Optimization Are there any viable "Core only" builds for Soulknife? Only PHB races allowed [Archive]

ciopo

2021-07-14, 04:43 AM

The first thought to my mind is going Kensai 10, with the mind blade being the signature weapon of course, but that's not core only.

"Core only" PrC might as well not exist. Just straight up play a soulknife 1-20? Most "nonmagical warrior friendly" optimization are noncore in general, so you don't have much avenue to work about. Have your mindblade be a 2hander and pick power attack, that's about it as far as core-only optimization goes.

You got some leeway with wealth since you don't need to worry about making your weapon better, but that's that?

If soulknife was the secret ingredient for an Iron chef challenge, I'd probably do a soulknife10/kensai 10, but more likely a soulknife 8/kensai 10/Somethingelse2. Soulknife 5 is the baseline "can thf the mindblade", so I'm unlikely to take less than 5 levels of it, but by extension 5 is a bad stopping place since it's the second lost BAB.

The only reedemable thing is the, most likely not RAI, strange wording about the ehnacement bonus. In the SRD It says "A soulknife’s mind blade improves as the character gains higher levels. At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, the mind blade gains a cumulative +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls (+2 at 8th level, +3 at 12th level, +4 at 16th level, and +5 at 20th level)." , So you could argue that even jf you only ever have 4 levels of soulknife, it still scales up to +2,+3 etcetera. Seems obvious to me this would be class levels, not character levels, but they didd the "terrible" mistake of writing character in that paragraph, and munchkin me takes note of that.

With that Reading, Soulknife 6/Barbarian 12/Somethingelse 2 sounds passably okay to me, a guaranteed +5 keen weapon is an acceptable tradeoff, but really you could stop at soulknife 4 if you're happy with the lousy shortsword. It's coreonly martials you're comparing to, anyway

Arkhios

2021-07-14, 07:05 AM

Merely spitballing here, but I came up with a potentially quite playable build:

Start with Soulknife 6, then go to straight paladin 10+ (in a game where this character might come up, it's unlikely we get above level 16)

Aiming for mounted combat and spirited charge etc. with either mind longsword or even a bastard sword.

As an aside, I just realized that technically there's nothing to stop a warhorse taking wild talent and consequently speed of thought or even mental leap. At least I can't think of one.

Would this work?

Eldan

2021-07-14, 07:08 AM

I mean, what's "viable"? Is a core-only straight fighter, monk or ranger viable in your group or are you going to be playing with a cleric, a druid and a wizard?

Arkhios

2021-07-14, 07:28 AM

I mean, what's "viable"? Is a core-only straight fighter, monk or ranger viable in your group or are you going to be playing with a cleric, a druid and a wizard?

Well, FWIW, so far I know that other characters in our group will be something along these lines:

A cleric of a Sun deity aiming to focus on spellcasting.
A gnoll melee-something.
A rogue/sorcerer/arcane trickster.

However, it doesn't really matter to me much, whether my character is viable compared to them. I'm more concerned about a potential viability in a vacuum, because I'm decidedly against the whole classic "expected" group composition (cleric, fighter, rogue, wizard).

Anthrowhale

2021-07-14, 08:03 AM

The ability to use magic weapons inside of an AMF has some potential uses in a non-core build.

In a core build, there's always Polymorph Any Object.

Something like Soulknife 12/Fighter 4/Ranger 2/Barbarian 2 would get Base attack+17 at ECL 20. If you pay for PAO[Stone Giant] (which is available as a spellcasting service very early in career), then you could end up with an attack that deals 2d8(large bastard sword)+36(=24(raging +5 inherent +6 enhance str*1.5)+5(Enhance)+2(Expertise)+5(collision)) with an attack bonus of +39(=17 base +16(Str)+5(enhance)+2(GWF)-1(size)).

Deep Impact combined with Power Attack and Psychic Strike could also be potent, giving you a standard action attack that does ~92.5 damage reliably by maximizing power attack.

As a bonus, the stone giant's two-handed rock throwing is reasonably potent (2d8+24, 180' range increment, attack+24) ranged attack.

A higher level of optimization is possible using a tiefling changing into a Cornugon.

redking

2021-07-14, 08:35 AM

I've read pretty much everything about psionic optimization, and nothing can save the soul knife. Ask your DM for full BAB at least. Maybe that might at least make your soul knife a competitor.

ciopo

2021-07-14, 08:39 AM

The ability to use magic weapons inside of an AMF has some potential uses in a non-core build
Mind blafe is a SU ability

Anthrowhale

2021-07-14, 09:15 AM

Mind blafe is a SU ability
Yes, but there is special language for using it inside of a Null Psionics Field = AMF. To succeed though, you need to be able to reliably make a DC 20 will save, which is tough using just core classes.

AnimeTheCat

2021-07-14, 10:01 AM

So... What do you want to do as a Soulknife? The world's your oyster really, the class is as limited or as versatile as you let it be depending on what you want to do.

Conventional wisdom might dictate that you play something like Fighter 2/Soulknife X. The idea here is that you use levels 1 and 2 to pick up necessary combat feats, such as Power Attack and Improved Initiative. Then, you slap the heaviest armor on yourself you can, and fight with a weapon and shield until level 7, at which point you use the bastard sword shaped mind blade to just power attack. Useful feat to pick up would be Psionic Charge (after you get Speed of thought for free) though that does increase your stat requirements (IMO you should have a decent wisdom anyway to support your Will Saves, though Soulknife does get good will saves). Hallmarks here, you remove your Dex dependency as you can weary heavy armor, and you're basically a Fighter with an automatically improving weapon. Not bad, could be worse. You want high Con and High strength. Everything else is icing on the cake. No need to sink points in to Combat Expertise or Improved Trip, you don't have a way to get reasonable enough reach to make use of an attack of opportunity build. If you want to, you could pick up stand still, but it's only good for once per round so not much mileage to be had. Helpful mind blade enhancements might be Mighty Cleaving (if that's something that comes up in your campaign at all), Collision, Wounding, and (if you can handle it) vicious.

You could also do some good work with a blend of Soulknife and Rogue. Similar wisom applies here, but the composition is going to be more rogue heavy. You probably want to lean in to your Dex a lot more, so your strength will be lower, but you should be trying to rely on your Sneak Attack for the majority of your damage, not your strength or additional damage. This is likely to look more like Rogue 7/Soulknife 13. This gets you 4d6 sneak attack plus knife to the soul which is pretty useful for targeting enemy spellcasters (though you'll either not have this most of the game or you'll be dealing pathetic damage most of the game). This build leans in to Dex and Two Weapon Fighting more, so your feats would be the TWF line. Obvious supporting feats from XPH are deadly precision and in my opinion up the walls. Good mind blade enhancements here would definitely be Collision (+5 damage per hit is pretty close to the average of 2d6 sneak attack, but on every hit consistently) and psychokinetic. Defending might be useful if you find yourself getting hit a lot, but you're consistently hitting.

