OOTS #1240 - The Discussion Thread [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Rogan

2021-07-14, 08:23 AM

If this was a game, what kind of skill would Elan have to roll here? Bluff?
Very likely a Cha skill and we know he got enough of that.

I am reasonably sure that THIS solution is something nobody would guess, not even remotely.
And I like it. Both funny and effective, giving sunny some character and showing Elans growth. He was presented with a problem and managed to find a solution that played to his strengths, without outside help. He really got a long way from the times where V had to give him a step by step guide on the usage of his illusions.

Edit:

Also good work from Haley. She was fast to understand Elan and acted in the short moment that presented itself.

Blatt

2021-07-14, 08:24 AM

Does a Beholder blink, or does it wink?

MirEgal

2021-07-14, 08:25 AM

I really appreciate the icon choice for this thread.

dancrilis

2021-07-14, 08:26 AM

Nice comic - still leaves them with the question about shooting the nice beholder who has done nothing to them except look at them or doing something else.

Ruck

2021-07-14, 08:27 AM

Hooray! Storytelling is useful!

woweedd

2021-07-14, 08:34 AM

I think we keep forgetting that Elan is, in all likelihood, currently the most convincing human on the planet.

Brumagris

2021-07-14, 08:35 AM

Great strip, thanks Giant!

call me soft, but I found lovable the engagement between Elan and Sunny. Hoping it will build up from there towards a truce with Serini in next stripes

KorvinStarmast

2021-07-14, 08:37 AM

Elan being effective intentionally, kind of brings a tear to my eye. Once again, the blind squirrel found an acorn. This kind of effectiveness reminds me of the confusion cast on the frost giant lady (though not quite as funny) during a critical part of that fight, or the swinging by a rope to get Roy back into that fight. It is also a great use of Elan being true to who he is: a genuinely nice guy boosted by bard skills.

Thank you Giant; the cherry on top of this dessert for me was the gourmet chef, Belkar, making with the onion joke. Nice touch! :smallbiggrin:
(And also, the Haley is Smart theme rises to the fore again).

This is really a "magic is shut down so mundane skills can take the spotlight for once" scene, isn't it? Nice when the DM can manage that. :smallcool:

Too bad Belkar didn't catch on quickly enough; I would have loved a little Bloodfeast action but I guess we can't have everything in one strip.

Strip Title: Win.
Strip Smilie: Win
Lots to love about 1240.

Rogan

2021-07-14, 08:45 AM

SlashDash

2021-07-14, 08:46 AM

If this was a game, what kind of skill would Elan have to roll here? Bluff?
Perform actually. He isn't lying, he's trying to paint a mental image using oratory skills.

Sylian

2021-07-14, 08:57 AM

Elan sure has come a long way, he's such an important asset of the team these days (as is Belkar).

RMS Oceanic

2021-07-14, 08:57 AM

Oh, observation.
Haley had no problem at all shooting the arrow straight up to the ceiling. Last strip, her arrows where not flying straight when she shot Sereni.
I think this gives some credibility to the assumption that she has some protection online instead of the strange flightpath of her earlier arrows being caused by the distance.

I think it's more in the last comic she was aiming at an unseen foe and didn't aim properly, but shooting straight at the roof is straightforward.

Well looks like bl/winking isn't a free action.

danielxcutter

2021-07-14, 09:01 AM

I'm glad this isn't a "lol you can't do anything so my encounter's going to stomp you guys into the ground, suck it up assclowns" thing like half the fights in DStP were.

Worldsong

2021-07-14, 09:01 AM

Hats off to you Elan, for finding a solution to a problem which plays to your strengths and which is both creative and clever.

In the past, Elan would have required prompting from the rest of the party, so it's really nice to see such an explicit example of his growth as a character and an adventurer, in such a way that it's directly beneficial to the rest of the party.

2D8HP

2021-07-14, 09:03 AM

"monologue about cutting onions.
Chop, chop"

Oh I'm delighted!

danielxcutter

2021-07-14, 09:08 AM

Fyraltari

2021-07-14, 09:11 AM

Well looks like bl/winking isn't a free action.

This is such a creative, clever tactic that nevertheless doesn't eliminate the threat that I think any game master worth their salt would allow it.

b_jonas

2021-07-14, 09:11 AM

This is why we buy our servants from Grubwiggler. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0980.html) It avoids stupid complications in them, such as thinking for themselves or a robust imagination.

Dragonus45

2021-07-14, 09:12 AM

This is really a "magic is shut down so mundane skills can take the spotlight for once" scene, isn't it?

Yea, Beholders are pretty much here just for that sometimes. Same as golems.

Worldsong

2021-07-14, 09:13 AM

I'm also happy that, well, this encounter wasn't a meatgrinder like the Legion fight or the big events in DStP.

Oh, definitely. Situations where the good guys are outclassed may be good for building up tension but it's more interesting when both sides have cards they can play and it's not just the good guys scrambling to survive.

Schroeswald

2021-07-14, 09:21 AM

Elan for the win! Or at least the mile success!

InvisibleBison

2021-07-14, 09:24 AM

Perform actually. He isn't lying, he's trying to paint a mental image using oratory skills.

Bluff isn't only about lying. It can also be used to make someone react as you wish for a short time, which is exactly what's happening here. Perform, on the other hand, doesn't have any ability to influence people's behavior.

MReav

2021-07-14, 09:37 AM

Man, if Roy wasn't incapacitated, he might just be able to throw Belkar upwards out of the AM field (yeah, he doesn't have the Giant Strength, but between Roy's baseline 18 (or possibly more) strength and Belkar raging to boost his strength, and Belkar's own self-admitted 30 lbs lightness, they might be able to pull it off.

hagnat

2021-07-14, 09:40 AM

may i suggest one small change to this awesome comic ?

make ALL of the beholder's eyes blink, even the small ones :)
--
i was going to say "may i suggest EIGHT small changes", but you only show one small eye on the blinking panel ;)

Frozenstep

2021-07-14, 09:47 AM

Shining Wrath

2021-07-14, 09:48 AM

danielxcutter

2021-07-14, 09:55 AM

This is such a creative, clever tactic that nevertheless doesn't eliminate the threat that I think any game master worth their salt would allow it.

It does feel like the "DM" of the "game" has been growing as well, doesn't it? Back in the Legion fight, the Order got a literal army and three quasi-PCs dropped on them when they were half-dead and drained. In DStP, it really felt like the DM was getting his rocks off crushing the Order until he got bored with that/the enemies rolled badly.

As to how it feels the "DM's changed"? See below.

Oh, definitely. Situations where the good guys are outclassed may be good for building up tension but it's more interesting when both sides have cards they can play and it's not just the good guys scrambling to survive.

Oh, that's why I think the fights from UD and onward feel less killer DM-ish than the Legion fight or half the plot of DStP - because the Order can actually fight back. Really, the loss of the Dining Hall Battle feels more like the Order blew their rolls rather than the cards being maliciously stacked against them, and Hilgya's a much better done DMPC than Celia was since she wasn't an active excuse for the "DM" to mess with Haley and Belkar.

It feels like if this was a game, the DM kinda sucked ass for a few books and slowly got better.

Quizatzhaderac

2021-07-14, 09:56 AM

This is such a creative, clever tactic that nevertheless doesn't eliminate the threat that I think any game master worth their salt would allow it.To make up an explanation, I'd say the anti magic field requires a steady, continuous stare.

If it just effected everything the monster could see, an eye can easily track targets, and or reflexively switch several times a second.

Bluff isn't only about lying. It can also be used to make someone react as you wish for a short time, which is exactly what's happening here. Perform, on the other hand, doesn't have any ability to influence people's behavior.I'm going to second the perform verdict. Bluff makes the target believe something, and at no point did sunny believe there was real sand.

As for perform, if being good at "oratory" or "acting" doesn't involve being able to induce a strong mental image, I legitimately wouldn't know what the SRD means by those words.

InvisibleBison

2021-07-14, 09:58 AM

I'm going to second the perform verdict. Bluff makes the target believe something, and at no point did sunny believe there was real sand.

As for perform, if being good at "oratory" or "acting" doesn't involve being able to induce a strong mental image, I legitimately wouldn't know what the SRD means by those words.

A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm).

Cazero

2021-07-14, 10:14 AM

Perform, on the other hand, doesn't have any ability to influence people's behavior.
That kind of bull**** is the exact reason why RPGs are played with a game master.

gatemansgc

2021-07-14, 10:18 AM

elan, that was AWESOME.

also during that brief period of eye closing some air should have gotten into belkar's bag of holding so bloodfeast could breathe!

danielxcutter

2021-07-14, 10:28 AM

elan, that was AWESOME.

also during that brief period of eye closing some air should have gotten into belkar's bag of holding so bloodfeast could breathe!

Technically the air's cut off from the outside whether or not the magic's intact.

JoseB

2021-07-14, 10:40 AM

OK.

Who are you, and what have you done to Elan? :smallwink:

CountDVB

2021-07-14, 10:48 AM

Elan using that big Charisma score awesomely is quite a site to behold. And I suspect Sunny will become good friends with Elan

Pax_Chi

2021-07-14, 10:59 AM

I like the little detail of all of Sunny's eye-stalks turning to look at Serini when he tries to explain himself.

And nice move by Elan, showcasing his own creativity and how in synch he and Haley are. Without any verbal cues, she realizes immediately what Elan's up to and prepares accordingly.

Serini might have not done herself any favors by taking Roy out of the fight. True, he's got the highest damage dealing potential of the bunch, especially with magic gone, but Haley's an adaptable leader in her own right and what's more, she thinks like a rogue. She's got more of an insight into what Serini's tactics will be and how to exploit them.

Here's hoping the next comic is V, Durkon and Minrah come up with ways to contribute as well. Maybe V will come up with some mundane uses for their spell components, Durkon and Minrah can likely figure out that "wall" isn't stone, etc.

gatemansgc

2021-07-14, 11:00 AM

Ionathus

2021-07-14, 11:06 AM

Things I love about this strip:

Elan's awesome and devious monologue!
The opportunity for non-magic skills to shine!
The drama of watching a flame arrow leave the AM field.
Belkar, true to character, being not quite as quick thinking as Haley.

The pacing of this strip being dedicated to the arrow, which only removes darkness rather than causing lasting problems or damage for Serini/Sunny, makes me think this will be a fairly long battle with twists and turns aplenty.

Looking forward to seeing our dear nonmagic Stickers shine!

bunsen_h

2021-07-14, 11:08 AM

I'm reminded of Sib Machat's "Evil Eyeball" song (https://www.sibyllogy.com/share/the-evil-eyeball.mp3).

b_jonas

2021-07-14, 11:08 AM

Bluff isn't only about lying. It can also be used to make someone react as you wish for a short time, which is exactly what's happening here. Perform, on the other hand, doesn't have any ability to influence people's behavior. Unclear. The potion of glibness in #767 has a label saying “+30 to Bluff” (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html) and it “only works on things that aren't true” (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0774.html), so it seems like Bluff is only about lies in the OotS universe.

Quizatzhaderac

2021-07-14, 11:11 AM

A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm).Sure: reacts to your feint, or other attempt (verbal or otherwise) to make the target believe what you want.

The problem with your quote snipping is that the word "bluff" is at the top of the page, and it's obvious that the page's contents should be interpreted as having something to do with bluffing.

D&D is a roleplaying game, which means the narrative spirit of the rules should be considered when possible.

If you want to bluff someone into a reaction, you need to make them believe something. If you're feinting, it's obvious that you're convincing the target theat you are attacking one way, while really planning to attack another.

By analogy, the diplomacy fails to explicitly indicate that can't just stare silently at somebody for a minute, or say "I'm here to kill our comrade and take their stuff, help me." But when still know what the word "diplomancy" means.

Windscion

2021-07-14, 11:13 AM

Unclear. The potion of glibness in #767 has a label saying “+30 to Bluff” (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html) and it “only works on things that aren't true” (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0774.html), so it seems like Bluff is only about lies in the OotS universe.

