Base price for buying/selling simulacrums

[redking]

Lets say that simulacrums were for sale for labour or other purposes. How much would the expected base price of a given simulacrum be on average?

Simulacrum requires in terms of gold -


The spell is cast over the rough snow or ice form, and some piece of the creature to be duplicated (hair, nail, or the like) must be placed inside the snow or ice. Additionally, the spell requires powdered ruby worth 100 gp per HD of the simulacrum to be created.

Lets say the snow or ice is free.

And requires in terms of XP -


100 XP per HD of the simulacrum to be created (minimum 1,000 XP).

The XP is a minimum of 1,000 XP, so lets assume a 10 HD simulacrum is created. How much would a 10 HD simulacrum be sold for, and how would the cost scale as HD rises?

[Crake]

Lets say that simulacrums were for sale for labour or other purposes. How much would the expected base price of a given simulacrum be on average?

Simulacrum requires in terms of gold -



Lets say the snow or ice is free.

And requires in terms of XP -



The XP is a minimum of 1,000 XP, so lets assume a 10 HD simulacrum is created. How much would a 10 HD simulacrum be sold for, and how would the cost scale as HD rises?

XP is converted at a rate of 1 xp to 5gp. The base cost of spellcasting services is 10gp x CL x Spell level, so for a 10HD simulacrum, it would cost 10 x 7 x 13 (910gp) for base spellcasting services, plus 10 x 100 x 5 (5000gp) for xp costs, plus 10 x 100 (1000gp) for the ruby powder, a total of 6910gp, assuming that there's no inherent value in the part of the creature you're trying to duplicate (DM discretion).

For each additional HD up to 13, it would cost an extra 600gp, and after 13, it would cost an additional 670gp, as you need to increase the caster level of the spellcasting service.

Edit: Keep in mind however, that you'll never truly "own" a simulacrum, due to this clause: "At all times the simulacrum remains under your absolute command. " There is nothing stopping the caster from casting sending at any point and just telling your simulacrum to no longer follow your orders and come away with him.

[redking]

XP is converted at a rate of 1 xp to 5gp. The base cost of spellcasting services is 10gp x CL x Spell level, so for a 10HD simulacrum, it would cost 10 x 7 x 13 (910gp) for base spellcasting services, plus 10 x 100 x 5 (5000gp) for xp costs, plus 10 x 100 (1000gp) for the ruby powder, a total of 6910gp, assuming that there's no inherent value in the part of the creature you're trying to duplicate (DM discretion).

First - excellent response! I assume there will be a brisk and lucrative trade in toenail clippings and other parts of creatures that have useful abilities or skills. Especially for advanced creatures with at least double HD of the standard MM version (so the creature keeps all its standard, non-advanced abilities).


For each additional HD up to 13, it would cost an extra 600gp, and after 13, it would cost an additional 670gp, as you need to increase the caster level of the spellcasting service.

Edit: Keep in mind however, that you'll never truly "own" a simulacrum, due to this clause: "At all times the simulacrum remains under your absolute command. " There is nothing stopping the caster from casting sending at any point and just telling your simulacrum to no longer follow your orders and come away with him.

Right. I assume that the seller of such simulacrums would be an organization with a code of conduct. Otherwise the simulacrums being sold would be nigh worthless, or even a security threat. I guess such a guarantee has a monetary value, but I cannot guess exactly how much that might be worth.

[Crake]

First - excellent response! I assume there will be a brisk and lucrative trade in toenail clippings and other parts of creatures that have useful abilities or skills. Especially for advanced creatures with at least double HD of the standard MM version (so the creature keeps all its standard, non-advanced abilities).

Whether there is or isn't is entirely up to you and your DM to discuss I guess, there's no discussion about it in any books as far as I'm aware, so it's left to the DM's discretion.


Right. I assume that the seller of such simulacrums would be an organization with a code of conduct. Otherwise the simulacrums being sold would be nigh worthless, or even a security threat. I guess such a guarantee has a monetary value, but I cannot guess exactly how much that might be worth.

