Non monk martial artist. Is this a viable build?

[redking]

I want to theorycraft a non monk martial artist.

Human Barbarian 1, Pugilist (variant) Fighter 4, Shou Disciple 5.

Gains fast movement +10ft and rage 1/day from barbarian. Gains Improved Unarmed Strike (needed for entry) and endurance as free feats from fighter. The fighter levels get 3 feats by level 4, one of which must be Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) and Dodge. Being human gets a bonus general feat. That feat is Apprentice (martial artist), which gets this build tumble as a class skill (needed for entry into Shou Disciple).

The martial flurry ability of Shou Disciple is badly written, but I am going with the idea that flurry is actually granted, not just advanced by the class. There is still a feat left over from fighter, 3 feats from levels, and 2 feats from Shou Disciple. Lets use one of them for Snap Kick, yielding us an extra attack.

This character is now dishing out 2d6 unarmed damage and has a flurry.

There are still 4 feats left. Any ideas?

[Harrow]

You need a base reflex save of +2 to enter Shou Disciple, and your build only has +1 when you want to enter.

What qualifies as "non-monk"? Is having a monk's belt too close? What about stuff like Shadow Sun Ninja, that advances "Monk Abilities"? Or, do you just mean no levels of the base class called "monk" and anything else is fair game?

[redking]

Preferably with no levels in the monk base class. That said, 2 or 3 levels of monk may be the easiest way to make this build work.

[mattie_p]

In Zinc Saucier, I made a monkish character (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=12857570&postcount=43) without taking levels in monk and used shou disciple. Maybe you can find inspiration.

[Maat Mons]

The web enhancement for Cityscape allows you to trade Ride for Tumble on your class skill list.

Maybe swap 2 levels of Fighter for 2 levels of Moon-Warded Ranger? That would get you Wis to AC in light (or no) armor, and the +2 Ref save you need.

Alternately, Battle Dancer gives you Cha to AC when unarmored, Improved Unarmed Strike, and +2 Ref all in one level. I'd say Battle Dancer 1 / Paladin of Freedom 2 / Fighter 2 / Shou Disciple 5.

Or you could go Unarmed Swordsage.

[redking]

The web enhancement for Cityscape allows you to trade Ride for Tumble on your class skill list.

Indeed it does (https://web.archive.org/web/20201112031718/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). Excellent find.


Maybe swap 2 levels of Fighter for 2 levels of Moon-Warded Ranger? That would get you Wis to AC in light (or no) armor, and the +2 Ref save you need.

You continue to impress.


Alternately, Battle Dancer gives you Cha to AC when unarmored, Improved Unarmed Strike, and +2 Ref all in one level. I'd say Battle Dancer 1 / Paladin of Freedom 2 / Fighter 2 / Shou Disciple 5.

Brilliant. How about Battle Dancer 1, Barbarian 1, Pugilist fighter 4 (loses nothing because it picks up what is lost from barbarian and gains Endurance for free), Shou Disciple 1, Blackguard 1 (Dark Blessing = CHA to saving throws), Shou Disciple 4? It throws off the build by one level but has far more feats and fast movement from barbarian.

Any idea how stuff like Monk's Belt mentioned by Harrow upthread might interact with this build?

[Darg]

Belt, Monk’s: This simple rope belt, when wrapped around a character’s waist, confers great ability in unarmed combat. The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the belt lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus.

You can get an extra use of stunning fist, 1d8 UAS damage, and +1 AC +wis mod when unarmored. With improved natural attack that increases to 2d6 like a greatsword.

You make unarmed strikes with a gauntlet. Monk belt improves it to 1d8 and it can be enhanced. So keep that in mind.

[Zarvistic]

I'd suggest that if you want to use charisma and/or wisdom, I'd go all in on that and ignore str completely. With lesser aasimar, you've +2s there and the fighter feats aren't really doing much for you, so you might as well go for battledancer1/paladin2/ranger2 before shou. With weapon focus and dodge at levels 1 and 3, you've all you need for prereqs. Intuitive attack is all that's missing, so perhaps from a flaw. You'll get plenty of feats after that and 2 bonus feats from shou as well. If you don't care too much about the AC from battledancer, you could leave charisma low too and take serenity at some point.

[animewatcha]

Couple things about Pugilist. It was printed in a drag mag that was really early 3.5. Leaving lots of room for later bonus feats to be added to list of choices. Also, IIRC, the option for damage reduction (in later issue) was supposed to be corrected to only be bludgeoning or subdual or something. Not convert EVERYTHING.

[Gruftzwerg]

The martial flurry ability of Shou Disciple is badly written, but I am going with the idea that flurry is actually granted, not just advanced by the class. There is still a feat left over from fighter, 3 feats from levels, and 2 feats from Shou Disciple. Lets use one of them for Snap Kick, yielding us an extra attack.

