Making a snake-bandit-themed ranged tank. Could use your advice!

[Man_Over_Game]

Just to hit the ground running:

Variant Human for Slasher (1 per turn, dealing slashing damage reduces speed by 10).
Barbarian: Ancestral Guardian.
Uses a whip to start. You probably know how this works: Hit the thing I want to cripple, run away so he can't hit me.

I am making him after a made-up tribe where their spirits pass on as viper spirits, tattoos are involved, blah blah blah. Important thing is, this is a brutal bandit tribe. They specialize in crippling a traveler's transportation that gets too close to their territory, stealing their stuff, and then releasing them with a knife and some rations for a couple days as a gesture of goodwill (assuming the hostage was nice during their visit, otherwise they become bait for hunts). They also hunt dangerous game as a means of improving their status within the tribe, whether that be armed people or big monsters. They're big on showing their strength and aren't scared of death, but they still consider tactical strength valid.

I didn't want this to be intended as a "Which is best?!" kind of thread, but instead want to hear what arguments you have on the choices. Each option is equally valid to me at the moment, but I'm at a crossroads and I'm having difficulty seeing the long-term benefits and cons of each choice.

This character isn't on the field quite yet, but I will be playing him in the near future, and what choices I make later on definitely have some sway on what kind of feat I would be starting out with.

Anyway, the problem I'm running into is figuring out what I do past level 3. I could:


Pick up Dual Wield, rock two whips, and now Recklessly hit a bunch without ever getting touched (unless I decide to tank with my face) while getting some nice synergy with my Rage damage. It also means I can reliably guarantee getting my taunt off without attacking Recklessly (as I'll have 3 attacks, more than enough). This is the best way to get Extra Attack the soonest, as well as that sweet level 6 Reaction shield that basically means I never have to face-tank.
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Dip into Battlemaster. There are a lot of synergies for things like Brace + Slasher (enemy moves within 10 feet of me, I slash and reduce their speed by 10, they don't have enough and can't move), Goading Strike (taunt a second enemy this turn), or Bait & Switch (Enemy manages to reach me, I swap places with an ally to avoid an OA and start running like mad as per usual). I could also flesh him out with something like Ambush to jack up my Stealth or Initiative as needed, proper for a retired highwayman.
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Dip into Soulknife. Soulknives, for starters, can throw their stupid 60ft range daggers without any ammunition, and doing so would free up my feat to grab something else (like a fighting style). With both Duelist and Throwing Weapons (like, say, dipping a single level into Fighter), that's a +4 damage per dagger. Soulknives have a unique benefit of scaling absurdly well with Proficiency, as most of their Psionic Dice benefits do. So after my 4 levels (3 Rogue, 1 Fighter), I'd be free to invest heavily into Ancestral Guardian and still reap the long-term benefits. I'd also get some cool stealth benefits, which definitely goes with my bandit vibe.
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I can also go into Echo Knight. EchoK has a lot of interesting perks with an Ancestral Guardian, like making your ghost harder to hit, granting it THP when it is hit, and having a bunch of extra melee attacks to throw around (great for rage bonuses). For this, PAM goes exceptionally well, as I'd have my Bonus Action available to bash people in the face. I wouldn't even need Extra Attack for a long while, since I'd have PAM, Action Surge, and the bonus attacks from EchoK to average 3 attacks per turn WITHOUT EXTRA ATTACK.

[RogueJK]

The Soul Knife route has issues, RAW. You technically can't use a Psychic Blade to make an Extra Attack with a thrown Soul Knife, since you only manifest one knife when you take the Attack action. And you won't be armed outside your turn, since you won't have any way to manifest an additional dagger until your next action on your next turn, so no OAs.

But if your DM is willing to compromise on those and let you constantly generate Soul Knives as needed, it's more doable. Or if you just only take 3 or 4 levels of Barbarian and never gain Extra Attack, and are fine with not making any OAs, it's doable.

[Man_Over_Game]

The Soul Knife route has issues, RAW. You technically can't use a Psychic Blade to make an Extra Attack with a thrown Soul Knife, since you only manifest one knife when you take the Attack action. And you won't be armed outside your turn, since you won't have any way to manifest an additional dagger until your next action on your next turn, so no OAs.

But if your DM is willing to compromise on those and let you constantly generate Soul Knives as needed, it's more doable. Or if you just only take 3 or 4 levels of Barbarian and never gain Extra Attack, and are fine with not making any OAs, it's doable.

Yeah, it'd basically have to be a purely ranged character if I was going that route. Not a bad one, though. Since AG only needs one hit to land for all of his subclass benefits, it's not like you really get all that much out of a third attack. Two just makes it so that you don't need Reckless Attack (and so can absorb more party damage over time).

Going heavily into Rogue does have a lot of cool benefits as well. It'd be an interesting way to play a ranged skill monkey that ALSO makes your party indestructible (against big targets).

[RogueJK]

Yeah, ranged characters with Ancestral Guardian dips can be a lot of fun. I've played a ranged Ancestral Guardian Barbarian/Battlemaster Fighter before, to good effect. A ranged AG 3 or 5/Rogue X seems like it'd be quite handy too.

[Sorinth]

Poisoner Feat is thematic but lackluster if you don't have access to better poisons so maybe check with the DM what kind of poisons you can expect to be able to acquire/make. As a note you could also refluff the Ancestral Protectors to be poison induced hallucinations to get that poison feel without actually taking a "bad" feat.

It's hard to go wrong with 2 or even 3 levels of Rogue since Cunning Action and Sneak Attack are both great, Battlemaster also offers some great option so it's hard to say. It basically comes down to whether you want to protect yourself more (Rogue), control the battlefield more (Fighter), or protect others more (Continue Barb). No right or wrong choice really.