There are ways you could solidify the deal more concretely, like using a geas to prevent the caster from taking back their simulacrums, but that's at best, renting out simulacrums, not buying them.

The most secure way would be to create some kind of single use item that casts simulacrum, that anyone can use, and they can be bought and sold individually, and the simulacrum will remain tied to the item user. Scrolls are an obvious easy answer, but not everyone is capable of using scrolls. Staves are a bit easier, but still impossible for some people, and also more expensive. Wish would be the most universally accessible way of doing it, via a ring of three wishes or a luckblade, without going into custom magical items.

[Zanos]

Keep in mind that:

See spell description for additional costs. If the additional costs put the spell’s total cost above 3,000 gp, that spell is not generally available.

The base cost of a simulacrum at minimum CL would be 910 gp. Since each hit dice adds 100gp in materials and 500gp in xp, the most powerful simulacrum casting you could buy RAW is 3 HD. ((7*13*10)+(100*3)+(100*5*3))= 2710. Adding another hit dice would add 600gp, and take you over the limit.

If you want to venture outside of RAW, as a 13th level wizard with a high intelligence score, I would be very cautious about who I was providing spellcasting services for. And maybe use some divinations to perform a background check.

[icefractal]

Edit: Keep in mind however, that you'll never truly "own" a simulacrum, due to this clause: "At all times the simulacrum remains under your absolute command. " There is nothing stopping the caster from casting sending at any point and just telling your simulacrum to no longer follow your orders and come away with him.For this reason, I think what you really want to buy is a Scroll of Simulacrum, plus enough temporary UMD buffs to use it.

Now whether anyone would sell such a scroll at standard book price, when they could get significantly more money by making the simulacra themselves and having it work on their behalf, that's the question.

Likewise, in terms of selling you a created simulacra at cost - only if they're doing it as a favor to you, or really need money fast, IMO. Selling individual spellcasting services, for example, is going to yield a lot more.

[Zanos]

Now whether anyone would sell such a scroll at standard book price, when they could get significantly more money by making the simulacra themselves and having it work on their behalf, that's the question.
At first I thought that maybe they wouldn't want to manage it all, but then I realize they could make a simulacara to manage it on their behalf, and then I imagined an entire society that's just simulacra working on behalf of a wizard that's been dead or unseen for centuries.

[redking]

There are ways you could solidify the deal more concretely, like using a geas to prevent the caster from taking back their simulacrums, but that's at best, renting out simulacrums, not buying them.

You could say the same about slaves, really. Slaves often hate their masters and look for opportunities to escape or rebel. A simulacrum has a single point of failure - reclamation by the spellcaster creator.


Adding another hit dice would add 600gp, and take you over the limit.

I think Crake used costs for spellcasting services as a framework for what it could cost. It is more akin to selling a magical item or construct by commision, however.

[RandomPeasant]

At first I thought that maybe they wouldn't want to manage it all, but then I realize they could make a simulacara to manage it on their behalf, and then I imagined an entire society that's just simulacra working on behalf of a wizard that's been dead or unseen for centuries.

I'm pretty sure I've seen that exact adventure premise somewhere, but I forget if it was written up in full, or just a slightly more fleshed-out version of what you're suggesting.

[Crake]

For this reason, I think what you really want to buy is a Scroll of Simulacrum, plus enough temporary UMD buffs to use it.

Thing is though, you need at least 1 rank in UMD to use it at all, so all the temporary UMD buffs in the world won't let you use the scroll unless you have that one base rank, which not everyone will have. So if you're trying to create a market for simulacrums, you'd need something that's universally accessible.

Unless there's a spell out there that lets you use a skill untrained, which I might be overlooking?

[sreservoir]

I was double-checking whether skull talismans could be used for this, but it turns out Frostburn 111 also has the Simulacrum Elixir, so you can just use that.


Thing is though, you need at least 1 rank in UMD to use it at all, so all the temporary UMD buffs in the world won't let you use the scroll unless you have that one base rank, which not everyone will have. So if you're trying to create a market for simulacrums, you'd need something that's universally accessible.

Unless there's a spell out there that lets you use a skill untrained, which I might be overlooking?

