How would you "fix" Arcane Archer?

[Mastikator]

Quick background. I'm playing a variant human fighter arcane archer (yes, sharpshooter build). We recently hit level 5.

The situation: [One of the other players and the DM were discussing how the Arcane Archer subclass kinda sucks, which is mostly true, it's not a hard-optimized game and I don't feel like I'm underperforming. (I'm out-DPSing the other players, the guy who talked to the DM only keeps up with me because he's cheating, and I have a decent amount of utility). But I do notice that the Arcane Archer part of my build is not amazing
(worth mentioning that the DM enforces arrow counting rules)

My goal: We're currently at level 5, I'm sticking with fighter until level 7 then probably multi-classing into rogue or artificer or wizard

My question: How would you "fix" the arcane archer subclass?

My thoughts? Scale number of arcane shots to proficiency bonus, which currently would bump it from 2 to 3. Is that all it takes though?

[J-H]

1) Add intermediate Arcane Shot boosts. Instead of 2d6 and 3rd level and 4d6 at 18th level, I'd probably go with:
3rd 2d6
9th 3d6
14th 4d6
18th 5d6
2) Add the ability to Concentrate on the effects of one of your arrows to extend the duration. Applies to Beguiling, Banishing, Enfeebling.
3) Add additional Arcane shot uses. I considered copying Battlemaster (4->6), but I realized that INT provides no benefit except boosting spell save DCs. I'd say you get Arcane Shot uses equal to 2+INT mod per short rest.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Yeah, J-H is absolutely right with the intermediate damage boost. 2d6 damage for 15 levels is just ridiculous.

I think buffing the number of arcane shots to either Prof mod or 2 + Int mod would be fair.

[Witty Username]

Power never really was the problem for me, my frustration is more that it doesn't feel very magical in play to me. That and I feel Ranger would do it better.
Power wise the above suggestions would make it stronger.

[Sorinth]

For sure the thing holding back the Arcane Archer is how few times per fight you can make use of an arcane shot. It hurts both mechanically and thematically. The damage boost from AA shots is barely above using a maneuvers, the riders are better but that's balanced by the saving throw being based off a secondary stat vs primary stat for maneuvers.

If you/they don't want to create more AA shots per rest, then there should be weaker at will AA shot options. Think Swarmkeeper where you either do a bit of extra damage or move the target or do something similar. A small magical effect on one arrow per turn will make it more thematic.

[LudicSavant]

My question: How would you "fix" the arcane archer subclass?

I would burn it all down and start from scratch. I don't think the issue with the Arcane Archer is one that can be solved by just tweaking the balance numbers -- I think it fundamentally misses the core fantasy of being an Arcane Archer and thus needs a fundamental redesign.

[airless_wing]

In my opinion, too many people focus on the Arcane Shot aspects of the class. They are nice additions that give great different effects, albeit limited in use.
To me, the more important features are the Magic Arrow and Curving Shot. Curving shot really gives you the chance to play that “I’ll never miss” trope; even if it wasnt your initial target, you’ll nearly always hit something on the field.

[Sorinth]

In my opinion, too many people focus on the Arcane Shot aspects of the class. They are nice additions that give great different effects, albeit limited in use.
To me, the more important features are the Magic Arrow and Curving Shot. Curving shot really gives you the chance to play that “I’ll never miss” trope; even if it wasnt your initial target, you’ll nearly always hit something on the field.

Mechanically it's not really any different then Crossbow Expert or Steady Aim. It's a strong feature for sure but it's not really bringing anything new to the table.

[neonchameleon]

Honestly, I'd rewrite it starting with the Rune Knight as a base but throwing out and replacing the giant stuff with something more suited. Your arcane arrows also give you some sort of non-combat bonuses (whether rope arrows to help you climb, seeking arrows that help you climb things, a phasing arrow that can let you phase through a wall you are touching, or the like).

[quindraco]

Quick background. I'm playing a variant human fighter arcane archer (yes, sharpshooter build). We recently hit level 5.

The situation: [One of the other players and the DM were discussing how the Arcane Archer subclass kinda sucks, which is mostly true, it's not a hard-optimized game and I don't feel like I'm underperforming. (I'm out-DPSing the other players, the guy who talked to the DM only keeps up with me because he's cheating, and I have a decent amount of utility). But I do notice that the Arcane Archer part of my build is not amazing
(worth mentioning that the DM enforces arrow counting rules)

My goal: We're currently at level 5, I'm sticking with fighter until level 7 then probably multi-classing into rogue or artificer or wizard

My question: How would you "fix" the arcane archer subclass?

My thoughts? Scale number of arcane shots to proficiency bonus, which currently would bump it from 2 to 3. Is that all it takes though?

If it's going to compete with Battlemaster or even Rune Knight, its saves need to be based on a Fighter stat - Str, Dex, or Con. But I agree with others in this thread that a re-do is on the table, much more than just number tweaking. 3.5E did it much better. I'd rewrite it like this, cribbing heavily from Eldritch Knight:

1) 1/3 caster, with 2 cantrips. Spells known quantity follows the EK/AT formula for quantity. Spellcasting ability is Dexterity.
2) Spells known are chosen from a list that expands over time. At L3, the list is any spell that can target one creature (it must be capable of targeting one creature, even if it has the option of targeting more) and is a spell attack.
3) L3 ability: When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and is a spell attack, you can bind the spell to a thrown weapon you are proficient with or a piece of ammunition and then throw the weapon or fire the ammunition from a ranged weapon you are proficient with, as part of casting the spell. In either case, you replace the spell's range with the long range of the weapon used in the spell for this casting of it, and you make a ranged weapon attack with the weapon, rather than the spell attack called for in the spell. If you hit, resolve an attack as normal with your ranged weapon, and then resolve an attack as normal for the spell - hitting with your weapon replaced the need for hitting with the spell.
4) L7 ability: The L3 ability now works on any spell that targets only one creature and has a range other than Self. If the weapon or ammunition hits and the spell normally requires a save, the save is made at disadvantage. If it misses, the spell is lost. The spell list expands to include all spells capable of targeting 1 creature and having a range other than Self. When you take the Attack action, you can replace one attack with a cantrip.
5) L10 ability: The L3 ability now works on any area of effect spell which has a range other than self; if the weapon or ammunition hits, resolve the spell normally with the weapon or ammunition as the point of origin of the area of effect, except the target that was hit rolls any saving throws against the spell at disadvantage. If it misses, the spell is lost. The spell list expands to include all spells that are areas of effect and have a range other than Self.
6) L15 ability: When you take the Attack action, you can replace one attack with a spell. If you do so, you can't also replace an attack with a cantrip.
7) L18 ability: When you take a short rest, you recover 1 expended spell slot of level 3 or less; this improves to 4 or less at level 19.

[TyGuy]

I'm out-DPSing the other players, the guy who talked to the DM only keeps up with me because he's cheating, and I have a decent amount of utility

Weird flex but ok.

I saw an interesting, old, post on this recently and a neat angle I liked was to drastically weaken the shots and make them more frequent. The thing is, going in that direction just moves AA towards BM. The point still stands, that Hawkeye doesn't do mundane shots. Even with regular arrows, he's doing special functions.

My first rough draft is something like:

Keep arcane archer lore, it's a nice ribbon.

Level 3
Replace Arcane Shot with Magic Arrow. Arrows count as magical for overcoming resistance.
And add Elemental Arrows. Elemental arrows simply allow the archer to choose between acid, cold, fire, or lighting damage to replace the ranged attack's damage type.

Level 7
Reintroduce Arcane Shots with the same number learned schedule, and add more options. I don't like the 1 of each wizard school angle. There needs to be more variety.
Magic Arrow, in addition to Elemental Arrows gets 1 new damage type that also has a crit rider or bonus effect.
Radiant damage: on a crit, target is blind for a round or until a successful save or something.
Necrotic damage: on a crit, the target takes 1d4 additional necrotic damage at the start of its turn until it succeeds on a con save at the end of its turn.
Poison damage: target needs to succeed on con save or gain poison condition. (Probably too strong, but poison is a high frequency resistance, so something juicy should be added)
Thunder damage: on a crit, target is stunned until the end of its next turn.
Force damage: drawing a blank here.
Magic Arrow also now allows for freely conjuring an arrow as part of an attack. Making physical quivers and ammunition unnecessary.

Level 10
Arcane Shot damage step up added.

Level 15
Keep Ever-Ready Shot.

