soul splicing and how it works

[WolvesbaneIII]

How does soul splicing work?

Is itdistinct in that only mages can use it? or can you splice a fighter to another fighter and he has his skills?

when casting does the mage take the levels and stats of the spliced one, or is it cast from their stats of the one in control?

can you splice a mage onto a warrior supposing he has the stats to pull off the spells?

lastly, are there certain other ways to pull off a soul splice? other reader suggested RC could splice xykons soul to him if he were in the phylactory. home brew or statted for vanilla dnd?

[Morty]

The only person who could possibly answer these questions is the Giant, assuming he actually considered such details. Otherwise, all the information available about splicing is contained in the comic. It's not anything that exists in any D&D material.

[Riftwolf]

From what we've seen, soul splice only allows access to spells. It doesn't do anything to saves, skills or anything else. It requires will saves/concentration checks to maintain when under stress, ie when Inky yelled at V and when Xykon hit V with a wall. Although spliced souls can't be targeted, they take level drain as if targeted individually.
There's enough info about soul splices to homebrew a version. If it's been done though, it'll be on the homebrew forum, not here.

[WolvesbaneIII]

so its unique to oots?

cool. this answers one of my questions then. So RC could research the ability and plot its way into the plot, and V can feel worse in the vein he empowered the enemy to their plan working better than if he had done nothing. potentially any way.

[InvisibleBison]

so its unique to oots?

Yes, it's something the Giant made up.


cool. this answers one of my questions then. So RC could research the ability and plot its way into the plot, and V can feel worse in the vein he empowered the enemy to their plan working better than if he had done nothing. potentially any way.

This seems unlikely. Redcloak already knew about soul splices before his encounter with spliced Vaarsuvius, and Xykon has the souls of two powerful spellcasters locked in a gem somewhere. If it was possible for Redcloak to figure out how to perform a soul splice on his own, I suspect he'd already have done so.

[Lord Torath]

so its unique to oots?

cool. this answers one of my questions then. So RC could research the ability and plot its way into the plot, and V can feel worse in the vein he empowered the enemy to their plan working better than if he had done nothing. potentially any way.Redcloak already knew about soul splices (Panel 11 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)). If he was willing to use one, he'd have done it already.

[RatElemental]

I'm guessing Nero, Lee and Cedrik were able to initiate a soul splice because they actually had rightful claim on the souls (or their bosses did). But pretty much any speculation on the actual mechanics of soul splicing is just that, speculation.

[WolvesbaneIII]

yeah, I don't deny that RC knows of it, but maybe he didn't know how useful it really was. so he saw it in action vs just "hearing of it".

he might even improve it if his god has enough plot power of the purple mojo, ya know?

or it was just a 1 off thing and we'll never see it again outside of a few references.

[Mike Havran]

yeah, I don't deny that RC knows of it, but maybe he didn't know how useful it really was. so he saw it in action vs just "hearing of it".

he might even improve it if his god has enough plot power of the purple mojo, ya know?

or it was just a 1 off thing and we'll never see it again outside of a few references.
The last one, I believe. I think the spliced soul has to be willing to be a part of splice so it's hard pass to think Reddie could splice himself Dorukan (provided Xykon would even allow such thing, which I strongly doubt).

[WolvesbaneIII]

The last one, I believe. I think the spliced soul has to be willing to be a part of splice so it's hard pass to think Reddie could splice himself Dorukan (provided Xykon would even allow such thing, which I strongly doubt).

Are they willing? we don't know that for sure do we? they were granted from the evil planes. I'd think it was a punishment. they all left as soon as the will check was failed. if I were willing to do something like that, I'd want to stick around and re-link, but then again they are generic evil people. maybe they were promised something in return for the work, and didn't care what happens after the fact.

well, its a home brew thing. the details are up to the giant.

[Morty]

If they weren't willing, then the IFCC still had rightful dominion over their souls according to the rules of afterlife. Redcloak has no such thing. I personally predict the Soul Splices were a one and done thing for the sole purpose of enabling Vaarsuvius' power trip and its disastrous consequences, so anything there is to know about them is right there on the comic pages. But maybe I'll be surprised.

