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View Full Version : The MDJ - would any DM be so cruel?



Grynning
2007-11-14, 04:22 AM
So, my DM and I got to talking about Mordenkainen's/Mage's Disjunction a while ago, and we determined that it would just be far too mean for a DM to ever hit a player with it, since it would destroy pretty much all of their nifty magical gear and make any high level character cry like a little girl while the BBEG killed them. Given the existence of this spell, how do you handle it in a game? If the players have access to it, it stands to reason that NPC's would as well, so why don't bad guys use it on the often glowing with magic PC's? Is this just something most DM's sweep under the carpet and ignore, or has anyone ever actually used it on a player?

Quietus
2007-11-14, 04:31 AM
So, my DM and I got to talking about Mordenkainen's/Mage's Disjunction a while ago, and we determined that it would just be far too mean for a DM to ever hit a player with it, since it would destroy pretty much all of their nifty magical gear and make any high level character cry like a little girl while the BBEG killed them. Given the existence of this spell, how do you handle it in a game? If the players have access to it, it stands to reason that NPC's would as well, so why don't bad guys use it on the often glowing with magic PC's? Is this just something most DM's sweep under the carpet and ignore, or has anyone ever actually used it on a player?

Well, it might be because villains are really just PC's run by the DM, and by not nuking your gear, they can hope to get it themselves.

That said, I have a DM who's been using it regularly against one group I'm in, for the last fight. Well.. "last fight", being a relative term. We're fighting Tiamat, and she dislikes the way my cleric/psion of Wee Jas buffs himself out the wazoo, so she's been using her five standard actions to hit us with DJ's all the bloody time. Thankfully I'm level 30, with four Multispells and auto-quicken through 9th. I've been able to keep up with countering, but it's like hemorrhaging power points (I was originally cleric/wizard, but due to various things, wizard became psion, and since we're Epic, the DM lets us get away with things like me triggering the spells that remain prepared by using power points).

He's already made it clear to me that Tiamat hasn't pulled out her big guns; this, given that only one of our party of three has any gear remaining, is thoroughly worrisome. Thankfully I've still got a few tricks (fission, primarily) up my sleeve, too - I'm the team mana battery for this fight, which is good, because we've been in dire need of one.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-14, 04:33 AM
In my last campaign (which ended at level 24, using non-ELH rules), the BBEG's minions were throwing MDJ around alot by the end of the game. It was the typical combat opener for the officer of an enemy group. It was not more than the PCs could handle. Just keep in mind the kind of crack that can be achieved by
17th level (when MDJ becomes available). If they can't handle anything you throw at them, its their fault.

My party even had a homebrew spellcaster that lost spell access when hit with MDJ (because he physically stored spell patterns in his body to cast spells).

ZeroNumerous
2007-11-14, 04:38 AM
As a joke, I had a wizard cast MDJ on the party.

They were level 2. They didn't have a single magic item on them. :smallbiggrin:

turkishproverb
2007-11-14, 04:41 AM
As a joke, I had a wizard cast MDJ on the party.

They were level 2. They didn't have a single magic item on them. :smallbiggrin:

Love it.


I was runnign a campain where an artifact was needed to save the world. One of my players thried disjoining a Lich's Pcthyary in the same area is it.


Rolled.

No way to save the world, suddenly.

Grynning
2007-11-14, 04:43 AM
Did your items just all keep passing their will saves? Because remember, DJ permanently makes any items that fail their saves non-magical. That seems like it could spell disaster for many characters, especially if your ability-boosting gear got nuked (I think we figured out that my fighter would have to drop half of his stuff if he lost his Strength buffing items in our epic game). Not to mention that you're losing tons of money on all those busted items, unless your DM is giving you plenty of awesome replacements.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-14, 05:02 AM
The strategy they eventually worked out was:

The gish had a special ability that allowed him to effectively grant a spell to each party member. He chose Celerity as his granted spell.

The wizard would throw out a quickened spell each round, and then ready an action to counterspell.

The fighter-types would rush in and slaughter everything.