Level 18
In addition to damage step up, add some crazy once per long rest super move like "Arrow storm". Or tie some badass rider to action surge like how EK has a teleport.

[Kane0]

My question: How would you "fix" the arcane archer subclass?


Move it from Fighter to Ranger.

Cantrip and skill at level 3 remain the same, except if you are already proficient you get expertise

You start with 3 shots per rest and the DC is based off WIS. You get a 4th shot at level 7 and the damage increases by 1d6 at levels 11 and 15.
You start knowing 3 shot types and learn one more at levels 7, 11 and 15.

Magic Arrow and Curving shot are the same at level 7

Ever-Ready Shot is the same at level 15

You might want to throw in a ribbon feature at level 11 as otherwise it's strictly arcane shot progression which is kinda boring.

[animewatcha]

Combine Eldritch knight and arcane archer into one subclass?

[Slider Eclipse]

Here's my thoughts

1. Remove the Bow Only restriction, I know it's called the Arcane Archer, but it feels awkward that it's pigeon holed so tightly when most other methods of magical ranged combat aren't.

2. Change the Arcane Shot, Now it's infinite use Ammo similar to the Artificer's Repeating Shot infusion. Can change the Damage dealt by these arrows as a Bonus Action. additionally have them deal an additional 1d8 damage per arrow at the associated Cantrip scaling levels. This Feature is Disabled in Anti Magic Fields. Some Damage Types may or may not be restricted to higher levels for balance.

3. Grant the Arcane Archer 1/3rd casting from the (Artificer?) Spell List, along with a handful of bonus spells that thematically fit. For the Purposes of Spellcasting Treat the Arcane Shot Arrows as a Spell Focus as per Artificer Casting rules. Subclass only grants the Prestigitation and Mending Cantrips.

4. As Part of the above features, Modify the Extra Attack feature to work as per Bladesinger Wizard's. Additionally when casting a spell using Arcane Shot as the Spell Focus, You may choose to make the origin point of your spell the Arrow it was cast with. (In example you could shoot an arrow into a wall behind a target that is hiding behind cover, then fire off your Caustic Brew from that wall)

[Garfunion]

Simply change or create ranged weapon oriented spells, you can even put a range limit on these spells similar to the revised blade cantrips. Give these spells to the Eldritch Knight archetype. Give these same spells to the wizard and allow the bladesinger archetype to use a shortbow with their bladesong.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I will make him a third caster with the ability to cast spells into his arrows that activates on hit(with the ability to target an area instead of a creature).

(Healing arrows will be a fun joke but that is the main problem I see).

Give him a school restriction like the EK and AT, make him use the ranger or/and the wizard spell list.

Basically, make a new subclass that have nothing to do with the current one.

Edit: I think the Duskblade from 3.5e is a good inspiration for it(I don't remember the Arcane Archers from past edition).

[kore]

Weird flex but ok.

I saw an interesting, old, post on this recently and a neat angle I liked was to drastically weaken the shots and make them more frequent. The thing is, going in that direction just moves AA towards BM. The point still stands, that Hawkeye doesn't do mundane shots. Even with regular arrows, he's doing special functions.

My first rough draft is something like:

Keep arcane archer lore, it's a nice ribbon.

Level 3
Replace Arcane Shot with Magic Arrow. Arrows count as magical for overcoming resistance.
And add Elemental Arrows. Elemental arrows simply allow the archer to choose between acid, cold, fire, or lighting damage to replace the ranged attack's damage type.

Level 7
Reintroduce Arcane Shots with the same number learned schedule, and add more options. I don't like the 1 of each wizard school angle. There needs to be more variety.
Magic Arrow, in addition to Elemental Arrows gets 1 new damage type that also has a crit rider or bonus effect.
Radiant damage: on a crit, target is blind for a round or until a successful save or something.
Necrotic damage: on a crit, the target takes 1d4 additional necrotic damage at the start of its turn until it succeeds on a con save at the end of its turn.
Poison damage: target needs to succeed on con save or gain poison condition. (Probably too strong, but poison is a high frequency resistance, so something juicy should be added)
Thunder damage: on a crit, target is stunned until the end of its next turn.
Force damage: drawing a blank here.
Magic Arrow also now allows for freely conjuring an arrow as part of an attack. Making physical quivers and ammunition unnecessary.

Level 10
Arcane Shot damage step up added.

Level 15
Keep Ever-Ready Shot.

Level 18
In addition to damage step up, add some crazy once per long rest super move like "Arrow storm". Or tie some badass rider to action surge like how EK has a teleport.

That is basically the direction I would go. The conjured arrows at L7 should be a no-brainer.

Let me to provide a variation. CON will be extra important to this subclass as features will use Concentration to extract full benefits. Scaling is a little more aggressive but is offset by coming online at later levels.

Level 3
- Arcane Archer Lore: leave it alone.
- Arcane Aim: may use INT for attack and damage rolls with Shortbow and Longbow.
- Elemental Arrows: as a bonus action may imbue arrows to do acid, cold, fire, lightning, or thunder instead of piercing and may sustain the chosen type for up to 1 minute using Concentration; you have two uses of this ability, regained at short or Long Rest.

Level 7
- Magic Arrow: automatically conjure arcane arrows.
- Arcane Shot: reintroduce this feature but with changes; you have two uses of this ability, regained at short or Long Rest:
Banishing: may use Concentration to maintain.
Beguiling: start bonus psychic damage at 2d8 and increase by 1d8 at 10, 15, and 18; may use Concentration to maintain.
Bursting: bonus damage is bludgeoning instead of force, starts at 3d6 and increases by 1d6 at 10, 15, and 18.
Enfeebling: start bonus necrotic damage at 2d8 and increase by 1d8 at 10, 15, and 18; additionally your ranged attacks deal 1d4 necrotic damage per hit and requires Concentration to maintain.
Grasping: start bonus poison damage at 2d8 and increase by 1d8 at 10, 15, and 18; require Concentration to maintain and slashing damage increases by 1d6 at same level intervals.
Piercing: start bonus piercing damage at 2d10 and increase by 1d10 at 10, 15, and 18; increase range to 60 feet.
Seeking: bonus damage is radiant instead of force, starts at 2d8 and increases by 1d8 at 10, 15, and 18; it additionally produces the effects of Faerie Fire and requires Concentration to maintain.
Shadow Arrow: start bonus psychic damage at 2d8 and increase by 1d8 at 10, 15, and 18; may use Concentration to maintain.

Level 10
- Additional Arcane Shot
- Improved Arcane Shot (damage)

Level 15
- Improved Elemental Arrows: elemental arrows deal an extra 1d6 typed damage.
- Improved Arcane Shot (damage)

Level 18
- Ever-Ready Shot: leave it alone.
- Improved Arcane Shot (damage)

[Mastikator]

One thought occurred to me, why not lean more into the arcane part?

For each arcane arrow you learn you also learn one 1st level wizard spell of the same school. Any spell learned this way can be cast once without using a spell slot, resets on a long rest. On level 10 you can cast these spells twice before a long rest.
On 15th level you also learn a 2nd level spell of each school that can be cast this way.
On 18th level you also learn a 3rd level spell of each school that can be cast this way.

[MrStabby]

The problems I see are:

1) It scales a bit weakly at higher levels
2) Overall you feel like a normal archer and only get to be "arcane" a little bit
3) No flavourful out of combat element


To fix these...

1) Add something like the warlock invocations. From level 10 you get a level 3 spell (or lower) from sorcerer list and can cast once per day. Then a level 4 at level 15 and a level 5 at level 18. Spells chosen must be from a school for which you have the corresponding arcane shot.

2) From level 7, whenever you use an action surge you may recover the use of one of your arcane shots.

3) Ritual casting as a wizard of half your level



Or my preferred solution - rebuild as a sorcerer subclass.

[Man_Over_Game]

Here's a big thread on the same topic, where the community tried to work together to fix the Arcane Archer : https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?616164-Let-s-Fix-The-Arcane-Archer

Numbers-wise, it's between the Battlemaster and the Samurai in damage output. The 2x shots recharge on a Short Rest, so it's not like it's all that much different than a Battlemaster with a bigger effect. It doesn't have a lot of non-combat stuff, but it still gets more than almost any other Fighter subclass, so you can decide for yourself if that is a larger problem that needs addressing.

The main concern that everyone could recognize (because it's actually a decent subclass that just plays a bit clunky) was how rigid it was. The easiest thing I'd recommend is to expand the effects to all weapon attacks (making you immune to your own splash damage, and allow curving shot to attack any other enemy within range when using it with melee), and also allow it to use the highest stat between Wisdom and Intelligence (you can get both Nature and Druidcraft, no reason not to extend it to Wisdom).