That was, methinks, a throwaway line to explain her not telling her Dad that Elan is a good guy, and to underscore that what she actually said to her Dad was a hugemongous whopper. (I.e., "you didn't screw up my life.")

denthor

2021-07-14, 11:13 AM

I think we keep forgetting that Elan is, in all likelihood, currently the most convincing human on the planet.

See comic #13 for why this worked so effectively.

gatemansgc

2021-07-14, 11:20 AM

I really appreciate the icon choice for this thread.

oh that was definitely on purpose. i usually don't even look at those! the giant is awesome.

2.5 cats

2021-07-14, 11:20 AM

Great comic!

I wonder if Serini is going to run out of crossbow bolts at some point. Lots of misses on Haley, and it seems to be her backup weapon. Maybe they have a truce once she's out of ammunition?

MartianInvader

2021-07-14, 11:21 AM

I can't wait to see Roy's reaction later when they tell him how Elan saved the day.

Reboot

2021-07-14, 11:42 AM

Cazero

2021-07-14, 11:50 AM

Belkar can throw rocks at Sunny. It might get Serini mauled by a tiger in a few years.

danielxcutter

2021-07-14, 11:54 AM

In terms of helping the Order - is this just about Haley's bow? With the magic off, V is "a fragile pointy-eared monkey (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html)", and the rest are basically melee-only (plus, Durkon & Minrah could see anyway). With the possible exception of better chances to dodge bolts, can anyone else do anything they couldn't already?

Well, it's better than pissing in the dark that's for sure. Also Belkar's pretty decent at throwing daggers.

sillymel

2021-07-14, 11:58 AM

Well looks like bl/winking isn't a free action.

My guess is what Haley did would work by using a readied action mechanically? Not sure if that can interrupt a free action or not, though.

Perform, on the other hand, doesn't have any ability to influence people's behavior.

Sure it does. What is Performing for money, if not using the Perform skill to influence people into giving you money? (Disclaimer: I only know of Performing for money from 5e, so I don’t know whether it exists in 3.5e or not.)

chanman

2021-07-14, 11:59 AM

A bard using the power of words, and words alone, to solve a problem. That's well played, well role-played, and good story telling.

And Serini seems worried - as well she should be.

EDIT: She should be worried because action economy is a thing that matters a lot in D&D. There's going to be a whole lot of people doing creative things, even if they can't cast spells.

I was going to point out that she's letting either tunnel vision or sunk cost fallacy cloud her actions - After seeing Haley's reflex dodge the first couple shots, she should have shifted to taking down the supporting party members. Making sure the casters go stay down in case something happens to their AM should have been a higher priority, and Serini's wasted enough darts/bolts on Haley that she could have taken down half of the remaining party members instead.

Bellerophon

2021-07-14, 12:01 PM

Lord Torath

2021-07-14, 12:20 PM

"monologue about cutting onions.
Chop, chop"!:roy: "Belkar, save the puns for Elan!" Yes, I know he's unconscious, but that's probably what he'd say.

Aside from Sunny talking about their powerful imagination, I think that was my favorite part!

Personally, I think this is Elan's battle to win. It needs to be won with words, not blades.

DLcygnet

2021-07-14, 12:43 PM

Could it be a somewhat unconventional intimidate (Demoralize Opponent) check?

It's more like a feint or diversion in combat. That sort of situation is fully covered by the bluff skill (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm) since you can use it to cause a diversion and even hide after the bluff works. Except instead of saying "What's that?" and pointing to the ceiling, the bard tells a story and gets a blink. Plus, Elan is a Dashing Swordsman (https://oots.fandom.com/wiki/Dashing_Swordsman) and should have at least 9 or more ranks in Bluff. Haley stole the show with his potion of glibness, it'd be a shame if Elan never got to show off his bluff skills.

Or his Perform (comedy) ranks.

"There's a shortage of perfect jests in the world. T'would be a shame to lose yours."

Anyway, great strip! Loved every panel, title, and winky face.
I never knew I wanted a set of beholder emojis until now.

Kantaki

2021-07-14, 12:52 PM

That was downright evil.:smalleek:
My respect Elan.
Now excuse me, it still feels like there's something in my eyes.

bunsen_h

2021-07-14, 12:54 PM

I can't wait to see Roy's reaction later when they tell him how Elan saved the day.

They've both grown quite a bit. Roy has asked Elan for advice recently. At this point, I think it's possible that Roy wouldn't be surprised by such news.

Precure

2021-07-14, 01:03 PM

By the course of that speech, I was expecting Elan or Haley to put some dirt in Sunny's eye.

danielxcutter

2021-07-14, 01:16 PM

They've both grown quite a bit. Roy has asked Elan for advice recently. At this point, I think it's possible that Roy wouldn't be surprised by such news.

Maybe not shocked, but still more impressive/unexpected than, say, Durkon or Haley. At least to Roy.

Psyren

2021-07-14, 01:36 PM

Blue Dragon

2021-07-14, 01:38 PM

How fun is to be fully competent, Elan?

Steveio

2021-07-14, 01:38 PM

Unclear. The potion of glibness in #767 has a label saying “+30 to Bluff” (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html) and it “only works on things that aren't true” (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0774.html), so it seems like Bluff is only about lies in the OotS universe.

Glibness adds +30 to Bluff, but it only when using Bluff to make people believe things that aren't true. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glibness.htm)

The same page here also lists examples of other uses of Bluff (which the spell doesn't help with), one of which is to communicate a hidden message via innuendo, which is presumably what Elan is doing here.

Fergie0044

2021-07-14, 01:39 PM

In terms of helping the Order - is this just about Haley's bow? With the magic off, V is "a fragile pointy-eared monkey (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html)", and the rest are basically melee-only (plus, Durkon & Minrah could see anyway). With the possible exception of better chances to dodge bolts, can anyone else do anything they couldn't already?

Assuming I was a member of the order and not an omniscience viewer of their adventures, turning the lights back on seems like a good first step! How are they to know it won't do a lot to help?

CountDVB

2021-07-14, 01:43 PM

In terms of helping the Order - is this just about Haley's bow? With the magic off, V is "a fragile pointy-eared monkey (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html)", and the rest are basically melee-only (plus, Durkon & Minrah could see anyway). With the possible exception of better chances to dodge bolts, can anyone else do anything they couldn't already?

True, though V is still pretty intelligent and they could thus probably come up with something to figure it out. Plus, Minrah might surprise us. She IS a Fighter after all as well as a Cleric so she could have a couple tricks up her sleeve that someone like Durkon may not have

Lo'Tek

2021-07-14, 01:47 PM

By the course of that speech, I was expecting Elan or Haley to put some dirt in Sunny's eye.

by panel 3/4 i thought Elan assumed Sunny is from the South, which isn't far fetched near the north pole, and was inducing home sickness, tears and blinking. Imagine sand in your eyes feels almost blunt ^^

The "you know how robust my imagination is" is a nice wink at the beho... multi-eyed-monster fluff.

KorvinStarmast

2021-07-14, 01:59 PM

That kind of bull**** is the exact reason why RPGs are played with a game master. In the ideal case, yes.

I just noticed that in panel 2, Serini loosed a bolt (it has left the rail of her hand crossbow) but I didn't see it in any of the other panels. (We see her unloaded hand crossbow in panel 5).
I wonder where it went. I have a mental image of a dart bouncing off of Minrah's armor, off screen.

Jaxzan Proditor

2021-07-14, 02:27 PM

Ugh, now I have the urge to blink hard too. Too bad Belkar still doesn’t have a chance to unleash the beast here.

ShinigamiKenji

2021-07-14, 02:36 PM

Hmm, both the casters were suspiciously out of the strip... Wonder what they did in the blink of an eye (pun completely intended)

danielxcutter

2021-07-14, 02:39 PM

Hmm, both the casters were suspiciously out of the strip... Wonder what they did in the blink of an eye (pun completely intended)

Considering what AMFs do, "be useless" seems legit.

jpnuar1

2021-07-14, 02:43 PM

Elan being effective intentionally, kind of brings a tear to my eye.

Oh, I see what you did there. :biggrin: If we were in Erfworld, I'd tip that pun a schmucker.

Arkain

2021-07-14, 03:12 PM

Bloodfeast when? Chop chop, let's go :smallamused:

KorvinStarmast

2021-07-14, 03:40 PM

Bloodfeast when? Chop chop, let's go :smallamused: With Bloodfeast, it's chomp chomp. :smallbiggrin:

gatemansgc

2021-07-14, 03:41 PM

Technically the air's cut off from the outside whether or not the magic's intact.

i would have to assume this has been THOROUGHLY discussed since bloodfeast was put in the bag in the first place? i only stop by to read a few pages of discussion and contribute a bit. o.o

JSSheridan

2021-07-14, 03:53 PM

Thanks Giant!

Doug Lampert

2021-07-14, 04:11 PM

It's more like a feint or diversion in combat. That sort of situation is fully covered by the bluff skill (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm) since you can use it to cause a diversion and even hide after the bluff works. Except instead of saying "What's that?" and pointing to the ceiling, the bard tells a story and gets a blink. Plus, Elan is a Dashing Swordsman (https://oots.fandom.com/wiki/Dashing_Swordsman) and should have at least 9 or more ranks in Bluff. Haley stole the show with his potion of glibness, it'd be a shame if Elan never got to show off his bluff skills.

Or his Perform (comedy) ranks.

"There's a shortage of perfect jests in the world. T'would be a shame to lose yours."

Anyway, great strip! Loved every panel, title, and winky face.
I never knew I wanted a set of beholder emojis until now.

That's a fan made page you're linking to for Elan to have bluff. It's not official, it doesn't say anything about what Elan's skills are in the comic. It says, somewhere, there is a fan who cared enough to write a prestige class based on the comic and that fan thinks it needs nine ranks of bluff. It says nothing about what Rich Burlew thinks it needs or about what was actually in the fictional third party splat that Julian found the class in.

wingnutx

2021-07-14, 04:27 PM

Elan has true grit.

WanderingMist

2021-07-14, 04:53 PM

Bluff isn't only about lying. It can also be used to make someone react as you wish for a short time, which is exactly what's happening here. Perform, on the other hand, doesn't have any ability to influence people's behavior.

Yes, it does? An entertaining performance is going to cause people to stop, stare, applaud, cry, or even attempt to join in themselves. The "make someone react as you wish" bit for Bluff is clearly implying that it can be used for threats and extortion, not evoking mental images through a well-crafted story or reminiscnce.

LookieLouE1707

2021-07-14, 04:57 PM

Well, it's better than pissing in the dark that's for sure. Also Belkar's pretty decent at throwing daggers.

Or he could just throw Mr. Scruffy. I expect a cat to the eyeball would have the required effect without escalating the conflict unnecessarily.

RatedArgh

2021-07-14, 05:26 PM

My DM would have realized that both bluff & perform have a likely chance to get that result and then asked me to roll whichever is highest.

TheNecrocomicon

2021-07-14, 05:28 PM

Well, that's the way to do it. Be a mote in the beholder's eye.

I can only hope that the Rule of Drama doesn't immediately dictate that Haley promptly gets taken down by the next bolt(s) Serini fires as soon as she regains her composure and the Order suddenly have no ranged combatants left aside from a dagger-throwing halfling. Well, at least they're no longer effectively blind for as many rounds as it takes for the arrow to burn out or be extinguished.

i would have to assume this has been THOROUGHLY discussed since bloodfeast was put in the bag in the first place? i only stop by to read a few pages of discussion and contribute a bit. o.o

I'm sure that more than enough pages of pedantry have been wasted on the topic already. It's more than reasonable that as a very small lizard, one that's asleep if not hibernating, the air within the bag could last quite a long time and much longer than it would for a humanoid occupant.

Of course, all this is kind of moot by the fact that whenever Bloodfeast is removed from the bag, the plot will dictate whether or not they are still alive or dead of suffocation and we all just have to wait to find out, RAW mechanics be damned.

My DM would have realized that both bluff & perform have a likely chance to get that result and then asked me to roll whichever is highest.

This. "Take your pick between Bluff and Perform" (or Deception for later editions, I guess).

Krakius

2021-07-14, 05:31 PM

Reboot

2021-07-14, 05:48 PM

At this point I think Burlew's thought process is just "Guys, if I could afford to let the Order bring a dinosaur around on their adventures, I wouldn't have turned them into a lizard in the first place".