The party also managed to acquire a ring of spell battle that worked on 9th level spells, so if the gish got in close, he could shut down any spell 5/day.

So the typical formation was fighter in melee with enemy fighters, and casters chucking spells at each other from behind the lines. They couldn't often DJ the fighters, because they would be hitting their own troops (the halfling fighter's intitiative was ungodly high).

EDIt- There was also an AE giant with a 30' reach and that feat that prevents spellcasters from casting defensively.

Xuincherguixe
2007-11-14, 05:43 AM
It's fair, if they'd be allowed to get new equipment. And I don't mean pay for it. The power of plot suddenly drops all kinds of useful stuff in front of the characters sort of thing.

And one shouldn't have any particular high encounters for the party until they get good stuff back.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-14, 05:49 AM
It's fair, if they'd be allowed to get new equipment. And I don't mean pay for it. The power of plot suddenly drops all kinds of useful stuff in front of the characters sort of thing.

And one shouldn't have any particular high encounters for the party until they get good stuff back.

My PCs managed to handle 2-3 MDJ's a day by the end. That's not counting the ones that were countered or shut down with the ring of spell battle. They did get to loot a level 20 character and 6-8 level 15 characters afterwards, however, so maybe that evened things out a bit.

Premier
2007-11-14, 06:14 AM
MDJ is one of many excellent tools that teach the players to look for solutions other than combat.

"Sure, you offed the great Archmage Hitlerius, but it cost you all your precious magical gear. Next time you face someone like him, maybe you could try to forge an alliance between all threatened kingdoms and have THEM kill him and lose magical items in the process. Or do some intelligence gathering and figure out a way of beating whim without a big flashy BBEG fight. Or just hook him up with a nice girl so he mellows down and ceases being such a threat."

If there's a big fight, then it's almost always there because the players wanted it. And if they wanted it, they shouldn't be whining about how they lost HP, potions, scrolls or magical swords and armour. Combat has its price, be a big boy and suck it up.

Grynning
2007-11-14, 06:28 AM
MDJ is one of many excellent tools that teach the players to look for solutions other than combat.

....

If there's a big fight, then it's almost always there because the players wanted it. And if they wanted it, they shouldn't be whining about how they lost HP, potions, scrolls or magical swords and armour. Combat has its price, be a big boy and suck it up.

I believe it's part of the DM's responsibility to give players what they want, and most D&D players do enjoy the fights (and most DM's too). Why would you bother statting out a BBEG if you didn't want your players to fight him?
It seems like you're implying that you should punish players for the classic direct problem solving of most adventurers. Hell, this game is mostly about combat, that's what 90% of the spells, items and abilities are useful for.

Quietus
2007-11-14, 06:32 AM
Did your items just all keep passing their will saves? Because remember, DJ permanently makes any items that fail their saves non-magical. That seems like it could spell disaster for many characters, especially if your ability-boosting gear got nuked (I think we figured out that my fighter would have to drop half of his stuff if he lost his Strength buffing items in our epic game). Not to mention that you're losing tons of money on all those busted items, unless your DM is giving you plenty of awesome replacements.

Nope. When I say we have no gear, I mean *no gear*. I personally kept passing my saves for the few DJ's Tiamat got through. The party druid? Not so lucky. First DJ that I didn't have the spells to counter nuked everything, he couldn't make the save. Eventually Tiamat got pissed enough at us that she managed to smack down myself and the druid, picked up our lifeless bodies, and carried them away. DJ my corpse, items can't pass the save, and proceed to destroy every last shred of gear we owned. Thankfully my DM agreed that someone who casts as an Epic-level anything IS their own damned divine focus.