Both generic builds are viable, but those aren't by any means the only builds you can use. For example, a more esoteric build might be a sword and board soulknife. A Halfling or Gnome with a Heavy shield might not be a damage powerhouse, but can be formidable as a roadblock or AC sink and deal respectable damage in some circumstances. At later levels with Bladewind, you might be a decent crowd controller. I think appropriate feats for this are Psionic Body, Psionic Weapon, Greater Psionic Weapon, Deep Impact, Wounding Attack, and Psionic Meditation (not necessarily all of those, or even in that order). The idea here is that instead of full attacking, you're sinking your actions in to particularly potent single strikes to deal ability damage or high amounts of additional damage. The difference between this and the power attack build is, obviously no power attack, but the addition of a shield for improved AC (and thus improved support if more book options are available to you after character creation) as well as potentially more HP (from Psionic body, if you choose that route). Mind Blade Enhancements that may be useful here are Defending or Wounding (the slow killer).

Those should all be as viable as any other build for a Fighter or Barbarian out of Core, with the added benefit that you don't need any money spent on a weapon, so you could feasibly spend more on other consumables or permanent magic items, potentially giving you an edge. Not to mention, you won't be stuck with whatever the magic vendor or dungeon drops (if that's how your DM rolls), you can customize your mind bade each day.

Final things of note, from my experience;
- Don't try to be the skill monkey. You have a decent list of skills, but you do not have the skill points to support it nor do you really have many of the prime skillmonkey skills or trapfinding. Pick your skills that you'll be using most, depending on your build (so probably move silently, hide, and tumble at least for the soulknife/rogue, whatever you think will be useful for the others).
- Don't try to do it all. Nobody does this well, no not even that class. Just because you get Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus with your morphing weapon doesn't mean that you can support multiple different combat styles. Pick a style and stick to it.
- Have a game plan for when you're fighting mindless enemies. Undead and vermin are very common enemies in pretty much any campaign, so you'll likely not be able to use your Psychic Strike on them. "What am I going to do knowing that weakness?" needs to be a question that you have an answer to before the occasion actually comes up.

daremetoidareyo

2021-07-14, 11:02 AM

Are web articles permitted? Cuz then we can get you hidden talent and a manifester level

Darg

2021-07-14, 11:23 AM

Soulknife 6/War Mind 10/soulknife 7-10

You can shape your mind blade, materialize it as a free action, and enhance it with the lucky ability. You can now reroll any attack you miss all day long. If your DM doesn't like that reading, all you have to do is split your mind blade and not use the second weapon, but it would be pretty shallow of them to do so.

War Mind gives power points, powers, additional abilities, and high BAB. Sweeping strike can be particularly devastating if combined with bladewind from soulknife. It basically gives you up to 3 attacks with every single attack.

Core soulknife can be very effective. It just isn't a high tier class and there isn't much support without supplements from other books like Complete Psionics. Which is where War Mind comes in. It gives the Soulknife more flexibility at the cost of halting class feature progression. This is why I recommend entering at CL 7 vs 6. As Mind Cleave isn't core, I don't recommend doing it at CL 8.

Are web articles permitted? Cuz then we can get you hidden talent and a manifester level

Soulknifes already have a manifester level as they are a psionic class. The issue is that they don't get base power points or the ability to manifest powers on their own. They arguably get bonus power points from charisma, but it requires extrapolation.

You also don't need the web article to trade wild talent for hidden talent as they are different versions of the same feat already.

Maat Mons

2021-07-14, 04:26 PM

I'm not quite sure I know how to parse those restrictions you listed. Does the "except" bit list things that are not allowed even if they are in one of the allowed books? Or does it list things that are allowed even if they're not in one of the allowed books?

The main benefit of the Soulknife class is to provide you with a weapon. In games where you would have had a weapon anyway, this is ... less than stellar. But there exist circumstances where it does provide a benefit. If a game starts with your characters naked in the wilderness with no ability to buy supplies. If the game takes place in prison, and the guards routinely strip-search you to confiscate any shivs you've managed to craft. Or if you're an assassin whose MO is to pose as a concubine or exotic dancer to get close to your targets.

You'll want to start every fight with a Psychic Strike charged up in your weapon. But I can't see any reason you'd want to charge up your weapon during combat. At least, not once full attacking is an option.

Particle_Man

2021-07-14, 04:31 PM

I don't think it would fit your party ethically, but a mind blade is a nice weapon for an Assassin if you need to go weaponless to get you your victim.

Arkhios

2021-07-14, 11:59 PM

PoeticallyPsyco

2021-07-15, 12:51 AM

Well, if you're willing to loosen it from "XPH + PHB" to "book with Soulknife + PHB", the 3.0 version of Soulknife is actually pretty cool. It's a prestige class that IIRC progresses psionics every odd level and gives you Sneak Attack every even level, plus a few other cool things (or was did it have its own psionics progression? Been a while since I looked at it). You'd have to do a little bit of conversion, though; not all of the 3.0 psionics mechanics made the transition to 3.5, and the 3.0 Soulknife use one of them for some of its class features ("psionic attack"? something like that).

Maat Mons

2021-07-15, 02:04 AM

They say the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over, but expecting different results.

You did indeed write "Can only use PHB or XPH (excluding races and manifester classes and/or prestige classes)." int he first post. And those words in that order didn't make it clear to me what you meant.

Your response to finding out that I can't infer your meaning from that exact sentence is ... to repeat that sentence. Well, unsurprisingly, the sequence of words that didn't clear things up for me the first time also didn't clear things up for me the second time. And I'm honestly baffled as to why you would have expected any other result.

Something that may help is to rephrase the same idea in a different way. It might turn out that the new wording gets the idea across when the old wording didn't. It could also turn out that it doesn't help. There's no way to know for sure without trying. The only thing we know for certain won't help is using the phrase "Can only use PHB or XPH (excluding races and manifester classes and/or prestige classes)." We know it won't work because we've already tried it (twice) and, well, it didn't work.

I know that what you wrote seems perfectly clear to you. I mean, you're the one who wrote it. You know what you meant. It might even be clear to other people. I might literally be the only person in the world who looks at what you wrote and doesn't know what you meant. But I don't know what you meant. And there's really nothing I can do about it other than ask you to try communicating the idea is a somewhat different way.

The part of "excluding" that is hard to parse is what it ranges over. Are races, prestige classes, and manifesting classes excluded from being subjected to the limitation of only using material from the Player's Handbook and Expanded Psionics Handbook? Or are races, prestige classes, and manifesting classes excluded from counting as part of the Expanded Psionics Handbook for purposes of it's status as an allowed book?

Or, to put it another way, saying "can only use X" is equivalent to saying "can use things in X and cannot use things not in X." Is the stuff in the "excluded" clause excluded from the "can use things in X" part, or is it excluded from the "cannot use things not in X" part? I assume it's not excluded from both parts, because that would result in the stuff from the "excluded" clause having no status with regard to whether it is usable or not.

Arkhios

2021-07-15, 04:03 AM

I know that what you wrote seems perfectly clear to you. I mean, you're the one who wrote it. You know what you meant. It might even be clear to other people. I might literally be the only person in the world who looks at what you wrote and doesn't know what you meant. But I don't know what you meant. And there's really nothing I can do about it other than ask you to try communicating the idea is a somewhat different way.

