Level 20 character with no spells vs Druid with no spells.

[Emperor Demonking]

At level 20, which no spellcasters would win and which would lose.

[Tyger]

Hmmm... a level 20 Druid, with no spells? Why bother the contest at all?

Level 20 fighter, level 20 Rogue, hell even the poor level 20 Monk, all would probably destroy a full caster who doesn't actually have any spells. While the Wildshape and Ally of the Druid are still formidable, you've taken away their main abiltity...

[ZeroNumerous]

Druid Wildshapes into a Huge Air Elemental. Procedes to demolish Fighter 20/Monk 20. Rogue 20 with UMD wins though.

EDIT: Tyger. I'm severely disappointed in you. You've overestimated the monk. :smallamused:

[Tyger]

Hmmm... a Huge Air Elemental with no equipment, vs. a level 20 Fighter with full WBL... I know who my money is on. Hell, the leaping, pouncing, power attack from the shock troopering +5 axiomatic, adamantium, shocking bursting whatever greatsword wielding fighter will kill the druid in air elemental form in one hit. Not to mention the rogue likely SA for about a billion damage before the druid knows he's there.

And sure, maybe the monk might not still be up to it, but its a bogus question in the first place. :smallbiggrin:

[Illiterate Scribe]

Provided the druid didn't just fly away as an air elemental, I imagine that some of the ToB classes could do something, or the pouncing-power-attack barbarian would have a chance.

[ZeroNumerous]

Not to mention the rogue likely SA for about a billion damage before the druid knows he's there.

Elemental. He's immune to SA.

Fighter: You're forgetting something very vital to any druid worth his salt.

Wildling Clasp.

It allows a druid to keep an item while wild-shaped.

Also: Whirlwind. How, pray tell, is the Fighter going to leap/charge/power attack when he's stuck floating in the air and completely helpless? :smallamused:

EDIT: TOB - Entirely possible.

Any other meleer falls to the problem of the Fighter. The druid just assumes whirlwind form.

[Indon]

Hmm. You know, the Monk might be a little bit better off against the Druid than the other core meleers, if the Druid has no spells.

The Monk, at level 20, has DR/Magic. The Druid can only overcome this by shapeshifting into a form that has DR/Magic, methinks, and among animals/plants/elementals that's pretty limited. Certainly, the air elemental is not included.

[Tyger]

Thus the "before the Druid knows he's there" part of the SA.

As for the whirlwind argument... unless I am missing something, a) our level 20 fighter only has to beat a DC 22 reflex save to avoid the whirlwind completely, and has to actually fail two in a roll to get picked up, b) there is nothing to say that said fighter is "helpless", as a matter of fact, they can "otherwise act normally" though can't move of their own volition while in the whirlwind if he is picked up (-2 to attack rolls sure, but still barely a problem), so he can continue to attack the elemental form, c) the elemental does a whopping 2d8 a round, for a max of 10 rounds. If that's the sum total of the druid's tactics, I'll take that fight any day. 10 rounds of 2d8 (so average of 90 damage) to my level 20 fighter, while I get to do 10 rounds of full attacks? Who's laughing now? :)

Not to mention, that assumes no magical items in the possession of the fighter to either fly (which allows a reflex save each round to escape) or to just flat out beat the DC 22, which the 20th level fighter should make without too much problem anyway. Show me a level 20 fighter who doesn't have flight, a +20 to Reflex saves, and a magical weapon to hurt this thing, and I'll show you a character that never went to level 20 in game. :)

[ZeroNumerous]

a) our level 20 fighter only has to beat a DC 22 reflex save to avoid the whirlwind completely, and has to actually fail two in a roll to get picked up,

With what kind of Dexterity? And a +6 increase to his flat Reflex Save? Even with a Cloak of Resistance, he's still failing 55% of the time.


b) there is nothing to say that said fighter is "helpless", as a matter of fact, they can "otherwise act normally" though can't move of their own volition while in the whirlwind if he is picked up (-2 to attack rolls sure, but still barely a problem), so he can continue to attack the elemental form

Wrong my friend. The upper limit of a whirlwind is 50 feet tall. A huge creature is only 32 feet tall. Unless the fighter has some way to get 20 feet of reach without spells..


c) the elemental does a whopping 2d8 a round, for a max of 10 rounds. If that's the sum total of the druid's tactics, I'll take that fight any day. 10 rounds of 2d8 (so average of 90 damage) to my level 20 fighter, while I get to do 10 rounds of full attacks? Who's laughing now? :)

The druid. Primarily when he(in whirlwind form) uses the perfect fly speed of the Air elemental form to fly up 1,000 feet and let the fighter drop.


