The Elder Scrolls: The XVII Princes of Oblivion [Archive]

LibraryOgre

2021-07-16, 02:22 PM

Welcome, one and all, to the latest thread for us to discuss, debate, and rag on our favorite series of Bethesda RPGs!

Previous threads:

Who's excited for Skyrim? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202414)
Skyrim II: A Dragon A Day Keeps The Draugr At Bay. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222730)
Skyrim III: Get rich selling protective knee gear! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12323418#post12323418)
Skyrim IV: Oblivion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228914)
Skyrim V: Skyrim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?243186-Skyrim-V-Skyrim&p=13225784#post13225784)
Skyrim Thread VI: Dov Riders, AWAY! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=262708)
The Elder Scrolls VII: Do you believe in mod? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298127)
The Elder Scrolls: By the VIII Divines (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?329913-The-Elder-Scrolls-By-the-VIII-Divines)
It's the IX Divines You milk drinker! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?370764-The-Elder-Scrolls-It-s-the-IX-Divines-you-milk-drinkers)
The Elder Scrolls X: Thalmor Or Less (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?416193-The-Elder-Scrolls-X-Thalmor-or-Less)
Wouldn't Want to Be Elsweyer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?492511-The-Elder-Scrolls-XI-Wouldn-t-Want-To-Be-Elsweyr)
Twelve Worlds of Creation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?510977-Elder-Scrolls-XII-Twelve-Worlds-of-Creation)
The Elder Scrolls XIII: Born Under a Certain Sign (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?526026-The-Elder-Scrolls-XIII-Born-Under-a-Certain-Sign)
The Elder Scrolls XIV: Good? Bad? I'm the one with the Thu'um! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?548748-The-Elder-Scrolls-XIV-Good-Bad-I-m-the-one-with-the-Thu-um!)
The Elder Scrolls XV: This is my Thu'um stick! (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?577748-The-Elder-Scrolls-XV-This-is-my-Thu-um-Stick)
The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?611078-The-Elder-Scrolls-XVI-Sworn-to-Carry-Your-Burdens)

Handy things For Skyrim:
Official forums (http://forums.bethsoft.com/index.php?/forum/117-v-skyrim/)
Perk calculator (http://skyrimcalculator.com/)
Some things you need to know about Skyrim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12328428#post12328428)
The Wiki (http://uesp.net/wiki/Main_Page)

Have at it!

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-07-16, 05:11 PM

Carrying on from the last thread...

Whirlwind Sprint is there to allow you to carry 75,000 pounds of crap out of every dungeon.

Absolutely this. Horses are good for this too, pity they die so easily. :smallfrown:

For Elder Scrolls 6 I hope we get a 'summon horse' spell in the vanilla game.

halfeye

2021-07-16, 06:45 PM

For Elder Scrolls 6 I hope we get a 'summon horse' spell in the vanilla game.

That reminds me, is there a bound bow spell? There are bound swords and I think spears, but if the book for bows exists, what's his name in Whiterun doesn't have it.

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-07-16, 07:12 PM

That reminds me, is there a bound bow spell? There are bound swords and I think spears, but if the book for bows exists, what's his name in Whiterun doesn't have it.

*checks* The wiki says there is, but it's Adept level so it might not be showing up if you're low level.

Taevyr

2021-07-16, 07:40 PM

There's an adept-level Bound Bow with Bound arrows included, a novice Bound Sword, and an apprentice Bound Battleaxe spell in the base game, if I remember correctly. One of the expansions (Dawnguard, I think) adds a novice Bound Dagger as well.

Had a conjurer/illusionist that exclusively used bound weaponry, and that bow's probably the best one in the game when you add in the bound weapon perks.

Rynjin

2021-07-16, 07:41 PM

I believe you can only get Bound Bow from a specific bandit camp or something.

Looking into it, no apparently there is a guaranteed drop in Fort Amol (which is where I typically get it), but a few merchants do sell it: Calcelmo (Markarth), Phinis Gestor (Mage's College), and Falion (Morthal).

Arutema

2021-07-16, 08:59 PM

Lurkmoar

2021-07-16, 09:08 PM

You can find a Bound Bow Book in a Fort Amol. It's on the top most level, hidden in a bucket, under a lamp.

Triaxx

2021-07-16, 09:11 PM

I was very surprised to learn the various court mages actually had specialties. And yes I'll agree the mechanics get samey but they're easily nodded. And the same for exploration. I want to give beyond Skyrim Bruma a shot sometime along with Wyrmstooth which is supposed to be amazing.

DigoDragon

2021-07-16, 11:02 PM

One of the mods I'm trying out adds khajiit children to the caravans, and it's adorable watching one of those little ankle-biters chase down a bandit. :smallbiggrin:

Rater202

2021-07-16, 11:34 PM

One of the mods I'm trying out adds khajiit children to the caravans, and it's adorable watching one of those little ankle-biters chase down a bandit. :smallbiggrin:

Aww.

There really should be more children in Skyrim...

At the very least, more variety in the models used for children. I'm pretty sure there's only one boy and one girl model.

Ortho

2021-07-17, 01:05 AM

At the very least, more variety in the models used for children. I'm pretty sure there's only one boy and one girl model.

Aaah, the perks of 8 gigabytes of storage on DVDs.

The Xbox 360 did a lot of great things, but this one did not age well.

Silverraptor

2021-07-17, 02:03 AM

Carrying on from the last thread...

Absolutely this. Horses are good for this too, pity they die so easily. :smallfrown:

For Elder Scrolls 6 I hope we get a 'summon horse' spell in the vanilla game.

Also me at the end of last thread.

Yes there is. Back when I didn't know what dwarven stuff was good for smelting down into dwarven ingots (And back where dwarven bows only cost the dwarven ingots and no iron) I would dive into a lot of dwarven ruins, mainly the southern mountains below riften. Turns out, it doesn't matter how encumbered you are, you can still sprint across the landscape as a werewolf. So I would Whirlwind sprint through the dungeon until I was able to get out from my spelunking. Then I would leave, turn into a werewolf, and sprint across the landscape ignoring everything that came for me. And strangely, in mountain pass that is south of the throat of the world, there was a ranger?/hunter? that had a horse camping out there. Well I killed him early on as a werewolf and he did not respawn, but it was always around that time my werewolf time ran out and I turned back to normal. And wouldn't you know it, but horses also can sprint still despite how encumbered you were. So I ended up stealing his horse and riding the second half back to whiterun. And then when I dismounted at the gates of whiterun, the horse would turn around and walk back to the same place, so it worked out great for me!:smallbiggrin:

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-07-17, 06:07 AM

Aww.

There really should be more children in Skyrim...

At the very least, more variety in the models used for children. I'm pretty sure there's only one boy and one girl model.

Second this. And more detailed ones. They all look like Attack of the Dough-faced Oblivion NPCs as-is.

And while we’re on the subject, more variety for the monster models too. It’s weird that all the bandits have a variety of hair color, hair styles, and facial markings, but all the wolves, trolls, etc. are clones of one another. If you see a wolf with a different color of fur it’s because it’s a different species of wolf.

Fyraltari

2021-07-17, 06:42 AM

I wouldn't mind non-human children too.

Triaxx

2021-07-17, 07:31 AM

100% not what Dragonborn means.

Keltest

2021-07-17, 08:22 AM

I'd like to see some more non-human children just so the cultures are forced to actually accommodate them. cough orcs cough.

Lurkmoar

2021-07-17, 08:57 AM

TES 6 question:

Would you like to see Attributes back, keep it like the Perk system in Skyrim or Hybridize it?

I don't miss Speed from Oblivion for instance when I played a heavy Orc warrior...

LibraryOgre

2021-07-17, 09:23 AM

Absolutely this. Horses are good for this too, pity they die so easily. :smallfrown:

Arvak is the GOAT.

Glimbur

2021-07-17, 09:27 AM

TES 6 question:

Would you like to see Attributes back, keep it like the Perk system in Skyrim or Hybridize it?

I don't miss Speed from Oblivion for instance when I played a heavy Orc warrior...

Not gonna lie, it was annoying trying to maximize my gains to attributes in Morrowind. The Perk system works ok, but it does mean characters are a bit more same-y. Not sure how you thread the needle between the two, I would keep the perks + hp/stamina/magic approach Skyrim has. Good enough.

Keltest

2021-07-17, 09:37 AM

I'd like to see attributes back, but with a better system for increasing them.

Rater202

2021-07-17, 09:38 AM

TES 6 question:

Would you like to see Attributes back, keep it like the Perk system in Skyrim or Hybridize it?

I don't miss Speed from Oblivion for instance when I played a heavy Orc warrior...

Honestly, I woulnd't mind doing something similar to what they did in Fallout 4.

Just... List out the various skills and put a huge list of perks under each one. Every time you level up you can boost a skill or take a perk, you get XP for killing enemies, exploring the world, completing quests, crafting stuff(with Skyrim's level of focus in crafting, not FO4's) and so on.

And the level cap is nonexistent or so high that if you wanted to, you could eventually become a master of everything, but encounters are scaled so that you don't have to.

I'm not sure how Health, Magicka, and Stamina would be handled under this system... Maybe make them "skills" with their own set of perks? Or tie them to the total score of the "warrior," "mage," and "thief" skills respectively.

Vinyadan

2021-07-17, 09:53 AM

I kinda liked the perk system in Skyrim, but I think that certain skills really need to work some other way. Smithing in particular was just grinding. I think that such skills shouldn't be actual 1-100 skills, but instead just perk trees, maybe with a charlevel-dependent unlocking system (you need to have reached a certain level to unlock e.g. steel armour).

I think that it would be good also because you don't need to craft that many weapons and armour parts for yourself. When you get a perk, you improve what you have or create something new and that's it for a few levels, instead of creating hundreds of daggers (which I guess you could still do, for example for trading, but you wouldn't need to).

factotum

2021-07-17, 10:10 AM

The Perk system works ok, but it does mean characters are a bit more same-y.

I wouldn't say that. A character built as a stealth archer will play significantly differently from one built as a two-handed berserker even with the perk system as is. If there's an issue it's that combat in Skyrim really isn't complex enough to make a huge variety of characters--it comes down to archery, magery or swordery (yes, I know that's not a word!). That, plus things like the entire Lockpicking skill tree being largely useless, reduces the variety somewhat.

Rater202

2021-07-17, 10:18 AM

instead of creating hundreds of daggersFor my smithing characters it was rings.

I would join the Companions, then run off and explore in certain areas a couple of quests to get the transmutation spell and unlock a couple of gold, silver, and iron mines on the map.

I'd fast travel, fill my inventory with various ores, transmute them till all I had was gold, then forge gold rings and sell them to every merchant who'd by them from me. If I raised any given involved skill enough to level up, I'd immediately run for Kodlack and spend money on Blackmsith training till either I hit my training limit for that level.

Then wait until the mines respawned and start again.

I also did the quests to join the Orc Strongholds and cleared got the one with the Ebony mine on my map so once I got to Blacksmithing 100 I could easily forge and upgrade a set of Deadric Armor.

Nothng makes you feel as invincible as running around with a maxed-out armor ranking and the best possible unenchanted weapon for your preferred fighting style when the NPC enemies are still using iron.

halfeye

2021-07-17, 10:29 AM

TES 6 question:

Would you like to see Attributes back, keep it like the Perk system in Skyrim or Hybridize it?

I don't miss Speed from Oblivion for instance when I played a heavy Orc warrior...

The thing I most miss from Oblivion is spellcasting. In Skyrim you need a free hand, and there's only one light spell which doesn't last long (there's that cast a ball of light thing, but it lasts about the same time, and you still need a free hand), so you are forever changing weapons to get a free hand, casting light, changing back to the bow (obviously), running out of light, swapping weapons and so on. In Oblivion, you had a cast spell key, it didn't matter whether you had a hand free, and there were five light spells, the first was awful, but the last really lit things up, lasted for a useful length of time and you didn't need to change weapons to cast it again. Changing weapons to heal yourself is also a big drag for me.

Lurkmoar

2021-07-17, 10:30 AM

I'd fast travel, fill my inventory with various ores, transmute them till all I had was gold, then forge gold rings and sell them to every merchant who'd by them from me. If I raised any given involved skill enough to level up, I'd immediately run for Kodlack and spend money on Blackmsith training till either I hit my training limit for that level.

I think you meant Eorlund, Kodlak is the faction leader, not the master blacksmith.

My favorite place to get iron early game is Halted Steam Camp and Embershard Mine. Fairly close to Whiterun, and it's easy to get Breezehome unless you're doing a no-dragon run. Actually, you could... forgot you just need to return the Dragonstone, not clear the tower.

Keltest

2021-07-17, 10:35 AM

Rater202

2021-07-17, 10:38 AM

I think you meant Eorlund, Kodlak is the faction leader, not the master blacksmith.

My favorite place to get iron early game is Halted Steam Camp and Embershard Mine. Fairly close to Whiterun, and it's easy to get Breezehome unless you're doing a no-dragon run. Actually, you could... forgot you just need to return the Dragonstone, not clear the tower.

Yeah, Eorlund,.

It's been a while since I've actually played.

halfeye

2021-07-17, 10:40 AM

Agreed. I could handle it being like Morrowind where you can switch between an active spell set and an active weapon set with a single button pretty handily. But the favorites menu is just too cumbersome i think to have weapons and shouts and spells all on it at once.

Favourites? That reminds me, I hate it when the draguar (Deathlords?) disarm you and when you pick the weapon up again, it's gone from your favourites menu, and you have to set it up again. The spells business is still more annoying though, because it happens more often.

Vinyadan

2021-07-17, 10:50 AM

The thing I most miss from Oblivion is spellcasting. In Skyrim you need a free hand, and there's only one light spell which doesn't last long (there's that cast a ball of light thing, but it lasts about the same time, and you still need a free hand), so you are forever changing weapons to get a free hand, casting light, changing back to the bow (obviously), running out of light, swapping weapons and so on. In Oblivion, you had a cast spell key, it didn't matter whether you had a hand free, and there were five light spells, the first was awful, but the last really lit things up, lasted for a useful length of time and you didn't need to change weapons to cast it again. Changing weapons to heal yourself is also a big drag for me.

A problem with Oblivion spells I have noticed when trying to pick it up again was that you could spend fights just blocking with your shield while you waited for magicka to load, because spells were so effective that swords felt like a waste of time. It isn't a fun way of fighting.

Spells on self, however, could really use such a system. I think they didn't really remove it, as much as moved it to dragon shouts.

I actually modded the Skyrim on-self light spell to last something like 10 minutes. It costs much more magicka to cast, but I did it at high levels, so it's OK. It wasn't really a choice, I generally didn't bother with light sources, but they became necessary after installing a realistic lighting mod, and I really like the results.

Resileaf

2021-07-17, 11:51 AM

I wouldn't say that. A character built as a stealth archer will play significantly differently from one built as a two-handed berserker even with the perk system as is. If there's an issue it's that combat in Skyrim really isn't complex enough to make a huge variety of characters--it comes down to archery, magery or swordery (yes, I know that's not a word!). That, plus things like the entire Lockpicking skill tree being largely useless, reduces the variety somewhat.

Until you start playing all your characters as a stealth archer because it's that effective. :smallbiggrin:

Caelestion

2021-07-17, 02:13 PM

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-07-17, 02:43 PM

TES 6 question:

Would you like to see Attributes back, keep it like the Perk system in Skyrim or Hybridize it?

I don't miss Speed from Oblivion for instance when I played a heavy Orc warrior...

I guess I don’t really have a strong opinion here one way or another, as long as they make it fairly intuitive and hard to screw oneself over by accident. (Screwing oneself over on purpose is fine. :smalltongue:)

Something I’d like to see is the armor categories from ESO - so Light, Medium and Heavy instead of just Light and Heavy, and Light ‘armor’ is clothes, robes, or the equivalent. My inner min-maxer screams loudly when my character runs around Skyrim in robes, because I don’t get any XP for that. :smalltongue: Also if I find some really cool clothes, I can’t improve them like I can armor. Or make them myself.

