Best spells for a new player sorcerer

[arkol]

Greetings everyone.

As stated previously on this thread https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?633165-Tips-for-DMing-Pathfinder-for-new-players I'll be running an introductory adventure for my nephew and now a couple of his friends too.

I'm building their characters to avoid confusing them too much with a bunch of rules from the get go and will be using a rogue and a ranger for two of them and would like to add in a sorcerer as the third as I think it's an easier way to introduce magic users.

However sorcerers are extremely limited in terms of spells and I would like to give them a few options. What cool spells should I give this lvl1 starting sorcerer? Any way to increase the number of spells known as per the rules? I might give him a few extra ones just to give them a wider taste, but at the same time I don't wanna drown them in options. Reduce person seems like a good way to introduce the concept of "size" without going into "reach" (with enlarge person) right away. Mage armor is nice and all but might be too passive for young kids to feel the "coolness". Magic Missile is pretty straight forward but kinda meh (for me anyway, maybe not for them).

Any other ideas?

[aglondier]

Might be my personal bias, but I think sorcerors work best if you start with a theme and fill their spell roster from there.

For example, in our current campaign we have Carlander the Black, a black dragon blooded elf sorceror who has mostly filled out his spell list with acid based evocations...

[Aracor]

Level 1 attack spells (especially at caster level 1) are pretty meh anyway. Remember, sorcerers DO have Simple Weapon Proficiency, so they can carry around a Longspear at low levels to get free attacks if someone gets close.

If you want the "best" spells, I'd suggest Color Spray for a 1st level spell since at low levels it's basically a save or die. It's also more interesting than just doing 1d4+1 damage.

For the other one at level 1, I'd suggest something defensive or utility. Mage Armor or Shield is decent, as is Obscuring Mist for defensive. Charm Person and Enlarge Person are good for utility and/or support. Grease is great, but not as good at level 1. If they want to debuff, Ray of Clumsiness or Ray of Enfeeblement are both solid. Or Wall of Smoke can work as both defensive and debuff.

At higher levels, the Lesser Orb spells are solid for level 1 slots.

[RandomPeasant]

It's not Pathfinder content (though there might be an equivalent), but I would suggest that instead of a Sorcerer you might start a new player off with a Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, or Warmage. They play very similarly, but you don't have to worry about selecting spells.

[Kitsuneymg]

Human sorcerer FCB babe extra spells. But they have to be cantrips at level 1-3 I guess.

Is this an introduction to Pathfinder or rpgs or what? I’d highly suggest using Spheres of Power instead of normal casting. It makes it far easier to pick a theme an expand it. Destruction in particular seems likely to appeal to more action-oriented players. But since the spheres generally do what they say in the tin, it’s pretty easy to just grab talents that seem cool and build upon them.

[arkol]

It's an introduction to rpgs in general.

I'm unfamiliar with spheres of power. Where can I find that?

[Alcore]

Burning hands - can't go wrong with a bit of fire. Any friendly fire will better make them understand that just because you can cast doesn't mean you should.

Sleep - for 4hd this is save or die with a rouge on hand. Plus they fall prone. Standing is more AoO for rogue... plus sneak attack.

Color spray - save or die... again.

Grease - not quite a save or die but is used right (and everyone has reach) can win a fight.

Magic missile - a good staple. Direct them this way around level 2 or first spell switch out...

Mage armor - 4 ac is 4 ac... smaller party means more likely to be taking hits.

[RandomPeasant]

I'm unfamiliar with spheres of power. Where can I find that?

I don't use Spheres of Power, but I would assume the wiki (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/).

[Kitsuneymg]

It's an introduction to rpgs in general.

I'm unfamiliar with spheres of power. Where can I find that?

I highly suggest starting with the Using SoP (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/using-spheres-of-power) page. While they have their own classes, there are archetypes for most Pathfinder classes. The sorcerer has several, but the basic sphere sorcerer is the closest in feel to the pathfinder one.

[Kurald Galain]

Since this is Pathfinder, bear in mind that you get infinite-use cantrips. In particular, Daze and Disrupt Undead are pretty good at low level. Furthermore, you get a bloodline power which is often another attack ability for low levels.

