Do Shillelagh Builds actually hold up??

[CMCC]

I’ve been reading through a ton of posts the last two days on optimizing for shillelagh. Many of them rely on PAM and hunters mark or hex - but the BA economy just doesn’t seem to work for me. All 3 (Pam, shillelagh, and HM) require a BA. A fight is probably over by the 3rd or 4th round.

I’ve seen some booming blade/ GFB options that are decent when paired with some concentration spells.

Are there any builds that actually work in terms of DPR? How does it compare to a baseline like the eldritch blast + Ag blast + hex (or whatever you use)?

I keep trying to make a Ranger (swarmkeeper or gloom) wis shillelagh work, but it just seems WAY inferior to any archery/sharpshooter build.

[ftafp]

at a low-optimization table shillelagh builds can function, but if you're dealing with more experienced players shillelagh builds are going to fall far behind in damage, as options like GWM and SS can effective double your damage per attack without using resources

[LudicSavant]

I’ve been reading through a ton of posts the last two days on optimizing for shillelagh. Many of them rely on PAM and hunters mark or hex - but the BA economy just doesn’t seem to work for me. All 3 (Pam, shillelagh, and HM) require a BA. A fight is probably over by the 3rd or 4th round.

I’ve seen some booming blade/ GFB options that are decent when paired with some concentration spells.

Are there any builds that actually work in terms of DPR? How does it compare to a baseline like the eldritch blast + Ag blast + hex (or whatever you use)?

I keep trying to make a Ranger (swarmkeeper or gloom) wis shillelagh work, but it just seems WAY inferior to any archery/sharpshooter build.

A good Shillelagh-user is generally one that doesn't go too far out of their way for it.

[sithlordnergal]

They do work, but they're mostly relegated to things like Soradins. The main reason is +1d4 is a lot weaker then +10 from GWM or SS. That said, having a free bonus action attack is HUGE for classes that can smite, like a Warlock or Paladin, since you can add an extra 2d8 to 5d8 damage on a hit. Its also relatively resource less. Depending on your build, it also lets you do things like use a Staff of Power as your main weapon, Shillelagh it up, and have a decent +2 weapon.

[MaxWilson]

I’ve been reading through a ton of posts the last two days on optimizing for shillelagh. Many of them rely on PAM and hunters mark or hex - but the BA economy just doesn’t seem to work for me. All 3 (Pam, shillelagh, and HM) require a BA. A fight is probably over by the 3rd or 4th round.

I’ve seen some booming blade/ GFB options that are decent when paired with some concentration spells.

Are there any builds that actually work in terms of DPR? How does it compare to a baseline like the eldritch blast + Ag blast + hex (or whatever you use)?

I keep trying to make a Ranger (swarmkeeper or gloom) wis shillelagh work, but it just seems WAY inferior to any archery/sharpshooter build.

I'm in your camp. Shillelagh is an okay way to acquire a magic weapon and be SAD early on, but unless you're an actual druid or Nature cleric already it's not worth going out of your way for. Its floor for power is high, but its ceiling is low.

Note: I'm slightly biased because in my games Warcaster reaction spells aren't allowed. Warcaster has a different third benefit. So, it's possible that Shillelagh + Warcaster + Booming Blade may in some way be far more awesome than I am aware; but I'm skeptical. After all, if you're relying on Booming Blade for most of your damage, getting an extra +2-3 damage from Shillelagh (vs. relying on your Dex 14-16 or Str 14ish) doesn't matter much, so all that really matters is the extra accuracy and SADness, which again... incremental improvement, not transformative IMO.

[LudicSavant]

I'm in your camp. Shillelagh is an okay way to acquire a magic weapon and be SAD early on, but unless you're an actual druid or Nature cleric already it's not worth going out of your way for. Its floor for power is high, but its ceiling is low.

I'll note that there's a variety of ways to get it without going too far out of your way, not just Nature Cleric and Druid. For example, a Celestial Tomelock can pick up Cha-Shillelagh as one of their bonus cantrips, and it'll synergize with stuff like Familiar-Advantaged Radiant Soul GFB or Warcaster (which you might want for various independent reasons anyway). Note that Eldritch Blast would only get Advantage on a single ray from a familiar's Help. Same for starting a fight Hidden.

Given that Celestial Tomelocks get an awful lot of cantrips known, it's hardly going out of their way.

But yeah, the problem people encounter is when they try to dump more resources into getting Shillelagh than they should. Or just grabbing expensive stuff that doesn't combo that well with it. People sabotage themselves.

[RogueJK]

I keep trying to make a Ranger (swarmkeeper or gloom) wis shillelagh work, but it just seems WAY inferior to any archery/sharpshooter build.

On a straight Ranger, Shillelagh is certainly inferior to Archery+Sharpshooter from an optimization standpoint.

And yeah, it's going to pale in comparison to Agonizing Eldritch Blast + Hex.

However, it still has it uses in niche cases. For example, on something like a Swarmkeeper Ranger 3/Arcana Cleric X, Shilelagh+Booming Blade+Gathered Swarm is a solid option. Stack the Crusher or Telekinetic feat on top of that, for added forced movement.

[ff7hero]

In the right campaign [1] I like PAM on a T3+ Spore Druid. Off the top of my head, snagging Fey Touched (Wis to 18, Hex) and War Caster at 4th and 8th followed by PAM would give you a good option in low impact fights while also letting you pull shenanigans like casting Polymorph or Contagion as a Reaction when someone enters your reach.

[1]Fights usually telegraphed, DM allows "I cast Shillelagh frequently between combats and DM allows the PAM and War Caster OA clauses to synergize.

[CMCC]

On a straight Ranger, Shillelagh is certainly inferior to Archery+Sharpshooter from an optimization standpoint.

However, on something like a Swarmkeeper Ranger 3/Arcana Cleric X, Shilelagh+Booming Blade+Gathered Swarm is a solid option.

Solid compared to what?

[RogueJK]

Compared to a melee attack that requires boosting an additional stat (STR or DEX). You can focus on WIS instead which also helps you spellcasting, and your melee damage output will remain reasonably competitive (if not uber-optimized) thanks to being able to stack stuff like Booming Blade, Gathered Swarm, and eventually Potent Spellcasting.

It's basically Ludic's Arcana Cleric Frontliner, just using Ranger 3 in place of Magic Initiate Druid, and with the added damage or forced movement of Swarmkeeper: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?583957-An-Eclectic-Collection-of-Fun-and-Effective-Builds

And with the forced movement of Gathered Swarm, Crusher, and/or Telekinetic, you can also use Shillelagh+Booming Blade to set up an enemy to be faced with a conundrum of either moving and taking additional BB rider damage, or potentially missing out on a round of attacks.

[Witty Username]

You could try a monk multi-class. Wis for attack/dmg and stun DC. You will probably be a bit behind on damage but it will come with some control. That is a comes online level 7ish build though and doesn't do much before that.

[CMCC]

Compared to a melee attack that requires boosting an additional stat (STR or DEX). You can focus on WIS instead which also helps you spellcasting, and your melee damage output will remain reasonably competitive (if not uber-optimized) thanks to being able to stack stuff like Booming Blade, Gathered Swarm, and eventually Potent Spellcasting.

It's basically Ludic's Arcana Cleric Frontliner, just using Ranger 3 in place of Magic Initiate Druid, and with the added damage or forced movement of Swarmkeeper: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?583957-An-Eclectic-Collection-of-Fun-and-Effective-Builds

And with the forced movement of Gathered Swarm, Crusher, and/or Telekinetic, you can also use Shillelagh+Booming Blade to set up an enemy to be faced with a conundrum of either moving and taking additional BB rider damage, or potentially missing out on a round of attacks.

I worry about BA economy on builds like the arcana build, too.

Assuming you’re not just walking around casting shillelagh every 59 seconds it can be tough in battle. Spirit guardians + spiritual weapon + shillelagh takes 3 rounds to get going and interfere with each other some rounds.

I’m reminded of shadow blade issues with bladesingers but even that isn’t quite as bad and the song not being a spell really helps reduce spell conflicts.

But I do agree that a single attack booming blade build may be the best one.

The only other one I can think of is a Ranger/spore Druid build with PAM that can get you that d6 for each of the 3 attacks. But that doesn’t come online until LATE - at 8 (3 levels of Druid) you’d have 12 temp hp, which would likely not last very many rounds. So not sure how viable that is until tier 3.

[Toadkiller]

at a low-optimization table shillelagh builds can function, but if you're dealing with more experienced players shillelagh builds are going to fall far behind in damage, as options like GWM and SS can effective double your damage per attack without using resources

“More experienced” does not necessarily equate to “plays optimized”. “Optimized” can be kind of boring after awhile.

On topic.

It is an easy way to add a melee dimension to a character. If you get it with melee cantrip it can be - fairly average really. But it can be fun. I’m glad it’s in the game.

[Witty Username]

My take, assuming you are trying to make a Ranger work specifically, is you are trading damage for options, trying to leverage higher than average Wis on your martial character.
Fey wander, for example, with Shillelagh you can have decent damage, but you are probably trying to get the most out of Beguiling Twist. And can take on board spells like entangle with greater confidence that they will work.

Probably the best for this would be Swarmkeeper, your main goal being to use battlefield control spells and your forced movement attacks to create greater advantages than would be gained by straight damage.

Spike Growth will be your mantra.

[Addaran]

In general, you optimize by taking Shillelagh not because it's the best but because it lets you save on other stuff. Like a dwarf in heavy armor can just dumb str and dex, while still having maxed attack stat. Doesn't compete against SS or GWM, but if you want one handed melee ( so you can use a shield?) It's great and can use PAM. If you're not sure between pact of Chain or pact of Blade, you can go middle ground with pact of Tome, get a normal familliar and decent melee damage with Shillelagh and a SCAG cantrip.
Lets you always have a magic weapon for martial type.
Decent AoO on your pure caster druide. Etc

[Thunderous Mojo]

Given that Celestial Tomelocks get an awful lot of cantrips known, it's hardly going out of their way.

Agreed.


For example, a Celestial Tomelock can pick up Cha-Shillelagh as one of their bonus cantrips, and it'll synergize with stuff like Familiar-Advantaged Radiant Soul GFB or Warcaster (which you might want for various independent reasons anyway). Note that Eldritch Blast would only get Advantage on a single ray from a familiar's Help. Same for starting a fight Hidden.

Hmm..so when the originating post asks how Shillelagh "holds up" my mind jumps to play past level 10+. Mr. Owl, the Celestial Tomelock's regular familiar likely has 1 HP + 16 Temp HP if the familiars master is a 20th level Warlock.

Mr. Owl might opine that it "Takes 3 licks to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll pop", but alas past 10th level it doesn't take 3 licks to squish Mr. Owl....it probably takes one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ0epRjfGLw

A Celestial Tomelock is fine..but for High Tier Familiar antics, a Celestial Chainlock with Gift of the Ever Living is a game changer....(which you know, based off the build you have posted).

TL;DR: Post level 10+ one has to assume any 'regular' Familiar tactics, especially Helping others in combat, (Even with Flyby), might be thwarted rather quickly. YMMV of course.

[Toadkiller]

A familiar taking an attack targeted at it is a total win as that’s an attack not targeted at YOU.

