Optimizing a Stars Druid

[jaappleton]

….I can’t think of anything to do.

I can’t think of any way to squeeze blood from a stone here.

Don’t see any particular magic item that drastically changes the play style or anything.

Can’t think of any Ravnica background, or Eberron race to slap onto it, with an expanded spell list that makes something broken.

I love the subclass. It’s spectacular. Love how versatile it is.

I want to break it but I cannot.

Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi, you’re my only hope.

[stoutstien]

Well there is sentinel human Dragon mark for counterspell and bigby hand which are amazing with dragon.

[RogueJK]

As far as multiclassing optimization goes, Stars Druid works better as the dip, rather than being the primary class with a different class dip.

Stars Druid 2 is an excellent dip for a number of Cleric builds, or a Ranger (especially a Swarmkeeper) with a high WIS. The extra Guiding Bolts, and the versatility of Star Form, is worth being 2 levels behind in your primary class in many cases.

[Dork_Forge]

I have a stars Druid in one of my games, started at 3rd and currently at 8th, has only ever used the Archer form. My observation there is that they'd probably benefit quite a bit from the Gunner feat. Closing distance is the easiest way to challenge that player because then suddenly a lot of their options are disadvantage.

Gunner to bump Dex from 13 to 14 would patch that weakness entirely.

[Dalinar]

There was a DnD youtuber (can I link to the video?) who likes to optimize things and, when asked for a healer build, came up with Twilight 6/Stars X. It's hard to quantify healing, is the thing, but he concluded that such a build could pretty easily heal or prevent more than the damage from a typical adventuring day if that's all it wanted to do, between Channel Divinity, concentration options such as Aura of Vitality, Chalice form, and having lots of spell slots to spam heals with.

That said, I wonder how that compares to just Twilight 20, or even Twilight 18/Stars 2 (taking the dip whenever). It probably deals with focus fire a little better?

If you're looking to optimize around Archer form instead, I suspect mixing in some Swarmkeeper might be the play. I'll be doing something along those lines in an upcoming campaign, actually.

Dragon form I'm unsure. Protecting Concentration is always nice, and INT/WIS skill checks tend to be important for information gathering, but I almost think you're better off saving your wildshapes for Chalice or Archer unless you're reasonably certain no hard counters are happening that day.

EDIT: Looking through the Cleric subclasses, combining with Order Cleric lets you weaponize your ally's reaction whenever you target an ally with a leveled spell, which synergizes well with both Chalice and Archer. Might be worth a look?

[RogueJK]

If you're optimizing around Archer Form, the Spell Sniper feat is worth considering. It'll increase your Thorn Whip or Produce Flame range to the same range as Archer Form, so you can comfortably utilize your Cantrip+BA Archer attack routine from 60' away instead of just 30'. And it bumps your Guiding Bolt range to 240', plus lets all your attack rolls from cantrips, Guiding Bolt, or Archer form ignore cover.


Alternately, a 1 level dip into Cleric (especially Arcana Cleric) gets you some better and longer-ranged damage cantrip options than the Druid's slim pickings. All Clerics get Sacred Flame or Toll The Dead, and Arcana Clerics have further options with stuff like Ray of Frost, Chill Touch, or Fire Bolt.

[msfnc]

Bonus action Wisdom-based attacks from archer form play really nicely with a combo of Guiding Bolt and Elven Accuracy. Not enough to base a build around, but could be fun...

[jaappleton]

Lots are suggesting Ranger. Something I’m not aware of? Typically with Ranger I’d utilize a feat or TWF to generate a bonus action attack, I don’t see how Stars helps all that much.

When I look at Stars, I personally don’t see a two level dip. I see an immensely versatile subclass. That 10th level feature is so tantalizing, able to adapt on the fly to any situation, it seems amazing to me.

Regarding Twilight / Stars…. That’s an interesting idea. Would the temp HP granted by the channel divinity of Twilight trigger the effect of Chalice?

[Dork_Forge]

Lots are suggesting Ranger. Something I’m not aware of? Typically with Ranger I’d utilize a feat or TWF to generate a bonus action attack, I don’t see how Stars helps all that much.