In addition to things like grease and color spray, Mudball is funny and pretty good; Ear Piercing Scream is solid; and Vanish is versatile to have around.

Burning Hands becomes very good if you give him the Spell Specialization feat and/or Draconic bloodline.

[Maat Mons]

Since it's Pathfinder, maybe make him an Arcanist instead of a Sorcerer? If he wants, the Arcanist can, for practical purposes, work just like a Sorcerer. He'd just prepare the same spells every day.

I suspect new players will be fond of tossing out their at-will damage-dealing ability. So, if you stay with Sorcerer, or if you go with Blood Arcanist, maybe pick either the Draconic Bloodline or the Solar Bloodline. (Or the Primal mutation of the Elemental Bloodline, for Sorcerer, but not Blood Arcanist. At least, I don't think Blood Arcanist can select mutated bloodlines.) I'm sure the player will think +1 damage is pretty neat. And since he'll be making touch attacks, he might actually contribute decently by spamming his 1d3+1 attack.

Since the 1st-level Bloodline powers of the Draconic, Elemental, and Solar Bloodlines kind of suck, if you go that route, you should probably trade them for the Blood Havoc Bloodline Mutation. Well, you should if you stick with Sorcerer. I don't think Blood Arcanists can select Bloodline Mutations, but I could be wrong. Anyway, another +1 damage is just the sort of thing new players enjoy, in my experience. If you don't want to have to explain schools of magic, you could let the Elemental Focus feat count as Spell Focus for the purposes of Blood Havoc. Then the player would only need to remember that they get +2 damage per die with whatever element they're tied to.

[Gnaeus]

Since it's Pathfinder, maybe make him an Arcanist instead of a Sorcerer? If he wants, the Arcanist can, for practical purposes, work just like a Sorcerer. He'd just prepare the same spells every day. .

Because an arcanist who prepares the same spells every day is strictly worse than a sorcerer? Like 2/3 the spell slots worse? Arcanist is only better for competent players who are also in a play environment where you can reliably predict what your big issues of that day will be.

For a new player to make use of arcanist you need to be encouraging different spells all the time, THAT will require him to learn all/most sorcerer spells to pick from. If you pick for him, it’s going to feel like you running his pc every morning. That’s a lot more up front effort for a player who doesn’t fully know the game for what will be, if he doesn’t regularly pick spells that are more than 50% more effective than his normal sorcerer spells, a weaker character.

[satorian]

For the purposes of teaching the idea of spellcasting in RPGs, I wouldn't break too far from straight sorcerer, done traditionally. Spheres is a neat system, but this is for a kid who has never played before. I'd say a basic chassis, maybe arcane bloodline for per round ranged attack and fun familiar usage. Keep it simple, except for what you want to teach.

One spell I'd add for teaching is Silent Image: a creative kid could really get into the versatility of illusion.

And for cantrips, make sure Mage Hand and Prestidigitation (and Detect Magic) are on the list. These, along with illusion, will help teach the theater of the mind so important to enjoying the game and seeing how it's different from a video game.

[Kurald Galain]

For the purposes of teaching the idea of spellcasting in RPGs, I wouldn't break too far from straight sorcerer, done traditionally.

I agree. Don't give arcanist or spherecasting to a first-time player.

[JoeNapalm]

In 3.5e, not Pathfinder, but have been running a low level Sorcerer recently, and I can say that Grease, Mage Armor, and Color Spray are by far the best spells in my character's arsenal.

Grease and Color Spray have turned the tide in a number of battles that may have otherwise been unwinnable, Grease being the easier to use and more reliable of the two. Color Spray is great, you just need to get your angles right, and it is completely useless against creatures above a few HD...but it's flashy and stylish, and will end most newbie fights if you can get it fired from the right spot.

Mage Armor you might be able to live without, depending on the size, composition and competency of your party, but it's always nice to slap a layer of magical kevlar on when things get sporting. A bit passive for a young new player...but I've been gaming a long time, and the first thing any young new player with a robe wearer does? Rush into a fight, of course.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Seerow]

I highly suggest starting with the Using SoP (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/using-spheres-of-power) page. While they have their own classes, there are archetypes for most Pathfinder classes. The sorcerer has several, but the basic sphere sorcerer is the closest in feel to the pathfinder one.