[LudicSavant]

Hmm..so when the originating post asks how Shillelagh "holds up" my mind jumps to play past level 10+. Mr. Owl, the Celestial Tomelock's regular familiar likely has 1 HP + 16 Temp HP if the familiars master is a 20th level Warlock.

Mr. Owl might opine that it "Takes 3 licks to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll pop", but alas past 10th level it doesn't take 3 licks to squish Mr. Owl....it probably takes one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ0epRjfGLw

A Celestial Tomelock is fine..but for High Tier Familiar antics, a Celestial Chainlock with Gift of the Ever Living is a game changer....(which you know, based off the build you have posted).

TL;DR: Post level 10+ one has to assume any 'regular' Familiar tactics, especially Helping others in combat, (Even with Flyby), might be thwarted rather quickly. YMMV of course.

Of course, familiars can die. But the point wasn't really "you're going to have familiar help 100% of the time," it's "a single melee attack often gets more benefit from Advantage mechanics than Eldritch Blast does, which is one of the reasons you might care to have both if the option is just sitting there at almost-no-opportunity-cost."

This is because there are more things that give Advantage (or other kinds of rerolls) to a single attack than all attacks (such as starting every fight Invisible thanks to Shroud of Shadows), and because there are more things that give Advantage on melee attacks than ranged attacks. Also because various things inflict penalties on ranged attacks (dropping prone, being within 5 feet, having cover, etc).

That said, when it comes to the care of familiars:
- Try to keep them in safe positioning, using Flyby to dart in, apply Help, and dart back to safe positioning.
- When I say safe positioning, I don't necessarily mean a place the enemy can't target, but one that would be strategically costly for them to target (for example, if an enemy has to take OAs to get there, or the like, that's just as good).
- A familiar is cheap to replace, so don't fret too much if they die. Just try not to let them die from collateral damage (don't put them in fireball formation).

[1Pirate]

Having played two Shillelagh builds (an Arcana Cleric(MI: Druid) briefly, and a Celestial Tomelock in a longer campaign), the big draw is versatility. Shillelagh allows you to get up in their face when range or leveled spell casting is impractical(and you can hold your own if they decide to bypass your frontliners). The issue I think is that it may not work well for the classes that have it on their spell list.


Hmm..so when the originating post asks how Shillelagh "holds up" my mind jumps to play past level 10+. Mr. Owl, the Celestial Tomelock's regular familiar likely has 1 HP + 16 Temp HP if the familiars master is a 20th level Warlock.

Mr. Owl might opine that it "Takes 3 licks to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll pop", but alas past 10th level it doesn't take 3 licks to squish Mr. Owl....it probably takes one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ0epRjfGLw

A Celestial Tomelock is fine..but for High Tier Familiar antics, a Celestial Chainlock with Gift of the Ever Living is a game changer....(which you know, based off the build you have posted).

TL;DR: Post level 10+ one has to assume any 'regular' Familiar tactics, especially Helping others in combat, (Even with Flyby), might be thwarted rather quickly. YMMV of course.

Oh boy, does your mileage ever vary. When I was a Celestial Tomelock--based on Ludic's build--at 10+ my familiar wasn't taking the Help action for me any more. No, he's giving advantage to Sir Smites Alot Paladin or Mr. Sneakattack Kthxby Rogue while I was knocking mooks back into my Sickening Radiance with Repelling Blast or roasting them with a Radiant Soul-ed GFB. With 60' of movement, trying to get rid of the familiar usually meant taking a turn to do a piñata impression with the frontliners. (I swear if I make one more post simping for that build, Ludic's going to have to give me two cantrips, a short-rest spell slot, and temp HP every time I reduce a creature to 0 hit points).

Edit: grammar

[Thunderous Mojo]

Of course, familiars can die. .

Thank you for stating this. It irks me, that so many discussions around Familiars, ignore the fragility of the creature. 👍



Oh boy, does your mileage ever vary. When I was a Celestial Tomelock--based on Ludic's build--at 10+ my familiar wasn't taking the Help action for me any more.

So by this statement, I'm inferring your Familiar never dies or is attacked?
Do you never encounter a creature with Aura damage, Glyphs of Warding that are triggered by Familiars, or mooks with Wands of Magic Missile that accompany Bosses?

I don't want to deviate to far afield from the topic, but Familiars in D&D are similar to Drones today in the modern battlefield. Force Protection from Drones is a top concern for the modern battlespace. The same should likely be true for a D&D world.

[Dork_Forge]

Thank you for stating this. It irks me, that so many discussions around Familiars, ignore the fragility of the creature. 👍


The discussions that acknowledge that familiars can die never usually acknowledge the impracticality of replacing them frequently however, the time is usually handwaved or the material component isn't a problem. Vanilla familiars tend to get overhyped on here imo, if a DM allows constant heavy use of familiars without backlash then it's really making the spell more than it was meant to be.


As for Shillelagh builds, it really depends what the point of the cantrip in the build is, it won't 'hold up' as in be competitive in damage unless you invest heavily in that playstyle and even then it won't be rocking any worlds.

[1Pirate]

So by this statement, I'm inferring your Familiar never dies or is attacked?
That seems to be an odd inference. It's a pretty big jump from "not as easily thwarted at 10+" to "never dies or is attacked". Quite frequently, the point was to have it get attacked.



Do you never encounter a creature with Aura damage, Glyphs of Warding that are triggered by Familiars, or mooks with Wands of Magic Missile that accompany Bosses?


Yes, and I changed tactics accordingly. A DM can certainly start metagaming around a familiar, but it doesn't exist in a vacuum. There's whole adventuring party that's going to cause the BBEG a lot of problems if they spend a turn, or resources, or both killing the bird.

Edit: I should acknowledge that the campaign didn't go into Tier 4, however there was still sufficient time spent beyond 10 where the familiar remained relevant.

[Lupine]

You could use magic initiate (druid) with monk to be pretty decent for a bit. Getting a D8 monk weapon using wis only could make an alright stun-focus monk, as making wis, also maxes direct damage. Dex would still be important for ac, but other than for heavy armor melees, who isn’t that true for?

[LudicSavant]

Familiars can die, but they'll die a lot less with sound tactics (either that, or die in ways that are worth it).

In tier 3 specifically, barring the occasional forward scouting mission, I tend to keep my familiars in back or up high or in a bag of holding or otherwise somewhere I deem "safe enough," then move them in when I feel confident to do so.

Glyphs of Warding can be detected and thwarted by Arcana checks, per the DMG rules. If doing a forward scouting mission, you can see through their eyes. Worst case, it's a Glyph that wasn't used on a PC instead.

Mooks, by their nature, often lack the special abilities needed to bypass careful positioning, and often aren't alive for the whole fight (so you can keep your familiar back initially, blow up the mooks with AoEs, then move the familiar in). They also might require multiple attacks to kill a Tier 3+ Celestial Tomelock's familiar when they get a shot (because of a low attack bonus, Celestial Resilience, and as of Tasha's Gift of the Protectors).

Absolute worst case, you lose your familiar for the rest of the day and spend a pittance to recover them, and you just use all the other ways of getting Advantage. For example, a Tier 3+ Celestial Tomelock might open up every battle invisible because of Shroud of Shadows.

[neonchameleon]

A good Shillelagh-user is generally one that doesn't go too far out of their way for it.

This. They're for people who contribute in melee rather than primary combatants. A celestial tomelock with shillelagh and greenflame blade is never going to match a raging barbarian's DPR - but nor should it. They hit decently and do plenty of other things.


They do work, but they're mostly relegated to things like Soradins. The main reason is +1d4 is a lot weaker then +10 from GWM or SS.

Don't forget it's +1d4 + spellcasting stat.

Oh, and the bonus action to cast shllelagh shouldn't be much of an issue if you're moving through dangerous terrain; recast every five rounds if you're not doing anything else.

[diplomancer]

This. They're for people who contribute in melee rather than primary combatants. A celestial tomelock with shillelagh and greenflame blade is never going to match a raging barbarian's DPR - but nor should it. They hit decently and do plenty of other things.



Don't forget it's +1d4 + spellcasting stat.

Oh, and the bonus action to cast shllelagh shouldn't be much of an issue if you're moving through dangerous terrain; recast every five rounds if you're not doing anything else.

This is one of the things you should clear up with the DM. Some DMs will just "nope" it, saying "casting a spell every 30 seconds would annoy *everyone* around you"; some will say "ok, but no stealth possible" (it's what I would probably do); and some will be totally cool with it. In this later case it would be worth it to really invest in shillelagh; otherwise don't, unless your battle are really long, or (also quite likely) if your DM gives a reasonable encounter distance (my usual ones don't... grrr).

[RogueJK]

They do work, but they're mostly relegated to things like Soradins.

How would being a Sorcerer/Paladin multiclass help make Shillelagh workable?

Yeah, a Sorcadin could technically gain Shillelagh by taking Magic Initiate: Druid, or being a Wood Elf and take Wood Elf Magic, or dipping a level of Nature Cleric or Druid, but all of those would be WIS-based Shillelaghs. And Sorcadins are MAD enough already, so they almost certainly can't spare a high WIS on top of STR/CON/CHA.

The only way for a Sorcadin to get a CHA-based Shillelagh would be to also take 3 levels of Tomelock or 6 levels of Lore Bard, and either of those would be a rather large investment and delay to your Paladin/Sorcerer levels for very minimal return. (Not to mention that you'd have to have a backup plan for your attacks anyway, while you're waiting multiple levels for your Shillelagh to come online.) You'd be much better off with just the typical 1 level Hexblade dip if you're after a CHA-based d8 melee weapon for your Sorcadin.

[Willie the Duck]

I’ve been reading through a ton of posts the last two days on optimizing for shillelagh. Many of them rely on PAM and hunters mark or hex - but the BA economy just doesn’t seem to work for me. All 3 (Pam, shillelagh, and HM) require a BA. A fight is probably over by the 3rd or 4th round.

I’ve seen some booming blade/ GFB options that are decent when paired with some concentration spells.

Are there any builds that actually work in terms of DPR? How does it compare to a baseline like the eldritch blast + Ag blast + hex (or whatever you use)?

I keep trying to make a Ranger (swarmkeeper or gloom) wis shillelagh work, but it just seems WAY inferior to any archery/sharpshooter build.

To me, the primary advantage of a Shillelagh is that you never have to raise your Dex over 14*. This allows you to pick up a bunch more Wisdom or other feats, enhancing the party power level that way.
*also, assuming you grab it via the druidic warrior fighting style, a second druid cantrip

It really is similar to the moderately armored Celestial Tomelock who also might consider shillelagh -- it allows for the creation of a versatile support character who is not bad (as opposed to actually good) at combat.

[CMCC]

You could use magic initiate (druid) with monk to be pretty decent for a bit. Getting a D8 monk weapon using wis only could make an alright stun-focus monk, as making wis, also maxes direct damage. Dex would still be important for ac, but other than for heavy armor melees, who isn’t that true for?

A monk build that’s decent? Hmmm


To me, the primary advantage of a Shillelagh is that you never have to raise your Dex over 14*. This allows you to pick up a bunch more Wisdom or other feats, enhancing the party power level that way.
*also, assuming you grab it via the druidic warrior fighting style, a second druid cantrip

It really is similar to the moderately armored Celestial Tomelock who also might consider shillelagh -- it allows for the creation of a versatile support character who is not bad (as opposed to actually good) at combat.

