What is an ally, what is an foe?

[Shadowquad]

Hello Playground, I'm in need of your expertise.

The text for the spell Prayer states:

You and your each of your allies gain a +1 luck bonus on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saves, and skill checks, while each of your foes takes a -1 penalty on such rolls.

I believe "allies" and "foes" are not specifically defined game terms. Now of course, in most situations this is self-explanatory and no specific ruling would be needed, but there is situation that happens regularly in an ongoing game of mine:

I have a persistent Prayer effect, and one of my allies is a Frenzied Berserker. Once all enemies are dead, and if their titular Frenzy has been activated, the berserker starts attacking me. My problem is, I'd like them to be considered a foe when they're making attack rolls against me, *but* I'd like them considered an ally when they're making Will saves to snap out of the Frenzy.

So far, my DM has ruled as such:
At the beginning of each turn, I can decide if a given creature is an enemy or an ally for the purpose of my spells, and this choice persists until the beginning of my next turn.

While I find this ruling satisfactory, I wondered if you had any insight as to this particular situation, if you had encountered similar ones, or if you as a DM would have ruled otherwise.
Also, maybe I'm mistaken, and "allies" and "foes" are clearly defined somewhere, and the ruling contradicts RAW.

Thanks in advance!

[daremetoidareyo]

Hello Playground, I'm in need of your expertise.

The text for the spell Prayer states:


I believe "allies" and "foes" are not specifically defined game terms. Now of course, in most situations this is self-explanatory and no specific ruling would be needed, but there is situation that happens regularly in an ongoing game of mine:

I have a persistent Prayer effect, and one of my allies is a Frenzied Berserker. Once all enemies are dead, and if their titular Frenzy has been activated, the berserker starts attacking me. My problem is, I'd like them to be considered a foe when they're makin attack rolls against me, *but* I'd like them considered an ally when they're making Will saves to snap out of the Frenzy.

So far, my DM has ruled as such:
At the beginning of each turn, I can decide if a given creature is an enemy or an ally for the purpose of my spells, and this choice persists until the beginning of my next turn.

While I find this ruling satisfactory, I wondered if you had any insight as to this particular situation, if you had encountered similar ones, or if you as a DM would have ruled otherwise.
Also, maybe I'm mistaken, and "allies" and "foes" are clearly defined somewhere, and the ruling contradicts RAW.

Thanks in advance!

I believe ally is defined in the glossary in the back of the phb

[Tzardok]

This is the first time I thought about that. If I were the DM, I'd propably rule that you decide when casting the spell who counts as ally and who as foe. On the other hand, suppose one side gets suprise reinforcements... hmmm...

Your DM's solution is propably the best version around.

[InvisibleBison]

I think the DM's ruling is consistent with the rules. The PHB glossary defines an ally as "a creature friendly to you." It doesn't have a definition for foe, but by contrast with ally I think we can define a foe as a creature hostile to you. When the frenzied berzerker is attacking you, they're definitely hostile to you; on the other hand, I'd say that when they're making the Will save to end the frenzy they count as your ally, since the save represents their conscious mind trying to regain control of their body to avoid hurting their friends.

[mattie_p]

Your DM is being generous TBH.

Prayer is not an emanation (ie, the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell). Prayer neither requires nor utilizes concentration, which is normally required to adjust an ongoing spell effect.

Instead the default rules apply:


Casting Time (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#castingTime)
You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.

Do new enemies that appear suffer the detrimental effects of prayer even though they were not in the casting area at the time it was cast? Is it an action to designate allies or foes? (Appears No) You can do some crazy shenanigans with this ruling.

[D+1]

Your DM is being exceptionally generous in letting you CHOOSE to change the ally/foe status of anyone affected by your spells every round. Strictly speaking it should not change until the spell ends. Being around a raging barbarian HAS CONSEQUENCES - even if they're an ally. It doesn't matter if he's attacking you, HE IS YOUR ALLY. He could be under the effects of domination or confusion or may have been tricked by an illusion into attacking you and that doesn't make him suddenly NOT your ally, despite the fact that some other effect is causing an ally to harm you or other allies. If you want to not get beaten by your own ally with your own blessings making it easier for him, stay away from him when he runs out of enemies to hack at until his rage is done. That is the price YOU pay for hanging with a barbarian.

[Remuko]

I think the DM's ruling is consistent with the rules. The PHB glossary defines an ally as "a creature friendly to you." It doesn't have a definition for foe, but by contrast with ally I think we can define a foe as a creature hostile to you. When the frenzied berzerker is attacking you, they're definitely hostile to you; on the other hand, I'd say that when they're making the Will save to end the frenzy they count as your ally, since the save represents their conscious mind trying to regain control of their body to avoid hurting their friends.

this is how id rule it. its context dependent. if theyre helping you, theyre an ally, the moment theyre not anymore, theyre a foe.