Seconding Sphere Sorcerer as a suggestion here. You can make it really simply by avoiding a lot of the more detailed stuff/

If you're starting at level 1 they'll basically have 3 talents, Cha+2 Spell Points, and a Sorcerer Bloodline.

For your 3 talents:
1) Destruction - This gives you an at will blast that hits touch AC and deals 1d6 damage, the option to spend a spell point to increase to 2d6 damage.

This is introducing resource management, the concept of touch AC, and giving a way to contribute round to round.

2) Explosive Orb - Adds two options. Can use Destructive Blast to hit a 5ft square (ref negates) for free, or hit a 10ft radius (ref half) for 1 spell point. This gives some extra flexibility, introduces the concept of saving throws instead of attack rolls as well as the concept of aoe hits.

3) Any Blast Type Talent - Look through them and find one that makes sense with whatever bloodline talent you pick. Solar Bloodline might want Smiting Blast or Blinding Blast. Red Dragon Bloodline might want Blistering Blast, Water Elemental might want Frost Blast, so on. Main thing I'd recommend is getting one that applies a debuff (as opposed to just more damage like Searing Blast), to introduce that idea into the game.




Note: All 3 talents I noted above could in theory be one talent with drawbacks. (Energy Focus and Shape Focus), so if you wanted to add more flexibility or other capabilities to the character it is an option, I just went with the simplest 3 things to give you a low level blaster, since even just that is introducing probably more options/resource management than the rogue or ranger will be getting. But if you liked the idea of giving some utility through transformation (which I agree is cool!) use drawbacks to get all 3 of those as one talent and pick up the Alteration Sphere.

[Efrate]

Burning hands if running a module, paizo loves throwing swarms at low level parties.

Color spray is great. As are grease and sleep. Magic missle is an eventual because you will need it. Do not need it at 1. Charm person is iffy, its good but not many new players want to have non combat spells. Silent image is fantastic for a creative player. Any debuff or buff spell.

[Calthropstu]

Depends on age.

A clever kid might enjoy the spell animate rope.
Snowball is a pretty good one.
Summon 1
Comprehend languages
charm person
Burning hands
ray of enfeeblement

Those are the ones I'd recommend not inowing the people involved.

[Arkain]

Any way to increase the number of spells known as per the rules? I might give him a few extra ones just to give them a wider taste, but at the same time I don't wanna drown them in options.

Yes, actually. Expanded Arcana is a feat that allows either 1 extra spell of the highest level or two of lower levels. Page of Spellknowledge is maybe a bit expensive for low level characters, but allow for additional spells as well, as long as the caster possesses it. Finally, there is the human favored class bonus.

As for the actual spells, the cantrips can already deal pathetic damage, so maybe not the best idea to waste time with that when you also have warrior types in the party. Instead, make them feel magical. My hunch is, you could do cool things with enchantment spells, for instance. Charm Person or Hypnotism could aid the feeling of a socially gifted character who can captivate people, while Comprehend Languages might get you the important clue hidden in the papers written in Infernal, adding a dash of divination. Illusions like Silent Image can allow for creative solutions, Obscuring Mist or Vanish coul help make you feel magical by disappearing from sight or just covering up the group. Maybe even Mount, on scrolls, say. Reduce Person much like you suggested introduces concepts like size without complicating it via reach and such. Use it with Disguise Self to infiltrate a shady business run by wayang, maybe? If you want to have some offense, maybe Thunderstomp, not because it's superstrong (trip is nice, mind you), but because I'd say it feels much cooler to send ripples through the ground and throw someone off their feet than dealing some minor damage. Animate Rope is another spell you could do really cool things with.
A lot of this obviously depends on the level you want them to start at, as casters tend to be a bit pathetic at low levels. So I'd try to create some archetypes for the characters, like magical detective, and try to roll with it.