Can’t decide if dyes would be worth having in the single player or not. :smallconfused: If ESO taught me anything it’s that dyes are inclined to be buggy and inconsistent, and probably won’t add enough to the game to balance that out.

Favourites? That reminds me, I hate it when the draguar (Deathlords?) disarm you and when you pick the weapon up again, it's gone from your favourites menu, and you have to set it up again.

I forgot this happened. :smallyuk: Yes, this is terrible and I hope it goes away forever in Elder Scrolls 6.

Rynjin

2021-07-17, 05:30 PM

Bring back stats, conglomerate them down so they're a bit more streamlined.

You could easily make the stats Strength, Endurance, Agility, and Magic without losing much. Str affects melee damage, Agi affects ranged damage, Endurance HP and Stamina, and Magic is the "master magic" stat with MP, MP recharge, and spell damage.

No more "your statups are based on what skills you leveled to hit this level", just give some raw stat boosts every level; maybe a pool of 5 points you can allocate however, or the ability to raise a score by 3, a score by 2, and a score by 1.

Keep perks, make them more interesting. You don't need 5 perks that make your spells cheaper. You don't need any dedicated perks that make your spells and weapons stronger, now that stats are back. Focus on new capabilities.

For the love of all I hold dear, please don't make it like Fallout 4, which has one of the worst leveling systems I've ever seen.

veti

2021-07-17, 05:32 PM

Second this. And more detailed ones. They all look like Attack of the Dough-faced Oblivion NPCs as-is.

And while we’re on the subject, more variety for the monster models too. It’s weird that all the bandits have a variety of hair color, hair styles, and facial markings

There are a variety of children mods, but one thing they don't do is vary their ages. It's odd that all children in Skyrim are exactly the same age.

I've also got a mod to vary the bandits (purely cosmetically) a bit, after noticing how many of them shared the same face, with just variations in complexion and hair.

The thing I most miss from Oblivion is spellcasting.

Yep, spellcasting is the one area where I'll concede Skyrim was actually worse than Oblivion. I've tried any number of mods to fix it, but none seems very satisfactory. Anyone know of a mod for spellcasting while wielding a two handed weapon that actually works?

Something I’d like to see is the armor categories from ESO - so Light, Medium and Heavy instead of just Light and Heavy, and Light ‘armor’ is clothes, robes, or the equivalent. My inner min-maxer screams loudly when my character runs around Skyrim in robes, because I don’t get any XP for that.

Also known as "the armour categories from Morrowind, including unarmoured".

The trend from ESIII to ESV was relentless simplification, each one dropping a bunch of useful (or at least colourful) skills and spell effects and weapons and categories... But it's been such a long gap, now, that it's just possible (I think) that trend won't necessarily continue into ESVI.

For the love of all I hold dear, please don't make it like Fallout 4, which has one of the worst leveling systems I've ever seen.

Second this. FO4 has the distinction of being the only Bethesda game I've proactively deleted from my system.

Triaxx

2021-07-17, 05:39 PM

The only thing I know of that does that is Apocalypse letting you convert a single spell into a power. But only one spell at a time. And not all spells work correctly as powers.

LibraryOgre

2021-07-17, 05:49 PM

The trend from ESIII to ESV was relentless simplification, each one dropping a bunch of useful (or at least colourful) skills and spell effects and weapons and categories... But it's been such a long gap, now, that it's just possible (I think) that trend won't necessarily continue into ESVI.

From Daggerfall on, really. In addition to the language skills that got left in Daggerfall, Morrowind lost Backstabbing, Climbing, Critical Strike, Etiquette (mixed with Streetwise into Speechcraft), Jumping (mixed with Running and Swimming into Athletics), Medical, and Thaumaturgy... so down 11 skills, 20 if you count languages.

Oblivion lost Medium Armor, Spear, Axe, Enchant, and Unarmored. Long Blade and Short blade combined. Six skills down.

Skyrim lost Athletics, Acrobatics, Mercantile (combined with Speechcraft to make Speech), and Mysticism, but regained Enchanting. Net three skills down (not counting the change from Blade and Blunt to One-Handed and Two-Handed; net wash).

Of all of them? I miss Climbing. Run around Daggerfall for a while. You can CLIMB almost EVERYWHERE. I don't know if it's a Daggerfall Unity thing or not, but I got to where I could jump off something and grab onto a wall and start climbing. It was AMAZING.

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-07-17, 06:03 PM

There are a variety of children mods, but one thing they don't do is vary their ages. It's odd that all children in Skyrim are exactly the same age.

Ooo, good point. There aren't any infants or (visibly) pregnant ladies.

Also known as "the armour categories from Morrowind, including unarmoured".

That reminds me: I'd like to see Hand-to-hand return. I want to be able to leave all my gear at the door, and still be able to rip my way out of whatever lousy situation I ended up in if I build my character right.

Also throwing items. We haven't had throwing stars since Morrowind. :smallfrown:

Of all of them? I miss Climbing. Run around Daggerfall for a while. You can CLIMB almost EVERYWHERE. I don't know if it's a Daggerfall Unity thing or not, but I got to where I could jump off something and grab onto a wall and start climbing. It was AMAZING.

I haven't played Daggerfall, but I would like to see Climbing too. It opens up lots of possibilities for getting into and out of places, and seems like a very thiefy skill to have.

Misery Esquire

2021-07-17, 06:25 PM

Jumping (mixed with Running and Swimming into Athletics)
...
Of all of them? I miss Climbing. Run around Daggerfall for a while. You can CLIMB almost EVERYWHERE. I don't know if it's a Daggerfall Unity thing or not, but I got to where I could jump off something and grab onto a wall and start climbing. It was AMAZING.

Well, sort of. Acrobatics determines jump height, Athletics influences movement speed and therefore impacts jump speed.

...
Climbing everywhere would be neat, but in terms of (unlikely) old features returning the one I'd like is open box cities.

No more loading doors to enter cities, please. And once you do so it returns the option for Levitation (and climbing) because people won't get/see into low res unloaded areas just by moving up and down.

Vinyadan

2021-07-17, 06:33 PM

Casting while wielding weapons:

https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/100934?tab=description

https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/25241?tab=description

Rynjin

2021-07-17, 07:53 PM

SE also has The Wizard Warrior (https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/14890) which is a significantly more advanced version of those older mods. It can take a bit of getting used to to make it work, because it's kind of complex, but it offers a ton of options.

veti

2021-07-17, 08:22 PM

Casting while wielding weapons:

https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/100934?tab=description

https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/25241?tab=description

Warrior Magic is an example of a mod that tries to do the right thing, but doesn't actually work that well. I've been trying it for the past couple of weeks - it's hit and miss whether a spell gets cast at all, and when it does, there's sometimes a significant delay before it takes effect. Particularly if cast during combat, which oddly enough is when the delay tends to matter most...

SE also has The Wizard Warrior (https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrimspecialedition/mods/14890) which is a significantly more advanced version of those older mods.

Warrior Magic is pretty new - first uploaded Jan 2020, updated June 2021. I looked at The Wizard Warrior page and I couldn't really understand what it was trying to tell me, but maybe I should give the mod a try. Thanks.

Aeson

2021-07-18, 01:02 PM

Personally, I would prefer for attributes and derived attributes to return, but for the attribute growth system I would rather have a system similar to the one in Dungeon Siege, where attributes essentially gain experience and level up based on what skills you use, or perhaps even a system where your attributes are set at character creation and don't change except as a result of magic or disease.

Also, speaking of derived attributes, it slightly bothers me that health is the only one where history matters. Fatigue and magicka only care about your current attribute scores, but health is determined by what your initial Strength and Endurance scores were as well as what your Endurance scores have been at every level since the first.

veti

2021-07-18, 03:27 PM

The_Jackal

2021-07-18, 03:58 PM

I'd be quite happy to lose "attributes" entirely, including health, stamina and magicka. Replace them with a status system where you can be "fresh", "ready", "winded", "tired", "exhausted" etc., which determines what you can do, how well and for how long.

I guess what I'm saying is, I really don't miss the number-crunching and min-maxing of the older games and I don't want to see it back.

Well, I think the issue with Skyrim's stats is that too many of them are completely worthless. Stamina? Trash, since you just needed 1 stamina to start a power attack, and a Vegetable soup would get you functionally infinite stamina for 12 minutes. Magicka? Worthless, because any remotely min-maxed build would use cost reduction to reduce spell costs to near zero. In effect, the only actually relevant stat was health.

So, to my mind, the issue isn't that stats are bad, but specifically the stats created for Skyrim had no real utility to anyone who spent even a small amount of time researching the game mechanics. I like the idea of stats as a means for customizing your character, but Bethesda's complete lack of balance in their design makes those choices meaningless.

Laughing Dog

2021-07-18, 11:27 PM

Magicka? Worthless, because any enchanter will reduce costs to zero. Fixed that for you:smalltongue:

Rynjin

2021-07-19, 05:00 AM

Personally, I would prefer for attributes and derived attributes to return, but for the attribute growth system I would rather have a system similar to the one in Dungeon Siege, where attributes essentially gain experience and level up based on what skills you use,

There's a really good Oblivion mod that does this. This is a pretty fine middle ground too, I just like the idea of having a bit of choice, since there are some corner cases where taking a "detour" to level some less combat worthy skills can render the game more difficult than it needs to be due to level scaling.

Then again, they should probably tweak level scaling again so it's more satisfying anyway; Skyrim was a big step up from Oblivion, but it could still use improvement so it doesn't have this curve where the early game and endgame are trivial, but the midgame can be brutally hard in spots as enemy HP suddenly inflates to the point you do minimal damage at around level 30.

factotum

2021-07-19, 06:43 AM

They really need to make it so only combat-related skills contribute toward your level when determining the level of the enemies. Enemies shouldn't get tougher because I just learned how to craft a ring or pick a lock more efficiently.

DigoDragon

2021-07-19, 06:55 AM

The Customised Favourites Menu mod was a godsend for that.

Dear nine gods yes. It's a must-have mod for me along with SkyUI. It's those little quality of life things that really make my day.

No more loading doors to enter cities, please.

I can understand why they do that, but if they are going to put a city in its own world space, I'd like to see more effort into making the city huge and populated. I wanna be able to get lost the first time I explore it. :3

Keltest

2021-07-19, 07:05 AM

Dear nine gods yes. It's a must-have mod for me along with SkyUI. It's those little quality of life things that really make my day.

I can understand why they do that, but if they are going to put a city in its own world space, I'd like to see more effort into making the city huge and populated. I wanna be able to get lost the first time I explore it. :3

Agreed. Im pretty sure some of the fort battles have more population than Whiterun or Solitude, so its not like youre gaining too much.

Eldan

2021-07-19, 09:05 AM

Novigrad in Witcher 3 is open-ish to the world map and has hundreds of People.

https://i.redd.it/gbkcuydk8vy41.jpg
https://game-debate.com/images/articles/2808/The-Witcher-III.jpg

If a relatively small Studio managed that 6 years ago, surely Bethesda can do a bit better on their cities.

Keltest

2021-07-19, 09:07 AM

Novigrad is open-ish to the world map and has hundreds of People.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/witcher/images/6/66/TW3_screen-Novigrad.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000?cb=20160822065306
https://game-debate.com/images/articles/2808/The-Witcher-III.jpg

If a relatively small Studio managed that 6 years ago, surely Bethesda can do a bit better on their cities.

From my understanding, the problem is that each entity in Skyrim is considerably more complex than in the Witcher, each having their own dialogue, life story, skills, equipment, etc...

Which is not to say they couldnt do it, but its not quite as simple as "the technology is there, just do it Bethesda."

Having said that, i would be fine with filling the cities full of empty nameless NPCs who never stop and chat with us. Not every dockworker needs a deep personality.

Eldan

2021-07-19, 09:09 AM

I mean, theoretically, yes, they are more complex, but in effect, how many randos on the street in Solitude actually had something to say?

Keltest

2021-07-19, 09:19 AM

I mean, theoretically, yes, they are more complex, but in effect, how many randos on the street in Solitude actually had something to say?

Almost never, and im personally not attached to the gimmick at all, but thats what they decided they wanted to do.

Rater202

2021-07-19, 09:21 AM

I will admit, now that I'm thinking about it, that the main cities in Oblivion felt more... Like cities.

I remember getting lost in Skingrad. More than once

Keltest

2021-07-19, 09:34 AM

I will admit, now that I'm thinking about it, that the main cities in Oblivion felt more... Like cities.

I remember getting lost in Skingrad. More than once

Thats because Skingrad has probably the most obtuse layout i have ever seen in a city, with those bridges and that trench nonsense.

Rater202

2021-07-19, 09:40 AM

Thats because Skingrad has probably the most obtuse layout i have ever seen in a city, with those bridges and that trench nonsense.

Yeah, that's fair, but in general... The Cities felt like cities. Or at least small towns.

the cities in Skyrim... Don't.

Eldan

2021-07-19, 09:52 AM

I guess they also Need to downscale because every house has interiors.

But yeah, it's the Bethesda Problem. Wide as an ocean, shallow as a puddle.

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-07-19, 09:59 AM

But yeah, it's the Bethesda Problem. Wide as an ocean, shallow as a puddle.

And buggy as a swamp.

Anteros

2021-07-19, 10:16 AM

Well, sort of. Acrobatics determines jump height, Athletics influences movement speed and therefore impacts jump speed.

...
Climbing everywhere would be neat, but in terms of (unlikely) old features returning the one I'd like is open box cities.

No more loading doors to enter cities, please. And once you do so it returns the option for Levitation (and climbing) because people won't get/see into low res unloaded areas just by moving up and down.

Or just hand wave it away. A magical fog has begun to form around population centers and you've been tasked to find out why. Clumsy, but it solves the problem. A good writer could easily flesh it out.

Can’t decide if dyes would be worth having in the single player or not. :smallconfused: If ESO taught me anything it’s that dyes are inclined to be buggy and inconsistent, and probably won’t add enough to the game to balance that out.

Absolutely. Anything I do with dyes or other cosmetic items is always for my own satisfaction anyway. I couldn't care less what some random person thinks.

Vinyadan

2021-07-19, 11:38 AM

I think Skyrim cities may have taken a hit because of the lack of guild chapters. If I think of Morrowind, the cities were generally made up of distinct zones:

Faction areas, with the three imperial guilds, the local Great House, the Camonna Tong, and the Temple
Service areas, with shops
A residential area with the homes and manors, more or less surrounding the other two areas.
An often separate Imperial stronghold with services, beds, and chapters of the Legion and the Imperial Temple.

That's a lot of buildings, generally placed in different clusters. Oblivion had fewer factions, but in general its cities felt larger and very alive (and overall more believable, although the setting lacked the crazy genius of Morrowind). They still had local Guild chapters, although they were less important. This is probably why rebuilding Kvatch was such a common wish. Oblivion also had cathedrals, which were massive and showy. You actually rescued Martin from one, and part of his story was grappling with his relationship with the gods. In general, both Morrowind and Oblivion were better at mixing lore, story, and settlements.
In Skyrim, each city generally gets no more than one faction house, and may actually get none, if it's unlucky. Even a place of worship isn't a certainty. The Dark Brotherhood moved to the middle of nowhere. And, of course, Skyrim doesn't have Vivec or the Imperial City. Beside the size, to me it feels like the cities are generally just there. "Yes, this city sunk. So what?"

Keltest

2021-07-19, 11:46 AM

Yeah. Morthal, Falkreath and Winterhold... what is even the point of them? They serve as fast travel points to their areas of Skyrim, but thats about all theyre actually good for IMO.