Maybe I need to see comparative builds or something, but can’t you make a versatile character with a Ranger that has 16 dex and wis and takes archery/SS as opposed to 18 wis, 14 dex, Shillelagh.

You’re much better in combat not only because of damage, but because of increased initiative. And the lower wis does hurt your beasts and spells but not nearly as much as the your offense is hurt going with the Shillelagh build.

Maybe the issue is there’s a lot of talk about theory and not enough with actual numbers.

[stoutstien]

A monk build that’s decent? Hmmm



Maybe I need to see comparative builds or something, but can’t you make a versatile character with a Ranger that has 16 dex and wis and takes archery/SS as opposed to 18 wis, 14 dex, Shillelagh.

You’re much better in combat not only because of damage, but because of increased initiative. And the lower wis does hurt your beasts and spells but not nearly as much as the your offense is hurt going with the Shillelagh build.

Maybe the issue is there’s a lot of talk about theory and not enough with actual numbers.

i mean do you expect a single cantrip to match a fighting style + feat combo? its a better to compare it against whatever else they gain in return like one of the touched feats or the tele feat for bonus control. nothing as clean as a flat number comparison but a few extra spells a day could well outperform the SS benchmark.

[Willie the Duck]

Maybe I need to see comparative builds or something, but can’t you make a versatile character with a Ranger that has 16 dex and wis and takes archery/SS as opposed to 18 wis, 14 dex, Shillelagh.

You’re much better in combat not only because of damage, but because of increased initiative. And the lower wis does hurt your beasts and spells but not nearly as much as the your offense is hurt going with the Shillelagh build.

Maybe the issue is there’s a lot of talk about theory and not enough with actual numbers.

Let's use V. Human with 16 14 14 12 10 8* as our staring point. and compare some point in tier 1 past the point where you can buy the equipment you want.
*denoted as '*' in these builds, as order can be whatever one prefers

An archer ranger -- */16/14/*/14/*, and Sharpshooter and archery fighting style is going to have +7 to-hit, 1d8+3 (potential for -5/+10) damage, an AC of 17 (16 if want to stealth), and ranger spells

A Shillelagh ranger -- */14/14/*/16/* and ritual caster:wizard and druidic warrior (shillelagh and guidance) is going to have +5 to-hit, 1d8+3 damage, an AC of 19 (18 if want to stealth), and ranger spells (which are resisted less), and lots of support abilities. It also, compared to the archer, is the front line, defending the flimsy characters, or setting up (say) the archer fighter that the group has.

If they both spend their next ASIs getting their primary stat up to 20, the archery ranger is going to continue to get better at shooting (and with the upped to-hit, probably will take the -5/+10 more often, increasing their damage output further). The shillelagh ranger is going to continue to deal 1d8+ an increasing Wis modifier in damage (eventually x2 at level 5), but continue to have harder to resist spells.

They serve different purposes, but each would support a party. Especially if, as apparently many people do, the build eventually stops advancing as druid and picks up druid or cleric or the like.


i mean do you expect a single cantrip to match a fighting style + feat combo? its a better to compare it against whatever else they gain in return like one of the touched feats or the tele feat for bonus control. nothing as clean as a flat number comparison but a few extra spells a day could well outperform the SS benchmark.
Exactly, it is a low-commitment strategy.

[LudicSavant]

Since a Celestial Tomelock is so versatile, it can basically choose the best option for a given situation.

The kinds of situations where a Tomelock is gonna wanna use Shillelagh-GFB are those where it can get Advantage on a single attack (it has a lot of ways to get it) and hits two targets. Keep in mind that it's easier to get Advantage on a single attack than on multiple attacks.

In such a situation, a tier 4 (level 17) Tomelock is looking at ~43 DPR vs AC 19, split between two targets. Much more if they're Concentrating on something (like Summon Fiend), or if Warcaster activates, or if someone hits you and activates Armor of Agathys or Hellish Rebuke, or etc etc.

For a basic scale reference, 3x vanilla greatsword GWM attacks against the same AC is ~27 DPR vs AC 19, or ~44 with Advantage on all 3 attacks.

For another scale reference, 4x vanilla Agonizing Eldritch Blast against the same AC is ~28 DPR vs AC 19, or ~39 with Advantage on all 4 attacks.

A highlight here is that the Celestial Tomelock doesn't really need to go out of its way for this at all. It can just grab Shillelagh as one of its many cantrips (Celestial Tomelocks get a whopping 9 cantrips known). No dumping feats or fighting styles or a bunch of invocations or any of that. No setup rounds, either. It's just another of your many options, and can be combined with other ones simultaneously for greater output.

In short, it holds up quite well, all the way to Tier 4.

[CMCC]

i mean do you expect a single cantrip to match a fighting style + feat combo? its a better to compare it against whatever else they gain in return like one of the touched feats or the tele feat for bonus control. nothing as clean as a flat number comparison but a few extra spells a day could well outperform the SS benchmark.

Eldritch blast is a single cantrip that can hold up fairly well.

I’m talking about builds around Shillelagh, not just grabbing the cantrip and calling it a day.

Perhaps, PAM + spirit shroud + something else makes it a viable damage dealer. Idk. That’s why I made the post.

I’m also aware that you’re giving up damage to gain spell power and versatility. I just wonder if losing 50% of your dmg (or whatever it is) is worth a 10% boost in spell and class feature power (upping your spell DC). Maybe it saves you an ASI that helps your numbers?

Again, this is why I’m asking maybe I need to crunch the numbers.

[stoutstien]

Eldritch blast is a single cantrip that can hold up fairly well.

I’m talking about builds around Shillelagh, not just grabbing the cantrip and calling it a day.

Perhaps, PAM + spirit shroud + something else makes it a viable damage dealer. Idk. That’s why I made the post.

I’m also aware that you’re giving up damage to gain spell power and versatility. I just wonder if losing 50% of your dmg (or whatever it is) is worth a 10% boost in spell and class feature power (upping your spell DC). Maybe it saves you an ASI that helps your numbers?

Again, this is why I’m asking maybe I need to crunch the numbers.

As pointed out above just using it with one of the Scag cantrips is usually enough to keep it above par if damage is your goal but usually it's about maximizing return on a low cost investment.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Yes, and I changed tactics accordingly. A DM can certainly start metagaming around a familiar, but it doesn't exist in a vacuum. There's whole adventuring party that's going to cause the BBEG a lot of problems if they spend a turn, or resources, or both killing the bird.

Remember your response was essentially "Yes, our mileage varies" without any explanation of how it varied. The statement quoted above is reasonable....it might be a little too focused on facing a single creature...but we are getting the same gas mileage range.

I don't think Intelligent, or Immortal foes are "Metagaming" by electing to have defenses ready for Familiars. Demogorgon has probably had it's Material Plane Avatar slain with the assistance of a Familiar and a Paladin's Smite, (to continue your previous example 😀), a few dozen times....immortal creatures have long memories and a vast experience to draw from.

Put all this together, and I hope the board is getting what I am trying to convey:

I don't discount Familiars in High Tier play, I know how effective Familiars can still be. If I know this, than a 20+ INT creature probably knows this as well.


Familiars can die, but they'll die a lot less with sound tactics (either that, or die in ways that are worth it)....snip


Of course this is true. Why are nuanced positions being discounted?
My stating that discussions about Familiars often gloss over Familiars dying, is not the same as saying "Familiars are worthless" or "Familiars always die".

The game is fun with counterplay...my guess is Players probably have more fun when you have to figure out creative movements to keep your Familiar alive, and to use it effectively...as opposed to using your Familiar in cakewalk battle.

I am not adverse to participating in a new thread about Familiars....but will not discuss the topic further here in this thread, out for respect of Forum rules.

Thanks for the discussion. (Sorry, I like talking about Familiars)


This is one of the things you should clear up with the DM. Some DMs will just "nope" it, saying "casting a spell every 30 seconds would annoy *everyone* around you"; some will say "ok, but no stealth possible" (it's what I would probably do); and some will be totally cool with it. .

My personal opinion, is if someone wants to plan a build around Shillelagh, but continual recasting is annoying to the DM, or if the DM is fine with a continual recasting of the spell....why not include a Supernatural Boon that let's the PC have a permanent Shillelagh effect.

It just saves time, and it isn't like Shillelagh, is going to break the game. Shillelagh is a useful tool, but I've never seen it be overwhelming.

[CMCC]

As pointed out above just using it with one of the Scag cantrips is usually enough to keep it above par if damage is your goal but usually it's about maximizing return on a low cost investment.

Yeah mixing with wildfire Druid/ 1 level arcana dip and either BB or GFB seems really solid.

At lvl 7 you can go GFB for the extra 1d8 fire damage or go with BB and teleport everyone away from the encased enemy for another 2d8.

[Sorinth]

Eldritch blast is a single cantrip that can hold up fairly well.

I’m talking about builds around Shillelagh, not just grabbing the cantrip and calling it a day.

Perhaps, PAM + spirit shroud + something else makes it a viable damage dealer. Idk. That’s why I made the post.

I’m also aware that you’re giving up damage to gain spell power and versatility. I just wonder if losing 50% of your dmg (or whatever it is) is worth a 10% boost in spell and class feature power (upping your spell DC). Maybe it saves you an ASI that helps your numbers?

Again, this is why I’m asking maybe I need to crunch the numbers.

That's a Cantrip + Invocation because EB without Agonizing Blast doesn't hold up fairly well.

[CMCC]

That's a Cantrip + Invocation because EB without Agonizing Blast doesn't hold up fairly well.

Builds tend to require you do more than one thing to make them work optimally.

I think it’s clear, but if not, I’m curious about optimal shillelagh builds and how they compare to optimal SS or GWM builds (or whatever) that may be available to the classes that can also easily get shillelagh.

Ludic brought some excellent numbers to the table. That’s certainly helpful.

[Dork_Forge]

Since a Celestial Tomelock is so versatile, it can basically choose the best option for a given situation.

{Scrubbed}


The kinds of situations where a Tomelock is gonna wanna use Shillelagh-GFB are those where it can get Advantage on a single attack (it has a lot of ways to get it) and hits two targets. Keep in mind that it's easier to get Advantage on a single attack than on multiple attacks.

So far all you've provided for how they get that advantage is a familiar, or a 15th level invocation that will eat up their concentration and make party support harder.

If the things you include involve two different invocations in play, that significantly diminishes the low cost strategy you're portraying this as, regardless if those things have other uses.


In such a situation, a tier 4 (level 17) Tomelock is looking at ~43 DPR vs AC 19, split between two targets. Much more if they're Concentrating on something (like Summon Fiend), or if Warcaster activates, or if someone hits you and activates Armor of Agathys or Hellish Rebuke, or etc etc.

What a best case scenario, assuming that the enemy creature isn't resistant or immune to fire and that they're both within 5ft of each other.

What's missing here is that this is all or nothing, as opposed to your points of comparison.


For a basic scale reference, 3x vanilla greatsword GWM attacks against the same AC is ~27 DPR vs AC 19, or ~44 with Advantage on all 3 attacks.