Suppose a human level 3 Sorcerer who went all out on the Expanded Arcana and FCB front. Rakshasa bloodline and serves as the group's face character with a hint of infiltrator.
0: Acid Splash (acid flask as a focus), Daze, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound, Prestidigitation, Mage Hand
1: Charm Person, Reduce Person, Thunderstomp, Colorspray, Silent Image, Disguise Self, Sleep

Some scrolls for occasionally useful spells, boom. Should allow for some creativity with the right kind of player. Alternatively, do the opposite with e.g. the orc bloodline and a bunch of spells like Burning Hands. Hell, create several versions for them to pick, it doesn't need to be perfectly optimized anyway. Tailor the session(s) appropriately to the characters and afterwards tell them that this is just one of a myriad way each of their characters could have turned out, as should hopefully be obvious.

[Kurald Galain]

As for the actual spells, the cantrips can already deal pathetic damage, so maybe not the best idea to waste time with that when you also have warrior types in the party.
I agree with that...


0: Acid Splash (acid flask as a focus),
...so maybe this is not the best suggestion for a cantrip :smallbiggrin:

[satorian]

Acid Splash is for locks, not enemies. Well, many enemy locks.

[Maat Mons]

While an Arcanist played like a Sorcerer is going to be worse than an actual Sorcerer, it will still be good enough. And it provides something very important that Sorcerer doesn't, a chance to try picking his own spells without the risk of permanently screwing himself.

New players don't stay new forever. Eventually, they start to feel comfortable with the system. The player will, if the campaign goes on long enough, want to try making choices for himself when leveling up. If he's playing an Arcanist, you can let him do that, and the dumb choices he inevitably makes will be only temporary inconveniences. If he's playing a Sorcerer, either you'll explain to him that, in spite of his newfound confidence, he's still not competent to pick his own spells known, or you'll be setting him up to learn that the hard way.

Arcanist can be simple if the player wants it to be. And it performs adequately when played that way. Not as well as a Sorcerer, but acceptable. But it can also act as training wheels for someone who wants to dip a toe into a little bit of complexity. And you can let the player make those first few fumbling steps with much less hand-holding when you know his mistakes will be easily reversible.

The Rogue and Ranger are destined to be throw-away characters. The players will either try to direct the characters' growth themselves, and mess it up. Or they'll scrap the characters in favor of new ones they've built themselves, and mess those up. They'll wind up making new characters to replace the one's they've screwed up, and probably screw those up too. This will repeat several times.

But an Arcanist character has the potential to stay in play indefinitely. It's simple enough that even a new player can manage one. It has things an advanced player can tinker with to their heart's content and never grow bored. And it's robust enough to withstand the many mistakes a player will make as they grow from a new player into and advanced one.

Edit:

Not to put word's in Arkain's mouth, but I think he meant that using up a 1st-level spell known to gain the option to use a 1st-level spell slot to deal 1d6 damage isn't worth it when you can easily have 1d3 damage at-will. You'd be using up precious resource for +1.5 damage on average when that spell slot could do so much more.

In contrast, one cantrip known isn't that big a cost. And a new player will expect to have the ability to deal damage. There are going to be more than three rounds of combat in a day. And the player will want to be doing something magic-y in every one of those rounds. Having one offensive cantrip means you don't have to tell your trigger-happy magic user that he's now effectively a Commoner with a crossbow where battle is concerned because he blew all his spells in the first fight of the day.

And if you want, a (Copper) Draconic Sorcerer with Blood Havoc deals 1d3+2 damage at-will with Acid Splash. When you factor in that he's hitting touch AC, he honestly might out-damage the Ranger. He might out-damage the Rogue if the Rogue isn't good at setting up flanking.

[Alcore]

Even if he picks "wrong" there are official means to change it :smallwink:

http://legacy.aonprd.com/ultimateCampaign/campaignSystems/retraining.html

[Arkain]

Acid Splash is for locks, not enemies. Well, many enemy locks.

Yes, actually :smallbiggrin:
Also, maybe some attack that doesn't hit regular AC.

