fun of playing and the out of game socializing, but "I attack" becoming "You take 30 damage instead" doesn't contribute to that enjoyment.

As a note--

I've had two parties that really really liked random results.

In one, the player (a teenager) was playing a chaotic chaotic character. So when she got the chance to pick an item, it was a wand of wonder. And she acquired some mushrooms that had (self-targeted) versions of the same effect (basically causing a single roll on the table when consumed). And she was completely happy with that.

The other was an older group (only marginally) where the goblin bard sat on a particular chair, designed to force the ascension of a dwarf to demigod-hood. Note: The chair was not a success in its initial design, nor was it in good shape centuries later when they found it. He survived, and even gained some powers from it. One of those was as follows:

When a target rolls a natural 1 on a saving throw against one of your spells, they must roll on the Wand of Wonder table, treating themselves as the target of the effect.

This only came up a handful of times, but those included
1) in a (theoretically non-lethal, but...) arena fight, they were down to one enemy left. He cast vicious mockery, and the guy nat 1'd. The WoW effect? Fireball. Scorched the rest of the party, but basically he was insulted so hard his head exploded. Literally, since the damage was enough to kill him.
2) Cast something on a manticore and got the "Gust of Wind" effect. Added some tactical maneuvering to the fight.
3) Another time he got the "cloud of butterflies" effect.

The whole party was highly amused. They weren't exactly the most mature folks (despite being theoretically adults, and the bard was the oldest of them).

So, long story short, I think there's something to your thesis here.

[MrStabby]

I think part of the problem with the way it's implemented is that these wild abilities sit on classes that people were looking forward to, flavorwise. Like I can't tell you how many people I know wanted a rules-kosher way to play an alchemist without just refluffing a wizard's abilities, before it came out. Then it came out, and those people were like "Oh... it's got a random ability table. That's... neat. I guess." Same thing for the Spirits Bard. I get what they were going for, like drawing a card from a Tarot deck, but again, there were so many people that wanted to play a necromancy or seance-themed bard that didn't get what they wanted and were then bummed out accordingly.

You don't hear too many people disliking the Wild Magic Sorcerer, because it's baked into the the very theme. You're literally an agent of chaos - random, zany, occasionally Terry Pratchett-esque things are going to happen because that's what you are. And since it's advertised that way, more people are okay with it.

They should really just add a "gambler" type rogue subclass or something that fights with cards and dice and whatnot, and has a random table. Watch - people wouldn't hate it, because the flavor COMPLEMENTS the mechanics.

I think there is some truth to this. There is a lot less resistance to wild magic sorcerer and wild magic barbarian - and it does match your hypothesis. If people feel that it is not taking away the opportunity for a class that is more reliable.

[sithlordnergal]

Grognard get off my lawn conjecturing.

I think way back when random You Die or You're The Suck options were popular or liked because the only/most people playing these games were the stereotypical teens and young adults. (Us grognards now.) Not meant to be insulting, but we were a bit immature. Critical failure house rules for the lulz were really funny to us. For even the older folks these randomizations were our Three Stooges and other Slapsticks. Looney Tunes and Tom & Jerry were still popular. Adults liked them too, but for game purposes we were kids and older kids. D&D was in its infancy.


Ahhh, I remember the crit fail house rules. If I could get away with it, I'd implement them again because it was nice to have something to counterbalance the nat 20 crits. Sure you might lose a weapon, but that was a part of the risk. Sadly, my table would rebel against me if I did a thing like that. I can also remember the random chance to accidentally hit a team mate when firing into melee...that wasn't quite as fun though.

[sithlordnergal]

Yeah! That could be really cool, and I very much enjoy Wild Magic Antagonists.

It's just really, deeply and truly unfortunate how often any such practitioner in a party with me rolls "Reach Weapon murders you in your sleep".

See, that's when you double down with the random stuff. You keep bringing in the wild magic sorcerer, find yourself a Wand of Wonder...then make sure to be riiight next to whoever murdered you whenever you cast a spell so they have a good chance of being caught in the wild magic effects.