For another scale reference, 4x vanilla Agonizing Eldritch Blast against the same AC is ~28 DPR vs AC 19, or ~39 with Advantage on all 4 attacks.

Seems odd the scale reference is someone trying to use GWM against a high AC and another Warlock that is not leveraging the number of attacks for more damage. Vs a build that required two cantrips, subclass ability boost, with additional invocation investment for the adantage generation.


A highlight here is that the Celestial Tomelock doesn't really need to go out of its way for this at all. It can just grab Shillelagh as one of its many cantrips (Celestial Tomelocks get a whopping 9 cantrips known). No dumping feats or fighting styles or a bunch of invocations or any of that. No setup rounds, either. It's just another of your many options, and can be combined with other ones simultaneously for greater output.


{Scrubbed}

"Tomelocks get a whopping 9 cantrips" Technically true, but you're missing that two of them are fixed choices and Shillelagh has to come from 3 free choices. GFB is 25% of the free 'lock cantrips and Shillelagh is a third of the entire pact boon. It is a significant investment of the Tomelocks respective free choices, and that investment increases if they grab Booming Blade to have a more reliable damage type/secondary effect.

"no set up rounds" Tecnically true, since Shillelagh is a bonus action, but you also talk about combining it with other things... which is set up. The EB Warlock can Hex on the same turn, the Bladelock can Spirit Shroud, the Tomelock using Shillelagh needs two turns to get a combo going.

If you actually did a Tomelock that had no synergistic invocations with this style, then it'd be far less effective, since the only two ways you've stated for advantage are both invocations.



In short, it holds up quite well, all the way to Tier 4.

Shillelagh builds in general can do well enough up to Tier 4, claiming that a fire centric strategy can hold up into Tier 4 without so much as investing in Elemental Adept?

On the one hand it's a strategy that involves a substantial amount of the character's power so it should do well, on the other your examples are (imo) not grounded in expectations of play (regular vanilla familiar access, benefiting from invisibility in high level combat etc.).

Big fan of Warlocks, especially Celestials and Tome, but this just felt like being pitched a used car.

[Person_Man]

I know its probably posted in a hundred other places, but does anyone have a damage per round chart for this handy? My read is that its a good idea for Druids specifically, and maybe a few other builds that get it easily. But its not worth the resources for most others.

In particular, Druid really don’t have to worry much about AC, thanks to Wildshape and easy access to healing. But most other builds will want max-ish Dex or Str anyway, so shifting your melee attacks to a caster stat doen’t accomplish as much. Though I’m sure there are specific builds that disprove this idea.

[Toadkiller]

CMCC - I’m not sure what you are looking for at this point.

But what seems to be the advantages of shillelagh is it is a cheap (one cantrip) way to have a casting stat melee option. I think there is consensus that it isn’t going to be a “god build” but there are a variety of ways to make it worth a cantrip slot if you have one and that slot lines up with a useful stat for your character. So not “god” but it can be “good” especially as a way to have a fairly cheap melee option. Even adding a sword coast melee cantrip might be worth it if your party could use for some extra melee oomph from time to time.

As for the casting it every 30 seconds. If I was GM the character’s god and/or the god of magic would show up, tell them off, and turn them into a newt. They would, most likely, get better.

[MaxWilson]

As far as casting it every 30 seconds, I've found that players are generally pretty reasonable if the DM is reasonable. When the players are on the move, kicking down doors, I have no problem with someone obsessively casting Shillelagh every thirty seconds or so, any more than I have a problem with someone obsessively checking their ammo.

But when the players are stationary for hours, and a player says "I keep casting Shillelagh", I find that if I say, "Really? I was okay with it when you were moving--casting Shillelagh ten times in eight minutes is perfectly reasonable. But are you really going to cast Shillelagh hundreds of times over the next eight hours? That's like trying to sing Ten Thousand Bottles of Beer on the Wall--nothing prevents you from doing it, but are you really going to?" If I say this, then players are likely to shrug and say, "Okay, then I cast it as soon as something suspicious happens," and I agree, and now the player gets what they want (Shillelagh is usually available outside of truly surprising threats, like werewolves suddenly attacking you while you're reading in a library) and yet I get what I want (dozens of Shillelaghs per day instead of thousands).

[Toadkiller]

Agree. If there is a moment of suspicion I would always grant “shillelagh” as I would drawing weapons, etc. You’re not going to get to don the full plate but quick “getting ready” is reasonable enough.

I played with a reasonable strict DM and having shillelagh up was never an issue. If I didn’t have a “prep round” then if they were on top of us I would cast it, if they weren’t I might not especially if I wanted to cast Hex instead.

[Thunderous Mojo]

As far as casting it every 30 seconds, I've found that players are generally pretty reasonable if the DM is reasonable. When the players are on the move, kicking down doors, I have no problem with someone obsessively casting Shillelagh every thirty seconds or so, any more than I have a problem with someone obsessively checking their ammo.

But when the players are stationary for hours, and a player says "I keep casting Shillelagh", I find that if I say, "Really? I was okay with it when you were moving--casting Shillelagh ten times in eight minutes is perfectly reasonable. But are you really going to cast Shillelagh hundreds of times over the next eight hours? That's like trying to sing Ten Thousand Bottles of Beer on the Wall--nothing prevents you from doing it, but are you really going to?"

I agree with this, but to offer a small real world counterpoint, my favorite uncle has Tourette's Syndrome...a small neck twitch, with a verbal utterance--maybe not a word...but a sound about the same duration as a quick cough....
.........which is basically a somatic and verbal component in a spells' casting requirements.

My uncle has had periods, where he does repeat this, about every 10 minutes ....so continually casting the same spell over and over could just appear similar to Tourette's Syndrome.

It honestly isn't that intrusive...it looks like some one stretching their neck, and clearing their throat which is fairly quotidian behavior.

Of course in games were spellcasting requirements are more dramatic..."Boil, Boil, Toil and Trouble..." type of affairs...then continually recasting becomes narratively silly.

[Man_Over_Game]

For the record, without Extra Attack, Shillelagh is about on-par with Thorn Whip by level 5, and straight up loses in later levels (up to 4d6 from Thorn Whip). Thorn Whip is also an attack, so it'd proc Spirit Shroud and other attack riders as well (like Piercer).

That's the real challenge: Make a Shillelagh build that's better than Thorn Whip, and then decide if all the extra costs are worth it for yourself.

[BoxANT]

Assuming a ranger build, I think Hunters Mark is not a good choice for shillelagh due to the bonus action from PAM.

I find that Summon Beast (air) to be a much better use of concentration. Lasts for an hour, doesnt take an action to attack, flybye, and does about as much as 3 hits from hunters mark.

[RogueJK]

For the record, without Extra Attack, Shillelagh is about on-par with Thorn Whip by level 5, and straight up loses in later levels (up to 4d6 from Thorn Whip). Thorn Whip is also an attack, so it'd proc Spirit Shroud and other attack riders as well (like Piercer).

That's the real challenge: Make a Shillelagh build that's better than Thorn Whip, and then decide if all the extra costs are worth it for yourself.

Even without Extra Attack, Shillelagh can also benefit from SCAGtrips. That's 2d8+3/4 in Tier 2, 3d8+4/5 in Tier 3, and 4d8+5 in Tier 4, all of which outpace Thorn Whip's scaling d6 which will lag behind by 5-9 points at each Tier.

Shillelagh is also a weapon attack, so it can benefit from spells like Hunter's Mark or Divine Favor, or abilities like Divine Strike or Divine Smite, none of which can apply to Thorn Whip.

And while you did specify "without Extra Attack", it's important that unlike Thorn Whip, Shillelagh does benefit from Extra Attack if your build acquires that. That means you can be doing 2d8+10 (19 avg.) per turn, as early as Level 5 on something like a Ranger with Druidic Warrior fighting style. 2d8+10 (19 avg.) is even more than Thorn Whip's maximum damage of 4d6 (14 avg.) at Level 17.

[Man_Over_Game]

Even without Extra Attack, Shillelagh can also benefit from SCAGtrips. That's 2d8+3/4 in Tier 2, 3d8+4/5 in Tier 3, and 4d8+5 in Tier 4, all of which outpace Thorn Whip's scaling d6 which will lag behind by 5-9 points at each Tier.

Shillelagh is also a weapon attack, so it can benefit from spells like Hunter's Mark or Divine Favor, or abilities like Divine Strike or Divine Smite, none of which can apply to Thorn Whip.

And while you did specify "without Extra Attack", it's important that unlike Thorn Whip, Shillelagh does benefit from Extra Attack if your build acquires that. That means you can be doing 2d8+10 (19 avg.) per turn, as early as Level 5 on something like a Ranger with Druidic Warrior fighting style. 2d8+10 (19 avg.) is even more than Thorn Whip's maximum damage of 4d6 (14 avg.) at Level 17.

I agree, but I will say that most builds that would rely on Extra Attack are also wanting to increase their defensive stats. Shillelagh, in a lot of those instances, is redundant or irrelevant. It doesn't provide enough benefit that any generic "Weapon Attack" couldn't give you. At that point, you're spending a cantrip slot and your BA to make your attack magical.

Most characters who would already be maxing out their caster stat wouldn't have much of a reason to invest into Shillelagh (treating it as a weak cantrip attack), and those that aren't are just as well off making normal weapon attacks. Warlocks and Monks are really the only exceptions I can envision, and even then it's something that takes your entire build for it to be worthwhile.

I'd rather change it to be its own spell and use entirely. Like give it Concentration to allow you to cast a Touch spell upon hitting an enemy to end Shillelagh, with the attack roll of the chosen Touch spell having Advantage. It'd be useful in any character's arsenal without being something to really need building around, kinda like a combat-parallel of Mage Hand. In fact, it'd actually be difficult to abuse in this way despite being overall a lot stronger of a spell and scaling to the capabilities of the player (you'll get better touch spells over time, even if they are just scaling cantrips). By making its power level related to that of scaling cantrips, it itself will essentially be a scaling cantrip.

As-is, it looks a lot better than folks think it is because we expect enhancements and specializations to our default gameplay to be worthwhile (which is the same problem with the Champion). When really, it's like if I gave you a magic sword, just for you to give me a look when I explain that it "doesn't do anything special - it's just magical". Sure, it's better, but it's still less than you expected.

[sithlordnergal]

I agree, but I will say that most builds that would rely on Extra Attack are also wanting to increase their defensive stats. Shillelagh, in a lot of those instances, is redundant or irrelevant. It doesn't provide enough benefit that any generic "Weapon Attack" couldn't give you. At that point, you're spending a cantrip slot and your BA to make your attack magical.

Most characters who would already be maxing out their caster stat wouldn't have much of a reason to invest into Shillelagh (treating it as a weak cantrip attack), and those that aren't are just as well off making normal weapon attacks. Warlocks and Monks are really the only exceptions I can envision, and even then it's something that takes your entire build for it to be worthwhile.


You're missing the major benefit of Shillelagh, it turns that d6 or d4 weapon into a d8 weapon that you can use in one hand while still gaining the benefits of PAM, all without being Concentration. The magical bit doesn't really matter in this case. Its more the fact that you can be a Soradin with with a 21 base AC with no magic items while still benefiting from a d8 weapon and PAM. This is made even better when you find magical staves, because now you can use that staff as your primary weapon and still gain the benefits of Shillelagh.