So we're fighting Tiamat, naked, except for the party rogue (who is kind of the DM's favored character out of us, it seems, sometimes - though that could just be perception and that the rogue's spent a lot of resources building contacts), whose epic-level items were considered "artifacts", and thus immune to DJ - one of many DM rulings in this game. Unfortunately, the druid isn't a powergamer, and I came into the game late knowing full well what to expect, so not only is the rogue overshadowing him, but so am I. I'd tone it down, but the minute I stop doing my thing, we lose.

deadseashoals
2007-11-14, 06:37 AM
They get a save on each item... I really don't see what the big deal is. Just make sure that if all their gear breaks, you make it up to them eventually. Though they may have to suffer for a bit.

Grynning
2007-11-14, 06:40 AM
This discussion seems to be proving my point - a DM hosing a party with DJ's would appear to be being unnecessarily cruel. An epic party fighting Tiamat without any magic items might as well be Epic commoners (ok, except for maybe the Druid, as you point out). Especially the melee'ers, since I'm sure she has Epic DR, which they would have no way to bypass without gear. There's a reason for WBL rules.

Edit: Deadseashoals: I can see how it could be used once on a party and they may lose a few items, that they can replace from the loot they get. But it still seems to be a bit over the top to me.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-14, 06:43 AM
@Quietus

So Tiamat killed you all, destroyed all of your gear, and you are still fighting her somehow? Did you get ressed and go back? Did Tiamat ress you so she could beat you up again? What's the deal?

@grynnus

Most of the games I wind up playing in fall woefully short of WBL guidelines. We get by fine. I reiterate, if a level 17+ party can't find a way to deal with a problem, with all the resources they should have developed by then, then it is their own fault.

for one thing, the wizard could have a contingency against MDJ. That is just one of many things a level 17+ party could do to prepare against MDJ.

DruchiiConversion
2007-11-14, 07:20 AM
I threw MDJs at my party when I was running a high-level game, as well as demonic paladins, ninja giga-robots, goblin saboteurs, gods, and kobolds. The last one was the only thing they struggled with and complained about.

Wasn't such a big deal. They just kept defenses up, and opened with an early blitz against casters.

Saph
2007-11-14, 08:35 AM
It's an anti-PC nuke, basically. As a DM, you use it if you specifically want to hurt the PCs, but not otherwise.

Using it against a standard mixed party is a terrible idea, because:

1) Disjunction requires a will save for every piece of gear.
2) Casters all have high will saves. Meleers tend to have low will saves. Meleers are also much more dependent on magical items than casters.
3) At the levels you'll be running into Disjunctions (level 15+) the meleers are already hopelessly outclassed and falling further and further behind with every level.

So by Disjunctioning the party, you're crippling the characters that are already the weakest, while affecting least the characters that are the strongest.

Now if you've got a high-level powergamer party where everyone's twinked their characters up the wazzoo, it becomes an option. But with the standard D&D group that has a mixture of newbies and veterans . . . no. Bad idea.

Besides, from the enemy spellcaster's perspective, it doesn't make much sense. If he Disjunctions the party, he destroys millions of GPs worth of stuff; if he beats them without Disjunctioning them, he gets all that lovely treasure for himself. So it makes sense that an enemy isn't going to use a Disjunction unless a) he has good reason to believe that he'll lose the battle otherwise or b) he doesn't care about money.

- Saph

Starbuck_II
2007-11-14, 09:23 AM
So we're fighting Tiamat, naked, except for the party rogue (who is kind of the DM's favored character out of us, it seems, sometimes - though that could just be perception and that the rogue's spent a lot of resources building contacts), whose epic-level items were considered "artifacts", and thus immune to DJ - one of many DM rulings in this game. Unfortunately, the druid isn't a powergamer, and I came into the game late knowing full well what to expect, so not only is the rogue overshadowing him, but so am I. I'd tone it down, but the minute I stop doing my thing, we lose.

If the DM didn't huserule: has a great chance she,Tiamat, lost all her spellcasting. Look up Disjunction:
1% per caster chance of disjioining artifacts. DC 25 Will save or forever lost spellcasting.. Yes, Tiamat by the rules has a great chance ogf both disjoining the artifact and tisk losing her spellcasting.
She can roll 1 so she has a chance.
Multiple artifacts makes it even more likely she loses it.