When I look at Stars, I personally don’t see a two level dip. I see an immensely versatile subclass. That 10th level feature is so tantalizing, able to adapt on the fly to any situation, it seems amazing to me.

Regarding Twilight / Stars…. That’s an interesting idea. Would the temp HP granted by the channel divinity of Twilight trigger the effect of Chalice?

No, it requires both a spell using a spell slot and regaining actual hit points.

[CMCC]

Lots are suggesting Ranger. Something I’m not aware of? Typically with Ranger I’d utilize a feat or TWF to generate a bonus action attack, I don’t see how Stars helps all that much.

When I look at Stars, I personally don’t see a two level dip. I see an immensely versatile subclass. That 10th level feature is so tantalizing, able to adapt on the fly to any situation, it seems amazing to me.

Regarding Twilight / Stars…. That’s an interesting idea. Would the temp HP granted by the channel divinity of Twilight trigger the effect of Chalice?

Honestly wildfire is probably the better subclass - especially when the 1 hr vs 10min time restriction is taken into account. That 10 min limit really hurts.

I’ve been messing around with swarmkeeper and a 2 level stars dip and haven’t really loved it. Archer just isnt as good as an archer Ranger build and if you’re going to go dragon I honestly don’t know if the 2 levels are worth it.

So basically I’m not much help for you.

[Dalinar]

re: other sources of a BA attack for Rangers, can you be more specific? If nothing else Archer BA attack is 1. ranged, 2. WIS-based, and 3. not tied to taking the Attack action, which may give it a niche rather than investing elsewhere for your Ranger.

For instance, Stars 2/Swarmkeeper 3 can combine Thorn Whip with Swarmkeeper shove for up to 25 feet of forced movement; Swarmkeeper 3 can do this on its own, of course, but what Stars provides is a second chance at that 15-foot shove on your bonus action (as well as an alternate way to get Thorn Whip, freeing up your Fighting Style). Unfortunately activating Archer form is your main action, which is clumsy if you're going for the Spike Growth combo, but even without Spike Growth what you've done is weaponized both your main action and bonus action with attacks that key off WIS. So you just need that 13-14 DEX rather than needing to invest more heavily. (EDIT: It's a bonus action, my bad!)

Alternatively, if you have another way of attacking with your bonus action, what Stars/Ranger gets is semi-spammable Guiding Bolt on a main action into BA attack with advantage (unless it specifies taking the Attack action, as TWF does). Then you save Starry Form for Chalice/Dragon depending on the situation.


Regarding Twilight / Stars…. That’s an interesting idea. Would the temp HP granted by the channel divinity of Twilight trigger the effect of Chalice?

Unfortunately no, you have to spend a spell slot to get the Chalice bonus.

I'm still looking for ideas, too, FWIW. Trying to find a way to put riders on Guiding Bolt/Thorn Whip/Archer attack, for instance (Fey-touched for Hex?)


Honestly wildfire is probably the better subclass - especially when the 1 hr vs 10min time restriction is taken into account. That 10 min limit really hurts.

I’ve been messing around with swarmkeeper and a 2 level stars dip and haven’t really loved it. Archer just isnt as good as an archer Ranger build and if you’re going to go dragon I honestly don’t know if the 2 levels are worth it.

So basically I’m not much help for you.

Unfortunate, since I've been pretty hype about trying the same build soon :P

Although I think of the build as more of a caster with some ranger things than a ranger trying to compete with one completely dedicated to shooting.

[CMCC]

Other Ranger BA attacks can come from XBE, PAM w/Shillelagh, PAM on a STRanger, beast master, a wildfire dip (which is pretty great).





Unfortunate, since I've been pretty hype about trying the same build soon :P

Although I think of the build as more of a caster with some ranger things than a ranger trying to compete with one completely dedicated to shooting.

To be clear I’m just theory crafting at this point, so actually gameplay may be different. I’m curious to know how it plays actually.

What do you like most about the multiclass? Is there a synergy I’m missing or undervaluing?

