Nonmagical melee build that takes advantage of good all-around ability scores?

[47948201]

Between some really solid rolls and a silly anthropomorphic animal race from Savage Species, I'm looking at 19 strength, 20 dexterity, 16 constitution, 17 intelligence, 14 wisdom, and 12 charisma (2 RHDs, LA+2). I've never seen such all-around good stats at base, so I want to use them to make a lightning bruiser type build, with heavy hits but also good evasion (versus both regular attacks and AoEs, and I really don't want to use up a ring slot on evasion because they have other very important rings to wear in this campaign)--and, importantly for character reasons--has no supernatural, spell-like, or spellcasting (or psi-like/psionic/etc) features, but I'm not really sure how to accomplish it. (don't worry i am using other magic items, these are the only nonmagical restrictions i'm putting on myself)

I thought about getting really dip-happy, monk 2 fighter 2 ranger 2 warblade 2 swordsage 2... That'd give a lot of versatility, and some pretty nasty combos (...at high levels) But as far as I can tell, RHDs aren't technically "class levels" (and level adjustments definitely aren't), so I'd be really behind on maneuvers, turning it into kind of a game of chicken with how long I'm willing to wait to get those mid-level maneuvers but also survive to get to that point.

I also figured, maybe I can just go kinda straight warblade, with a touch of ranger and master thrower for some full-BAB reflex evasion stuff (ranger is favored, so no need to deal with multiclass penalties for dipping monk or the constant drain on BAB and initiator level that equal parts warblade-and-rogue would be (though maybe that's a viable build too, using warblade to get off tons of attacks that all have that sneak attack bonus?) but I'm not sure if the offensive power is really any better than the other approach, what with master thrower's feat tax and the lack of full-strength unarmed strikes during Tiger Claw maneuvers.

Maybe ToB isn't even the way. Dervish is a thing that... Exists. There's also war hulk which can fill as few or as many levels as needed without incurring multiclass penalties, but with those ability scores I don't exactly want to dump mental skills either.

No UA so no "additional favored class", and no prestige classes that rely on an organization or location that's specific to one setting.

So... Yeah, I dunno. Just spamming Power Attack + Emerald Razor? Maybe wait for Decisive Strike + Dancing Mongoose? Perhaps there's some way to reposition yourself to make lite charges every turn? Decisive Strike + Robilar's Gambit + Wall of Blades/Baffling Defense? Death from Above + Hit-and-Run Tactics + rogue sneak attack + Assassin's Stance + Shadow Blade + Craven? Kinda goes without saying, but the more involved the combo, the higher the level it'll be available at, and it's important to be able to get to those high levels in one piece, too.

I'm not trying to compete with uberchargers in terms of "heavy hits" or savage progression ghosts in terms of "not taking damage", just wondering what sort of approach (from things similar to what I've said, to maybe even something I never would've thought of?) would give something most likely to A-not die and B-help deal melee damage, both at low and mid-to-maybe-high levels.

tl;dr i have high str and dex, can i turn that into big damage and big dodges without magic and without needing to wait through levels of suckiness for a build to "come online"

[H_H_F_F]

I feel lime we're missing some info. What would you like the build to be able to do? What ECL does the campaign start at? What are you getting from your race? If it's mainly there for fluff reasons, could you perhaps convince your DM to refluff an exisisting 0 LA anthro animal, instead of swallowing 4 ECL?

Are you married to your current ability score allocation, ir would you consider switching some things up?

[47948201]

Honestly as someone who normally spends way more time planning out builds than actually playing them, I kinda wanted to just jump in, without any specific task I wanted to excel at (I pretty much just had a character concept, dodgy melee dps (two-handed, sword+board, dual-wield, I was okay with any of those))... But now I'm realizing that maybe that was a little bit too aimless.

All the stats are from the anthropomorphic dog (which I guess was kinda a flavor thing since I could've gotten another +4 dex with basically no drawback by going cheetah or leopard)

In other words, it was never my intention to minmax in this campaign, but right now I'm less than 1000 XP from leveling up, and I don't even know which class I want to take first, which... Was probably an overcorrection on my part lol

(For what it's worth though everyone in the campaign has an LA of +1 or +2 so the overall encounter difficulty is toned down a bit, since it's understood at the table that for example the 2nd-level drow is definitely not the same as a real 4th-level character. If it helps, our optimization level is roughly intended to be SRD+PHBII+Completes (we're not limiting ourselves to just those books, but we're also trying not to bring an entire library to the table for each individual character))

[Vizzerdrix]

What ever you decide to do, a single level dip into cleric for travel Devotion is always super useful. It will also buy you a bit of time to settle on a build.

[ciopo]

First thing that comes to mind is making a composite bow +dead eye built, making you add both str and dex to your bow damage.

Perhabs a scout/ranger to make use of improved multishot maybe? Possibly with that feat/feature that let's you make AoO with the bow (I'm not 100% sure that's first party)

The high Int makes me want to have an "all class skills" from this or that source, maybe Savant?

[Efrate]

No magic otherwise I would say cloisterd cleric. Plus 3 int makes knowledge devotion an option. Might need something to get them as class skills. Consider straight warblade for minor int synergy.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

The feat Shadow Blade (ToB) lets you add both Str and Dex to damage with Shadow Hand school weapons. Maybe a Daring Outlaw build using Swashbuckler and Swordsage (and that stance that's name I forget that gives SA) instead of Rogue?

[JoeNapalm]

You know you're talking 3.5e when someone says "non-magical build" and most of the replies say "CLERIC!"

I second Shadow Hand, and Tome of Battle in general.

I'm currently running a no "magic"* melee build and ToB has a lot of fun stuff to let you hang with the cool kids.

(I mean, come on, by like 6th level they're going to be shaping reality itself to their will, while you're still just punching stuff really hard...but ToB lets you do it really hard and with style!)

My only other advice would be...you need to focus down. Whenever anyone at my table comes to me for build advice, it's generally a "I want to be good at this and this and THIS!" scenario.

I will give you the same talk I give them:

Look. It's 3.5e. If you want to be good at everything, play either a Wizard or CoDzilla.

If you don't want to be either of those, you can't be good at everything. Pick one thing. You can be really really good...at one thing.

It's a team sport (unless you're a Wizard or CoDzilla then whatever, the world is your oyster).


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

* -- ToB is going to let you do some pretty amazing things that aren't "magical" but are clearly superpowers.

[Vizzerdrix]

You know you're talking 3.5e when someone says "non-magical build" and most of the replies say "CLERIC!

That would be because 3.5 hates mundanes and travel devotion fixes a huge problem non casters have.

[LunaticChaos]

Honestly looking at your stat load out and race selection I'd be thinking going more for a brawler archetype.
Get yourself improved unarmed strike (as you're getting a feat this level as racial hit dice do indeed count for that) and superior unarmed strike via some means.
Going Lion Totem Barbarian to give yourself pounce so you can take advantage of being able the charge and then do a full attack with multiple attacks sounds like a good idea here to increase your mobility. Especially given if I've read Anthro animals correctly you have a bite attack that really deserves to get used every possible turn
Going into the Two Weapon Fighting Tree also sounds useful for this sort of thing.

These two are being quoted as no idea if your dm will allow but food for thought for this build as they'll also make for a stronger build going this route and don't really need you to bring the info every session as its quick and easy to just write down what they do.

1) If Dragon Magazine is allowed you can also knock out two birds with one stone, as Dragon Magazine 349 has an ACF for Barbarians that lets you trade your martial weapon, medium armor, and shield proficiencies in exchange for Improved Unarmed Strike (bonus feat, so it also frees up your 3 hd feat slot) and a class ability that acts as two-weapon fighting, and then improves at level 6 to improved two-weapon fighting and improves again at level 11 to greater two-weapon fighting (It should be noted you don't actually GAIN those two-weapon feats, its a class ability that only works while unarmed). Of course just one level of barbarian is adequate for what you'd be wanting here.
2) If you don't plant to go heavy into Barbarian or its prestige classes switching out your Rage for Ferocity (which boosts Str and Dex instead of Str and Con) is a good option to capitalize on your advantages already (it is a Cityscape web enhancement).

From there you could pick up a couple levels of fighter to get some needed feats with no multiclass penalties before heading into Prestige Classes.
You're not going to be hitting like a truck like a shocktrooper pounce charger, but this would be a good baseline to build up into something that is mobile and hits for pretty decent damage.
One option is to pick up martial stance feat as a fighter bonus feat to get a shadow hand stance (Island of Blades given you don't want supernatural abilities) then get Shadow Blade once you can as unarmed strikes do benefit from this.

[liquidformat]

So what we got as the base: Anthro Dog (2 RHDs, LA+2) 19 str, 20 dex, 16 con, 17 int, 14 wis, and 12 cha

Monk 2/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Swashbuckler 3/Fist of the Forest 3/Unarmed Swordsage x
I would take Carmendine Monk, Shadow Blade, Superior Unarmed Strike, Snap Kick; I would say these are your four key feats. You get Int, Dex, Con, and Wis scores to AC; dex, int, and str to damage, and either str or dex to hit.
This one is probably your best choice if you really want to focus on getting your biggest bang out of your ability scores.

Doing something like a punishment/power dervish could be an interesting but very feat intense build, it also doesn't do much with your ability scores
Whirling rage lion spirit totem and wolf totem barbarian 2 (giving pounce and improved trip)/Fighter 2/Scout 4-5/Dervish 9-10
Feats: Expeditious Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Guisarme), Knockdown, Combat Reflexes, Deft Opportunist, Karmic Strike, Short Haft.

One of my favorites which toes the 'magic' line is the following:
Bear Totem City Brawler Barbarian 3/Wild shape Ranger 5/Fist of the Forest 2/Primeval (Dire Puma) X/Warshaper Y/swordsage Z
By taking Bear Totem City Brawler Barbarian and Ranger you get 4 out of six prerequisite feats for FotF and Prime and as such only need to take self-sufficient and power attack, besides that investing in Extra Rage is worth while along with extra wild shape and Fast Wild Shape. Beast Strike, snap kick, Superior Unarmed Strike, and Primeval Wild shape are all worth while. I really like taking Vow of Poverty with this build but that two feat investment is a bit rough to swallow, it would be much better if there were more worthwhile exalted feats or if you are getting bonus feats in your game or if you have a better homebrew version of VoP.
Unless you can convince your DM to let you take smilodon as your primeval form since you are delaying the primeval entry I would go with Dire Puma it has the most bang for your buck; pounce, improved grab, rake, climb speed, and very good ability bonuses (Dire lion is good too but slightly worse). In this build I would switch your Wis and Int rolls since regression tanks your int score and improve your wis.
There is a bit of a juggling act going on here between primeval and warshaper levels since warshaper gives some very nice utility with moprhic weapons, immunities and healing but primeval gives you more uses per day of primeval form and more ability boosts. If you are going to take swordsage levels at all I would suggest taking at least two to get access to wis to ac and take them at 9th level or later on so you can get assassin's stance and shadow blade at the same time. While you can cut back to 3 levels of ranger or switch to two levels of fighter so you have more room in the build there is a question of whether wild shape feats work on Primeval form without wild shape ability so worth asking your dm before doing so. Finally I am always on the fence about taking FotF 3 since Primeval 5 already gives you scent but the unarmed damage bump and extra feral trance is nice too.

[pabelfly]

How committed are you to the Anthropromorphic Dog? If you went with Leopard or a Lion, I'd argue that you'd have Pounce for your character from the start. I'd say that's a much better deal for being delayed four levels before taking class levels.

I wouldn't worry overmuch about your high scores. It just means that you have slightly better stats in things that normally are bad to average in martial characters, like skill points, will save, charisma, etc.

My suggestion - if you're sticking with your Dog, since you're playing with Favored Class penalties, you could go a Swift Hunter build. You get Skirmish damage, lots of skill points, and you get to make use of Swift Hunter to do skirmish damage against foes that normally don't get skirmish damage, like undead. Trade the spellcasting you don't want for four bonus feats. If Dragon Magazine material gets considered, see if you can get Solitary, (trade your animal companion to get your Favored Enemy bonus to your attack rolls).