Well, Durkon or Elan could undo the Baleful Polymorph at any time (spell slots/bardic music performances permitting). They've deliberately chosen (in-continuity) not to turn him back into a dino, presumably for reasons of portability. 🤷

Rynjin

2021-07-14, 05:55 PM

If this was a game, what kind of skill would Elan have to roll here? Bluff?
Very likely a Cha skill and we know he got enough of that.

Interestingly, the closest thing I can think of would be a Combat Maneuver: Dirty Trick. One of the uses is to blind someone for 1 round, and you CAN fluff it however you want...

Petrocorus

2021-07-14, 06:46 PM

Of all the potential things that could save the day, a flare arrow (that Serini can extinguish in any number of ways as soon as her round is up) was the one you grabbed first?
Eh, hopefully there was some sleight of hand involved and Haley managed to pocket something else real quick.
Contrary to a Haversack, a BoH doesn't automatically gives you what your looking for, you actually have to search it.
Son, in-universe, Haley could just had grabbed the first useful item she found.

This is such a creative, clever tactic that nevertheless doesn't eliminate the threat that I think any game master worth their salt would allow it.

Rule-wise, a Not-Beholder can close or open his central eye once per round, so if he close it in a round, the AMF is down for a full round.
Of course, the Giant is not big on following the game's rules.

Once again, the blind squirrel found an acorn. This kind of effectiveness reminds me of the confusion cast on the frost giant lady (though not quite as funny) during a critical part of that fight, or the swinging by a rope to get Roy back into that fight. It is also a great use of Elan being true to who he is: a genuinely nice guy boosted by bard skills.
Elan was awesome in this fight. He was probably as efficient as he could be given the circumstances.

InvisibleBison

2021-07-14, 06:56 PM

Yes, it does? An entertaining performance is going to cause people to stop, stare, applaud, cry, or even attempt to join in themselves.

Sure, those are all fine things for a DM to decide that an entertaining performance can do. But the actual rules for the Perform skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/perform.htm) only allows you to "impress your audience" and earn some gold if you perform all day. I don't think I'd describe Sunny's reaction as "being impressed", so I don't see how Elan's actions could be a use of the Perform rules.

The "make someone react as you wish" bit for Bluff is clearly implying that it can be used for threats and extortion, not evoking mental images through a well-crafted story or reminiscnce.

Threats and extortion are the domain of Intimidate, not Bluff. I agree that Elan's actions aren't a good fit for Bluff; I just think they're an even worse fit for any other skill.

Lysbeth

2021-07-14, 07:01 PM

People here are discussing how Elan did that... could it be that he learned Craft Disturbing Mental Image (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0249.html) from the master himself?
Hmmm... unless he's Summoning Plot Recap (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0864.html) somehow. We don't know how it works at its most technical, but he could be drawing on it to supplement a detailed explanation. I'm calling it "summon" in reference to "Summon Plot Exposition" in comic #13, but I'm guessing it's not a spell, and is just Elan wackiness being wacky, as always.

What interests me is how vivid the representations are to the listeners. I guess this is the crux, whether we believe that he simply has the raw Charisma to make the Beholder imagine it all (which he might as well have), or that he's tapping into some... ability? feat? skill? whatever it is PCs tap into. I should open a rulebook to learn that, some day.

Feruk

2021-07-14, 07:34 PM

TRH

2021-07-14, 08:03 PM

So, BoH rules question - what would have happened if Haley had've been too slow and the AMF came back when she was rummaging in the bag? Would it just magically lop her hand off? If so, that explains why Haley didn't spend time hunting for more useful stuff.

I don't think that situation would come up much in an actual game because the game is supposed to be turn-based. You end your turn having withdrawn anything you were going to withdraw from the bag, and the AMF can only return after the end of your turn. But if it happened anyways, my guess is RAW has nothing to say, and most GMs in practice would rule that her hand would just get forced out of the bag without whatever she was looking for, but otherwise unharmed.

JessmanCA

2021-07-14, 08:05 PM

Oh my goodness

"I'm sorry! He was painting an evocative picture and you know how robust my imagination is!"

made me laugh harder at a webcomic than I have in a long time. Thanks

Kornaki

2021-07-14, 08:57 PM

Of course, all this is kind of moot by the fact that whenever Bloodfeast is removed from the bag, the plot will dictate whether or not they are still alive or dead of suffocation and we all just have to wait to find out, RAW mechanics be damned.

If Belkar pulls blood feast out of that bag and he's dead from suffocating, I will literally* eat my hat

*figuratively

Potatopeelerkin

2021-07-14, 09:26 PM

Wait, does this imply Sunny hasn't been blinking at all until now?

chy03001

2021-07-14, 09:41 PM

Elan has grown so much :')

Marsala

2021-07-14, 09:42 PM

Elan being effective intentionally, kind of brings a tear to my eye.
Looking forward to the onion monologue, got my tissues...
Thanks Giant!

Elan being effective intentionally is fine. Elan being CLEVER, though, that's a little scary. Nice to see, though!

BriarHobbit

2021-07-14, 11:21 PM

This comic is so good. Notice how the coloring changes when Sunny blinks. I hope that Elan can save the day by making a new friend. It would not surprise me if Sunny likes puppet shows, and Elan is a skilled bard. I wonder if V was able to fly out of the anti-magic zone during the short time that magic was restored. The Order needs to win this one.

F.Harr

2021-07-14, 11:51 PM

Oh, Elan, you done good. :)

Wizard_Lizard

2021-07-15, 12:59 AM

I really like seeing Elan get creative!!

woweedd

2021-07-15, 02:09 AM

I’d rule this arms Perform, myself. Yes, it’s against the strict letter of the skill, but I’d say crafting an evocative image via words would count as oral storytelling, in a sense.

Coat

2021-07-15, 02:32 AM

If this was a game, what kind of skill would Elan have to roll here? Bluff?

Perform.

And here we see that no anti-magic field is strong enough to suppress the magic of your imagination!

Libraries are freedom, kids.

Lemarc

2021-07-15, 06:14 AM

SlashDash

2021-07-15, 06:17 AM

They've both grown quite a bit. Roy has asked Elan for advice recently. At this point, I think it's possible that Roy wouldn't be surprised by such news.

The battle with the frost giants on the ship pretty much sealed the deal that Elan is a perfectly legitimate party member that knows what he is doing. As a reminder for #1060, Roy even says he just throws Elan a crumb by saying he could be somewhat useful in a fight which Elan rejects saying he has an even more important duty that would prevent the entire ship from crashing to which Roy agrees and is impressed by.

Elan is far from being the dumb useless blonde he was at the start of the comics that just messed things up.

Silent Wrangler

2021-07-15, 06:21 AM

Belkar, you're have ranks in both Profession(gourmet chef) and Craft (disturbing mental image).
It's not like you can't do it yourself.

TuringTest

2021-07-15, 06:43 AM

Also good work from Haley. She was fast to understand Elan and acted in the short moment that presented itself.

She certainly did. I understood Elan's tale as an undercover attempt to make Haley think of throwing dust from the ground into poor Sunny's unprotected eye.

Feruk

2021-07-15, 06:55 AM

Perform.

And here we see that no anti-magic field is strong enough to suppress the magic of your imagination!

Libraries are freedom, kids.

Libraries are great, though I'd argue that their utility is more shifting to non-book resources in some ways; academic libraries towards digital resources (journals, ebooks etc.) and their curation; public libraries less so, but still towards internet usage and community events to some extent.

With that said, this strip really is a shining example of something I can't understand whatsoever - when people tell stories, do people really feel things in this kind of fashion? I can accept that people have quasi hallucinations and can see/hear things in their mind, which sounds odd but really fits all the visualization stuff I'd assumed was metaphor. Having a running commentary in their heads is slightly harder to grok, but okay, we see it in films - it's not just a narrative device? Okay. And then you get stuff where people can feel - or quasi-feel - what's described, and it just seems so... strange. All I ever feel is what's here. How much of this is dramatic exaggeration?

Aphantasia does help explain why I don't get as invested in stories as other people, though it is odd how I've always been a big reader and seem to have been missing huge chunks of what people exist. I enjoy a good plot.

Fyraltari

2021-07-15, 07:15 AM

Libraries are great, though I'd argue that their utility is more shifting to non-book resources in some ways; academic libraries towards digital resources (journals, ebooks etc.) and their curation; public libraries less so, but still towards internet usage and community events to some extent.

With that said, this strip really is a shining example of something I can't understand whatsoever - when people tell stories, do people really feel things in this kind of fashion? I can accept that people have quasi hallucinations and can see/hear things in their mind, which sounds odd but really fits all the visualization stuff I'd assumed was metaphor. Having a running commentary in their heads is slightly harder to grok, but okay, we see it in films - it's not just a narrative device? Okay. And then you get stuff where people can feel - or quasi-feel - what's described, and it just seems so... strange. All I ever feel is what's here. How much of this is dramatic exaggeration?

Aphantasia does help explain why I don't get as invested in stories as other people, though it is odd how I've always been a big reader and seem to have been missing huge chunks of what people exist. I enjoy a good plot.

It's not about the story itself. It's about making sunny focus on their own eye. And the fact that they haven't blinked in a while. It's like asking somebody how they like to rest their tongues. You don't usually think about it but you suddenly do and you can't really ignore the sensory input of your tongue until something else takes your mind of it.

Edit: to clarify, Sunny's eye was already dry but that was easy to ignore until Elan kept reminding them of it.

Athas

2021-07-15, 07:17 AM

Great strip really enjoyed it.

Does a Beholder blink, or does it wink?

I think given it has eleven eyes it may undecaink

Bluff isn't only about lying. It can also be used to make someone react as you wish for a short time, which is exactly what's happening here. Perform, on the other hand, doesn't have any ability to influence people's behavior.

Well it must have some influence over people. Otherwise whats the point?

Mechanically do you ever need to roll two categories?

I can't wait to see Roy's reaction later when they tell him how Elan saved the day.
Will he even remember it though? Isn't there amnesia stuff in the darts?

Now she can see to shoot him in the eye though. That should be enough for the elaborate turnaround.

I really hope this isn't the way the strip goes. Sunny seems childlike to me and heir not trying to hurt the order.

Elan has true grit.

Eye see what you did there.

Fyraltari

2021-07-15, 07:20 AM

Will he even remember it though? Isn't there amnesia stuff in the darts?

No, that's still brewing in Serini's cauldron back with the paladins. This is presumably some more of that tranquilizer she used on them.

Shining Wrath

2021-07-15, 07:24 AM

The best use of V's time right now is probably trying to administer a potion to Roy and wake him up. The rest of them need to focus on ranged weapons and take the halfling out.

Fyraltari

2021-07-15, 07:26 AM

The best use of V's time right now is probably trying to administer a potion to Roy and wake him up. The rest of them need to focus on ranged weapons and take the halfling out.

What kind of potions would wake him up though? Concentrated coffeine? Or are there any general "antipoison" potion? More importantly, do they have any not in the Bags of Holding?

danielxcutter

2021-07-15, 07:27 AM

And in case it wasn't clear, potions are magic as well.

TuringTest

2021-07-15, 07:36 AM

Libraries are great, though I'd argue that their utility is more shifting to non-book resources in some ways; academic libraries towards digital resources (journals, ebooks etc.) and their curation; public libraries less so, but still towards internet usage and community events to some extent.

Aside from other novel activities that can be used to expand their usefulness, the primary utility of libraries in a digital information era is as backup storage in case some catastrophe of civilization leaves us without computers. I'm saddened when civil servants don't get that and proceed to strip libraries of their physical contents, even going as far as destroying the books.

Aphantasia does help explain why I don't get as invested in stories as other people, though it is odd how I've always been a big reader and seem to have been missing huge chunks of what people exist. I enjoy a good plot.

If you enjoy the plot, I'd say you're still getting the main part of the enjoyment, which is the thrill of the ride and the anticipation of what comes next. From what little I know of aphantasia, you may be missing out on the special effects. It's certainly fun to accompany the story with a detailed display of beautiful decorative imagery, but you're not missing the essence of the narrative, which is to empathize with the imagined lives of the protagonists.