You know, I've been wondering for a moment here and it seems as if PF1 has changed the rules as I remembered them. I recall that in 3.5 acid was the one energy type that basically ignored hardness (or didn't get halved? Great, now I'm completely unsure! :smallbiggrin:), but looks like that is no longer the case. Instead we get a vague context clause, like fire burning paper. Has this actually been changed and I'm just too incompetent to look it up? I mean, you could still use Acid Splash as minor utility against say ropes or other 0 hardness items if you really want to (or can't reach it with a dagger, say...), but still. It's also a bit inconsistent with various monster abilities, particularly of oozes, dealing a bit of acid damage to equipment, if said damage would technically be halved and then reduced by hardness. Huh.


While an Arcanist played like a Sorcerer is going to be worse than an actual Sorcerer, it will still be good enough. And it provides something very important that Sorcerer doesn't, a chance to try picking his own spells without the risk of permanently screwing himself.

New players don't stay new forever. Eventually, they start to feel comfortable with the system. The player will, if the campaign goes on long enough, want to try making choices for himself when leveling up. If he's playing an Arcanist, you can let him do that, and the dumb choices he inevitably makes will be only temporary inconveniences. If he's playing a Sorcerer, either you'll explain to him that, in spite of his newfound confidence, he's still not competent to pick his own spells known, or you'll be setting him up to learn that the hard way.

Arcanist can be simple if the player wants it to be. And it performs adequately when played that way. Not as well as a Sorcerer, but acceptable. But it can also act as training wheels for someone who wants to dip a toe into a little bit of complexity. And you can let the player make those first few fumbling steps with much less hand-holding when you know his mistakes will be easily reversible.

The Rogue and Ranger are destined to be throw-away characters. The players will either try to direct the characters' growth themselves, and mess it up. Or they'll scrap the characters in favor of new ones they've built themselves, and mess those up. They'll wind up making new characters to replace the one's they've screwed up, and probably screw those up too. This will repeat several times.

But an Arcanist character has the potential to stay in play indefinitely. It's simple enough that even a new player can manage one. It has things an advanced player can tinker with to their heart's content and never grow bored. And it's robust enough to withstand the many mistakes a player will make as they grow from a new player into and advanced one.

Edit:

Not to put word's in Arkain's mouth, but I think he meant that using up a 1st-level spell known to gain the option to use a 1st-level spell slot to deal 1d6 damage isn't worth it when you can easily have 1d3 damage at-will. You'd be using up precious resource for +1.5 damage on average when that spell slot could do so much more.

In contrast, one cantrip known isn't that big a cost. And a new player will expect to have the ability to deal damage. There are going to be more than three rounds of combat in a day. And the player will want to be doing something magic-y in every one of those rounds. Having one offensive cantrip means you don't have to tell your trigger-happy magic user that he's now effectively a Commoner with a crossbow where battle is concerned because he blew all his spells in the first fight of the day.

And if you want, a (Copper) Draconic Sorcerer with Blood Havoc deals 1d3+2 damage at-will with Acid Splash. When you factor in that he's hitting touch AC, he honestly might out-damage the Ranger. He might out-damage the Rogue if the Rogue isn't good at setting up flanking.

I quite agree. Funnily enough that's precisely why I've got a player right now who's first time with a caster type character is an Arcanist. It certainly helped that I could make some comparisons to 5e's casting mechanics, but telling him that he's kind of like a Sorcerer, but can swap his spells did sell him on it. So he can spam Fireball all he likes, but still can swap out spells if he wishes to and do all the cool exploit stuff on the side. So while a Sorcerer may have been a better blaster or other dedicated archetype or a Wizard stronger in general (because... Wizard), this kind of training wheels character with surprising depth if desired is rather a success.


Also yup towards the edit. If you're playing at really low levels limited 1d6 or 2d6 or whatever won't do too much, when you could just spam your minor cantrip anyhow. Admittedly, this changes dramatically when we're talking about, say, Fireball, which always seems impressive at first sight (and against sufficient masses), but many optimizers value what amounts to basically tools over damage for good reason. And to further give an impression that magic is mostly a weirdly limited bow or ray gun or whatever is maybe not the grandest idea when it could be so much more. Unless the players explicitly want that kind of character, of course!