The part of "excluding" that is hard to parse is what it ranges over. Are races, prestige classes, and manifesting classes excluded from being subjected to the limitation of only using material from the Player's Handbook and Expanded Psionics Handbook? Or are races, prestige classes, and manifesting classes excluded from counting as part of the Expanded Psionics Handbook for purposes of it's status as an allowed book?

Or, to put it another way, saying "can only use X" is equivalent to saying "can use things in X and cannot use things not in X." Is the stuff in the "excluded" clause excluded from the "can use things in X" part, or is it excluded from the "cannot use things not in X" part? I assume it's not excluded from both parts, because that would result in the stuff from the "excluded" clause having no status with regard to whether it is usable or not.

Alright, here's a more thorough explanation:

Due to reasons established by our DM's setting, for this particular purpose, I am only allowed to use the 3.5 Player's Handbook (okay, FWIW, I can use player options from 3.5 DMG), as well as Expanded Psionics Handbook (also 3.5) to certain extent:

Psionic races found in XPH are not allowed, because they do not exist in the setting.
Manifesting classes are no longer allowed because psionic powers have been found, based on our mutual experience in a previous campaign, to be far too strong compared to traditional spells, even with the psionics-magic transparency in effect.

Similarly any and all prestige classes that have their own manifester levels are not allowed

Feats are allowed, as long as you meet their prerequisites, which should go without saying (for example, Wild Talent is a General feat, without any prerequisites whatsoever, that enables you to take most Psionic Feats).
Skills and additional uses for standard skills when relevant are allowed.
Technically, psionic items would be allowed, if one knew where to find them.

In short, psionics is mostly unknown to the majority of people. Some well educated scholars may know of its existence, but that's pretty much it.

Does that make any more sense?

Well, if you're willing to loosen it from "XPH + PHB" to "book with Soulknife + PHB", the 3.0 version of Soulknife is actually pretty cool. It's a prestige class that IIRC progresses psionics every odd level and gives you Sneak Attack every even level, plus a few other cool things (or was did it have its own psionics progression? Been a while since I looked at it). You'd have to do a little bit of conversion, though; not all of the 3.0 psionics mechanics made the transition to 3.5, and the 3.0 Soulknife use one of them for some of its class features ("psionic attack"? something like that).

It has nothing to do with my own willingness. Because of reasons established above, I have to work with these restrictions. I don't have the power to alleviate them because a) I'm not the DM and b) I respect the DM's vision of their setting. It's not my place to tell them to do otherwise.

.
.
.

As a more general remark, why is it that people always think that as long as it has been printed it must be available for everyone? Why is it they can't get it into their heads that the DM has the final say if something is allowed or not, if anything.

Crake

2021-07-15, 04:15 AM

Arkhios

2021-07-15, 04:41 AM

I think it comes back to what you define as "viable"? You said it doesn't matter how it relates to the party, you want it viable in a vacuum, but that's even more difficult to define, because there's no point of reference. What is viable to one player is too weak or too strong to another, we need a point of reference to make it "viable" for you.

FWIW, I have no particular idea of what I would want to do with soulknife. But since playing one is a possibility, I came here to ask if any builds at all, considering these restrictions, could be viable in any reasonable measure.

You are allowed to talk with your DM and ask for things beyond what they've strictly made available you know. Worst case the DM will just say no. Like, the soulbow, a prestige class specifically designed for the soulknife, is in complete psionic, and could be a really good addition to your build, and definitely seems like something your DM may approve as a single piece of content outside of the "standard" allowed material that he normally runs, as it fits within all the thematic restrictions he has.

All I ask is to humor me, assume the answer is 'no' to any requests that would go beyond the already mentioned restrictions.

Are web articles permitted? Cuz then we can get you hidden talent and a manifester level

Soulknifes already have a manifester level as they are a psionic class. The issue is that they don't get base power points or the ability to manifest powers on their own. They arguably get bonus power points from charisma, but it requires extrapolation.

You also don't need the web article to trade wild talent for hidden talent as they are different versions of the same feat already.

Actually, they don't. Although Soulknives receive Wild Talent as a bonus feat, and gain a reserve of 2 power points, they do not gain the ability to manifest powers simply by virtue of having this feat. The class feature says, and I quote: "A soulknife gains Wild Talent as a bonus feat. (This class feature provides the character with the psionic power he needs to materialize his mind blade, if he has no power points otherwise.)"

Nowhere in the class description does it even so little as mention a manifester.

Being a psionic character is not equal to being a manifester. If it was, merely taking the Wild Talent as a wizard would make a wizard a manifester.

Fouredged Sword

2021-07-15, 06:05 AM

Do you include the SRD in "core"? You are using soulknife so I would assume so.

If so, you have access to a number of Psionic PRC's that are quite interesting.

Soulknife 5 / Warmind 10 / Soul Knife 5

You get a lot of goodies, including a higher BAB, a few powers you can use, and the ability to hit three squares with each melee swing. Practiced manifester can get you to manifester level 14 for your war mind powers. You are limited in PP per day, but you can grab some key psiwar powers like expansion. Due to how many psionic powers scale into higher effective level powers with extra PP, the fact that you are a half manifester at best is less painful than being a partial spellcaster would.

And you are still focused on hitting things with your mindblade throughout the progression. Level 10 is about the sweet spot of this build, as you get sweeping strikes and this lets you clean up mobs fairly nicely.

Fizban

2021-07-15, 06:05 AM

The thing about the Soulknife is that it gets a free weapon. People say, "oh you could have just had a weapon!" Sure, but you have a free weapon. Which means you now have extra money. It might not be exactly in the proportions you want, but the usual advice is to spend what, ~50% of your WBL on your weapon? And you've got one for free.

Except you don't just have one free weapon- you kinda have two. Because you can throw your mind blade, which means unlike some chump fighter who needs to pay for both a melee and throwing weapon, you get both, for free, and they use the same feats. You can't multi-throw it, but neither can they without spending even more. Except you can also split your mind blade, so you kinda have three. But you can also enlarge your mind blade for two-handed power attack, so you kinda have four.

People complain about the Soulknife's 3/4 BAB. But it's a magic warrior like a monk, or bard, or yes even psywar. Thematically they're just flat-out not supposed to have full BAB. But what does the Soulknife have? Bonus dice. Bonus dice which can't be multiplied by lolnumber of attacks, but which also don't require you to strike from hiding or move around. You charge your blade, you get bonus damage. And later, you charge your blade, you deal no-save mental ability damage.

So what's the Soulknife's real biggest problem? The same one the monk has, which usually goes unnoticed: it's just AC. Soulknife and Monk are both classes which regardless of your acceptance of standard party roles, still have basically all their abilities focused on melee combat, but with garbage AC. The Monk needs a fix to fix that, but the Soulknife just needs to dip 1 level of Fighter or other heavy armor class of choice.

Also much like the Monk, the Soulknife has a problem in two of their major class features conflicting with each other: where the Monk has bonus speed but needs to stand in place to full attack, the Soulknife has modest bonus dice that refuse to hit all creatures when using Bladewind.