This is due to Shou Disciple being 3.0 material. And in 3.0 flurry was a lil different. It was a 1st lvl ability that scaled with BAB and not with monk lvls. Since the prc requires flurry and assumes that it would be further progressed (since it is referring to the 3.0 version of the ability) I would encourage any DM to converse it that way into 3.5. The lvls for Shou Disciple should count towards the progress of 3.5 flurry imho.

_________________

Other options to avoid monk lvls:

Superior Unarmed Strike feat: A bit weaker but scales with character lvl instead of monk lvl (unless you have the monks unarmed strike, in which chase it progresses that).

UMD a Monk's Belt: You can use UMD to pretend to be a higher lvl monk (even without any monk related classes). If you max UMD this can be an alternative. Note that the belt only exchanged your Unarmed Strike dmg values. It doesn't give your monks unarmed strike ability, nor Improved Unarmed Strike (feat). You need to cover that by other means. But if you max UMD, you don't need any monk lvls at all.

Tashalatora (feat) allows your psionic class lvls to count for monk ability progressions. Another easy option to progress monks unarmed strike without actual class levels.

______________________

If you are looking for Unarmed Strike optimization overall, have a look at my Clawlock build in my signature. There you'll find sweet things like "Sizing" enhancement which is imho almost crucial for unarmed strike dmg optimization. Or Sandals of the Tigerleap to get double dmg on unarmed charge attacks.

[Darg]

Use this skill to activate magic devices, including scrolls and wands, that you could not otherwise activate.

Monk's Belt can already be activated by anyone. Talk to your DM; don't assume you can UMD the belt to be a monk of the level of the result. A level 1 human character could emulate being a 10th level monk or 15th with a couple of feats just by taking it off and putting it back on enough times.

[Gruftzwerg]

Monk's Belt can already be activated by anyone. Talk to your DM; don't assume you can UMD the belt to be a monk of the level of the result. A level 1 human character could emulate being a 10th level monk or 15th with a couple of feats just by taking it off and putting it back on enough times.

Sorry but that part of the sentence didn't make it into the SRD & RC and thus ain't valid anymore.

[Darg]

Sorry but that part of the sentence didn't make it into the SRD & RC and thus ain't valid anymore.


When a preexisting core book or supplement differs with the rules herein, Rules Compendium is meant to take precedence.

The rule doesn't differ. If it did you would no longer benefit from synergy bonuses.


If you’re trained in this skill, you can use it to read spells and
activate magic items as if you had the spell ability or class
features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as
if you were of a different alignment.

I don't see "emulating a class" being an option. Seeing as Monk's Belt doesn't require a class feature to function, you can't use UMD to activate it.

The SRD is not an official source. In fact, there are many important rules details removed to safely comply with the OGL.

[Gruftzwerg]

The rule doesn't differ. If it did you would no longer benefit from synergy bonuses.



I don't see "emulating a class" being an option. Seeing as Monk's Belt doesn't require a class feature to function, you can't use UMD to activate it.

The SRD is not an official source. In fact, there are many important rules details removed to safely comply with the OGL.

1. The text you quoted is undefined in the "Skill description"-format given in the PHB on page 66. Thus it is at best descriptive text and bears no mechanical meaning. Further, if I would follow your logic, it would cause a dysfunction with some intended ways to use UMD (e.g. items that are stronger for specific races and the like).
RC and SRD ain't have the mechanical restriction in their description compared to the PHB. The text is less restrictive and thus "differs" here.

2. "Emulating a Class Feature" is a valid option to use UMD. Monk's belt general benefit is to "increase your monk's Unarmed Strike dmg, Monk's AC bonus and stuff (the fact that non-monks can profit from the effect too is a specific exception created later). When you don the belt, it asks for your monk levels in the mentioned class features. This is the point where UMD steps in to provide virtual monk lvls for those monk class features.


And could you give any examples where the SRD lacks? I'm not aware of anything where important rule text is missing. Only copyrighted stuff, and shortened descriptive/fluff text to prevent people from misinterpreting them, since some of em are misleading and similar things come to my mind (or copyrighted stuff like some caster names in spell names).

edit: regarding the missing synergy bonus for UMD in the RC
the RC only needs to provide the information that it wants to change. It doesn't need to repeat thing that it wants to leave untouched. RC changed the entire description of what the ability does and how it can be used. So we can assume that this change was intended here.

[Darg]

I'm not going to argue this further because it's off topic and we would go round in circles. Readers can form their own conclusion.