The Arcane Archer is actually *stronger* as a ranged class (same is true with the Battlemaster), so extending it to melee only allows more versatility without adding more of a power curve.

Sure, it'd have overlap with the Battlemaster, but it's not like it didn't in the first place. Now you have a "Magical" Battlemaster and a "Physical" one, both with different mechanics and effects, kinda like how the Soulknife and Phantom both do the same things (more damage, better skills, better mobility) in different ways.

[Dork_Forge]

I'd give a minor intermediate damage bump, and tweak their number of uses to three per short rest.

Two feels too few to feel good, 4+ is pushing it since generally the shot options are more powerful than maneuvers.

[LordShade]

I'd make it a Ranger subclass and start there.

[Dork_Forge]

I understand all of the calls to make it a Ranger subclass, but I think that misses the aim of the subclass altogether. I think the aim was to make a magically backed archer with a nature bent as a subclass. Whilst you could make a Ranger that has those aspects, the reality is that it's already baked into the core Ranger theming and mechanics.

So I think by making it a Ranger you're just making a more Rangery subclass than normal instead of diversifying a theme, which 5e is big on with the many ways to achieve the same theme/goal. It certainly needs a mechanical tweak, but shunting the core class is imo against the design focus.

[J-H]

The 3.5 version where you could append wizard spells to your arrows was a good concept but very limited.

I would like to see Arcane Archer have some casting... but limited few-slot casting is really a Warlock thing. Then you're talking Pact Bow bla bla and it's something different.

Magic arrows and one cantrip doesn't seem like enough "arcane" in "arcane archer".
Eh.

I guess it's a weird kind of gish.

[Kane0]

I understand all of the calls to make it a Ranger subclass, but I think that misses the aim of the subclass altogether. I think the aim was to make a magically backed archer with a nature bent as a subclass. Whilst you could make a Ranger that has those aspects, the reality is that it's already baked into the core Ranger theming and mechanics.

So I think by making it a Ranger you're just making a more Rangery subclass than normal instead of diversifying a theme, which 5e is big on with the many ways to achieve the same theme/goal. It certainly needs a mechanical tweak, but shunting the core class is imo against the design focus.

Well the naturey and archery parts yes, but not the arcane aspect.

It also gives the Ranger a battlemaster-esque subclass where the fighter already has one, the ranger is a lot more fiendly to a ranged-specific subclass and if you wanted to tack on some actual casting (spells known, deliver spells via arrows, etc) the ranger is a half caster already so its much smoother than trying to do so with the fighter (which would impose on the EK)

[loki_ragnarock]

Once per turn when you fire a magic arrow from a
shortbow or longbow as part of the Attack action, you
can apply one of your Arcane Shot options to that ar—
row. You decide to use the option when the arrow hits
a creature, unless the option doesn’t involve an attack
roll. You have two uses of this ability, and you regain all
expended uses of it when you finish a short or long rest.
You gain an additional Arcane Shot option of your
choice when you reach certain levels in this class: 7th,
10th, 15th, and 18th level. Each option also improves
when you become an 18th—level fighter.

Every turn, forever.

Fixed.

[Man_Over_Game]

Once per turn when you fire a magic arrow from a
shortbow or longbow as part of the Attack action, you
can apply one of your Arcane Shot options to that ar—
row. You decide to use the option when the arrow hits
a creature, unless the option doesn’t involve an attack
roll. You have two uses of this ability, and you regain all
expended uses of it when you finish a short or long rest.
You gain an additional Arcane Shot option of your
choice when you reach certain levels in this class: 7th,
10th, 15th, and 18th level. Each option also improves
when you become an 18th—level fighter.

Every turn, forever.

Fixed.

Uh...just a heads up, here's a brief breakdown of how much damage each subclass adds when assuming each of them have Sharpshooter/GWM, are level 5, assuming only the value of damage and not conditions, with x3 encounters of x3 rounds each:

Champion (+4.2), Samurai (+35), Arcane Archer (+69), Battlemaster (+54-96)

That's under the assumption the AA has two uses per short rest, not including the value of the conditions their shots have, and that's before they get Curving Shot. You're talking about a 50% damage buff to what could very well be one of the strongest Fighter subclasses.

Here's the math I did, located in the balance stuff: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24623195&postcount=1

[Trafalgar]

Move it from Fighter to Ranger.



Or my preferred solution - rebuild as a sorcerer subclass.

My problem has always been that it doesn't feel like it should be a fighter subclass. I think both of these options are would be better. I also think that a rogue option based on Arcane Trickster would be better than the current fighter subclass. The Arcane Shot is really focused on damage but generally does less damage than a rogue's sneak attack so it feels weak.

Forgetting about game mechanics or rules for a second, lets talk about what an ideal Arcane Archer SHOULD be able to do.
-I think of Thulsa Doom in the 1980s Conan Movie. He could take a snake, turn it into an arrow and launch it from a bow. I assume that the arrow wound would have the poison from the snake in it. The arrow also seemed incapable of missing. Like maybe the snake's spirit guided the arrow. That's cool.
-The archer should, with some limits, know the exact location of their arrows at all times. So they could shoot a cart with an arrow and know exactly where the cart went. Maybe have a clairaudience ability on it. Kind of a Batman ability.
-It would be cool if the archer could extend certain spells range to that of the weapon. For example, The archer casts a web spell by shooting an arrow. When the arrow hits, it creates the 20' cube of webs at the point of impact. If the archer misses the attack, use a scatter dice to determine the impact location. So the web spell with a longbow would have a 150/600' range. I like that sort of anarchy in my games.
-I think some arrow centric out of combat abilities are needed. Like an arrow can be used to send a message several miles away. Or a "blink arrow" ability, that is instantaneous teleportation to what ever the arrow hits.

After that brainstorm, I see Arcane Archer as more of a sorcerer than any other class.

[LudicSavant]

Uh...just a heads up, here's a brief breakdown of how much damage each subclass adds when assuming each of them have Sharpshooter/GWM, are level 5, assuming only the value of damage and not conditions, with x3 encounters of x3 rounds each:

Champion (+4.2), Samurai (+35), Arcane Archer (+69), Battlemaster (+54-96)

That's under the assumption the AA has two uses per short rest, not including the value of the conditions their shots have, and that's before they get Curving Shot. You're talking about a 50% damage buff to what could very well be one of the strongest Fighter subclasses.

Here's the math I did, located in the balance stuff: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24623195&postcount=1




Takes a look.

A large chunk of your damage calculation appears to be coming from Bursting Arrow hitting 5 targets.

Note that Bursting Arrow has a small AoE size, and a limited targeting mechanism (e.g. you cannot freely place a sphere, it must be centered on a target you're attacking. In practice, this basically leads to hitting fewer creatures on average and distributing your damage less optimally).

There's also the assumptions you used for the competition, like...


SS with Advantage is roughly the value of +2.5 damage per attack compared to not having Advantage.

A level 5 VHuman with Sharpshooter vs AC 15 gets about +20 DPR from applying Advantage on an Action Surge (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DWGM7lUuor050ioLtHBNbdvO3YopcVnrnT41tXv_A_A/edit#gid=151780215), not +10. Here's the same thing on Anydice (https://anydice.com/program/234aa).

[loki_ragnarock]

Uh...just a heads up, here's a brief breakdown of how much damage each subclass adds when assuming each of them have Sharpshooter/GWM, are level 5, assuming only the value of damage and not conditions, with x3 encounters of x3 rounds each:

Champion (+4.2), Samurai (+35), Arcane Archer (+69), Battlemaster (+54-96)

That's under the assumption the AA has two uses per short rest, not including the value of the conditions their shots have, and that's before they get Curving Shot. You're talking about a 50% damage buff to what could very well be one of the strongest Fighter subclasses.