Completely vanilla Soulknife is still not very good, particularly because the main feature of extra money is less useful with only core items to choose from. But if nothing else you can use that money to buy a Scarab, Golembane and some vials of Silversheen and Oils of Bless Weapon to handle DR, all in core (your mind blade is a physical object when it exists after all). But really the biggest problem is that it needs to go in a game where rogues are never expected to sneak attack more than 1/round and hitting with one or two basic attacks is considered normal damage- which is exactly the type of game I would expect for "Core Only."

I would suggest Fighter 1/Soulknife X (starting with either). You wear heavy armor and carry a shield like any other fighter, but instead of switch-hitting with a bow, you have your mind blade. Take TWF to enable holding/delivering two Psychic Strikes. Take Power Attack for when you want to do that. Take Combat Expertise if you've got the stats to afford it for when it's time to shield up and do that. Consider Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot so that you can fling a blade whenever it's convenient. Or Psionic Weapon and Deep Impact for when you really want to hit, or Greater Psionic Weapon for the +4d6. What race? Well dwarves are OP and like armor, so can't go wrong there.

Dragon 341 has some extremely tame Soulknife feats that take many of the steps needed to fill in the few true fixes they need, if you can get a hold of them. The Mind's Eye web article that allows swapping Psychic Strike for bonus feats explicitly mentions this dragon mag article, making it basically as canon as the web article itself.

Arkhios

2021-07-15, 06:49 AM

Do you include the SRD in "core"? You are using soulknife so I would assume so.

Well, 3.5 Soulknife is actually in Expanded Psionics Handbook, but everything found in the book, with some trademarks filed off, is included as part of the SRD, so you're not wrong per sé.

However, I would be lying if I said that SRD in its entirety counts as part of the "core" assumption in this regard. The entire SRD includes content from several books: Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Deities & Demigods, and Unearthed Arcana. I find it's easier to list the resources in the specific books that are allowed, rather than list everything that is or isn't allowed from the SRD.

Fouredged Sword

2021-07-15, 07:00 AM

Well, 3.5 Soulknife is actually in Expanded Psionics Handbook, but everything found in the book, with some trademarks filed off, is included as part of the SRD, so you're not wrong per sé.

However, I would be lying if I said that SRD in its entirety counts as part of the "core" assumption in this regard. The entire SRD includes content from several books: Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Deities & Demigods, and Unearthed Arcana. I find it's easier to list the resources in the specific books that are allowed, rather than list everything that is or isn't allowed from the SRD.
My tables never seem to consider psionics core, but that may have been just us.

Pretty sure you have Warmind then. That is where I would go with things. Enough Soulknife to give you that soulknife characteriszation, then enough classes with class features to give you actual umph.

A Fighter dip may not be out of the realm of options though.

Fighter 2 / Soul Knife 5 / Warmind 10 / Soul Knife 3 is a viable build. The fighter levels let you pick up heavy armor prof as well as power attack straight out of the gate. You end up with 18 Bab, so you get your third iterative attack before level 20. Platemail will serve you well until you can replace it with a mithril breastplate suitably enchanted.

AnimeTheCat

2021-07-15, 07:14 AM

I would suggest Fighter 1/Soulknife X (starting with either). You wear heavy armor and carry a shield like any other fighter, but instead of switch-hitting with a bow, you have your mind blade. Take TWF to enable holding/delivering two Psychic Strikes. Take Power Attack for when you want to do that. Take Combat Expertise if you've got the stats to afford it for when it's time to shield up and do that. Consider Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot so that you can fling a blade whenever it's convenient. Or Psionic Weapon and Deep Impact for when you really want to hit, or Greater Psionic Weapon for the +4d6. What race? Well dwarves are OP and like armor, so can't go wrong there.

Is that the way the bolded part works? I was under the impression from reading the Psychic strike ability that it only applied the bonus once. Actually, reading it again, it just outright says it,

Psychic Strike (Su):
...
A mind blade deals this extra damage only once when this ability is called upon, but a soulknife can imbue his mind blade with psychic energy again by taking another move action.
,,,

So this works one of two ways, and I think both are equally just "ok". Either you shape two short sword mind blades and then you can only charge a single psychic strike in to one of those blades, or you can charge two psychic strikes at the cost of two move actions. If you consider that both short swords are the same mind blade, just shaped differently, I feel like the first is true because you can't charge the same mind blade more than once. If you consider that the mind blade is actually two separate mind blades when shaped this way, I feel like the second is true.

OP, I'm going to double down on my recommendation (and agree with Fizban on recommendations too) that you just take a level of Fighter or two, and then use Soulknife to do all the rest. It gives you plenty to be a decent combatant in most situations, and frees up a lot of wealth for other items that you can use (better armor and defensive items, for example).

Here's an ask that your DM may approve though. Ask them to look at the Soulbow prestige class from Complete Psionic, if they can. It is Soulknife for archers and, in my opinion, a better option for a "default" soulknife. Just like Soulknife, it isn't a manifesting class, so no powers or anything to be concerned with. It lets you be wholly Dex dependent, which helps alleviate that AC issue, you're not a melee character (again, alleviates the AC issue) and it plays nicely with all of the rapidshot/manyshot feats because of the fact that it is a free action to shape the mind arrow. Now, OP I realize that you said "assume no" which I have done to this point, but this seems in-line with what your DM has outlined in their world, and would be able to be implemented in time however the DM sees fit (as it is a prestige class). It doesn't rock the boat for what they've already outlined and it doesn't require any narrative changes on the part of the DM's worldbuilding either. Just something to think about that might be worthwhile reaching out to your DM about, because I think there's lots of value added with Soulbow.

Arkhios

2021-07-15, 07:20 AM

My tables never seem to consider psionics core, but that may have been just us.

In a bygone age, a long, long time ago [cue blue text against a starry sky...], before Pathfinder, or 4th and 5th edition D&D, my tables consisted almost entirely of Living Greyhawk games, and that campaign didn't consider psionics as part of core. In our Eberron games, it has always been a part of core, however. As well as in Dark Sun, obviously.

A few years ago we got back to playing 3.5 to sort-of reminisce "the good old days". The next adventure we'll tackle, likely within half a year or so, will be the last one using 3.5, so it's kinda like the last chance to try something weird only available in 3.5 :smallbiggrin:

What would you guys say, would a mounted soulknife with spirited charge be good? Even if the mount wasn't anything special?

I mean, while mounted, you can do whatever you want with your move action, right? It would seem a good use of move action to charge the mind blade with psychic strike before making a mounted charge with it, because it's the mount who uses the full-round action to move, right? And, if I'm not mistaken, since Psychic Strike is not precision damage, it would in fact be multiplied in spirited charge (and by critical hit?)

Fouredged Sword

2021-07-15, 08:08 AM

Fizban

2021-07-15, 08:13 AM

Is that the way the bolded part works? I was under the impression from reading the Psychic strike ability that it only applied the bonus once. Actually, reading it again, it just outright says it,
The FAQ made a ruling that you could hold one in each blade, and Complete Psionic put it in print on page 56.