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-07-19, 11:57 AM

In Skyrim, each city generally gets no more than one faction house, and may actually get none, if it's unlucky. Even a place of worship isn't a certainty. The Dark Brotherhood moved to the middle of nowhere. And, of course, Skyrim doesn't have Vivec or the Imperial City. Beside the size, to me it feels like the cities are generally just there. "Yes, this city sunk. So what?"

This is a good point. Even just adding a barracks and a couple more in-city shrines could have helped. And there is no reason that the Companions couldn’t have an outpost or two outside Jorrvaskr. Add hidey-holes for the Thieves’ Guild to a couple cities that open up as you progress that questline.

DigoDragon

2021-07-19, 11:59 AM

And buggy as a swamp.

Ha! XD
You win comment of the day.

Yeah. Morthal, Falkreath and Winterhold... what is even the point of them? They serve as fast travel points to their areas of Skyrim, but thats about all theyre actually good for IMO.

The college at Winterhold is probably the only reason I even pass through Winterhold. The other two? Well I guess Falkreath has two quest starts if you're collecting daedric artifacts.

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-07-19, 12:22 PM

Ha! XD
You win comment of the day.

Thanks! :smallsmile:

The college at Winterhold is probably the only reason I even pass through Winterhold. The other two? Well I guess Falkreath has two quest starts if you're collecting daedric artifacts.

I do like Morthal for the crazy seer lady running it. But it’s very true there isn’t much to actually do there.

Fyraltari

2021-07-19, 12:55 PM

Yeah. Morthal, Falkreath and Winterhold... what is even the point of them? They serve as fast travel points to their areas of Skyrim, but thats about all theyre actually good for IMO.

Dawnstar is so forgettable, it didn't even make it to your list. :smallamused:

Since we're talking about this kind of stuff, digging around in r/teslore, I had found a post about an idea that was scrapped for the Nordic Pantheon, with a distinction between dead gods, evil gods, hearth gods and even future gods. That last one was just Talos who would have been understood as the future Shor of the next kalpa that the Nords pray to more or less just in case and who they'd have thought was the one who showed up at the end of Oblivion rather than Alduin/Akatosh.

I really would have liked this to make it to the final cut, we could have had on the Imperial side the Cult of the Eight Divines with secret Talos worshippers and on the Stormcloak side Ulfric heading a revivalist movement trying to reinstall the old Nordic Pantheon to rid Skyrim of Imperial influence which would be opposed by devouts followers of the Nine who don't want to stop praying to Akatosh and Arkay and don't really care about that "Shor" fellow. Would have fleshed out the divide a bit.

factotum

2021-07-19, 01:17 PM

And, of course, Skyrim doesn't have Vivec or the Imperial City. Beside the size, to me it feels like the cities are generally just there. "Yes, this city sunk. So what?"

You really feel like Solitude and Windhelm should be bigger than they are given their importance. Part of the problem there is that both cities have their docks area separate from the main city, partly because the dock area is "open to te world" so can't be mixed in with the main city, so I'd blame that on a limitation of the game engine. In Morrowind all the cities were open, but that meant they either had to be hella small or else occupy a massive chunk of the map (Vivec City, looking at you here), neither of which was ideal.

I guess what annoys me a bit is that Skyrim has all the disadvantages of isolating the city interiors from the world at large without the benefits of the larger city interiors.

Caelestion

2021-07-19, 03:54 PM

Falkreath is the drop-off point for living at Lakeview Manor. A clear positive in my book. :)

veti

2021-07-20, 02:14 AM

Falkreath is the drop-off point for living at Lakeview Manor. A clear positive in my book. :)

I just get the carriage driver to drop me off at Lakeview Manor...

I get the feeling that Falkreath and the Pale both exist chiefly for the purpose of giving modders suitably big empty spaces to play with. They're certainly both popular venues for mods.

Lurkmoar

2021-07-20, 09:27 AM

Since Daggerfall, it's been fairly common to receive Daedric Quests in TES. Occasionally, a Prince will have a significant part of the games even. Azura in Morrowind, Hircine in the Bloodmoon DLC. Then Mehrunes Dagon in Oblivion and Sheggorath in the Shivering Islands. Hermaeus Mora was tangentially involved in the main quest of Skyrim, Discerning the Transmundane(you have to talk to Septimus to get the cube to let you into Blackreach, right?) and a spotlight in Dragonborn.

Any Prince you'd like to see more details/shenanigans/horrors from?

*alright, now I'm kinda bugged and want to see if it's possible to go through the main quest and not trigger Discerning the Transmundane. Would phasing through a Dwemer gate with a plate + Whirlwind Shout to go to Blackreach and grabbing the Elder Scroll(Dragon) avoid having it pop up?

Keltest

2021-07-20, 09:29 AM

Eldan

2021-07-20, 10:22 AM

Keltest

2021-07-20, 10:40 AM

I kinda want to see someone do something interesting with Peryite.

The dwarves didnt disappear, he just took them all as part of a power play so people will stop ignoring him.

Thomas Cardew

2021-07-20, 10:42 AM

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-07-20, 10:49 AM

Any Prince you'd like to see more details/shenanigans/horrors from?

Vaermina, Malacath or Meridia. Nightmares have a lot of potential as far as weird monsters and locals. I’d like them to cover the Trinimac-to-Malacath history better than they have. And Meri already got a bit of focus in vanilla ESO, but we didn’t really get to explore her realm.

I kinda want to see someone do something interesting with Peryite.

Ooo, he’s a good one too. There is a lot they could do with plagues and disease. I want to know what he did to irritate the other Princes too.

Fyraltari

2021-07-20, 10:56 AM

Any Prince you'd like to see more details/shenanigans/horrors from?
Jyggalag*, Peryite, Namira, Malacath.

Ooo, he’s a good one too. There is a lot they could do with plagues and disease. I want to know what he did to irritate the other Princes too.
I think it's just that he's the weakest of the bunch. But yeah, he's severely underused.

I'd like to see some more of the Aedra too.

*Not necessarily a focus, but at least a quest with assorted artifact.

Eldan

2021-07-20, 11:00 AM

Grim Portent

2021-07-20, 11:06 AM

Fyraltari

2021-07-20, 11:25 AM

Oh, also just in general, weird cultural aspects of the Princes, like the entire Khajiit Religion, or the norse Woodland Man.

Edit: while going through UESP, I just noticed that Azura has probably the worst title of any Daedric prince, "Rim of all Holes". Which… yeah.
And in Daggerfall she was said to be an ally of Molag "the king of rape" Bal.

I'll throw in another vote for Peryite, part of it is that he has a vaguely dragony appearance
Not vaguely. His appearance is noted in-universe as being that of a quadrupedal dragon and is some sort of "cosmic joke" on Akatosh. As far as I'm concerned it's another data point for "the gods are aware they are in a video game universe".

and I like dragons, but also his domain of pestilence and order intrigues me. I'd like to see some stuff involving his machinations on a grander scale.
He's probably responsible for the Thrassian Plague and/or the Knathian Flu both of which killed a lot of people.

Triaxx

2021-07-20, 12:19 PM

I thought Discerning was only the second part of the quest? So if you never went back to what his face you neved got bothered about it?

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-07-20, 03:14 PM

I think it's just that he's the weakest of the bunch. But yeah, he's severely underused.

Per one of the Answers-Your-Questions articles, he did something. (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lord_Fa-Nuit-Hen_and_Tutor_Riparius_Answer_Your_Questions_2)

"Y ou [sic] mortals—so good at acquiring knowledge, and so quick to learn the wrong lessons from it! Allow me to misinterpret: particles of chaotic creatia, when flowing in reaction to the exertion of will, become daedrons that, though injurious to the mortal form, can nonetheless perform work. Underutilized daedrons usually return to quiescence—but if imbued with sufficient purpose, they may escape and coalesce to form potentia vortices. These are dangerous if allowed to self-optimize into realm-rips, so it's best to damp them out early. Trying to keep ahead of it all keeps Peryite mighty busy, but nobody's really sorry for him—after all, he earned it."

If they do something with it, it could be fun.

veti

2021-07-20, 04:08 PM

*alright, now I'm kinda bugged and want to see if it's possible to go through the main quest and not trigger Discerning the Transmundane. Would phasing through a Dwemer gate with a plate + Whirlwind Shout to go to Blackreach and grabbing the Elder Scroll(Dragon) avoid having it pop up?

It may be possible to glitch yourself into Blackreach, but it's not designed to be. So yeah, by design at least you do have to start the quest.

But you don't have to talk to Hermaeus Mora, or even be aware of his involvement. If you just never go back to Septimus, you'll never encounter him.

And in Daggerfall she was said to be an ally of Molag "the king of rape" Bal.

"Ally" doesn't mean much, even if that was true. Powers form and break "alliances" all the time, all it means is "we both hate/fear that guy even more than we detest each other".

Didn't all the princes ally against Jyggalag at one point?

Morty

2021-07-21, 06:40 AM

Eldan

2021-07-21, 07:06 AM

Morty

2021-07-21, 07:28 AM

Maybe not a climbing skill, but I'd really want them to just make characters more mobile in General. I mean, how long have we had vaulting over fences now, 20 years? More? Some climbing would be nice too. At least the ability to pull yourself up on a ledge.

That's what I meant, yes. More mobility would be good, but I can't see how a skill responsible for it would fit into the TES system.

Vinyadan

2021-07-21, 08:12 PM

I think that people at Bethesda do wonder how to improve that sort of mobility without turning into an Ubisoft game.

I think it also has something to do with TES PC roots, compared to console games with a mascot character in third-person view and "lean against wall", "climb" and "vault" commands.

The_Jackal

2021-07-22, 06:15 PM

I'm very sceptical towards the idea of bringing back attributes. They would need a new, clear purpose to be a good addition. Before Skyrim got rid of them, they were mostly there to make character creation and advancement even more of a counter-intuitive minefield.

The same goes for removed skills. While the series has undoubtedly been simplified over time, many of the removed skills were treated this way for a good reason. Athletics and Acrobatics never served a useful purpose. Daggerfall's Climbing skill relied on the majority of obstacles in the game being vertical and placed in dungeons. More vertical mobility is a reasonable thing to ask for, but the climbing skill isn't.

I agree insofar as long as your choices are both meaningful and balanced. A meaningful choice has consequences, while a unbalanced choice, while meaningful, isn't really a choice, when you think about it, at least, no more of a choice than "Your money or your life".

Do I think they need to use Dungeons and Dragons-style attributes with numbers a tables and formulae? Not necessarily, but here's the thing: No matter what they do, the game mechanics will be implemented as math, because that's how computers work. So I don't think there's any particular merit in obfuscating the math, but I also don't think it's virtuous just to deprive players of choices and agency with regards to the type of character they want to make.

The big flaw with Skryim is that they didn't even pay *lip-service* to play balance. Thirty minutes and a spreadsheet would have shown them just how broken their system actually was.

Triaxx

2021-07-23, 06:35 AM

For one thing, I'd be very interested in seeing that spreadsheet.

For another, I have learned that balance is at best a moving target, and at worst something that ends up not mattering because no matter how hard you try to balance things, the sheer manpower of players means they'll still find that one combination that's totally busted. Would you, as a dev, have thought... hey, what happens if you boost enchanting via a potion, and then use that to enchant a stronger piece of gear to make your alchemy better to increase your enchanting?

Morty

2021-07-23, 06:53 AM

I agree insofar as long as your choices are both meaningful and balanced. A meaningful choice has consequences, while a unbalanced choice, while meaningful, isn't really a choice, when you think about it, at least, no more of a choice than "Your money or your life".

Do I think they need to use Dungeons and Dragons-style attributes with numbers a tables and formulae? Not necessarily, but here's the thing: No matter what they do, the game mechanics will be implemented as math, because that's how computers work. So I don't think there's any particular merit in obfuscating the math, but I also don't think it's virtuous just to deprive players of choices and agency with regards to the type of character they want to make.

The big flaw with Skryim is that they didn't even pay *lip-service* to play balance. Thirty minutes and a spreadsheet would have shown them just how broken their system actually was.

I'm not going to spend a lot of time defending Skyrim's mechanics, but I don't see how pre-Morrowind attributes provided choice and agency. They were mostly a function of which skills you used, frequently in counter-intuitive ways. If I'm raising my speed because I happen to be using spears, I don't see that as much of a choice.

halfeye

2021-07-23, 09:06 AM

Keltest

2021-07-23, 09:19 AM

It is strange that Morrowind used a similar levelling scheme to Oblivion, but when Oblivion's skills were truncated, it somehow ended up making the levelling different enough that you needed to play the leveling system to avoid getting negligible power-ups when you levelled.

The problem wasnt the change to the skill system, it was the change made to the scaling system. With a few exceptions, all the threats in Morrowind were fairly static, as was a lot of the high end loot. If a dungeon was too dangerous for you, you could go out, get a couple levels and better gear, and come back to mostly the same level of challenge. In Oblivion, if you do that, then unless you min-max yourself super hard, then when you come back the dungeon will actually be even harder than before because now the mobs are scaled to a higher level, and you didnt keep pace.

factotum

2021-07-23, 11:56 AM

The problem wasnt the change to the skill system, it was the change made to the scaling system. With a few exceptions, all the threats in Morrowind were fairly static, as was a lot of the high end loot.

They weren't *entirely* static in Morrowind. What the game did (as you could see by playing with the editing tools provided) was to assign a *range* of levels to a dungeon and the game would scale within those bounds. So, if you designed a dungeon to be level 10-30, someone going in at level 2 would get stomped on, while going in at level 40 would likely be a cakewalk. Within the levels specified it would try to scale the challenge to your level. What Oblivion did, AFAIK, is to remove the range so that everything was always levelled to you.

Vianceit

2021-07-24, 05:16 AM

What do you all think of the rumors about the new elder Scrolls game? What all do you think they might change about it?

Fyraltari

2021-07-24, 06:57 AM

What do you all think of the rumors about the new elder Scrolls game? What all do you think they might change about it?

If they don't have a Breton NPC named Dupont manically keeping a journal, we riot.

Vinyadan

2021-07-24, 08:58 AM

Are there any new rumors? The only thing similar to TESVI I have heard of is the Avowed announcement, a Skyrim-like by Obsidian.

https://youtu.be/W3QkO8fy3tg

mythmonster2

2021-07-24, 09:25 AM

I don't expect we'll hear anything until after Starfield's out.

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-07-24, 06:38 PM

I don't expect we'll hear anything until after Starfield's out.

Yeah I haven't heard anything new either, unless you count the rumors that there is some doubt that it will be available on all consoles. It's still a few years out, and Hammerfell and/or High Rock is still the favorite as far as what region we'll be going to last I heard.

Lord Raziere

2021-07-24, 08:31 PM

Are there any new rumors? The only thing similar to TESVI I have heard of is the Avowed announcement, a Skyrim-like by Obsidian.
*snip*

considering Obsidian's track record with making games I like (Kotor 2, New Vegas, Outer Worlds) I think I'm looking forward more to Avowed than ES6.

Aeson

2021-07-24, 09:15 PM

They weren't *entirely* static in Morrowind. What the game did (as you could see by playing with the editing tools provided) was to assign a *range* of levels to a dungeon and the game would scale within those bounds. So, if you designed a dungeon to be level 10-30, someone going in at level 2 would get stomped on, while going in at level 40 would likely be a cakewalk. Within the levels specified it would try to scale the challenge to your level. What Oblivion did, AFAIK, is to remove the range so that everything was always levelled to you.
I think you're missing the point. Yes, more dangerous creatures could be spawned in most areas of Morrowind at higher levels, but, firstly, the enemies themselves almost all had static statistics,* and, secondly, depending on where exactly you went you could run into some pretty nasty stuff at low level.** Fjol the Outlaw is an eighth-level NPC Barbarian with 106 health, a Nordic battle-axe, and fur armor whether you encounter him at level 1, level 8, or level 64; similarly for almost every other enemy or enemy type you can encounter in Morrowind. By contrast, pretty much every enemy NPC in Oblivion is level-scaled, and while many of the monster enemies are not, the level-scaled monster types become increasingly prevalent at high level - which, ironically, is when you're losing your ability to scale your damage fast enough to keep up with the HP scaling on many of those monsters.