And could you give any examples where the SRD lacks? I'm not aware of anything where important rule text is missing. Only copyrighted stuff, and shortened descriptive/fluff text to prevent people from misinterpreting them, since some of em are misleading and similar things come to my mind (or copyrighted stuff like some caster names in spell names).

Soulknife Free Draw is missing the parenthetical that clarifies that the one attempt per round is for materializing in a NPF. Under the illusion school description you are missing important contextual information to understand when a saving throw is warranted vs when a saving throw isn't required. It's too vague without it.


Free Draw (Su): At 5th level, a soulknife becomes able to materialize his mind blade as a free action instead of a move action. He can make only one attempt to materialize the mind blade per round, however (if, for example, he must make a Will save to materialize it within a null psionics field).


Free Draw (Su)

At 5th level, a soulknife becomes able to materialize his mind blade as a free action instead of a move action. He can make only one attempt to materialize the mind blade per round, however.

Completely changes how the line is read unless you dig into and infer from vocabulary instead of a directly stated rule. Common English uses "attempt" even in situations when "attempt" isn't the correct word to use. Even though it means there is a chance for failure, we also use it when there is no chance for failure. It's obvious once pointed out, but it can cause issues when not.


Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion. For example, if a party encounters a section of illusory floor, the character in the lead would receive a saving throw if she stopped and studied the floor or if she probed the floor.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline. For examples, a character making a successful saving throw against a figment of an illusory section of floor knows the “floor” isn’t safe to walk on and can see what lies below (light permitting), but he or she can still note where the figment lies.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. A character who falls through a section of illusory floor into a pit knows something is amiss, as does one who spends a few rounds poking at the same illusion. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.


Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)

Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

The examples tell you how to apply the rule. It's like if someone told you to stay on the right side of the road. The statement could mean something completely different if you are in Britain vs the US. Well, unless the someone was a jerk that wanted you dead.

Basically, it's telling you that a simple interaction/suspicious observation gets you a saving throw. Falling through a solid floor and spending more than a round probing something is required to prove it isn't real. Proof is a variable quantity based on the amount of evidence required to make a conclusion. A smoking gun in hand is proof enough for some, but if the person was wearing gloves holding the barrel and the gun had the prints of the man found laughing next to him is it really proof?

There are others, but these are two off the top of my head. They don't come up unless someone has a question on how something works and people come to separate conclusions based on the source they read.

[Gruftzwerg]

I'm not going to argue this further because it's off topic and we would go round in circles. Readers can form their own conclusion.



Soulknife Free Draw is missing the parenthetical that clarifies that the one attempt per round is for materializing in a NPF. Under the illusion school description you are missing important contextual information to understand when a saving throw is warranted vs when a saving throw isn't required. It's too vague without it.





Completely changes how the line is read unless you dig into and infer from vocabulary instead of a directly stated rule. Common English uses "attempt" even in situations when "attempt" isn't the correct word to use. Even though it means there is a chance for failure, we also use it when there is no chance for failure. It's obvious once pointed out, but it can cause issues when not.





The examples tell you how to apply the rule. It's like if someone told you to stay on the right side of the road. The statement could mean something completely different if you are in Britain vs the US. Well, unless the someone was a jerk that wanted you dead.

Basically, it's telling you that a simple interaction/suspicious observation gets you a saving throw. Falling through a solid floor and spending more than a round probing something is required to prove it isn't real. Proof is a variable quantity based on the amount of evidence required to make a conclusion. A smoking gun in hand is proof enough for some, but if the person was wearing gloves holding the barrel and the gun had the prints of the man found laughing next to him is it really proof?

There are others, but these are two off the top of my head. They don't come up unless someone has a question on how something works and people come to separate conclusions based on the source they read.

You are talking about the lack of examples here. The rule mechanical value of both texts are the same. I can understand the given rules even without the example and they are not really mandatory for that. Sure having an example reduced the chances of a misinterpretation, but that's all. It doesn't change anything rule related and doesn't provide any extra info. It just gives an example.

So, no, the SRD is not wrong here, just because it lacks an example for a simplified example/explanation.

[Voldine]

I want to theorycraft a non monk martial artist.

Human Barbarian 1, Pugilist (variant) Fighter 4, Shou Disciple 5.

Gains fast movement +10ft and rage 1/day from barbarian. Gains Improved Unarmed Strike (needed for entry) and endurance as free feats from fighter. The fighter levels get 3 feats by level 4, one of which must be Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) and Dodge. Being human gets a bonus general feat. That feat is Apprentice (martial artist), which gets this build tumble as a class skill (needed for entry into Shou Disciple).

The martial flurry ability of Shou Disciple is badly written, but I am going with the idea that flurry is actually granted, not just advanced by the class. There is still a feat left over from fighter, 3 feats from levels, and 2 feats from Shou Disciple. Lets use one of them for Snap Kick, yielding us an extra attack.

This character is now dishing out 2d6 unarmed damage and has a flurry.

There are still 4 feats left. Any ideas?

Did you consider Swordsage as an option? Tome of Battle itself even outright suggests giving the Swordsage the monk's unarmed strike progression to make a better monk.

[DMVerdandi]

Make a Warforged Psionic Artificer.

Lion Spirit totem Barbarian 1/Artificer 19

Take some flaws, Grab Adamantine body,

Improved unarmed attack, superior unarmed attack, second slam, snap kick

enchant your body as a warforged.

This includes enchanting your fists and feet as weapons, but also enchanting your main body as armor.
You can also infuse yourself.

This becomes DRAMATICALLY better with Gestalt[Namely with STP Erudite], but on it's own it's still kind of crazy AF.







Alternatively, same thing with a martial adept of your choice.

[Darg]

So, no, the SRD is not wrong here, just because it lacks an example for a simplified example/explanation.

You misread what I wrote. I never claimed the SRD was wrong, just lacking important information and that it isn't an official source. 99% of it is copy and paste. It's hard to mess that up.

[ShurikVch]

FWIW, "Pulp Heroes" (Dungeon #90) have the literal "Martial Artist" class, which is about 90% of Monk:
no Ki Strike, Diamond Soul, Timeless Body, Tongue of the Sun and Moon, or Perfect Self;
Defensive Roll (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#specialAbilities) at 17th level, and DR 10/- at 20th.

Barbarian's City Brawler ACF (Dragon #349) allow explicitly TWF your Unarmed Strike, and gives bonus feats from TWF feat chain

Other PrC of note:
Streetfighter (Complete Adventurer): Stand Tough CF allow to avoid damage via Fort save 1 or 2/day; DC is damage gained; on successful save, you get 50% of the damage - but as nonlethal

Brawler (Dragon #295): gets DR versus in-combat nonlethal damage = Con bonus; half of bludgeoning damage received converted to nonlethal damage (which would be reduced by DR); also, moral bonus on attack when fighting multiple opponents

Primal Rager (Dragon #295): CF on the very 1st level allows to "shorten" duration of your Rage; for each round of Rage you gave up, you get +1 Str and Con (but Con gained this way don't extends duration of your Rage)

[JoeNapalm]

Currently running a Barbarian/Pugilist (eventually getting even more esoteric) using some ToB to spice things up...

Unarmed is a Shadow Blade weapon, for example.

...Non-monk Unarmed is quite viable.

I'm not even optimizing for Unarmed, but when crunching the numbers...I'm not gaining more than about a point of average damage by waving my knives around. :P If I wanted to pick up Superior Unarmed down the road, it wouldn't be a bad move to go fisticuffs.

I'm angling for Eternal Blade but Frostrager would be good for Unarmed.

I can't find the handbook, but there's an argument to be made that Monk can be outdone by a focused Fighter variant.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Balyano]

Not sure if you are allowing 7th sea adventure content or not.
If so Swashbuckling Adventures has some useful feats.
Notably the Unarmored Defense Proficiency feat tree.
As well as a few others.

[vasilidor]

truth of the matter, whether or not your build is viable is dependent on the table your playing at. for instance a monk played in a game where most of the combat is large groups of low CR monsters with the occasional caster in the back(I.E. a bunch of Ogres with a 6th level goblin sorcerer in such numbers to create a CR 12 encounter) of the group can shine if they have a decent wisdom and dexterity. in this table playing the fireball wizard and sword and board fighter would all work. in a table where the enemies were more close to the characters level in CR(like a dragon or a dinosaur), not so much.

[Arkhios]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you get to use your unarmed damage when attacking with a gauntlet? So, if your unarmed damage die were bigger than the normal 1d3 for a medium creature, you would use that instead of the gauntlet's listed 1d3, since you are still treated unarmed.

Wouldn't a very simple way to make a non-monk pugilist then be to take Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike), to have it go up to 1d4, which is just as good as a dagger, which really isn't all that bad. Sure, it takes a few feats and several levels to accomplish, but that's mostly irrelevant.

Add to this a Monk's Belt, and you'd be able to then pummel the proverbial crap out of your targets with a pretty impressive 2d6. And since gauntlets are considered weapons you could add enhancements (including special properties) on them, which in turn would affect and be affected by your unarmed strikes.

Adding enhancements on a Monk's Belt is at best very questionable, because the item itself is a Wondrous Item, not a weapon. And Amulet of Mighty Fists only lets you add enhancement bonus, not special properties. I for one at least couldn't find anything in the rules that would support this.

But again, correct me if I'm wrong about anything above, but preferably do so with a solid proof from an official source stating otherwise.