[Darg]

this is how id rule it. its context dependent. if theyre helping you, theyre an ally, the moment theyre not anymore, theyre a foe.

The problem is that at the time of casting they are an ally. It's like having charm person be cast on a target and then they get polymorphed into a non-humanoid. The effect doesn't stop affecting the target just because their type changed.

I have to agree that the DM is being extremely lenient in the ruling.

[Remuko]

The problem is that at the time of casting they are an ally. It's like having charm person be cast on a target and then they get polymorphed into a non-humanoid. The effect doesn't stop affecting the target just because their type changed.

I have to agree that the DM is being extremely lenient in the ruling.

if you put someone to sleep and then theyre polymorphed into something immune to or unable to sleep are they still asleep? idk if the rules cover it but I'd say not. I'm ruling based on common sense, I never said I was talking about or cared about RAW. if the rules are dumb, ignore the rules.

Someone who starts attacking you is no longer your ally. I don't think its "lenient" at all, it's a common sense ruling.

[Darg]

Immunity =/= target type change. If they become immune to sleep or can't sleep then the effect wouldn't have an effect. The difference is that a charmed human doesn't gain immunity to charm person when polymorphed into a dog. Targets are chosen when the spell comes into effect. Redirecting a spell is by default a move action and prayer doesn't let you redirect the spell once it is cast.

Seriously though, if you have a frenzied berserker, have the cleric prepare the necessary amount of Calm Emotions or carry scrolls of it around. The berserker can choose to fail the saving throw if they want.

[RedMage125]

Seriously though, if you have a frenzied berserker, have the cleric prepare the necessary amount of Calm Emotions or carry scrolls of it around. The berserker can choose to fail the saving throw if they want.

I have been a DM for a few groups with a FB in them, and a Wand of Calm Emotions is pretty cheap by the time he has the PrC. The whole party agreed (including the FB player) that said wand comes from his share of treasure.

Of note, though, is that while the FB can choose to fail the saving throw from an allied Caster, when the Cleric was the person he was attacking due to Frenzy, I did not allow the voluntary failure, as he perceived the cleric as an enemy. But I let the party know this would be the case in advance, and it only ended up happening once.

[Mordante]

Your DM is being exceptionally generous in letting you CHOOSE to change the ally/foe status of anyone affected by your spells every round. Strictly speaking it should not change until the spell ends. Being around a raging barbarian HAS CONSEQUENCES - even if they're an ally. It doesn't matter if he's attacking you, HE IS YOUR ALLY. He could be under the effects of domination or confusion or may have been tricked by an illusion into attacking you and that doesn't make him suddenly NOT your ally, despite the fact that some other effect is causing an ally to harm you or other allies. If you want to not get beaten by your own ally with your own blessings making it easier for him, stay away from him when he runs out of enemies to hack at until his rage is done. That is the price YOU pay for hanging with a barbarian.

I agree with this. Even if he is raging and attacking you, he is still an ally.

[Remuko]

I agree with this. Even if he is raging and attacking you, he is still an ally.

And I submit that no reasonable definition of ally includes someone who is trying to kill you.

[loky1109]

So far, my DM has ruled as such:
At the beginning of each turn, I can decide if a given creature is an enemy or an ally for the purpose of my spells, and this choice persists until the beginning of my next turn.

While I find this ruling satisfactory, I wondered if you had any insight as to this particular situation, if you had encountered similar ones, or if you as a DM would have ruled otherwise.
Also, maybe I'm mistaken, and "allies" and "foes" are clearly defined somewhere, and the ruling contradicts RAW.

Thanks in advance!

Ally can became foe, but ongoing Prayer (or some else) effect doesn't change retroactively. Of course ruling to do choice is reasonable, but this choice should be done only once when spell casts.

[Mordante]

And I submit that no reasonable definition of ally includes someone who is trying to kill you.

I don't agree. The character knows that his ally I can go into rage during battles and that the rage makes him very strong in melee. But that there is a drawback of that rage, meaning that the rage can mean that at a certain point will **** focus from enemies to allies. This was well known when casting the spell.

If the caster wasn't willing to face that consequence he wasn't an ally to begin with. At the moment the spell is cast, the caster decides who is an ally and who isn't. This will last until the spell/effect ends. This can even be abused, by sneaky bastards NPC who pretend to be friendly get buffed by a PC and then backstabs the PC.