[Dalinar]

To be clear I’m just theory crafting at this point, so actually gameplay may be different. I’m curious to know how it plays actually.

What do you like most about the multiclass? Is there a synergy I’m missing or undervaluing?

If it wasn't clear, I'm *also* still in the theorycrafting stages. Session zero is sometime in the next two weeks. Maybe I should revisit the thread in a couple months?

[CMCC]

If it wasn't clear, I'm *also* still in the theorycrafting stages. Session zero is sometime in the next two weeks. Maybe I should revisit the thread in a couple months?

I got that - I just didn’t want to dissuade you with only theory.

[Unoriginal]

As far as multiclassing optimization goes, Stars Druid works better as the dip, rather than being the primary class with a different class dip.

Stars Druid 2 is an excellent dip for a number of Cleric builds, or a Ranger (especially a Swarmkeeper) with a high WIS. The extra Guiding Bolts, and the versatility of Star Form, is worth being 2 levels behind in your primary class in many cases.

If you're dipping into Star Druid, then 10 levels of Abjuration Wizard makes you able to Counterspell everything with lvl 3 spell slots.



I love the subclass. It’s spectacular. Love how versatile it is.

I want to break it but I cannot.

Isn't that a good thing?

Breaking what you love rarely brings happiness.

[Dalinar]

I got that - I just didn’t want to dissuade you with only theory.

Fair enough!

What Stars Druid provides to Swarmkeeper Ranger is:
1. BA ranged attack that keys off WIS via Archer
2. Exclusive to that, increased healing efficiency via Chalice
3. Exclusive to both of those, improved information gathering via Dragon
4. Almost-as-fast access to second-level spells (comparing 3/3 to 5)
5. Source of cantrips that isn't Druidic Warrior (meaning you can take Archery or Defense or whatever and still get a couple cantrips if you prefer)
6. Guiding Bolt, which averages 14 radiant damage before any riders like Hunter's Mark, along with the advantage rider

in exchange for delaying Ranger features such as Extra Attack, of course. So if your choice was this multiclass vs Ranger, you'd definitely want to take the level range of your campaign into consideration. Stars 2 / Swarmkeeper 3 is probably not better than Swarmkeeper 5, but I think I like Stars 2 / Swarmkeeper 5 over Swarmkeeper 7.

What Swarmkeeper Ranger grants you over straight Stars Druid is:
1. Favored Foe, slightly increasing your DPR (provided you're not busy concentrating on something else)
2. An extra skill and an expertise
3. A fighting style
4. Swarmkeeper-specific goodies like the Mage Hand cantrip and the very versatile attack rider

in exchange for delaying Druid progression, e.g. later Wild Shape flight and decently delayed spells known/spell slots. I think in this case it depends on how badly you want those later Druid spells vs the various Ranger utilities. Stars 10 with the Starry Form upgrade is probably way better than Stars 7 / Swarmkeeper 3 or Stars 5 / Swarmkeeper 5. However, for a lot of campaigns, that's endgame.

As you can see, I still have a lot to iron out here.

[Hael]

I agree with the Sentinel human suggestion... More or less as a monoclass. The monoclass version is imo much more powerful than any cleric or ranger dip. This class really doesn't need much optimization as it does everything pretty well, and really benefits from standard spell progression. It also really likes the final lvl capstones.

It's also not very ASI/Feat needy. Once you fix your concentration saves and max your wis, its pretty open imo. Its a very well designed class in that regard.

[RogueJK]

Unfortunately activating Archer form is your main action, which is clumsy if you're going for the Spike Growth combo

No it isn't. Activating Starry Form is a Bonus Action. Archer Form further says that it can be used to make an attack on the same turn that it's activated.

So you can cast Spike Growth (Action) plus Activate & Attack with Archer Form (Bonus Action), all in one turn.

[Dalinar]

No it isn't. Activating Starry Form is a Bonus Action. Archer Form further says that it can be used to make an attack on the same turn that it's activated.

So you can cast Spike Growth (Action) plus Activate & Attack with Archer Form (Bonus Action), all in one turn.

I evidently cannot read. Thanks!