EDIT: Or you find a Deck of Many Things or a modified Deck of Many Things and trick said player to draw a number of cards...or just draw them yourself

[AHF]

Spirit Bard seems like it isn’t the best example of “I can’t do any strategy because of randomness.” That complaint seems to apply most powerfully when you try to trigger something right now and the result is random ala the wand of wonder. Spirit Bard has entirely predictable inspiration, skills and spells. They have one ability that is random but you can identify it immediately following a rest and then strategically choose when to deploy it any time until you have completed your next rest. That doesn’t really hurt my head very much. It seems akin to getting an ability to prepare one non-Bard spell after every rest but you randomly roll for what the spell is after the rest. That doesn’t invalidate your ability to strategically use the tale once known.

[Rukelnikov]

I'll be honest, I'm the complete opposite of you. I kind of hope they make more things like that, as I enjoy the randomness of it all. You can still strategize around random effects, and I actually feel that the random effects make for a fun strategic challenge. If you don't get exactly what you want then you need to find a way to use it.

[...]

I can see why some people would dislike it, but you shouldn't knock the random stuff without fully trying it. It can really make things more interesting and fun, and can potentially make a boring encounter more entertaining/interesting. The important thing is that you need to have a way to play around the random effects and take them into consideration. If you can't really figure out how the randomness works, or work around it in some way, then it becomes a lot less fun.

This.

I actually preffer not knowing what will be at my disposal so that the challenge becomes more interesting, same reason why lately I like deckbuilders more than traditional rpgs, making do with what I have at hand is more interesting to me, than following a decision flowchart that I can make before starting the adventure.

[MrStabby]

Spirit Bard seems like it isn’t the best example of “I can’t do any strategy because of randomness.” That complaint seems to apply most powerfully when you try to trigger something right now and the result is random ala the wand of wonder. Spirit Bard has entirely predictable inspiration, skills and spells. They have one ability that is random but you can identify it immediately following a rest and then strategically choose when to deploy it any time until you have completed your next rest. That doesn’t really hurt my head very much. It seems akin to getting an ability to prepare one non-Bard spell after every rest but you randomly roll for what the spell is after the rest. That doesn’t invalidate your ability to strategically use the tale once known.

I think the issue with Spirit Bard is that this is their main, unique ability. Their level 6 ability is a minor buff to casting and giving them spells that other classes could pick up sooner. Level 14 is also tied to their inspiration ability.

It isn't like this is just one ability amongst many in the subclass. It is the core, defining ability and you don't get to decide how to use it, a die does so instead. If it were a secondary ability of the subclass and if the major element was non random then it might be better recieved. The issue isn't just that you have a random ability, the issue is that it is the ability that sets you appart from other characters.

And it isn't just the strategy, but also the role play. If you were to play a battlemaster and saw them as a leader then you might want as your maneuvres Commanding Presence, Commanders Shout, Rally and Later Tactial assessment. If they were to roll at random, even at the start o the day, then basically they couldn't play the character they want to. So it is with Spirit bard - there are some cool things you might want to do that really represent the role you want your character to play. You cannot play tht character unless you roll what you want to roll.

[Cheesegear]

I would enjoy random effects more, if I didn't feel like I was being actively punished for something that wasn't even my fault.

If I miss an attack...I miss. Even a critical miss, is just a miss. Nothing happens.

Every time I cast a levelled spell, I have to roll a d20...That's not so bad. It slows down my turn, but fine. Oops, I rolled a '1'.

- I can't speak for the next minute (10 rounds). I can't use spells with V components...Cool. Not being able to cast spells for 10 Rounds as a Sorcerer makes me useless, and makes the fight more difficult for my party members.
- I pot plant myself.
- I'm Frightened by my friend. Oh great.
- I've Poisoned the Fighter. Good one.
- I sheep myself.
- My friends within 30 ft gain Vulnerability to piercing damage. Our Fighter has a Longsword. The hostiles have Bows and are further than 30 ft. away.