Not to mention, that assumes no magical items in the possession of the fighter to either fly (which allows a reflex save each round to escape) or to just flat out beat the DC 22, which the 20th level fighter should make without too much problem anyway. Show me a level 20 fighter who doesn't have flight, a +20 to Reflex saves, and a magical weapon to hurt this thing, and I'll show you a character that never went to level 20 in game. :)

A reflex save with crappy dexterity and a -4 penalty on top of that. Being generous, a Fighter only has a 40% chance to escape each round. And even if he does, he still can't actually hit the elemental. As for flight, that really doesn't matter since the elemental could just touch the ground and gain total concealment beyond 5 ft.

And fighter reflex saves are poor, not good.


EDIT: Oh, and now that I remember it.. Rogue: What Druid 20 doesn't spend all day in Air Elemental form?

[SadisticFishing]

Why would you ever turn into an elemental when you can turn into a Dire Tiger? The druid would still beat most people if your DM allows Wild Shape to scale with your level, it's iffy otherwise.

[ZeroNumerous]

Why would you ever turn into an elemental when you can turn into a Dire Tiger? The druid would still beat most people if your DM allows Wild Shape to scale with your level, it's iffy otherwise.

... Because elementals can fly. And are immune to sneak attack. Or they can swim. Or use earth glide. ..Or.. Uh.. Be on fire? Ya, fire elemental form kinda sucks.

[John Campbell]

Also: Whirlwind. How, pray tell, is the Fighter going to leap/charge/power attack when he's stuck floating in the air and completely helpless? :smallamused:

EDIT: TOB - Entirely possible.

Any other meleer falls to the problem of the Fighter. The druid just assumes whirlwind form.

Oh, yeah, because a high-level melee character (especially a rogue!) has absolutely no chance of making any of a series of DC 22 Reflex saves, certainly doesn't have any magic item that'll let him fly to escape the whirlwind, and that -4 penalty on Dexterity, -2 to-hit penalty, and not being able to move except to follow the elemental around without spending a move action of his own on it will totally prevent him from full-attacking the crap out of the elemental.

And, of course, the druid's definitely got the 200 HD he needs to stay in whirlwind form for as long as the wildshape lasts.

[Telonius]

If the Druid is playing to "not lose," there's not much the other characters can do against him. Druid just changes shape into an Earth Elemental, then scurries away underground. There's a chance that a character would be able to pursue using an item of flight, if the Druid goes Air Elemental. But who's going to be able to follow him through solid rock?

[ZeroNumerous]

Oh, yeah, because a high-level melee character (especially a rogue!) has absolutely no chance of making any of a series of DC 22 Reflex saves

Never said the rogue couldn't. Read my post, it explicitly states fighter. Fighters wear plate mail and have Dex scores of 12(and thats being generous). He has a 45% chance to make it with Dex 12, a +5 cloak of resistance, and +6 base save.


certainly doesn't have any magic item that'll let him fly to escape the whirlwind, and that -4 penalty on Dexterity, -2 to-hit penalty

Generally, no. Even if it did, it doesn't matter much anyway.

Also: Whirlwind can be used up to 50 ft in the air. A huge creature is only 32 feet tall. The fighter can't full attack what he can't reach.

[The Glyphstone]

If the Druid is playing to "not lose," there's not much the other characters can do against him. Druid just changes shape into an Earth Elemental, then scurries away underground. There's a chance that a character would be able to pursue using an item of flight, if the Druid goes Air Elemental. But who's going to be able to follow him through solid rock?

There's the Xorn Movement spell from SC...aside from that...?

[SadisticFishing]

... Because elementals can fly. And are immune to sneak attack. Or they can swim. Or use earth glide. ..Or.. Uh.. Be on fire? Ya, fire elemental form kinda sucks.