[vasilidor]

after a few sessions allow them to alter their characters. feats, spell selections, all the way to just creating something else if they do not like their character.
spheres of might is awesome in that it can give you abilities that never go away after using them once with the ability to amp them a limited number of times. they can be simple or complex depending on the build.

[aglondier]

Since it is pathfinder, go a halforc with the red dragon bloodline, and give him/her the Snapdragon Fireworks spell. Halforc gives you a bonus damage to fire spells, as does red dragon bloodline, and the fireworks spell lasts 1 round per level, so a single casting lets him blast several 5' diameter explosions around the battlefield at Long range! It also inflicts dazzle! And best of all it's shaped like a tiny little dragon, and goes boom...how can you not love it?

This should hold pretty well until 4th level when you pick up Flaming Sphere.

[Thunder999]

Honestly I'd just go with simple save or suck and a few basic buffs, simple and effective.

[Calthropstu]

Honestly I'd just go with simple save or suck and a few basic buffs, simple and effective.

You are forgetting a key element, and the reason I suggested rope trick.

They are kids. Kids want to laugh and have fun. So including sub-optimal spells with hilarious applications is something to consider.

[Barstro]

You are forgetting a key element, and the reason I suggested rope trick.

They are kids. Kids want to laugh and have fun. So including sub-optimal spells with hilarious applications is something to consider.

Now that I am somewhere I can type;
I am basing this only only limited experience (which for the past ten years is Pathfinder). My logic may be incorrect.

I am answering the question as I interpret it (which is most likely incorrect);
1) Concerned only about teaching the spellcaster
2) player has almost no roleplaying background
3) want player to enjoy now and in the future.
4) Player/character is part of a party

My general answers
1) Do not min/max. Player will learn that stuff in the future. Teach the player to make thematic characters from the onset or they will always tend to min/max.
2) Assuming there is a party or otherwise access to healing; Let the player learn the pitfalls of forgetting about armor. Do not give them mage armor in the beginning. Let them get hit and taken out of the fight. Give them mage armor later to so they see how much it assists them.
3) Hitting stuff is fun. I always suggest at lower levels to increase enemy hitpoints, decrease armor, decrease damage. Let the fights last longer and let people hit the enemy while removing the chance of a one-hit-kill for either side.
4) Similar to above, teach spellcaster to use mundane items at low levels. Learn spell conservation. Throw daggers, use a crossbow/bow/spear.

Spells I like;
Acid splash, for traps as mentioned.
Detect Magic
Daze (only for early on, but teaches save-or-suck)
Flare - helps the melee players, teaches "team" over "self"
Ghost sound - only if the players like roleplaying over dungeon crawls.
Presidigitation. teach it early for creativity.

Grease. My low-level goto.
Burning hands - classic spell. Good for swarms.
Shocking grasp. Not that I think it is a great spell, but it teaches scaling spells and teaches that casters can melee as well and teaches the risks of trying.

Later (after learning how fragile they are)
Shield
Mage armor

Favorite level 2, by far;
Glitterdust. So many fights have been won because that spell landed early on.

Spectral hand (to deliver shocking grasp)

Anything after that really depends on what the team/player is doing and finds to be fun. I personally am team-minded and want to control the battlefield more than deal damage. Their views may differ.

Tailor fights/situations to whatever spells the player has. Lie about the dice rolls, alter spell effects, give the lessons you want to give and to help the party succeed. Let it be fun now.

[arkol]

Wow this grew a lot before I had time to read it.

We had the session yesterday and went pretty well, but we ended up only having 1 combat encounter. We started in a tavern (duh :P ) and they actually manage to stay in character and roleplay a lot. And because we kinda had to stop every step of the way to explain new rules, it took a very long time.

The sorcerer ended up with sleep and put it to relative good use, managing to down an enemy that the ranger promptly exploded with his greatsword but failed to drop the mini-boss bandit (barely made his save) but they managed to gang up on him and managed to kill him.

Thanks everyone for all the input!

[Endarire]

I like grease because it makes things fall down/go boom (and provoke attacks of opportunity from friendlies when standing) and magic missile (because sometimes you want guaranteed damage, especially against incorporeal foes that may emerge at low levels).

Get some mage armor scrolls or partially-charged wands and you're set for awhile!