[sambojin]

They combo pretty well with Echo Fighter. It just depends on what you want. Being able to use your echo attack and then your bonus action archer shot from various areas is pretty nice. If you don't mind blowing wildshape charges, there's no reason to not echo out beast illusions from time to time as well, assuming you've got a round or two to spare.

And while it doesn't come online for ages, going up to Stars 8/ Echo 5-6 isn't too bad ASI/feat/magic wise. I'd probably go Stars 5/ Echo 3/ Stars 8/ Echo 5.

Extra attack is surprisingly good with wildshape forms, even little wildshape. This also works ok with BM fighters for your base attacks, although you won't be able to add manoeuvres to your archer constellation shots (it's a spell attack, not a weapon attack), although there's plenty of tactical manoeuvres that are ok.
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A Stars X/ GOO Warlock 2 thing can work as well. Telepathy for wildshape and more shooting on top of your e.blasts is never bad, with a smattering of hex damage setup rounds and whatever other invocation for funsies (illusions which you don't do normally, or disguise self? Or whatever). You're pretty stat/feat independent, so pumping charisma isn't too hard. I'd probably start as Stars 3/GOOlock 2/ Stars X, but it can be done the other way around. Either way wouldn't feel weak by lvl5-6 I'd say.

I will agree that it's probably better mono-classed though. Both of these suggestions have a pretty heavy bonus action use on top of archer shots.
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And while it's not great, is there ever any time that a rogue wouldn't like non-feated bonus action ranged attacks and skill-magic? They might not be sneak attack compatible, but d8+Wis is about 2d6 extra attackiness. A Stars 3/ Rogue (any) X could work fine, although you're actually heavy dipping druid for the easy start and then rogue'ing from there, not the other way around. Oh, and springing out help action familiars via Tasha's wildshape charges is absolutely amazing for rogues, even without constellation damage. So does having Summon Beast and Enlarge/Reduce on your list of stuff to do by lvl3, maybe not both at once, but shenanigans abound from them.
------

Remember that even if dinosaurs don't exist in your world, and you've never been to Ixalan (all druid circles go to Ixalan in their backstory, their hierophant takes students there through the Plane Shift spell to learn about them), beasts can be counts-as. *Frilled Deathspitters* are "Dire Skunks" or "Dire Honey Badgers" if necessary. All Druids can become a Frilled Deathspitter by lvl4. Backstory it in.... :)
(Planeshift: Ixalan was just as official as anything else WoTC releases. Frilled Deathspitters work amazingly well with an Archer Constellation or a helpy familiar, on top of other class's abilities or a summoned beast. Hell, 3 levels of Lore Bard to make the enemy whiff those DC13Con blind saves can work too. This works for lots of wildshapes, whether they're stat checks or saves, and they're reaction debuffs with Cutting Words)

[CMCC]

If two classes main abilities use bonus actions to activate - I tend to think of the synergy as poor - even if otherwise it works fine together.

[Seclora]

I would think a Celestial Warlock/Stars Druid would be a passable build with really interesting flavor. Chalice and Dragon both make your limited Warlock spells go a little further, and an Eldritch Blast + Archer attack rotation gets you a decent bit of damage. Elven Accuracy applies to both sets of attack rolls, and the bonus to Fire and Radiant damage from Celestial would apply to your free Guiding Bolts as well. Both classes also have a level 10 ability, so you could go halves and get most of the features from both classes by 20. You'd have to pass on 6th+ level spells, and your 5th feat, but you would be really good with the spells you did have and be a reliable healer and blaster.

Thematically, you'd have a character who spent years studying the night sky before meeting a being of pure radiance (A Solar for instance) who showed them how to harness their understanding of the cosmos in new and potent ways, before revealing to them some secret that drives them to explore further.

[jaappleton]

Isn't that a good thing?

Breaking what you love rarely brings happiness.

Well.... you're not wrong.

[MrStabby]

Straight stars druid with the Ravnica Azorious background.

All of the versatility you want but also you get counterspell which of course you can get advantage on. Add to that command, which is brutal if anyone in your party has a bunch of summoned creatures.

