Armor is... long (Spheres in Review)

[SangoProduction]

Link (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fBDlLBGDw-UY3UEOsiWfG1XKIJS6-vYJ3Ru7FQRvxuM/edit?usp=sharing)

Preamble:
I actually did a full review of the entire armorist class before… on the forums. But perhaps this time it’ll stay up. It’s much more useful that way.
The class is really conceptually interesting. Though I may have a strong anti-martial bias, I’ll try and keep it to a minimum and look at the class for what it is. Which may mean I’m overrating stuff. But… For what it is.

Post-Review Analysis:
Yeah. Just look at the navigation column, and you’ll see just how long this took.

Anyway, I am probably overrating much of the class compared to other sphere abilities. But you’re not playing this class for the other sphere abilities. It’s specifically for the magic items you can summon. So it’s got to focus on how good it is at achieving that goal.

The armorist is very much an all-or-nothing class. You either take it, or you don’t. If you try and dip out of it, your class feature (which is just “I get gold value early, and flexibly”) falls behind at a dramatic rate.

And then finally getting through everything and seeing… my screen filled with the archetypes. I was expecting a lot of work. Most of them were actually relatively simple… Inventioneer, do not come near me! The power of Christ compels you!

Flex Abilities: Quenching - For fires / fire elementals (Frost also probably helps)
Spell Resistance - Vs casters that use SR Yes abilities;
Fortification - Vs Rogues / crit fishers
Ghost Touch - Vs Ghosts / etc;
Mirrored - Vs Gaze or Rays;
Energy Resistance - Vs specific energy damage
Deathless / Vital - Vs negative energy damage / negative levels
Mind Buttressing - Vs mind magic -total immunity

From talents:
Seeking - Vs miss chance
Phasic - Vs cover

[Rynjin]

The Lingchi Warrior is really cool and flexible. You can do wacky stuff like pick up a staff from your armory with Magic Talent: Whatever I want and/or Extra Sphere and be one of the best flex casters in the game.

[SangoProduction]

The Lingchi Warrior is really cool and flexible. You can do wacky stuff like pick up a staff from your armory with Magic Talent: Whatever I want and/or Extra Sphere and be one of the best flex casters in the game.

Yeah. I agree. I simply can't objectively look at it myself, because it can influence a party mate, and so I'd, consciously or note, be making "corrections" for them. I'll update it once everything is done and over with.

[Kitsuneymg]

I really like armorist for two weapon fighters. Getting your weapons up to baseline is super expensive and the armorist just laughs at that.

[Prime32]

Don't sleep on Armor Training when it opens up Advanced Armor Training (https://aonprd.com/AdvArmorTraining.aspx).

Granted, most of the options aren't amazing, but there's stuff in there like free skill ranks, +5 AC, or +5 initiative that you can pick up very easily. In particular, if you have Improved Materials or Natural Materials then you can make better use of Armored Master (Armor Material Expertise (https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Armor%20Material%20Exper tise)) than anyone else.

Likewise, the Living Weapon archetype can access Advanced Weapon Training starting at lv9, giving them things like warpriest weapon damage, or a secondary weapon enchant which is temporary but can apply any enchantment (even things like bane) and stacks with the weapon's existing properties.

[SangoProduction]

Don't sleep on Armor Training when it opens up Advanced Armor Training (https://aonprd.com/AdvArmorTraining.aspx).

Granted, most of the options aren't amazing, but there's stuff in there like free skill ranks, +5 AC, or +5 initiative. In particular, if you have Improved Materials or Natural Materials then you can make better use of Armored Master (Armor Material Expertise (https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Armor%20Material%20Exper tise)) than anyone else.

You are the type of reason I make these posts. To find the treasure in the trash pile.

Granted, Very specialized spell resistance isn't much of a selling point to me for 2 feats (Armor Material Expertise + Improved Materials), but converting half damage to nonlethal...from one attack...for an immediate action. I mean, it's definitely nice in an emergency. Woodland stride is neat. Probably not neat enough for 2 feats.

I can't seem to find the ones that give +5 AC and/or initiative

[Prime32]

I can't seem to find the ones that give +5 AC and/or initiativeArmor Specialization for the first, Armored Master (Sprightly Armor) for the second.

[Thunder999]

Fey-forged is melee only, so no fey forged light crossbows.

[SangoProduction]

Fey-forged is melee only, so no fey forged light crossbows.

Right. Fair enough. OK, there are substantially fewer use cases then.

[Kitsuneymg]

Armor training from armorist isn’t the same as fighter armor training. I mean, it does the exact same thing, but isn’t “fighter weapon training.” So it doesn’t qualify you for advanced armor training. Ditto weapon training.

[Prime32]

Armor training from armorist isn’t the same as fighter armor training. I mean, it does the exact same thing, but isn’t “fighter weapon training.” So it doesn’t qualify you for advanced armor training. Ditto weapon training.Living Weapon (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/living-weapon)'s weapon training explicitly says that you gain it as a fighter though.