[Remuko]

I don't agree. The character knows that his ally I can go into rage during battles and that the rage makes him very strong in melee. But that there is a drawback of that rage, meaning that the rage can mean that at a certain point will **** focus from enemies to allies. This was well known when casting the spell.

If the caster wasn't willing to face that consequence he wasn't an ally to begin with. At the moment the spell is cast, the caster decides who is an ally and who isn't. This will last until the spell/effect ends. This can even be abused, by sneaky bastards NPC who pretend to be friendly get buffed by a PC and then backstabs the PC.

I don't feel like arguing in circles so I'll agree to disagree and bow out.

[Twurps]

I think there's different things going on here, that are being discussed together/interchanged, which doesn't help the discussion (at least for me). So let's see if I can break it down into simple(r) steps.

step 1: The OP question: what is an ally, what is a foe?
This is a simple one in my mind. The FB is an ally at the time of casting, not so much when he's attacking you. So I'm with Remuko on that one. However: that doesn't mean that the effect of the prayer spell has to change as well, for that we need step 2.

step 2: Should a prayer effect change upon changing the friend/fo status of the FB? This has 2 components for me: so:
step 2A: Prayer is a burst. meaning you choose your targets at the time of casting, and they stay target after that. There's no 'adding reinforcements to the list' regardless of whether they are friend or foe. However: There's no choices being made here, it's ALL allies and foes at the time of casting (within range). Because there's no choice, there's no 're-doing' the choices. So choosing who gets affected when is out imho. However:
Step2B: Can/does the spell effect make the decision for you? The FB is a target of the spell. Regardless of whether he's ally or foe. so: Is 're-doing' a decision even required? or is the original decision that the FB is a target enough to let him be affected. For this I'd have to rule the latter. There's no targeting of allies seperate of foes (or vice versa) there's a single targeting of 'all allies and foes'. Once targeted, they are affected by the spell's effect for the spells duration. And the spells effect is a boon for ally's and a malus for foe's. Nowhere in the spells description does it state one has to remain one or the other.

So my conclusion would be: The same spell stays in effect on the FB, but the effect will change depending on whether he's being a friend or foe at the moment. No player choice is required, or even possible.

[Doctor Awkward]

I believe "allies" and "foes" are not specifically defined game terms.

"Ally" is defined in the glossary of the Player's Handbook, on page 304, as "A creature friendly to you. In most cases, references to “allies” include yourself."

"Opponent" is not defined specifically in the glossary, but is contextually defined in the rules on various occasions as an enemy and any creature that is hostile to you.

These definitions are fluid and not set in stone. If an ally is dominated then they are no longer an ally and for most game purpose's they would be considered an opponent.

For the purposes of casting spells, you generally choose the effect at the time the spell is cast and that effect persists until the duration of the spell expires, unless the spell specifically says otherwise. So if someone is designated an ally when a spell is cast then that spell continues to affect them in that way until it ends. As the rules frequently note, once you let the magic leave your hands you no longer control it. It simply is.

[Remuko]

I think there's different things going on here, that are being discussed together/interchanged, which doesn't help the discussion (at least for me). So let's see if I can break it down into simple(r) steps.

step 1: The OP question: what is an ally, what is a foe?
This is a simple one in my mind. The FB is an ally at the time of casting, not so much when he's attacking you. So I'm with Remuko on that one. However: that doesn't mean that the effect of the prayer spell has to change as well, for that we need step 2.

step 2: Should a prayer effect change upon changing the friend/fo status of the FB? This has 2 components for me: so:
step 2A: Prayer is a burst. meaning you choose your targets at the time of casting, and they stay target after that. There's no 'adding reinforcements to the list' regardless of whether they are friend or foe. However: There's no choices being made here, it's ALL allies and foes at the time of casting (within range). Because there's no choice, there's no 're-doing' the choices. So choosing who gets affected when is out imho. However:
Step2B: Can/does the spell effect make the decision for you? The FB is a target of the spell. Regardless of whether he's ally or foe. so: Is 're-doing' a decision even required? or is the original decision that the FB is a target enough to let him be affected. For this I'd have to rule the latter. There's no targeting of allies seperate of foes (or vice versa) there's a single targeting of 'all allies and foes'. Once targeted, they are affected by the spell's effect for the spells duration. And the spells effect is a boon for ally's and a malus for foe's. Nowhere in the spells description does it state one has to remain one or the other.

So my conclusion would be: The same spell stays in effect on the FB, but the effect will change depending on whether he's being a friend or foe at the moment. No player choice is required, or even possible.

you basically explained it the way i envisioned it but couldnt explain, kudos. i agree 100%