Here's the math I did, located in the balance stuff: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24623195&postcount=1




Generally, you're looking at 2d6 damage once a turn at 5th levels, for two turns per short rest.
You've noted the two exceptions to that in the other post that can potentially generate more damage, but they are conditional. One (grasping) is very strong, but starts with the most resisted or immune damage type in the game, so you could well be relying entirely on the deferred damage; damage now is generally better than damage later, as you only swing the action economy in your favor once something has dropped to zero. The other (bursting) has a stunningly good damage type, but requires clusters of enemies and has no language to prevent it from effecting allies; sure, you do more damage with it, but if the "more damage" part is coming from the hp pool of your side because you can't do the creative targeting that actual casters utilize, then I'd call that narrowly situational. Further, because the outsized bonus damage comes in a spread, it only slightly accelerates the race to zero; it makes the moments after the action economy pivots faster, but it doesn't accelerate that moment where the action economy pivots. Makes clean up faster, but the big impacts are things that accelerate the pivots.
Given that the two are also a bit anti synergistic, I'd say that's also fine; if you get initiative on your group of clustered enemies, you can shoot your bursting arrow and spread a bunch of damage! But each round you delay on the grasping arrow, the less effective it is as a damage dealer over the course of the three rounds. So do you optimize your damage to the one target, perhaps dropping them a round faster (the point of the race to zero) or do you inflate your damage numbers? They mesh, sure, but not ideally.

Standard: Turn 1: +7 Turn 2:+7 Turn 3: +0
vs.
Miniscule Tweak: Turn 1: +7 Turn 2: +7 Turn 3: +7

With some circumstances that take it well outside that range. I'm pretty cool with that; when they can work the circumstances, they should be rewarded for that. But the damage variation isn't *that* significant if you let them just play with their toys.

[Witty Username]

(Healing arrows will be a fun joke but that is the main problem I see).


Beneficial spells was a lot of fun for the 3.5 arcane archer. It had an infused arrow ability essentially using and arrow for the spell range and add an attack, but it got weird and fun for some spells.

My personal favorite was an arrow infused with protection from evil to break a demonic possession from 100ft away. PC wasn't happy that he took a crit for it though (player thought it was hilarious though).

[LudicSavant]

My personal favorite was an arrow infused with protection from evil to break a demonic possession from 100ft away. PC wasn't happy that he took a crit for it though (player thought it was hilarious though).

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/inuyasha/images/7/7c/Arrow.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/250?cb=20100630075318

[sambojin]

Just make a Moon Druid and choose your spells to fit. 16Wis, good Dex if it's a long campaign (longer than lvl5-6 from lvl1).

Create Bonfire (flaming arrows), Thorn Whip (dragging arrow), Guidance (archer's wisdom). 2/3 ain't bad, and it will be 3/3 eventually.

Lvl1 Entangle (restraining arrow), Faerie Fire (guiding arrow), Fog Cloud (smoke bomb arrow), Ice Knife (exploding arrow).

Lvl2 CR1(!) Wildshape. And you can just insta-cast in owl familiars 2/sr as an action for help-action advantage instead if you want :) . +1 whatever spell too. Healing? Yeah, we're talking Good Berries here. Definitely healing :)
A huge amount of short rest resources. You are now arcane, even before lvl3, and you're about to be really good at this....

Lvl3 Enhance Ability (dex for initiative, archer's speed), Hold Person (paralyzing arrow), Moon Beam (radiant arrow), Pass without Trace (archer's discretion), Spike Growth (barbed spikes volley).

Lvl4 ASI. It is +2 Wis. It simply is. +2Wis is very good. Slightly irrelevant swimming wildshape too, but it's there. Snakes, etc. Remember that you can bounce around as a Jaculi before this, if you want to snake-arrow you.

Lvl5 Flame Arrows (umm, bad flame arrows), Sleet Storm (explosive smoke bomb + slow arrow), Tidal Wave (explosive damage knockdown arrow, can be small or big on cast), Wind Wall (chain lightning arrow, could potentially be anti-arrow too).
If Arcane Archer had anything even remotely as openly worded as either Tidal Wave or Wind Wall is on their ability list (even if they couldn't just take Conjure Animals or Sleet Storm instead), even without Extra Attack, people would go "wow, that's an amazing lvl5 ability! That might be a bit broken somehow." They're good arrows, they are :)

14 spells, with 10 choices available from them each day at lvl6 with 18Wis, and 3 cantrips. 4xlvl1/3xlvl2/3xlvl3 slots available, so 10, vs heaps of save types, to fit any particular foe or situation. Expect to drop concentration a bit to do something else immediately, but it's really not too much worse than what 2/sr arcane arrows could give you by lvl3-6.

Wildshape: Giant Spider (rappelling snare arrow form), Dilophosaurus (poison/ blind/ paralyze bombs), Frilled Deathspitter (poison/ blinding archer berserker form), Giant Spitting Lizard (multi-poison-shot defensive grapple form), Tasha's wildshape charge Find Familiar (archer's assistant) by lvl6 too. Again, just blow through wildshape charges like you do concentration, either to reform into a wildshape (Giant Spider for instance after you've webbed once), or just go back into "caster" form for more spell casting/ "arcane arrows", or to keep up advantage with your familiar for sharpshooter'd downtime shots. It's a bit more control'y than damage'y, but it's not terrible either.

By lvl5-6, you've got more fun types of "shooting" than you ever will with an Arcane Archer, even with just one attack. Not too much reskinning needed other than for wildshape forms.

There's nothing really stopping you going high Dex and Wis and throwing some fighter levels in there too (Moon Druid 6/ BM Fighter 6 is plenty feat'd up, and is way better at having tonnes of specific-use ranged attacks per long/ short rest than an AA could ever hope for with all the manoeuvres and spells and wildshapes you have). This is aside from the fact that at Druid lvl5&7 you can summon in extra "archers" with Conjure Animals and Conjure Woodland Beings, and even as some of the "weakest" potential summons, they're more than an Arcane Archer could ever possibly do. Or that Extra Attack is amazing with non-multiattack wildshape forms. Yes, a Giant Spitting Lizard could spit twice with Extra Attack, and even Action Surge to spit twice more, with archery style +2 to-hit. Ouch!
(And if there was a turn of setup before then, you may have advantage on the whole lot of them 😎)

But going straight Moon until 6, then grabbing +2 archery-style through Fighter 1 at 7, Action Surge at 8, Battle Master at 9 (this is friggen huge btw), ASI at 10, Extra Attack1 at 11, ASI/spare-feat at 12 (or an extra Druid level for druid 7/ lvl4 spells) won't make you feel weak by any means, even if you're just taking a very small subset of "what you could do with this build". And you will be way better as an "Arcane Archer" by doing so, with very little loss of damage, but with a tonne more options to do it with. And there's no actual wasted levels, just a more awesome "Arcane Archer".

Tasha's "weird background" to plug in the Sharpshooter feat at lvl1, or v.human it in, so when you and all the other party members weapon hit (restrain, paralyze, blind, not-obscured-to-me, proned, basic advantage, help actions, etc), you do it hard as well. Not taking disadvantage at long range helps a lot with wildshape form's shooting too.

Still, other than a few potential Tasha's bonuses, it's not like this sort of stuff wasn't in the PHB to begin with, so tweak it from there.

Circle of the Land for more slots/ pre-prepped spells (PHB), and Circle of the Stars for archer constellation bonus action shots and Guiding Bolt slots works fine too (Tasha's) if Moon Archer "wildforms" aren't your giggity.

[Foxydono]

I first thought the arcane archer was awesone. Unlimited uses of at arcane shots!! Turned out I didn't read the whole text and arcane shot has a limited amount of uses. Pff, the excitement for the class quickly faded.

Long story short: up the uses of arcane shots to one for each class level or another amount you and your DM see as appropriate.

[jas61292]

Arcane Archer is a balanced class, but it just does not feel good. A lot of people want to just mildly increase the number of arcane shots they get, but that is bad from a balance perspective. Their shots are better than a battlemaster's maneuvers, so making those closer to even will make the Arcane Archer just a superior option. And increasing the number but weakening them is also poor game design, because then you have just made Battlemaster 2.0. If your issue is that you like Battlemaster, but want a cool ranged, arcane theme, then just refluff your Battlemaster. Don't change the mechanics of a balanced class to duplicate one that already exists.

If you do want to adjust Arcane Archer though because of the aformentioned issue that it does not feel good, then I think there are two ways to go about it.

First, you could give it a more "magic" feel without actually changing the shots at all. Give more cantrips, and add utility abilities that run off magic. Don't change the main combat basics of them, but give them other features that just make them feel more magic. Sort of like how basic cantrips make wizards feel more magic by preventing them from relying on crossbows, having more magic for other situations could do the same here.

Alternatively, you can change their battle stuff, but if you do, how I would do it would be to totally nerf the abilities, but make them at will. Again, don't make them battlemaster power with battlemaster uses. That's poor design. Instead make them have very basic effects, with little to no extra damage, but let them do them whenever. Let the main combat prowess come from the fighter chassis, and only have the Arcane Shots be minor buffs. The at will nature will make up for the weaker power.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Takes a look.