*The only exception that comes to mind immediately is Gedna Relvel in Tribunal.

**Oblivion admittedly did a little of this as well, but even where it does it there is usually some level scaling going on, for instance with the atronach guarding Frostfire Glade.

Rynjin

2021-07-24, 09:51 PM

considering Obsidian's track record with making games I like (Kotor 2, New Vegas, Outer Worlds) I think I'm looking forward more to Avowed than ES6.

I was lukewarm on Outer Worlds but hope they learn from the mistakes made by that game so that Avowed is GREAT rather than "okay". I never actually even finished Outer Worlds, though think about going back sometimes.

Maybe I'll reinstall it now.

veti

2021-07-25, 03:23 AM

Fjol the Outlaw is an eighth-level NPC Barbarian with 106 health, a Nordic battle-axe, and fur armor whether you encounter him at level 1, level 8, or level 64; similarly for almost every other enemy or enemy type you can encounter in Morrowind.

And, pretty much every NPC in Morrowind is individually named and placed. I think there may be a couple of places where you can meet an anonymous "Bandit" or equivalent, but they're extremely rare. Every cave and tower has individually named (and statically levelled) occupants.

(At least as far as NPCs are concerned. Monsters are another matter.)

Resileaf

2021-07-25, 01:04 PM

And, pretty much every NPC in Morrowind is individually named and placed. I think there may be a couple of places where you can meet an anonymous "Bandit" or equivalent, but they're extremely rare. Every cave and tower has individually named (and statically levelled) occupants.

(At least as far as NPCs are concerned. Monsters are another matter.)

The level scaling in Morrowind is most noticeable in areas where undead are common. There is a higher variety of undead in Morrowind than other types of monsters, so you'll often see upgraded versions of weak ones when you're high level.

It's harder to notice when exploring in the wilderness, since the upgraded animals are usually the same animal, but diseased or blighted.

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-08-02, 11:29 AM

I’m kind of hoping we get to see more variety in Daedra in the next game. Both in the ‘multiple realms of Oblivion featured’ sense and the body styles - not just the usual Fire-Frost-Storm Atronach + Dremora but more exotic things like Hungers, Symphonies of Blades, Harvesters, Daedroth etc. Stuff that’s a little more exciting than a humanoid with horns and maybe a weird color.

Fyraltari

2021-08-02, 03:57 PM

veti

2021-08-03, 03:34 AM

I’m kind of hoping we get to see more variety in Daedra in the next game. Both in the ‘multiple realms of Oblivion featured’ sense and the body styles.

Would be nice, yes, but each body shape represents quite a bit of work for artists and animators. I suspect it's the sort of priority that gets mentioned and maybe planned in the early stages, then cut as the scope becomes clearer and everyone realises how overworked they're going to be anyway.

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-08-04, 05:50 AM

Would be nice, yes, but each body shape represents quite a bit of work for artists and animators. I suspect it's the sort of priority that gets mentioned and maybe planned in the early stages, then cut as the scope becomes clearer and everyone realises how overworked they're going to be anyway.

While I don’t disagree, I will note I consider that Bethesda’s problem and not something I should cut my wishlist short over. Zenimax pulled the ‘but we added one entire new animation!’ card as an excuse to charge ludicrous amounts for their reskinned Crown Store stuff too often for me to have much sympathy for them.

The_Jackal

2021-08-04, 12:37 PM

Would be nice, yes, but each body shape represents quite a bit of work for artists and animators. I suspect it's the sort of priority that gets mentioned and maybe planned in the early stages, then cut as the scope becomes clearer and everyone realises how overworked they're going to be anyway.

That doesn't mean they shouldn't do it. It's a better solution than making a single scalable mesh for each gender. Especially for a fantasy game, so that Nords and Orcs actually look like they're different species, and Khajiit and Argonians don't look quite so... Egyptian, if you know what I mean.

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-08-18, 07:50 AM

I’m wondering if we’re going to get more variety of mounts in the next game. ESO went overboard, but adding something region-appropriate in addition to horses wouldn’t go amiss.

Eldan

2021-08-18, 09:51 AM

What would that be? Camels?

factotum

2021-08-18, 10:06 AM

What would that be? Camels?

In the Alik'r Desert doesn't seem unreasonable?

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-08-18, 10:17 AM

What would that be? Camels?

Camels for Hammerfell, Guar if we end up in Morrowind or Black Marsh, Slarjei or hire a seche-raht in Elsweyr (I guess the senche-raht would be more of a hireling)…

Fyraltari

2021-08-18, 03:45 PM

If you can get a mount for your followers as well, I'll be happy.

Eldan

2021-08-19, 02:32 AM

In the Alik'r Desert doesn't seem unreasonable?

Sure. Just wondering if they would be, well, interesting. I'd be wondering how different you can make horses and camels really. I can't imagine size making too much of a difference and endurance and water consumption are very unlikely to be a factor.

Eldan

2021-08-19, 02:34 AM

Camels for Hammerfell, Guar if we end up in Morrowind or Black Marsh, Slarjei or hire a seche-raht in Elsweyr (I guess the senche-raht would be more of a hireling)…

It's been all but confirmed for a few years now that it's going to be Hammerfell. Bethesda even reserved the name "Redfell" or "Redfall".

veti

2021-08-19, 03:39 AM

Sure. Just wondering if they would be, well, interesting. I'd be wondering how different you can make horses and camels really. I can't imagine size making too much of a difference and endurance and water consumption are very unlikely to be a factor.
Well, if mounted combat is going to be a real thing (as opposed to the butt-ugly and pointless kludge it is in Skyrim), there would be a significant difference between horses and camels. But other than that, I agree. Unless range and speed are significant factors (which would be a sharp reversal from every other game they've done), there's not much point.

Divayth Fyr

2021-08-19, 04:32 AM

It's been all but confirmed for a few years now that it's going to be Hammerfell. Bethesda even reserved the name "Redfell" or "Redfall".

And it has nothing to do with TES. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pWjcqXnP2g)

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-08-19, 06:15 AM

Sure. Just wondering if they would be, well, interesting. I'd be wondering how different you can make horses and camels really. I can't imagine size making too much of a difference and endurance and water consumption are very unlikely to be a factor.

Even if the differences were purely cosmetic it would not be a meaningless addition, it contributes to the atmosphere. Would Morrowind have been nearly as interesting if you took a cart from city to city instead of a Silt Strider? Functionally they’re identical. Or if all the Telvanni mushroom towers were just ordinary stone? Or if all the monsters were just bears, wolves and the occasional spider?

Also being a single player game they could make broad differences between mount species (camels could carry more but horses would be faster, for example, or if they do Guar, maybe make those have a faster swim speed but be slower on land) without worrying about game balance so much, though the speed differences between horse colors annoyed me in Oblivion so I’m not sure I want them to.

It's been all but confirmed for a few years now that it's going to be Hammerfell.

While I’m all in favor of going to Hammerfell for ES6, I’m not counting it as confirmed until they officially announce it. There have been too many rumors (remember ’Greenheart’?) and anyway, getting bought out might have changed their plans.

EDIT:

Apparently there is going to be an Anniversary Edition of Skyrim. *headdesk*

DigoDragon

2021-08-21, 10:16 PM

Speaking of Skyrim, I forgotten how annoying the three-stone puzzle in Ustengrav is. Always takes me a few tries because I'm never perfectly aligned like the game wants. Ah well, at least the fire traps are easy to get around. And lure the skellys into. :3

Triaxx

2021-08-21, 11:36 PM

Stone puzzle is more timing than anything. Pop WS just as the last stone lights.

veti

2021-08-22, 05:27 PM

Stone puzzle is more timing than anything. Pop WS just as the last stone lights.

I don't think the timing is that critical. I sprint, and press 'z' somewhere around the first or second stone, and I'm through.

If you can't align straight, though (what sort of controller are you using?), that would be more problematic.

Edit:

Apparently there is going to be an Anniversary Edition of Skyrim. *headdesk*

Oh noes... "Comes with Creation Club content for free..."

The only way to disable that... stuff, as far as I've found, is to go into your data folder and manually delete the BSAs. Assuming you can even identify them, of course.

They really, seriously, need to make some kind of mod management function, because the CC content I've seen is... let's say, not so great that I'm going to want it as a part of the base game forevermore.

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-08-22, 05:51 PM

Oh noes... "Comes with Creation Club content for free..."

The only way to disable that... stuff, as far as I've found, is to go into your data folder and manually delete the BSAs. Assuming you can even identify them, of course.

They really, seriously, need to make some kind of mod management function, because the CC content I've seen is... let's say, not so great that I'm going to want it as a part of the base game forevermore.

My only hope is that the existence of the Creation Club will inspire them to make the Creation Kit controls more robust, intuitive, less buggy, and allover better for Elder Scrolls 6. But I suspect if they do that it will also lead to the removal of free mods, or at best make them no longer officially sanctioned.

I hope not. But it seems like the sort of stupid short-sighted thing Bethesda would do.

Keltest

2021-08-22, 06:08 PM

My only hope is that the existence of the Creation Club will inspire them to make the Creation Kit controls more robust, intuitive, less buggy, and allover better for Elder Scrolls 6. But I suspect if they do that it will also lead to the removal of free mods, or at best make them no longer officially sanctioned.

I hope not. But it seems like the sort of stupid short-sighted thing Bethesda would do.

The last time they tried to touch the accessibility of mods, the community rioted. Even if they do try it again, i doubt it will stick at all.

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-08-22, 06:15 PM

The last time they tried to touch the accessibility of mods, the community rioted. Even if they do try it again, i doubt it will stick at all.

Wasn't that the paid mods that was the precursor to the Creation Club?

Keltest

2021-08-22, 06:31 PM

Wasn't that the paid mods that was the precursor to the Creation Club?

Yeah. And look at how small all the CC content is.

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-08-22, 06:57 PM

Yeah. And look at how small all the CC content is.

...It's been so long since I played I can't actually find the thing. Is this (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Creation_Club) a definitive list?

Keltest

2021-08-22, 07:01 PM

...It's been so long since I played I can't actually find the thing. Is this (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Creation_Club) a definitive list?

No idea. It looks right, but i havent ever cared enough to try and find every last one.

veti

2021-08-23, 01:52 AM

The last time they tried to touch the accessibility of mods, the community rioted. Even if they do try it again, i doubt it will stick at all.

That was, transparently, exactly what the Creation Club was invented for. Bethesda is itching for a slice of the action from the mod 'market', and it tried to make a grab for it but found "the community" wasn't ready for that.

Yet.

Creation Club is there to help us get used to the idea. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised* to learn that that's why there's still no sign of a release date for for TESVI: they're still softening us up for that grab, they don't want to announce the new game until they're sure a large enough part of "the community" will accept those terms.

* Appalled, yes. Saddened, definitely. Sickened, absolutely. But not surprised.

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-08-23, 06:07 AM

Creation Club is there to help us get used to the idea. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised* to learn that that's why there's still no sign of a release date for for TESVI: they're still softening us up for that grab, they don't want to announce the new game until they're sure a large enough part of "the community" will accept those terms.

Part of that might be ESO too. As long as they’re churning out Crown Store reskins and the occasional DLC, they keep the Elder Scrolls brand in peoples’ minds, so there’s no rush from a marketing standpoint.

Rynjin

2021-08-23, 06:38 AM

Honestly I believe their stated reasons for not announcing TES VI yet. They were kinda bored stiff and needed a new IP to work on.

I don't doubt that their paid mods bull**** is far from over, but multiple things can be true at once. It wouldn't make any sense for them to delay release of their flagship franchise for a bit of extra CC money when it can remain a lingering threat to be added into DLC, rereleases, and the next one

DigoDragon

2021-08-23, 09:07 AM

I don't think the timing is that critical. I sprint, and press 'z' somewhere around the first or second stone, and I'm through.

If you can't align straight, though (what sort of controller are you using?), that would be more problematic.

Controller? :3

Alignment is probably the wrong word. Timing! That was probably word I was looking for. I never remember the right spot to hit Whirlwind, so I usually slam right into the first or second gate a few times before it comes to me and I pass.

Meanwhile, the skeletal remains of Mirmulnir (the first dragon you fight) moved into the Whiterun stables and that never stops being amusing to pass by.

factotum

2021-08-23, 10:01 AM

Controller? :3

Keyboard and mouse is still a type of controller.

Triaxx

2021-08-23, 12:10 PM

Nothing short of total bankruptcy was going to prevent another Elder Scrolls, and possibly not even that.

Will we see paid mods again? Probably. i'd guess we'll see them with Starfield. But with Xbox exclusivity we should see the more draconian measures lifted. I'm still convinced that they were there only to appease Sony to getmods on the PlayStation.

veti

2021-08-23, 03:52 PM

Honestly I believe their stated reasons for not announcing TES VI yet. They were kinda bored stiff and needed a new IP to work on.

If they're bored with Skyrim, that can only be because they keep re-releasing it. Actual development was finished, done, tested and signed off more than ten years ago.

How many of the people who worked on it originally are even still at Bethesda?

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-08-23, 04:21 PM

If they're bored with Skyrim, that can only be because they keep re-releasing it. Actual development was finished, done, tested and signed off more than ten years ago.

How many of the people who worked on it originally are even still at Bethesda?

This is a good question. Turnover at software companies tends to be high.

Regardless, it's been ten years (call it eight if we count from Dragonborn's release). If they're still bored of it after almost a decade, maybe hire a new team of people to work on it? It's been long enough now they're probably going to need a new game engine or one upgraded into unrecognizability anyway, so you'd need to re-train all the old hands if you didn't hire new people who already have the skillset.

Triaxx

2021-08-23, 08:05 PM

Ugh. At this point I'm hoping they get a new engine and it's so locked down and unmodable it kills modding. Just so I can rub noses in it. But that's just frustration talking.

Keltest

2021-08-23, 08:18 PM

Ugh. At this point I'm hoping they get a new engine and it's so locked down and unmodable it kills modding. Just so I can rub noses in it. But that's just frustration talking.

Modding is THE attracting feature for elder scrolls. Its no longer the only member of its genre, and its not especially good at base without that. Locking out mods would kill the game.

Rynjin

2021-08-23, 08:19 PM

This is a good question. Turnover at software companies tends to be high.

Regardless, it's been ten years (call it eight if we count from Dragonborn's release). If they're still bored of it after almost a decade, maybe hire a new team of people to work on it? It's been long enough now they're probably going to need a new game engine or one upgraded into unrecognizability anyway, so you'd need to re-train all the old hands if you didn't hire new people who already have the skillset.

They haven't just been bored, they've been working on new IPs, like Starfield. Not like they've been completely sitting on their hands lol, even if we all wish we could forget about 76.

Caelestion

2021-08-24, 05:50 AM

Modding is THE attracting feature for elder scrolls. Its no longer the only member of its genre, and its not especially good at base without that. Locking out mods would kill the game.

And that is why Gopher has said a number of times that they'll never disable free modding, because no one wants to kill their own game.

Vinyadan

2021-08-24, 09:27 AM

I'm not very clear on where the Zenimax and Bethesda dev teams begin and end, but we have had Skyrim in 2011, ESO in 2014, then an ESO expansion every year from 2017 until today. They definitely haven't been idle with the Elder Scrolls IP. Now they are developing this Starfield thing, which isn't just a game, it's a whole IP that must be at the same level of Elder Scrolls; and the TES IP setting started out pretty undescribed with Arena and built itself up over four games and eight years before it reached Morrowind levels.
BTW, Starfield is meant to launch on 11 November 2022, which obviously brings back Skyrim memories -- and the hope they actually take the time to fix the writing and come out with a really complete experience.

