Upgrading the Trickster Cleric

[Segev]

I started a thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?633741-Is-Invoke-Duplicity-quot-hot-garbage-quot-or-really-cool-Both-somehow) on whether Invoke Duplicity was any good, and got some good discussion out of it. It led me to considering that perhaps what the Trickster Cleric needs is for Blessing of the Trickster to integrate more into the rest of the Domain's features, and be a bit more interesting. I have likely overtuned things, here, but wanted to take a "throw at the wall and see what sticks" approach, so please let me know - if this is too much on the whole - what you think is balanced to keep with the rest trimmed out (or what you'd trim to bring it back into balance). Or, if you think anything's grossly overpowered on its own, I'd be interested in the analysis on that, too, please!

The design notion here is to focus a little bit more on Blessing of the Trickster, letting the Trickster Cleric still have some tricks up his sleeve, but also letting him be the one aiding other tricksters in doing more mischief.


Bonus Proficiencies
Choose one of the following:
You gain proficiency with Stealth and Sleight of Hand.
You gain proficiency with Deception and Persuasion.
You gain proficiency with Martial Weapons.

Blessing of the Trickster
Starting when you choose this domain at 1st level, you can use your action to touch a willing creature other than yourself to invest it with your god's mischievous power. The recipient of this blessing gets advantage on ability checks using the skill proficiencies you chose as your bonus proficiencies. If you chose martial weapon proficiency, the recipient instead receives advantage on attack rolls against Surprised creatures.

In addition, when you cast a Domain spell on yourself, you may choose to have it also affect the recipient of this blessing.

This blessing lasts for 1 hour or until you use this feature again. You may cast disguise self without using a spell slot, but only to alter your appearance to match that of the recipient of this blessing. If you cast disguise self in this way, the recipient of this blessing instead appears to be you. When you share spells through this blessing, they end for both of you if the blessing ends for the person with whom you're sharing them.

Invoke Duplicity
Starting at 2nd level, you can use your Channel Divinity to create an illusory duplicate of yourself.

As an action, you create a perfect illusion of yourself or the recipient of your Blessing of the Trickster that lasts for 1 minute. The illusion appears in an unoccupied space that you can see within 30 feet of you. On your turn, you can move the illusion up to 30 feet to a space you can see, but it must remain within 120 feet of you.

For the duration, you can cast spells as though you were in the illusion's space, but you must use your own senses. Additionally, when both your illusion and the person it looks like are within 5 feet of a creature that can see the illusion, the person it looks like has advantage on attack rolls against that creature, given how distracting the illusion is to the target.

Divine Strike
At 8th level, you gain the ability to infuse your weapon strikes with poison—a gift from your deity. Once on each of your turns when you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can cause the attack to deal an extra 1d8 poison damage to the target. When you reach 14th level, the extra damage increases to 2d8. If you have poison on your person, or are suffering from the effects of a poison, you may have that poison be inflicted by the strike instead of the extra poison damage. This consumes a dose of the chosen poison (incidentally removing any in your system from your system, effectively preventing further harm from it). As a reaction, you may share the poison with the recipient of your Blessing of the Trickster: their weapon becomes coated in the poison you choose, or deals the extra poison damage. You still must be carrying or suffering the effects of the poison chosen, and it uses up that dose.

Improved Duplicity
At 17th level, you can create up to four duplicates, instead of one, when you use Invoke Duplicity. On your turn, you can move any number of them up to 30 feet, to a maximum range of 120 feet.
This may now be a bit overtuned, overall, but I want to throw some things at the wall to see what sticks.

Just so it isn't missed: Invoke Duplicity has lost the Concentration requirement, and is a non-action to move about on your turn, in addition to the other changes.

[MrStabby]

So I need a bit of convincing.

I think trickery cleric is a relatively powerful subclass, better than most barbarians, rangers, rogues and monks anyway. Of all the options that could get a boost this seems an unlikely one.

It has an Awesome spell list, some great abilities and some... niche abilities.

The other thing I am unconvinced by is the type of changes. The changes seem to be making the cleric better at trickery, which I feel should be the role of bards and rogues.