Combined Talent (CM 100), Share Talents (PH2 124), and Wieldskill (PGtF 118) can cover you there.

[RandomPeasant]

You could also just get psychic reformation used on you, allowing you to move skill points into UMD.

[Crake]

I was double-checking whether skull talismans could be used for this, but it turns out Frostburn 111 also has the Simulacrum Elixir, so you can just use that.

Ah nice, there's your solution then. 21,000gp is a bit of a hike up in price compared to the relatively cheaper 6910 for a spellcasting service for a 10HD simulacrum, but this one is 100% guaranteed under your absolute command.

[Gruftzwerg]

Craft Contingent Spell can also be an option to solve this situation.

Craft the Simulacrum with a Greater Arcane Fusion on any creature, dead or alive. Use a command word spoken as activation trigger method.

This allows you to place a single Simulacrum on a dead body or a tiny animated object (if it should be bought from a NPC) via a Greater Arcane Fusion as carrier spell.

[Feldar]

This thread inspired me to put a side adventure into my next campaign where the characters wake up as their simulacrums without knowing it. Imagine the shock on their face when not everything works as expected and they're trying to figure out why. Imagine the shock when they run into their real selves (now being run by the judge!) and try to defeat them.

Then, when the real party defeats the simulacrums, they hunt down the spellcaster for veangeance.

Fun times!

[Prime32]

Edit: Keep in mind however, that you'll never truly "own" a simulacrum, due to this clause: "At all times the simulacrum remains under your absolute command. " There is nothing stopping the caster from casting sending at any point and just telling your simulacrum to no longer follow your orders and come away with him.
Simulacrums as a Service is a perfectly viable business model.


I was double-checking whether skull talismans could be used for this, but it turns out Frostburn 111 also has the Simulacrum Elixir, so you can just use that.The elixir lets you create a simulacrum of any creature, supplying the material component yourself, but it's always crude-looking.

Preferable would be an item where the decisions are made by the caster at casting time. This means that you can give all the simulacrums you sell a standardised appearance and abilities, and use your own Disguise modifiers to determine how well they turn out. This is good for advertising, and doesn't run the risk of powerful people getting mad over inappropriate use of their image.

An 11th-level artificer who wants to churn out standardised 1 HD "simulacrums in a can" should be able to sell them for 8,950gp each. And premium 10 HD simulacrums (modelled on a 20 HD creature) are 9,850gp.

EDIT: Using the rules in Stronghold Builder's Guidebook, you can halve the price of a magic item if it's particularly bulky and awkward to transport. So if you craft your make-a-simulacrum item as a simulacrum that's physically complete, but inert until someone speaks the command word to activate it, then you can cut the cost of the 10 HD model down to 4,925gp.

[Crake]

Simulacrums as a Service is a perfectly viable business model.

Right, except when the simulacrum then poses a giant security risk because if the creator decides to, he can just order the simulacrum to start ransacking the place, and this could even not be the fault of the creator if they're mind controlled and forced to send out those orders to the simulacrum. It creates a single failure point that could be disastrous for the entire system.


EDIT: Using the rules in Stronghold Builder's Guidebook, you can halve the price of a magic item if it's particularly bulky and awkward to transport. So if you craft your make-a-simulacrum item as a simulacrum that's physically complete, but inert until someone speaks the command word to activate it, then you can cut the cost of the 10 HD model down to 4,925gp.

Keep in mind that this is a base price multiplier, and so the additional costs due to XP and material components are not halved in this case. It would still cost at least 6,000gp for the ruby and xp for a 10HD simulacrum, so the final cost would be 7,925gp not 4,925gp.

The reason for this is because creating the item still requires the expenditure of the xp and material component for the artificer, so the cost to create it normally would actually be 1925gp and 154xp for the base craft, plus 1000gp worth of powdered ruby and 1000xp for the simulacrum components.

All that is actually entirely irrelevant, because to create wondrous architecture, it has the following preface: "If the item has a permanent spell effect, the costs are simple to determine." So a single use item does not qualify for the wondrous architecture cost reduction anyway.