A large chunk of your damage calculation appears to be coming from Bursting Arrow hitting 5 targets.

Note that Bursting Arrow has a small AoE size, and a limited targeting mechanism (e.g. you cannot freely place a sphere, it must be centered on a target you're attacking. In practice, this basically leads to hitting fewer creatures on average and distributing your damage less optimally).

...


Yeah, that's some not-good calculations. For comparison, monster CR calculations assume that you hit 2 targets with their AoEs. Yes, even dragons and 60 foot cone breath weapons. So assuming that Bursting Arrow hits 5 targets is... yeah, a little whack.

...
Alternatively, you can change their battle stuff, but if you do, how I would do it would be to totally nerf the abilities, but make them at will. Again, don't make them battlemaster power with battlemaster uses. That's poor design. Instead make them have very basic effects, with little to no extra damage, but let them do them whenever. Let the main combat prowess come from the fighter chassis, and only have the Arcane Shots be minor buffs. The at will nature will make up for the weaker power.This is how I'd prefer to "fix" the Arcane Archer. At-will minor magical effects. Tone down the damage to +1d6 or less, even, but make it 1/round (or maybe once per Attack action, let it stack with that Action Surge) and with no usage limitation.

[Man_Over_Game]

Generally, you're looking at 2d6 damage once a turn at 5th levels, for two turns per short rest.


It's a little more than that. The grasping shot deals a guaranteed 2d6, and then a circumstancial 2d6. I had circumstantial effects succeed 50% of the time, so the total minimal damage value from an Arcane Archer is about 10.5 damage per Arcane Shot (assuming the other shots are of equal tactical value). Which is about the same damage of an extra attack each turn, if you're doing it each turn.


Takes a look.

A large chunk of your damage calculation appears to be coming from Bursting Arrow hitting 5 targets.

Note that Bursting Arrow has a small AoE size, and a limited targeting mechanism (e.g. you cannot freely place a sphere, it must be centered on a target you're attacking. In practice, this basically leads to hitting fewer creatures on average and distributing your damage less optimally).

There's also the assumptions you used for the competition, like...



A level 5 VHuman with Sharpshooter vs AC 15 gets about +20 DPR from applying Advantage on an Action Surge (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DWGM7lUuor050ioLtHBNbdvO3YopcVnrnT41tXv_A_A/edit#gid=151780215), not +10. Here's the same thing on Anydice (https://anydice.com/program/234aa).

5 hits is a bit high, but I was trying to use consistent rules that everyone could recognize as an acceptable standard. Like having the number of targets hit being equal to one side of the square of that AOE (so a 5x5 square with Bursting Shot hits 5 targets). But a more reasonable number is probably 3, which still totals to 21 damage instead of 35, which lowers the average from 22.5 damage per shot to 17.5. Which is a 10-damage-per-encounter difference, but still pretty dang solid.

I also think there might be something wrong with the calculations. The character should have a +7 to hit, I think, instead of +9. Most of my calculations were done under the assumption that the weapon damage was 2d6 and not 1d8, and GWM/SS get a lot more value the weaker your attacks are, so that could also be playing a huge part. Bit too busy to double check today, tho.


Yeah, that's some not-good calculations. For comparison, monster CR calculations assume that you hit 2 targets with their AoEs. Yes, even dragons and 60 foot cone breath weapons. So assuming that Bursting Arrow hits 5 targets is... yeah, a little whack.

Most monsters are built around the idea of having their powers and being stuck with what they can do. They blow all of them as they can, and then they die.

A player, however, can do something much more valuable if, for instance, they can only hit two targets with Burning Hands. An uncast spell for a monster is a waste, while an uncast spell for a player is a better spell. For instance, Magic Missile might be a lot better for damage against fewer targets (after considering the save chance), so the two-target rule doesn't apply for players.

For players, a spell is *either* the higher value between an AOE with an ideal number of targets or a powerful single-target effect.

[loki_ragnarock]

5 hits is a bit high, but I was trying to use consistent rules that everyone could recognize as an acceptable standard. Like having the number of targets hit being equal to one side of the square of that AOE (so a 5x5 square with Bursting Shot hits 5 targets). But a more reasonable number is probably 3, which still totals to 21 damage instead of 35, which lowers the average from 22.5 damage per shot to 17.5. Which is a 10-damage-per-encounter difference, but still pretty dang solid.


How much of that is happening to your fellow players?

Again, the nature of the targeting mechanism can severely curtail that damage calculation; factor out damage done to party as negative damage, and the amount falls further still. Fireball covers a massive area, sure, soundburst covers a similar area, but both of them can be pretty precisely targeted to avoid the party when they aren't limited to centering themselves exactly where the target is standing. That the damage is high in some rounds is balanced against negative damage as many scenarios.
It's similar to the "how much damage can you do with a barbarian" thread I responded to a while ago; nothing beats an Aasimar desert Storm Herald in a genuinely absurd scenario, and I did that math understanding the scenario was absurd. The weight you've put on Bursting isn't as absurd... but it's still not quite in line with the reality of the ability.
Which is to say, assuming five targets is fair. Just assume two of them are allies and it cancels out the galloping ahead.

Letting an AA do their thing every turn isn't that big a change in reality.

[LudicSavant]

Yeah, that's some not-good calculations.

Aye, very much so.


That's under the assumption the AA has two uses per short rest, not including the value of the conditions their shots have, and that's before they get Curving Shot. You're talking about a 50% damage buff to what could very well be one of the strongest Fighter subclasses.


So as far as where the Arcane Archer sits, it is pretty dang strong. A slight nerf could be afforded

I think you're going to want to check those figures that you based this conclusion on.

Also, seeking clarification: What's the 50% damage buff you're referring to? Is it Curving Shot? Because Curving Shot is not actually worth +50% DPR.


5 hits is a bit high, but I was trying to use consistent rules that everyone could recognize as an acceptable standard. Like having the number of targets hit being equal to one side of the square of that AOE (so a 5x5 square with Bursting Shot hits 5 targets). But a more reasonable number is probably 3, which still totals to 21 damage instead of 35, which lowers the average from 22.5 damage per shot to 17.5. Which is a 10-damage-per-encounter difference, but still pretty dang solid.

It's not just the number of targets hit, but also the fact that you're treating spread-out-damage as equivalent in value to focused-target-damage.

For example, under your metric (if I'm reading it correctly) you would consider Fireball to hit 8 targets (since it has an 8x8 radius), and thus be worth 8*8d6=224 damage... and then just comparing that directly to the (underestimated) single target damage of other subclasses. Now imagine if there was a level 3 spell that could do that kind of damage to just one target. Not really the same value, right?

Another issue is that Bursting Arrow is a bit worse than an AoE of comparable size, due to the fact that it has to be centered on a creature. This lack of freedom in placement frequently leads to less optimal target coverage.


The character should have a +7 to hit, I think, instead of +9.

No, +9 is correct.

This is due to the Archery Fighting Style, which basically every Sharpshooter Fighter should have. +3 Prof +4 Dex +2 Archery = 9.


Most of my calculations were done under the assumption that the weapon damage was 2d6 and not 1d8, and GWM/SS get a lot more value the weaker your attacks are, so that could also be playing a huge part. Bit too busy to double check today, tho.

Also incorrect. In fact you have it backwards, since you're measuring the value of the Samurai's Advantage (which gets bigger the stronger the attacks are) as opposed to the value of GWM/SS.

Here's the math for +7 base to hit, GWM/GWF, level 5 Samurai vs AC 15: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x1KqOYAvXmh4tdQOuDCVdPzmjzhDtKCFxFeNPFSsF_E/edit?usp=sharing

Here's the same thing on AnyDice: https://anydice.com/program/234dc

In this case, we can see that a single Fighting Spirit is worth about +23 DPR, far exceeding your "2.5 per attack" figure. And it's not like this is even the best case for the Samurai (basically, the more damage you add to the attack through buffs and stuff, the more the Advantage is worth).

[Witty Username]

I would not agree that Arcane shots are better than battle master maneuvers.
Arcane shots deal more damage generally, but they also tend to have weaker save DCs, and need to be used pre hit and the secondary effects are all over the place.
Is Beguiling Arrow better than Goading Attack, for example? By enough that it would cause an issue to give the AA more shots per rest?

The only shot that gives me pause on this is Grasping Arrow, but even that is hurt by the whiff chance of missing the shot.