Krrth
2007-11-14, 09:34 AM
I'm not sure Tiamat CAN lose spellcasting abilities. Depending on the version you are using, she's a deity. Which means she SHOULD be kicking the living bejeesus out of any non-divine foe.

gaymer_seattle
2007-11-14, 02:15 PM
personally i think that any player who doesn't like the DM using a spell from the PBH in an appropriate leveled encounter is just whining.

"Oh boo hoo, my character 17th level whatever, lost his +something magical thingy-ma-jig"

D&D is not about giving a player every cool thing s/he wants. it's a theoretical environment where you get to make decisions and reap the results of a bunch of "what-if" circumstances. those what-if circumstances are deliberately challenging without foregone conclusions so that there is a sensation of uncertainty. this creates a level of believability. after all, how many things in real life are guaranteed? if you want to be certain that you are always going to win, play checkers with yourself.

throwing a disjunction at a party of 5th level PCs who have just managed to secure their first set of magical items right as the encounter their BBEG that can only be defeated by magical items is not fair. it does border on cruel.

however, choosing to engage in a battle with an enemy you know has the potential to use that ability, and not preparing for it is stupidity on the players part, not cruelty on the DMs

Starbuck_II
2007-11-14, 02:44 PM
throwing a disjunction at a party of 5th level PCs who have just managed to secure their first set of magical items right as the encounter their BBEG that can only be defeated by magical items is not fair. it does border on cruel.

however, choosing to engage in a battle with an enemy you know has the potential to use that ability, and not preparing for it is stupidity on the players part, not cruelty on the DMs

I'd rather be disjoinef at level 5 than level 20: you know much wealth was lost if it happens in comparison?
Dear Bob, you could have bought a whole kingdom with wealth lost.

Indon
2007-11-14, 03:19 PM
Besides, from the enemy spellcaster's perspective, it doesn't make much sense. If he Disjunctions the party, he destroys millions of GPs worth of stuff; if he beats them without Disjunctioning them, he gets all that lovely treasure for himself. So it makes sense that an enemy isn't going to use a Disjunction unless a) he has good reason to believe that he'll lose the battle otherwise or b) he doesn't care about money.


Ooh!

A high-level Sorceror with Vow of Poverty who has further sworn that all wealth is evil and should be destroyed.

Fanatic Good encounter FTLoss of immense magical items.

gaymer_seattle
2007-11-14, 03:59 PM
I'd rather be disjoinef at level 5 than level 20: you know much wealth was lost if it happens in comparison?
Dear Bob, you could have bought a whole kingdom with wealth lost.


the important part isn't the level. It's the party's ability to defend against such an attack. 20th level isn't about all the toys. it's about the experience of knowing how to deal with what's out there

Alex12
2007-11-14, 04:07 PM
My DM did that once. We had about 30 antimatter grenades between the 4 of us. These were our earlier AM grenades, which only used magic to contain the AM, no EM fields. That particular blast destroyed us, the caster, and pretty much the rest of the continent. We did a "reload"

Emperor Tippy
2007-11-14, 04:16 PM
I use it on my players all the time. Once they reach 15th level it becomes fair game.

Granted, I make it easy to get magical items in my games (at least at levels 15+). The PC's just greater plane shift to Union or Sigil and buy whatever they want.

I keep the players at the correct WBL while still being able to reward them with practically whatever I want. And when the players realize that items come and go very easily they become a lot more innovative.

My players have also learned to keep a few minor artifacts on them. A level 20 caster has a 20% chance of destroying an artifact. Keep 5 minor artifacts in the party and, on average, 1 will be destroyed per disjunction. The party wizard uses Celerity to cast Limited Wish and have the enemy wizard take a -7 penalty on his next save. Enemy wizard then has to make a DC 25 will save or permanently loose all casting ability.

My party defeated the head of a mages guild in 1 round using that trick.

But the real fun is that even if the wizard makes his save there is a 95% chance that he pissed off some powerful being.