[Brumagris]

If they weren't willing, then the IFCC still had rightful dominion over their souls according to the rules of afterlife. Redcloak has no such thing. I personally predict the Soul Splices were a one and done thing for the sole purpose of enabling Vaarsuvius' power trip and its disastrous consequences, so anything there is to know about them is right there on the comic pages. But maybe I'll be surprised.

I also believe that the splices were specific to V, however falling into elucubration, it would make strategic sense for Redcloack to:

Link his spellcasting nephew's soul to him, to be able to cast the ritual without Xykon

[Fyraltari]

If they weren't willing, then the IFCC still had rightful dominion over their souls according to the rules of afterlife. Redcloak has no such thing. I personally predict the Soul Splices were a one and done thing for the sole purpose of enabling Vaarsuvius' power trip and its disastrous consequences, so anything there is to know about them is right there on the comic pages. But maybe I'll be surprised.

I guess theoritically, and if Redcloak is of a high enough level he could make a soul splice using the soul of a dead goblin in service to the Dark One.

But I agree with you that there doesn't seem to be a point to that narratively speaking, so I don't see another soul splice happening.

[Metastachydium]

I also believe that the splices were specific to V, however falling into elucubration, it would make strategic sense for Redcloack to:

Link his spellcasting nephew's soul to him, to be able to cast the ritual without Xykon

Now, that's one interesting idea, but there's the thing that nephew guy (Ridiziak?) didn't really have the time or means to reach a high enough level before his premature death.

[NerdyKris]

Panel 2 of 633 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html) seems to be saying that this is a unique ability due to their positions as representatives of their respective planes. They specify that it's one of the souls damned to their planes. They also call it a Once in a Century deal. It doesn't seem like something any mortal would have access to, and even if they did, they would seem to need to have dominion over that soul to splice it.

[ianm1981]

If you're looking for an in game mechanic to base it off. Id suggest you look at abstracting it as a 3.5 runestaff with a sentient magic item property.

Here borrow my staff with these spells/day I will only charge you a few minutes of your mortal soul.. oh but be careful the staff is sentient and doesn't like working for weak willed casters. Make sure you can concentrate on it properly or it will refuse to work. (it might also be evil and be really good at encouraging you to embrace your/its power)

Seems functionally equivalent to the soul splice mechanic. With a slight addition that it doesn't take up a hand slot.

[InvisibleBison]

Panel 2 of 633 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html) seems to be saying that this is a unique ability due to their positions as representatives of their respective planes.

I don't think this is correct. Yes, the IFCC can initiate soul splices because they are representatives of planar domains, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be a representative of a planar domain to initiate a soul splice.

[Hurkyl]

Panel 2 of 633 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html) seems to be saying that this is a unique ability due to their positions as representatives of their respective planes. They specify that it's one of the souls damned to their planes. They also call it a Once in a Century deal. It doesn't seem like something any mortal would have access to, and even if they did, they would seem to need to have dominion over that soul to splice it.
Given that they were in the middle of a high pressure sales pitch, I don't think that particular bit of information was reliable.

[Brumagris]

Now, that's one interesting idea, but there's the thing that nephew guy (Ridiziak?) didn't really have the time or means to reach a high enough level before his premature death.

Perhaps a stupid question... do we know what level does the arcane spellcaster need to be to execute the ritual? plus

As far as I recall, the splices did get XP from the encounters, right? the problem with V was that the effective level in his case, with 3 epic spellcasters linked to him, was too high. But, 1 lower level soul linked to RC, would more likely get a XP boost, wouldn't it?

[Fyraltari]

Perhaps a stupid question... do we know what level does the arcane spellcaster need to be to execute the ritual? plus

As far as I recall, the splices did get XP from the encounters, right? the problem with V was that the effective level in his case, with 3 epic spellcasters linked to him, was too high. But, 1 lower level soul linked to RC, would more likely get a XP boost, wouldn't it?

V gained XP (theoretically), nothing said the splices did.