Edit:
P.S.- The visualizations aren't really as strong as hallucinations; I certainly don't see or hear mental images as if they were physical phenomena right there in front of me, and I venture to say that for most people it's nothing that intense either.

In my case it's more like having a dimly lit film projection, where I can scrutinize the details of an object that interests me while blurring the rest. The charm of the narrative is that, thanks to the allure of the narrative, we stop paying attention to the physical stimuli that we do have in front of us, and we concentrate fully on those imperfect images as if we were wearing a VR headset, making the real world cease to matter.

danielxcutter

2021-07-15, 07:44 AM

Aside from other novel activities that can be used to expand their usefulness, the primary utility of libraries in a digital information era is as backup storage in case some catastrophe of civilization leaves us without computers. I'm saddened when civil servants don't get that and proceed to strip libraries of their physical contents, even going as far as destroying the books.

Bureaucracy often misses a lot of the nuances, and that's in the better case scenarios.

TheNecrocomicon

2021-07-15, 07:45 AM

If Belkar pulls blood feast out of that bag and he's dead from suffocating, I will literally* eat my hat

*figuratively

Well, yes. I think Bloodfeast is alive and perfectly fine in tiny lizard form, and astronomically unlikely that he's dead, but some people have been very dedicated to insisting up and down how RAW means he must be dead by now. I was just hedging my bets.

And in case it wasn't clear, potions are magic as well.

Are they? Or just sufficiently advanced science and technology in-universe? Poisons, even epic-level ones, obviously aren't magical in nature because they worked very well on Roy inside the AMF cone two strips ago, rather than just hitting him with two plus-whatever nonmagical darts. It stands to reason that antidotes or antipoisons, at least, would be likewise. And if they aren't magical, what else isn't?

No doubt magic is often if not always involved in the creation of potions, like how we saw Serini brewing up the epic-level sleep poison, but they retain at least some of their effects on a mundane material level.

EDIT: And even if potions are unambiguously magical in nature, they could pour whatever they choose down someone's throat (without choking them, of course), and the potions would or should then take effect the moment that the antimagic field is no longer in effect or covering the person or people in question.

danielxcutter

2021-07-15, 07:49 AM

Are they? Or just sufficiently advanced science and technology in-universe? Poisons, even epic-level ones, obviously aren't magical in nature because they worked very well on Roy inside the AMF cone two strips ago, rather than just hitting him with two plus-whatever nonmagical darts. It stands to reason that antidotes or antipoisons, at least, would be likewise. And if they aren't magical, what else isn't?

No doubt magic is often if not always involved in the creation of potions, like how we saw Serini brewing up the epic-level sleep poison, but they retain at least some of their effects on a mundane material level.

For starters, potions are literally listed under magic items. You're thinking of alchemy-based items like antitoxin.

TheNecrocomicon

2021-07-15, 08:03 AM

For starters, potions are literally listed under magic items. You're thinking of alchemy-based items like antitoxin.

Okay, and what's to say that the Order don't have any? In-universe, they were just in a large town full of technological geniuses a week or two ago. The gnomes definitely had skilled artificers among them, and I would not be surprised at all if there were also (an) alchemist(s) actively making wares and selling them to adventurers.

Of course, I correct myself here, Serini was brewing up an amnesia potion when we all first saw her in her lair. But poisons -- especially if they're epic-level sleep poisons -- should count as potions, and since that worked just fine within the AMF field, it stands to reason that some fudging of the RAW is going on here for story reasons.

danielxcutter

2021-07-15, 08:28 AM

Okay, and what's to say that the Order don't have any? In-universe, they were just in a large town full of technological geniuses a week or two ago. The gnomes definitely had skilled artificers among them, and I would not be surprised at all if there were also (an) alchemist(s) actively making wares and selling them to adventurers.

Of course, I correct myself here, Serini was brewing up an amnesia potion when we all first saw her in her lair. But poisons -- especially if they're epic-level sleep poisons -- should count as potions, and since that worked just fine within the AMF field, it stands to reason that some fudging of the RAW is going on here for story reasons.

Poisons explicitly do not count as supernatural unless specifically stated, and even then they're an entirely different category from potions. Artificers specialize in making magic items, not making non-magical alchemical items, and alchemical items tend to be crap compared to magic over 2nd-level slots. And that's assuming they carry them outside the bags just in case of an AMF.

Riftwolf

2021-07-15, 08:44 AM

Poisons explicitly do not count as supernatural unless specifically stated, and even then they're an entirely different category from potions. Artificers specialize in making magic items, not making non-magical alchemical items, and alchemical items tend to be crap compared to magic over 2nd-level slots. And that's assuming they carry them outside the bags just in case of an AMF.

Real life poisons are also non-magical, and if anything they're worse than d&d poisons (most of which a 1st level commoner can feasibly withstand, and a lot of them they'd stand a chance of surviving even if they failed their saves).
Serini could be harvesting venom from some con-boosted monsters (unless I'm mis-remembering, but that is how save DCs are calculated) to boost her poisons efficacy. From memory, poison use after 10th level is meaningless in RAW 3.5.

danielxcutter

2021-07-15, 09:00 AM

Peelee

2021-07-15, 09:19 AM

no anti-magic field is strong enough to suppress the magic of your imagination!

Libraries are freedom, kids.

Sig?
I understand the character count filter but it's still annoying in occasion.

Spriteless

2021-07-15, 09:30 AM

Oh wow Elan's really stepping up!

Edit: I love the face Elan makes as he tells the story, even in the dark. He's remembering getting grit in his eye, to better share the feeling of getting grit in one's eye.

Heksefatter

2021-07-15, 09:44 AM

I love Sunny.

danielxcutter

2021-07-15, 09:45 AM

I love Sunny.

Don't we all.

Shining Wrath

2021-07-15, 10:02 AM

What kind of potions would wake him up though? Concentrated coffeine? Or are there any general "antipoison" potion? More importantly, do they have any not in the Bags of Holding?

Since we don't know what Serini just used (other than "sleep"), we don't know what the antidote might be.

And in case it wasn't clear, potions are magic as well.

Okay, and what's to say that the Order don't have any? In-universe, they were just in a large town full of technological geniuses a week or two ago. The gnomes definitely had skilled artificers among them, and I would not be surprised at all if there were also (an) alchemist(s) actively making wares and selling them to adventurers.

Of course, I correct myself here, Serini was brewing up an amnesia potion when we all first saw her in her lair. But poisons -- especially if they're epic-level sleep poisons -- should count as potions, and since that worked just fine within the AMF field, it stands to reason that some fudging of the RAW is going on here for story reasons.

This raises an interesting question - if poisons are not magical, but the antidotes are, then casting Cloud Kill followed by an anti-magic field is guaranteed to kill anyone who can't flee the cloud via non-magical means.

danielxcutter

2021-07-15, 10:17 AM

This raises an interesting question - if poisons are not magical, but the antidotes are, then casting Cloud Kill followed by an anti-magic field is guaranteed to kill anyone who can't flee the cloud via non-magical means.

Is Cloudkill an Instantaneous effect? Most poisons aren't magical but some are.

Quizatzhaderac

2021-07-15, 10:31 AM

I'm sure that more than enough pages of pedantry have been wasted on the topic already. It's more than reasonable that as a very small lizard, one that's asleep if not hibernating, the air within the bag could last quite a long time and much longer than it would for a humanoid occupant.About 20ish hours by my calculation. Several times longer if the bag also contains a few pounds of soda lime (to remove the CO2).

At this point I think Burlew's thought process is just "Guys, if I could afford to let the Order bring a dinosaur around on their adventures, I wouldn't have turned them into a lizard in the first place".Vaarsuvius has a dinosaur and Bloodfeast was already a lizard.
If Belkar pulls blood feast out of that bag and he's dead from suffocating, I will literally* eat my hat

*figurativelyAre you aware the you can make a hat out of tortilla?

Riftwolf

2021-07-15, 11:05 AM

Some poisons do have ridiculously high DCs even without magic; according to Dungeonscape megapede venom is something like DC 44 so... Though none of those poisons knock people out; most do ability damage at the least.

New headcanon: Serini's poison was harvested from a Celestial Megapede who'd taken a Vow of Nonviolence, meaning his poison does nonlethal con damage :b

Just a quick point; I was trying to figure out how Haley knew when to take the arrow out if they're supposed to be in total darkness (which is portrayed as cinematic darkness for our benefit) and unable to see Sunny. One thought that occurred, which could've been a visual indication, was that when Sunny blinked, V's light spell should pop back up (from memory, AMF suppresses spells, it doesn't dispel them). Maybe that explanation would've taken too many panels?

bunsen_h

2021-07-15, 11:08 AM

What kind of potions would wake him up though? Concentrated coffeine? Or are there any general "antipoison" potion? More importantly, do they have any not in the Bags of Holding?

The TV Batman had a "Bat-Universal Antidote", so there's precedent. Of a kind.

It'll be interesting to see if V -- highest intelligence in the party, but socially deficient -- will have picked up on what Elan was working on doing, in time to have an action prepped.

Are you aware the you can make a hat out of tortilla?

Anything that can be done by origami can be done with a sufficiently large tortilla.

Dion

2021-07-15, 11:14 AM

I love Sunny.

I want to read the further adventures of Sunny and MitD.

denthor

2021-07-15, 11:28 AM

It's more like a feint or diversion in combat. That sort of situation is fully covered by the bluff skill (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm) since you can use it to cause a diversion and even hide after the bluff works. Except instead of saying "What's that?" and pointing to the ceiling, the bard tells a story and gets a blink. Plus, Elan is a Dashing Swordsman (https://oots.fandom.com/wiki/Dashing_Swordsman) and should have at least 9 or more ranks in Bluff. Haley stole the show with his potion of glibness, it'd be a shame if Elan never got to show off his bluff skills.

Or his Perform (comedy) ranks.

"There's a shortage of perfect jests in the world. T'would be a shame to lose yours."

Anyway, great strip! Loved every panel, title, and winky face.
I never knew I wanted a set of beholder emojis until now.

By the course of that speech, I was expecting Elan or Haley to put some dirt in Sunny's eye.

Again Elan took a feat to enhance his skill at creating verbal pictures. The beholder is vulnerable to this it appears.

See comic #13

Peelee

2021-07-15, 11:36 AM

The TV Batman had a "Bat-Universal Antidote", so there's precedent. Of a kind.

Oh c'mon. The Adam West Batman? Some days he couldn't even get rid of a bomb!

Bacon Elemental

2021-07-15, 12:17 PM

Anyone else notice that Serini assumed Haley was the party leader?

little bit of "my class is best" attitude slipping out there you think?

Coat

2021-07-15, 12:30 PM

Oh c'mon. The Adam West Batman? Some days he couldn't even get rid of a bomb!

Every time I have a day where I... y'know, just like gravity is turned up to 11, and everything falls over, and you knock your toes against everything and it's all just hard... on those days I say "some days you just can't get rid of a bomb". It just sums it all up.

Only don't do this in a airport. Really don't.

Aside from other novel activities that can be used to expand their usefulness, the primary utility of libraries in a digital information era is as backup storage in case some catastrophe of civilization leaves us without...

Aside from the fact that books are beautiful, and that libraries are places where the world becomes quiet, a novel can do one thing that no other medium can do as effectively.
It can show you the inside of someone else's head.

And when you follow the internal narrative of another human - then your own preconceptions become clear to you. Then you become aware of the filters your upbringing, your culture, your context places on your understanding of the world. And only when you are aware of these filters can you shed them.

This is why books are freedom. All systems of control start and end in the mind.

With that said, this strip really is a shining example of something I can't understand whatsoever - when people tell stories, do people really feel things in this kind of fashion? I can accept that people have quasi hallucinations and can see/hear things in their mind, which sounds odd but really fits all the visualization stuff I'd assumed was metaphor. Having a running commentary in their heads is slightly harder to grok, but okay, we see it in films - it's not just a narrative device? Okay. And then you get stuff where people can feel - or quasi-feel - what's described, and it just seems so... strange. All I ever feel is what's here. How much of this is dramatic exaggeration?