[LudicSavant]

I would not agree that Arcane shots are better than battle master maneuvers.
Arcane shots deal more damage generally, but they also tend to have weaker save DCs, and need to be used pre hit and the secondary effects are all over the place.
Is Beguiling Arrow better than Goading Attack, for example? By enough that it would cause an issue to give the AA more shots per rest?

The only shot that gives me pause on this is Grasping Arrow, but even that is hurt by the whiff chance of missing the shot.

They actually changed Arcane Archer from the original UA -- it lets you decide to use Arcane Shot when the arrow hits, now.


You decide to use the option when the arrow hits a creature

[Witty Username]

They actually changed Arcane Archer from the original UA -- it lets you decide to use Arcane Shot when the arrow hits, now.

Oh, whoops, I didn't finish reading the paragraph. My bad.

That makes the non DC stuff apply to only Piercing Arrow and Seeking Arrow? Probably just don't take those.

P.S. Mulling it over the DC thing is really annoying for most of these. Some of these effects look really fun if you could invest in the int to make them reliable. And I actually forgot that you don't get more than 2 arrows per rest until 15th level and that is not an easy to control option.

[Dork_Forge]

Oh, whoops, I didn't finish reading the paragraph. My bad.

That makes the non DC stuff apply to only Piercing Arrow and Seeking Arrow? Probably just don't take those.

P.S. Mulling it over the DC thing is really annoying for most of these. Some of these effects look really fun if you could invest in the int to make them reliable. And I actually forgot that you don't get more than 2 arrows per rest until 15th level and that is not an easy to control option.

Arcane Archer using Int isn't a bad thing, secondary stats help diversify subclasses and give them more identity and if anyone can afford to take on a secondary stat it's the Fighter chassis.

Two arrows feels a little too restrictive, but they also made the arrows powerful enough that you can't really stray too far from that reasonably, besides the SADness of maneivers shot options are on average just more powerful (and can be combined with maneuvers easily).

Something I don't think has been mentioned so far though is the outlying of the 7th level ability, Curving Arrow is a huge boon, especially for a Sharpshooter and it comes online at a level where most other Fighters are getting more thematic and ribbon abilities.


Honestly the more I look at the subclass the more I think just slapping an intermediate powerbump on the shots and possible a 3rd arrow and call it done. It isn't a bad subclass, it just isn't quite where it should ideally be.

[Witty Username]

I still don't by the Arcane shots being better than maneuvers generally.
Grasping Arrow, Banishing Arrow and Shadow Arrow feel like the only ones that could lay any claim to that. Furthermore, Shadow Arrow feels like it would be about as bad as being hit with a Menacing Attack and Banishing Arrow trades dealing damage (until 18th level) for its effect.

[LudicSavant]

My main beef with the Arcane Archer is its feel. It doesn't deliver on the fantasy of what I want an Arcane Archer to be.

It's basically an archer that uses a Shadow Arrow (which is basically an Advantage generator for ranged parties) or a Grasping Arrow (which is mostly about other people grinding down the enemy with Repelling Blast, Telekinetic, or the like for extra DPR) at the opening of a combat.

[Mastikator]

I'm using battlemaster as a baseline because it's considered a good subclass with similar mechanics (damage + rider effect)



Level
Battlemaster superiority dice
Rider effects
Average damage
Arcane Archer
Rider effects
Average damage
Fixed? Arcane Archer
Rider effects
Average damage


3
4d8 4 18
4d6 2 14
4d6 2 14


7
5d8 5 22.5
4d6 2 14
6d6 3 21


10
5d10 5 27.5
4d6 2 14
8d6 4 28


15
6d10 6 33
4d6 2 14
10d6 5 35


18
6d12 6 39
8d6 2 28
24d6 6 84



Compare the regular arcane archer to the battlemaster, half the number of rider effects and they most likely have lower DC. So I'd say Battlemaster is most likely better at rider effects than arcane archer. From a damage point of view the battlemaster also wins and the arcane archer never catches up.

However if you set number of arcane shots = proficiency bonus it keeps up well up until 15 where arcane archer slightly surpasses damage while having fewer (and probably worse) rider effects. Then at 18 the damage goes wild so with that fix I'd probably not increase arcane shot damage to 4d6. Which would keep it at 12d6 (~42) which is very close to the battlemaster.

[Theodoxus]

The damage boost at 18 is the only thing the archetype gets. So, if you don't double the damage (which I agree would be necessary if you were to implement this change), what would you do instead?

It's for reasons like this that I'm thinking of using my Fighter rebuild, putting BM into the baseline Fighter. Then Arcane Arrow Shots ARE Superiority Dice and you get to use both shots and maneuvers as interchangeably, up to 6 times a short rest. I wouldn't increase the damage going that route, however.

Personally, I'd "fix" the Arcane Archer by putting a lot more "Arcane" peanut butter into the "Archer" chocolate. Whether that's creating another 8 shots based around the schools of magic (because there's a LOT of room left in that tank) or granting them a small pool of spells they can cast... maybe a 1st level spell of the same school their shots are chosen from... castable 1/short rest. Something that actually makes them feel magical without going all the way to EK.

So, for the spell pool, I'd probably change Arcane Shot to read:

ARCANE SHOT
At 3rd level, you learn to unleash special magical effects with some of your shots. When you gain this feature, you learn two Arcane Shot options of your choice (see Arcane Shot Options below).
Once per turn when you fire a magic arrow from a shortbow or longbow as part of the Attack action, you can apply one of your Arcane Shot options to that arrow. You decide to use the option when the arrow hits a creature unless the option does not involve an attack roll.
You gain an additional Arcane Shot option of your choice when you reach certain levels in this class: 7th, 10th, 15th, and 18th level. Each option also improves when you become an 18th-level fighter.
You can also choose one of two spells listed with the Arcane Shot Option. You can cast the chosen spell once per short or long rest. Intelligence is your spell casting stat and the spell is always cast at 1st level.

Then, for example:
Banishing Arrow. You use abjuration magic to try to temporarily banish your target to a harmless location in the Feywild. The creature hit by the arrow must also succeed on a Charisma saving throw or be banished. While banished in this way, the target is restrained and incapacitated. At the end of its next turn, the target reappears in the s pace it vacated or in the nearest unoccupied space if that space is occupied.
After you reach 18th level in this class, a target also takes 2d6 force damage when the arrow hits it.
Spell Choices: Choose between mage armor and protection from evil and good.

I wouldn't offer "tier 1" spells. absorb elements and shield would almost make the archetype dip worthy. I like mage armor for a fighter though - since the "archer" equipment package offers leather armor, MA is +2 AC better, castable every short rest means you'll never be without it...

[Dork_Forge]

I still don't by the Arcane shots being better than maneuvers generally.
Grasping Arrow, Banishing Arrow and Shadow Arrow feel like the only ones that could lay any claim to that. Furthermore, Shadow Arrow feels like it would be about as bad as being hit with a Menacing Attack and Banishing Arrow trades dealing damage (until 18th level) for its effect.

Not all maneuvers add damage for their effects either, incapacitating a creature can be extremely valuable, as can giving the party a round to breathe and prepare/deal with the stragglers.

Not all creatures will be susceptible to the frightened condition, where as Shadow can shut down a large number of abilities (including spells) that require sight in addition to the advantage/disadvantage it grants.

You don't seem to give any recognition here to the AOE effects the AA can generate, which the BM archer is completely unable to replicate in anyway (having seen a few Gunslingers, a line attack is suprisingly useful too), nevermind the arrows that ignore cover or autodetect the enemy.



I'm using battlemaster as a baseline because it's considered a good subclass with similar mechanics (damage + rider effect)



Level
Battlemaster superiority dice
Rider effects
Average damage
Arcane Archer
Rider effects
Average damage
Fixed? Arcane Archer
Rider effects
Average damage


3
4d8 4 18
4d6 2 14
4d6 2 14


7
5d8 5 22.5
4d6 2 14
6d6 3 21


10
5d10 5 27.5
4d6 2 14
8d6 4 28


15
6d10 6 33
4d6 2 14
10d6 5 35


18
6d12 6 39
8d6 2 28
24d6 6 84



Compare the regular arcane archer to the battlemaster, half the number of rider effects and they most likely have lower DC. So I'd say Battlemaster is most likely better at rider effects than arcane archer. From a damage point of view the battlemaster also wins and the arcane archer never catches up.