[Mike Havran]

Panel 2 of 633 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html) seems to be saying that this is a unique ability due to their positions as representatives of their respective planes. They specify that it's one of the souls damned to their planes. They also call it a Once in a Century deal. It doesn't seem like something any mortal would have access to, and even if they did, they would seem to need to have dominion over that soul to splice it.I interpret it as the "unique opportunity" and "Once in a Century deal" refers to having three souls spliced simultaneously, not the splicing itself. If the splice alone was so extremely rare, Redcloak would have hard time making a Knowledge check about it.

[Morty]

Perhaps a stupid question... do we know what level does the arcane spellcaster need to be to execute the ritual? plus

As far as I recall, the splices did get XP from the encounters, right? the problem with V was that the effective level in his case, with 3 epic spellcasters linked to him, was too high. But, 1 lower level soul linked to RC, would more likely get a XP boost, wouldn't it?

It's not certain if Redcloak's nephew ever did manage to take even one level in wizard before he died.

[Ionathus]

The only person who could possibly answer these questions is the Giant, assuming he actually considered such details.

100% true...but that's never stopped us before!


I'm guessing Nero, Lee and Cedrik were able to initiate a soul splice because they actually had rightful claim on the souls (or their bosses did).

Yep, same. I don't think it's a thing you can pull off with any old trapped soul. And I also agree we're almost certain to never see it again in-comic.

But I do wonder: is this restricted to Evil alignments? I wonder if there are stories of Good gods enlisting their mightiest deceased champions to lend strength to an earthly hero. I could definitely see Thor sending a cleric soul-splice to one of his earthly clerics, for instance.


It's not certain if Redcloak's nephew ever did manage to take even one level in wizard before he died.

I was fairly certain that the...ahem...final panel he was in showed him with the glowy hands of a spellcaster. Maybe my memory's faulty.

[hungrycrow]

I interpret it as the "unique opportunity" and "Once in a Century deal" refers to having three souls spliced simultaneously, not the splicing itself. If the splice alone was so extremely rare, Redcloak would have hard time making a Knowledge check about it.

No, the once-in-a-century thing was just soul splicing itself. It apparently was extremely rare, and V was advised not to even bother looking it up. Doing three splices at once had never happened before at all, because the IFCC is the first time three fiends would work together to do it.

[WolvesbaneIII]

I also believe that the splices were specific to V, however falling into elucubration, it would make strategic sense for Redcloack to:

Link his spellcasting nephew's soul to him, to be able to cast the ritual without Xykon

ok, so we do have the fiends doing a soul splice, but whats to stop the purple one from researching the mechanics, reverse engineering it and making rc able to do it provided he has (plot element) on his side?

not that he would mind you, its likely we will never see it again. much like how trigak will never be seen again.

[Fyraltari]

I was fairly certain that the...ahem...final panel he was in showed him with the glowy hands of a spellcaster. Maybe my memory's faulty.

I just checked and your memory was correct, one of his hands is glowing and he's wearing a "wizard" robe.

[Metastachydium]

Perhaps a stupid question... do we know what level does the arcane spellcaster need to be to execute the ritual?


Not really. That said, we do know that pork! didn't do and neither did the browncloaks.

[Emanick]

Perhaps a stupid question... do we know what level does the arcane spellcaster need to be to execute the ritual?

Probably no higher than level 9. Redcloak and Xykon attacked Lirian’s Gate before Redcloak was high enough level to cast Heal, and I think it makes a decent amount of sense to assume that the level requirements for arcane and divine casters are the same.

[Riftwolf]

But I do wonder: is this restricted to Evil alignments?