None of it?

Elan's monologue made my eyes itchy and made me want to blink. Maybe I am the opposite of you, and particularly sensitive to this kind of thing?

When I think back to the book I was reading earlier today, I don't recall the words, I recall the asteroid surface, the harsh light on the concrete, the rasping breathing the EVA suit. I recall images. Reading, as an experience for me, feels close to dreaming - very like it, really. I lose all awareness of the text, the book, the world around me - I am absorbed in the story, and it's as vivid and embracing as a dream, except it ends the moment I put the book down. And like a dream there's the awareness of sensation without the sensation - like in a dream you can be aware of a vast tree without actually seeing the tree.

Peelee

2021-07-15, 12:40 PM

Every time I have a day where I... y'know, just like gravity is turned up to 11, and everything falls over, and you knock your toes against everything and it's all just hard... on those days I say "some days you just can't get rid of a bomb". It just sums it all up.

That one has really stiff the test of time. Everyone can resonate with it at some point in their lives.

NihhusHuotAliro

2021-07-15, 12:41 PM

I assumed that beholders would have some sort of nictating membrane.

Heksefatter

2021-07-15, 01:56 PM

I want to read the further adventures of Sunny and MitD.

That is THE spinoff needing to happen! Even more than the much-dreamed-of Trigak-prequel.

WolvesbaneIII

2021-07-15, 02:33 PM

would the light have any effect on serini? like would her goggles make it too bright and blind her?

I'm not sure what they are, or how they work.

Any stats on those and how they work?

TheNecrocomicon

2021-07-15, 02:47 PM

About 20ish hours by my calculation. Several times longer if the bag also contains a few pounds of soda lime (to remove the CO2).

And assuming that calculation is anywhere near accurate, all Belkar has to do is open the bag offscreen once or twice a day to replenish the oxygen completely, and thus extend the survivable time indefinitely. We only saw Bloodfeast napping once to remind us (the audience) that he is still with the party and available for use.

The timer only really started running once the anti-magic field took effect and the bag could no longer be opened. And considering how long a full combat generally takes in D&D, in terms of rounds and minutes, that may be trivial.

bunsen_h

2021-07-15, 03:56 PM

Oh c'mon. The Adam West Batman? Some days he couldn't even get rid of a bomb!

Baby ducklings! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pSD26bGy3I)

Note that his words were that "some days you just can't get rid of a bomb". Not "some days I just can't get rid of a bomb".

WanderingMist

2021-07-15, 05:02 PM

Edit:
P.S.- The visualizations aren't really as strong as hallucinations; I certainly don't see or hear mental images as if they were physical phenomena right there in front of me, and I venture to say that for most people it's nothing that intense either.

In my case it's more like having a dimly lit film projection, where I can scrutinize the details of an object that interests me while blurring the rest. The charm of the narrative is that, thanks to the allure of the narrative, we stop paying attention to the physical stimuli that we do have in front of us, and we concentrate fully on those imperfect images as if we were wearing a VR headset, making the real world cease to matter.

Wait, books don't play as full high-definition movies in your head when you're reading? Heck, when I get invested enough, I stop noticing when I have to turn the page.

Kantaki

2021-07-15, 05:51 PM

Wait, books don't play as full high-definition movies in your head when you're reading? Heck, when I get invested enough, I stop noticing when I have to turn the page.

Heh. I still remember the first time I read the novels for the original Star Wars movies.

It's summer, evening and I was sitting outside to read.
Finished A New Hope and continued with Empire.
With the lovely description of Hoth.

That was when I realized it had gotten really friggin cold. Well, not cold cold, but noticeably cooled down.

But with the combination of being so immersed in my reading that I didn't notice that it was cooling down and then reading about a ice planet?
I. was. freezing.:smallamused:

So yeah, Elan's little performance definitely gave me itchy eyes. Poor little eyeball thingy, I feel with you.

Lysbeth

2021-07-15, 06:05 PM

Again Elan took a feat to enhance his skill at creating verbal pictures. The beholder is vulnerable to this it appears.

See comic #13

Comic #13 calls this a bardic spell. I assume spells are dispelled <groan>:smallsigh:</groan> by the AMF?

Cavenskull

2021-07-15, 07:12 PM

Sure, those are all fine things for a DM to decide that an entertaining performance can do. But the actual rules for the Perform skill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/perform.htm) only allows you to "impress your audience" and earn some gold if you perform all day. I don't think I'd describe Sunny's reaction as "being impressed", so I don't see how Elan's actions could be a use of the Perform rules.

Threats and extortion are the domain of Intimidate, not Bluff. I agree that Elan's actions aren't a good fit for Bluff; I just think they're an even worse fit for any other skill.
The Perform skill can make someone famous across multiple planes of existence, but can not motivate someone to cry? I find your Bluff hard to believe, given that performaces that induce people to cry are so common there's even a word for it: 'tearjerker'.

Also, one common definition of 'impress' is: fix an idea in (someone's mind). That is something great performances often do, and I'd argue that Elan fixed the idea of a painfully oppressive desert environment in the totally-not-a-beholder's mind quite effectively. In contrast, common definitions of 'bluff' involve attempts to deceive someone. I have trouble believing Elan was lying about the irritating effects of a hot, windy desert.

Dion

2021-07-15, 07:50 PM

That is THE spinoff needing to happen! Even more than the much-dreamed-of Trigak-prequel.

I imagine Sunny and MitD traveling the multiverse and solving mysteries.

They’re dressed as Batman and Robin.

Sunny is Robin, not because she’s the sidekick but because the big black domino mask with one eyehole is easy to draw and doesn’t violate copyright (her eight eyestalks also have eight tiny domino masks).

MitD’s Batman costume is implied, but never shown.

They do not solve complicated mysteries.

KorvinStarmast

2021-07-15, 08:21 PM

Wait, books don't play as full high-definition movies in your head when you're reading? Heck, when I get invested enough, I stop noticing when I have to turn the page. Likewise.

They do not solve complicated mysteries. Their first book/show is called "The Case of the Lost Stewpot"

InvisibleBison

2021-07-15, 08:53 PM

The Perform skill can make someone famous across multiple planes of existence, but can not motivate someone to cry? I find your Bluff hard to believe, given that performaces that induce people to cry are so common there's even a word for it: 'tearjerker'.

You are far from the first person to realize that the rules of D&D 3.5 are in many ways lacking. I agree that it makes perfect sense for a skilled actor to be able to produce an emotional reaction through their performance. However, according to the rules of the game, the only things you can do with the Perform skill are earn money through public performances and use Bardic Music abilities. The sort of thing that Elan did is absolutely not within the domain of the Perform skill.

Cazero

2021-07-16, 12:20 AM

Note that his words were that "some days you just can't get rid of a bomb". Not "some days I just can't get rid of a bomb".
Yeah, the thing to take from that clip is that he did get rid of that bomb.

Cavenskull

2021-07-16, 01:04 AM

You are far from the first person to realize that the rules of D&D 3.5 are in many ways lacking. I agree that it makes perfect sense for a skilled actor to be able to produce an emotional reaction through their performance. However, according to the rules of the game, the only things you can do with the Perform skill are earn money through public performances and use Bardic Music abilities. The sort of thing that Elan did is absolutely not within the domain of the Perform skill.
It may not be expressly allowed, but it's also not expressly forbidden. And D&D 3.5 does have rules that cover this under Adjudication in the Rules Basics section. The rules admit that it's impossible to cover all possible situations, and rely on the DM to handle whatever the rules can't. Among other things, the DM is expected to use common sense and real-world knowledge when dealing with situation inadequately covered by the rules, and I'd argue that allowing a good storytelling Performance check to cause a creature to tear-up is supported by real-world precedence and common sense. That certainly makes more sense to me than trying to use Bluff to "deceive" someone by describing an accurate, first-hand account of a personal experience.

elros

2021-07-16, 02:21 AM

I have never been proud of Elan! He may not be able to inspire the troops, but he can make someone blink.

Regarding the rules, if I had a player role play that scene, I would give them the success, no question.

Fyraltari

2021-07-16, 02:36 AM

I have never been proud of Elan!

:elan: There's no need to be mean like that.

TuringTest

2021-07-16, 06:27 AM

Wait, books don't play as full high-definition movies in your head when you're reading? Heck, when I get invested enough, I stop noticing when I have to turn the page.

Maybe I have myopic-phantasia, and don't see the fantastic realm as well as I should :smalltongue:

I do get the effect of being lost into the pages and stop noticing. It's just that the day dream has a lot more of symbolic than physical.

That is THE spinoff needing to happen! Even more than the much-dreamed-of Trigak-prequel.

I had to check *who* was Trigak, and wow! When did the chimera get an art upgrade (https://oots.fandom.com/wiki/Trigak)?

urbanwolf

2021-07-16, 07:01 AM

danielxcutter

2021-07-16, 07:09 AM

Instead of preform or bluff Elan could of used an ability check. 1d20 plus charisma.

Sunny making( and losing) either an opposed charisma check, or a wisdom check, or a will save.

I don't have the phone skill to quote the srd, but when I get home I can add in the description of ability checks.

Ability checks are usually 1. uncommon and B) pretty hard to make, especially since beholders typically have pretty good Cha bonuses and Elan's belt of Charisma is negated.

One Skunk Todd

2021-07-16, 07:28 AM

I’m pretty sure Elan has been described as “cutey” before.

Which would mean that…

…Cutey is in the eye of the beholder.

urbanwolf

2021-07-16, 08:03 AM

Ability checks are usually 1. uncommon and B) pretty hard to make, especially since beholders typically have pretty good Cha bonuses and Elan's belt of Charisma is negated.

I would not call them uncommon, maybe it depends on the players.

From the SRD

Ability Checks
Sometimes a character tries to do something to which no specific skill really applies. In these cases, you make an ability check. An ability check is a roll of 1d20 plus the appropriate ability modifier. Essentially, you’re making an untrained skill check.

If it dose not fit well into bluff or perform, maybe no skill applies thus the ability check.

As for them being hard. That is irrelevant, Sunny blinked.

rasborry

2021-07-16, 08:10 AM

Regarding the rules, if I had a player role play that scene, I would give them the success, no question.

Without having to roll anything?

danielxcutter

2021-07-16, 08:16 AM

Yeah but like nobody really calls for making a flat ability check much. Most DMs would probably just ad-hoc a skill for that so the player could actually use their skill bonuses, and if they didn't want the player to succeed they probably wouldn't have let them roll at all.

KorvinStarmast

2021-07-16, 10:02 AM

I’m pretty sure Elan has been described as “cutey” before.
He's been called cutie, but yes (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0302.html). :smallsmile:

woweedd

2021-07-16, 10:49 AM

Without having to roll anything?

I have seen DMs do that, when the player actually bothers to role play out a good bluff or whatever.

danielxcutter

2021-07-16, 10:52 AM

Honestly if it makes sense for the character to be capable and if it's really good I can see DM's okaying that without a roll.

bunsen_h

2021-07-16, 04:36 PM

That self-igniting arrow... is it a standard D&D item? I'm not seeing it in the SRD.

mjasghar

2021-07-16, 04:42 PM

Thoughtbot360

2021-07-16, 05:12 PM

Can't see it either.

Because you have SAND IN YOUR EYE!

*plays laugh track*

TheNecrocomicon

2021-07-16, 06:38 PM

WRT the bag of holding
The 10 minute rule clearly isn’t being followed as bloodfeast has been pictured or implied to be in the closed many times and for long periods. So, to my mind, this is one of Rich’s occasions where what makes a better story is more important.

He's currently a tiny lizard, and as many people have pointed out ad nauseam, such a creature has relatively much lower oxygen demands than a medium-sized humanoid, to the extent that what volume of air would last an average person or other similar being ten minutes as per RAW could be stretched out to many hours or even days at a time for a diminutive and likely sleeping reptile who is the only living occupant of the bag.

Also, all Belkar has to do is open up the bag every so often to replenish the oxygen within, which he could easily be doing even at ten-minute intervals off-panel, if that "ten minute rule" was being applied with the excessive rigidity and inflexibility that seems to be the extent of some people's imagination.