However if you set number of arcane shots = proficiency bonus it keeps up well up until 15 where arcane archer slightly surpasses damage while having fewer (and probably worse) rider effects. Then at 18 the damage goes wild so with that fix I'd probably not increase arcane shot damage to 4d6. Which would keep it at 12d6 (~42) which is very close to the battlemaster.

I could be wrong here, but looking at your table it doesn't seem like you're taking into consideration either Curving Shot or Ever Ready Shot for the Arcane Archer or Relentless for the Battlemaster.

The table also assumes that the Battle Master is always using a maneuver that provides additional damage.

General suggestion: What if instead of just doubling up at 18th level, there's gradual die size increases spread throughout progression like the BM?

[Witty Username]

You don't seem to give any recognition here to the AOE effects the AA can generate, which the BM archer is completely unable to replicate in anyway (having seen a few Gunslingers, a line attack is suprisingly useful too), nevermind the arrows that ignore cover or autodetect the enemy.

I recognize they're there, I just know care particularly much. low damage AOEs are inherently situational, and having an option that the other doesn't does not equal their abilities are generally better.
Seeking Arrow is fun to read, but it needs to be called in advance and in most situations will amount to Precision Attack as far as I can tell.

This is more or less why I a doubtful. the Arcane Shots aren't necessarily better and when they out perform it is in more niche situations or by a few points (avg +2.5 min +1, max +4) of damage. This is meaningful when the argument is that they should half as many uses. At 18th level this tune changes, but it is also 18th level, balance isn't that big of a concern by that point, IMO.

I do want to be clear, I am not suggesting the fix should be Moar Shots. I am just incredulous that giving them more than 2 shots before 15th level would be game breaking.

I personally would lean toward full rewrite and/or port to Ranger or Wizard.

[Dork_Forge]

I recognize they're there, I just know care particularly much. low damage AOEs are inherently situational, and having an option that the other doesn't does not equal their abilities are generally better.
Seeking Arrow is fun to read, but it needs to be called in advance and in most situations will amount to Precision Attack as far as I can tell.

This is more or less why I a doubtful. the Arcane Shots aren't necessarily better and when they out perform it is in more niche situations or by a few points (avg +2.5 min +1, max +4) of damage. This is meaningful when the argument is that they should half as many uses. At 18th level this tune changes, but it is also 18th level, balance isn't that big of a concern by that point, IMO.

I do want to be clear, I am not suggesting the fix should be Moar Shots. I am just incredulous that giving them more than 2 shots before 15th level would be game breaking.

I personally would lean toward full rewrite and/or port to Ranger or Wizard.

I'll start by clarifying my position in this thread: They are not where they need to be and I've already suggested they move up to 3 shots per rest, though perhaps the 3rd one unlocks at 5th or 6th level.

Bursting Arrow: It's still a normal attack, so that 2d6 AOE is getting added onto the AA's normal attack (potentially with SS or whatever else). This basically makes the arrow a Fighter Smite with an AOE rider, and whilst it's lower damage, it's automatic force damage. No save for half, they just take 2d6 force.

That is just straight better for damage than any maneiver I can think of, unless you're talking precision vs a high AC target and are taking accuracy into account and even then, I'd lean on Bursting over Precision.

Piercing Arrow: Target Dex saves instead of AC (can itself be useful) and can hit multiple targets with an extra 1d6 of damage, so we can assume 1d8+1d6+5 at it's peak most of the time. 13 damage on average, save for half whilst only taking up a single attack is pretty darn good, it also ignores all cover so you can even shoot through walls and what not which makes it infinitely easier to aim for maximum targets.

Seeking Arrow: I really don't understand why you mark declaring it first as a weakness, it turns the attack into a save for half Dex save, guaranteeing some degree of damage. Precision Attack doesn't guarantee anything. The bonus of knowning where the target is more niche, but the core of the ability itself is solid.

Perspective: The AA toolkit potentially offers far more to deal with disadvantage conditions than the Battle Master, and you need keep in mind that unlike the BM, the AA can make use of their shots and maneuvers. That's definitely a knock on effect that needs to be taken into consideration since you can now get two SD on a chracter without needing the subclass.

[Witty Username]

Seeking Arrow: I really don't understand why you mark declaring it first as a weakness, it turns the attack into a save for half Dex save, guaranteeing some degree of damage. Precision Attack doesn't guarantee anything. The bonus of knowing where the target is more niche, but the core of the ability itself is solid.

My reasoning is that Seeking Arrow and Precision Attack would be used in similar situations of cover, high AC and/or disadvantage on the attack. Given this the AA would call a Seeking Arrow and use a shot while the BM would make a standard attack and use a precision attack if they miss. this means a BM can save the dice if they happen to hit without it and the AA doesn't get that opportunity. This does come with some trade offs in comparison: Seeking Arrow is guaranteed half damage, while using precision attack doesn't guarantee turning a miss into a hit.
Edge cases:
1. Total cover, Seeking Arrow can hit a creature with total cover so it will always be better in that situation.
2. The Unseen attacker, Seeking Arrow requires the AA to have seen the target in the last minute so certain kinds of hidden enemies, like dark rooms, invisible attackers, and what have you can mess with it. Precision attack has no such restriction.
Overall, these abilities don't feel very far apart for me.
I realize writing this that Sharpshooter could be a factor, but I do not know how Sharpshooter interacts with Seeking Arrow.

But I will give fair point on AA being generally better at dealing damage, and can mix in superiority dice now. And it sounds like we mostly agree on the number of shots situation.

[Dork_Forge]

My reasoning is that Seeking Arrow and Precision Attack would be used in similar situations of cover, high AC and/or disadvantage on the attack. Given this the AA would call a Seeking Arrow and use a shot while the BM would make a standard attack and use a precision attack if they miss. this means a BM can save the dice if they happen to hit without it and the AA doesn't get that opportunity. This does come with some trade offs in comparison: Seeking Arrow is guaranteed half damage, while using precision attack doesn't guarantee turning a miss into a hit.
Edge cases:
1. Total cover, Seeking Arrow can hit a creature with total cover so it will always be better in that situation.
2. The Unseen attacker, Seeking Arrow requires the AA to have seen the target in the last minute so certain kinds of hidden enemies, like dark rooms, invisible attackers, and what have you can mess with it. Precision attack has no such restriction.
Overall, these abilities don't feel very far apart for me.
I realize writing this that Sharpshooter could be a factor, but I do not know how Sharpshooter interacts with Seeking Arrow.

But I will give fair point on AA being generally better at dealing damage, and can mix in superiority dice now. And it sounds like we mostly agree on the number of shots situation.

Sharpshooter doesn't really interact with Seeking Arrow at all because you're not making an attack.

You seem to just be considering the potential of turning a hit into a miss/some degree of damage, it should be noted that Seeking Arrow adds 1d6 to the damage, whereas Precision Attack is purely a to hit boost.

[Mastikator]

I could be wrong here, but looking at your table it doesn't seem like you're taking into consideration either Curving Shot or Ever Ready Shot for the Arcane Archer or Relentless for the Battlemaster.

The table also assumes that the Battle Master is always using a maneuver that provides additional damage.

General suggestion: What if instead of just doubling up at 18th level, there's gradual die size increases spread throughout progression like the BM?

Yes, it also assumes that arcane archer doesn't use Banishing Arrow which does no extra damage. I am indeed assuming (for simplicity) that both sides are optimizing for damage and that both sides only get to use all of their damage on single lone targets.

I also didn't outline when arcane archer will receive extra arcane shots due to proficiency bonus increase when leveling up. Because I am too lazy.

My problem with a gradual die increase is that only having 2 arcane shots per short rest is REALLY limiting. Even if the arcane shots starts to hit a bit harder you're not after the damage really, it's the rider effects. I picked Grasping Arrow and Shadow Arrow not because I want to do an extra 2d6 psychic or poison damage but because they cause blindness (1 round) or slowness + damage (10 rounds, until action expended to remove). It's the combat control. If I got to choose between more damage and CC ability on a fighter, I'd pick CC.
This problem is not felt by the battlemaster who starts out with 4 CC + damage attacks per short rest and ends up with 6.

[Dork_Forge]

My problem with a gradual die increase is that only having 2 arcane shots per short rest is REALLY limiting. Even if the arcane shots starts to hit a bit harder you're not after the damage really, it's the rider effects. I picked Grasping Arrow and Shadow Arrow not because I want to do an extra 2d6 psychic or poison damage but because they cause blindness (1 round) or slowness + damage (10 rounds, until action expended to remove). It's the combat control. If I got to choose between more damage and CC ability on a fighter, I'd pick CC.
This problem is not felt by the battlemaster who starts out with 4 CC + damage attacks per short rest and ends up with 6.