I see the role of the trickery cleric as being to enable trickery in others. Boosts to stealth, pass without trace on the spell list etc.. I feel that a focus on supporting other PCs in trickery would help push this option into a more unique direction.

This is just a personal view, not an objective issue.

[Segev]

So I need a bit of convincing.

I think trickery cleric is a relatively powerful subclass, better than most barbarians, rangers, rogues and monks anyway. Of all the options that could get a boost this seems an unlikely one.

It has an Awesome spell list, some great abilities and some... niche abilities.

The other thing I am unconvinced by is the type of changes. The changes seem to be making the cleric better at trickery, which I feel should be the role of bards and rogues.

I see the role of the trickery cleric as being to enable trickery in others. Boosts to stealth, pass without trace on the spell list etc.. I feel that a focus on supporting other PCs in trickery would help push this option into a more unique direction.

This is just a personal view, not an objective issue.

For a full discussion of whether it is a powerful subclass or not, please see the linked thread. (I'm pretty sure its most recent post is well within the necromancy limits of the forum rules as I write this, too, though you may want to double-check that.)

I am a little puzzled by your concerns, though: the main focus of these changes is enabling the recipient of Blessing of the Trickster to be more tricky. In the PHB, the Trickster Cleric doesn't have much "enabling" at all: its spell list has self-targeting spells or spells that influence others directly, its signature divine channel feature is only useful for himself (and awkward, in my opinion, to use, and of questionable utility, sadly), and its only aid to others is an ability to give one person at a time advantage on stealth.

While I do let the Trickery Cleric get some skill proficiencies, and customize thereby what skills his Blessing of the Trickster gives a beneficiary, it also allows him to use his spells more on behalf of his beneficiary, and to do more interesting things for that beneficiary (like use Invoke Duplicity to make a copy of him rather than of the cleric).

[Kuulvheysoon]

Honestly, I'm not a fan of the Martial Weapon proficiency/benefits from Blessing of the Trickster. The former doesn't seem at all competitive compared to a pair of skill proficiencies, especially given that the benefit won't activate all that often. It's the Assassin problem. I do love the groupings of skills that you chose, though - you've got the Skullduggery Trickery opposed by the Charismatic Trickery, and I love that dichotomy.

Blessings of the Trickster is mostly, keeping in mind my earlier issues with the martial weapons bit. I do think that effectively giving you a (limited) version of Twin Spell is a bit much, however. Polymorph, blink and mirror image are all really good spells, and there's a damned good reason that two of those are Self spells. I love the alternate use of disguise self, though. That's a damned neat bit of flavour and Trickery right there.

Part of the issue of ID is how vague it is, and since this is a forum and not a printed book I don't think that it could hurt to be a bit more explicit as to what a "perfect illusion" entails. As you remember from that thread, opinion was divided on that.

I see that Channel Divinity: Cloak of Shadows at 6th level doesn't need to be touched then, eh? :smalltongue:

Even though I dislike Trickery being tied to poison damage, I like the addition of being able to use a poison that you have on you, but I'm not sure how I feel about being able to cleanse yourself of poison while doing it. There's some nasty, nasty poisons out there, and if you introduce this feature you're going to have to create/introduce rules on harvesting from monster corpses, because they will ask. Outright replacing the poison damage is risky. Does the cleric risky poisoning themselves or their Bless'd ally when they use it? Does it use the Monster DC?

[Segev]

Honestly, I'm not a fan of the Martial Weapon proficiency/benefits from Blessing of the Trickster. The former doesn't seem at all competitive compared to a pair of skill proficiencies, especially given that the benefit won't activate all that often. It's the Assassin problem. I do love the groupings of skills that you chose, though - you've got the Skullduggery Trickery opposed by the Charismatic Trickery, and I love that dichotomy.Thanks! That was the idea behind the groupings. The martial proficiency is mostly because somebody might prefer that, especially if they really like the Divine Strike, but I could leave it out. Is your objection that it's just not desirable, or that it's too powerful if taken? The former is acceptable to leave in, in my opinion, because it's one of those "if you want it, why not?" things. The latter is not, because "too good" isn't self-regulating.