MartianInvader

2021-07-16, 08:52 PM

That self-igniting arrow... is it a standard D&D item? I'm not seeing it in the SRD.

Wouldn't they just be flaming (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#flaming) arrows? That are suppressed until they exit the anti-magic field.

bunsen_h

2021-07-16, 10:54 PM

Wouldn't they just be flaming (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#flaming) arrows? That are suppressed until they exit the anti-magic field.

Can that feature be applied to arrows, rather than the bow? At any rate, I wouldn't expect that it could be triggered inside an active AMF, to activate upon exiting the field while out of contact with the archer.

danielxcutter

2021-07-16, 11:01 PM

Can that feature be applied to arrows, rather than the bow? At any rate, I wouldn't expect that it could be triggered inside an active AMF, to activate upon exiting the field while out of contact with the archer.

Yes, most weapon qualities can be separately added to arrows as well as bows. In 3.0e the enhancement bonuses also stacked but apparently Martials Can't Have Nice ThingsTM.

Resileaf

2021-07-17, 12:51 AM

Anyone else notice that Serini assumed Haley was the party leader?

little bit of "my class is best" attitude slipping out there you think?

It's not that much of a stretch for Serini to assume that. Haley took charge quickly when it became obvious Roy was down for the count. Besides, she's basically Roy's second-in-command.

Precure

2021-07-17, 03:59 AM

would the light have any effect on serini? like would her goggles make it too bright and blind her?

Her troll half might turn to stone.

danielxcutter

2021-07-17, 04:05 AM

Her troll half might turn to stone.

Uh... you're joking, right?

mjasghar

2021-07-17, 04:40 AM

He's currently a tiny lizard, and as many people have pointed out ad nauseam, such a creature has relatively much lower oxygen demands than a medium-sized humanoid, to the extent that what volume of air would last an average person or other similar being ten minutes as per RAW could be stretched out to many hours or even days at a time for a diminutive and likely sleeping reptile who is the only living occupant of the bag.

Also, all Belkar has to do is open up the bag every so often to replenish the oxygen within, which he could easily be doing even at ten-minute intervals off-panel, if that "ten minute rule" was being applied with the excessive rigidity and inflexibility that seems to be the extent of some people's imagination.

That’s not how it works
The barrier is constant and the rules don’t specify the size of the air pocket
Otherwise the rules would actually say leaving the bag open lets more air in
Specifically the bag of holding has always been written as needing active intention to put something in it or take out - not passive entry

Jasdoif

2021-07-17, 04:42 AM

Wouldn't they just be flaming (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#flaming) arrows? That are suppressed until they exit the anti-magic field.Can that feature be applied to arrows, rather than the bow?Certainly. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html)

More generally, a weapon property that can be applied to a ranged weapon can instead be applied to fifty pieces of ammunition for the same cost, as is implied by the table for magic weapon prices (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#tableWeapons). (Yes it is kind of an odd place to present information.)

danielxcutter

2021-07-17, 05:11 AM

Riftwolf

2021-07-17, 05:20 AM

That’s not how it works
The barrier is constant and the rules don’t specify the size of the air pocket
Otherwise the rules would actually say leaving the bag open lets more air in
Specifically the bag of holding has always been written as needing active intention to put something in it or take out - not passive entry

If that was the case, why would there be air in the bag at all?

Or would Belkar opening the bag with the intention of letting fresh air in for Bloodfeast be enough intent for the bloody-minded rules lawyer?

Also I've read the SRD and there's nothing about intent specified. It could be something Wizards errata'd in after being asked what happens when you open a bag of holding underwater (if someone has the DMG still, it might be in there somewhere), but this is the first time I've heard Bag of Holding with Intent mentioned.

Zakaarus

2021-07-17, 07:15 AM

haha i absolutely love this, I legitimately couldn't think of how they'd stand a chance - serini planned the fight out well and this was a very unexpected move

haley on the other hand, I think taking out a flaming arrow is a bit of a weak choice, but it either gives them light to let the non dwarves have more impact, or makes serini waste a turn getting the arrow down (unless I'm missing some rules that would stop sunny from flying her over and let her reach up to get the arrow while maintaining the anti magic cone. I guess it'd be hard to direct a flying mount looking elsewhere). I hope she has a plan to defend it somehow. A better choice would've been to yell at belkar to get both a mundane torch and his dinosaur out by tipping his bag over (keeping the light source in arms reach means it's much harder to put out), or even tip her own bag to have more choices (maybe extra daggers to throw for belkar)

danielxcutter

2021-07-17, 07:49 AM

KorvinStarmast

2021-07-17, 07:58 AM

Zakaarus

2021-07-17, 08:11 AM

:nale: Nale would, I think, approve this overly complicated approach.

i mean, emptying a bag of holding is probably less complicated than looking for something specific inside it

Yirggzmb

2021-07-17, 10:04 AM

That’s not how it works
The barrier is constant and the rules don’t specify the size of the air pocket
Otherwise the rules would actually say leaving the bag open lets more air in
Specifically the bag of holding has always been written as needing active intention to put something in it or take out - not passive entry

I'm in camp "story is more important than following exact d&d rules to the tee". And in all honesty, "creatures suffocate inside of bags of holding" is just super unintuitive. A lizard would likely be fine indefinitely, air-wise, in a normal bag. And even if someone considered the idea of the pocket dimension getting in the way of airflow or whatever, "Belkar opens the bag regularly" is a fine enough excuse.

This isn't the kind of comic where Bloodfeast will have been suffocated off panel, so it doesn't matter how default d&d bags of holding work.

bunsen_h

2021-07-17, 11:36 AM

I'm in camp "story is more important than following exact d&d rules to the tee". And in all honesty, "creatures suffocate inside of bags of holding" is just super unintuitive. A lizard would likely be fine indefinitely, air-wise, in a normal bag. And even if someone considered the idea of the pocket dimension getting in the way of airflow or whatever, "Belkar opens the bag regularly" is a fine enough excuse.

This isn't the kind of comic where Bloodfeast will have been suffocated off panel, so it doesn't matter how default d&d bags of holding work.

Page 799 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0799.html) showed YukYuk holding up one of Haley's bags and everything pouring out. It's not clear how much active intervention he was providing.

I don't believe that Belkar would be opening the bag every 10 minutes to refresh the air supply. It would be too easy to mess up, too disruptive to living one's life. Can you imagine living like that? -- the constant focus on managing that bag? I've seen videos of people having to devote their lives to feeding newly-hatched birds and newborn tiny animals whose mothers had died, working almost constantly, and they at least had other people to give them some relief. It's a recipe for rapid burn-out.

But it also makes little sense to me that the air supply would be good for exactly 10 minutes regardless of the kind of creature hiding in the bag.

Petrocorus

2021-07-17, 02:53 PM

What, you assume that the bag only has 10 minutes of air ever?

By RAW (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bagofHolding), this is the case.
Of course it makes little sense in the case of a small lizard, and The Giant doesn't follow the letter of the rules.
But in an actual game, a vicious DM could actually have the lizard suffocate after 10 minutes.

And yes, the extra-dimensional space is actually closed and hermetic as long as the bag is not opened.

Cazero

2021-07-17, 03:00 PM

And yes, the extra-dimensional space is actually closed and hermetic as long as the bag is not opened.
The remark you quoted followed a comment implying that opening the bag wouldn't refill those 10 minutes.

Dion

2021-07-17, 03:17 PM

Uh... you're joking, right?

Trolls turn to stone when light falls on them, because Morgoth cast the spell that turned them into trolls in the dark.

That’s the rule!

Fyraltari

2021-07-17, 03:44 PM

Trolls turn to stone when light falls on them, because Morgoth cast the spell that turned them into trolls in the dark.

That’s the rule!

Olog-hai: *laugh in Black Speech*

Riftwolf

2021-07-17, 05:38 PM

Trolls turn to stone when light falls on them, because Morgoth cast the spell that turned them into trolls in the dark.

That’s the rule!

Nonono, it's because the sunlight overheats their silicate brains and forces them to shut down.
Or because their bodies can't regulate vitamin D and so rapidly bind calcium to counter its production.

dancrilis

2021-07-17, 05:44 PM

What, you assume that the bag only has 10 minutes of air ever?

Not quite - it has ten minutes per being.

If you have 2 bags of holding and place 100 creatures in the first and 1 creature in the second all 101 run out of air at the same time - it is likely that when the bag detects a life form it allocates 10 minutes of air for that lifeform, further even if you choose to store air in the bag that stored air would not be allocated to any of the creatures that are placed into the bag.

Or such is my reading.

Petrocorus

2021-07-17, 07:03 PM

The remark you quoted followed a comment implying that opening the bag wouldn't refill those 10 minutes.
I said this because i saw several comments on the fact that the lizard could live indefinitely in the bag.

Not quite - it has ten minutes per being.
If you have 2 bags of holding and place 100 creatures in the first and 1 creature in the second all 101 run out of air at the same time -
This is actually how it would play if we apply the rules exactly as written.
Of course it doesn't make much sense if you think about it.

mjasghar

2021-07-17, 07:06 PM

Yirggzmb

2021-07-17, 08:17 PM

Page 799 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0799.html) showed YukYuk holding up one of Haley's bags and everything pouring out. It's not clear how much active intervention he was providing.

I don't believe that Belkar would be opening the bag every 10 minutes to refresh the air supply. It would be too easy to mess up, too disruptive to living one's life. Can you imagine living like that? -- the constant focus on managing that bag? I've seen videos of people having to devote their lives to feeding newly-hatched birds and newborn tiny animals whose mothers had died, working almost constantly, and they at least had other people to give them some relief. It's a recipe for rapid burn-out.

But it also makes little sense to me that the air supply would be good for exactly 10 minutes regardless of the kind of creature hiding in the bag.

Oh, I agree every ten minutes would be a giant pain. But if someone really wanted to reconcile RAW with the comic, that's an option for them.

Personally, I think "there's only ten minutes of air" is unintuitive at best, and too rules-lawyer-y to ever come up in the comic now that we're past the "make jokes about the rules" stage. It makes way more sense that the tiny lizard napping in a bag has plenty of air, especially when said bag is probably opened now and then to get stuff or put things in. Also Belkar probably feeds Bloodfeast as needed, whatever that schedule is for a tiny lizard.

Peelee

2021-07-17, 09:15 PM

Trolls turn to stone when light falls on them, because Morgoth cast the spell that turned them into trolls in the dark.

That’s the rule!

But will she talk until that happens, or will V split a rock open for some weird reason?

skim172

2021-07-17, 10:04 PM

Nonono, it's because the sunlight overheats their silicate brains and forces them to shut down.
Or because their bodies can't regulate vitamin D and so rapidly bind calcium to counter its production.

This ... is genius. I think you've cracked it. This explains troll biology. This is the answer.

It's also in line with this actual pilot study published in the Medical Journal of Australia (https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2013/199/11/hobbit-unexpected-deficiency) that found a statistically significant correlation between "Good" and high Vitamin D scores among Tolkien characters.

(Citation: Hopkinson JA, Hopkinson NS. The hobbit - an unexpected deficiency. Med J Aust. 2013;199(11):805-806. doi:10.5694/mja13.10218)

Riftwolf

2021-07-18, 06:45 AM

This ... is genius. I think you've cracked it. This explains troll biology. This is the answer.

It's also in line with this actual pilot study published in the Medical Journal of Australia (https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2013/199/11/hobbit-unexpected-deficiency) that found a statistically significant correlation between "Good" and high Vitamin D scores among Tolkien characters.

(Citation: Hopkinson JA, Hopkinson NS. The hobbit - an unexpected deficiency. Med J Aust. 2013;199(11):805-806. doi:10.5694/mja13.10218)

I can't take credit for that, Terry Pratchett suggested the first and the Norwegians suggested the other XD (The film 'Troll Hunter' is well worth watching)

Dion

2021-07-18, 12:23 PM

Perhaps BloodFeast is a frozen hibernating Siberian salamander, and requires no oxygen.