Every now and then, you are punished for playing your class. Not just 'The hostile passes its saving throw...' but '...and you're a sheep!'

If it was just me playing, fine. There are some good options on that Wild Magic table that I'd really like to have.

But, in a cooperative game?
- You are an integral part of the game, the party relies on you being relatively active in any challenge where you can contribute - it's extremely rare that a DM will design an encounter where a player can just 'sit out' and the party will be fine.
- The party doesn't need to be stabbed in the back. On purpose is bad. But accidentally Fireball-ing your entire party, or dealing Necrotic damage to everyone, or creating an unexpected Fog Cloud for no reason? That's unplayable, especially when you're not even in combat and casting utility spells - including from scrolls.

Like I said, a Fighter rolls a '1' on his attack roll. Nothing happens, and he certainly isn't punished for it.


Randomness is really, really 'fun', so long as the people you're playing with don't rely on you to do anything useful at all. No expectations, no disappointments.

[Witty Username]

I think it would be fine if those effects trended more powerful. My impression on what random effects we have, their unpredictability is factored in, making for weak and situational effects.
What I saw of spirit bard was about right to what I think random effects should be capable of.

[KorvinStarmast]

I tell the few who weren't even born when I first started playing to stop reminding me how young they are. Before or after they get off of the lawn. Good post, we certainly had some fun with the LOLfails tables but it did not take too long for that 'fun' to wear out its welcome.

I can also remember the random chance to accidentally hit a team mate when firing into melee...that wasn't quite as fun though. But it was occasionally funny. Depended on the group.

Randomness is really, really 'fun', so long as the people you're playing with don't rely on you to do anything useful at all. No expectations, no disappointments. RNGeezus is a funny deity. I was trying to grab ahold of a flying construct a few sessions ago with Bigby's Hand and missed three times in a row. On the fourth time I punched it ... but my party had to carry me since I was not useful at all for three combat rounds. Nothing to do with random fails beyond the d20 being fickle.

[MrStabby]

RNGeezus is a funny deity. I was trying to grab ahold of a flying construct a few sessions ago with Bigby's Hand and missed three times in a row. On the fourth time I punched it ... but my party had to carry me since I was not useful at all for three combat rounds. Nothing to do with random fails beyond the d20 being fickle.

This is the kind of thing I don't mind so much. At least you were able to act how you wanted your character to act. You didn't have the roll of a die say you couldn't even attempt to use the abilities you made the character to use.

[Cheesegear]

I was trying to grab ahold of a flying construct a few sessions ago with Bigby's Hand and missed three times in a row. On the fourth time I punched it ... but my party had to carry me since I was not useful at all for three combat rounds. Nothing to do with random fails beyond the d20 being fickle.

...That's just the regular kind of annoying.

As I said; Failure is not a problem. Failure is part of the game. Failure should be part of the game. Where failure becomes a problem, is when you're punished for it, and it's not your fault, per se (e.g; dice are random), and the punishment is disproportionate to the action. Such as when people make frittata'd critical miss tables that are not part of the game and never should be.

A Fighter misses their attack...and misses, that's it.
A Wild Sorcerer fails their spell...And then also pot plants themselves for the rest of the combat. Disabling themselves, and making the entire challenge harder for the rest of the party.

It's not the same thing.

[kazaryu]

It's possible for a mechanic to be a bad game design even if it has its fans. Sometimes they don't get officially published, like the UA Psionic Die (I happened to like it). Sometimes it does get published. Perhaps not the randomization mechanic falls into this category, but I maintain randomization with the chance of You Die So Sorry So Sad is.

oh for sure, you could make an argument that its bad design. OP didn't. OP's entire argument was 'i don't like using this sub-class because i can't plan around its abilities. Also, this subclass sort of matches an archetype i wanted to play (necromancer bard) but im salty because the subclass has random abilities as part of its design'.

and thats what i was responding to.