I do think that effectively giving you a (limited) version of Twin Spell is a bit much, however. Polymorph, blink and mirror image are all really good spells, and there's a damned good reason that two of those are Self spells. I love the alternate use of disguise self, though. That's a damned neat bit of flavour and Trickery right there.What if it wasn't twin spell, but instead just let you target the beneficiary as if he were you?


Part of the issue of ID is how vague it is, and since this is a forum and not a printed book I don't think that it could hurt to be a bit more explicit as to what a "perfect illusion" entails. As you remember from that thread, opinion was divided on that.True. I was trying to edit wording minimally, but more clarity probably doesn't hurt.


I see that Channel Divinity: Cloak of Shadows at 6th level doesn't need to be touched then, eh? :smalltongue::smallredface: I honestly forgot all about it. It's one of those that's too strong to upgrade too much, but also feels super unsatisfying to use, so I'm really not sure what to do with it.


Even though I dislike Trickery being tied to poison damage, I like the addition of being able to use a poison that you have on you, but I'm not sure how I feel about being able to cleanse yourself of poison while doing it. There's some nasty, nasty poisons out there, and if you introduce this feature you're going to have to create/introduce rules on harvesting from monster corpses, because they will ask. Outright replacing the poison damage is risky. Does the cleric risky poisoning themselves or their Bless'd ally when they use it? Does it use the Monster DC?While I agree that they could use some more depth, and I have been tempted to try to write my own mini-house-rules-guide on poison in general, the DMG does have rules for harvesting poison from monsters. I am not sure putting them in this particular homebrew is the right place to do it.

Cleansing themselves of poison seems like a "dirty trick"/"turn the tables" move, which is why I included it.

The idea is that, no, there's no risk of poisoning the one making the attack; it's magic, after all.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Thanks! That was the idea behind the groupings. The martial proficiency is mostly because somebody might prefer that, especially if they really like the Divine Strike, but I could leave it out. Is your objection that it's just not desirable, or that it's too powerful if taken? The former is acceptable to leave in, in my opinion, because it's one of those "if you want it, why not?" things. The latter is not, because "too good" isn't self-regulating.Admittedly, it's the former. It just irks me to see a completely inferior option seemingly presented as equal, you know? In terms of opportunity cost, it's fair if you really want that rapier, and there's not a lot that could be attached to it in terms of benefits.


What if it wasn't twin spell, but instead just let you target the beneficiary as if he were you?That could be interesting. It'd only touch disguise self, mirror image, pass without trace and blink, but those are enough. All of them potent in their own ways, especially attaching PWoT to your designated scout character.


:smallredface: I honestly forgot all about it. It's one of those that's too strong to upgrade too much, but also feels super unsatisfying to use, so I'm really not sure what to do with it.Figured as much. Just teasin'

[quindraco]

I started a thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?633741-Is-Invoke-Duplicity-quot-hot-garbage-quot-or-really-cool-Both-somehow) on whether Invoke Duplicity was any good, and got some good discussion out of it. It led me to considering that perhaps what the Trickster Cleric needs is for Blessing of the Trickster to integrate more into the rest of the Domain's features, and be a bit more interesting. I have likely overtuned things, here, but wanted to take a "throw at the wall and see what sticks" approach, so please let me know - if this is too much on the whole - what you think is balanced to keep with the rest trimmed out (or what you'd trim to bring it back into balance). Or, if you think anything's grossly overpowered on its own, I'd be interested in the analysis on that, too, please!

Trickster is clearly intended to be like Arcane Trickster - i.e. based on enchantment and illusion. I recommend the following changes:

Bonus proficiencies: thematically, you force the cleric to choose between enchantment (the charisma skills) and illusion (the dexterity skills). The domain is supposed to be about both. Knowledge domain clerics get 2 languages and 2 skills with expertise; it's weaker than that just handing out four skills.
Bonus Proficiencies
You gain proficiency with Deception, Persuasion, Stealth, and Sleight of Hand.