Yeah, a Dire Tiger attacks 5 times in a round, all of which are at full-ish BAB (get Multiattack), so none of this +20/+15/+10/+5 thing, so you can power attack for a LOT if it looks like they have low AC. On top of that, your animal companion is pretty hardcore too.

Plus, you can just make yourself look like their best friend and kill them while they sleep if they have low spot :P

[ZeroNumerous]

Yeah, a Dire Tiger attacks 5 times in a round, all of which are at full-ish BAB (get Multiattack), so none of this +20/+15/+10/+5 thing, so you can power attack for a LOT if it looks like they have low AC. On top of that, your animal companion is pretty hardcore too.

Plus, you can just make yourself look like their best friend and kill them while they sleep if they have low spot :P

You keep your own skills. Besides that, a druid does not qualify for multiattack in his natural form(unless he has multiple natural weapons such as a kobold). Generally, a druid also does not qualify for power attack. Mostly because STR/DEX/CON become dump-stats.

Further: Flight.

[Indon]

You keep your own skills. Besides that, a druid does not qualify for multiattack in his natural form(unless he has multiple natural weapons such as a kobold). Generally, a druid also does not qualify for power attack. Mostly because STR/DEX/CON become dump-stats.

Further: Flight.

A Druid can take Power Attack even if his base form does not qualify; it's simply that he would only gain access to the benefits of the feat (and any feats based on it that he has) when wildshaped into something that meets the requirements.

[Darkforge]

Never said the rogue couldn't. Read my post, it explicitly states fighter. Fighters wear plate mail and have Dex scores of 12(and thats being generous). He has a 45% chance to make it with Dex 12, a +5 cloak of resistance, and +6 base save.

Fighters do wear full plate and have 12 dex, but level 20 fighters wear mithral full plate and have 16 dex, that and two saves before being taken airborne means he has an odds on chance of not going skywards.



Also: Whirlwind can be used up to 50 ft in the air. A huge creature is only 32 feet tall. The fighter can't full attack what he can't reach.

but the fighter can fly, and probably teleport through items, so reach isn't exactly the issue.

people, stop thinking fighters only exist at level 2, the question was who would win at level 20

-that said i'd still say Druid as they have the exact same range of items that are available to a fighter (almost) and they have the additional versatility of wild shape

-no wait, rogue wins, cos you have to sleep/trance/look the other way at some point, and when you do....

[Tyger]

With what kind of Dexterity? And a +6 increase to his flat Reflex Save? Even with a Cloak of Resistance, he's still failing 55% of the time.

Assumes a lumbering warrior with lousy DEX. Who says that's the case. Even if it is low DEX, there are ways around that. 6 base, + 5 from Cloak or +6 from Superior Resistance if we're getting a bit cheesy, +1-5 from DEX... its not outside the pale that a level 20 Fighter is going to have a 20+ DEX, even if he's not optimized that way.


Wrong my friend. The upper limit of a whirlwind is 50 feet tall. A huge creature is only 32 feet tall. Unless the fighter has some way to get 20 feet of reach without spells.

Except the 32' tall air elemental becomes a 50 foot tall whirlwind. There is no 20 feet of extra space to overcome. Even if there is, find many 20 level fighters without an enchanted means of doing ranged combat?? Oh yeah, the ones who died at level 3. :)


The druid. Primarily when he(in whirlwind form) uses the perfect fly speed of the Air elemental form to fly up 1,000 feet and let the fighter drop.

Leaving aside the likelihood of the fighter surviving that fall (120 max damage? Not killing any level 20 fighter there), its a good thing that your hypothetical fighter doesn't have access to rare and magnificent magical items, like a ring of feather falling, or some other incredibly expensive magic that would prevent death by falling.


A reflex save with crappy dexterity and a -4 penalty on top of that. Being generous, a Fighter only has a 40% chance to escape each round. And even if he does, he still can't actually hit the elemental. As for flight, that really doesn't matter since the elemental could just touch the ground and gain total concealment beyond 5 ft.

And fighter reflex saves are poor, not good.