BarakDeathBlade

2021-07-18, 01:18 PM

The bags in 3.5 and earlier definitely seem to be based on actively wanting a specific item which suggests each item is held separately
It makes sense as with the size of items it would be impossible to take stuff out if the last thing out in was awkwardly shaped
Interesting to note that in 5e it’s been changed to 10 minutes split between any creature possibly as a response to exploitative behaviour

The rules for the Handy Haversack suggest otherwise, from SRD:

Handy Haversack

A backpack of this sort appears to be well made, well used, and quite ordinary. It is constructed of finely tanned leather, and the straps have brass hardware and buckles. It has two side pouches, each of which appears large enough to hold about a quart of material. In fact, each is like a bag of holding and can actually hold material of as much as 2 cubic feet in volume or 20 pounds in weight. The large central portion of the pack can contain up to 8 cubic feet or 80 pounds of material. Even when so filled, the backpack always weighs only 5 pounds.

While such storage is useful enough, the pack has an even greater power in addition. When the wearer reaches into it for a specific item, that item is always on top. Thus, no digging around and fumbling is ever necessary to find what a haversack contains. Retrieving any specific item from a haversack is a move action, but it does not provoke the attacks of opportunity that retrieving a stored item usually does.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#handyHaversack

Dion

2021-07-18, 02:14 PM

The rules for the Handy Haversack suggest otherwise, from SRD:
Handy Haversack

I agree that a Handy Haversack requires two move actions every 10 minutes - one move action to remove the bad air, and a second to insert the good air.

DavidSh

2021-07-18, 02:44 PM

This ... is genius. I think you've cracked it. This explains troll biology. This is the answer.

It's also in line with this actual pilot study published in the Medical Journal of Australia (https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2013/199/11/hobbit-unexpected-deficiency) that found a statistically significant correlation between "Good" and high Vitamin D scores among Tolkien characters.

(Citation: Hopkinson JA, Hopkinson NS. The hobbit - an unexpected deficiency. Med J Aust. 2013;199(11):805-806. doi:10.5694/mja13.10218)

This goes along with the idea that it takes sunlight, or at least a good simulacrum thereof with an ample supply of UV, to turn trolls to stone. Firelight, or ordinary illumination spells, won't do the trick. So Serini is safe. If Middle-Earth rules or European tradition apply.

BarakDeathBlade

2021-07-18, 03:13 PM

I totally agree that a Handy Haversack requires two move actions every 10 minutes - one move action to remove the bad air, and a second to insert the good air.

I was addressing mjasghar's comment that a bag of holding had what you wanted on top; Handy Haversack shows this is not the case; Haley had to root through the bag to find the first item that would help. If she had a Handy Haversack, this wouldn't be an issue, and she would have gotten the best item she had, not the first she found that would work.

Actually, SRD from Bag of Holding:

Retrieving a specific item from a bag of holding is a move action—unless the bag contains more than an ordinary backpack would hold, in which case retrieving a specific item is a full-round action.

So Haley grabbed the first thing that would help, and moved on.

From my view, opening the bag once every 10 minutes replenishes the air, but this assumes (1) the rules make an ounce of sense, (2) the Giant cares about rule minutia to this extent, and (3) even if we never see the return of Bloodfeast the Extreminator, he will not simply suffocate in a bag of holding. Ooops, Belkar, you didn't feed your tamagotchi, you lose... Not happening after Bloodfeast got to sleep on a tiger mammal.

Also, (4) the rules make no sense, (5) don't bother bringing the math, V is respecting the laws of physics which are weeping in the corner.

BarakDeathBlade

2021-07-18, 05:49 PM

(5) don't bother bringing the math, V is respecting the laws of physics which are weeping in the corner.

I should add, the laws of physics are cheering on Serina and Sunny, from the top of the cave.

Patterned_Pike

2021-07-19, 07:25 AM

This goes along with the idea that it takes sunlight, or at least a good simulacrum thereof with an ample supply of UV, to turn trolls to stone. Firelight, or ordinary illumination spells, won't do the trick. So Serini is safe. If Middle-Earth rules or European tradition apply.

Would the "Daylight" spell work then?

Dion

2021-07-19, 07:29 AM

Would the "Daylight" spell work then?

If Gandalf had the spell “daylight”, I wonder if he would have used it against the cave troll in Moria.

BarakDeathBlade

2021-07-19, 07:06 PM

If Gandalf had the spell “daylight”, I wonder if he would have used it against the cave troll in Moria.

And would it then have sapped him of just enough energy that he then lost the battle with the Balrog?

And what if Glamdring was a light saber?

TuringTest

2021-07-20, 06:28 AM

Page 799 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0799.html) showed YukYuk holding up one of Haley's bags and everything pouring out. It's not clear how much active intervention he was providing.

I don't believe that Belkar would be opening the bag every 10 minutes to refresh the air supply. It would be too easy to mess up, too disruptive to living one's life. Can you imagine living like that? -- the constant focus on managing that bag? I've seen videos of people having to devote their lives to feeding newly-hatched birds and newborn tiny animals whose mothers had died, working almost constantly, and they at least had other people to give them some relief. It's a recipe for rapid burn-out.

But it also makes little sense to me that the air supply would be good for exactly 10 minutes regardless of the kind of creature hiding in the bag.

Didn't Belkar mention in-comic that he usually keeps the bag open to keep Bloodfeast from suffocating? I don't remember in what storyline it happened, but I think people discuss this subject in the forum because the story brought it into attention.

In that case, usually air in the bag is not a problem, as Belkar takes care of it. But spending 10 minutes in an anti-magic field could become a time-sensitive risk that puts Bloodfeast in danger, in case its smaller size doesn't provide more breathing time.

P.S. My bad, Belkar shows the bag open (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1091.html) but he doesn't mention anything about air. So the discussion started in the forum around that time.

danielxcutter

2021-07-20, 06:50 AM

One way or another I REALLY don't think Rich is going to hype up Bloodfeast like this and have him be dead of suffocation when he's really needed later. This isn't 8-Bit Theater.

Riftwolf

2021-07-20, 08:44 AM

If Gandalf had the spell “daylight”, I wonder if he would have used it against the cave troll in Moria.

Does Daylight create UV radiation? If so, why does it waste energy generating non-visible parts of the spectrum?

littlebum2002

2021-07-20, 08:48 AM

In that case, usually air in the bag is not a problem, as Belkar takes care of it. But spending 10 minutes in an anti-magic field could become a time-sensitive risk that puts Bloodfeast in danger, in case its smaller size doesn't provide more breathing time.

So right now Bloodfeast (and all of Belkar's other possessions that were in the bag) are stuck in a small plane somewhere with no entrance or exit? What if Belkar had reached his arm down deep in there looking for something and the AMF popped back on? Would his arm be lopped off and stuck in there as well?

Dion

2021-07-20, 09:31 AM

What if Belkar had reached his arm down deep in there looking for something and the AMF popped back on? Would his arm be lopped off and stuck in there as well?

That’s as ridiculous as asking if Sigdi’s arm is on another plane holding Tenrin’s hand.

Of course that’s what happens.

Sigdi and Tenrin are holding hands in Valhalla.

Quizatzhaderac

2021-07-20, 09:35 AM

And would it then have sapped him of just enough energy that he then lost the battle with the Balrog?

And what if Glamdring was a light saber?and what if
If Elves could fly over mountains, they might fetch the Sun to save us
Does Daylight create UV radiation? If so, why does it waste energy generating non-visible parts of the spectrum?It doesn't affect creatures with a magical vulnerability to light, so presumably no.

So right now Bloodfeast (and all of Belkar's other possessions that were in the bag) are stuck in a small plane somewhere with no entrance or exit? What if Belkar had reached his arm down deep in there looking for something and the AMF popped back on? Would his arm be lopped off and stuck in there as well?That's unlikely to happen because D&D is turn based and there's no reason to have your arm in the bag between turns.

If it did happen (say by a readied action) it would vary wildly by DM. If I was DM I'd probably rule that Belkar still has his hand in a bag, it's just the bag isn't able to magically access the extra dimensional store space (i.e. the bag is effectively empty). After all, there's no magic to power cutting his arm off or an infinitely tight seal for the bag.

KorvinStarmast

2021-07-20, 11:01 AM

And what if Glamdring was a light saber? Mr Lucas would have sued.

That's unlikely to happen because D&D is turn based and there's no reason to have your arm in the bag between turns. Unless you are trying to get out your bag of Cheetos. :smallcool:

bunsen_h

2021-07-20, 11:46 AM

After all, there's no magic to power cutting his arm off or an infinitely tight seal for the bag.

Although the situation is unlikely to arise, and the DM would probably take some flack if the character suffered serious harm, I think this is a poor argument. Magic routinely violates conservation of energy. A case could be made that the energy was expended in the process of putting the arm into the bag, across the inter-planar boundary.

Some people have proposed that the mechanism behind all of the doors in Kraagar's Tomb, and the "trap" lines, is a bunch of permanently-open portals. What happens if someone is straddling such a portal boundary when it's shut down? (I'm reminded of some of the concerns expressed in Asimov's story "Such a Beautiful Day", when the family's teleportation Door broke down.)

Riftwolf

2021-07-20, 11:50 AM

It doesn't affect creatures with a magical vulnerability to darkness, so presumably no.

Does such a creature exist? Besides Superman?

Quizatzhaderac

2021-07-20, 01:02 PM

Unless you are trying to get out your bag of Cheetos. :smallcool:Which is why it's impossible to enchant a bad a cheetos.

Does such a creature exist? Besides Superman?Sorry, I meant the exact opposite of what I said. Daylight doesn't affect creatures with a magical vulnerability to light.

..... I think this is a poor argument. Magic routinely violates conservation of energy.But how often does lack of magic violate conservation of energy?

I'll admit to fishing around for the boring answer (if I was more creative, there'd be a fun answer). But I would say being fussy about he laws of thermodynamics is more important in this case than 99% of magical non-sense. This is applying an infinite force to a PC's body in a game that generally contrives to make PCs durable and give a chance to avoid serious damage.

Jasdoif

2021-07-20, 02:28 PM

Does Daylight create UV radiation? If so, why does it waste energy generating non-visible parts of the spectrum?It doesn't affect creatures with a magical vulnerability to light, so presumably no.You'd need something more like sunburst (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sunburst.htm) for that, I think.

Riftwolf

2021-07-20, 03:50 PM

Sorry, I meant the exact opposite of what I said. Daylight doesn't affect creatures with a magical vulnerability to light.

My question still stands; is any creature magically vulnerable to darkness? Because it sounds like a really stupid idea but one that probably has stats.

Skull the Troll

2021-07-20, 04:11 PM

Nope nevermind, My bad.

Fyraltari

2021-07-20, 04:25 PM

My question still stands; is any creature magically vulnerable to darkness? Because it sounds like a really stupid idea but one that probably has stats.

Fear the Reverse-vampire! Quiver and despair!

Borris

2021-07-20, 04:31 PM

My question still stands; is any creature magically vulnerable to darkness? Because it sounds like a really stupid idea but one that probably has stats.

The hellcat has extraordinary invisibility that only works if there's enough light for a human to see.

In a darkened area, it shows up as a faintly glowing outline visible up to 30 feet away (60 feet if the viewer has low-light vision).

jokem

2021-07-20, 06:10 PM

What we need now is to borrow a character from Pathfinder. A Gunslinger with a Blunderbuss or Dragon Pistol.

WanderingMist

2021-07-20, 07:24 PM

By RAW (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bagofHolding), this is the case.
Of course it makes little sense in the case of a small lizard, and The Giant doesn't follow the letter of the rules.
But in an actual game, a vicious DM could actually have the lizard suffocate after 10 minutes.

And yes, the extra-dimensional space is actually closed and hermetic as long as the bag is not opened.
If the lizard suffocated after 10 minutes, another creature would suffocate much sooner. Ruling that the bag magically creates pockets of air for each living creature doesn't make sense given that the bag's purpose is merely to be larger on the inside han the outside.

This ... is genius. I think you've cracked it. This explains troll biology. This is the answer.

It's also in line with this actual pilot study published in the Medical Journal of Australia (https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2013/199/11/hobbit-unexpected-deficiency) that found a statistically significant correlation between "Good" and high Vitamin D scores among Tolkien characters.