I think that a 3rd shot should be there, probably around 5th level, but I don't think it's really far off. It's the Warlock slots version of a subclass resource.

The Battlemaster doesn't feel this problem, but the maneuvers don't off the same level of CC and don't diversify damage type. If you don't have a magic weapon, and you're fighting something resistant or immune to nonmagical damage, AA has ways to get around that (not including the ability to make their arrows magical at 7th) whereas the BM doesn't.

Likewise all of the combat power of the BM comes from their maneuvers, their 7th level ability is out of combat only realistically. Meanwhile Curving Shot is a pretty great accuracy bump provided you're not fighitng a single target and throws in magical damage.

The comparison isn't as straightforward as comparing their relative ability uses, though it is understandably where this kind of thing normally goes.

I think initially more than two would be overtuned, but there should be more scaling included along the way.

[MrStabby]

I think that a 3rd shot should be there, probably around 5th level, but I don't think it's really far off. It's the Warlock slots version of a subclass resource.

The Battlemaster doesn't feel this problem, but the maneuvers don't off the same level of CC and don't diversify damage type. If you don't have a magic weapon, and you're fighting something resistant or immune to nonmagical damage, AA has ways to get around that (not including the ability to make their arrows magical at 7th) whereas the BM doesn't.

Likewise all of the combat power of the BM comes from their maneuvers, their 7th level ability is out of combat only realistically. Meanwhile Curving Shot is a pretty great accuracy bump provided you're not fighitng a single target and throws in magical damage.

The comparison isn't as straightforward as comparing their relative ability uses, though it is understandably where this kind of thing normally goes.

I think initially more than two would be overtuned, but there should be more scaling included along the way.

I wouldn't mind some more complex arrow crafting rules that would add some more out of combat engagement to the class. What tools, skills, enchantments and physical components would be needed for certain enhanced arrows. A little bit more power here, but potentially some fun RP/Questing as well.

[Theodoxus]

If you don't have a magic weapon, and you're fighting something resistant or immune to nonmagical damage, AA has ways to get around that (not including the ability to make their arrows magical at 7th) whereas the BM doesn't.

Can you expound on this? Arcane Shot requires a magic arrow. Before 7th level, your arrows aren't natively magical. So, how are you getting around resistance to non-magical piercing damage?

[stoutstien]

my personal option is that the AA would make a better setting neutral version of the gunner or thunder cannon concept subclass option for artificers. it wouldn't need much rework to port over and the artificer has a better chassis to morph around the limited scope of the AA.

[Witty Username]

my personal option is that the AA would make a better setting neutral version of the gunner or thunder cannon concept subclass option for artificers. it wouldn't need much rework to port over and the artificer has a better chassis to morph around the limited scope of the AA.
Like a more medieval version of the artillerist or battlesmith?
Seems like it could work.

[Dork_Forge]

I wouldn't mind some more complex arrow crafting rules that would add some more out of combat engagement to the class. What tools, skills, enchantments and physical components would be needed for certain enhanced arrows. A little bit more power here, but potentially some fun RP/Questing as well.

Oh I'd love some rules for crafting different arrows mixed in, suddenly you could have a codified grapple arrow etc. to overcome obstacles.



Can you expound on this? Arcane Shot requires a magic arrow. Before 7th level, your arrows aren't natively magical. So, how are you getting around resistance to non-magical piercing damage?

That was the original printing, it was errata'd to remove the 'magical arrow' part, it now just says when you fire an arrow.

So they can get around it by using additional damage types granted through their shot options, like force.

[Theodoxus]

Nifty. Too bad errata isn't auto injected into my books, cuz I don't think I ever saw it. And it's not like I think about going to look for it... My blunder.

[Dork_Forge]

Nifty. Too bad errata isn't auto injected into my books, cuz I don't think I ever saw it. And it's not like I think about going to look for it... My blunder.

Easily done, I check every now and then for errata, but sometimes learn about it for the first time when someone says something on here that doesn't match my memory or books.

[KillerKam211]

1) Add intermediate Arcane Shot boosts. Instead of 2d6 and 3rd level and 4d6 at 18th level, I'd probably go with:
3rd 2d6
9th 3d6
14th 4d6
18th 5d6
2) Add the ability to Concentrate on the effects of one of your arrows to extend the duration. Applies to Beguiling, Banishing, Enfeebling.
3) Add additional Arcane shot uses. I considered copying Battlemaster (4->6), but I realized that INT provides no benefit except boosting spell save DCs. I'd say you get Arcane Shot uses equal to 2+INT mod per short rest.

I like this idea, except for the fact that some of the arrow options only deal 1d6 (2d6) additional damage. I would personally keep the amount shots the same but have damage increment as the following...
3rd - 1d6/2d6
10th - 2d6/4d6
18th - 3d6/6d6
The damage with these number (2*6d6 = 42) should be approximate to what a Battlemaster would do for pure damage (6*1d12 = 39). I also like the idea of giving the subclass something at level 10, the only level to not get a feature besides an additional shot option. The idea of concentration is cool too, and I think building some other shot options built around it would give them more utility.

[heavyfuel]

Here are the changes I made to AA in my games:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?612630-Minor-changes-to-Arcane-Archer-(PEACH)

Basically gives them a free magic weapon at 3rd and gives at will Magic Missile at 7th.

The campaign in which a player used this homebrew reached level 10, and the at-will MM never felt strong. It was barely used at all, in fact. In the 4 levels which the PC had access to it, he used it maybe 5 times, every time it was against an enemy who probably already dead, but the player didn't want to risk the attack roll.

In retrospect, I wouldn't give an intermediate damage boost, but I would give more uses per rest. Probably PB uses per rest, and allowing you to use multiple shots in the same round at 15th level

[Leon]

Remove Bow only restrictions
PB shots per rest
Magic Arrow merged into either arcane Shot or Lore ~ During a short rest you infuse some of your magic into the ranged weapon you hold during this small ritual and treat each arrow you fire as being magical, magic dissipates on hit or miss

At Lvl 7 where Magic arrow formerly was i'd have them get a feature that was effectively the Magic Initiate feat except its tied to the magic they chose with the Lore cantrip (So Wiz/Sorc or Druid) the AAs magic potential expands and they acquire minor spellcasting.

[Dork_Forge]

Remove Bow only restrictions
PB shots per rest
Magic Arrow merged into either arcane Shot or Lore ~ During a short rest you infuse some of your magic into the ranged weapon you hold during this small ritual and treat each arrow you fire as being magical, magic dissipates on hit or miss

At Lvl 7 where Magic arrow formerly was i'd have them get a feature that was effectively the Magic Initiate feat except its tied to the magic they chose with the Lore cantrip (So Wiz/Sorc or Druid) the AAs magic potential expands and they acquire minor spellcasting.

This would become crazy power from slightly undertuned IMO, that's a lot of shots per short rest.

[Leon]

Then limit it to per long rest, either way 2 shots is far to few

[Dork_Forge]

Then limit it to per long rest, either way 2 shots is far to few

Personally I'd go with either 3 per short rest, or Int per long rest and through another level of scaling for the shot option damage at around 10th level.

The shot options themselves are actually really good, the hang-up is that it feels bad to only have your main schtick twice per short rest. This is basically the Warlock of subclasses.

[TyGuy]

I feel like a found a decent balance by applying superiority dice scaling to arcane shots.
Bump from 2 to 3 at level 7 and 4 at level 15. Increase damage 1d6 at level 10 and another 1d6 at level 18.
It's the exact same progression as battle master.

[Dork_Forge]

I feel like a found a decent balance by applying superiority dice scaling to arcane shots.
Bump from 2 to 3 at level 7 and 4 at level 15. Increase damage 1d6 at level 10 and another 1d6 at level 18.
It's the exact same progression as battle master.

This sounds like a good option

[Psyren]

PB + Int shots per long rest feels right to me. Rewards you for that 14/16 immediately but it still feels like a meaningful limit at most levels of play.

[Dork_Forge]

PB + Int shots per long rest feels right to me. Rewards you for that 14/16 immediately but it still feels like a meaningful limit at most levels of play.

Agree with the end result numbers, but making both factors something that can be progressed outside of the class feels a bit iffy, though I suppose not entirely out of the new paradigm.

[Leon]

PB + Int shots per long rest feels right to me. Rewards you for that 14/16 immediately but it still feels like a meaningful limit at most levels of play.

Seems like a good compromise