The whole ownership and enslavement of the souls business suggests yes its an evil deal. While Thor/another good agent (remember it wasn't an evil God who greenlit Darth V) could theoretically do the splice with two willing clerics, it doesn't feel like a particularly good aligned thing to do.
Good alignments usually aren't in the business of tempting people into doing good. Good is its own reward, as they say. There's no good succubi, no good mephistopheles, no good equivalent to the devil's bargain. And if good clerics could get soul spliced with other good clerics for double good cleric juiced in goodness with no repercussion other than net good, it would probably happen more often.
(just watch someone's going to find an equivalent deal in BoED or something and prove me wrong)

[Morty]

On the other hand, it doesn't look like the three souls attached to Vaarsuvius suffered any adverse effects, certainly nothing worse than being in an evil afterlife is to begin with. It's possible that good souls might agree to a soul splice simply because it's the right thing to do and this power will serve a good cause. Not that I expect it to happen.

[Ionathus]

There's no reason the soul splice would need to be part of a contract or a sell-your-soul, thing, though. If Soul Splicing is just something that god-like entities can do with the souls they own, regardless of alignment, then I wouldn't be surprised if the Good and Neutral gods found ways to use that tool even outside of the context of Faustian temptations. If I was a high-level cleric of a Good god, and they came up to me while I was chilling in the afterlife and said "hey you wanna go bust some evil heads with a cleric on the Prime Material?" I'd probably be jumping at the chance to show off and kick Evil's butt once again!

Strip away the "sell your soul" rider, and it starts to just look a lot more like fusion earrings from DBZ. This is literally the only part of DBZ I watched, I'm sorry but I'm unable to answer any followup questions

[RatElemental]

Yeah it's definitely something some souls might want to do... at first. Horace probably would have taken the chance to help fight more evil back when he first arrived, but he's moved on and has let go of the material world, meanwhile Eugene would tell you to kick rocks because he's earned his rest (well, if he actually had earned his rest anyway).

[Riftwolf]

There's no reason the soul splice would need to be part of a contract or a sell-your-soul, thing, though. If Soul Splicing is just something that god-like entities can do with the souls they own, regardless of alignment, then I wouldn't be surprised if the Good and Neutral gods found ways to use that tool even outside of the context of Faustian temptations. If I was a high-level cleric of a Good god, and they came up to me while I was chilling in the afterlife and said "hey you wanna go bust some evil heads with a cleric on the Prime Material?" I'd probably be jumping at the chance to show off and kick Evil's butt once again!

Strip away the "sell your soul" rider, and it starts to just look a lot more like fusion earrings from DBZ. This is literally the only part of DBZ I watched, I'm sorry but I'm unable to answer any followup questions

Does 3.5 deal with reincarnations of former powerful clerics? Because it seems like that'd be preferable over a soul splice, as it takes away the whole 'robbed of agency' angle. (there might be rules about this *not* being the case as it'd give evil gods opportunity to reincarnate the Ancient Stablords)
And just because it's a utility we've seen with Evil agents doesn't mean there's automatically a Good analog. Trap the Soul doesn't have a good equivalent, for example.

[RatElemental]

Does 3.5 deal with reincarnations of former powerful clerics? Because it seems like that'd be preferable over a soul splice, as it takes away the whole 'robbed of agency' angle.

Reincarnation isn't usually a standard part of the D&D cosmology, outside of the reincarnate spell, a 4th level druid only spell that rerolls the recipient's race and resurrects them into a young adult body. Still doesn't work on things that have died of old age, who died more than a week ago, or whom you do not have any body parts to cast it on.

There are a couple settings that have "natural" reincarnation but it's just a soul recycling thing that maybe sometimes gives past life memories, not class levels or abilities.


Trap the Soul doesn't have a good equivalent, for example.

Actually, it kind of does. Sanctify the Wicked, traps an evil creature inside a gem for a year while they undergo magical therapy and or brain washing (subject to DM) before being released as a good version of themself. I say kind of because Trap the Soul doesn't have the [Evil] descriptor. Soul Bind doesn't even have it. There are lots of good or neutral reasons you might want someone (like, say, Xykon) to be beyond the reach of resurrection.

[M1982]

If they weren't willing, then the IFCC still had rightful dominion over their souls according to the rules of afterlife. Redcloak has no such thing.
I believe other than Lee no fiend would have cared about "rightful"


No, the once-in-a-century thing was just soul splicing itself.