Also, fun fact, if you're playing in Adventure's League, which has guaranteed loot from certain modules, Shillelagh can let a Soradin go nuts. Here's what ya do, get yourself s Staff of Power, +2 full plate, +3 shield, and a Ring/Cloak of Protection, all of which are obtainable via modules. Make sure you have Shillelagh and PAM as well. Use the Staff of Power, which states it is a +2 Quarterstaff and can be targeted by Shillelagh, as your main weapon, then cackle with evil glee as literally nothing can hit you because you have a base 29 AC, three attacks per round, and can not only smite, but can spend charges from the staff to add some bonus d6's to those Smites.



I'd rather change it to be its own spell and use entirely. Like give it Concentration to allow you to cast a Touch spell upon hitting an enemy to end Shillelagh, with the attack roll of the chosen Touch spell having Advantage. It'd be useful in any character's arsenal without being something to really need building around, kinda like a combat-parallel of Mage Hand. In fact, it'd actually be difficult to abuse in this way despite being overall a lot stronger of a spell and scaling to the capabilities of the player (you'll get better touch spells over time, even if they are just scaling cantrips). By making its power level related to that of scaling cantrips, it itself will essentially be a scaling cantrip.

...Also, are you saying to make Shillelagh a Concentration cantrip that ends after a successful attack to deal d8 scaling damage? And all it gives you as a rider is advantage? Or are you saying it would allow you to make Touch spell attacks with advantage and ends after you successfully hit? Cause either way, that would be a pretty horrible spell right there, on par with True Strike. Now, if it gave you advantage on attack rolls for an entire minute without ending, then I could see it being ok, but even then it'd be a waste of Concentration. Far worse then the current Shillelagh.

[GentlemanVoodoo]

IÂ’ve been reading through a ton of posts the last two days on optimizing for shillelagh. Many of them rely on PAM and hunters mark or hex - but the BA economy just doesnÂ’t seem to work for me. All 3 (Pam, shillelagh, and HM) require a BA. A fight is probably over by the 3rd or 4th round.

IÂ’ve seen some booming blade/ GFB options that are decent when paired with some concentration spells.

Are there any builds that actually work in terms of DPR? How does it compare to a baseline like the eldritch blast + Ag blast + hex (or whatever you use)?

I keep trying to make a Ranger (swarmkeeper or gloom) wis shillelagh work, but it just seems WAY inferior to any archery/sharpshooter build.

A Shillelagh build for DPR is not going to compare to the likes of Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast and Hex. As one person noted, Shillelagh's advantage is versatility and also due to the fact most weapon targeting spells like Heat Weapon won't work. After all you are using a stick.

If you are trying for a Ranger build to work with Shillelagh then I would consider the Hunter or the Horizon Walker subclasses. Simply speaking the Horizon Walker has Planar Warrior giving you the extra 1d8 force damage that does become 2d8 over time. Yes it is a two turn set up for you bonus action economy (turn 1 = activate Shillelagh, turn 2 = activate Planar Warrior feature) but its only two turns. The Hunter gives the option of the extra 1d8 die with Colossus Slayer and you are able to smack more targets with Whirlwind. Further, as Shillelagh acts as a magic weapon you are by passing potentially the defense of enemies as they come up such as Lycanthropes and so on.

Though if you are looking for a build with Shillelagh then the Celestial Warlock is one way to go, picking Pact of the Tome for the cantrip GFB. The Celestial patron bumps up the fire damage. As a personal experiment I have done a duel wielding Shillelagh Warlock using Pact of the Tome with the Hexblade Patron. It was decent enough to keep up with the Barbarian and Fighter in the group.

A similar idea is going with Draconic Sorcerer and picking either fire or lightning for the element type. Same strategy as with the Celestial Warlock but this way you have the choice of either BB or GFB. If UA is allowed at your table there is also the Gem Dragon options which you could also add Blade Burst to the mix if your DM agrees the new options can also apply to this subclass. The advantage of a Draconic Sorcerer in the general sense is that it also provides you with a decent defense option, the Toughness feat for free, and Meta Magic options. Of Meta Magic I would suggest:
- Distance Spell for range if needed
- Extend Spell to extend the time length of Shillelagh thus cutting down action economy demands in future battles
- Empowered Spell for bad dice roll prevention
- Quickened Spell to cut the casting time down of GFB or BB spell. You can combine with other spell using your normal action if needed
- Twinned Spell to pump out multiple uses.

Though OP without knowledge of what specifically you are choosing for your race, what else you wish to do with your class, if additional rules are in play (house rule or those from the books like Custom Lineages), your starting level, etc. these are at best general suggestions. If we had more then we can give more specific advice.

[LudicSavant]

Are there any builds that actually work in terms of DPR? How does it compare to a baseline like the eldritch blast + Ag blast + hex (or whatever you use)?

SCAGtrips can keep up with a basic Agonizing Eldritch Blast. As for Hex, that's competed with by other Concentration spells.

So for example, a tier 3 Eldritch Agonizing Blast might put out 3d10+15, but an Arcana Cleric's Booming Blade puts out 3d8+10, or 6d8+15 if they get the rider. Additionally, it's easier to get advantage on single melee attacks than on 3 ranged attacks.

If you're curious about scaling up into the late game, something like an Arcana Cleric is better off than ever at dealing direct damage, thanks to Tasha's. Summon Celestial scales very well, Harness Divine Power is often better than their default CD, and few things compete with stuff like Contingency, Simulacrum, and Wish in the late game. You can even chip in things like Animate Dead if you like.



As an aside:

I keep seeing mention of Spirit Shroud and Hex, but there's no reason your Concentration DPR-booster needs to be boosting your actual attack. There are all kinds of other things to concentrate on that boost your DPR.

I also sometimes see people trying to make some specific tool to do everything. But the good builds that take Shillelagh often own entire tool workshops, there's no reason they should ever be using their screwdriver to pound a nail when they own four different types of hammers.

[Pex]

Eldritch blast is a single cantrip that can hold up fairly well.

I’m talking about builds around Shillelagh, not just grabbing the cantrip and calling it a day.

Perhaps, PAM + spirit shroud + something else makes it a viable damage dealer. Idk. That’s why I made the post.

I’m also aware that you’re giving up damage to gain spell power and versatility. I just wonder if losing 50% of your dmg (or whatever it is) is worth a 10% boost in spell and class feature power (upping your spell DC). Maybe it saves you an ASI that helps your numbers?

Again, this is why I’m asking maybe I need to crunch the numbers.

For a Tomelock Shillelagh + Booming Blade and/or Green Flame Blade is not a bad thing. No matter how cool Agonizing Eldritch Blast is, you will be in melee. It cannot be avoided forever. This is true for everyone, so it is nice to have this as a viable thing to do. It doesn't have to be the Best Thing Ever. It's enough that it is good enough.

[solidork]

I played an EK 5/Celestial Tomelock 3 to EK 8/Tomelock 9 that used Shillelagh for melee and thoroughly enjoyed it.

He was a solid 'B-' at pretty much every aspect of the game which is what I wanted.

[RogueJK]

A similar idea is going with Draconic Sorcerer and picking either fire or lightning for the element type. Same strategy as with the Celestial Warlock but this way you have the choice of either BB or GFB.

Booming Blade does Thunder damage, not Lightning. None of the Draconic Sorcerer bloodlines are associated with Thunder. So even with Draconic Sorcerer, your only option for the Level 6 bonus damage on a SCAGtrip is going with Fire and Green Flame Blade. No advantage over Celestial Warlock there.


The advantage of a Draconic Sorcerer in the general sense is that it also provides you with ... the Toughness feat for free

Half of Tough[ness]. The Tough feat adds +2 HP per level. Draconic Sorcerer gets +1 HP per level.

Additionally, Draconic Sorcerers only have a d6 Hit Dice, versus the d8 hit dice of a Warlock. So with their +1 bonus HP, it's a wash. (Both 1d6+1 and 1d8 average out to 4.5, rounded up to 5.) No advantage over Celestial Warlock there either.

In fact, the Draconic Sorcerer would actually be 1 HP behind the Warlock, due to the Max HP at 1st level rule. A Warlock would get 8 HP at 1st level, whereas a Draconic Sorcerer would only get 7, and they'd both then gain the same average HP per level from there.


- Quickened Spell to cut the casting time down of GFB or BB spell. You can combine with other spell using your normal action if needed


Other way around... Player's Handbook on page 202, under Casting Time - Bonus Action, states that if you cast a spell or cantrip as a Bonus Action, the only thing you can cast with your Action is a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action. So if you Quicken BB or GFB as a Bonus Action, you can't combine it with another leveled spell cast using your action, only another cantrip.

This means that you could, however, Quicken the leveled spell and then use your Action to cast the BB/GFB cantrip.

[Aaedimus]

Other way around... Player's Handbook on page 202, under Casting Time - Bonus Action, states that if you cast a spell or cantrip as a Bonus Action, the only thing you can cast with your Action is a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action. So if you Quicken BB or GFB as a Bonus Action, you can't combine it with another leveled spell cast using your action, only another cantrip.

However, this means that you could Quicken the leveled spell and then use your Action to cast the BB/GFB cantrip.


This is 100% true. In my opinion, it's also so dumb because since it doesn't matter what order you take your action/bonus action in other than the semantics that you followed the rules, there is literally no difference between what actually occurs in both scenarios when you're using quicken spell. It's just something people point out to nitpick.

The only instance I could think of that this would actually matter is that it makes prepping shillelagh and casting a leveled spell on the same turn illegal because you can't switch the action types (like you can with a quickened spell). Not only is this something that almost never comes up, if it was legal it would change nothing.

[diplomancer]

This is 100% true. In my opinion, it's also so dumb because since it doesn't matter what order you take your action/bonus action in other than the semantics that you followed the rules, there is literally no difference between what actually occurs in both scenarios when you're using quicken spell. It's just something people point out to nitpick.

The only instance I could think of that this would actually matter is that it makes prepping shillelagh and casting a leveled spell on the same turn illegal because you can't switch the action types (like you can with a quickened spell). Not only is this something that almost never comes up, if it was legal it would change nothing.

Or Magic Stone. But yes, in my experience at least, DMs DO let you cast a bonus action cantrip and a levelled spell at the same turn, they just don't let you cast a bonus action levelled spell and an action levelled spell.

[RingoBongo]

I am building a tempest cleric 8+ / swarm keeper 4+ (flavoring my swarm as ultra sonic barrage of force) with magic initiate (find familiar, booming blade, and dm allowed lightning lure as wisdom spell but this build works without still), war caster, and PAM.

Take druidic warrior from ranger for shillelagh and thorn whip.

At a certain point you will be able to: start with Bonus Action for shillelagh if you can't precast, then use action for thorn whip, pull to within 5 feet, shillelagh quarter staff with PAM Booming blade as your reaction (on your own turn), and then push back 15 ft with free action gathered swarm. Eats up reaction but does a fair bit of damage fairly consistently with 2 cantrips per round+ bonus action stuff like zephyr strike, healing word, spiritual weapon, misty step, shield of faith...

The other glorious aspect of this build is you can still concentrate on a big cleric spell in spirit guardians and dimension door... Etc. Next step: resilient con.