[kaervaak]

How about the Dragon Form Omni-Caster? It requires a mizzium apparatus and enables you to cast any spell from the wizard, cleric, and druid spell lists.

Stars Druid 2/ Knowledge Cleric 1/ Wizard X

At level 20 with Dragon form, +5 Int, and expertise in arcana, the lowest you can roll on an arcana check is 21. This lets you auto-succeed on Mizzium checks to cast 5th level or lower spells. Make your race a Vedalkin or Mark of Making Dragonmarked Human and you're up to 22, guaranteeing success on 6th level spells.

[jaappleton]

How about the Dragon Form Omni-Caster? It requires a mizzium apparatus and enables you to cast any spell from the wizard, cleric, and druid spell lists.

Stars Druid 2/ Knowledge Cleric 1/ Wizard X

At level 20 with Dragon form, +5 Int, and expertise in arcana, the lowest you can roll on an arcana check is 21. This lets you auto-succeed on Mizzium checks to cast 5th level or lower spells. Make your race a Vedalkin or Mark of Making Dragonmarked Human and you're up to 22, guaranteeing success on 6th level spells.

THIS is a crazy as heck idea, and I dig this.

.....though aside from how well it plays with Dragon, I don't think its something to build around.

If I could maybe talk my DM into removing the Sorc/Wiz/Warlock restriction, and slap this on a Bard, maybe...?

Knowledge 1 / Wizard is probably a much better way to go, though. But darn this is a nice idea.

[MrStabby]

….I can’t think of anything to do.

I can’t think of any way to squeeze blood from a stone here.

Don’t see any particular magic item that drastically changes the play style or anything.

Can’t think of any Ravnica background, or Eberron race to slap onto it, with an expanded spell list that makes something broken.

I love the subclass. It’s spectacular. Love how versatile it is.

I want to break it but I cannot.

Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi, you’re my only hope.

You play with UA? You played a theurge before... I wonder if you can add a little death theurge to the class?

So this is going off the deep end a bit... but level 6 theurge (with low Int) might work.

So druids are pretty good at controling movement, so getting the reaper element active should be easier than for most classes. Add in the archer and this can give you some pretty solid damage.

For reaper, take the Cleric cantrip toll the dead. Reaper is one of the few abilities that does not change the casting stat for the spell so by picking a cleric spell you can keep it keyed off wisdom.

Now your other wizard spells can give you some great ulility, shield, absorb elements (sure you can get it a s druid spell, but why not save those?), find familliar, animate dead...

[kaervaak]

THIS is a crazy as heck idea, and I dig this.

.....though aside from how well it plays with Dragon, I don't think its something to build around.

If I could maybe talk my DM into removing the Sorc/Wiz/Warlock restriction, and slap this on a Bard, maybe...?

Knowledge 1 / Wizard is probably a much better way to go, though. But darn this is a nice idea.

One of the best things about Mizzium apparatus builds is that you don't care about delays in spells known. You can multiclass to your heart's content and just will whatever spell you need into existence! If you had the stats for it, you could just go nuts on caster classes and still be as (or more) effective than a mono-classed full caster. The only downside is ritual spells, since you can't do rituals with the mizzium apparatus (it requires you to spend the spell slot).

There's some fun spells you wouldn't get as just a cleric/wizard:

Goodberry is a standout, allowing you to burn all your slots right before a long rest for lots of healing the next day

Being able to cast heat metal, but not have it prepared is amazing when you run into a heavily armored enemy

Moonbeam for shapeshifters

Pass without Trace if you find the party needing to be stealthy

Conjure Woodland Beings is just amazing

Transport via plants is like a cost-free version of teleportation circle

[sambojin]

Throw a common Hat of Wizardry in there for "all the Wizard cantrips" and you're laughing 😁

It's a DC10 Intelligence (Arcana) check, and I'm pretty sure you've got that covered as an omni-Wizard.

Between a druid's/cleric's shield proficiency, light/medium armour proficiency, and a Wizard casting focus on your head, you might have ok'ish AC too. And can use weapon cantrips if you're statted for them as well (staff with some mistletoe on it as your cleric/druid focus perhaps?)