Unlikely as both Redcloak and Xykon recognized it immediately.

Redcloak as soon as he saw it and Xykon as soon as Redcloak called it.

There wasn't even a second of confusion for either of them.

[Riftwolf]

Unlikely as both Redcloak and Xykon recognized it immediately.
Redcloak as soon as he saw it and Xykon as soon as Redcloak called it.
There wasn't even a second of confusion for either of them.

Remember that Redcloak had spent the better part of the last book researching obscure mysticism to try and break O-Chuls mind?
Chances are he read about Soul Splices, even if they only happened once a century, but because of the moving parts involved decided it wasn't a productive avenue.

[M1982]

Remember that Redcloak had spent the better part of the last book researching obscure mysticism to try and break O-Chuls mind?
Chances are he read about Soul Splices, even if they only happened once a century, but because of the moving parts involved decided it wasn't a productive avenue.

Xykon immediately knew what a soul splice too. Immediately after RC told him that one was in play he started wisecracking and smacktalking about it. Not a moment of "soul-what?"

[Morty]

I believe other than Lee no fiend would have cared about "rightful"

They might not care, but they did have ownership of the souls based on how afterlife works. And whether they care or not is less important than whether the mechanics of the Soul Splice do.

[M1982]

They might not care, but they did have ownership of the souls based on how afterlife works. And whether they care or not is less important than whether the mechanics of the Soul Splice do.

But we have no base to assume that ownership has anything to do with it.

Also the fiends really have no ownership of the souls on there plane. LE may be the only who could claim some ownership.

For CE and NE it's merely "soul happens to be in my vicinity and I am more powerful than it".

Just because a soul spawns in the Abyss after it's death doesn't grant Orcus any more ownership than him just picking it up due to the poor sod having spawned just next to him

[Ionathus]

And just because it's a utility we've seen with Evil agents doesn't mean there's automatically a Good analog. Trap the Soul doesn't have a good equivalent, for example.

I'm not saying there's some "good equivalent" to soul splicing, I'm saying there's no in-world reason given for why soul splicing can't be an inherently neutral mechanic, usable by any powerful god-like being with dominion over souls. Sure, maybe some Good gods don't use it because they don't like the connotations, and they only do it if they have willing volunteers, and volunteers are rare because they'd rather chill in the Good afterlives, but I wouldn't doubt for a second that there are a handful of high-level Good-aligned casters who are cheering for their descendants and would be happy to help out in a pinch.

Basically, I don't see anything inherently evil about the process, if everyone involved is cool with it.

[WolvesbaneIII]

I'm not saying there's some "good equivalent" to soul splicing, I'm saying there's no in-world reason given for why soul splicing can't be an inherently neutral mechanic, usable by any powerful god-like being with dominion over souls. Sure, maybe some Good gods don't use it because they don't like the connotations, and they only do it if they have willing volunteers, and volunteers are rare because they'd rather chill in the Good afterlives, but I wouldn't doubt for a second that there are a handful of high-level Good-aligned casters who are cheering for their descendants and would be happy to help out in a pinch.

Basically, I don't see anything inherently evil about the process, if everyone involved is cool with it.

with it being a homebrew thing in comic, maybe it has something to do with behind the scenes bureaucracy slowing it down. the fiends had paperwork to do off screen and well, had to pull strings to get the gods to deliver.

I could see it being a once a century deal based on the amount of paper work, not the lack of willing participants or gods.

the fiends, having the deal worked out in advance pooled their resources together and wasted 3 splices on 1 guy, but it was alright for plot reasons. maybe they sat on their splices for all that time and its just a coincidence or bad luck that the gods of good never get one. its by lottery or some other weird thing?

I know its just a 1 off thing but this is so cool, I want to know more.

[Squire Doodad]

with it being a homebrew thing in comic, maybe it has something to do with behind the scenes bureaucracy slowing it down. the fiends had paperwork to do off screen and well, had to pull strings to get the gods to deliver.