(Citation: Hopkinson JA, Hopkinson NS. The hobbit - an unexpected deficiency. Med J Aust. 2013;199(11):805-806. doi:10.5694/mja13.10218)
I"m just going to hazard a guess and say that their correlation comes from the heroes spending their time outside vs. the villains spending it inside.

Which is why it's impossible to enchant a bad a cheetos.
Sorry, I meant the exact opposite of what I said. Daylight doesn't affect creatures with a magical vulnerability to light.
But how often does lack of magic violate conservation of energy?

I'll admit to fishing around for the boring answer (if I was more creative, there'd be a fun answer). But I would say being fussy about he laws of thermodynamics is more important in this case than 99% of magical non-sense. This is applying an infinite force to a PC's body in a game that generally contrives to make PCs durable and give a chance to avoid serious damage.

I suppose it would depend on if the magic counted as a portal or not. If it doesn't, turning it off will just leave you with your hand in a bag the actual size of the bag of holding. If it does, well, that's up to the DM how portals work, if they cut or if they push things out.

Yendor

2021-07-20, 08:03 PM

If the lizard suffocated after 10 minutes, another creature would suffocate much sooner. Ruling that the bag magically creates pockets of air for each living creature doesn't make sense given that the bag's purpose is merely to be larger on the inside han the outside.

Given that the rules don't even take into account the size of the bag, never mind the creatures inside it, it's doubtful much thought was put into this.

Jasdoif

2021-07-20, 08:21 PM

Given that the rules don't even take into account the size of the bag, never mind the creatures inside it, it's doubtful much thought was put into this.I would say that coming up with rules to approximate the volume displaced by a creature, in order to be able to determine how much of the bag's listed internal volume (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bagofHolding) remains to be assumed to be air, in order to calculate how long that air supply lasts according to the slow suffocation rules (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#slowSuffocation); would probably call for too much thought even before considering implementation at the table.

Peelee

2021-07-20, 09:01 PM

So right now Bloodfeast (and all of Belkar's other possessions that were in the bag) are stuck in a small plane somewhere with no entrance or exit? What if Belkar had reached his arm down deep in there looking for something and the AMF popped back on? Would his arm be lopped off and stuck in there as well?

Nah, the bag doesn't have any offensive properties. He just wouldn't be able to remove his arm from the bag, is all. Or put any more of his arm into it. Or much of anything else into it, since his arm would be taking up so much room.

At least, that's how I'd rule it.

skim172

2021-07-20, 09:03 PM

I"m just going to hazard a guess and say that their correlation comes from the heroes spending their time outside vs. the villains spending it inside.

They conducted a textual analysis of The Hobbit, in which each character was rated whether they were Good/Evil and Victorious/Defeated, both on binary scales. Then they rated each character's level of sun exposure on a scale of 0-3, and their diet as 1 or 0 based on whether they were mentioned as consuming any foods that are rich in Vitamin D. The two values were then summed together.

Not only is high Vitamin D level correlated with being Good, but also with being Victorious. Interestingly, they note that while no other goblins are noted as eating fish, the Great Goblin sends down minions to Gollum's caves to specifically catch fish for his meal. They speculate that perhaps his enhanced diet is correlated with his position of power over the other, non-fish-eating goblins.

KorvinStarmast

2021-07-20, 11:07 PM

What we need now is to borrow a character from Pathfinder. A Gunslinger with a Blunderbuss or Dragon Pistol.
Don't think small, widen the field of view.
Bazooka. :smallcool:

Quizatzhaderac

2021-07-21, 09:57 AM

My question still stands; is any creature magically vulnerable to darkness? Because it sounds like a really stupid idea but one that probably has stats.Humans suck pretty bad in the dark.

It's not "magical", but if you think of it in comparison to magical weaknesses, it is a pretty overwhelming weakness.

Don't think small, widen the field of view.
Bazooka. :smallcool:Thinking outside the box is good, but there are additional important questions to ask.

Will this destroy the box? Am I physically located inside the box? Is my additional ammunition also inside the box? Is the box preventing a cave in?

In short, a bazooka is an outdoor toy. Unless you mean, the bazooka (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bazooka_(instrument)) is for the bard.

facw

2021-07-21, 02:07 PM

And what if Glamdring was a light saber?

https://youtu.be/ckScH-rNtwo?t=50

toodeep

2021-07-21, 05:39 PM

what she really needed to get was an umbrella. Once you have that disrupting line of effect she could have gotten anything else she wanted.

Dion

2021-07-21, 11:30 PM

what she really needed to get was an umbrella. Once you have that disrupting line of effect she could have gotten anything else she wanted.

I doubt an umbrella blocks anti magic.

But I’m not sure if there’s an official table of materials and effects describing what stops what. I think you just have to guess.

Like:

Stone blocks fire
Lead blocks detection
Umbrella blocks anti magic
Etc…

danielxcutter

2021-07-21, 11:39 PM

Dion

2021-07-22, 12:05 AM

There's always the classical "magically shrunken lead cone worn as a hat" trick that people mention in the optimization boards. AMF shuts off the Shrink Item so it covers you and breaks LoE so you teleport away, or something like that.

Hmm... that seems iffy.

I agree the cone shouldn't go through cover. But cover seems to only apply if a line goes through a line that "blocks the effect".

But what evidence do we have that lead blocks an anti-magic effect?

Anyhow, wouldn't the adventurers be better off if they just paid a million commoners to follow them around with lead sheets? Then the commoners could simply use the commoner rail gun to hastily assemble a lead house in one round around the adventurers if anything goes south.

danielxcutter

2021-07-22, 12:11 AM

Hmm... that seems iffy.

I agree the cone shouldn't go through cover. But cover seems to only apply if a line goes through a line that "blocks the effect".

But what evidence do we have that lead blocks an anti-magic effect?

Anyhow, wouldn't the adventurers be better off if they just paid a million commoners to follow them around with lead sheets? Then the commoners could simply use the commoner rail gun to hastily assemble a lead house in one round around the adventurers if anything goes south.

It's not really about the lead I think, it's more about the cone was originally so big that it'd cover you entirely and you make it into a hat with Shrink Item. The AMF makes it go back to the original size, so it completely covers you and blocks line of effect.

ff7hero

2021-07-22, 12:15 AM

danielxcutter

2021-07-22, 12:23 AM

IIRC (my days of 3.5 optimization are long behind me), any shrunken cone worn as a hat will work to block the effect of AMF. I think lead is traditionally used so that once the Shrink Item is suppressed you're also protected from other spells that are blocked by lead.

It's also probably stronger than something like paper or fabric, which might buy you the time to 'port out before they break your hat.

toodeep

2021-07-22, 07:54 AM

I doubt an umbrella blocks anti magic.

But I’m not sure if there’s an official table of materials and effects describing what stops what. I think you just have to guess.

Like:

Stone blocks fire
Lead blocks detection
Umbrella blocks anti magic
Etc…

With beholders and the magic literally coming from their eyes, anything physical blocking line of site blocks line of effect has always been my understanding. The lead hat idea wouldn't work because it is worn and thus part of you - when you get hit everything part of "you" for saving throw purposes (i.e. everything worn and carried) gets shut down too, so its not like any magic items you have on your back keep working when you get hit from the front. But if the party huddled up to give Belkar enough cover he might be able to get his bag open, but with the Beholder above them aiming approximately straight down, that is hard to do.

Last_Riot

2021-07-22, 08:30 AM

With beholders and the magic literally coming from their eyes, anything physical blocking line of site blocks line of effect has always been my understanding. The lead hat idea wouldn't work because it is worn and thus part of you - when you get hit everything part of "you" for saving throw purposes (i.e. everything worn and carried) gets shut down too, so its not like any magic items you have on your back keep working when you get hit from the front. But if the party huddled up to give Belkar enough cover he might be able to get his bag open, but with the Beholder above them aiming approximately straight down, that is hard to do.

What if the umbrella is reflective and made of lead?

Dion

2021-07-22, 08:33 AM

What if the umbrella is reflective and made of lead?

What if it’s a tiny little umbrella with enlarge object cast on it, and it gets tiny in an anti magic field?

Last_Riot

2021-07-22, 08:43 AM

Does Daylight create UV radiation? If so, why does it waste energy generating non-visible parts of the spectrum?

Well, if it didn't do the whole spectrum, then it'd just be Light, right?

I'll admit to fishing around for the boring answer (if I was more creative, there'd be a fun answer). But I would say being fussy about he laws of thermodynamics is more important in this case than 99% of magical non-sense. This is applying an infinite force to a PC's body in a game that generally contrives to make PCs durable and give a chance to avoid serious damage.

Tesla talked about tapping into cosmic energies, which sounded (and still kinda does) like magic.

We are just now starting to see wireless chargers. But we've been harnessing these cosmic energies for a while, now: solar pannels, radios, wifi, satellite phones, all examples of old tech "creating" something "out of thin air".

Now think about what happens when you mix corn starch and water. Without pressure, the right solution will be pretty fluid. Apply a bit of pressure, such as clenching it in your hand or stepping on it, and suddenly it becomes (mostly) solid.

Magic is really not much of a stretch from real-world physics. The right motions with the right catalysts drawing upon existing intangible forces to produce fantastical effects is pretty close to some recent and upcoming tech.

In other words... does magic break conservation of energy? Well, only if you want it to, rules can plausibly be made so that magic doesn't actually break conservation of energy. There are so many weird physics rules we still barely understand, and presumably much we still don't understand, saying a fantasy setting has a ton of energy magicians can tap into with the proper know-how without actually breaking conservation of energy is quite acceptable in my book.

Quizatzhaderac

2021-07-22, 09:26 AM

In other words... does magic break conservation of energy? Well, only if you want it to....My point was that we don't want conservation of energy broken here, specifically because it has an impact on the narrative we don't like (no save dismemberment form a novel, on the spot rules interpretation).

What if it’s a tiny little umbrella with enlarge object cast on it, and it gets tiny in an anti magic field?Well, I suppose the depends if the antimagic field undoes purify water. Will the water turn back into a cocktail?

Riftwolf

2021-07-22, 10:30 AM

Well, if it didn't do the whole spectrum, then it'd just be Light, right?

'Light as Bright as Sunlight But Functionally Different in Its Electromagnetic Wave Array' took up too much space in the spellbook.

Tesla talked about tapping into cosmic energies, which sounded (and still kinda does) like magic.

Tesla= Original Captain Marvel?

Last_Riot

2021-07-22, 11:12 AM

'Light as Bright as Sunlight But Functionally Different in Its Electromagnetic Wave Array' took up too much space in the spellbook. ?

Or, you know... "Light, Greater". :P Or "Light, Brighter"

I mean, they didn't name it "Darkness of the New Moon Night with Heavy Couldcover" They just called it "Deeper Darkness".

skim172

2021-07-22, 01:44 PM

Does Daylight create UV radiation? If so, why does it waste energy generating non-visible parts of the spectrum?

Wow. Way to be humanocentric there. What about other fantasy species that can perceive UV wavelengths? Why should the Daylight spell not accommodate their senses? Maybe they're only capable of perceiving UV wavelengths.

I mean, take Sunny the (Legally Distinct from) Beholder, for example - this individual has nine eyes of different sizes, each capable of individual movement and direction, which can also biologically alter themselves to become organs that emit rays of magical power. It would be extremely improbable that such a creature would have evolved similar visual perception and processing capabilities as a human being. It is entirely possible that this species can't perceive "visible light" as we so species-centrically label the EM spectrum between 310-1100 nanometers.

And look at our friends, the dwarves. Dwarves evolved to live underground - evolutionarily, it would be odd for them to develop eyes at all like a human being's. Most likely, Dwarves' eyes are mainly vestigial and their primary sensory perception is via their whiskers, like moles. This explains why they have such lush beards. Their eyes are probably just basic sensors and all their brain's visual cortex has been entirely rewired to perceive the world entirely with their beards, in such rich detail that it is indistinct from human visual perception.

(In fact, their beard-senses are so good that no one has yet realized it. The dwarves believe that the word "vision" is simply the surface-dwellers' word for beard-sense, and have yet to realize that the humans use their EM radiation-detecting orbs for anything significant.)