And, if I'm not mistaken, since Psychic Strike is not precision damage, it would in fact be multiplied in spirited charge (and by critical hit?)
It's still bonus dice, which don't multiply. Specifically the phrase is "extra damage beyond a weapon's normal damage," (from Rules Compendium) which is incredibly vague and open to interpretation, but the examples it gives are flaming swords and sneak attacks. It traces back to the Combat, Damage, Multiplying damage section of the PHB/SRD which says " Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied." (emphasis added), and again the examples are a flaming sword and sneak attack.

As for a Soulknife on a horse: Sure, lets you move while psychic striking every round, no reason not to (aside from not having the Ride skill). I wouldn't make a point of spending mounted feats on it since a non-companion mount is generally considered fragile, and as noted the bonus dice won't multiply. Skirmishing with psychic strike thrown mind blades lets you get a decent hit every round without any penalties for shooting while riding, zero investment. Essentially it's a basic "equipment" combo that you might as well take advantage of: a soulknife with free draw is just naturally decent at mounted skirmishing.

One thing you might consider taking advantage of for weirdness that you normally wouldn't is Improved Sunder. Which is available as a mind blade special ability, so you can in theory equip it if you know you're going to be fighting say humanoids with trash weapons, and then when you're not fighting them any more trade it back in for something else.

Arkhios

2021-07-15, 08:38 AM

I gotta ask what the soulknife is doing in the build that a warrior with a lance can't simply do better. An extra multiplier on your charge attack seems more useful than an extra handfull of dice that does nothing on any undead, constructs, or mindless creature.

And a fighter can essentially do the same thing with feats via psionic weapon.

Fair point. I suppose soulknife is doing the warrior's job in their special snowflake way, trying to at least appear as if they know what they're doing :smallbiggrin:

JyP

2021-07-15, 09:28 AM

Well, using only PHB and a soulknife with no psionics, I guess it is the only base class specialized in throwing - even throwing exotic blades. It can be seen as using a lot of hidden throwing knives, or even as a card shark imbuing cards with energy.

One question for your DM though : what about special abilities which can be added on the conjured blade ? Default list for soulknife mostly contains psionic options, maybe negotiate to be able to add any special ability available to blades from DMG up to +4 ? Or gain access to special abilities the same way than wizards gain new spells from 6th-level onward ?

edit : I would even ask if your soulKnife can spend half WBL freely to improve his blade in unexpected ways : an intelligent weapon for example.

Anthrowhale

2021-07-15, 10:41 AM

Fair point. I suppose soulknife is doing the warrior's job in their special snowflake way, trying to at least appear as if they know what they're doing :smallbiggrin:

Deep Impact + Power Attack + Spirited Charge is somewhat compelling.

Soulknife 6/Fighter 4 with feats:

1 Psionic Weapon
3 Psionic Meditation
6. Power Attack
Fighter 1 Mounted combat
Fighter 2 Ride-by-Attack
9. Deep Impact
Fighter 4 Spirited Charge

Your initial spirited charge would deal (16(two-handed power attack)+2(enhance)+1d10(medium bastard sword)+Str*1.5)*2+1d8(psychic strike)+1d4(Psychokinetic). If you are an wood elf or half orc for the +2 str bonus, then by level 10 your strength could be an adjusted 26 = 20 (base)+2(levels)+4(enhance) for a +8 Str bonus, yielding an expected 78 damage. That's reasonable at level 10.

Darg

2021-07-15, 01:37 PM

Actually, they don't. Although Soulknives receive Wild Talent as a bonus feat, and gain a reserve of 2 power points, they do not gain the ability to manifest powers simply by virtue of having this feat. The class feature says, and I quote: "A soulknife gains Wild Talent as a bonus feat. (This class feature provides the character with the psionic power he needs to materialize his mind blade, if he has no power points otherwise.)"

Nowhere in the class description does it even so little as mention a manifester.

Being a psionic character is not equal to being a manifester. If it was, merely taking the Wild Talent as a wizard would make a wizard a manifester.

We are talking about manifester levels, the equivalent of caster levels for spellcasters. The soulknife isn't a manifesting class, but it is a psionic class:

MANIFESTER LEVEL
The variables of a power’s effect often depend on its manifester level, which is equal to your psionic class level.

This means if you have the Hidden Talent feat, which gives you the ability to manifest, a level 20 soulknife can manifest those 1st level powers as a level 20 manifester. This is for the hidden talent feat specifically; it also mentions that the psionic class levels are used to determine manifester level:

If you have psionic class levels, you can manifest the power at the highest manifester level you have attained.

The Mind Blade is a supernatural ability. The part about needing the Wild talent feat to manifest it is there to imply that the soulknife is using psionic power to create it. That and without it it couldn't qualify for PRCs that require a power point reserve.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Except you don't just have one free weapon- you kinda have two. Because you can throw your mind blade, which means unlike some chump fighter who needs to pay for both a melee and throwing weapon, you get both, for free, and they use the same feats. You can't multi-throw it, but neither can they without spending even more. Except you can also split your mind blade, so you kinda have three. But you can also enlarge your mind blade for two-handed power attack, so you kinda have four.

Free Draw let's you materialize your Mind Blade as a free action, just like Quick Draw let's you draw weapons as a free action. You can also use it to make full attacks. The SRD cut out extremely important information about the once per round statement:

Free Draw (Su): At 5th level, a soulknife becomes able to materialize his mind blade as a free action instead of a move action. He can make only one attempt to materialize the mind blade per round, however (if, for example, he must make a Will save to materialize it within a null psionics field).

The once per round limit applies only to making attempts to materialize. Out of a NPF the soulknife doesn't attempt to materialize, it simply does materialize.

The only use I can think of for the Multiple Throw ability is that it is supposed to be a standard action ability, sort of similar to Many shot without the penalties and the range limit.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Is that the way the bolded part works? I was under the impression from reading the Psychic strike ability that it only applied the bonus once. Actually, reading it again, it just outright says it,

So this works one of two ways, and I think both are equally just "ok". Either you shape two short sword mind blades and then you can only charge a single psychic strike in to one of those blades, or you can charge two psychic strikes at the cost of two move actions. If you consider that both short swords are the same mind blade, just shaped differently, I feel like the first is true because you can't charge the same mind blade more than once. If you consider that the mind blade is actually two separate mind blades when shaped this way, I feel like the second is true.

OP, I'm going to double down on my recommendation (and agree with Fizban on recommendations too) that you just take a level of Fighter or two, and then use Soulknife to do all the rest. It gives you plenty to be a decent combatant in most situations, and frees up a lot of wealth for other items that you can use (better armor and defensive items, for example).