Yeah, assuming we accept that math... he still has a 40% chance to escape each round. Every round. And that assumes that the Druid does nothign but try to hold him. Which we've already seen is a losing proposition for the druid. At best, the druid does this for ten rounds. The fighter takes little / no damage that can't be easily healed at his wealth level. If the Druid wants to continue this pattern, he's going to have to use more and more wildshape usages to continue it. And he can do this for a maximum of 30 rounds. Which is no where near enough to actually kill the fighter.

None of which factors in that the fighter is going to be hitting each and every round, for a boat load of damage. Those 200ish HP the druid has are really falling fast.


EDIT: Oh, and now that I remember it.. Rogue: What Druid 20 doesn't spend all day in Air Elemental form?

And god knows no level 20 Rogue has the means, magical or otherwise, to use its SA on constructs or elementals.

************************************************** ***

Don't get me wrong, Druids are tough. Hell, they're in the top three, no question. But a druid without spells is no where near that powerful. Sure, wildshape is nasty, and gives a boat load of versatility. But just a wildshaping druid, against someone with all their faculties intact... if the druid stays to fight, it dies.

Of course, we can always set a battlefield that favours one side or the other, but if we are just talking about basic capabilities, factoring in WBL, then the arguments get pretty basic. How much damage can the druid dish out, vs how much can the <insert other class here> dish out, and who can survive it longer. And if there is one thing the Fighter at level 20 is good at, its dishing out a boat load of damage fast, while soaking it up like mad. Normally, that's not a good mark for comparison (who cares how much you do on your full attack when that bloke in a dress can stop time, right!?) but here, its our baseline effect.

[Alex12]

Psions don't have spells. Therefore, they count.
For massive overkill, Reality Revision
Or, Microcosm with max augmentation, area. Unless your Druid has over 330 health, he's out for good. Then I can shoot him until he dies.

[Yeril]

Never said the rogue couldn't. Read my post, it explicitly states fighter. Fighters wear plate mail and have Dex scores of 12(and thats being generous). He has a 45% chance to make it with Dex 12, a +5 cloak of resistance, and +6 base save.

Unless its an Archer based fighter, Who because of a high dexterity would have a much higher reflex save, aswell as the ability to take you out from a range, and since hes a Fighter, he can always swap out for his Rapier, I mean he has the Bab, the AC, the HP and the Feats to burn to hold out in a Melee against the druids meatier forms.

[Frosty]

I think all this shows is that Druid Wildshape is too uber.

[webgem]

Well, to the whole sleep thing, couldn't the druid have wildshape able armor with the immune to criticals thing? Anyways, I'd say the druid's animal companion would help out a decent chunk as well. Probably be pretty even with the monk at least, and the rogue unless the rogue has a specific way to get around it. Then maybe rogue, and the fighter probably not either. I figure the rogue doesn't get UMD either since...well...then the druid would be fighting a spell caster?

[SadisticFishing]

Then switch forms when you sleep to level. Any DM who isn't letting you take those feats is being a RAW kind of guy, in which case my plan is totally legal.

A feral druid spends enough time in animal forms that he can take feats based on em, imo. Plus, it clearly says in the PHB2 in the feats chosen section thingy that "Feral Beast" druids usually take Improved Natural Attack (any) at level 9.

Oh, and you need a good con score to be a druid, as you don't gain the animal's health.

A druid Dire Tiger does get Pounce/Rake, by the way, they're Extraordinary.

A dire bear has 33 strength, + inherent (yes, I would get an inherent bonus to strength as a druid), plus the Ioun Stone, makes for a lot of hitting power.

[Telonius]

... Is there any way for a Druid to get a Rust Monster companion? :smallamused:

[Tyger]

Wildling clasp it what, 4,000 GP? Hmmm... that does level the playing field quite a bit. A druid with all its gear clasped (maybe costing 40-50K sure, but at level 20 WBL, that's not much) can still do a lot of things to counter the fighter's counters... Interesting.

I'm still coming down on the Fighter's side though. Look at the Air Elemental (huge). Its a CR 7 encounter. Add in all the magic, better saves, higher HP and what not, and that still doesn't equate to a level 20 fighter going down. In most cases, at that level, the fighter has to land one, maybe two tops, full attacks or charges to destroy the druid, no matter the form. Whereas the druid can't dish it out quite that high... not due to form restrictions, but due to feats lacked.