I chose tempest to fit the theme but you can also do some nasty damage with tempest cleric channel divinity (and upcasted thunderwaves at max damage). Other clerics work too.

[MaxWilson]

This is 100% true. In my opinion, it's also so dumb because since it doesn't matter what order you take your action/bonus action in other than the semantics that you followed the rules, there is literally no difference between what actually occurs in both scenarios when you're using quicken spell. It's just something people point out to nitpick.

The only instance I could think of that this would actually matter is that it makes prepping shillelagh and casting a leveled spell on the same turn illegal because you can't switch the action types (like you can with a quickened spell). Not only is this something that almost never comes up, if it was legal it would change nothing.

The main thing is that it prevents you from casting e.g. Careful Sickening Radiance and Quickened Eldritch Blast in the same round. You have to choose between Careful [spell] and Eldritch Blast, can't have both in the same turn. Same applies to most other metamagics of course but Careful is one for which you really notice the lack.

[ff7hero]

The main thing is that it prevents you from casting e.g. Careful Sickening Radiance and Quickened Eldritch Blast in the same round. You have to choose between Careful [spell] and Eldritch Blast, can't have both in the same turn. Same applies to most other metamagics of course but Careful is one for which you really notice the lack.

Less specific, but still situational, it forces you to commit to Quickening your leveled spell if you only might want to also cast a Cantrip.

Fireballing that horde of goblins? If you don't Quicken and one makes his save and survives, you can't Quicken Firebolt to try to finish him off.

[CMCC]

I am building a tempest cleric 8+ / swarm keeper 4+ (flavoring my swarm as ultra sonic barrage of force) with magic initiate (find familiar, booming blade, and dm allowed lightning lure as wisdom spell but this build works without still), war caster, and PAM.

Take druidic warrior from ranger for shillelagh and thorn whip.

At a certain point you will be able to: start with Bonus Action for shillelagh if you can't precast, then use action for thorn whip, pull to within 5 feet, shillelagh quarter staff with PAM Booming blade as your reaction (on your own turn), and then push back 15 ft with free action gathered swarm. Eats up reaction but does a fair bit of damage fairly consistently with 2 cantrips per round+ bonus action stuff like zephyr strike, healing word, spiritual weapon, misty step, shield of faith...

The other glorious aspect of this build is you can still concentrate on a big cleric spell in spirit guardians and dimension door... Etc. Next step: resilient con.

I chose tempest to fit the theme but you can also do some nasty damage with tempest cleric channel divinity (and upcasted thunderwaves at max damage). Other clerics work too.

Dimension door? Also I’m not clear what tempest brings to the table here.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

IÂ’ve been reading through a ton of posts the last two days on optimizing for shillelagh. Many of them rely on PAM and hunters mark or hex - but the BA economy just doesnÂ’t seem to work for me. All 3 (Pam, shillelagh, and HM) require a BA. A fight is probably over by the 3rd or 4th round.

IÂ’ve seen some booming blade/ GFB options that are decent when paired with some concentration spells.

Are there any builds that actually work in terms of DPR? How does it compare to a baseline like the eldritch blast + Ag blast + hex (or whatever you use)?

I keep trying to make a Ranger (swarmkeeper or gloom) wis shillelagh work, but it just seems WAY inferior to any archery/sharpshooter build.
A few thoughts:
If you are able to stealth/ scout it's possible to mitigate some of the bonus action duplication and get it out of the way before the fight starts. On a Ranger, particularly some subclasses like Gloomstalker, it's probably the goal to do this regularly.
2) My main concern over this build would be armor class and other dex based abilities, in the sense that making a 'SAD' Ranger character based on Wisdom really isn't possible. Your job is fighting and you've basically committed to not raise dex, so you are going to be taking a lot of hits because of AC. You've also got initiative, saving throw, and proficiency (like stealth and acrobatics) concerns.
3) Sharpshooter is good, but my experience is that there are times with my Ranger multi-class where I take the -5 penalty and times where I don't. By tier 3 my guy could be rolling a lot of damage dice (particularly on the first shot of the round) and sometimes the math just said don't take the penalty. Eliminating range and cover penalties is, of course, great.

While I've never tried what you are suggesting on a Ranger, I'd say the benefit doesn't really outweigh what you are putting into it. Ranger doesn't really have that many abilities that already key off of Wisdom, and a 14-16 is generally considered adequate for the few attack spells you are going to be casting. Dex is used for a lot, not just your attack stat.
By comparison something like a Paladin who takes a dip into Hexblade gets a lot more and gives up a lot less by trying to go SAD chr. Besides the spells, Charisma is the stat for Channel Divinity and the OP 6th level aura. Strength doesn't apply to initiative, is an uncommon save, and only applies to 1 skill.

[RogueJK]

Your job is fighting and you've basically committed to not raise dex, so you are going to be taking a lot of hits because of AC.

No, not really. A DEX-based Ranger with max DEX and a WIS-based Ranger with 14 DEX are going to have basically the same AC.

DEX-based with 20 Dex and Studded Leather = 17 AC or 19 AC with a Shield

WIS-based with 14 DEX and Splint or Breastplate = 16 AC or 18 with a Shield
WIS-based with 14 DEX and Half Plate = 17 AC or 19 with a Shield


You can easily start with a 14 DEX. You can't easily start with a 20 DEX. (Really generous stat rolls aside, most characters tend to start with a 16 or 17 in their primary stat.)

So at most, a DEX-based Light Armor Ranger could have 1 higher point of AC than some Medium Armor Rangers, and that's only after pumping their DEX up to 20 using several ASIs, which likely won't be until Level 8+ (or even longer if they take a feat like Sharpshooter or whatever at 4th/8th instead of pumping DEX). Prior to maxing DEX, the Light Armor Ranger will have a 15/17 AC (16 DEX) or 16/18 AC (18 DEX). Whereas a WIS-based Medium Armor Ranger that starts with 14 DEX can have 16/18 AC from Level 1.

This means a 14 DEX/16 WIS Medium Armor Ranger will have the higher AC for at least the first 4 levels, compared to a Light Armor Ranger starting 16 DEX/14 WIS. And then once they acquire Half Plate armor, they'll have the same AC as a 20 DEX Light Armor Ranger, and they can most likely get their hands on a set several levels before the average Light Armor Ranger can max their DEX to 20.


You've also got initiative, saving throw, and proficiency (like stealth and acrobatics) concerns.

Yes, DEX-based saves and skills like Stealth, Slight of Hand, and Acrobatics will be lower (especially if they're wearing non-Breastplate Medium Armor and therefore have Disadvantage on Stealth checks), but their WIS-based saves and skills like Animal Handling, Survival, Perception, and Insight will be higher in return. One's not necessarily worse than the other, just different. Not all Rangers have to be sneaky, stealthy, and lithe.

In fact, it could be argued that WIS saves are more important the DEX, since failed DEX saves often only result in HP damage, whereas failed WIS saves usually result in debilitating status effects that can completely remove you from the fight or impact your actions. And Perception checks are undeniably the most-used skill check in the game.

The point about a lower Initiative is valid, though. (Unless we're talking Gloomstalker Rangers who get +WIS to Initiative, in which case it's a wash.) But the tradeoff is that the WIS-based Ranger's spellcasting will be more potent than the DEX-based Ranger. Plus certain subclasses have useful abilities that greatly benefit from a high WIS, such as Swarmkeeper and Fey Wanderer Rangers.

Diff'rent strokes.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

No, not really. A DEX-based Ranger with max DEX and a WIS-based Ranger with 14 DEX are going to have basically the same AC.

DEX-based with 20 Dex and Studded Leather = 17 AC or 19 AC with a Shield

WIS-based with 14 DEX and Splint or Breastplate = 16 AC or 18 with a Shield
WIS-based with 14 DEX and Half Plate = 17 AC or 19 with a Shield


You can easily start with a 14 DEX. You can't easily start with a 20 DEX. (Really generous stat rolls aside, most characters tend to start with a 16 or 17 in their primary stat.)

So at most, a DEX-based Light Armor Ranger could have 1 higher point of AC than some Medium Armor Rangers, and that's only after pumping their DEX up to 20 using several ASIs, which likely won't be until Level 8+ (or even longer if they take a feat like Sharpshooter or whatever at 4th/8th instead of pumping DEX). Prior to maxing DEX, the Light Armor Ranger will have a 15/17 AC (16 DEX) or 16/18 AC (18 DEX). Whereas a WIS-based Medium Armor Ranger that starts with 14 DEX can have 16/18 AC from Level 1.

This means a 14 DEX/16 WIS Medium Armor Ranger will have the higher AC for at least the first 4 levels, compared to a Light Armor Ranger starting 16 DEX/14 WIS. And then once they acquire Half Plate armor, they'll have the same AC as a 20 DEX Light Armor Ranger, and they can most likely get their hands on a set several levels before the average Light Armor Ranger can max their DEX to 20.



Yes, DEX-based saves and skills like Stealth, Slight of Hand, and Acrobatics will be lower (especially if they're wearing non-Breastplate Medium Armor and therefore have Disadvantage on Stealth checks), but their WIS-based saves and skills like Animal Handling, Survival, Perception, and Insight will be higher in return. One's not necessarily worse than the other, just different. Not all Rangers have to be sneaky, stealthy, and lithe.

In fact, it could be argued that WIS saves are more important the DEX, since failed DEX saves often only result in HP damage, whereas failed WIS saves usually result in nasty status effects. And Perception checks are undeniably the most-used skill check in the game.

The point about a lower Initiative is valid, though. (Unless we're talking Gloomstalker Rangers who get +WIS to Initiative, in which case it's a wash.) But the tradeoff is that the WIS-based Ranger's spellcasting will be more potent than the DEX-based Ranger. Plus certain subclasses have useful abilities that greatly benefit from a high WIS, such as Swarmkeeper and Fey Wanderer Rangers.

Diff'rent strokes.
I don't disagree with what you are saying. This build invloves trading one of the key parts of your secondary stat with your primary stat to essentially make Wisdom more crutial than Dex for this character. Yes, both are important both in the game and to this character. My point was, particularly with the comparison to Paladin with a Hexblade dip is that this does not make this character SAD. This isn't as much of a net gain as it is a trade off, and if you are having to make investments to get it, such as using feats to get cantrips or fighting in a way that isn't optimal, then I wouldn't bother. The Paladin situation, on the other hand, allows you to pump Chr instead of Str, which has a lot more game applications.

[meandean]

The only instance I could think of that this would actually matter is that it makes prepping shillelagh and casting a leveled spell on the same turn illegal because you can't switch the action types (like you can with a quickened spell). Not only is this something that almost never comes up, if it was legal it would change nothing.I disagree with that. If you could shillelagh and spirit guardians on the same turn, that'd make a big difference to the Arcana/Nature Cleric shillelagh build.

[CMCC]

I disagree with that. If you could shillelagh and spirit guardians on the same turn, that'd make a big difference to the Arcana/Nature Cleric shillelagh build.

That’s my primary issue with that arcana build. And if you want to throw up spiritual weapon too - yikes.

[LudicSavant]

I disagree with that. If you could shillelagh and spirit guardians on the same turn, that'd make a big difference to the Arcana/Nature Cleric shillelagh build.

Yep, this.