Here's an ask that your DM may approve though. Ask them to look at the Soulbow prestige class from Complete Psionic, if they can. It is Soulknife for archers and, in my opinion, a better option for a "default" soulknife. Just like Soulknife, it isn't a manifesting class, so no powers or anything to be concerned with. It lets you be wholly Dex dependent, which helps alleviate that AC issue, you're not a melee character (again, alleviates the AC issue) and it plays nicely with all of the rapidshot/manyshot feats because of the fact that it is a free action to shape the mind arrow. Now, OP I realize that you said "assume no" which I have done to this point, but this seems in-line with what your DM has outlined in their world, and would be able to be implemented in time however the DM sees fit (as it is a prestige class). It doesn't rock the boat for what they've already outlined and it doesn't require any narrative changes on the part of the DM's worldbuilding either. Just something to think about that might be worthwhile reaching out to your DM about, because I think there's lots of value added with Soulbow.

Complete Psionic actually clarifies how Psychic Strike works when the Mind blade is split:

DUAL MIND BLADES AND PSYCHIC STRIKE
If a soulknife chooses to shape his mind blade by splitting it into two blades, each separate blade is able to hold a psychic strike as long as the soulknife spends a separate move action to empower each blade with psychic strike.

One thing they never bothered to clarify is that by RAW you can materialize multiple Mind Blades without splitting them. They left it to the implication of the Shape Mind Blade ability which doesn't help in this regard. Thanks to Free Draw, I can't see any real benefit to actually splitting your Mind Blade (the double weapon feats don't make you split the bonus either).

Soulknife already has access to light armor, heavy shields, simple weapons, and their mind blade. So they aren't squishy and likely won't use a two-handed weapon until level 5 when they can shape mind blade into a bastard sword. If you aren't going to use your mind blade, you might as well just be a psychic warrior. You also get a really good cast of class skills that are hampered by ACP. If one really wants those fighter levels, psychic warrior levels grant extra power points, extra powers, the same proficiencies, and bonus feats, for the cost of a +1 BAB and d8 HD.

tyckspoon

2021-07-15, 02:36 PM

Deep Impact + Power Attack + Spirited Charge is somewhat compelling.

Soulknife 6/Fighter 4 with feats:

1 Psionic Weapon
3 Psionic Meditation
6. Power Attack
Fighter 1 Mounted combat
Fighter 2 Ride-by-Attack
9. Deep Impact
Fighter 4 Spirited Charge

Your initial spirited charge would deal (16(two-handed power attack)+2(enhance)+1d10(medium bastard sword)+Str*1.5)*2+1d8(psychic strike)+1d4(Psychokinetic). If you are an wood elf or half orc for the +2 str bonus, then by level 10 your strength could be an adjusted 26 = 20 (base)+2(levels)+4(enhance) for a +8 Str bonus, yielding an expected 78 damage. That's reasonable at level 10.

While this works, Soulknife doesn't actually contribute much of anything to it - you'd be just as well off being a straight Fighter and just eating another feat or playing a naturally psionic race to get access to the Psionic feats, and being able to use a lance for Spirited Charge would more than make up for not getting Psychic Strike damage.

I would suggest going with Lucky for your mindblade enhancement - since you're going all in on one big strike, getting a reroll on that should greatly improve the reliability of it. (And if you can convince your DM that remanifesting your weapon counts as a new weapon, or Darg can convince you that you can just make a bunch of extra Mind Blades and do the drop-and-swap thing, then you can get the reroll on every attack.. which would actually be a thing Soulknife would enable, because the only other way to do that would be abusing the crap out of Morphing weapons and ammunition pricing. Plus if you can get multiple Mind Blades you can have them all precharged with Psychic Strike, which.. honestly bonus damage + reroll on every melee attack you make is legit Pretty Good for Core material.)

If you extend this to high levels and get Knife To The Soul, this actually kind of looks impressive - since Knife To The Soul no longer deals in dice of damage, the mental ability damage should get multiplied by crits/Spirited Charge. Whacking things reliably with up to 10 points of no-save mental ability damage can cripple or remove a lot of threats. Shame about the narrow targeting ability, tho - 'living non-mindless and subject to Mental Affecting' becomes a worse and worse group of subjects the higher level you go.

Arkhios

2021-07-15, 03:25 PM

We are talking about manifester levels, the equivalent of caster levels for spellcasters. The soulknife isn't a manifesting class, but it is a psionic class:

This means if you have the Hidden Talent feat, which gives you the ability to manifest, a level 20 soulknife can manifest those 1st level powers as a level 20 manifester. This is for the hidden talent feat specifically; it also mentions that the psionic class levels are used to determine manifester level.

Ah, but here's the thing. Hidden Talent ≠ Wild Talent.
Soulknife gets the latter, not the former, as a bonus feat.

So, a soulknife, while certainly a psionic class, is not a manifester class by default, so it's kind of a moot point. Yes, the rules are a bit confusing, but the class mentions zilch about soulknives being able to manifest anything whatsoever. In fact, it actually implies the opposite in the description for the class bonus feat: Wild Talent. Materializing a mind blade is not same as manifesting a power. It's simply a supernatural ability, that's all.

D&D is all about the "specific superceding general" –rule. Manifester levels being equal to your levels in psionic class is the general rule, which applies to them all, except when it doesn't, as is the case with soulknives.

And, since Hidden Talent is from a web enhancement, it's beyond my reach by default considering my predisposed restrictions, there's 50:50 chance I won't get it, even if I wanted. 50% chance isn't same as 100% chance.
Apparently I was wrong. For some reason I hadn't noticed the feat before, but it sure seems to be in XPH. My bad. Still, it's not a given I would get it instead of Wild Talent, because the setting is not a high-psionic one.

Psyren

2021-07-15, 04:01 PM

Are web articles permitted? Cuz then we can get you hidden talent and a manifester level

No need for web article as Hidden Talent is in the XPH itself. The tricky part though is that the best 1st-level powers are not in the XPH.

Well, FWIW, so far I know that other characters in our group will be something along these lines:

A cleric of a Sun deity aiming to focus on spellcasting.
A gnoll melee-something.
A rogue/sorcerer/arcane trickster.

However, it doesn't really matter to me much, whether my character is viable compared to them. I'm more concerned about a potential viability in a vacuum, because I'm decidedly against the whole classic "expected" group composition (cleric, fighter, rogue, wizard).

"Compared to them" does matter though unless you're playing a pre-written module with fixed challenges. The reason being that if they are significantly stronger than you, either the GM will (consciously or unconsciously) scale the challenges up to match them which risks crushing you, or he risks them being supremely bored and your build is unlikely to matter anyway.

Having said that, as long as your cleric and AT don't optimize too hard then you should be at least within striking distance on a round-by-round basis. It's not like you're playing alongside a Warblade or Totemist after all.

The big issue of course is that you're a martial class who ends up -5 behind other martial classes and with fewer iteratives. You do save wealth on your scaling weapon, but being core only, there aren't many productive places for you to allocate that wealth TO, even if you are given access to a magic-mart of some kind. Your bonus damage mechanic is also at odds with your action economy, and drops off in usefulness as you encounter more mind-affecting-immune foes. The class is just clunky as written overall, but within the restrictions you've laid out we might be able to get you from awful to merely bad or weak.

And, since Hidden Talent is from a web enhancement, it's beyond my reach by default considering my predisposed restrictions, there's 50:50 chance I won't get it, even if I wanted. 50% chance isn't same as 100% chance.