In the end, as I have said previously in other "vs" threads, in order to present sound arguments though, we need all the gear, feats, stats and other sundries listed up front. Without those, its just the "Schrödinger's Wizard" argument all over again. :)

[John Campbell]

Never said the rogue couldn't. Read my post, it explicitly states fighter.
I read your post. It explicitly states "Any other meleer", which seems to me to include Rogues and a fair number of other Good Reflex classes as well as the Fighter...


Fighters wear plate mail and have Dex scores of 12(and thats being generous). He has a 45% chance to make it with Dex 12, a +5 cloak of resistance, and +6 base save.
Uh, yeah. IME, fighter-types switch to mithril armor somewhere in the early mid-levels, and start picking up Dex boosters not much later... assuming that they didn't already have more Dex bonus than they could use for those few low levels, in anticipation of getting the mithril armor later.

Hell, I'll have a better Reflex save than that when I hit 20th level, and I'm not planning on making gloves of dexterity (because adamantine full plate), and, thanks to the wonders of multiclassing, my Reflex progression is worse than Poor.

And the odds of failing two saves in a row are considerably lower. Failing three in a row is sheer bad luck. Failing four in a row... well, those chances of success don't just add up, they multiply.


Generally, no. Even if it did, it doesn't matter much anyway.
Generally no what? They won't have an item-based means of flight?

Ah, I see the problem. You're assuming that the fighter is a moron.

And it won't matter because... a roughly even chance of making the save means that they'll never, ever, ever make it?


Also: Whirlwind can be used up to 50 ft in the air. A huge creature is only 32 feet tall. The fighter can't full attack what he can't reach.
There is no "whirlwind can be used". The air elemental is the whirlwind. If it's 50' tall, it's 50' tall.

And even if you don't accept that... IME, even primary-melee Fighters tend to pick up a non-spell means of attacking things out of melee range at, oh, FIRST LEVEL. Ever heard of an arrow?

[KIDS]

Erm, Tyrannosaurus, Swallow Whole? Battlebriar Impale? Air Elemental, fly away? Earth Elemental, earth glide? Dire Tiger for ridiculous pounce/grab? If you are going to base all fighters on high dex and 6x Power Attack stacking chain but disallow druid power attack, then it's quite clear who sucks. This isn't an exercise in "what class can I kill if it is without spells, items, feats, skills and has only 1 ability and is 30 ft. away from me in a dimensional locked adamantite hole", terribly sorry.

That said, if it were indeed a fight with no druid spells and escape not being an option, it would be quite a fair battle or a close call; many of the wildshape forms are nasty but while they're not as powerful as fighter's PA stacking, they allow the druid to perfectly respond to whatever strategy the fighter is using (earth glide 10 ft. under, kkthxbye)

[Indon]

Erm, Tyrannosaurus, Swallow Whole?

While the other strategies you listed are solid, swallowing whole is not neccessarily such a good idea for one PC to use against another.

Stomachs do not have high AC's, and you can't escape your target when they're inside your stomach, taking a light salting of acid and crushing damage and ulcering you to death.

[Wolfwood2]

Step 1 - Sunder the other character's Ring of Freedom of Movement

Step 2 - Turn into something Huge with Improved Grab

Step 3 - Grapple, grapple, grapple.

Not a guaranteed victory, but if the druid can survive two or three rounds of attacks, it's a good option.

[Frakbox]

HAHAHA!! dude thats awesome.




Stomachs do not have high AC's, and you can't escape your target when they're inside your stomach, taking a light salting of acid and crushing damage and ulcering you to death.

[Alex12]

Bah, I still say psionics FTW. They're not technically spellcasters, they manifest powers, not cast spells.:smallsmile:

[Idea Man]

Whatever helps you sleep at night, Alex.

Druid is obviously at the short end of the stick. Even if he wilding clasps everything he can, he's still spending a good portion of his money on keeping his extras, where his opponent needs to do no such thing. The druid has access to unusual, potentialy powerful, forms, but just isn't going to be great at all of them, or even most of them.

In a straight slugfest, the druid won't be able to measure up to an optimized fighter-type. In a more hit-and-run battle, skillmonkeys have the edge in ability and tools. At its best, the druid comes uncomfortably close in capability to other noncasters, proof the class is too sweet at full power.