About mods, I don't really have much against paid mods. I see lots of modders asking for donations. A studio allowing a modder to legally make a profit from a mod to which the studio participates looks OK to me, it's like having a freelance external developer. The much lauded Black Mesa is just that, and Valve's decision to sell it on Steam is seen as a generous act of support. I only see two problems: one related to the QA and compatibility fixes that mods usually lack and I would expect from a paid product, the other is the perspective that e.g. Bethesda may change the rules to only allow for paid mods sold through its store (highly unlikely), or make the CK a paid product (also unlikely). And of course, one can debate the share paid to the external developer for his work.

It is however undeniable that there is a huge cultural difference between hobbyist modding and corporate microtransaction complete with pre-paid no-refunds (on Steam) in-store fake money. Actually, I have been wondering: have microtransactions supplanted farming and trading items, accounts and credits for real money in online games? Because they look like the more efficient, corporate version of that practice.

Of course, as a user, I prefer mods being free. But I'd really prefer everything I want being free.

Rynjin

2021-08-24, 06:12 PM

ESO is an entirely different dev team from the usual Bethesda team.

As for paid mods, make no mistake it would kill the modding scene. Yes, modders do deserve to have some avenue for compensation or their work. That's why donations exist.

But having corporate hooks in that means the corporation can impose their values and restrictions on the mod. Because it has then become a "product". A lot of modders (most?) don't want to be employees by any other name. Some do; their avenue is then to get hired. Making that hiring process pipeline easier would be laudable. Commoditizing mods is not.

veti

2021-08-24, 07:51 PM

About mods, I don't really have much against paid mods. I see lots of modders asking for donations. A studio allowing a modder to legally make a profit from a mod to which the studio participates looks OK to me, it's like having a freelance external developer. The much lauded Black Mesa is just that, and Valve's decision to sell it on Steam is seen as a generous act of support. I only see two problems: one related to the QA and compatibility fixes that mods usually lack and I would expect from a paid product, the other is the perspective that e.g. Bethesda may change the rules to only allow for paid mods sold through its store (highly unlikely), or make the CK a paid product (also unlikely). And of course, one can debate the share paid to the external developer for his work.

Thing is, though - these are not just abstract, theoretical, alarmist concerns. They are firmly rooted in Bethesda's own past actions with this very franchise.

I don't object to the idea of paid mods. When Bethesda launched the Creation Club, it made all the right noises and lots of the right promises: about "most mods" remaining free, about sharing proceeds with the creators, but also about quality assurance, integration and support. I don't know how the "sharing" works out, but I imagine it's working as advertised because if not we would have heard about it by now; but the rest of those promises turned out to be worthless.

Free mods? There are precisely none on CC, except when some is temporarily set to free as a promotion. QA, support? Yeah. I've tried one piece of CC content, when it was made available as a promo, and it was dreadful - on Nexus it would have sunk rapidly into well deserved obscurity. (It gave me a new quest - which appeared instantly in my journal, not even bothering to wait for the courier or for me to hear a rumour. The quest itself was a brief and not very interesting dungeon, and the reward at the end was game-breakingly overpowered.)

But the real quality only showed through when I tried to disable (or, failing that, delete) this mod. Turns out, that operation was not supported. At all. As far as Bethesda was concerned, I'd taken the decision to add this crap to my game, and now it was, for me, forever part of the core experience. I deleted the BSA, but as any modder knows, that's neither a clean nor a safe way to remove a mod.

I think there is a faction within Bethesda that wants to do the right thing by modders. It's an influential faction, and because its views are so cuddly and reassuring it's allowed to write and make most of the public pronouncements on the subject. But there's also a faction that sees mods as an ongoing revenue stream to be maximised (and costs to be minimised). And this faction is, ultimately, more powerful - they are, clearly, in a position to starve resources to the CC effort - and likely to prevail.

Triaxx

2021-08-24, 10:56 PM

Not too long ago I'd have held up nexus as a shiny example of how to do it right. Sadly it's now nothing more than another example of paid mods but this time no revenue will go to the modders. Shame.

Some modders have gone to modsinexile.com but it'll take so long to gain traction it's doomed to failure before it's started.

Vinyadan

2021-08-25, 07:05 AM

Triaxx

2021-08-25, 08:35 AM

Short answer they got greedy.

Long answer they started making modpacks they call collections which isn't bad on the surface but in order to stop them from breaking they removed the ability for authors to delete their own mods. Which doesnct look good but even versions 'removed' are still accesible to the API to download them. But free users have to manually visit pages to download the mods. Paid users skip that step rendering them the only one's able to get those archived versions, and also robbing the mod authors of potential donations from page visitors.

Suffice to say they looked at Bethesda, and said we can even screw up better. Great Success!

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-08-25, 09:31 AM

Vinyadan

2021-08-25, 06:09 PM

Anteros

2021-08-25, 06:26 PM

Lol, modpacks always make people angry in new and exciting ways :biggrin:

Am I remembering wrong, or Nexus once used to be completely paywalled, while Planet Elder Scrolls used to be the free one? I think I remember when Nexus had a golden saint in its banner.

I've been using Nexus for....forever and I don't think it was ever paywalled. I certainly never paid anything for it. They certainly ask for money constantly, but you can say no.

Triaxx

2021-08-25, 06:53 PM

I would have been okay with it had they done one of the two obvious fixes. Either allow opting out. Or make the packs cost and profit share with the authors. They were already paying via points this would have been a reasonable step.

But no their response was to double down on their 'you no take mods' stance and royally tick people off.

DigoDragon

2021-08-26, 08:44 AM

Lurkmoar

2021-08-26, 10:08 AM

Just finished Meridia's dang beacon quest. It's all fun and looting until the boss starts force-lightning you in the face around corners. If it weren't for the fact the Artifacts of Skyrim makes Dawnbreaker worth it... well, it wouldn't be worth it. XD

Someone remind me, does entering a dungeon location lock that dungeon's level to yours at the time you enter?

I think so.

I always found it funny how tough the boss guarding Dawnbreaker was so strong, while Orchander, the guy that's literally immune to magic and teleports can be chumped so easily when questing for Spellbreaker.

Spore

2021-08-26, 05:38 PM

At this point I wish Bethesda would crash and burn with Skyrim Anniversary like Blizzard with WoW or Lionhead with Fable Anniversary.

Lord Raziere

2021-08-27, 12:36 AM

Okay....in one area I've decided to delete old saves that I don't use so as to help free up space, hopefully by limiting the number of save files I make as possible, my skyrim experience improves to counter the save bloat thing. it seems to be working I think?

I may have figured out something of why my skyrim keeps CTDing around the shrine of mehrunes dagon. I thought it was the modded Umbra enemy put into the game, but I managed to kill her before she could do whatever it is I thought she did, and instead an elder dragon landed and began fighting me then CTD. So I'm thinking that the shrine of mehrunes dagon just doesn't like it when normal speed fighting is occurring, because the way I got around the CTD for the modded Umbra is by using a time slow spell and I was able to kill her without any problems.

thus my logic becomes: the only way I can fight around the shrine of mehrunes dagon is by using a time stop ring to constantly be in a state of slowed down time so as to prevent a CTD from combat going too fast. I don't know WHY this is only true for the shrine of mehrunes dagon, other places are functioning fine, but there you go.

also while I still can't enter Sleeping Giant Inn, I am doing the Dark Brotherhood questline just fine, so maybe I just can't do Dark Brotherhood and the main quest at the same time in my overmodded skyrim. I'm probably wrong, but at this point I'm accepting that I'm a tech priest trying to not to anger my modded skyrim machine spirit.

Rynjin

2021-08-27, 12:54 AM

Deleting old saves won't help with save bloat. Save bloat is the phenomenon of an INDIVIDUAL save file increasing in size to the point that the game has trouble operating.

veti

2021-08-27, 04:22 AM

I recently cleaned out all my Skyrim saves older than 1 year. And yet, still the saves folder has more than 9000 files in it. What the actual heck, Skyrim?

It looks like it's actually keeping every autosave, not just the last three. Wow. That's... a lot of pointless data, since the older files can't be accessed or reloaded.

Fyraltari

2021-08-27, 10:06 AM

while Orchander, the guy that's literally immune to magic and teleports can be chumped so easily when questing for Spellbreaker.

I remember the one time I fought him. I was going for a necromancer build and was fairlyblow-level. None of my magic could hurt him and I only had the one crappy sword. So while I could damage him, I couldn't damage him fast enough to overtake his healing. But since all my magic was good for was healing me, he couldn't hurt me so bad that I couldn't heal back to 100% mid-fight as well. So we were locked in a stalemate. The fight went on for long enough that I level up twice solely from the increases in One-Handed (and the occasional Restoration) until the game glitched and froze my character's arm mid-swing which is when I called it a day.

LibraryOgre

2021-08-27, 10:34 AM

I remember the one time I fought him. I was going for a necromancer build and was fairlyblow-level. None of my magic could hurt him and I only had the one crappy sword. So while I could damage him, I couldn't damage him fast enough to overtake his healing. But since all my magic was good for was healing me, he couldn't hurt me so bad that I couldn't heal back to 100% mid-fight as well. So we were locked in a stalemate. The fight went on for long enough that I level up twice solely from the increases in One-Handed (and the occasional Restoration) until the game glitched and froze my character's arm mid-swing which is when I called it a day.

That is the most Bethesda thing I have ever read.

Fyraltari

2021-08-27, 11:11 AM

That is the most Bethesda thing I have ever read.

Legit the funniest thing that happened to me playing this game.

LibraryOgre

2021-08-27, 12:04 PM

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-08-27, 12:20 PM

So, how many people launder money in Skyrim?

The way I use the term in Skyrim is to buy all of a merchant's stock, then use their new money to sell all of my heavy things. Then I buy back the heavy things (taking a loss), and sell them again, until I am finally rid of my heavy stuff and have gained all of their gold.

Also works with potions.

I’ve done that, albeit I don’t usually buy their entire stock from them, just stuff I might use. Soul gems get this treatment from me a lot, as do any potions that boost carry capacity, but if I tried it on say…wooden plates…I’d forget they were in my inventory until I was halfway across Skyrim and after I’d passed up more useful or valuable loot as a result. It’s a good way to level up Speech.

Mind, I’ve done more traditional money laundering in Skyrim too. Take your stolen gems, ingots, furs, ingredients -> craft into jewelry, leather, and potions, all totally legit as far as the shopkeepers can tell. It’s very useful if you don’t have access to a fence.

DigoDragon

2021-08-28, 03:32 PM

I usually sell my heavy stuff to buy crafting materials to make stuff to sell. Less about laundry money and more about I need to catch up my crafting skill. The AFT mod let's your companion fence stolen goods and I've used it a couple times when I just didn't feel like finding my local fence.

I do have one pair of boots that got marked as stolen and not even the fences touch it. Weird.
"Here, Lydia, hold onto this."

Yeah, the Orchendor fight was always easy for me. I always sneak on him with a bow and shot hit a couple times, then call it a day.

I just finished the first part of the Wolf Queen quest; I died twice early on fighting a necromancer and drauger that were together because both were summoning ice elementals and raising the dead and casting ice spells, multiplying their force quickly. But then at the end, fighting the trio of cultists? They only came at me one at a time and it only took two hits each to slay them. That was nice of them to wait their turn. XD

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-08-29, 04:21 PM

factotum

2021-08-30, 12:44 AM

I thought of something else I want in ES6: the ability to skip the tutorial. It's useful the first time through but there's only so much I can take of 'equip the bow and shoot the bucket' when I've already beaten the game.

Isn't that why they give you the opportunity to respec at the end of it, though? I think the idea is that you keep a save from that point and just reload that, then respec, if you want to play through again.

Fyraltari

2021-08-30, 02:36 AM

Isn't that why they give you the opportunity to respec at the end of it, though? I think the idea is that you keep a save from that point and just reload that, then respec, if you want to play through again.

By that point, you've already picked a gender and race you can't change, though.

I don't think it'd be very hard to add an option to skip Skyrim's tutorial. Like, once Alduin attacks and everything is chaotic, instead of having to ge to the shouty NPCs, there'd be another path out of the city. Add in a dying guard telling you to "warn... Whiterun... Aargh" so you have the beginning of the main quest.

halfeye

2021-08-30, 04:27 AM

By that point, you've already picked a gender and race you can't change, though.

Which point is that? I'm pretty sure there's an auto-save and the opportunity for a normal save between the cart ride and your impending execution, which is before the your gender etc. choices.

I agree Oblivion was better in letting you re-spec. on exit from the sewers, where you could also leave a save if you managed to think of it.

veti

2021-08-30, 04:43 AM

I dunno, is it possible to just turn around and leave the keep once your hands have been untied?

Though even that would involve an annoying amount of empty replay.

Fyraltari

2021-08-30, 06:09 AM

Which point is that? I'm pretty sure there's an auto-save and the opportunity for a normal save between the cart ride and your impending execution, which is before the your gender etc. choices...

Kareeah_Indaga wants a way to skip the tutorial, it starts just after you narrowly avoid execution.

It's the same for Oblivion, once you choose your race and gender you have to go through the whole escape sequence.

Caelestion

2021-08-30, 08:35 AM

In OB/FO3/FO4, you got to redefine your character creation steps on leaving the sewers/vault. But then Skyrim doesn't have character creation options, other than what you look like.

DigoDragon

2021-08-30, 09:02 AM

Finally earned entry into the museum of the Legacy of the Dragonborn mod. Wow... someone had a vision and they really went through with it. I am impressed.

Now to figure out what stuff I got that'll go on display. I have some unusual new items like rare coins and tarot cards.

LibraryOgre

2021-08-30, 09:31 AM

Keltest

2021-08-30, 09:48 AM

To be honest, I think Skyrim would have worked just fine with a save at the exit of the cave.

One thing I would like is a way to flag that save so you can find it again. This not being able to name your save thing is bull****.

If youre on PC, you can name your save files by saving with the dev console. ~ brings it up, then the command is just "save" followed by the save name.

Triaxx

2021-08-30, 11:30 AM

Resileaf

2021-08-30, 12:46 PM

I've done just that for Fallout 4. One male and one female save just before the Vault Exit. Also for Fallout 3. Didn't for New Vegas or Oblivion. Too many important choices in the NV start, too much to be done in the opening of Oblivion depending on character build.

To be fair, the New Vegas intro is just watching Benny shoot you in the face and creating your character with Doc Mitchell. Hardly something you absolutely need to skip through.

factotum

2021-08-30, 01:58 PM

To be fair, the New Vegas intro is just watching Benny shoot you in the face and creating your character with Doc Mitchell. Hardly something you absolutely need to skip through.

You do still get the "tutorial" mission with Sunny Smiles--it's obviously optional in FNV, but it gives you quite a bit of XP and a free varmint rifle, so most of the time you'll go through it on every start.

halfeye

2021-08-30, 02:45 PM

Kareeah_Indaga wants a way to skip the tutorial, it starts just after you narrowly avoid execution.

Ah, there, I don't know any way to dodge that.

It's the same for Oblivion, once you choose your race and gender you have to go through the whole escape sequence.

On the PC, you can change your race and gender until you come out of the sewers, there's a gate, and you get a prompt saying something like "exit sewers, do you want to change your character Y/N", I think you can't save the game after saying no, which throws you out across the water from Vilverin, but if you say yes, then you can save before you click the gate again to leave. I'm not sure whether you can change your character anywhere else after the start.

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-08-30, 06:36 PM

I was thinking more of a checkbox you click to be dumped into the game proper with some basic gear once you're done with character creation, but a spot to save at the end of whatever tutorial ES6 has would work too I suppose.

Unrelated: I was not expecting to see this in my news lineup today. (https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/mod-designed-skyrim-unplayable-banned-223500584.html)

Triaxx

2021-08-30, 07:13 PM

Plus of course the decision whether to help Goodsprings or the Powder Gangers.

Archpaladin Zousha

2021-08-31, 11:49 AM

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-08-31, 12:38 PM

You think the next game will give definitive answers regarding some of the more...contentious decisions one can make in Skyrim? Or will they say something along the lines of "Things got worse no matter what decision actually got made" given the sheer amount of arguing over those plotlines has gone on for literal YEARS and one side being declared "the better choice" would probably make EVERYONE unhappy, even if their side "won?"

Depends on the thing. I wouldn’t be surprised if the results of the Civil War get swept under the rug - either by having ES6 happening concurrently with Skyrim or have some other major disaster overshadow it post-game. (Falmer invasion? Fallout from the Eye of Magnus swallows the whole region? Plague wipes everyone out?)

But some of the other things - Paarthurnax will probably be dead, because the only way to complete that quest is to kill him. The Emperor will have been assassinated. I suspect the Dark Brotherhood will have survived - even if the ‘join’ branch weren’t a lot more fleshed out, I gather they’re a popular faction and I don’t see Bethesda getting rid of them permanently.

Of course, saying a Dragon Break happened is always an option, but I think most players would say playing that card a second time following Daggerfall would cheapen its dramatic use as a plot element, that it'd be lazy (even for Bethesda)...

Agreed; Dragon Breaks should be a last resort after they’ve written themselves into a corner, not the first plot device they turn to.

Keltest

2021-08-31, 12:41 PM

My guess is that the region will be attacked by the Dominion, and the exact details of how the Civil War were going get lost as all sides get wiped out or otherwise displaced.

Archpaladin Zousha

2021-08-31, 12:55 PM

Depends on the thing. I wouldn’t be surprised if the results of the Civil War get swept under the rug - either by having ES6 happening concurrently with Skyrim or have some other major disaster overshadow it post-game. (Falmer invasion? Fallout from the Eye of Magnus swallows the whole region? Plague wipes everyone out?)

But some of the other things - Paarthurnax will probably be dead, because the only way to complete that quest is to kill him. The Emperor will have been assassinated. I suspect the Dark Brotherhood will have survived - even if the ‘join’ branch weren’t a lot more fleshed out, I gather they’re a popular faction and I don’t see Bethesda getting rid of them permanently.
That's honestly what I was afraid of: I feel like the Civil War's outcome is kind of rendered moot if the Dark Brotherhood's questline is played through to completion. With the death of the Emperor, the whole Empire becomes destabilized, whether Skyrim is part of it or not.

Fyraltari

2021-08-31, 02:28 PM

That's honestly what I was afraid of: I feel like the Civil War's outcome is kind of rendered moot if the Dark Brotherhood's questline is played through to completion. With the death of the Emperor, the whole Empire becomes destabilized, whether Skyrim is part of it or not.

Not necessarily. I don't think Motierre's plan stopped at killing the Emperor. Most likely he has a successor ready for a smooth transition of power.

veti

2021-08-31, 04:09 PM

Yep, everything the player did for Skyrim one way or the other will turn out to be meaningless. (How else can you reconcile "free choice" with "canonical timeline"?) The Emperor will have died (or vanished), although obviously no-one will blame the Dragonborn for that. My money is on "the Thalmor promptly invaded Skyrim making the outcome of the Civil War moot anyway".

Except for stopping Alduin/Ancano/Harkon/Miraak. That'll be baked in (because there weren't any real alternate endings for those quests), although obviously there'll be a whole new existential threat now.

Archpaladin Zousha

2021-08-31, 04:53 PM

Not necessarily. I don't think Motierre's plan stopped at killing the Emperor. Most likely he has a successor ready for a smooth transition of power.
I thought that intended successor was himself. :smallconfused:

Fyraltari

2021-08-31, 05:10 PM

I thought that intended successor was himself. :smallconfused:

Why?

And, let's be clear even if the Dragonborn killing him thwarted the conspiracy he was part of (which I seriously doubt he was the only member, I mean come on, we're not talking about planning a picnic here), Titus Mede very probably has heirs. Like, he's very old and he's expecting to die so the question of his succession must have come up. We're never told he has children, but he had at least one adult cousin so there's a good chance there is at least one relative with a good claim to the throne out there. Probably one Motierre wanted on the throne rather than Mede who he obviously felt was in the way of his political agenda, whatever that is.

Ultimately the Mede Empire survived two Emperors, I don't think the loss of a third is enough in itself to void the consequences of the civil war. Particularly if the Imperials won.

Also, I think the Empire being indeed gone by the time of TES: VI could be an interesting direction for the overall story. It's declined quite a lot since Arena, and Talos himself mused in Morrowind that it may have lived its time and it might be better for something else to replace it. Maybe some sort of anti-Dominion coalition of Skyrim, High Rock, Morrowind, Cyrodiil, Argonia and Hammerfell (and Orsinium?). Who knows?

Archpaladin Zousha

2021-08-31, 05:52 PM

He's already on the Elder Council, the only station I could conceivably see being higher than that is Emperor, right?

The general vibe I got is the Thalmor win no matter which decision is taken: If the Emperor survives but Stormcloaks win, Skyrim secedes and the Empire is weakened, allowing the Dominion to win Round 2 of the Great War. If the Emperor is assassinated and the Stormcloaks win, the Empire and Skyrim now stand divided and are that much easier for the Dominion to conquer. If the Emperor survives and the Empire wins, the Talos ban goes into full effect, furthering the Thalmor's overarching metaphysical goal of destroying Talos and with him reality. If the Emperor is assassinated but the Empire wins, then the Dominion win on both fronts, conquering the now weakened Empire and Talos' power is weakened with the now fully enforced ban.

Rynjin

2021-08-31, 06:12 PM

Didn't he also have a bunch of the other Elder Council members killed too, making him one of the sole surviving members of the chain of command?

Even if he didn't become Emperor, he could seed the new Council with people loyal to him, effectively becoming the power behind the throne.

Fyraltari

2021-08-31, 06:34 PM

He's already on the Elder Council, the only station I could conceivably see being higher than that is Emperor, right?
There are a lot of kings and queens on Tamriel who probably outrank most council members. That's the trick, who don't know the actual make-up of the Council and how much power each member actually wield. There's got to be a lot of variation between the High Chancellor and the average member. Especially since a good deal of them must derive power from their titles, positions and fortunes they have in addition to their seat. Also, I don't think it's ever actually said that Motierre is a member of the Council.

And again, why do you think he's in this for personal advancement? The man tells you several time that you are doing a great service to the Empire, that the necessary policies will be implemented now. But you're an assassin for hire from a death cult, he doesn't need to bull**** you. Why would he tell you this if he didn't believe it? The man fights for a cause, methinks. Not that it's incompatible with him getting a lot of money and power from it, mind. Also, If he intended to take the throne, his place would be back in the Imperial City to act as fast as possible. I don't think Motierre is the brain behind this operation, I think he's the guy who was trusted enough to organize the assassination but not important enough that they couldn't have their coup with him half a continent away.

The general vibe I got is the Thalmor win no matter which decision is taken: If the Emperor survives but Stormcloaks win, Skyrim secedes and the Empire is weakened, allowing the Dominion to win Round 2 of the Great War. If the Emperor is assassinated and the Stormcloaks win, the Empire and Skyrim now stand divided and are that much easier for the Dominion to conquer. If the Emperor survives and the Empire wins, the Talos ban goes into full effect, furthering the Thalmor's overarching metaphysical goal of destroying Talos and with him reality. If the Emperor is assassinated but the Empire wins, then the Dominion win on both fronts, conquering the now weakened Empire and Talos' power is weakened with the now fully enforced ban.
Thing is, nobody on the Empire actually supports the talos ban, or the Thalmor. Tullius starts planning the Second Great War the moment Ulfric's head hits the ground. Also, the Dominion haven't exactly had a great time since the Great War. They lost a huge part of their military (how big the loss relative to the Empire's isn't clear) and have been booted out of Hammerfell. They are also rather impopular on their own territories (or among their soldiers for that matter). The Empire had to deal with secessionists groups and they are several orders of magnitude more tolerant than the Dominion so it probably gets violent even if it hasn't reisen to Civil War level.

Speaking of, that's the whole reason they were so happy about the civil war, wasn't it? It kept the humans' focus away from them and weakened them. They wouldn't care about it that much if they were confident they could take on the Third Empire again.

Besides, say the Stormcloaks win and Skyrim secede. When the Thalmor goes to war against either nation, do you think the other is going to stand back idly? I think they'd take the opportunity to attack the Dominion.

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-08-31, 07:13 PM

Also, I don't think it's ever actually said that Motierre is a member of the Council.

He's got one of their specially-crafted-for-each-member amulets on his person. Beyond that he speaks with authority and has his own bodyguard. And Babette says he's part of "a very old and powerful Breton family, firmly established in Cyrodiil." He admittedly doesn't get addressed as 'Elder Councilor Mortierre' but since he's on a clandestine and very treasonous mission, he wouldn't be.

I think we can safely assume he's intended to be an Elder Councilor unless and until a later game outright states he's not.

And again, why do you think he's in this for personal advancement?

Astrid says so. "The Elder Council... Oh, now that explains quite a bit. Motierre, you naughty, naughty boy. Hiring the Dark Brotherhood to help you rise beyond your station. Delicious."

Rater202

2021-08-31, 07:44 PM

Regarding Amaund Montierre... And not directly related to the conversation at hand, I feel its important to note that he shares a Surname with Francois Montierre, a wealthy Breton from Cyrodiil whose death the Hero of Kvatch faked as part of Oblivion's Dark Brotherhood questline, and Mirrable Motierre, a former noblewoman from Cyrodiil who got bored of her life of luxury, casually murdered her handmaid, and then joined the Dark Brotherhood after being invited in The Elder Scrolls Online.

The implication very much seems to be that whenever this family runs into trouble they call the Brotherhood becuase one of their ancestors was a member.

Lord Raziere

2021-08-31, 07:59 PM

I have a mod that makes the Dark Brotherhood questline have more information about who your killing so that all the targets have done horrible stuff so that it feels more deserving, in that mod Titus Mede II basically sold out his Empire and you kill him before he signs away the whole empire to the Dominion, with the good guy reasoning being that maybe Motierre will be a better ruler.

but of course the downside of mods is that its so full of CTDs, and now my one of characters just CTDs on load, so now I'm seriously considering just trying to uninstall and reinstall my Skyrim SE then switch to MO2 and try to recreate all my characters. like maybe some things it won't help with, but at least I might be able to see mod conflicts better or easier so I know what to get rid of before I start.

Archpaladin Zousha

2021-08-31, 08:11 PM

What does CTD mean in this context?

Lord Raziere

2021-08-31, 08:12 PM

What does CTD mean in this context?

Crash To Desktop. basically the game closes and your back at the desktop.

Vinyadan

2021-08-31, 08:13 PM

In theory, the following games could just avoid mentioning the matters. The Civil War is just a secondary quest, and, by comparison, we never get told which House the Nerevarine joined (to tell the truth, I am not sure that someone won the war, as there was no king elected; someone above the fray like the guy in Whiterun could get the crown, and I think the fans would like it). Paarthurnax must be unknown to amost anyone in Tamriel, and has spent ages without going anywhere. The Emperor can be killed without the Brotherhood, as we've seen in the past, and the Penitus Oculatus already knew where the Brotherhood was and the password, so the two events don't exclude each other. There may be other such bifurcations, but I don't remember them right now.

Astrid says so. "The Elder Council... Oh, now that explains quite a bit. Motierre, you naughty, naughty boy. Hiring the Dark Brotherhood to help you rise beyond your station. Delicious."

That's how she talks? Damn, I'm glad I killed her.

Rynjin

2021-08-31, 08:44 PM

Astrid is great, I dunno what you're talking about. The Brotherhood in Skyrim isn't as delightfully hammy as the one in Oblivion, but at least they try.

Aeson

2021-08-31, 11:00 PM

Astrid says so. "The Elder Council... Oh, now that explains quite a bit. Motierre, you naughty, naughty boy. Hiring the Dark Brotherhood to help you rise beyond your station. Delicious."
I would point out that this appears to be the conclusion that Astrid has drawn from the knowledge that Motierre wants the Emperor dead and the implication that Motierre is somehow connected to the Elder Council. In-universe, she does not seem to have any better information on Motierre's motives than the player character does - quite possibly less, given that the player character actually meets the guy whereas she apparently doesn't even have any idea of who he is.

Her not knowing who Motierre is even after polling the Dark Brotherhood's contacts, incidentally, makes the idea that Motierre is an agent of an Elder Councilor* rather than being one himself fairly plausible to me. Astrid's in a position where she should probably know, or at the very least be able to find out, who the Elder Councilors are - the Council looks to be something like a Cabinet, not some secret club, and even with the state of Skyrim's Dark Brotherhood they ought to have at least the contacts to find a member list for a major public body like that - and yet it seems that all she and the Dark Brotherhood can discover about this guy is that his family's historically at least somewhat wealthy and influential.

*Or possibly even the Emperor, if you buy into the theory that Titus Mede II plotted his own assassination to clear the way for a successor with less baggage who might therefore be better positioned to unite the various factions within the Empire and lead it in a new war against the Dominion.

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-09-01, 05:50 AM

Her not knowing who Motierre is even after polling the Dark Brotherhood's contacts, incidentally, makes the idea that Motierre is an agent of an Elder Councilor* rather than being one himself fairly plausible to me. Astrid's in a position where she should probably know, or at the very least be able to find out, who the Elder Councilors are - the Council looks to be something like a Cabinet, not some secret club, and even with the state of Skyrim's Dark Brotherhood they ought to have at least the contacts to find a member list for a major public body like that - and yet it seems that all she and the Dark Brotherhood can discover about this guy is that his family's historically at least somewhat wealthy and influential.

She didn’t even know what the necklace was; I think we can safely assume the who’s who of the Elder Council is beyond her current pool of contacts. Major government body or no, they’re still down in Cyrodiil and her area of operations is Skyrim, and it’s not like she can type ‘Amaund Motierre’ into a search engine and get his wiki page.

Morty

2021-09-01, 08:19 AM

In theory, the following games could just avoid mentioning the matters. The Civil War is just a secondary quest, and, by comparison, we never get told which House the Nerevarine joined (to tell the truth, I am not sure that someone won the war, as there was no king elected; someone above the fray like the guy in Whiterun could get the crown, and I think the fans would like it). Paarthurnax must be unknown to amost anyone in Tamriel, and has spent ages without going anywhere. The Emperor can be killed without the Brotherhood, as we've seen in the past, and the Penitus Oculatus already knew where the Brotherhood was and the password, so the two events don't exclude each other. There may be other such bifurcations, but I don't remember them right now.

This strikes me as the most obvious route. Wherever and whenever TES6 takes place, the decisions that can be made in Skyrim will be rendered moot, unmentioned, or both.

Aeson

2021-09-01, 09:51 AM

She didnÂ’t even know what the necklace was; I think we can safely assume the whoÂ’s who of the Elder Council is beyond her current pool of contacts. Major government body or no, theyÂ’re still down in Cyrodiil and her area of operations is Skyrim, and itÂ’s not like she can type Â‘Amaund MotierreÂ’ into a search engine and get his wiki page.
Delvin Mallory recognizes the amulet pretty much instantly. Beyond that, a bunch of high-ranking Imperial officers and Thalmor agents who'd almost certainly personally know members of the Elder Council are in the province, at least the upper tier of Skyrim's local nobility at the bare minimum should have contacts with the Imperial Court...

Skyrim's not some isolated backwater, and even in its dilapidated condition the local Dark Brotherhood chapter ought to have contacts among at least some of these groups. Heck, Delvin Mallory instantly recognizing what ought to be a very rare and, by your reasoning, hardly known in Skyrim piece of jewelry suggests that he might be someone to ask about the composition of the Elder Council.

veti

2021-09-01, 07:45 PM

Delvin Mallory recognizes the amulet pretty much instantly. Beyond that, a bunch of high-ranking Imperial officers and Thalmor agents who'd almost certainly personally know members of the Elder Council are in the province, at least the upper tier of Skyrim's local nobility at the bare minimum should have contacts with the Imperial Court...

I think it is a mistake to parse too much significance into the "pretty much instantly" part. Remember how Calcelmo has spent years studying ancient Falmer, but Enthir picks it up in seconds after one glance at his Rosetta Stone? Research in Skyrim always happens at the speed of plot, and I assume that "pretty much instantly" may actually involve a good deal of rummaging through papers, consulting books and colleagues and other stuff that's just too dull to put in a cutscene.

halfeye

2021-09-02, 03:38 AM

... just too dull to put in a cutscene.

There's been a cutscene that wasn't totally dull?

Rynjin

2021-09-02, 03:42 AM

There's been a cutscene that wasn't totally dull?

The execution cutscene is really cool the first time through.

There was also the one in Knights of the Nine where you're rocketing through the sky, that was pretty exciting.

halfeye

2021-09-02, 06:15 AM

The execution cutscene is really cool the first time through.

The first time maybe, I have never in any game whatever seen one that isn't dull the 101st time through.

Aeson

2021-09-02, 06:30 AM

I think it is a mistake to parse too much significance into the "pretty much instantly" part. Remember how Calcelmo has spent years studying ancient Falmer, but Enthir picks it up in seconds after one glance at his Rosetta Stone? Research in Skyrim always happens at the speed of plot, and I assume that "pretty much instantly" may actually involve a good deal of rummaging through papers, consulting books and colleagues and other stuff that's just too dull to put in a cutscene.
If you want to show, or at least suggest, that something takes time to do, the most obvious way to handle it is to tell the player to come back later and maybe give them something to do in the meantime. Morrowind did this, Oblivion did this, Dragonborn did this...

Spore

2021-09-02, 07:06 AM

There was also the one in Knights of the Nine where you're rocketing through the sky, that was pretty exciting.

In that vein, people joke about Meridia's beacon and the quest is too short for my liking but the end scene that shows you Skyrim from above is pretty cool, even if you can see Skyrim's technical limits from that angle.

Archpaladin Zousha

2021-09-02, 01:47 PM

Random question: how seriously am I supposed to to take AllInAll's interpretations of Elder Scrolls stuff?

Namely the idea that Ulfric Stormcloak and Elenwen apparently had some sort of relationship that produced a Nord-blooded Altmer kid that's now leading Thalmor efforts to excavate or rebuild Numidium...Where did these ideas COME from?! :smalleek:

Fyraltari

2021-09-02, 01:49 PM

It's a fanfic.

Taevyr

2021-09-03, 07:58 AM

Rynjin

2021-09-03, 08:21 AM

Allinall's stuff is good, but generally shouldn't be taken seriously. The Pelinal rock-opera is pretty amazing though. Just wish it was longer.

In terms of general lore friendliness some of it is fairly accurate (see: aforementioned Pelinal opera) but stylized. Even for that though, it's like asking how seriously you should take Young Scrolls' work.

In terms of their talent and ability to craft entertaining material? Allinall's animations are good and the beats on Zoom and Saint are ****ing sublime. They both have serious talent as artists, if that's what you mean.

But are they "lore friendly"? Only in the sense of that "everything is canon, even fanworks" semi-canon meme.

Fyraltari

2021-09-03, 09:15 AM

He is using the Thalmor's grand plan (unmake existence) whose canonicity depends on how much credit you give to the "Obscure Texts" since it is only at best implied in the games.

For the rest, I don't think anyone would complain if VI had Mannimarco be back in some fashion. As for him having Thalmor ties, I don't think there's an argument to make either way*. The idea that Elenwen and Ulfric had a loving relationship and children I don't really like since she's all but stated to have been the one who oversaw his torture during the Great War. In any case, I have a hard time picturing anybody with that amount of Mannish blood reaching such a high position within the Thalmor.

*The Thalmor could see ol' Many as either a great hero who personally achieved what they aim to do or a great betrayer who used the tools of the enemy for his own benefit and left everybody else to rot.

Triaxx

2021-09-03, 03:52 PM

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-09-03, 06:00 PM

Here's a brain buster for you: TES 6:Atmora

Skyrim's Civil War made no difference because the continent of Atmora reappeared. It fulfilled a prophecy and the Thalmor were wiped out by a plague unleashed because of it, and now the empire is trying to settle this new land. But you also have high and dark elves and Bretons claiming it as ancestral homelands, plus a Khajiit legend of the end times which they've come in force to prevent.

While I certainly wouldn't mind going to Atmora, I thought it wasn't so much missing as frozen solid? :smallconfused:

Even with that being true there are still possibilities of course. Lots of ancient ruins buried in the ice, the mystery of how/why it froze over in the first place, settlers and explorers who are in way over their heads and need the player's help to obtain food/find shelter/fight off the giant Ice Worm with the huge burning knife for a face native creatures. Entire lost cities populated with the ghosts of the people who didn't flee to Tamriel in time...officials getting assassinated left, right and center as the various factions try to outmaneuver each other in order to lay claim to it...

Fyraltari

2021-09-03, 06:04 PM

But you also have high and dark elves and Bretons claiming it as ancestral homelands

I think you may be confusing Atmora and Aldmeris.

Lord Raziere

2021-09-03, 06:39 PM

I think you may be confusing Atmora and Aldmeris.

Yeah Atmora actually exists, Aldmeris is just the Altmer's collective fever dream they all insist for reals actually happened like some elven lost city.

Fyraltari

2021-09-03, 07:03 PM

Yeah Atmora actually exists, Aldmeris is just the Altmer's collective fever dream they all insist for reals actually happened like some elven lost city.

Hey now, It can be a real place. If it is, though, the most likely candidate is mainland Tamriel since it'd fit with the Annotated Anuad, explain when the Bosmer got to Tamriel (they didn't leave the Aldmer, it was the other way around) and why Topal was looking in that direction.

Archpaladin Zousha

2021-09-03, 08:08 PM

He is using the Thalmor's grand plan (unmake existence) whose canonicity depends on how much credit you give to the "Obscure Texts" since it is only at best implied in the games.
Wait, there's no concrete evidence in Skyrim itself that unmaking reality is what the Thalmor are working towards?

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-09-03, 08:21 PM

Wait, there's no concrete evidence in Skyrim itself that unmaking reality is what the Thalmor are working towards?

Esbern mentions it. On the way back to Delphine after digging him out of Riften IIRC.

Lord Raziere

2021-09-03, 08:31 PM

Esbern mentions it. On the way back to Delphine after digging him out of Riften IIRC.

Indeed:

"Well. They've been hunting down Blades since the Great War, on general principle. But if you mean me, now, in particular... maybe they've started to get an inkling of what the return of the dragons means. I don't suppose they want the world to end any more than we do. Or at least, they'd prefer it to end on their terms."

important wording there. that is a voiced line in a main quest.

Vinyadan

2021-09-03, 08:56 PM

About the Thalmor, I think I remember that the Elves consider themselves of the same kind as the Gods, but severed from them by the act of creation, which is why they see Lorkhan (or his equivalent) in a negative light. So undoing creation to gain back their place does sound like what a group of very nationalist high elves could do.

Here's a brain buster for you: TES 6:Atmora

Skyrim's Civil War made no difference because the continent of Atmora reappeared. It fulfilled a prophecy and the Thalmor were wiped out by a plague unleashed because of it, and now the empire is trying to settle this new land. But you also have high and dark elves and Bretons claiming it as ancestral homelands, plus a Khajiit legend of the end times which they've come in force to prevent.

I have a great idea: TES Atmora as a MMORPG set in this deserted continent, no NPCs, with just the players discovering a new world!

Lord Raziere

2021-09-03, 09:06 PM

I have a great idea: TES Atmora as a MMORPG set in this deserted continent, no NPCs, with just the players discovering a new world!

and we can have a microtransaction shop in it, and put all the bugs and glitches we can in it, after all who doesn't everyone love those funny bethesda glitch moments, am I right? whats a few exploiters managing to exploit the game to the point where they can abuse it to get stuff from said microtransaction shop so that they don't have to pay for any it between friends?

and then we can release a Skyrim-based update to it six months to a year later so they can have more Skyrim in their Atmora, after all why stop selling Skyrim just because its another game right? we can sell Skyrim with OTHER GAMES TOO! So that every game is in some way, selling Skyrim again. It just works, Vinyadan. It just works.

factotum

2021-09-03, 10:39 PM

important wording there. that is a voiced line in a main quest.

But it doesn't actually say that the Thalmor are actively working to end the world, only that they want it to end on their terms if that's what's going to happen anyway. Not to mention it's one man's opinion when all is said and done, and he could be, y'know, *wrong*. Concrete evidence would consist, IMHO, of some smoking gun parchment found in the Thalmor embassy, and I don't recall finding anything like that.

Lord Raziere

2021-09-03, 11:05 PM

But it doesn't actually say that the Thalmor are actively working to end the world, only that they want it to end on their terms if that's what's going to happen anyway. Not to mention it's one man's opinion when all is said and done, and he could be, y'know, *wrong*. Concrete evidence would consist, IMHO, of some smoking gun parchment found in the Thalmor embassy, and I don't recall finding anything like that.

Right, because an organization like the Thalmor is just going to leave evidence like that around for some to cause a political scandal when its in their best interests to not say what their goals are in the middle of the kingdom full of nords that hate elves on principle. and announcing that your going to destroy the world is generally not a good political move in general. while Esbern is an experienced Blade who has probably been investigating this for a while to figure out WHY they're doing all this, so I'd trust him over any thing the Thalmor themselves would say because why would they even write that down?

while Alduin wouldn't end the world in a way they want: he would end the world to make way for a new kalpa, which probably doesn't achieve the "return to their spiritual godliness" thing they intend, but start a new age on Nirn itself, thus keeping it intact but ruining any chance of them succeeding. so they have reason to stop him because his "end" is a part of a cycle, not a true return to their spirit ancestor state.

Grim Portent

2021-09-04, 02:34 AM

veti

2021-09-04, 04:29 AM

The elven faiths preach that the world is a prison, it's a common thread in most of them, but I doubt most elves actually believe it deep down, much as I doubt many Nords truly believe in Sovngarde, or believed in Alduin or dragons.

Most Nords seem to take Sovngarde pretty seriously, and I don't see any signs of prior non-belief in dragons either. There are dragon burial mounds all over the landscape, dragon word walls, there's even a dragon skull mounted on the wall in Dragonsreach.

I am sceptical of Esbern's level of knowledge and understanding of the Thalmor's agenda. Sure, he's a Blade, but all that means is that he would have been privy to some of the rumours and speculation of that organisation. And the one thing we can say with certainty about the Blades' knowledge of the Thalmor is, it wasn't good enough.

Rater202

2021-09-04, 04:40 AM

On how to handle Skyrim in the next game: Something bad happened that overshadowed the entire game specifically becuase the Psjdic order ran off with th Eye of Magnus before the LAst Dragon Born could use it, as the Auger told them too.

the Psjdics are in the next game as a major faction, split between "well, how could we know that would happen" asshats and people who are actually apologetic over their screw-up. May or may not be part of the main quest

factotum

2021-09-04, 04:47 AM

Right, because an organization like the Thalmor is just going to leave evidence like that around for some to cause a political scandal when its in their best interests to not say what their goals are in the middle of the kingdom full of nords that hate elves on principle. and announcing that your going to destroy the world is generally not a good political move in general. while Esbern is an experienced Blade who has probably been investigating this for a while to figure out WHY they're doing all this, so I'd trust him over any thing the Thalmor themselves would say because why would they even write that down?

Would now be a good time to remind you that Esbern is also slightly loopy and definitely more than a bit paranoid? Recall his reaction when you first meet him in the Riften sewers. Sure, the Thalmor have excellent reasons to want him dead, but there's suitable caution and then there's whatever the heck he's doing. As for leaving evidence around, they're definitely happy to leave written confirmation that Ulfric Stormcloak was an agent of theirs in the Embassy, which I'm pretty sure is going to be far more politically explosive than some crazy ideas about ending the world!

Rater202

2021-09-04, 04:48 AM

...Wait, wasn't Ancarno actively trying to destroy the world with the Eye of Magnus?

Fyraltari

2021-09-04, 05:11 AM

written confirmation that Ulfric Stormcloak was an agent of theirs in the Embassy, which I'm pretty sure is going to be far more politically explosive than some crazy ideas about ending the world!
Asset, not agent.

...Wait, wasn't Ancarno actively trying to destroy the world with the Eye of Magnus?
Aye. But it's never said wether it's a Thalmor thing or an Ancano thing.

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-09-04, 05:35 AM

I am sceptical of Esbern's level of knowledge and understanding of the Thalmor's agenda. Sure, he's a Blade, but all that means is that he would have been privy to some of the rumours and speculation of that organisation. And the one thing we can say with certainty about the Blades' knowledge of the Thalmor is, it wasn't good enough.

I will point out that Esbern is specifically the Blades’ Loremaster. It’s literally his job to know these things, and the last time he brought up a crackpot theory and no one believed him it was about Alduin, and he was spot on about that.

the Psjdics are in the next game as a major faction, split between "well, how could we know that would happen" asshats and people who are actually apologetic over their screw-up. May or may not be part of the main quest

Sad part is I wouldn’t have given this possibility any weight before ESO…and now I consider it a strong possibility. :smallannoyed:

Would now be a good time to remind you that Esbern is also slightly loopy and definitely more than a bit paranoid? Recall his reaction when you first meet him in the Riften sewers. Sure, the Thalmor have excellent reasons to want him dead, but there's suitable caution and then there's whatever the heck he's doing. As for leaving evidence around, they're definitely happy to leave written confirmation that Ulfric Stormcloak was an agent of theirs in the Embassy, which I'm pretty sure is going to be far more politically explosive than some crazy ideas about ending the world!

How exactly do you get ‘loopy’ out of Esbern’s behavior?

Also, Ulfric being an asset is extremely relevant to the work the Embassy is doing (keeping the war going). It’s the kind of thing that could plausibly end up in the new employee briefing - ‘if by chance you run across the leader of the Stormcloaks, don’t kill him because we need him alive.’

veti

2021-09-04, 07:10 AM

I will point out that Esbern is specifically the Blades’ Loremaster. It’s literally his job to know these things, and the last time he brought up a crackpot theory and no one believed him it was about Alduin, and he was spot on about that.

1. Sure, but as I said - the one thing we know for stone cold certainty about the Blades' intel on the Thalmor is, it wasn't very good. Even at the height of their power, they could neither accurately estimate the Thalmor's strength nor anticipate their moves. Esbern's speculation may be relatively well informed, but it's still speculation.

(Edit: 1a: I'm also not entirely convinced that "Loremaster" translates accurately to "chief intelligence analyst". Seems likely that "Archivist" might be a more plausible equivalent.)

2. Spot on? I thought we agreed just a few pages ago that Alduin wasn't, perceptibly, trying to destroy the world.

Also, Ulfric being an asset is extremely relevant to the work the Embassy is doing (keeping the war going). It’s the kind of thing that could plausibly end up in the new employee briefing - ‘if by chance you run across the leader of the Stormcloaks, don’t kill him because we need him alive.’

That's no reason to have it written down in the Embassy, unless either (a) you are over-confident in the Embassy's own security and sure it could never fall into unfriendly hands, or (b) you don't mind it falling into unfriendly hands because it's not actually true, but designed to mislead your enemies. In the former case, the lack of other written evidence in the Embassy remains unexplained. In the latter case that lack makes perfect sense, but we'd have to admit that any other evidence was also unreliable anyway so what's the point.

Archpaladin Zousha

2021-09-04, 07:57 AM

I also doubt any of the Thalmor in Skyrim would have any reason to discuss the plan to end the world, especially in writing. It's a plan for the rulers of the Thalmor and their magical and theological advisors to discuss and work on from the safety of the Summerset Isles, their agents don't need to know anything about it that you couldn't hear from any altmer priest of Auri-El. Hell, most of their agents don't even need to believe in it being possible or desirable to act towards it.

The elven faiths preach that the world is a prison, it's a common thread in most of them, but I doubt most elves actually believe it deep down, much as I doubt many Nords truly believe in Sovngarde, or believed in Alduin or dragons.

In theory the divide between true religious zealots and pragmatic racists could extend all the way up their heirarchy. We don't know anything about who's actually in charge of the Thalmor as an organisation, it's entirely possible that some of the highest ranking members believe in ending the world and have the steps they believe to be important in that as part of the cost of their cooperation with the more down to earth Thalmor. Coincidentally the important stuff to end the world is mostly things the Thalmor want to do anyway regardless of if it brings about the end of days. Oppress non-altmer, outlaw Talos, destroy the Empire, hoard magical and religious artifacts which might be helpful to bring about or prevent the end of the world.
So it doesn't really make much of a difference if the the dissolution of reality in an attempt to reclaim pre-creation spiritual forms is an active goal of the Thalmor or if it's just a sort of guiding ethos, taking Altmer religious philosophy to an extreme as justification for their real-world activities, and thus the idea that they're trying to rebuild Akulakhan and convert all of Summerset Isle into a giant crystal battery/remote-control for it so they can stop around Tamriel to destroy the Towers holding reality together is just AllinAll's speculation?

I was just kinda concerned because it looks like, from some of AllinAll's other videos, that he's got ties to Michael Kirkbride (who sang a cover of "Fly Me to the Moon" for the credits of AllinAll's Elder Scrolls/Evangelion mashup) and has had FudgeMuppet do voicework for some of his videos. I wondered if having connections to those kinds of big names in Elder Scrolls lore and Fandom meant AllinAll had some kind of insider information in regards to where the setting is going.

Lord Raziere

2021-09-04, 08:02 AM

So it doesn't really make much of a difference if the the dissolution of reality in an attempt to reclaim pre-creation spiritual forms is an active goal of the Thalmor or if it's just a sort of guiding ethos, taking Altmer religious philosophy to an extreme as justification for their real-world activities, and thus the idea that they're trying to rebuild Akulakhan and convert all of Summerset Isle into a giant crystal battery/remote-control for it so they can stop around Tamriel to destroy the Towers holding reality together is just AllinAll's speculation?

I was just kinda concerned because it looks like, from some of AllinAll's other videos, that he's got ties to Michael Kirkbride (who sang a cover of "Fly Me to the Moon" for the credits of AllinAll's Elder Scrolls/Evangelion mashup) and has had FudgeMuppet do voicework for some of his videos. I wondered if having connections to those kinds of big names in Elder Scrolls lore and Fandom meant AllinAll had some kind of insider information in regards to where the setting is going.

Unfortunately No. Kirkbride is not canon, despite the fact that his ideas are infinitely cooler and more interesting than anything bethesda could dream up because they delve straight into the kind of weirdness that makes Elder Scrolls more than just a DnD clone in digital form. a sad state of affairs to be sure.

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-09-04, 08:10 AM

1. Sure, but as I said - the one thing we know for stone cold certainty about the Blades' intel on the Thalmor is, it wasn't very good. Even at the height of their power, they could neither accurately estimate the Thalmor's strength nor anticipate their moves. Esbern's speculation may be relatively well informed, but it's still speculation.

Citation needed. While we know they were on the losing side of the Great War, we know the Blades won enough minor victories that the Thalmor still consider them a threat. We also know that the Blades no longer had a direct line to the Emperor, as the Mede Dynasty replaced them with the Penitus Oculatus, so they were fighting with a handicap. And on top of that the area protected by the Blades got hit by more in the way of disasters (succession crisis right after the Oblivion Crisis, Umbriel, the fall of Baar Dau and the Red Year) than the Thalmor prior to the Great War.

No indication whatsoever that their loss was due to bad information.

(Edit: 1a: I'm also not entirely convinced that "Loremaster" translates accurately to "chief intelligence analyst". Seems likely that "Archivist" might be a more plausible equivalent.)

While that is not untrue:

He was not a field agent, but is now believed to have been behind some of the most damaging operations carried out by the Blades during the pre-war years, including the Falinesti Incident and the breach of the Blue River Prison.

He knew enough about the Thalmor's plans to hurt them and to avoid them when most of the rest of the Blades' organization was killed.

2. Spot on? I thought we agreed just a few pages ago that Alduin wasn't, perceptibly, trying to destroy the world.

Eh? He knew Alduin was going to come back before he came back, which was why everyone thought Esbern was crazy.

That's no reason to have it written down in the Embassy, unless either (a) you are over-confident in the Embassy's own security and sure it could never fall into unfriendly hands,

...which is the Thalmor to the T.

or (b) you don't mind it falling into unfriendly hands because it's not actually true, but designed to mislead your enemies. In the former case, the lack of other written evidence in the Embassy remains unexplained. In the latter case that lack makes perfect sense, but we'd have to admit that any other evidence was also unreliable anyway so what's the point.

As I believe has been pointed out before, if you're letting your enemies get into your inner sanctum just to mislead them, that's not cleverness that's incompetence, and the Thalmor aren't that.

Also, they had the location of Esbern written down as well, and that is perfectly verifiable.

Fyraltari

2021-09-04, 08:22 AM

Citation needed. While we know they were on the losing side of the Great War, we know the Blades won enough minor victories that the Thalmor still consider them a threat. We also know that the Blades no longer had a direct line to the Emperor, as the Mede Dynasty replaced them with the Penitus Oculatus, so they were fighting with a handicap. And on top of that the area protected by the Blades got hit by more in the way of disasters (succession crisis right after the Oblivion Crisis, Umbriel, the fall of Baar Dau and the Red Year) than the Thalmor prior to the Great War.

No indication whatsoever that their loss was due to bad information.
The Great War started with the Thalmor presenting Titus with a carriage filled with the heads of every single one of the Blades' operatives within Dominion territory. That's an extremely humiliating defeat on the Blades' part.

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-09-04, 08:25 AM

The Great War started with the Thalmor presenting Titus with a carriage filled with the heads of every single one of the Blades' operatives within Dominion territory. That's an extremely humiliating defeat on the Blades' part.

Still doesn't prove their information was bad. Being badly outgunned is a possibility, for example.

Rater202

2021-09-04, 08:28 AM

The Great War started with the Thalmor presenting Titus with a carriage filled with the heads of every single one of the Blades' operatives within Dominion territory. That's an extremely humiliating defeat on the Blades' part.

That a matter of perspective really.

Were the Blades defeated humiliatingly... Or were the Thalmor agents who took them out just that good?

Fyraltari

2021-09-04, 08:34 AM

Still doesn't prove their information was bad. Being badly outgunned is a possibility, for example.

They're spies, my dude. They didn't get killed in battle. The Thalmor managed to indentify them all and murder them without any of them managing to escape. This is a massive operation that required dozens or hundreds of Thalmor agents to act in a coordinated fashion across two provinces. This wouldnahve taken months to prepare despite the Thalmor most likely being the single most important group of interest to the Blades. And the Blades (and the Empire at large) were taken completely unawares.

Keltest

2021-09-04, 08:34 AM

That a matter of perspective really.

Were the Blades defeated humiliatingly... Or were the Thalmor agents who took them out just that good?

That seems like a rather semantic difference. For an intelligence group, the defeat is humiliating either way.

Rater202

2021-09-04, 08:40 AM

That seems like a rather semantic difference. For an intelligence group, the defeat is humiliating either way.

It's only a humiliating defeat if you should have won but lost for reasons outside your control.

Ain't no shame in being beaten by someone who is just legitimately better than you.

I'm not willing to assume that this group who for four games were set up as an ancient order of super badasses got beaten out of stupidity.

Keltest

2021-09-04, 08:53 AM

It's only a humiliating defeat if you should have won but lost for reasons outside your control.

Ain't no shame in being beaten by someone who is just legitimately better than you.

I'm not willing to assume that this group who for four games were set up as an ancient order of super badasses got beaten out of stupidity.

For a group that prides itself on being very good, finding somebody who is leagues ahead of you and losing to them is still humiliating. It makes you look bad. Also, you know, they all died, which is kind of embarassing.

Rater202

2021-09-04, 08:59 AM

For a group that prides itself on being very good, finding somebody who is leagues ahead of you and losing to them is still humiliating. It makes you look bad. Also, you know, they all died, which is kind of embarassing.

No, that's tragic. a tragic loss is not necessarily a humiliating one, and if your ego is so fragile that being bested by someone who is leagues ahead of you was humiliating then you probably didn't have a healthy enough go to be that good in the first place.

Keltest

2021-09-04, 09:06 AM

No, that's tragic. a tragic loss is not necessarily a humiliating one, and if your ego is so fragile that being bested by someone who is leagues ahead of you was humiliating then you probably didn't have a healthy enough go to be that good in the first place.

Rater, i think youre rather missing the point here. Whether they were humiliated or "just" shamed for their incompetence, they had absolutely no grasp on the Thalmor's strength, numbers, movements or knowledge. They literally failed at every aspect of their job. That means they are very much not an authority on what the Thalmor are doing or what their endgame is.

Lurkmoar

2021-09-04, 09:08 AM

Losing all of your intelligence operatives in a province and having their heads carted in is gonna sting.

I for one believe that the Blades would have felt humiliated. Doubly so after Cloud Ruler Temple was sacked. And Ocato was killed. And then being officially disbanded after their organization has served the empire for centuries and have to watch their backs because of kill on sight Thalmor orders.

Edit: My bad, forgot that Ocato was assassinated prior to the great war. Still, not a good look for the Blades.

veti

2021-09-04, 09:17 AM

Citation needed. While we know they were on the losing side of the Great War, we know the Blades won enough minor victories that the Thalmor still consider them a threat. We also know that the Blades no longer had a direct line to the Emperor, as the Mede Dynasty replaced them with the Penitus Oculatus, so they were fighting with a handicap. And on top of that the area protected by the Blades got hit by more in the way of disasters (succession crisis right after the Oblivion Crisis, Umbriel, the fall of Baar Dau and the Red Year) than the Thalmor prior to the Great War.

No indication whatsoever that their loss was due to bad information.

Citation:

"We fought them in the shadows, all across Tamriel. We thought we were more than a match for them. We were wrong."

"We fatally underestimated the Thalmor."

"But even the Blades didn't see the Great War coming. We underestimated the Thalmor, and they destroyed us."

You make a good point about them being cut off from the Emperor. All the more reason to doubt the quality of their intelligence. As for the disasters, those all happened at least two lifetimes before the Great War. Sure, disasters are bad, but for a healthy body there's such a thing as recovery.

Fyraltari

2021-09-04, 09:48 AM

I'm not willing to assume that this group who for four games were set up as an ancient order of super badasses got beaten out of stupidity.

I mean, you remember what started the Oblivion Crisis, right? The Blades really don't live up to their hype.

Meanwhile all of the Thalmor's successes are intrigue-related: Usurping power in the Summerset Isles, possibly assassinating Ocato, supporting a coup d'état in Valenwood to install a puppet regime, causing/taking credit for solving the Void Nights, driving the Blades out of their territory, crafting the White-Gold concordat to be as damaging to the Empire in the long run as possible and manipulating Ulfric into starting a civil war.

I think it's fair to say that the Thalmor are the best at political sneakiness in all of Tamriel.

Of course, the Blades got nerfed and the Thalmor got vilain grade plot armour in service to the story, but still.

Rater202

2021-09-04, 09:57 AM

I mean, you remember what started the Oblivion Crisis, right?

The bad guy's somehow knowing about the Emporer's secret escape tunnel and the Emporer just letting them kill him when the PC could have easily killed the last of the assailants because he foresaw his own death?

Like, seriously, there is literally no reason for the Emporer to die there other than he himself believing it was pre-ordained... When the previous game established that Prophecy meant jack squat unless you put stock in it and even then doesn't have to be followed to the strict letter.

Fyraltari

2021-09-04, 10:08 AM

The bad guy's somehow knowing about the Emporer's secret escape tunnel and the Emporer just letting them kill him when the PC could have easily killed the last of the assailants because he foresaw his own death?

The Crimson Dawn putting The Entire Imperial family, meaning the Emperor's three adult sons and any children they moght have to the sword.

And then finding out the secret passage and the Amulet of King's hiding place.
Amulet that was left unsupervised because the grandmaster of the Order left to pray.

Oh and one of the clues every member of the Crimson Dawn is supposed ro find to join, the one that shows the location of their main base is painted right in front of the White-Gold Tower.

Archpaladin Zousha

2021-09-04, 10:10 AM

I think I remember someone saying on a Tumblr somewhere that they felt Caius Cosades was the best of the Blades, but only because he didn't really bother with spying at all: he just did skooma and maintained a few contacts. He gave you leads and pointed you in the right direction, but he always encouraged you to care more about Morrowind, not the Empire.

What's it say about the Blades that the skooma-addled slacker who didn't even really care that much about the Empire's political interests in the province he was assigned to, was more effective overall than the ones who took their jobs seriously? :smallamused:

Kareeah_Indaga

2021-09-04, 10:28 AM

They're spies, my dude. They didn't get killed in battle. The Thalmor managed to indentify them all and murder them without any of them managing to escape. This is a massive operation that required dozens or hundreds of Thalmor agents to act in a coordinated fashion across two provinces. This wouldnahve taken months to prepare despite the Thalmor most likely being the single most important group of interest to the Blades. And the Blades (and the Empire at large) were taken completely unawares.

On the Thalmor's home turf, where the Thalmor also have the massive advantage of being the local government and being able to bring all of its resources to bear. Still not inherently an intelligence issue.

Being able to tell that the hurricane is coming and being able to stop it from coming are two different things.

As for the disasters, those all happened at least two lifetimes before the Great War. Sure, disasters are bad, but for a healthy body there's such a thing as recovery.

Whose lifetimes? Esbern was born around the time of the Great Collapse of Winterhold (which also probably didn't help), and he's a human as opposed to something longer lived. I will also point out that the Empire as a whole has not really recovered: Black Marsh is still independent, the Dunmer are still refugees, High Rock is IIRC under attack by pirates...

The Crimson Dawn

Nitpick: Mythic Dawn.

Edit: Also does it bother anyone else that the symbol for Mehrunes Dagon in ESO is the exact same one as the Mythic Dawn in Oblivion? :smallyuk:

DigoDragon

2021-09-04, 01:46 PM

Aye. But it's never said whether it's a Thalmor thing or an Ancano thing.

I think the one getting the blame/credit depends on whether the plan failed or succeeded. ;)

Random curiosity question about Anise, the hermit witch living in the shack SW of Riverwood: besides trespassing in her basement and stealing from her, what causes her to aggro against you? Seems like in all my play throughs she's friendly the first time I pass her, but on a second passing she will get up and Force Lightning me in the face, even if I've not entered her home. :smalleek: I can't think of anything I do that could trigger her to attack me.

Anyway, I am getting very invested in the Legacy of the Dragonborn mod! I'm running all around collecting artifacts to put on display. Still learning how the display mechanics work. I figured most of it out by trial and error, and it's easy enough to just grab things I didn't want it taking. The paintings look rather neat in the halls. 10/10.