As I covered above, Hidden Talent is in the XPH itself, no web enhancement needed. See the sidebar on page 67. Because it's a sidebar, it's not included in the SRD, but it's in the actual book.

Morphic tide

2021-07-15, 04:29 PM

Hmm... Double-checking the Mounted rules, it's a Free Action to guide the mount if it's trained for combat, which takes six weeks and a DC 25 Handle Animal check, costing 1,000 GP if you have a professional trainer to do it for you. It's very important to look at mountable cohorts, as a cohort will be able to gain levels explicitly without taking away XP from the party. The main targets for this are the Pegasus, for being just Horse+, the slightly squishier Giant Eagle, as it has Evasion, and later the Griffon when you're level 12, in which case you need a +2 Charisma bonus, as they have Pounce and Rake for a sizable amount of Charge damage.

All three of these are intelligent, with the Giant Eagle and Pegasus having an average 10 while the Griffon is docked to 5, so they can take actual class levels as your Leadership score and character level increase. The three classes to look at for Core-only are Fighter, Barbarian, and Monk. Fighter and Monk are dip material for AC and feats, with which you want your mount to take depending on how much you're willing to spend for bonuses on the mount and your prioritization of movement, while Barbarian's just raw brute-force meat to reduce survivability issues.

If you ever want a Griffon mount, do not take Ride-By Attack, as it's mutually exclusive with the Rake-Pounce. And definitely give it a level of Monk for the iteratives, since it's Pouncing to actually apply the iteratives, before you ride the full-BAB train of Fighter/Barb. And don't be shy about having your mounts actually use Combat Expertise for the AC, you're not likely to have the budget to spare for "proper" protective equipment so every drop you can save by loading into Mount feats is a significant help.

If you are wanting Ride-By Attack, remember that Flyby Attack is any Standard Action, so when you don't have quite the positioning for a Charge you can make a move then have your mount Feign them before unloading a non-Charge Psychic Strike against a Flatfooted target. Which, as a Bluff check vs. Sense Motive, may necessitate a Rogue level. Which would make the Griffon's damage start to be getting a bit busted.

Finally, about the ban on actual Manifesting: Does your table recognize that you cannot augment a Power to a PP cost past your Manifester Level, and that Metapsionic feats expend Psionic Focus to require passing a DC 20 full-round Concentration check before using another? Because missing those two restrictions is apparently a common reason for mistaking Psionics for being more powerful than decently-run spellcasters.

The Psion only gets two more Powers than the Sorcerer gets spells, which takes one 2nd-level Power Known and end up with up to 5 different 9ths if you even care about five 9ths, and those Powers don't include anywhere near the depth of fiat answers because Psionics doesn't have bulk options summoning, the shapeshifting is specific to the Egoist, and the vast majority of the versatility advantage is really just compiling virtually identical effects into one option, with a lot of themes fragmented by Discipline-specialist. But the ultra-situational things and uncomfortably near universal answers that have spellcasters wreck campaigns just aren't there. And Wilder gets a freaking third of the Powers that a Sorcerer gets spells, again without anything like Shadow Illusion or Summon Monster for actually major breadth out of very limited Powers.

The only ones I can think of are Metamorphic Transfer looting Supernatural abilities from huge swaths of the books, and Reality Revision cheese. Nothing compared to what a Druid's spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally can get up to, or a Wizard who understands niche covering and gaming scroll purchases. It's a higher floor, but the ceiling when speaking of XPH only is pathetic compared to Core-only spellcasting, and it gets worse as you add splatbooks. Clearly, your table has not witnessed a Batman Wizard if they think Wilder is horribly overpowered. Psychic Warrior's definitely putting any other melee character but Druidzilla to shame in core-only, but that's because Core-only melee is garbage to the point of demanding build specialization for Clerics.

Troacctid

2021-07-15, 04:34 PM

Frankly, if you'll pardon my floccinaucinihilipilification, I don't think there's a viable soulknife build even outside of core. It's hot garbage, and ranks at the very bottom of the tier list as the worst standard class in the entire game. If I were forced to take it, I would leap into a standalone prestige class at the first opportunity and never look back.

No need for web article as Hidden Talent is in the XPH itself. The tricky part though is that the best 1st-level powers are not in the XPH.

[...]

As I covered above, Hidden Talent is in the XPH itself, no web enhancement needed. See the sidebar on page 67. Because it's a sidebar, it's not included in the SRD, but it's in the actual book.
The ACF that grants it as a bonus feat instead of Wild Talent is in a web enhancement.

tyckspoon

2021-07-15, 04:42 PM

Anthrowhale

2021-07-15, 07:54 PM

While this works, Soulknife doesn't actually contribute much of anything to it - you'd be just as well off being a straight Fighter and just eating another feat or playing a naturally psionic race to get access to the Psionic feats, and being able to use a lance for Spirited Charge would more than make up for not getting Psychic Strike damage.

I agree with this.

It's rather difficult to find something that a Soulknife is good at. Looking carefully, it seems like the only class trait which really stands out as useful over many levels is the Lucky magic item property which they can use every round and a free magic weapon. While that's nice, having an extra iterative attack is generally better.

Psyren

2021-07-15, 07:59 PM

The ACF that grants it as a bonus feat instead of Wild Talent is in a web enhancement.

That ACF is completely unnecessary because opting to use Hidden Talent replaces Wild Talent entirely.

daremetoidareyo

2021-07-15, 08:24 PM

That ACF is completely unnecessary because opting to use Hidden Talent replaces Wild Talent entirely.

That acf allows for multiple hidden talents so it’s not useless and the inclusion of wild talent isn’t totally overwritten in a campaign world that uses hidden talent: the 6 psionic houses in comp psi use alternative wild talent rules

Crake

2021-07-15, 08:30 PM

The soulknife isn't a manifesting class, but it is a psionic class

Where exactly is "psionic class" defined? I kinda take "psionic class" to mean a character capable of manifesting psionic powers, which the soulknife is not able to do.

Psyren

2021-07-15, 09:23 PM

That acf allows for multiple hidden talents so it’s not useless and the inclusion of wild talent isn’t totally overwritten in a campaign world that uses hidden talent: the 6 psionic houses in comp psi use alternative wild talent rules

1) The CPsi rule is a variant, and is irrelevant anyway since he is only allowed XPH.
2) You can't take Hidden Talent more than once.
3) The web enhancement, even if you rule it is somehow helpful, is ALSO irrelevant because he is only allowed to use XPH. So continually suggesting it is not helpful.

Troacctid

2021-07-15, 09:50 PM

Where exactly is "psionic class" defined? I kinda take "psionic class" to mean a character capable of manifesting psionic powers, which the soulknife is not able to do.
"The four psionic classes, in the order they’re presented in this chapter, are [psion, psychic warrior, soulknife, and wilder]." Page 17.

vasilidor

2021-07-15, 11:12 PM

ask if you can use the pathfinder version.

Arkhios

2021-07-15, 11:26 PM

The three classes to look at for Core-only are Fighter, Barbarian, and Monk. Fighter and Monk are dip material for AC and feats, with which you want your mount to take depending on how much you're willing to spend for bonuses on the mount and your prioritization of movement, while Barbarian's just raw brute-force meat to reduce survivability issues.