[DSCrankshaw]

You know, I wouldn't bet too much on the druid being able to assume forms immune to criticals. There are plenty of items which overcome critical hit immunities these days--such as Deathstrike Bracers. Most rogues buy a pair as soon as they can afford it.

[shadowdemon_lord]

I'm surprised no one has given the druid fly by attack yet. You can't catch a fly by attacking air elemental with magic. Perfect maneuverability is just to damn good. That means they can dive, hit, and make a 180 degree turn to go back straight up at their full speed. Going straight up costs everyone else double. Melee builds will be utterly destroyed by this tactic. Of course, a fighter without ranged feats by level 20 is a moron. Then again, a fighter without a prestige class by level 20 is a moron. These PrC's tend to have the effect of limiting the number of feats a fighter has access to, and hence dosen't let him specialize in range. But for arguments sake, lets say level 20 fighters actually existed in practice. I'd say of all the melee focused class builds, this one has the best shot (not including the UMD rogue). He can fight back. I think this is ONE situation in which the straight fighters utter over abundance of feats actually makes him win.

For all you people saying: The dire tiger might kill the fighter in Melee. Optimized fighters are designed to KILL anything and everything that lets them make a full attack. The killing is brutal, horrible, and invovles cleaving (into the animal companion). Any fighter that can't take a dire tiger in a grapple by level 20 isn't worth his salt.

[Weasel2007]

Fly by attack as above or spring attack by earth gliding elemental from below could do a lot.

[lord_khaine]

spring attacking wont help to much against a intelligent opponent who just readies an action to attack when you get within reach.

[vrellum]

The animal companion isn't going to be that much use. The dire tiger seems to be a favorite, but it's not going to be able to reliably hit the fighter, thus not much damage. The tiger's attack bonus will be around +22 assuming a charge. The fighter's AC will be 10 (base) + 13 (mithril full plate +5) + 5 (natural) + 5 (ring or protection) + 7 (large shield-- probably animated) = 40 and that's probably the minimum. So the tiger needs an 18+ to hit

Supposing it does hit the fighter and tries to grapple (a lot of this applies to the wild shaped druid as well), the fighter either:
A) has a ring of freedom of movement, grapple auto fails
B) has close quarters fighting, gets an extra attack, does a lot of damage and wins the grapple
C) has the weapon supremacy feat (I think that's the name from the PHBII) and kills the cat the next round with his big sword.

If the druid stays around to fight, the fighter will eat him for lunch. By 20th level the fighter should be very good at either melee or ranged combat and decent (better than a druid without spells) at the other.

[shadowdemon_lord]

40 is such a crazy low AC for level forty, I hope the fighter has a better AC then that. I've seen 13th level gishes with an AC hovering around 40. They go down when their trying to do things like take on Giants. I'm actually forced to conceed that the fighter eats the druid for breakfast. Even at range, that fighter will have a +5 (+4 strength) composite longbow at least, rapid shot, and probably has boots of speed to. That leaving the druid eating 6 attacks a round at d8+9 (at least).

[Woot Spitum]

It might be expediant to list all the items and their costs before just handing the victory to the fighter. For instance you cannot have a ring of protection, a ring of featherfall, and a ring of freedom of movement all equipped at the same time. Remember also that some magic items have to be activated, costing you valuable actions, especially at the beginning of the battle.

[shadowdemon_lord]

Ring of Feather Fall is needed. We've already established that a druid that turns into an air elemental is going to get torn apart. Ring of FoM is unneeded, the fighter will tear apart anything that gets close, period. The unbuffed animal companion dosen't stand a snowballs chance in hell, and the druid dosen't fair much better.

[Quietus]

Ah, I see the problem. You're assuming that the fighter is a moron.

Just about everyone assumes that around here. "Your fighter can't hit my flying wizard, nyah nyah!" is annoyingly common.

[Woot Spitum]

Just about everyone assumes that around here. "Your fighter can't hit my flying wizard, nyah nyah!" is annoyingly common.

Yeah, but unlike our spell-deprived druid, a wizard gets Wind Wall. And Improved Invisibility.