Prometheus
2007-11-14, 04:42 PM
I would use it, but only under the condition of giving the characters forewarning. My players would examine it from a strategical perspective and work around it either:
a) Craft the fight so the spell doesn't get a chance to get used
b) Craft the fight so that in this one fight they aren't using their best magic items (potions/spells of ability enhancement rather than the items for example_
c) Avoid the fight when there are more reasonable alternatives.

Quietus
2007-11-14, 04:43 PM
This discussion seems to be proving my point - a DM hosing a party with DJ's would appear to be being unnecessarily cruel. An epic party fighting Tiamat without any magic items might as well be Epic commoners (ok, except for maybe the Druid, as you point out). Especially the melee'ers, since I'm sure she has Epic DR, which they would have no way to bypass without gear. There's a reason for WBL rules.

The rogue I mentioned still has his +20 short sword. The druid had a +20 scimitar and I had a +20 dagger, but those were both nuked and destroyed in Tiamat's "rape those two" move.


@Quietus

So Tiamat killed you all, destroyed all of your gear, and you are still fighting her somehow? Did you get ressed and go back? Did Tiamat ress you so she could beat you up again? What's the deal?

One of the houserules that the DM has put in is that when a character reaches level 20, and every 10 levels after that, they get a unique ability. The druid has the ability to turn into paraelementals, the rogue has a "quicken teleport + full attack for sneak attack" thing, and I've got a temporary lich form (will be replaced once I have time to become a full blown lich), and as my 30th level ability I can quicken any spell that my Auto-quicken feats cover. I also have Ignore Material Components, so if I had them prepared, I could fire off up to 6 True Ressurections in a round.

The rogue, on top of being level 26, and having at least a dozen artifacts, also has a level 45 cleric in his head (who can alternatively become a hellfire wyrm if he chooses to). This cleric appears to have my auto-quicken ability. Oh, and he's also Merged with a dragon turtle so he's packing over 1,000 HP. And has a phoenix backing him up with regular Heal spells. Did I mention that this rogue seems to be the DM's favorite?

So yes; We were ressed, and kept going. We don't have much choice. We're inside of a giant tree that has 30 separate levels of increasing-CR epic monsters. If we can reach the top, one of us (presumably the druid) can become the Paraelemental Prince of Nature, whatever that means - all I know is that it apparently will swing the balance of the fight back in our favor.



As for the whole "Tiamat should have lost her spellcasting abilities" bit... yeah. The DM isn't using the statted version of Tiamat. As best as we can figure, he's taken a great wyrm of each of the five chromatics, added all their stats together, given it all the feats he feels like giving, and threw ten divine ranks on top. I don't think he has the actual stats anywhere, since we aren't *supposed* to be able to defeat her. Hell, we can't even touch her as long as she has her divine abilities up; We've been solving that problem by using Miracles to beg our respective deities (Wee Jas, Hextor, and Obad-Hai; We're halfway through Hextor right now) to shut down Tiamat's divine abilities. The DM is giving us one round per DR that that particular deity has, and then giving Tiamat what amounts to a snowballing check against our caster levels in order to break the effect afterward.

Indon
2007-11-14, 04:54 PM
As for the whole "Tiamat should have lost her spellcasting abilities" bit... yeah. The DM isn't using the statted version of Tiamat. As best as we can figure, he's taken a great wyrm of each of the five chromatics, added all their stats together, given it all the feats he feels like giving, and threw ten divine ranks on top. I don't think he has the actual stats anywhere, since we aren't *supposed* to be able to defeat her. Hell, we can't even touch her as long as she has her divine abilities up; We've been solving that problem by using Miracles to beg our respective deities (Wee Jas, Hextor, and Obad-Hai; We're halfway through Hextor right now) to shut down Tiamat's divine abilities. The DM is giving us one round per DR that that particular deity has, and then giving Tiamat what amounts to a snowballing check against our caster levels in order to break the effect afterward.

So it's just a matter of time until Tiamat gains Alter Reality and wins. Hmm. That is a tricky one.