Maybe throw in a lvl of Artificer and an uncommon All-Purpose Tool, for "all the tool proficiencies" and whatever non-Wizard cantrip you felt you were missing out on. Omni indeed :)

While you're at it, may as well grab an unattuned common Charlatan's Die. You don't gamble, other people do however, so why not control those odds as well?

[da newt]

Maybe an Undead Warlock dip? It eats BA, but a free frightened rider is nice. You get the below for just 1 lvl, or go 2 lvls for invocations.

Form of Dread
At 1st level, you manifest an aspect of your patron’s dreadful power. As a bonus action, you transform for 1 minute. You gain the following benefits while transformed:

You gain temporary hit points equal to 1d10 + your warlock level.
Once during each of your turns, when you hit a creature with an attack, you can force it to make a Wisdom saving throw, and if the saving throw fails, the target is frightened of you until the end of your next turn.
You are immune to the frightened condition.

You can transform a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.

[TheMango55]

I like a 2 level dip of it with fey wanderer ranger. That subclass is already probably the most wisdom focused ranger subclass so the wisdom based archer form just improves it.

[RogueJK]

Throw a common Hat of Wizardry in there for "all the Wizard cantrips" and you're laughing 😁


"All the Wizard cantrips", sure... but the Hat of Wizardry is limited to 1 total cantrip casting per long rest.

A nifty trick, but probably not that useful in practice.

[kaervaak]

"All the Wizard cantrips", sure... but the Hat of Wizardry is limited to 1 total cantrip casting per long rest.

A nifty trick, but probably not that useful in practice.

Also, the Mizzium apparatus lets you replicate any cantrip on your class spell list with a DC10 arcana check, which you'll automatically pass in Dragon form (or from level 5 and onward with expertise in arcana, +3 int, and +1d4 from Vedalkin or MM Human).

[Dalinar]

What do y'all think of building around Dragon form instead? I'm a little more enthused about it after someone pointed out to me that spells scale way better than Archer/Chalice does. Consider a Druid 2 / any-other-caster X with Resilient (CON). (Or just, y'know, straight Druid.)

Assuming 16 CON and Dragon form, your minimum Constitution save to maintain concentration is a 13 plus proficiency (so 15-19 depending on level). That means you need to take minimum 32 damage before you have a chance at failing concentration at all (if my math is correct), and the floor gets even better as your level scales. Then do like a summon or something for DPR, or a battlefield control option, whatever floats your boat. Unsure what concentration option y'all think would be best at a given level, here, since I don't really get to play lategame or full casters let alone both.

(I'm ignoring the discussion about Mizzium because I know even less about magic items.)

[jaappleton]

.......I totally and completely missed that Dragon includes Intelligence checks. Wow. I first saw the suggestion and kind of wrote it off, thinking it wasn't as great as was proposed.

WOW am I wrong. Wow. Reading comprehension, John, do you have any? Obviously I don't.

[RogueJK]

Stars Druid 2 for Dragon Form is certainly a powerful option for a full caster.

Useful not only for nigh-unbreakable Concentration, but also for its bonus to INT/WIS checks, which would include things like spellcasting ability checks for casting from scrolls or Counterspell/Dispel Magic.

The question is whether it's worth being a full level behind in spells known for a non-Druid...

[kaervaak]

Stars Druid 2 for Dragon Form is certainly a powerful option for a full caster.

Useful not only for nigh-unbreakable Concentration, but also for its bonus to INT/WIS checks, which would include things like spellcasting ability checks for casting from scrolls or Counterspell/Dispel Magic.

The question is whether it's worth being a full level behind in spells known for a non-Druid...

It seems like a decent choice as a 2 level dip for a front-line cleric as a dip after level 5 or 6. Cast spirit guardians, enter dragon-form and wade into combat with unbreakable concentration. You can just upcast spirit guardians (you'd probably be doing that anyway) to compensate for lack of spells known.

[jaappleton]

Stars Druid 2 for Dragon Form is certainly a powerful option for a full caster.