[Kitsuneymg]

Living Weapon (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/living-weapon)'s weapon training explicitly says that you gain it as a fighter though.

I was referring to the base armorists “weapon training” option.

[A.J.Gibson]

Under Living Weapon, you state:

"Interestingly, you can still summon, but not bind, weapons. So you don’t fully lose out, thankfully."

Where does it say you can't bind weapons?

I should also point out that armored magic may trail real armor at low levels, but a level 20 living weapon can put out a +7 AC armor, and a +5 shield (both before enhancement bonuses), putting it ahead of full-plate with large shield. And then you can get a +5 staff of protection. It also has the advantage of stacking with ability-to-AC effects (like the monk and symbiat have) as well as working against touch attacks.

[SangoProduction]

Under Living Weapon, you state:

"Interestingly, you can still summon, but not bind, weapons. So you don’t fully lose out, thankfully."

Where does it say you can't bind weapons?

I should also point out that armored magic may trail real armor at low levels, but a level 20 living weapon can put out a +7 AC armor, and a +5 shield (both before enhancement bonuses), putting it ahead of full-plate with large shield. And then you can get a +5 staff of protection. It also has the advantage of stacking with ability-to-AC effects (like the monk and symbiat have) as well as working against touch attacks.

Oh. You are... correct. I read it as replacing Bound Equipment, and that it was excluding the typical way you can bind equipment. I think I need to reevaluate the entire archetype. And... OK, fair point. I ... I'll have to double check that bit about touch attacks, but I'll get to that when I can.

[StSword]

As for graft weapon- it turns a weapon into a primary natural attack. So rather niche.

[SangoProduction]

Alright, I think I implemented the feedback. Much appreciated. Living Weapon got a much more appropriate G rating, as a very solid archetype.

[Jack_Simth]

Regarding Impervious:

Yes, the summoned equipment is easily replaced. But:
"The armorist’s bound equipment can be damaged and sundered, but always returns to full health the following day."

Your basic summoned equipment? Not really worth thinking about defending (swift action spell point to replace). Bound equipment, though? Depends on how much you rely on it. You might miss it for a full day.

[SangoProduction]

Regarding Impervious:

Yes, the summoned equipment is easily replaced. But:
"The armorist’s bound equipment can be damaged and sundered, but always returns to full health the following day."

Your basic summoned equipment? Not really worth thinking about defending (swift action spell point to replace). Bound equipment, though? Depends on how much you rely on it. You might miss it for a full day.

Eh... Kinda. But the opportunity cost is even higher on bound gear, because you're now spending the bonus permanently, until you have 8 hours per equipment to reallocate it, where as with summoned weapons, you can at least choose to only use the effect when there's actively someone trying to sunder your stuff. Again, I wouldn't, because I'd just take that as a win, but still. And taking it as a feat is even more permanent, but at least it opens up a plus. (And there are so many good tricks, let alone other feats, that I'd really loath to pick that up, even if I thought it performed its one job particularly well.)

At level 10, swapping down to a summoned equipment is the same as Bound Equipment, but 2 pluses less. 1 plus less, if you include bound Impervious. Now, while yes, that is a drop, and one that would suck to have to put up with... you're almost never going to go from "I'm reliant on this weapon" to "I can't function without that additional +2."

You can still summon that weapon, just with a couple fewer enchants. Unless you're using one of the particularly expensive ones, which you only just unlocked. Then again, not a lot of really great high plus enchants. At least not ones that you can't live without. I mean, the one to bypass nonliving material is definitely usable in a way where you attack behind total cover, using scrying to see your target. But it's probably not absolutely essential that you have access to that tactic for your character to function.

[ShadowcatX]

I think you're missing something very important in the void wielder archetype. Specifically the line:


The void blade otherwise functions as a bound weapon and the void wielder still gains additional bound equipment options as normal from leveling, but must always keep her void blade bound.

So the only thing the void wielder actually loses is summon equipment. Your comment in the document about them losing too much lead me to believe that you thought it replaced bound equipment, which was also my first read of the archetype.

[SangoProduction]

"It still gains other bound equipment on leveling."
OK. Yeah. Definitely sounds like something I might have ultimately missed. And given that it literally only replaces summoned equipment (a mediocre ability), and one Bound Equipment (while still getting the benefits of said equipment (since your first bound equipment is undoubtedly a weapon)... while gaining free summons. (Granted, relatively janky summons which you don't have total freedom over - and thus your summons are limited to what the DM throws at you. But gain free (form) talents, at quicker speeds than if you were just an incanter splitting talents between two summons, and it can "flex.")

With all that considered, I don't know why I would place as simply a flavor archetype somewhere between N-M and G.
So the only reasonable conclusion would be that I simply missed that.

I think it goes straight up to S. Gains a lot more than it loses.