Quietus
2007-11-14, 05:30 PM
So it's just a matter of time until Tiamat gains Alter Reality and wins. Hmm. That is a tricky one.

Aye. She has it, actually, she just doesn't have access to it right now. The one time I managed to get fully buffed (I was at comparable hit points, saves, and all that to the rogue), she had regained her deific abilities and we weren't aware. She hit me with Awesome Blow; fort save of around 800 or die. That hurt like hell.

To top it all off, we're fighting things that are at or above the party level at this point, WHILE dealing with Tiamat. As we climb each level of this tree, we fight an Epic monster (We last left off in front of a... Xixical? The giant mountain of ice elemental thing.), and when it dies, a portal appears that teleports us to the next level. Tiamat is following us and sitting on top of the portal so we can't use it.

So essentially, not only do we have less than two minutes to defeat another 10 epic monsters before we run out of "Make Tiamat Stop" juice, but we also have to find 10 more ways to move her off of the teleport zone. The DM is easily amused, however, and I'm fairly certain that if I use Shapeshift to turn into a mac truck and bull rush her, shouting, "Roll out!", he'll give me an auto-win on that roll out of amusement. We also may be able to Animate the tree we're in, making it a colossal++ plant object that's on our side. The party druid will have to pass a DC 138 or so will save to do it, however - but then again, I've burnt much more experience for much less effect. We've already churned our way through 20 epic fights in about as many rounds, and I've been forced to use Reality Revision (Psionic Wish) to refresh us as though we'd had a day of rest many times.

Funkyodor
2007-11-14, 05:50 PM
My question is that since when did casting Disjunction require it to be targeted at "The Party"? It has a fairly decent AoE and 'Meh' range so can be selectively used on people the BBEG considers threats. The Large self buffed cleirc or Grizzly Bear Druid turns back into normal cleric/druid. Why disjunction the fighters on the ground, when the Wizards in the air are better targets. They have the better chance to not have items destroied, but all spell effects, and contingencies are removed, and it is not a targeted ability so, Yay.

The_Werebear
2007-11-14, 05:56 PM
In my group, just about every broken spell is a nuclear weapon that we are sitting on. No one wants to fire the first one, because if they do, it becomes fair game. So far, I have had players using Wishes and Miracles, and had one guy break out Shapechange. Time Stop is common as well. But no one has wanted to touch Disjunction. It is there, I haven't banned it, but no one feels like risking all their shiny, shiny gear (not to mention loosing the enemy's stuff) by bringing it out.

Celerity and Contingency are others that no one messes around with.

So yes, but only if the players started it.

Tokiko Mima
2007-11-14, 06:50 PM
Couldn't you use a Wish spell to undo a Disjunction? I mean, it's described as undong the harmful effects of other spells without an easy cure, and one of it's functions is 'Undo Misfortune' which I would think clearly describes the effect of having all your expensive equipment turned to slag.

Lochar
2007-11-14, 06:52 PM
Problem with that is the DM could rule that instead of undoing the effect of the spell, it instead creates all new magical items.

How much XP did you just burn?

Krrth
2007-11-14, 06:55 PM
Just burning XP would be the nice way. Imagine if the DM was feeling really sadistic, and instead of creating the items, it took them from someone who was more powerful than the party?

Mike_Lemmer
2007-11-14, 06:59 PM
Just burning XP would be the nice way. Imagine if the DM was feeling really sadistic, and instead of creating the items, it took them from someone who was more powerful than the party?

Then you might as well adopt the Party Escort Position and wait for the deities to beat you like a red-headed stepchild.

turkishproverb
2007-11-14, 08:05 PM
Another funny story? Using the DMs against eachother.


We were playing an alternating campain using D&D rules that simulated the lord of the rings. Shortly after the sword was reforged, we split up ahead of schedule, and with our second DM switched off hobbits with the ring. (Huge will save, but that's a seperate issue) The other DM had the Witchking Cattching up with our party.

He cast MDJ as Arigorn was about to attack him. He disjoined the ring. We won before we reached moria. :smallbiggrin: