Can ancient civilizations stop making a mess for 5 damn minutes?

[Samoja1]

It's always the same, they play around with things they don't understand, they make a mess of things, and instead of dealing with it they just sweep it under the carpet for a few millenia until it inevitably breaks out and then someone else has to clean up after them. I wish they stopped.

[Fyraltari]

It's always the same, they play around with things they don't understand, they make a mess of things, and instead of dealing with it they just sweep it under the carpet for a few millenia until it inevitably breaks out and then someone else has to clean up after them. I wish they stopped.

Ancient civilizations did stop!
Current ones, though...

[Samoja1]

Ancient civilizations did stop!
Current ones, though...

There's more of them, always more. Seems like every fantasy world had infinite number of ancient civilizations leave infinite number of sealed evils in a can.

[halfeye]

There's more of them, always more. Seems like every fantasy world had infinite number of ancient civilizations leave infinite number of sealed evils in a can.

Where else is an author going to find an easy story?

[Anonymouswizard]

Where else is an author going to find an easy story?

Hubristic wizards summoning things bigger than their heads?

[Imbalance]

You can't future proof a warning label.

[warty goblin]

A lot of the time it's not the ancient civilization's fault, they sealed their unspeakable evil away in some geographically hostile spot, put all kinds of wards around it, added some traps, and created lots of scary folklore about it warning everyone with three neurons to rub together to stay the hell away. And everything's groovy for like 3000 years, then somebody gets a bad case of Protagonitis (of either the heroic or villainous variety) and wakes the damn thing up.

Clearly the problem is lax modern parenting, failing to prevent children from playing on or around ruins when everyone knows you can set off the Fifteenth Demon War that way.

[Scarlet Knight]

Really, what's a parent to do?

I blame the Bards, always pushing the "off to find fame, fortune, and glory" stories, with hidden temples and forgotten gods. No wonder kids today only think about getting their hands on the latest I-of-Vecna...

[Willie the Duck]

It's always the same, they play around with things they don't understand, they make a mess of things, and instead of dealing with it they just sweep it under the carpet for a few millenia until it inevitably breaks out and then someone else has to clean up after them. I wish they stopped.


There's more of them, always more. Seems like every fantasy world had infinite number of ancient civilizations leave infinite number of sealed evils in a can.

Now, now-- it's not that they can't stop doing it for 5 minutes, nor that there's always more of them. It's just that--well, if there's one thing from a 5,000-year-old fallen civilization that is going to happen to survive to the present day (to be opened by some unwitting treasure-seeker), it's going to be some kind of sealed evil in a can. If you actually went back in time (by the way, don't do that--we have the documentation, you don't enjoy it) and surveyed all the cans, practically none of them are sealed evil, proportionately speaking.

[warty goblin]

Really, what's a parent to do?

I blame the Bards, always pushing the "off to find fame, fortune, and glory" stories, with hidden temples and forgotten gods. No wonder kids today only think about getting their hands on the latest I-of-Vecna...

I mean when I was a kid, unleashing the apocalypse was nothing compared to the trouble I'd get into if I was caught within a country mile of the Sepulchre of the Dark Moon. We just need parents to remember they aren't members of their kids' party of quirky and talented outcasts with strange and unlikely destinies, and enforce some discipline.

But we should probably throw some money at after school programs as well. If they're in the classroom, they aren't waking up the dragon slumbering in the Firefang Caverns after all. Just some basic lessons like don't steal things from dragons, secret evil cults, or the long-buried tombs of ancient wizards. Also assume any subterranean openings you discover lead to a dragon/cult/wizard trapped between life and death. Or that the sword/gem/statuette you just unearthed is not your friend no matter what the voices in your head have started whispering. And always remember kids, Blood Magic is the ultimate party foul.

[Bartmanhomer]

The title of this thread is making me laugh. :biggrin:

[Lemmy]

It's not that ancient civilizations release great evils... It's the other way around. Civilizations that release great evils don't survive long enough to become modern ones.

[Khedrac]

It's not that ancient civilizations release great evils... It's the other way around. Civilizations that release great evils don't survive long enough to become modern ones.

Agreed. That and the title of the thread should be something more like "Can these upstart 'modern' civilizations stop digging up our lawns and make a mess for 5 minutes?"
In most cases the ancient civilization left the ancient evil safely buried, it's the modern ones that go around releasing them!

[Chronos]

The part I can't understand is, the ancient civilizations, far more advanced than our own, weren't able to destroy the evil, just seal it away. So what happens? We modern folk find the sealed evil, and proceed to destroy it. Why couldn't they have just done that in the first place? It wasn't so hard.

[Imbalance]

The thing about civilizations from antiquity is how bereft they were of hindsight.

[Khedrac]

The part I can't understand is, the ancient civilizations, far more advanced than our own, weren't able to destroy the evil, just seal it away. So what happens? We modern folk find the sealed evil, and proceed to destroy it. Why couldn't they have just done that in the first place? It wasn't so hard.

Usually because they may have been culturally or magically more advanced, but they were also more localized and usually technologically less advanced, thus they didn't have access to the requirements to destroy it.

[InvisibleBison]

The part I can't understand is, the ancient civilizations, far more advanced than our own, weren't able to destroy the evil, just seal it away. So what happens? We modern folk find the sealed evil, and proceed to destroy it. Why couldn't they have just done that in the first place? It wasn't so hard.

Because the first step in destroying these sort of evils is to seal them away for thousands of years.

[Samoja1]

Agreed. That and the title of the thread should be something more like "Can these upstart 'modern' civilizations stop digging up our lawns and make a mess for 5 minutes?"
In most cases the ancient civilization left the ancient evil safely buried, it's the modern ones that go around releasing them!

Safely burried in a leaky container, and then they leave all this warning signs that great and evil force is resting here, which just serve to attract every two bit villain with a grain of ambition like moths to the flame. There would be no issue if their containers were solid and they didn't tell everyone and their mother not to press the big red button. I mean seriously, when you do that someone will press it just to see what happens. Besides, if they didn't create/released it in the first place we would not have this problem.

[halfeye]

Sometimes it just sort of happens:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-864

There's a big hoard of mercury leaking off Norway from WW2, it was supposed to be sent from Germany to Japan, but it was sunk.

[Lemmy]

Because the first step in destroying these sort of evils is to seal them away for thousands of years.
Makes sense... The Great Evils have to suffering of severe atrophy of their metaphysical muscles in order to be killable.

Also, sometimes it's sheer coincidence (or destiny) that whatever artifact, ability or condition happens to exist in the modern world...

And that's not counting the times when the weapon was indeed created by the ancient civilization, but too late to be used (e.g.: the Great Evil had already killed everyone able to use the mystical artifact created by the last scientist/archmage of said civilization).

Besides... Let's be honest: All civilizations end, sooner or later... So might as well go in a badass way, being devoured by C'thulu in a starless night.

[warty goblin]

Most of the time ancient civilizations seem to have been unable to destroy whatever evil they had created/unleashed since there's a very specific prophecy about who can destroy said evil, and the conditions weren't met at the time. Thus containment was the only option. Which is really pretty impressive since they usually manage to contain the evil entity without prophecy on their side, they just had to win through pure grit and badassery. Your present day mewling chosen one just needs to get their ass to right spot and feel some feels, way easier.

However, since there's no records of chosen ones destroying evil according to prophesy in the ancient past, we can conclude that chosen one-ness is probably heritable and coded for by multiple genes. Once an individual is born with enough chosen one genes, they activate or slot into a prophesy. This large concentration of "destiny genes" is unlikely to be naturally occurring, and is probably explicitly selected for by some external force. Elves, wizards, and other long lived beings are likely suspects.

In other words the world keeps getting saved because a couple of meddling matchmakers have been setting up people on dates for the last few hundred years.

[Imbalance]

A high occurrence of statisticians must be a sign of an ancient civilization's impending demise, who are able to frame recorded prophecy in intentionally vague terms, thus increasing the odds that eventually the requirements set forth for "the One" will fit somebody.

[warty goblin]

A high occurrence of statisticians must be a sign of an ancient civilization's impending demise, who are able to frame recorded prophecy in intentionally vague terms, thus increasing the odds that eventually the requirements set forth for "the One" will fit somebody.

Indeed. I covered both Theoretical and Applied Prophesy Incoherence in grad school for exactly this reason. Our understanding has advanced so much since the computational prophesy revolution of the 1990s, it's why you so seldom see prophesies about seventh sons of seventh sons anymore, because those are really hard to pull off. Really even something like Harry Potter is poor form, these days a prophesy with only one alternate will get you kicked straight out of the room.

[Ionathus]

The part I can't understand is, the ancient civilizations, far more advanced than our own, weren't able to destroy the evil, just seal it away. So what happens? We modern folk find the sealed evil, and proceed to destroy it. Why couldn't they have just done that in the first place? It wasn't so hard.

The only logical conclusion is that the ancient civilizations weren't using the right power sources. They hadn't yet learned to harness love and/or the power of friendship, which are much more efficient and plentiful. They were still burning through cheap nonrenewable energy sources, like Vagueness, Foreboding, and Condescension.

[Scarlet Knight]

The only logical conclusion is that the ancient civilizations weren't using the right power sources. They hadn't yet learned to harness love and/or the power of friendship, which are much more efficient and plentiful. They were still burning through cheap nonrenewable energy sources, like Vagueness, Foreboding, and Condescension.

Except that one that used the power of love, but the workers left their posts after rushing the seal with a "Good Enough!" because they were missing the bacchanalia...

[Fyraltari]

Except that one that used the power of love, but the workers left their posts after rushing the seal with a "Good Enough!" because they were missing the bacchanalia...

https://s1.qwant.com/thumbr/0x380/b/5/13d90b13d14604d038666d04f4f9c8e6b92973781bdfb7989f 38df28aeed0a/maxresdefault.jpg?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi %2FhhiTV5OQlOY%2Fmaxresdefault.jpg&q=0&b=1&p=0&a=0

[JeenLeen]

The only logical conclusion is that the ancient civilizations weren't using the right power sources. They hadn't yet learned to harness love and/or the power of friendship, which are much more efficient and plentiful. They were still burning through cheap nonrenewable energy sources, like Vagueness, Foreboding, and Condescension.

I would love making a mostly serious game where, near-end, the players find out the ancient evils were sealed by the Forces of Vagueness, Foreboding, etc.
HA! I could see the Wards of Vagueness failing as scientific progress advances in an area as people investigate why it is considered taboo. The Wards of Foreboding fail as people forget to tell the warnings or care about a place being taboo.

---------------------------

In a WoD game I was in, we at one time asked a powerful, very-well-informed NPC why he wasn't helping us save the world, as he was so powerful and we some fledgling Mages. His reply was something like, "Do you have any idea how often the world is almost destroyed? Just a couple months ago, some neonate vampires stopped an Antedeluvian from awaking and killing half of North America."

Apocalypse of the Week.

[Tvtyrant]

It's always the same, they play around with things they don't understand, they make a mess of things, and instead of dealing with it they just sweep it under the carpet for a few millenia until it inevitably breaks out and then someone else has to clean up after them. I wish they stopped.
I like to believe the horrible threats do actually get weaker and we can kill then because they were locked up. That is one of my favorite Lovecraft stories, where the Race kills a bunch of Horrors but then their ghosts stick around. The Race goes forward in time to the point where the ghosts have faded out entirely and live then instead.

[Anonymouswizard]

I like to believe the horrible threats do actually get weaker and we can kill then because they were locked up. That is one of my favorite Lovecraft stories, where the Race kills a bunch of Horrors but then their ghosts stick around. The Race goes forward in time to the point where the ghosts have faded out entirely and live then instead.

I'm also a fan of 'weapons technology advanced'. It doesn't work in every story, but the idea that the great evil was sealed during the stone or bronze eras but now we've got very powerful explosives appeals to me.

Although I also like it when the horror was killed and got brought back to life. One of my PC groups were planning to revive a dragon to terrorise people with a fire breathing monster. The game fell apart before they learnt why they were all slain in the first place (it's first acts would have resulted in the flooding of London via torrential rain).