Psionic Monk?

[nick_crenshaw]

It occurs to me that an easy way to create a psionic monk is to just take the Monk from the PHB change the source of all his supernatural abilities and make them into psionic abilities, kinda like the Soulknife.

Thought/feedback?

[Zombulian]

For what purpose, exactly?
Supernatural Abilities aren't explicitly vancian, plenty of Psionic classes have supernatural abilities. You can absolutely flavor monk abilities to be psionically-based though, it works plenty well.

Check out the Tashalatora feat.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Take one level of monk for the unarmed strike abuse, then take psychic warrior and Tashalatora.

There.

[Morphic tide]

Psi-Likes would have a few extra vulnerabilities for no particular gain. I'd follow the route of the Psychic Rogue, stripping the frills and most Power-replaceable abilities as well as reducing certain scaling values, then giving them Powers as a way to be in the exact same niche with more utility. Only in this case it's very definitely still a Monk, getting the Natural Weapon modifiers without any Powers granting them, because your Natural Weapons are your fists.

Otherwise, take at most four levels of Monk for Ki Strike (or just use Metaphysical Claw lol) and then Monastic Training (Psychic Warrior) into Tashalatora. You keep Unarmed Strike, AC bonus, and Flurry of Blows scaling for the price of two feats, with the first of them being able to replace any of your Bonus Feats (as such, I suggest Monk 2 to keep Improved Grapple or Combat Reflexes), and get access to the PsyWar wonders, particularly Expansion and Psionic Lion's Charge, but also eventually Truevenom.

Psionic Lion's Charge is a heinous Power on a full-bore Tashalatora, by the way. Take the TWF line (you can fit the feats with PsyWar bonuses) and use one of the Light Monk weapons, then you have your Unarmed Strikes as your primary weapon, a Kama as your TWF off-hand weapon (Trip does piggyback off a lot of Grapple optimization, which is a relatively mild additional investment), can use one of the two claws from Claws of the Beast as well as the Bite from Bite of the Wolf, and get Unarmed Strike attacks from the Flurry. Then eventually get to cackle madly with Form of Doom's four tentacles.

Every single one of these attacks gets +1 damage for each power point over the minimum of 3 you spend. With the ill-advised full burn, that's ML-3 extra damage per hit before charge multipliers. And Practiced Manifester lets you make more high-value dips like Swordsage for Tiger Claw for even more attacks and Desert Wind for even more per-hit damage and Assassin's Stance for 2d6 Sneak Attack for Craven.

[Psyren]

It occurs to me that an easy way to create a psionic monk is to just take the Monk from the PHB change the source of all his supernatural abilities and make them into psionic abilities, kinda like the Soulknife.

Thought/feedback?

Almost all of them would get worse by doing this. Supernatural abilities can't be dispelled, don't provoke, have no components, aren't subject to catapsi etc, all weaknesses that your versions would gain.

And in return there'd be no advantage. Psi-like abilities do have strengths, such as automatically scaling and augmenting with the creature's ML (the monk's level in this case) - but the only two abilities the PHB monk has that act like spells are Abundant Step and Empty Body, which gain basically nothing from augmentation.

A far better way to make a psionic monk would be:

1) Qinggong Monk from PF and turn the SLAs to PLAs
2) Tashalatora Monk/Psywar or Monk/Ardent

[Maat Mons]

If you're going to do Monk-related homebrew, maybe fix some of the problems with the Monk class?

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Unarmed strike really should be added to the list of weapons Monks are proficient with. Though I might instead suggest giving Monk's proficiency with all simple weapons, plus extra proficiencies determined by the style of martial arts they practice, chosen at 1st level.

AC Bonus: Ordinarily, I suggest that at 1st level Monks be given an armor bonus to AC of 4 + 1/3rd their level. And then hold off on +Wis to AC until 2nd level, but make it work in light armor or no armor. But with the innate ability to manifest Inertial Armor, this change is less important. Still maybe worth considering though. It would help conserve their limited supply of power points at low levels.

Flurry of Blows: The ability to manifest Hustle increases the chances of being able to use this class feature. But it still would be nice to add some other means of being mobile while fighting, to help conserve power points.

Unarmed Strike: It's a shame that the class makes this whole thing about Monk weapons, and then nobody ever uses them after 4th level because the damage falls behind your unarmed strike. I'd like to see an ability that allows the Monk to "imbue ki into" (or whatever) a weapon to give it the same damage and other perks as his unarmed strike.

Ki Strike: The ability to manifest Metaphysical Weapon can stand in for part of this. But it would still be nice to have the ability to overcome DR as a material and an alignment. I'd suggest turning this into a menu of abilities. One of the options gives you a scaling enhancement bonus to your unarmed strikes and any Monk weapons you wield. Then there would also be options for treating your attacks as aligned or made out of some material. More options than just lawful and adamantine. I'd also throw in options that let you deal slashing or piecing damage with unarmed strikes. And maybe an option to upgrade from just overcoming DR/adamantine to also ignoring the hardness of objects.

Slow Fall: This can be duplicated with Cat Fall. And the ACF's for it can also be duplicated with powers. But I'd still convert Slow Fall, Wall Run, and Water Step into menu options a Monk could select. It would help save on powers known and power points.

Wholeness of Body: This is pretty redundant with powers. And I don't like having an extra pool of resources to keep track of. So I'd ditch this.

Abundant Step: This is another one I'd probably get rid of. That or give some sort of at-will short-range teleport.

Diamond Soul: Spell Resistance can interfere with buff spells from allies. So definitely look into replacing this with something that protects from harmful spells without potentially blocking helpful ones.

Quivering Palm: Here again, just give a power that does this. Remember, anyone can choose to deliver a touch spell with a punch if they want.

Tongue of the Sun and Moon: I never really got the logic behind giving this to Monks anyway.

Perfect Self: I suggest completely rethinking the class' capstone. It just doesn't do it for me.

[Zarvistic]

You could give it everything a divine mind gets on top of what the monk already gets. It would be a decent class, not too powerful at all.

[nick_crenshaw]

Almost all of them would get worse by doing this. Supernatural abilities can't be dispelled, don't provoke, have no components, aren't subject to catapsi etc, all weaknesses that your versions would gain.

And in return there'd be no advantage. Psi-like abilities do have strengths, such as automatically scaling and augmenting with the creature's ML (the monk's level in this case) - but the only two abilities the PHB monk has that act like spells are Abundant Step and Empty Body, which gain basically nothing from augmentation.

A far better way to make a psionic monk would be:

1) Qinggong Monk from PF and turn the SLAs to PLAs
2) Tashalatora Monk/Psywar or Monk/Ardent
How about creating a class of abilities called paranatural abilities that act like the psionic version supernatural abilities?

[Crake]

Almost all of them would get worse by doing this. Supernatural abilities can't be dispelled, don't provoke, have no components, aren't subject to catapsi etc, all weaknesses that your versions would gain.

And in return there'd be no advantage. Psi-like abilities do have strengths, such as automatically scaling and augmenting with the creature's ML (the monk's level in this case) - but the only two abilities the PHB monk has that act like spells are Abundant Step and Empty Body, which gain basically nothing from augmentation.

A far better way to make a psionic monk would be:

1) Qinggong Monk from PF and turn the SLAs to PLAs
2) Tashalatora Monk/Psywar or Monk/Ardent

Making the abilities psionic in nature doesn't necessarily mean making the psi-like. The soulknife's mind blade is (Su) for example, and is thus not subject to any of the issues you mentioned. It sounds like what the OP is suggesting is purely a fluff change, and not a mechanical one.


How about creating a class of abilities called paranatural abilities that act like the psionic version supernatural abilities?

Supernatural abilities already cover that, you don't need to give it a new name, see above with the soulknife's mind blade.

[StSword]

Dreamscarred Press came up with an Enlightened Monk class for one's psychic monk needs.

You can check it out on the wiki here (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/enlightened-monk).

[nick_crenshaw]

If you're going to do Monk-related homebrew, maybe fix some of the problems with the Monk class?

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Unarmed strike really should be added to the list of weapons Monks are proficient with. Though I might instead suggest giving Monk's proficiency with all simple weapons, plus extra proficiencies determined by the style of martial arts they practice, chosen at 1st level.
Considering that most games I've played have just assumed that monks are automatically proficient and that this is really only a problem with rules lawyers.

AC Bonus: Ordinarily, I suggest that at 1st level Monks be given an armor bonus to AC of 4 + 1/3rd their level. And then hold off on +Wis to AC until 2nd level, but make it work in light armor or no armor. But with the innate ability to manifest Inertial Armor, this change is less important. Still maybe worth considering though. It would help conserve their limited supply of power points at low levels.
Seems a bit much seeing as monks also add their wisdom score score to their AC, but that just might be me.

Flurry of Blows: The ability to manifest Hustle increases the chances of being able to use this class feature. But it still would be nice to add some other means of being mobile while fighting, to help conserve power points.
I don't quite understand what you're talking about here.

Unarmed Strike: It's a shame that the class makes this whole thing about Monk weapons, and then nobody ever uses them after 4th level because the damage falls behind your unarmed strike. I'd like to see an ability that allows the Monk to "imbue ki into" (or whatever) a weapon to give it the same damage and other perks as his unarmed strike.
For me this only a problem if you're a power gamer and not fluff gamer. Also if you restrict the Versatile Unarmed Strike feat so that monks would still need weapons to overcome DR.

Ki Strike: The ability to manifest Metaphysical Weapon can stand in for part of this. But it would still be nice to have the ability to overcome DR as a material and an alignment. I'd suggest turning this into a menu of abilities. One of the options gives you a scaling enhancement bonus to your unarmed strikes and any Monk weapons you wield. Then there would also be options for treating your attacks as aligned or made out of some material. More options than just lawful and adamantine. I'd also throw in options that let you deal slashing or piecing damage with unarmed strikes. And maybe an option to upgrade from just overcoming DR/adamantine to also ignoring the hardness of objects.
I do like the scaling enhancement bonus for the purposes of acquiring abilities like flaming and shocking.

Slow Fall: This can be duplicated with Cat Fall. And the ACF's for it can also be duplicated with powers. But I'd still convert Slow Fall, Wall Run, and Water Step into menu options a Monk could select. It would help save on powers known and power points.
Seeing as it's an extraordinary ability why change it.

Wholeness of Body: This is pretty redundant with powers. And I don't like having an extra pool of resources to keep track of. So I'd ditch this.
Don't like being able to heal yourself? Too much math for you (If that sounded mean I apologize

Abundant Step: This is another one I'd probably get rid of. That or give some sort of at-will short-range teleport.
I kinda agree, to me it doesn't seem to match even the fluff of a monk.

Diamond Soul: Spell Resistance can interfere with buff spells from allies. So definitely look into replacing this with something that protects from harmful spells without potentially blocking helpful ones.
Only if you let it, you can volunteer to lower it.

Quivering Palm: Here again, just give a power that does this. Remember, anyone can choose to deliver a touch spell with a punch if they want.
So it can provoke an AoO?

Tongue of the Sun and Moon: I never really got the logic behind giving this to Monks anyway.
I think it's mainly fluff to represent the monks enlightenment.

Perfect Self: I suggest completely rethinking the class' capstone. It just doesn't do it for me.
See above, also it should be noted that the Cleric, Rogue, and Sorcerer have no capstone abilities and the Fight and Wizard have only bonus feats.

[nick_crenshaw]

Making the abilities psionic in nature doesn't necessarily mean making the psi-like. The soulknife's mind blade is (Su) for example, and is thus not subject to any of the issues you mentioned. It sounds like what the OP is suggesting is purely a fluff change, and not a mechanical one.
So far I think you're the only one to understand what I'm suggesting.



Supernatural abilities already cover that, you don't need to give it a new name, see above with the soulknife's mind blade.

Glad to here that, and you right about the name change.

[nick_crenshaw]

Edit your comment; there's a delete option if you click on the checkbox and hit the delete button.

Thanks, hadn't noticed that before.

[nick_crenshaw]

Take one level of monk for the unarmed strike abuse, then take psychic warrior and Tashalatora.

There.

What about just giving him the Psychic Warriors psionic abilities?

[bekeleven]

What about just giving him the Psychic Warriors psionic abilities?

Psychic Warrior is a middling tier 3 and monk (with no ACFs, or just a few meh ones) is tier 5. You could straight-up gestalt them and the result would be a reasonable, maybe strong-ish, tier 3.

That said, that's almost what Monk 1/Psywar 19 already is.

[Morphic tide]

Seems a bit much seeing as monks also add their wisdom score score to their AC, but that just might be me.
A Monk requires 18 Wisdom to match a Chain Shirt's armor bonus. It is not substituting for Dexterity investment at all in this measure. They very badly need some flat 1st-level AC to make up for not getting to wear Light armor. I personally think of a +2, because then 14 Wis matches the Chain Shirt and keep pace stays fairly easy. The reason for this magnitude of suggestion is very particular to board optimization, as there's an extreme paranoia around not getting 18s no matter how many more things you can be useful in by taking the tip off.


For me this only a problem if you're a power gamer and not fluff gamer. Also if you restrict the Versatile Unarmed Strike feat so that monks would still need weapons to overcome DR.
Err... What kind of "Fluff Gamers" do you play with that willingly deal literally half damage, if not even worse? Because that's the territory Monk gets into. They in fact end up with so much Unarmed Strike damage, when built remotely reasonably, that they still do more damage through the DR by brute force of Unarmed Strikes having full Strength than the half-Strength Light weapons matching DR.

Quarterstaff can be kinda worth it, but you're so much better off using any of the Martial two-handers on any full-BAB class that it's rather insulting, because the 1.5x Strength is disabled in Flurry. Though granted, so is the half-Strength on the Light weapons, but that's Full Attack specific and comes with -2 to the attack roll.


Don't like being able to heal yourself? Too much math for you (If that sounded mean I apologize)
It's referencing Body Adjustment, 3pp for 1d12 HP. Also to a slightly lesser degree Vigor's 1pp per 5 temporary HP.


What about just giving him the Psychic Warriors psionic abilities?
Lot of weirdness around inapplicability of the Claw powers, ends up basically forcing the weirdness around Unarmed Strikes being treated as Manufactured Weapons to reuse Metaphysical Blade and such for them. Look to Psychic Rogue's example instead: Which Powers are most Monk-appropriate, which class features are most Power-replaceable, and how much scaling is substituted with Powers.

[Maat Mons]

How much of a benefit that 4 + 1/3rd level armor bonus is depends on level.

At 18th level, it reaches its non-epic maximum of +10. Ordinarily, you could get a +8 armor bonus from Bracers of Armor, a +4 untyped bonus from Monk, your Dex, your Wis, and your Ring of Deflection. I forgot to mention it, but I was figuring this would replace the untyped bonus Monk normally gives. So, at 20th level you'd have a +10 from my suggested ability, your Dex, your Wis, and your Ring of Deflection. It's an armor bonus, which is also what Bracers of Armor are, so adding those wouldn't help. So the net effect at that level is that my suggestion brings AC down by 2 points, but saves the character from having to buy a 64,000 gp item.

At low levels, the change is much nicer. You'd essentially have a chain shirt for free, and you'd eventually get Wis to AC on top of that. At these levels, a typical monk can only have a +4 armor bonus to AC if the party Wizard is kind enough to cast Mage Armor on him. And even then it only lasts an hour. So it's a substantial benefit, I'll grant you. Which is why I figured that the +Wis to AC part should be delayed if this ability is added. Then, until Wis to AC comes online, the Monk will essentially just have the equivalent of a chain shirt. Perhaps Wis to AC could be delayed by more than one level, if it's still too strong.

If we're talking about a Monk-like class that gets manifesting, it seems likely that it would have Inertial Armor on its class power list. The duration still starts off at only an hour at 1st level, but you'd no longer need to beg a casting of Mage Armor off a party member. And Inertial Armor scales up quire impressively at higher levels. At manifester level 19, it can grant an armor bonus of up to +13 before tricks. That makes my suggested ability a lower bonus, but without the need to spend power points.

And it may also be worth comparing to Swordsage and Moon-Warded Ranger. Both of those, at 2nd level get Wisdom to AC while wearing light armor. So at 2nd level, they're wearing chain shirts and getting a +4 armor bonus while still getting Wis to AC. And at 20th level, they're wearing +5 Mithril Breastplates, and getting a +10 armor bonus to AC while still getting Wis to AC.



Flurry of Blows requires a full-attack action. Of course, all melee character wind up reliant of full attacks to get their best damage. But for Monks that reliance comes at 1st level, instead of starting when they get base attack bonus +6 like with other classes. Full attacking means not moving more than 5 feet in a round. This is an inconvenience that all melee characters face. But, to me, it seems especially unwarranted for Monks, who I imagine as very mobile people. So, for thematic reasons, I'd like the class to have an ability to move and full attack in the same round. Or to have a standard-action attack that's nearly as good as their full attack. It's really a personal preference.



The fact that Monk weapons wind up numerically weaker isn't a problem for a pure power gamer. Those guys don't care whether their character is using a staff or a fist, not beyond the effect it has on their numbers. The people this is a problem for are the ones who care about both fluff and power, at least to some degree.



Erm, the conclusion I reached in my post was to keep Slow Fall around. I just think it should be resented as an option, alongside Wall Walker (Dungeonscape, p11) and Water Step (Stormwrack, p50), in such a way that it's possible to have all three.



I like healing myself, but if we're talking about a psionic character, I presume the class will have access to Body Adjustment. And if my choice is having a pool of healing, or instead having enough extra power points to get that same healing out of Body Adjustment, I'll always take the latter.



Lowering your Spell Resistance is a standard action, and it stays down until the start of your next turn. So to suppress it during combat to accept a buff from an ally, you have to spend an entire turn not attacking. And you also leave yourself open to enemy spells cast before the start of your next turn. It's just a clunky ability.



By the level at which you gain Quivering Palm, any caster or psionic character will have long ago gotten to the point where they can consistently make the Concentration checks to cast defensively, and thus not provoke attacks of opportunity.

[Remuko]

Err... What kind of "Fluff Gamers" do you play with that willingly deal literally half damage, if not even worse? Because that's the territory Monk gets into. They in fact end up with so much Unarmed Strike damage, when built remotely reasonably, that they still do more damage through the DR by brute force of Unarmed Strikes having full Strength than the half-Strength Light weapons matching DR.

Quarterstaff can be kinda worth it, but you're so much better off using any of the Martial two-handers on any full-BAB class that it's rather insulting, because the 1.5x Strength is disabled in Flurry. Though granted, so is the half-Strength on the Light weapons, but that's Full Attack specific and comes with -2 to the attack roll.

light weapons add full strength mod to damage in main hand, only offhand weapons get half strength and thats regardless of if theyre light or not.

[Arkhios]

I dunno, it's kinda neat idea, but it really doesn't require all that much work (apart from the most obvious pitfalls in monk's abilities). Just house rule that monk is a psionic class, and maybe give them Autohypnosis, Knowledge (Psionics), and maybe even Use Psionic Item as class skills.

Now, since it would be considered psionic class, they wouldn't need Wild Talent to pick up Psionic Feats.

[Darg]

Why not go monk 6/fist of zuoken or the SRD version of psionic fist? You get powers and keep your monk flavor and get a couple bonus feats.

Of course, the route of tashalatora + War Mind is also good for some ability goodness and extra BAB at the cost of a few powers known.

And the lame route of tashalatora + wilder which is similar to psychic warrior with the same BAB, more PP, and higher level powers, but you do get less powers known and no bonus feats.

If one ignores the unnecessarily crappy update of Skin of the Ectoplasmic Armor in the MIC, the version in CPsi isn't considered armor and can be used by a monk. It was specifically done to spite monks.

[Vaern]

Only if you let it, you can volunteer to lower it.


A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance. Doing so is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Once a creature lowers its resistance, it remains down until the creature’s next turn. At the beginning of the creature’s next turn, the creature’s spell resistance automatically returns unless the creature intentionally keeps it down (also a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity).

You can lower your spell resistance, but someone wanting to cast a beneficial spell on you would have to delay their action until after your turn to give you the opportunity to do so... which then leaves you vulnerable to harmful spells until your spell resistance comes back online during your next turn. Also, when you fall unconscious you are unable to spend an action to actively lower your spell resistance and your healer may have difficulty healing you.
Spell resistance is a nice defense to put on monsters if you want to give a group's spellcasters a bit of an extra challenge, but it can be extremely inconvenient for PCs who tend to rely on other people casting spells on them.

[Gnaeus]

You could give it everything a divine mind gets on top of what the monk already gets. It would be a decent class, not too powerful at all.

This would be what I would do also, but I like low tier gestalting.

[RandomPeasant]

Considering that most games I've played have just assumed that monks are automatically proficient and that this is really only a problem with rules lawyers.

That seems like a terrible argument for not fixing it. What is the upside of keeping Monks technically not proficient with the thing they are supposed to spend most of their time using, especially if you're going to treat them as de facto proficient in it anyway?


Seems a bit much seeing as monks also add their wisdom score score to their AC, but that just might be me.

But they don't get to add armor bonuses to AC. It's not really the number of sources of bonuses you have that matters, it's what the overall bonuses add up to.


For me this only a problem if you're a power gamer and not fluff gamer. Also if you restrict the Versatile Unarmed Strike feat so that monks would still need weapons to overcome DR.

People aren't neatly divided into "power gamers" and "fluff gamers". No one is so focused on mechanical power that they'll take an ability that destroys their character concept because it gives them a marginal bonus. No one is so focused of flavor that they'll take an ability that cripples their character's power because it's a perfect conceptual fit. People have different preferences for the tradeoff between fluff and crunch, but on the margin everyone follows incentives. And "you do half as much damage" is a pretty big incentive.

[Quentinas]

People aren't neatly divided into "power gamers" and "fluff gamers". No one is so focused on mechanical power that they'll take an ability that destroys their character concept because it gives them a marginal bonus. No one is so focused of flavor that they'll take an ability that cripples their character's power because it's a perfect conceptual fit. People have different preferences for the tradeoff between fluff and crunch, but on the margin everyone follows incentives. And "you do half as much damage" is a pretty big incentive.

While I have not seen the first, in my group I have seen the second option even if rarer but I have seen it. It was not half power like half damage, but it was more a malus than anything else, even if it was a perfect fit for the character concept (the most astonishing case I remember was a character that made a wizard with a very low int, but an high charisma and was a spellcaster based on using wands and scrolls )

And as for the psionic monk I second the fist of zuoken option

[DMVerdandi]

Tashalatora is the monk fix, and is the natural spell to the class.

for everything the monk is, it is infinitely better as a modular moving part for psionic classes, and any monk concept you would think of is better by simply taking tashalatora[Plus carmindine monk].


Ninja? Lurk or Psionic Rogue.

Sohei? Psywar or ardent

Xian [Cultivator]??!! Erudite

Shinto bladesmith? Psionic Artificer


Now, personally, I prefer monk to be natively psionic, but at least in 3.5 to me this is as good as it can get.

[Darg]

Does monk need to be fixed though? At level 1 they basically get 3 feats, 3 good saves, and wisdom to AC. By level 4, when UAS is large sized, it does damage like a one handed greatsword. The loss of BAB sucks, but it isn't all that bad considering a TWF fighter would be looking at much less damage per attack and only 3 more AB at 20.

Not to mention monks get some really nice love with feat, item, and PRC support. The only real thing lacking is the unarmored aspect, which hurts I'll admit. It's only crippling at low levels if your wizard friend isn't a calculating fellow.

[Psyren]

So far I think you're the only one to understand what I'm suggesting.

If all you want is to write "this is psionic" after every Su ability in the core 3.5 monk, that seems like pretty useless/unnecessary text to me. Where this would actually matter is with a monk that gets more stuff like Qinggong or Tashalatora.

[Quentinas]

Another way but inferior to do a psionic monk would be using the feat ascetic psion (from secret of sarlona) and then using feats like superior unarmed strike or other class to boost the unarmed strike that it's not boosted by ascetic psion . But this option is inferior to tashalatora (except that it give the benefit of 1 feat and half which is kung fu genius and psionic meditation but only half of the second feat as it's not the move action but the standard action)

[Morphic tide]

Does monk need to be fixed though? At level 1 they basically get 3 feats, 3 good saves, and wisdom to AC. By level 4, when UAS is large sized, it does damage like a one handed greatsword. The loss of BAB sucks, but it isn't all that bad considering a TWF fighter would be looking at much less damage per attack and only 3 more AB at 20.

Not to mention monks get some really nice love with feat, item, and PRC support. The only real thing lacking is the unarmored aspect, which hurts I'll admit. It's only crippling at low levels if your wizard friend isn't a calculating fellow.
Yes, they do need some fixes. They are sorely lacking for damage support in their items, forcing them into a lot of Strength investment, and the Wisdom to AC does not have an up-front component substituting the armor you're not allowed to wear so it needs to be at least 16 to even chance matching the Light Armor characters, presuming you have a pile of Dexterity, and you can't take Weapon Finesse at 1st level because you have less than full BAB.

A TWF Fighter would in fact have more damage, because there are more ways to stack damage on actual Light and One-Handed weapons than on Unarmed Strikes, because of special materials and Fighter-specific feats and quantities of feats the Monk doesn't get because the roots of the trees aren't in their extremely limited list and more attacks than the Monk after 6th level with the BAB and narrower ability focus to afford the penalty and TWF feats.

Monks have a whole lot of "not quite there" numbers, basically. They have the mechanics to be good, to be utterly monstrous even, but those mechanics don't have enough numbers attached to them. The AC bonus doesn't have any flat value to reduce the Wisdom needed to match Light Armor to one sensible at 1st level, they can't be Dex-based until level 3 because they don't get Weapon Finesse on their Bonus Feat list, Flurry of Blows suffers enormously from the lack of any accuracy bonus, they lack any inbuilt way to actually apply the multi-attack advantages reliably, their per-hit damage sucks unless they stack reams of very specific items, Wholeness of Body has no ability score scaling making it just render Monk virtually a d12 class rather than really answering Con investment.

On very nearly every single front, Monks get things too weak, too late, or both. But they get all the kinds of things you need so thoroughly that they have no empty levels, so Wizards of the Coast never unbuggered the class because they didn't quite understand that Monk was simply underpowered. The right things, but not enough of them. Of course, then you plug in some choice low-HD monsters and Monks can take off to the moon on an utter pittance of Natural Armor and racial ability scores...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yes, they do need some fixes. They are sorely lacking for damage support in their items, forcing them into a lot of Strength investment, and the Wisdom to AC does not have an up-front component substituting the armor you're not allowed to wear so it needs to be at least 16 to even chance matching the Light Armor characters, presuming you have a pile of Dexterity, and you can't take Weapon Finesse at 1st level because you have less than full BAB.

A TWF Fighter would in fact have more damage, because there are more ways to stack damage on actual Light and One-Handed weapons than on Unarmed Strikes, because of special materials and Fighter-specific feats and quantities of feats the Monk doesn't get because the roots of the trees aren't in their extremely limited list and more attacks than the Monk after 6th level with the BAB and narrower ability focus to afford the penalty and TWF feats.

Monks have a whole lot of "not quite there" numbers, basically. They have the mechanics to be good, to be utterly monstrous even, but those mechanics don't have enough numbers attached to them. The AC bonus doesn't have any flat value to reduce the Wisdom needed to match Light Armor to one sensible at 1st level, they can't be Dex-based until level 3 because they don't get Weapon Finesse on their Bonus Feat list, Flurry of Blows suffers enormously from the lack of any accuracy bonus, they lack any inbuilt way to actually apply the multi-attack advantages reliably, their per-hit damage sucks unless they stack reams of very specific items, Wholeness of Body has no ability score scaling making it just render Monk virtually a d12 class rather than really answering Con investment.

On very nearly every single front, Monks get things too weak, too late, or both. But they get all the kinds of things you need so thoroughly that they have no empty levels, so Wizards of the Coast never unbuggered the class because they didn't quite understand that Monk was simply underpowered. The right things, but not enough of them. Of course, then you plug in some choice low-HD monsters and Monks can take off to the moon on an utter pittance of Natural Armor and racial ability scores...There's also no synergy in class abilities, a lot of the abilities they get are WAY behind the curve on what's expected on most levels (such as having the capstone be "like a 1st level spell, but much worse," or "like the phantasmal killer that the wizard got several levels ago, but with much worse targeting, and only 1/week instead of several times per day"; the class is rife with these), and nothing they get covers anything that's required to function at higher levels (such as movement options, proper immunities, etc). Plus, what they get is largely the equivalent of a large number of very cheap magic items, and they don't stack with said magic items. For instance, their movement speed boost is an enhancement bonus, which hardly stacks with anything that boosts speed: haste, as the most widely available example.

There are more (a lot more), but those are the main ones, I think.

[bekeleven]

There are more (a lot more), but those are the main ones, I think.

See also, Monkday Guide to Monks (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?338524)

[Morphic tide]

See also, Monkday Guide to Monks (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?338524)
That's somewhat overstating the disadvantages by making the comparison serious optimization tools like Spirit Lion Totem and Shock Trooper for the utterly baseline Monk. And also there's lots of well-respected 3/4ths BAB frontliners. They just all have sizable per-hit bonuses, accuracy boosters, or One Big Hit mechanics. Literally just give Monk an enhancement progression mirroring Soulknife to replace Ki Strike and the bulk of the damage issue vanishes in a puff of WBL-mancy.

I'm not kidding about monster Monks taking off to the moon. Natural Armor stacks and brings them back in line, if not put them at a huge advantage over standard races, and many, many monsters have wonderfully broad ability scores. It's to the point where a Bugbear Monk, complete with the +1 LA, is probably better than a Human because the broad ability scores and Natural Armor let you meet the standard race benchmarks on a pittance. On 32 point-buy, you can get four 14s and a 15.

Very few classes have any use for this, and you're at -2 to the hyper-focused characters. Except as a Bugbear, that's 19 Str, 16 Dex, 16 Con, 14 Int, 14 Wis, and 8 Cha, and as a Monk that gives you AC 18 and the same health as most Fighters (how many put more than 14 in Con through the mess of Dex and Int prerequisites and anchor of "needing" 18 Strength, again?). You're a not-worthless beater with no ACP on a quite solid AC and respectable skill capacity. Your comparative losses to a default Monk are limited, being technically -1 BAB probably offset by Strength advantage for a huge breadth of value that brings your durability back in line, sets you up well for shrugging at many enemy threats when Wisdom items arrive, and you're well equipped to be a very safe scout.

And the Bugbear is a rather poor example! There's loads of monsters that are only unworkable because of WotC's ridiculousness in assigning LA values, and a few that are horrifying to give Monk levels as NPCs that don't need to care about ECL. Elite Array Salamanders with Wis to AC and extra attacks gets remarkably silly, for example.

Also, I've run the numbers on Vow of Poverty. It's bad bonuses, not low bonuses. At a very considerable low ball, directly copying Vow of Poverty at 20, disregarding the DR 5/Evil and Exalted feats, is 677,100 GP. This is losing a good chunk over level 20 WBL, but then you only dock 18k GP for comparing to the now-much-lower level 19 WBL. You can get the bonuses more efficiently, sure, but in terms of raw numeric value you're often technically ahead. The problem is that you have no way to get the all-important utility functions and the exact wording is completely insane in its strictness.

[Darg]

Yes, they do need some fixes. They are sorely lacking for damage support in their items, forcing them into a lot of Strength investment, and the Wisdom to AC does not have an up-front component substituting the armor you're not allowed to wear so it needs to be at least 16 to even chance matching the Light Armor characters, presuming you have a pile of Dexterity, and you can't take Weapon Finesse at 1st level because you have less than full BAB.

Think for a moment that every non-precision type damage dealing class needs strength. Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Monk. While the first 4 classes can wear armor, nothing stops a Monk from benefiting from a generous wizard's Mage Armor. Using the elite array would get you 17-18 AC. The only time I would take weapon finesse is if I multiclass rogue and can make up the damage that way.


A TWF Fighter would in fact have more damage, because there are more ways to stack damage on actual Light and One-Handed weapons than on Unarmed Strikes, because of special materials and Fighter-specific feats and quantities of feats the Monk doesn't get because the roots of the trees aren't in their extremely limited list and more attacks than the Monk after 6th level with the BAB and narrower ability focus to afford the penalty and TWF feats.

You make unarmed strikes with gauntlets and gauntlets can be enhanced. Most people tend to ignore fighter only feats even when taking fighter. As for bonus feats, There isn't a lot in core to take advantage of here and using non-core books give monks quite a few amazing feats themselves that a fighter wouldn't take. At level 6, a fighter with ITWF will be making attacks at +4/+4/-1/-1 while a monk can make the attacks at +3/+3 or +1/+1/+1 if TWF. Instead of ITWF, a Monk at level 6 can take INA. An enlarged fighter would do 1d10/1d8/1d10/1d8 (5.5/4.5 avg) weapon damage while an enlarged monk would be doing 3d6/3d6(/3d6) (10.5 avg) [not bad when you compare it to a rogue's 3d6 sneak attacks at a worse attack bonus.]


Monks have a whole lot of "not quite there" numbers, basically. They have the mechanics to be good, to be utterly monstrous even, but those mechanics don't have enough numbers attached to them. The AC bonus doesn't have any flat value to reduce the Wisdom needed to match Light Armor to one sensible at 1st level, they can't be Dex-based until level 3 because they don't get Weapon Finesse on their Bonus Feat list, Flurry of Blows suffers enormously from the lack of any accuracy bonus, they lack any inbuilt way to actually apply the multi-attack advantages reliably, their per-hit damage sucks unless they stack reams of very specific items, Wholeness of Body has no ability score scaling making it just render Monk virtually a d12 class rather than really answering Con investment.

There are plenty of ways to increase the odds of hitting the target. How does a rogue do it? I already addressed armor and by 6th you shouldn't need to bum off anyone. Custom per day mage armor items are a lot cheaper than bracers of armor. Wholeness of body is free health, I'll take it.


On very nearly every single front, Monks get things too weak, too late, or both. But they get all the kinds of things you need so thoroughly that they have no empty levels, so Wizards of the Coast never unbuggered the class because they didn't quite understand that Monk was simply underpowered. The right things, but not enough of them. Of course, then you plug in some choice low-HD monsters and Monks can take off to the moon on an utter pittance of Natural Armor and racial ability scores...

I feel that every one looks at a monk and expects them to compete at a balanced level with every option in every book. That's just not how it works with any class. Nor do martials compete favorably with high level genius tier 1 spellcasters.


That's somewhat overstating the disadvantages by making the comparison serious optimization tools like Spirit Lion Totem and Shock Trooper for the utterly baseline Monk. And also there's lots of well-respected 3/4ths BAB frontliners. They just all have sizable per-hit bonuses, accuracy boosters, or One Big Hit mechanics. Literally just give Monk an enhancement progression mirroring Soulknife to replace Ki Strike and the bulk of the damage issue vanishes in a puff of WBL-mancy.

Gauntlets. Also, Lion Tribe Warrior (Spirit Lion Totem is unbalanced and we all know it), Flying Kick, Unbalancing Strike, Mantis Leap, Snap Kick, Paralyzing Fists, and other feats that do amazing things for monks.

Edit: I think people on these boards over exaggerate how useful shock trooper is. Sure you can do a ton of damage, but you are taking a negative in AC while you do it. If you take a -6 you just lost 8 AC and your soft cover for a total of 12. That is a huge amount of AC to just up and lose with a back line of archers itching to turn you into a pincushion.

[Rhyltran]

I also want to point out earlier in the thread someone made mention that monk weapons fall off fast compared to unarmed strikes. While this is true in most cases; the scorpion kama does exist.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I also want to point out earlier in the thread someone made mention that monk weapons fall off fast compared to unarmed strikes. While this is true in most cases; the scorpion kama does exist.Even better if you add morphing and sizing to it, so everything has monk unarmed strike base damage. I mean, a poison ring normally only deals 1 damage + whatever poison you apply (if any) on a touch attack, but if you're dealing unarmed strike damage, instead...

Also, you can sneak attack with it, as well.

[Psyren]

Honestly just use Unchained Monk or Brawler. The 3e monk is 2 decades old at this point and the problems have been discussed ad nauseam.

As far as monk weapons falling off, PF has the Ascetic Strike feat for that, but between Handwraps and the cheaper AoMF sticking with your fists is fine too.

[Rhyltran]

Even better if you add morphing and sizing to it, so everything has monk unarmed strike base damage. I mean, a poison ring normally only deals 1 damage + whatever poison you apply (if any) on a touch attack, but if you're dealing unarmed strike damage, instead...

Also, you can sneak attack with it, as well.

Yeah, that's why the Scorpion Kama is one of my pet magical items. It is pretty dang neat!

As for psyren.. yeah personally we combine both 3.5 with Pathfinder for the whole best of both worlds. This provides even more flexibility and options. Unfortunately some people are adverse to mixing the two systems even though it is what they used as their marketing.

[liquidformat]

Otherwise, take at most four levels of Monk for Ki Strike (or just use Metaphysical Claw lol) and then Monastic Training (Psychic Warrior) into Tashalatora. You keep Unarmed Strike, AC bonus, and Flurry of Blows scaling for the price of two feats, with the first of them being able to replace any of your Bonus Feats (as such, I suggest Monk 2 to keep Improved Grapple or Combat Reflexes), and get access to the PsyWar wonders, particularly Expansion and Psionic Lion's Charge, but also eventually Truevenom.

Psionic Lion's Charge is a heinous Power on a full-bore Tashalatora, by the way. Take the TWF line (you can fit the feats with PsyWar bonuses) and use one of the Light Monk weapons, then you have your Unarmed Strikes as your primary weapon, a Kama as your TWF off-hand weapon (Trip does piggyback off a lot of Grapple optimization, which is a relatively mild additional investment), can use one of the two claws from Claws of the Beast as well as the Bite from Bite of the Wolf, and get Unarmed Strike attacks from the Flurry. Then eventually get to cackle madly with Form of Doom's four tentacles.

Every single one of these attacks gets +1 damage for each power point over the minimum of 3 you spend. With the ill-advised full burn, that's ML-3 extra damage per hit before charge multipliers. And Practiced Manifester lets you make more high-value dips like Swordsage for Tiger Claw for even more attacks and Desert Wind for even more per-hit damage and Assassin's Stance for 2d6 Sneak Attack for Craven.
I mean by the time you are taking 4 levels of monk, I would question whether or not taking war mind is a better choice than psychic warrior.

If you are looking at redesigning the monk there are three paths that seem reasonable.

The first is giving monk full bab and either a small number of maneuvers and stances or small psionic power progression.
The other is to keep medium bab and do a psionic power progression closer to psywar's maybe delaying hitting 6th level powers to level 16 or 18.
The final is doing a full initiator monk but unarmed swordsage is already a thing so I don't think this one is as great of an option...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yeah, that's why the Scorpion Kama is one of my pet magical items. It is pretty dang neat!I had an idea. You can use a morphing/sizing scorpion kama to turn your unarmed strike into an AoE attack.

Go look up the sand blaster in the MMIII, p58. It normally deals a mere 1d8 damage when Large size, but if it's got the scorpion kama enhancement...

Also, note that your unarmed strike damage includes your Strength score, so add that into the AoE, as well, along with whatever other damage bonuses you've got.

And an infinite ammo enhancement would allow you to make full attacks with it, as well.

[ShurikVch]

FWIW, Diamond Warrior (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020927b), Mindknight (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20020819a), and Truth Seeker (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020623c) are kinda Monk-like (unarmed damage, armor restrictions, etc)

[Morphic tide]

I mean by the time you are taking 4 levels of monk, I would question whether or not taking war mind is a better choice than psychic warrior.

If you are looking at redesigning the monk there are three paths that seem reasonable.

The first is giving monk full bab and either a small number of maneuvers and stances or small psionic power progression.
The other is to keep medium bab and do a psionic power progression closer to psywar's maybe delaying hitting 6th level powers to level 16 or 18.
The final is doing a full initiator monk but unarmed swordsage is already a thing so I don't think this one is as great of an option...

The general theme of "unbugger existing abilities" is a perfectly valid path, since they are overwhelmingly the right kinds of abilities, just with insufficient numbers and inadequate timing. Trading out the existing Fast Movement and Slow Fall for a derivative of Elocator's Scorn Earth that scales up into actual flight, for example. Turning Flurry of Blows into a Swift Action, letting you split your attacks. Spring Attack as a 6th level Bonus Feat, Weapon Finesse at 1st, there's a lot of feats with annoying prerequisites that'd go well with Monk for one reason or another. Think I already mentioned making Ki Strike into a Mind Blade style progression, as well.

[Darg]

The general theme of "unbugger existing abilities" is a perfectly valid path, since they are overwhelmingly the right kinds of abilities, just with insufficient numbers and inadequate timing. Trading out the existing Fast Movement and Slow Fall for a derivative of Elocator's Scorn Earth that scales up into actual flight, for example. Turning Flurry of Blows into a Swift Action, letting you split your attacks. Spring Attack as a 6th level Bonus Feat, Weapon Finesse at 1st, there's a lot of feats with annoying prerequisites that'd go well with Monk for one reason or another. Think I already mentioned making Ki Strike into a Mind Blade style progression, as well.

Flurry of blows competes with TWF and it does that extremely well by removing the penalty and even giving you ITWF with full BAB with the second attack at 11. Plus it stacks with TWF if you want (and you get full strength bonus with the off hand attack).

I'm trying to figure out what the "inadequate numbers" are. I've also shown how they can compete with rogue damage using only core abilities and feats; they also get a resource that rogues would love called stunning fist at first level. I've pointed out how the armor issue can be address within a party and in a similar way flight can be attained using custom magic items. Monks can also enhance their UAS by using gauntlets.

The things I do agree with are that the monk bonus feat selection is too limited and the nerf to monk speed bonus in the conversion from 3.0 to 3.5 being an enhancement bonus. I don't normally allow or see dragon material at my tables, but obvious RAI martial monk and a return to untyped speed bonus are things that I personally would allow. Disarm or trip are things that a monk would probably never do so we allow a loose reading of the bonus feats entry and let them pick feats of a lower level as an option.

I just don't see the issue other than spellcasters being better than martial only classes and ToB martial adepts being better than the PHB martial classes.

[Vaern]

Flurry of blows competes with TWF and it does that extremely well by removing the penalty and even giving you ITWF with full BAB with the second attack at 11. Plus it stacks with TWF if you want (and you get full strength bonus with the off hand attack).
If a monk were to invest in the full TWF chain his attack sequence would look like:
+13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3
A fighter who has invested in TWF ends up with:
+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3
The monk is at a -5 penalty on his first two attacks compared to the fighter, and only gains a single attack at his lowest attack bonus in return.
Flurry's not a bad ability, but the two free bonus attacks it grants are kind of lackluster when paired with the fact that the monk loses an attack to reduced BAB in the long run. And the fact that the extra attacks don't impose a penalty on your attack rolls after a certain level is also kind of just compensation for the fact that the monk is already attacking with an innate penalty by nature of being a martial class without full BAB.
It's kind of like how the Blood Magus gains the ability to deal damage to himself in order to increase a spell's caster level by 1, but then loses 2 levels of spellcasting progression by level 10. It's a neat ability. The effect looks good in a vacuum. But in the context of the class it's given to, the ability is kind of just a band-aid trying to fix a drawback that's built into a class which probably didn't need to be there to begin with.

[Morphic tide]

Flurry of blows competes with TWF and it does that extremely well by removing the penalty and even giving you ITWF with full BAB with the second attack at 11. Plus it stacks with TWF if you want (and you get full strength bonus with the off hand attack).
Fighter and Ranger spec'd for TWF have more attacks and higher accuracy, because Flurry of Blows is designed against being at +1 over Full BAB iteratives. And it has the same penalty as feat'd TWF, that stacks, so a Monk TWF is at 3/4ths BAB and -4 early enough on with just one more attack being made than the Ranger or Fighter. And Flurry does not use the extra Strength for two-handed weapons, which causes it to be of very limited use to Quarterstaff setups.

And, as listed out by Vaern, the Monk may have one more attack, but their first two are dramatically less accurate and their one extra attack has pathetic accuracy. Ironically, non-TWF Flurries are actually better, because you then have three +15 attacks to have solid odds of hitting and can use a Quarterstaff for gobs more per-hit damage, and getting two extra attacks at the second iterative's bonus has advantages since the two +15 attacks skew slightly higher for average damage. Provided, of course, one kindly leaves out the Charge modifier stacking.

With regard to Gauntlets as workaround to Enhancements, you'll have to pay for two if you want to go TWF. And your comparison point is with an external source of Enlarge Person; The Rogue's able to benefit considerably more from a lot of buff spells, particularly given they can TWF or Multishot with Sneak Attack on each hit. How are you catching up with a Rogue spitting 4d6 three times in a round by level 7?


I'm trying to figure out what the "inadequate numbers" are. I've also shown how they can compete with rogue damage using only core abilities and feats; they also get a resource that rogues would love called stunning fist at first level. I've pointed out how the armor issue can be address within a party and in a similar way flight can be attained using custom magic items. Monks can also enhance their UAS by using gauntlets.

As you mentioned, the Monk needs Mage Armor to properly compete with front-line AC. Low-level spellcasters don't really have the slots to spare to just make a second-rate damage dealer keep pace with regular party member AC. As-is, the Monk has to have 18 Wis to match Light Armor themselves. A Rogue can, if they're interested, fairly easily have AC 17. A Monk would have to annihilate their damage and HP for that. Realistically, a Monk's only getting AC 15, from 14 Dex/16 Wis, and that's assuming 32 point-buy being invested in 16 Strength and 14 Constitution.

To make the biggest cause perfectly clear: -5 BAB turns into -10 damage per hit for a two-hander like a Quarterstaff. At the most basic level. You can bump this base to +3 damage per -1 by a variety of methods, and a 4x Charge multiplier is almost guaranteed for a mounted combatant, so each -1 Power Attack turns into +12 damage, making you down sixty damage per attack at the same accuracy benchmarks. On top of an extra half your Strength bonus receiving the Charge modifier that Flurry excludes.

And every other accuracy loss compounds this, so low Monk levels Flurry and just -2 Strength in such high-output conditions turns into -36 damage. Per attack. The only real Ubercharge component here is the Pounce to make speaking of multiple attacks relevant, -1 for +12 is actually fully intended Lancer behavior! 4x is literally called out by the Complete Warrior Cavalier's uses/day ability and there's a weapon enhancement that closes the gap to make it at-will, doing that on a Full Attack is what's unintended. One can easily have this x4 before level 9, when the Monk finishes losing Flurry penalties, in which case it's at least -24 damage per hit.

Before you ask, yes Mounted Chargers break the game. Damage multipliers have a way of doing that. Even Core-only, you can have -1 for +6 by all of 2nd level with a Human Fighter. You only need four feats for it, after all: Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, and Power Attack, and there's only one rank of Ride required. For some God-forsaken reason. You don't really need Pounce as a Lancer, you just kinda obliterate 80% or more of level-appropriate enemies in the first hit.

(this is all assuming my instinct that Charge multipliers affect Power Attack damage is correct. It might not be, but I'm pretty sure you need that to hit the four-digit damage routines)

[Darg]

If a monk were to invest in the full TWF chain his attack sequence would look like:
+13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3
A fighter who has invested in TWF ends up with:
+18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3
The monk is at a -5 penalty on his first two attacks compared to the fighter, and only gains a single attack at his lowest attack bonus in return.
Flurry's not a bad ability, but the two free bonus attacks it grants are kind of lackluster when paired with the fact that the monk loses an attack to reduced BAB in the long run. And the fact that the extra attacks don't impose a penalty on your attack rolls after a certain level is also kind of just compensation for the fact that the monk is already attacking with an innate penalty by nature of being a martial class without full BAB.
It's kind of like how the Blood Magus gains the ability to deal damage to himself in order to increase a spell's caster level by 1, but then loses 2 levels of spellcasting progression by level 10. It's a neat ability. The effect looks good in a vacuum. But in the context of the class it's given to, the ability is kind of just a band-aid trying to fix a drawback that's built into a class which probably didn't need to be there to begin with.

Looking at it in a vacuum looks bad doesn't it. The fighter's base damage with each attack would probably be 2d6/1d8 while the monk would have 6d8 damage per attack. Honestly, it would never be worth it for the monk to do more than the TWF feat. Gloves of the Balanced Hand would be much more cost efficient than spending a feat at level 9. If the monk doesn't TWF then the Attack routine looks like +15/+15/+15/+10/+5 (6d8/6d8/6d8/6d8/6d8) vs the (2d6/1d8/2d6/1d8/2d6/1d8/2d6). Much more comparable yes? And remember that a monk gets full strength bonus on any off hand UAS attacks.


Fighter and Ranger spec'd for TWF have more attacks and higher accuracy, because Flurry of Blows is designed against being at +1 over Full BAB iteratives. And it has the same penalty as feat'd TWF, that stacks, so a Monk TWF is at 3/4ths BAB and -4 early enough on with just one more attack being made than the Ranger or Fighter. And Flurry does not use the extra Strength for two-handed weapons, which causes it to be of very limited use to Quarterstaff setups.

A Monk does so much more damage per attack though and the 5 BAB difference only happens at higher levels. At level 4 it's only a difference of 1. 8 is 2. 12 is 3. If a level 17 fighter takes -5 for PA to match the monk being enlarged and 29 str it would be doing 33.5 avg damage per attack with a greatsword. The enlarged monk would be doing 36 avg damage with a monk's belt and the same strength.


And, as listed out by Vaern, the Monk may have one more attack, but their first two are dramatically less accurate and their one extra attack has pathetic accuracy. Ironically, non-TWF Flurries are actually better, because you then have three +15 attacks to have solid odds of hitting and can use a Quarterstaff for gobs more per-hit damage, and getting two extra attacks at the second iterative's bonus has advantages since the two +15 attacks skew slightly higher for average damage. Provided, of course, one kindly leaves out the Charge modifier stacking.

Personally, I think Snap Kick is a better investment than TWF, but Gloves of the Balanced hand do make TWF affordable. Charge modifiers are sticky business.


With regard to Gauntlets as workaround to Enhancements, you'll have to pay for two if you want to go TWF. And your comparison point is with an external source of Enlarge Person; The Rogue's able to benefit considerably more from a lot of buff spells, particularly given they can TWF or Multishot with Sneak Attack on each hit. How are you catching up with a Rogue spitting 4d6 three times in a round by level 7?

Rogue doesn't get an iterative until level 8 like other 3/4 BAB classes and they have a -2 penalty for TWF while the monk has a -1 for FoB. Enlarge Person + Improved Natural Attack is one option to get 3d6 base damage per attack at 8th (This doesn't have restrictions on who gets dealt damage.) Technically by RAW, you only need one gauntlet to benefit all your UAS. Because of that I let them be enhanced together to get a matching pair, but sometimes you want them made separately to benefit from the different materials.


As you mentioned, the Monk needs Mage Armor to properly compete with front-line AC. Low-level spellcasters don't really have the slots to spare to just make a second-rate damage dealer keep pace with regular party member AC. As-is, the Monk has to have 18 Wis to match Light Armor themselves. A Rogue can, if they're interested, fairly easily have AC 17. A Monk would have to annihilate their damage and HP for that. Realistically, a Monk's only getting AC 15, from 14 Dex/16 Wis, and that's assuming 32 point-buy being invested in 16 Strength and 14 Constitution.

And here I am thinking that the elite array was a decent enough. What else is that spellcaster going to spend their slot on? Color Spray where they have to be within a 5ft step of a reach weapon? Why not keep that meat shield alive instead?


To make the biggest cause perfectly clear: -5 BAB turns into -10 damage per hit for a two-hander like a Quarterstaff. At the most basic level. You can bump this base to +3 damage per -1 by a variety of methods, and a 4x Charge multiplier is almost guaranteed for a mounted combatant, so each -1 Power Attack turns into +12 damage, making you down sixty damage per attack at the same accuracy benchmarks. On top of an extra half your Strength bonus receiving the Charge modifier that Flurry excludes.

And every other accuracy loss compounds this, so low Monk levels Flurry and just -2 Strength in such high-output conditions turns into -36 damage. Per attack. The only real Ubercharge component here is the Pounce to make speaking of multiple attacks relevant, -1 for +12 is actually fully intended Lancer behavior! 4x is literally called out by the Complete Warrior Cavalier's uses/day ability and there's a weapon enhancement that closes the gap to make it at-will, doing that on a Full Attack is what's unintended. One can easily have this x4 before level 9, when the Monk finishes losing Flurry penalties, in which case it's at least -24 damage per hit.

Before you ask, yes Mounted Chargers break the game. Damage multipliers have a way of doing that. Even Core-only, you can have -1 for +6 by all of 2nd level with a Human Fighter. You only need four feats for it, after all: Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, and Power Attack, and there's only one rank of Ride required. For some God-forsaken reason. You don't really need Pounce as a Lancer, you just kinda obliterate 80% or more of level-appropriate enemies in the first hit.

(this is all assuming my instinct that Charge multipliers affect Power Attack damage is correct. It might not be, but I'm pretty sure you need that to hit the four-digit damage routines)

Power attack is +2 per -1 with 2h weapons. A valorous lance makes this +6 on a mounted charge. You can't Leap attack on a mount because you can't use the jump skill while mounted. Spirited Charge does increase it to x4 or x5 with the cavalier's ability. Pounce isn't usable on a mount as you can't full attack on a mount, nor is a cavalier's Full Mounted Attack usable on foot. A monk isn't brought along for mounted combat, go figure. If we are likely to be doing a lot of mounted combat I would opt to use the decisive strike ACF from PHBII as it's a full round action instead of a full attack and combos extremely nicely with Snap Kick. Add in some sandals and valorous gauntlet we can get it to x4 at a later date than the fighter. Then again, the fighter isn't going to be as effective in it's low level non-mounted combat by taking all those feats.

[Morphic tide]

Looking at it in a vacuum looks bad doesn't it. The fighter's base damage with each attack would probably be 2d6/1d8 while the monk would have 6d8 damage per attack. Honestly, it would never be worth it for the monk to do more than the TWF feat. Gloves of the Balanced Hand would be much more cost efficient than spending a feat at level 9. If the monk doesn't TWF then the Attack routine looks like +15/+15/+15/+10/+5 (6d8/6d8/6d8/6d8/6d8) vs the (2d6/1d8/2d6/1d8/2d6/1d8/2d6). Much more comparable yes? And remember that a monk gets full strength bonus on any off hand UAS attacks.
Fighter 20 has the feats to be using Large (Monkey Grip) Greater Weapon Specialization Improved Critical Kaorti Resin Kukris. While still being at Greater Two Weapon Fighting. 30% of the time, they're rolling to deal 4d6+16+2xStr base damage, with a selection of +2 qualities that add 1d6+3d10 each, and they have no less than 30% chance to hit with their 1d6+4+1/2 Str basic damage, alongside +2 on attack rolls. Oh, and that's before Enlarge Person, which turns the 4d6 into 4d8. Monk does not remotely have the means to crit-fish like that.


A Monk does so much more damage per attack though and the 5 BAB difference only happens at higher levels. At level 4 it's only a difference of 1. 8 is 2. 12 is 3. If a level 17 fighter takes -5 for PA to match the monk being enlarged and 29 str it would be doing 33.5 avg damage per attack with a greatsword. The enlarged monk would be doing 36 avg damage with a monk's belt and the same strength.
But how is the Monk getting the same Strength? The Fighter really only cares about Strength, Constitution, and maybe Dexterity or Intelligence for feat prerequisite reasons. The Monk actively uses Strength, Dexterity, and Wisdom, and requires Constitution for the same reason. Sure, if you're using arrays that ends up happening, but how often do you see talk of arrays? They force everyone into the low, wide scores the Monk stands out as bad for needing.

And, of course, the Monk needs to pump Wisdom and Dexterity via items for their AC to keep up with Heavy Armor, whereas the Fighter does not and can spend this on better weapon enhancements and having Armor enhancements, like an Animated Shield, which the Monk is specifically disallowed as you're still "wielding" an Animated Shield.


Rogue doesn't get an iterative until level 8 like other 3/4 BAB classes and they have a -2 penalty for TWF while the monk has a -1 for FoB. Enlarge Person + Improved Natural Attack is one option to get 3d6 base damage per attack at 8th (This doesn't have restrictions on who gets dealt damage.) Technically by RAW, you only need one gauntlet to benefit all your UAS. Because of that I let them be enhanced together to get a matching pair, but sometimes you want them made separately to benefit from the different materials.
Okay, so I was off by one on the iterative breakpoint. Still, the Monk's level 8 routine, when Enlarged, is +5/+5/+0 with 2d8+Str damage, average 9 on the roll. The Rogue is attacking against a Flatfooted target with two 5d6+Str attacks, one at +4 and one at -1, and a 1d4+4d6+1/2 Str attack. The Rogue has -1 to the roll, with +14 damage from Sneak Attack alone, assuming both are in scenarios of the party desperately establishing flanks or Flatfooted.


And here I am thinking that the elite array was a decent enough. What else is that spellcaster going to spend their slot on? Color Spray where they have to be within a 5ft step of a reach weapon? Why not keep that meat shield alive instead?
Mage Armor or Reduce Person on themselves, for one, True Striking their Crossbow for another (it's not exactly the worst choice at 1st-3rd), and the 10 ft. reach enemy wants to be positioned to hit the front line melees. They'd have to expose themselves to Attacks of Opportunity, which are a Big Deal at these levels, and deprive themselves any way to retaliate against the melee characters, to punish the Wizard all of 15 ft. away.


Power attack is +2 per -1 with 2h weapons. A valorous lance makes this +6 on a mounted charge. You can't Leap attack on a mount because you can't use the jump skill while mounted. Spirited Charge does increase it to x4 or x5 with the cavalier's ability. Pounce isn't usable on a mount as you can't full attack on a mount
...No, Spirited Charge+Lance gives you the +6. Because Spirited Charge+Lance is 3x. You don't need Valorous, you have a feat to go with the weapon, the Cavalier's ability is 3x replacing the 2x of Spirited Charge. Leap Attack is not the only option, we also have Favored Power Attack with a Ranger dip, Cobalt Power gives some fill in the matter for all it's Essentia limited, and I'm pretty sure there's magic item properties to squeeze scattered around somewhere. And, of course, foot charging can reach 4x, it's just harder. And involves fishing for 3.0 content.

Furthermore, you can Full Attack while mounted, you're only disallowed to Full Attack if your mount has moved more than 5 ft. Think you're actually allowed to Full Attack then have the mount move. Pounce does not specify unmounted, and mounting does not wholly exclude Full Attacks, therefore the specific allowance of Full Attacking after a Charge via Pounce supersedes the disallowance of Full Attacking after moving more than 5 ft, just the same as it supersedes the disallowance of Full Attacking in normal unmounted Charges.

Also, there is no sensible reason, period, to take more than 11 Monk levels. Because the remaining 9 levels can be handled by Superior Unarmed Strike and Monk's Belt, and the scaling ends at Monk 20.

[Darg]

Fighter 20 has the feats to be using Large (Monkey Grip) Greater Weapon Specialization Improved Critical Kaorti Resin Kukris. While still being at Greater Two Weapon Fighting. 30% of the time, they're rolling to deal 4d6+16+2xStr base damage, with a selection of +2 qualities that add 1d6+3d10 each, and they have no less than 30% chance to hit with their 1d6+4+1/2 Str basic damage, alongside +2 on attack rolls. Oh, and that's before Enlarge Person, which turns the 4d6 into 4d8. Monk does not remotely have the means to crit-fish like that.

Kaorti Resin is a questionable material. RAW, nothing gives them the threat range of the original weapon. In fact, it even names them. Instead of a kaorti resin kukri, it would be a ribbon kukri; unlike any other material. Kukris start at 1d4 damage. Monkey grip is a waste of a feat on light weapons. It's effect only works on weapons one size larger than you. So it would allow you to wield a large kukri as a light weapon... Strong Arm bracers would allow you to do what you are trying to do without the TWF penalty for using a large one handed weapon in the off hand and the monkey grip penalty.


But how is the Monk getting the same Strength? The Fighter really only cares about Strength, Constitution, and maybe Dexterity or Intelligence for feat prerequisite reasons. The Monk actively uses Strength, Dexterity, and Wisdom, and requires Constitution for the same reason. Sure, if you're using arrays that ends up happening, but how often do you see talk of arrays? They force everyone into the low, wide scores the Monk stands out as bad for needing.

You ask this, but don't provide the strength you want me to compare to. If I use the elite array, I'll probably go 14/13/12/10/15/8 because I want the Unbalancing Strike feat. If I do a more core game I'll swap str and wis. 32 point buy gets me 16/14/14/12/14/8 because I prefer being all-rounded and play to my ability scores, but if I am focusing completely on damage 18 str is not hard to get with 18/12/14/8/14/8. At level 20 you have +5 nat armor +5 deflection +4 from dex (gloves of dexterity) +4 from wis +4 from monk ac +8 from harness of armor for 40 AC (38 with greater mage armor if you can't use armor harness), but you can also get another +10 if your friendly party druid wants to grant you his owl's insight.


And, of course, the Monk needs to pump Wisdom and Dexterity via items for their AC to keep up with Heavy Armor, whereas the Fighter does not and can spend this on better weapon enhancements and having Armor enhancements, like an Animated Shield, which the Monk is specifically disallowed as you're still "wielding" an Animated Shield.

I'm not seeing a problem. The fighter pays for the amulet and ring just the same, minimum +7 bonus for shield and minimum +5 for armor. Armor has a max dex bonus.


Okay, so I was off by one on the iterative breakpoint. Still, the Monk's level 8 routine, when Enlarged, is +5/+5/+0 with 2d8+Str damage, average 9 on the roll. The Rogue is attacking against a Flatfooted target with two 5d6+Str attacks, one at +4 and one at -1, and a 1d4+4d6+1/2 Str attack. The Rogue has -1 to the roll, with +14 damage from Sneak Attack alone, assuming both are in scenarios of the party desperately establishing flanks or Flatfooted.

Improved natural attack increases the damage to 3d6 which can be doubled/tripled on a charge. This applies all the time. The rogue must flank or deny the target their dex bonus. An easy way to do this is for the monk to stun the rogue's target. Thereby initiating teamwork to take down enemies without exposing someone to the loss of soft cover.


Mage Armor or Reduce Person on themselves, for one, True Striking their Crossbow for another (it's not exactly the worst choice at 1st-3rd), and the 10 ft. reach enemy wants to be positioned to hit the front line melees. They'd have to expose themselves to Attacks of Opportunity, which are a Big Deal at these levels, and deprive themselves any way to retaliate against the melee characters, to punish the Wizard all of 15 ft. away.

Teamwork is teamwork. The rules also allow you to hold the charge on a touch spell and touch up to 6 adjacent friends with a full round action. 15ft +5ft step = no AoO. There is also a good chance of allies being in the way.


...No, Spirited Charge+Lance gives you the +6. Because Spirited Charge+Lance is 3x. You don't need Valorous, you have a feat to go with the weapon, the Cavalier's ability is 3x replacing the 2x of Spirited Charge. Leap Attack is not the only option, we also have Favored Power Attack with a Ranger dip, Cobalt Power gives some fill in the matter for all it's Essentia limited, and I'm pretty sure there's magic item properties to squeeze scattered around somewhere. And, of course, foot charging can reach 4x, it's just harder. And involves fishing for 3.0 content.

Furthermore, you can Full Attack while mounted, you're only disallowed to Full Attack if your mount has moved more than 5 ft. Think you're actually allowed to Full Attack then have the mount move. Pounce does not specify unmounted, and mounting does not wholly exclude Full Attacks, therefore the specific allowance of Full Attacking after a Charge via Pounce supersedes the disallowance of Full Attacking after moving more than 5 ft, just the same as it supersedes the disallowance of Full Attacking in normal unmounted Charges.

Also, there is no sensible reason, period, to take more than 11 Monk levels. Because the remaining 9 levels can be handled by Superior Unarmed Strike and Monk's Belt, and the scaling ends at Monk 20.


Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.

If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can’t make a full attack.

You act on the same initiative so everything is happening at the same time. The mounted combat rules are more specific than pounce. It also doesn't fit thematically. How does one pounce while one is on a horse without jumping off first? A Charge attack is a special action. In this case there are 2 rules preventing you from full attacking on a charge on a mount. The charge attack rules and the mounted combat rules. Pounce does not say that you are allowed to make more than one attack if you move more than 5 ft on a mount. So it does not supersede the mounted combat rule.

Nothing here really leaps out at me for monks being left behind by other classes. Yes classes have their niche. So does a monk

I have to agree on going higher than 11/12 monk. If you can multiclass out you should do so at that point. Picking up mantis leap at monk 7 is very useful though (if converted properly, you can make a charge attack with a run action or a double move charge attack/spring attack hybrid full round action. It's much better than the drunken master's stagger as it also let's you add 2x str to damage.) Then again, my custom PRCs do monks justice by actually progressing FoB. Why WotC saw fit to keep that from progressing with monk PRCs is beyond me.