That’s my primary issue with that arcana build. And if you want to throw up spiritual weapon too - yikes.

Personally, I rarely cast all 3 of those after initiative starts. Usually one or two -- or completely different spells, as the situation dictates. I rarely cast buffs on turn 2+ unless I expect those buffs to last into additional combats (or I expect an exceptionally long fight).

As an example, if I were in the following situation (completely unaware a fight was going to start, nothing up when init is rolled, expect a fight around 3 rounds or so), instead of SG + SW + Shillelagh, I might do SG -> Thorn Whip to pull someone into SG and teammate hazards (and Shillelagh on the same turn) --> Booming Blade. Using just one spell slot, getting some combo damage, maybe having SG up for an additional fight.

The thing is, you don't actually need Shillelagh to "keep up," because being a SAD caster with Potent Toll the Dead is already able to give you a solid baseline cantrip. Shillelagh gets you more than TtD when you have an opportunity to use it. It's a bonus, not a necessity.

Like, the build has Thorn Whip. That doesn't mean that it's a "Thorn Whip build" that needs to find a way to use Thorn Whip for every situation. You don't need to try to force a square peg into a round hole. Just use Shillelagh when it's convenient, usually as a pre-cast.

While it doesn't happen all the time, you will often have situations where you already have Shillelagh or a duration Concentration spell (like Summon Celestial or Spirit Guardians) when the fight starts. Being able to take advantage of those times adds a lot of value.

Also worth noting, Clerics have great Perception. Take advantage of it and divinations and such to reduce the amount that you get blindsided by encounters.


As far as casting it every 30 seconds, I've found that players are generally pretty reasonable if the DM is reasonable. When the players are on the move, kicking down doors, I have no problem with someone obsessively casting Shillelagh every thirty seconds or so, any more than I have a problem with someone obsessively checking their ammo.

But when the players are stationary for hours, and a player says "I keep casting Shillelagh", I find that if I say, "Really? I was okay with it when you were moving--casting Shillelagh ten times in eight minutes is perfectly reasonable. But are you really going to cast Shillelagh hundreds of times over the next eight hours? That's like trying to sing Ten Thousand Bottles of Beer on the Wall--nothing prevents you from doing it, but are you really going to?" If I say this, then players are likely to shrug and say, "Okay, then I cast it as soon as something suspicious happens," and I agree, and now the player gets what they want (Shillelagh is usually available outside of truly surprising threats, like werewolves suddenly attacking you while you're reading in a library) and yet I get what I want (dozens of Shillelaghs per day instead of thousands).

This is about how I see it as well. I would expect players to be having Shillelagh up basically whenever they would have reason to be "on guard." But not just when they're casually strolling about town.

If a DM won't even let you cast Shillelagh when you're kicking down doors, then that alters things -- you might consider just dropping Magic Initiate for another nice feat, like, I dunno, Aberrant Dragonmark.

[diplomancer]

This is about how I see it as well. I would expect players to be having Shillelagh up basically whenever they would have reason to be "on guard." But not just when they're casually strolling about town.

If a DM won't even let you cast Shillelagh when you're kicking down doors, then that alters things -- you might consider just dropping Magic Initiate for another nice feat, like, I dunno, Aberrant Dragonmark.

I can see that, but wouldn't you say that doing it every 30 seconds would at least give something like disadvantage on stealth (maybe not a problem if you're already wearing heavy armor)?

[LudicSavant]

I can see that, but wouldn't you say that doing it every 30 seconds would at least give something like disadvantage on stealth (maybe not a problem if you're already wearing heavy armor)?

Yeah, basically. Not very suitable for a stealth party, not a problem in a clanky party.

You should always consider your party composition and table when choosing your build.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Yeah, basically. Not very suitable for a stealth party, not a problem in a clanky party.

You should always consider your party composition and table when choosing your build.

I'd say the issue goes beyond just the party. The OP was considering Gloomstalker, and this character might be one of, if not the, scout for the group. On top of that many Gloomstalker builds are multiclassing into Rogues or other classes where the goal is to gain surprise and hit hard and first. This Shillelagh Wisdom based Ranger build is making less sense to me the more ideas other posters bring forward.

[RogueJK]

I'd say the issue goes beyond just the party. The OP was considering Gloomstalker, and this character might be one of, if not the, scout for the group. On top of that many Gloomstalker builds are multiclassing into Rogues or other classes where the goal is to gain surprise and hit hard and first. This Shillelagh Wisdom based Ranger build is making less sense to me the more ideas other posters bring forward.

Yes, Gloomstalkers specifically benefit more than others from being DEX-based with Light Armor, precisely because they're more geared towards being a stealthy/sneaky/scouty subclass. (Especially if they multiclass into Rogue, which itself would render Shillelagh rather useless since it couldn't trigger Sneak Attack.)

However, the OP wasn't considering only Gloomstalker; they were also considering Swarmkeeper. And something like a Swarmkeeper, Hunter, or Fey Wanderer can easily be built as a WIS-based melee build with Medium Armor and only a 14 DEX, with no emphasis on stealth. It depends on the type of character you want to play, your role in the party, and the party composition, as Ludic stated. Not all Ranger characters are required to be the stealthy scout of the group, or an archer.

There's nothing inherent to the Ranger class that pushes you towards being DEX-based, unlike with the Rogue who only gets Light Armor and needs to use a Finesse or Ranged weapon anyway for Sneak Attack purposes. (And even a Rogue can be built as STR-based, with the help of a multiclass dip or the Moderately Armored feat.)

Rather, Rangers are perfectly capable of being played as the "moderately armored melee" type, either STR-based or now WIS-based thanks to Druidic Warrior. Either way, you end up with a Ranger that's kinda like a more skilled and nature-focused melee Fighter with some spells, or a more melee-focused Nature Cleric/Druid type.

WIS-based Ranger builds also open up some interesting multiclass options, like Arcana Cleric or Stars Druid.

[LudicSavant]

I'd say the issue goes beyond just the party. The OP was considering Gloomstalker, and this character might be one of, if not the, scout for the group. On top of that many Gloomstalker builds are multiclassing into Rogues or other classes where the goal is to gain surprise and hit hard and first. This Shillelagh Wisdom based Ranger build is making less sense to me the more ideas other posters bring forward.

I wasn’t talking about the Ranger, I was talking about the Cleric.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I wasn’t talking about the Ranger, I was talking about the Cleric.

Fair enough. On a Cleric or Druid I think Shillelagh probably makes more sense. A character is already more reliant on Wisdom (and less so for Dex based skills), being a primary spellcaster and using Chanel Divinity, so getting to attack with the same stat really does get closer to a SAD build.

[MaxWilson]

There's nothing inherent to the Ranger class that pushes you towards being DEX-based, unlike with the Rogue who only gets Light Armor and needs to use a Finesse or Ranged weapon anyway for Sneak Attack purposes. (And even a Rogue can be built as STR-based, with the help of a multiclass dip or the Moderately Armored feat.)

I think the lack of Heavy Armor proficiency counts as pushing Rangers towards Dex, as does the Dex 13 Wis 13 multiclassing requirement. Trying to play a Str 16+ Dex 10ish Ranger is inherently awkward in the same way as trying to play a Str 10ish Dex 16 Paladin. It's not impossible, but it's awkward and the opportunity cost is high.

[Dork_Forge]

I think the lack of Heavy Armor proficiency counts as pushing Rangers towards Dex, as does the Dex 13 Wis 13 multiclassing requirement. Trying to play a Str 16+ Dex 10ish Ranger is inherently awkward in the same way as trying to play a Str 10ish Dex 16 Paladin. It's not impossible, but it's awkward and the opportunity cost is high.

Wait is that primarily about multiclassing? Playing a straight sword and board Paladin, you'd arguably be better off with Dex over Str if you're not going to go for great weapons. You lose 1 AC, but gain the ability to switch hit along with the benfits of having a good Dex (initiative, skills etc.).

A good example of this is the Sorlock Sorcadin in one of my games, he uses heavy armor and sword and board, but a 10 Dex has bitten him in the butt numerous times whilst he gained no real benefit from the Str.

[MaxWilson]

Wait is that primarily about multiclassing? Playing a straight sword and board Paladin, you'd arguably be better off with Dex over Str if you're not going to go for great weapons. You lose 1 AC, but gain the ability to switch hit along with the benfits of having a good Dex (initiative, skills etc.).

A good example of this is the Sorlock in one of my games, he uses heavy armor and sword and board, but a 10 Dex has bitten him... numerous times whilst he gained no real benefit from the Str.

The opportunity cost is partly about multiclassing, more for the Paladin than the Ranger because of padlock, but the Str Ranger is also presumably forgoing Archery style + Sharpshooter which hurts his damage (Dueling is decent but not as good); he's making it harder for himself to use Spike Growth effectively; he's making a Conjure Animals both a boon and a curse (interferes with his ability to get into melee) instead of strictly a boon. That kind of thing (plus the medium armor issue, so you still need Dex and are MAD) is what I had in mind. Rangers just work so well as archers, and he's giving that up, and I'm not sure what he's even getting in return except better grappling.

P.S. Padlocks gain more from Str than Sorlocks do because of how Extra Attack interacts with grappling/etc.

[Dork_Forge]

The opportunity cost is partly about multiclassing, more for the Paladin than the Ranger because of padlock, but the Str Ranger is also presumably forgoing Archery style + Sharpshooter which hurts his damage (Dueling is decent but not as good); he's making it harder for himself to use Spike Growth effectively; he's making a Conjure Animals both a boon and a curse (interferes with his ability to get into melee) instead of strictly a boon. That kind of thing (plus the medium armor issue, so you still need Dex and are MAD) is what I had in mind. Rangers just work so well as archers, and he's giving that up, and I'm not sure what he's even getting in return except better grappling.

P.S. Padlocks gain more from Str than Sorlocks do because of how Extra Attack interacts with grappling/etc.

Well I did a stupid, I said Sorlock, I meant Sorcadin (Paladin 5/Divine Soul Sorc 3), sorry about that.

Oh I 100% agree about Str not being anywhere near as good for a Ranger, whilst it is doable, you'll always need and want at least +2 Dex to get by. I was just confused what was awkward/high opp cost for a Dexadin was all, it seems primarily MCing based, but as a DM I change the prereq on Paladins to Str/Dex + Cha, because it doens't make sense to me to keep it Str, so I'm probably biased in what I've seen at my tables.

[RogueJK]

That kind of thing (plus the medium armor issue, so you still need Dex and are MAD) is what I had in mind.

A WIS-based Ranger is no more MAD than a DEX-based ranger. WIS-based has one primary stat (WIS) and two secondary stats (CON and DEX). DEX-based has one primary stat (DEX) and two secondary stats (CON and WIS). You're just swapping which stat you're focusing on.

A STR-based Ranger is more MAD, with one primary stat and three secondary stats. But that's part of what makes the new opportunity to be a WIS-based melee Ranger with Shillelagh such a useful option.

[MaxWilson]

A WIS-based Ranger is no more MAD than a DEX-based ranger. WIS-based has one primary stat (WIS) and two secondary stats (CON and DEX). DEX-based has one primary stat (DEX) and two secondary stats (CON and WIS). You're just swapping which stat you're focusing on.