[Man_Over_Game]

Poisoner Feat is thematic but lackluster if you don't have access to better poisons so maybe check with the DM what kind of poisons you can expect to be able to acquire/make. As a note you could also refluff the Ancestral Protectors to be poison induced hallucinations to get that poison feel without actually taking a "bad" feat.

It's hard to go wrong with 2 or even 3 levels of Rogue since Cunning Action and Sneak Attack are both great, Battlemaster also offers some great option so it's hard to say. It basically comes down to whether you want to protect yourself more (Rogue), control the battlefield more (Fighter), or protect others more (Continue Barb). No right or wrong choice really.

Hmm...So if I had to parse these into the perfect scenarios...

The Battlemaster route would probably work best with a melee-heavy team, as a lot of my maneuverability and redirection would excel with a front line and I wouldn't need a lot of extra range in the first place. It'd also work well in a smaller team, as I would need to have more influence as an individual if there weren't many folks to share damage.

The Barbarian and the Rogue fit similar roles in combat (focusing heavily on the taunt and range element), but more Barbarian works better with a larger team and provides the party a lot of sustain, while Rogue would basically allow me to have a lot of noncombat utility and be able to protect a massively wide area (which is perfect for a mostly ranged team).

So it basically comes down to:

Battlemaster: Melee team/Smaller team, packing PAM due to delayed Extra Attack
Barbarian : Big team or no healer, using Slasher to lower enemy mobility at medium range.
Rogue : Ranged team, or to add in some noncombat utility, using my feat for a Fighting Style for more damage.

[Crucius]

I was going to suggest Battlemaster, then I read you already thought about it.
Got a suggestion though: Menacing strike on melee-only enemies potentially locks them out of the fight when you use the range to your advantage. They cannot close in on you, and therefore cannot approach your allies (if positioned correctly).

[RogueJK]

Got a suggestion though: Menacing strike on melee-only enemies potentially locks them out of the fight when you use the range to your advantage. They cannot close in on you, and therefore cannot approach your allies (if positioned correctly).

Similarly, Goading Strike on a AG/BM multiclass lets you double down on the "not worth attacking my allies but you can't reach me" tanking aspect of a highly mobile ranged Ancestral Guardian, extending some of the effect to a second enemy.

If your first attack hits and triggers Ancestral Protectors against one enemy, you have the option to use your second attack to hit a second enemy and try to trigger Goading Strike on them.

Which results in you having two enemies stuck with Disadvantage to attack anyone but you, but you'll ideally be outside of both enemies' movement range.

[Hairfish]

Is the whip thing set in stone? You could be both a tank and a damage dealer with a heavy reach weapon and GWM. Your tribe's "snake style" could involve twitching the weapon shaft with your guiding hand so the weapon appears to bend and displace as you strike (like that old pencil trick). Maybe go with a pike instead of a slashing weapon to deal piercing damage, which would be more like a snake bite; Piercer crits aren't nearly as useful as Slasher crits, but they sure do look pretty, especially if you're a half-orc and/or going deep enough into barb for improved crits.

[da newt]

Echo Knight - AG can be very effective especially w/ Sentinel and can still do all the normal high damage ST weapon stuff and the Echo can be VERY handy for short teleportation, another tank/target, ability to move in any direction / hover, etc.

[MrStabby]

I can attest to ancestral guardian/echo knight being both powerful and quite fun. I would recomend it if you haven't done so.

[LudicSavant]

The Dual Wielder + whips thing is paying heavy costs (a weak ASI on an ASI-starved class, low damage die on a multi-attack/critboosting class, etc) and getting little in return for your efforts. Reach doesn’t even let you “free disengage” from a lot of the enemies you’d care to mark, because big attack-based foes like giants frequently have reach.

Contrast something like a Sentinel AG/Echo Knight that hits at full GWM force while having a longer reach and a better disengage.


Is the whip thing set in stone? You could be both a tank and a damage dealer with a heavy reach weapon and GWM. Your tribe's "snake style" could involve twitching the weapon shaft with your guiding hand so the weapon appears to bend and displace as you strike (like that old pencil trick). Maybe go with a pike instead of a slashing weapon to deal piercing damage, which would be more like a snake bite; Piercer crits aren't nearly as useful as Slasher crits, but they sure do look pretty, especially if you're a half-orc and/or going deep enough into barb for improved crits.

You could base it off the real life owari kan ryu sliding spear style, which is decidedly unique and very evocative of snakelike movements.

[MrStabby]

The Dual Wielder + whips thing is paying heavy costs (a weak ASI on an ASI-starved class, low damage die on a multi-attack/critboosting class, etc) and getting little in return for your efforts. Reach doesn’t even let you “free disengage” from a lot of the enemies you’d care to mark, because big attack-based foes like giants frequently have reach.

Contrast something like a Sentinel AG/Echo Knight that hits at full GWM force while having a longer reach and a better disengage.



You could base it off the real life Kudayari style, very evocative of snakelike movements.


I think that you can get a better tradeoff anyway by being a bugbear. You want to hit things and run away - you get reach this way with normal weapons. It isn't like the racial stats of Str and Dex are wasted on a barbarian that probably wants a modicum of dex for AC as well. And given you probably wont be in Heavy Armour, the stealth might not even go to waste.

[Spiritchaser]

To agree with others above: I once had a Yuan-Ti echo knight/ancestral guardian with sentinel. If you want a ranged tank, have an extra long look at one.

It was easily the most enjoyable pure martial I’ve seen, and in the top bunch for the most powerful pure martial as well. Edit: at least in combat

Now, it was definitely better against fewer hard foes than against swarms, but with no-save controls, a wicked debuff while raging and crazy mobility it could often make one or two really tough foes a bit of a joke for the party.