I could see it being a once a century deal based on the amount of paper work, not the lack of willing participants or gods.

the fiends, having the deal worked out in advance pooled their resources together and wasted 3 splices on 1 guy, but it was alright for plot reasons. maybe they sat on their splices for all that time and its just a coincidence or bad luck that the gods of good never get one. its by lottery or some other weird thing?

I know its just a 1 off thing but this is so cool, I want to know more.

It's a DnD world, for all we know Soul Splice is an effect that requires the use of specifically Evil souls or souls under the power of an Evil entity, and can only be applied onto a non-Good entity.
If certain classes are alignment-locked, then surely it's reasonable to assume certain effects have their only means of application can strictly be used by someone of a given alignment.
Or maybe the act of a Soul Splice requires reducing fifty separate souls to nothing, which Good-aligned gods (and gods in general) are very hesitant about doing.

[Morty]

with it being a homebrew thing in comic, maybe it has something to do with behind the scenes bureaucracy slowing it down. the fiends had paperwork to do off screen and well, had to pull strings to get the gods to deliver.

I could see it being a once a century deal based on the amount of paper work, not the lack of willing participants or gods.

the fiends, having the deal worked out in advance pooled their resources together and wasted 3 splices on 1 guy, but it was alright for plot reasons. maybe they sat on their splices for all that time and its just a coincidence or bad luck that the gods of good never get one. its by lottery or some other weird thing?

I know its just a 1 off thing but this is so cool, I want to know more.

I don't see what's so cool about it that would make it worth bringing back. It's yet another way for a spellcaster to become really powerful. As if they needed more of those. It served its purpose to give Vaarsuvius a power boost at a price, with terrible consequences. That's enough.

[AgentofOdd]

I don't see what's so cool about it that would make it worth bringing back. It's yet another way for a spellcaster to become really powerful. As if they needed more of those. It served its purpose to give Vaarsuvius a power boost at a price, with terrible consequences. That's enough.

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing a soul splice used with Eugene. Chances of this happening are very slim but if Eugene actually deigns to help his son then it would show some character grow from the jerk which I honestly wouldn't mind. Also, there's a good chance he'd have to bind himself with Elan which would be humiliating and have some comedic value. I mean think about it. V is the best candidate for the splice in theory, but they have significant trauma from the 1st splice and might not be able to hold onto a 2nd. Roy, Durkon & Belkar are busy being frontline fighters and shouldn't be casting spells. Haley has her hands full shooting things. Elan on the other hand mostly stands around singing, occasionally acts as a secondary caster, and has some experience with illusions. The resident pretty boy is the best (but terrible) option for a soul splice the order has.

[WolvesbaneIII]

It's a DnD world, for all we know Soul Splice is an effect that requires the use of specifically Evil souls or souls under the power of an Evil entity, and can only be applied onto a non-Good entity.
If certain classes are alignment-locked, then surely it's reasonable to assume certain effects have their only means of application can strictly be used by someone of a given alignment.
Or maybe the act of a Soul Splice requires reducing fifty separate souls to nothing, which Good-aligned gods (and gods in general) are very hesitant about doing.

its as of yet undefined if its only evil or any alignment can use it.

but I could see it being evil only, and maybe only non evil users could use it as its "selling your non evil soul" vs why bother selling an already evil soul? it will be gotten in time if they keep up the bad and wicked ways, and they'll go down below if its kept up.


I don't see what's so cool about it that would make it worth bringing back. It's yet another way for a spellcaster to become really powerful. As if they needed more of those. It served its purpose to give Vaarsuvius a power boost at a price, with terrible consequences. That's enough.

its cool. its a power boost even if it is cast from a lower tier caster. it grants more spells, refreshes your spell slots upon being granted, and I'll elaborate on the "power" boost.

V has the ability to cast spells possibly outside his spell range. he had epic spells which he couldn't cast under normal conditions. he had spells outside his barred schools. he could take down a dragon that had priorly beaten him.

its cool, but I hope it doesn't come back for V, but I could see it being spoken of, and if used, should be explained in full detail as to how and hopefully it makes sense.

currently, I hope it stays away so as to not ruin the epicness of it.