Sadly our DM doesn't allow tailor-made cohorts. The only things we get to decide are race, class, and alignment. Everything else is done by the DM. Suggesting a prestige class is walking on a thin line towards grey area. Cohort multiclass builds for nothing but optimization are out of question.

Alternatively, if there is an npc we've already met that is friendly towards our group, and suitable to be taken as a cohort, we may choose to take them instead.

Finally, about the ban on actual Manifesting: Does your table recognize that you cannot augment a Power to a PP cost past your Manifester Level, and that Metapsionic feats expend Psionic Focus to require passing a DC 20 full-round Concentration check before using another? Because missing those two restrictions is apparently a common reason for mistaking Psionics for being more powerful than decently-run spellcasters.

Yes, we are aware. Overchannel and Talented are a thing, however, even considering Psionic Focus mechanic. The real issue is how several powers very clearly implied as psionic versions of traditional spells are just flat out better (such as Dispel Psionics vs Dispel Magic).
Another case are the disparity between some energy powers that break the norm in how their save DC's are calculated as compared to spells or even other similar powers. For example, energy stun or energy missiles have their DC increase for EVERY augment point while others increase by every TWO augment points. I realize these are relatively easy to fix, by house ruling, and we have discussed about it, but for the time being, there has been no conclusion whether the ban will be lifted or not.

Frankly, if you'll pardon my floccinaucinihilipilification, I don't think there's a viable soulknife build even outside of core. It's hot garbage, and ranks at the very bottom of the tier list as the worst standard class in the entire game. If I were forced to take it, I would leap into a standalone prestige class at the first opportunity and never look back.

Luckily I'm not forced (if you don't count myself always trying to come up with something different and/or weird to bamboozle my co-players, half of whom are relatively new to D&D).

I have not set my mind at absolutely playing a soulknife, I was merely curious if someone here already knows of any possible build or builds that could fit within these parameters.

In case someone is interested, I have another idea that involves a bit of druid and a bit more of monk for shenanigans involving produce flame, as well as grappling, improved trip, and knock-down, which is quite a strong competitor as my next character.

Particle_Man

2021-07-15, 11:57 PM

Arkhios

2021-07-16, 12:09 AM

Soul Knife gets speed of thought, and while other classes get psionic feats, it likely would be just you that actually bothers.

Up the Walls is a kind of "cool beans" thing to do. Combined with Speed of Thought it can give you some situational advantages, both in combat and out of it.

I wasn't aware that Lucky could be used more than once a day, even by a Soul Knife. Has there been a ruling on that wrt the Soulknife's Mind Blade enhancements?

FWIW, in the other character idea I mentioned above, I did actually consider taking wild talent as well as speed of thought and mental leap, and make it my priority to keep Jump at the maximum ranks at all times.

Yeah, at least in the SRD, the description for Lucky clearly states once per day, as seen below (emphasis mine)

A lucky weapon offers a second chance at success. Once per day, the wielder can reroll a failed attack roll (whether a single attack or one in a series of multiple attacks) as a free action. The rerolled attack uses the same bonuses or penalties as the missed roll.

....Unless people are reading that whenever you materialize the blade, any enhancements are "renewed" and "reset", in which case it might make some sense, though I doubt that's RAI.

Ha! As suspected, it's not even RAW.

The weapon ability or abilities remain the same every time the soulknife materializes his mind blade (unless he decides to reassign its abilities; see below). The ability or abilities apply to any form the mind blade takes, including the use of the shape mind blade or bladewind class abilities.

A soulknife can reassign the ability or abilities he has added to his mind blade. To do so, he must first spend 8 hours in concentration. After that period, the mind blade materializes with the new ability or abilities selected by the soulknife.

The act of rematerializing does not reset the enhancement, because as written, the weapon ability or abilities remain the same every time the soulknife materializes his mind blade. Same as in the very same which ability you have already expended.

Darg

2021-07-16, 12:10 AM

Plus if you can get multiple Mind Blades you can have them all precharged with Psychic Strike, which.. honestly bonus damage + reroll on every melee attack you make is legit Pretty Good for Core material.)

The issue is how much you can hold in a hand? I mean we could play around with the wording of "unless he intends to throw it," but that would be stretching things even further than the rematerializing lucky weapon trick; which no questions asked works with the bladewind ability (no need to reimbue your psychic strike either).

Honestly though, Psychic Strike is not worth much without access to CPsi for mind cleave and mind empowerment. For more fun, get gloves of the balanced hand and dual strike. Because it is a single attack, both weapons benefit from mind cleave and empowerment. The same could be said of cleave. A one level dip into illumine soul can also be pretty nasty depending on the interpretation of the class' Psychic Strike ability. At the very least a 1 level dip doubles your base bonus +1d8 Psychic strike damage for +5d8 at level 8 and the ability to use it on the undead along with adding ghost touch to the special abilities list of your mind blade. Though these aren't "core" so aren't really helpful here.

Core only Soulknife is as viable as a core sword and board fighter.

I wasn't aware that Lucky could be used more than once a day, even by a Soul Knife. Has there been a ruling on that wrt the Soulknife's Mind Blade enhancements?

Yeah, at least in the SRD, the description for Lucky clearly states once per day, as seen below (emphasis mine)

....Unless people are reading that whenever you materialize the blade, any enhancements are "renewed" and "reset", in which case it might make some sense, though I doubt that's RAI.

Soulknife is left with pretty minimal clarification for how the class works. As written, you are creating a new weapon every time you materialize your mind blade. If Lucky is tied to the feature instead of the materialized weapons, then you only have one use even if you split your mind blade or use the bladewind ability. I doubt that is RAI either. Based on the wording of bladewind and shape mind blade, each identical blade/fragment functions identically to the regular blade. So each would benefit from lucky separately.

As a move action, a soulknife can create a semisolid blade composed of psychic energy distilled from his own mind.

The blade can be broken (it has hardness 10 and 10 hit points); however, a soulknife can simply create another on his next move action.

Alternatively, a soulknife can split his mind blade into two identical short swords, suitable for fighting with a weapon in each hand. (The normal penalties for fighting with two weapons apply.) However, both mind blades have an enhancement bonus 1 lower than the soulknife would otherwise create with a single mind blade. For example, a 12th-level soulknife normally creates a single +3 mind blade, but he could use this ability to instead materialize two +2 mind blades.

Each fragment functions identically to the soulknife’s regular mind blade. (For example, if the mind blade were in the form of a +1 keen bastard sword, due to the soulknife’s mind blade enhancement and shape mind blade abilities, each fragment attacks and deals damage as a +1 keen bastard sword.)

Obviously, I personally think the evidence weighs much heavier in the direction of Mind Blade being a template from which you materialize copies to use. Either way you slice it though, the ability to use it costs you a minimum of 6 levels in soulknife and if you multiclass out at that point you are stuck with a +1 weapon permanently. When you compare it to a psychic warrior, it still doesn't match up with the versatility that manifesting brings.