[Maat Mons]

One staple melee style that tends to want many good ability scores is tripping. You want good Strength for the opposed checks, good Dexterity to have lots of attacks of opportunity available, good Constitution because everyone needs that, and at least 13 Intelligence to meet prerequisites. You can't really dump Wisdom either, since you're not going to have a good base Will save progression. So the only ability score a tripper can afford to dump is Charisma.

The usual solution for being able to charge every round is Travel Devotion. But all devotion feats, unless otherwise noted, are spell-like abilities. So that's not going to work with your non-magical requirement. Sudden Leap or Boots of the Battle Charger would let move away from an enemy and then charge him in the same round, but those can only be used so often.

I'm tempted to suggest Paladin, because dogs are inherently loyal, protective creatures. And because "Pala-dog" is a fantastic pun. But even if you go with one of the spell-less Paladin variants, the class is just chock-full of supernatural and spell-like elements. In particular, Divine Grace, also known as "the only reason most people take Paladin levels," is supernatural.

I was also, for a moment, excited to suggest Moon-Warded Ranger. Dogs have a thing with the moon, after all. And at 2nd level it gives +Wis to AC when wearing light armor or no armor. That's pretty nice for a high-Dexterity character who also has good mental ability scores. But, alas, that too is a supernatural ability.

[liquidformat]

One staple melee style that tends to want many good ability scores is tripping. You want good Strength for the opposed checks, good Dexterity to have lots of attacks of opportunity available, good Constitution because everyone needs that, and at least 13 Intelligence to meet prerequisites. You can't really dump Wisdom either, since you're not going to have a good base Will save progression. So the only ability score a tripper can afford to dump is Charisma.
I mean this is why Trippers often have Barbarian dips, rather than dealing with an otherwise worthless feat (Cmobat Expertise) you take Wolf Totem Substitution levels. Better yet Being a wolf totem Barbarian is thematically great for an anthro dog. Better still, also take the Wolf Berzerker feat from UE and get a +4 bonus to trip attacks and again thematically goes along with being a canine. I could see hopping into bloodstorm blade or bloodclaw master as interesting prcs for dog themed build...

[tiercel]

A straight-up Daring Outlaw build with a splash of (unarmed) swordsage could give Str, Dex, Int, and SA (boosted by Assassin’s Stance) to damage along with a few ToB strikes or boosts, plus Wis to AC.

Zorrodog!

[JoeNapalm]

That would be because 3.5 hates mundanes and travel devotion fixes a huge problem non casters have.

Oh, I get why...I just think it's amusing.

The very first Cleric a player ran in my 3.0 campaign was a Barbarian/Cleric with Travel...

...this being before 3.5 came along and reduced buff durations by an order of magnitude.

Literally flew around all day, buffed to the gills in Hulk mode, taking lunch money from Nightgaunts.

Go go CoDzilla!


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[H_H_F_F]

I'd like to mention you could also go for a classic THF build (barbarian, warblade, fighter, whatever) and utilize your high Dex for an AOO build, going for robilar's gambit or something.

[Silly Name]

Just for clarity, how "nonmagical" are we talking? Are classes with SLAs and Supernatural abilities ok, or do you want to stick purely to feats and Ex abilities?

[Darg]

Go Bloodclaw Master getting two-weapon rend feat from PHB2. Lots of rend damage. Get the Reaping talons feat and you can do some serious damage while boosting survivability.

[47948201]

Lots of really good ideas in here! There are a few I'm strongly considering either adapting or just using straight up.

For clarity: This character will have no supernatural, spell-like, spellcasting, psi-like, or psionic abilities. So for example, SRD Ranger 3 or Complete Warrior Ranger 6, with all their bonus feats and extraordinary abilities, are on the table (though realistically I doubt I'd take that many levels in Ranger), whereas Moon-Touched Ranger 3 with its supernatural ability, or SRD Ranger 6 with its spellcasting, are not.

[Piggy Knowles]

What about something like this (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?605872-Optimization-Showcase-in-the-Playground-Legend-of-the-Drunken-Master)? (For those who don't feel like clicking through, it links to Legend of the Drunken Master, a mobility-focused monk/warblade.) If you expect to get all the way up to level 20, I may recommend dropping battle trickster to account for your two racial HD so that you can still finish with war master's charge, assuming you can buy off your 2 LA.