A STR-based Ranger is more MAD, with one primary stat and three secondary stats. But that's part of what makes the new opportunity to be a WIS-based melee Ranger with Shillelagh such a useful option.

Acknowledged, but then you

(1) need to multiclass (requiring Dex) or spend a feat (that could have gone towards Resilient (Wis)) to get shillelagh**, and

**or play with Tasha's, and STILL miss out on a fighting style and the benefits of Archery etc., see point #2.

(2) still suffer all the other opportunity cost consequences I mentioned such as Conjure Animals and Spike Growth becoming less useful.

In exchange you get... slightly higher DCs on your Ensnaring Strike and more healing from Cure Wounds? The best Ranger spells aren't Wisdom-dependent in the first place!

The opportunity cost just seems too high compared to the benefit.

Color me unimpressed.

[Stangler]

The key to a build like this IMO is to take advantage of a shield, multi attack, and duelling fighting style. Ideally bugbear as race for reach. SAD wisdom is only ok.

Straight casters and GWM/PAM or SS/xbow are better for sure. Smite builds too. You will still be solid though so if it fits your concept you can totally go for it.

[Witty Username]

I don't disagree with what you are saying. This build invloves trading one of the key parts of your secondary stat with your primary stat to essentially make Wisdom more crutial than Dex for this character. Yes, both are important both in the game and to this character. My point was, particularly with the comparison to Paladin with a Hexblade dip is that this does not make this character SAD. This isn't as much of a net gain as it is a trade off, and if you are having to make investments to get it, such as using feats to get cantrips or fighting in a way that isn't optimal, then I wouldn't bother. The Paladin situation, on the other hand, allows you to pump Chr instead of Str, which has a lot more game applications.
I don't think hexblade/paladin is as cut and dry as that. You still want a 13 str to multiclass, and you probably want 15 to avoid the speed reduction (dwarves and wood elves need not apply). Also, you miss out on athletics and encumbrance which can be necessary for some out of combat stuff (lifting heavy gates or jumping pits to help set up rope lines have come to mind). and if you go for SAD you will be weak to grapples and shoves.
Most of this is DM dependent, so the point stands. But I would disagree that hexblade doesn't involve tradeoffs.

[Waistcoatwill]

I've recently been playing a Shillelagh/BB Tortle Spore Druid in PotA and easily keeping up with the rest of the party in terms of damage. Using summons alongside Shillelagh has been a very efficient use of spell slots, and relying on combat cantrips has made it very easy to keep allies up with healing word. The main issue is that it's really repetitive and I'm starting to get bored in a way I haven't with other casters.

[Keravath]

I find Shillelagh to have fairly limited usefulness.

1) It increases the damage of a one handed staff to d8 from d6 - increase of 1 DPR
2) It counts as a magical weapon

Neither of these are really that compelling

3) Shillelagh allows the character to use wisdom (their casting stat) for attack and damage bonus when using the weapon. (or charisma in the case of a Tomelock).

Finally

4) Shillelagh costs your bonus action on the first round of combat AND it counts as casting a bonus action spell so if you cast shillelagh you can only cast cantrips if you want to cast other spells.

----

Putting this together - Shillelagh is a means to make a character less MAD if they want to be able to make a melee weapon attack at the cost of a bonus action on the first round of combat. That is all the spell does.

Combining shillelagh with booming blade or green flame blade is sub-optimal compared to any other magical weapon except for a character that focuses on increasing their casting stat and may not have a decent casting stat. However, for a character with a 16 attack stat and 20 casting stat - a +2 weapon will be as good as shillelagh. Though this can be improved if using a staff by casting shillelagh and getting both the casting stat to hit/damage and the magical weapon bonuses.

The biggest problem though is the inefficiency of the bonus action competition.
- for clerics (like an arcana cleric with MI:Druid) - there is too much competition for the bonus action to make shillelagh work well. Spirit guardians and spiritual weapon are probably both higher priorities meaning that shillelagh doesn't get cast until the third round (assuming by that point that the cleric isn't using healing word).
- for druids - by tier 2 they may be well starting a fight with a spell like conjure animals thus delaying casting of shillelagh until the second round at least.
- tomelock can make it work but a hexblade picks up the charisma attack ability with any weapon which will be more efficient than shillelagh so a hexblade tomelock with a magical weapon will keep up or outpace the celestial tomelock but can use the charisma to hit with a much wider range of weapons.

Anyway, there are builds that can be made that will make use of shillelagh but honestly they aren't that great though some of them can be ok.

[LudicSavant]

Combining shillelagh with booming blade or green flame blade is sub-optimal compared to any other magical weapon

Shillelagh works on already-magic weapons.

[solidork]

Shillelagh works on already-magic weapons.

I got a randomly rolled Staff of Thunder and Lightning on my Fighter/Warlock and it was pretty baller with Shillelagh.

[JeffreyGator]

One more agreement that is holds up well for the Celestial Tomelock with GFB.

Mine is about to hit tier 4 and d8+6+2d8+4 fire (and maybe another 2d8+4 fire) is in the middle of the pack for our party.

About equal to our Drunk with 2xd10+5 and d6+3. Less than the sorcadin with 2x(2d6+6/7 + 2d6)

And the character dumped str and has only 14 dex and uses CHA for everything.

Small fights a lock isn't going to big spells and so this competes with eldritch blast (or even better since this particular lock uses Firebolt instead and gets 1-2 utility invocations back)

[mistajames]

In T1 it's fine if you don't have another use for your bonus action. A melee attack at 1d8+Wis at level 1 isn't great, but it's not terrible either. The fact that it's a magical weapon can be relevant too.

After level 5, it's usually bad. On top of the fact that it uses a Bonus Action to activate (which you can use for more useful things) it doesn't give you access to Extra Attack or anything else that would otherwise scale its damage. You're basically giving up a Bonus Action to not be MAD. You then need to find a source of Extra Attack and other attack options in order to scale your damage.

Alternatively, you could just play a Hexblade or a real martial character. Or just use a scaling cantrip like Thorn Whip or Produce Flame.

Not really worth the trade.

[RogueJK]

After level 5, it's usually bad. On top of the fact that it uses a Bonus Action to activate (which you can use for more useful things) it doesn't give you access to Extra Attack or anything else that would otherwise scale its damage. You're basically giving up a Bonus Action to not be MAD. You then need to find a source of Extra Attack and other attack options in order to scale your damage.


Shillelagh Rangers with Druidic Warrior fighting style don't have to look elsewhere for Extra Attack to scale their damage, it's part of their class.

Shillelagh Tomelocks don't have to look elsewhere for a SCAGtrip to scale their damage, it's part of their class. (Bonus points for Celestial Tomelocks using Shillelagh+GFB, who get even more bonus damage.)

Shillelagh Druid/Nature Cleric High Elfs or High Half Elfs don't have to look elsewhere for a SCAGtrip to scale their damage, it's part of their race.

None of the above require multiclassing or feats in order to get options to scale their Shillelagh damage.


And it's not giving up every Bonus Action. It's only one Bonus Action per combat, unless you have the opportunity to pre-cast Shillelagh, in which case it's none. That can be a good trade for being WIS/CHA SAD, especially for those that don't have many uses for their Bonus Action, or only occasionally use their Bonus Action on some turns.

[Garresh]

Nobody here is mentioning the greatest trait of shisghetti. A warrior to be as wise as he is strong. A magic initiate fighter who primaries Wisdom is therefore the ultimate warrior. You can even go Dwarf so you can use heavy armor without strength at no penalty.

[RogueJK]

Nobody here is mentioning the greatest trait of shisghetti. A warrior to be as wise as he is strong. A magic initiate fighter who primaries Wisdom is therefore the ultimate warrior. You can even go Dwarf so you can use heavy armor without strength at no penalty.

That would mesh well with a Samurai Fighter. They get +WIS to Persuasion, and WIS save proficiency.

Wouldn't even need to specifically take Magic Initiate Druid. A Wood Elf Fighter could take the Wood Elf Magic feat, which nets you a Druid cantrip. That just means no Heavy Armor.

That'd look something like:
Wood Elf Samurai Fighter 12, using medium armor, a staff, and a shield.
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 15+1
INT 8
WIS 15+2
CHA 10
Feats: Wood Elf Magic, Elven Accuracy (+1 WIS), Polearm Master, +2 WIS
Fighter Skills: Insight, Acrobatics
Samurai Skill: Persuasion
Background Skills: Survival and Stealth
Racial Skill: Perception

With the Dueling fighting style, that's 3x 1d8+7 attacks per turn, plus a fourth 1d4+7 BA PAM attack on every turn you don't activate Shillelagh or Fighting Spirit. (You could also drop PAM in favor a different feat, if you're worried about Bonus Action clog.)

Plus, the high WISMOD, +WIS to Persuasion, and Persuasion/Insight proficiencies makes you a passable Face (from level 7+ at least). High WIS helps the elven racial Perception proficiency, and Survival too. And Pass Without Trace from Wood Elf Magic combined with Stealth proficiency and a moderate DEX means you can be stealthy when needed, especially if you're just wearing a Breastplate (no Disadvantage to stealth).

Not super optimized (especially considering it'd be a great crit-fisher but yet its crits aren't that impressive since you have no additional damage dice), but seems like a fun and well-rounded character to play, being useful both in and out of combat (unlike a lot of Fighters out there), and being quite a change from what you usually see in most Fighter builds.


The VHuman version of that would look something like:
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 14+1
INT 8
WIS 15+1
CHA 12
Feats: Magic Initiate Druid, Polearm Master, +2 WIS, Crusher (+1 CON), +2 WIS
Drop Stealth for Perception proficiency.
This one gets you a 2nd cantrip, so you can also pick up a ranged cantrip option like Thorn Whip/Produce Flame/Magic Stone. Plus a daily 1st level spell like Goodberry or Absorb Elements. Unfortunately, it means giving up the sweet Triple Advantage from Elven Accuracy.


The Heavy Armor Dwarf version would look something like this:
STR 10
DEX 12
CON 14+2
INT 9
WIS 15+2
CHA 12
Feats: Magic Initiate Druid, Fey Touched/Observant/Chef/Skill Expert (+1 WIS), Polearm Master, +2 WIS

[mistajames]

Shillelagh Rangers with Druidic Warrior fighting style don't have to look elsewhere for Extra Attack to scale their damage, it's part of their class.

Shillelagh Tomelocks don't have to look elsewhere for a SCAGtrip to scale their damage, it's part of their class. (Bonus points for Celestial Tomelocks using Shillelagh+GFB, who get even more bonus damage.)

Shillelagh Druid/Nature Cleric High Elfs or High Half Elfs don't have to look elsewhere for a SCAGtrip to scale their damage, it's part of their race.

None of the above require multiclassing or feats in order to get options to scale their Shillelagh damage.


And it's not giving up every Bonus Action. It's only one Bonus Action per combat, unless you have the opportunity to pre-cast Shillelagh, in which case it's none. That can be a good trade for being WIS/CHA SAD, especially for those that don't have many uses for their Bonus Action, or only occasionally use their Bonus Action on some turns.

Most of the good ways to boost damage involve feats, none of which save Crusher (which doesn't even directly boost damage) synergize with Shillelagh. You can Booming Blade/GFB with some builds I guess, which is mostly inferior to Extra Attack, but that's merely passible.