Blessing of the Trickster: Let's just copy Twilight's new precedent and be done with it (nerfing it down to reasonable levels, of course).
Blessing of the Trickster
Starting when you choose this domain at 1st level, you can use your action to magically invest willing creatures you can see within 10 feet of you, up to a number of creatures equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum of one creature), with your god's mischievous power. Recipients of this blessing get advantage on Deception, Persuasion, Stealth, and Sleight of Hand checks. The blessing lasts for 1 hour. Once you invest, you can't do so again until you finish a long rest, unless you expend a spell slot of any level to do so again.

Invoke Duplicity: This has never made sense. Let's improve it to basically be the AT owl familiar it was always intended to be.
Invoke Duplicity
Starting at 2nd level, you can use your Channel Divinity to create an illusory duplicate of yourself. The duplicate is a creature woven from shadowstuff from the Shadowfell that perfectly replicates you cosmetically - it looks, sounds, smells, etc exactly like you. It is your size, and its type is construct. Attacks miss it automatically, it succeeds on all saving throws, and it is immune to all damage, conditions, diseases, curses, and so on - it doesn't require air, food, drink, or sleep, and it gains no benefit from finishing a short or long rest. It shares your turn and moves and acts as you will it. It cannot actually interact with the world - anything it attempts to do otherwise appears to succeed or fail as you dictate. For example, it can appear to read a sign, or appear to attempt to pick the sign up, but the sign can't be actually read or picked up. When it moves, it moves however you like, appearing to run, swim, climb, fly, or anything else; it can move up to your speed in any direction and through any creature or object as if they were not there, and can stop in their space. The duplicate dissipates if it is ever more than 120 feet from you.

Cloak of Shadows was never very flavorful, and we should be more AT-like anyway.
Cloak of Shadows
At 6th level, you become remarkably adept at channeling magical energy to deceive others. All enchantment and illusion spells now count as cleric spells for you.

Divine Strike has never fit this subclass - a poorly executed attempt to simulate Sneak Attack. Let's give it a modified Potent Spellcasting to make it more thematic.
Potent Spellcasting
Beginning at 8th level, you can add poison or psychic damage equal to your Wisdom modifier to the damage you deal with any cleric cantrip.

Improved Duplicity
At 17th level, you can create up to four duplicates, instead of one, when you use Invoke Duplicity. They can move and act independently.

[Kuulvheysoon]

See, I'm going to have to disagree with here, quindraco.

I think that you're going way too far. If you're going to nab Knowledge cleric as the comparison point for the 1st level, for example, you also have to consider that the skills/languages are the only thing that they get at that level, as opposed to Trickery also getting Blessings of the Trickster. Spellcasters are powerful enough as it is, and I actually appreciate the choice that's forced upon you by choosing one of the two (three) sets of skills/proficiency. It's much like the Fighting Style of the martial classes, helping you define who your character is. Not every character is good at everything, and the game would be less fun if they were.

I'm really not a fan of your suggested fix to Cloak of Shadows. Adding all enchantment and illusion spells to your list is a massive power boost. 6th level features aren't meant to be such a drastic change in your competence.

While I agree with you that Trickery should really get Potent Spellcasting over Divine Strike, I don't agree with your thoughts on making it a unique version. Let them keep the standard - it's not really standard to combine two energy types for cantrip casting.

[MrStabby]

For a full discussion of whether it is a powerful subclass or not, please see the linked thread. (I'm pretty sure its most recent post is well within the necromancy limits of the forum rules as I write this, too, though you may want to double-check that.)

I am a little puzzled by your concerns, though: the main focus of these changes is enabling the recipient of Blessing of the Trickster to be more tricky. In the PHB, the Trickster Cleric doesn't have much "enabling" at all: its spell list has self-targeting spells or spells that influence others directly, its signature divine channel feature is only useful for himself (and awkward, in my opinion, to use, and of questionable utility, sadly), and its only aid to others is an ability to give one person at a time advantage on stealth.

While I do let the Trickery Cleric get some skill proficiencies, and customize thereby what skills his Blessing of the Trickster gives a beneficiary, it also allows him to use his spells more on behalf of his beneficiary, and to do more interesting things for that beneficiary (like use Invoke Duplicity to make a copy of him rather than of the cleric).

This is what happens when you read something, read another few things on similar topics, go and eat a meal and then finish writing the answer you started hours ago!