Useful not only for nigh-unbreakable Concentration, but also for its bonus to INT/WIS checks, which would include things like spellcasting ability checks for casting from scrolls or Counterspell/Dispel Magic.

The question is whether it's worth being a full level behind in spells known for a non-Druid...

Someone suggested Mizzium Apparatus. That's Uncommon, and if you pass an arcana check, you successfully cast any spell of which you have an appropriate spell slot, so long as its on your spell list.

Headband of Intellect is also Uncommon.

Wizard 1 / Druid rest

From Mizzium Apparatus:
"While you are wearing the mizzium apparatus, you can use it as an arcane focus. In addition, you can attempt to cast a spell that you do not know or have prepared. The spell you choose must be on your class’s spell list and of a level for which you have a spell slot, and you must provide the spell’s components."

(I'm not posting the whole thing, I'd likely get in trouble with the mods)

I read this to be I can be a Stars Druid and have access to the entire Wizard list, so long as I pass that Arcana check. DC for the spell is 10+Twice the spells level.

Dragon Form from Stars sets my minimum roll for Intelligence checks at 10. Plus Headband of Intellect, plus Arcana proficiency. I could go Veldaken for +1d4 on top of that. Also nets me Counterspell at all times, again making that Intelligence check, without actually needing to know the spell.

And I wouldn't miss out on the fact that I've delayed my spellcasting progression. Again, so long as I make that Arcana check. I'd be delayed for my Druid spells, yes... Not the Wizard spells. The Mizzium Apparatus requires attunement by a Wizard / Sorc / Warlock, so I'd have the entire Wizard list and open to me. So something like Wiz 1 / Druid 8, I could cast Wizard 5th level spells so long as I make that check, but I couldn't cast 5th level Druid spells.

EDIT: So I'd have the Druid list and the Wizard list... with basically a d8 HD (except one level), medium armor, and shield proficiency.

...........as opposed to just being a Divine Soul and not jumping through all these hoops.

Is this Wizard / Druid build actually any good? Why should I just go Divine Soul?

The Wiz/Druid build has the entire Wizard list without ever having to prep anything. That's what I should go with, right? I'm overthinking this, aren't I?

[kaervaak]

I still think Druid 2/Cleric 1/Wizard X is a better omni-caster. You only really need 13 Wisdom to make this work, so you can max out Int easily enough.

Druid 2 gets you dragon form and access to the druid spell list, Cleric 1 gets you armor/weapon proficiencies if you want them or expertise in arcana (you could replicate this will the skill expert feat) and of course access to the cleric spell list, and then you go wizard for all the rituals, high level spells which are hard to replicate with the Mizzium apparatus, and other wizard goodies like arcane recovery.

You can cast any cantrip on the fly (except eldritch blast and vicious mockery), you're an unadulterated full caster (with delays in spells known, but the Mizzium apparatus fixes that) and can cast something like 95% of the spells in the books without needing to even prepare them (there's about 50 spells that you can't cast, though a bunch of those are dunamancy spells that you could potentially get through your choice of wizard subclass).

If you get a stone of good luck, ioun stone of supreme intellect, ioun stone of mastery, and tome of clear thought you will have a minimum arcana check of 10 (dragon form) + 6 (int) + 14 (expertise + ioun stone) + 2 (magic items) + 1 (race) = 33 allowing you to cast any spell of any level.

[jaappleton]

I still think Druid 2/Cleric 1/Wizard X is a better omni-caster. You only really need 13 Wisdom to make this work, so you can max out Int easily enough.

Druid 2 gets you dragon form and access to the druid spell list, Cleric 1 gets you armor/weapon proficiencies if you want them or expertise in arcana (you could replicate this will the skill expert feat) and of course access to the cleric spell list, and then you go wizard for all the rituals, high level spells which are hard to replicate with the Mizzium apparatus, and other wizard goodies like arcane recovery.

You can cast any cantrip on the fly (except eldritch blast and vicious mockery), you're an unadulterated full caster (with delays in spells known, but the Mizzium apparatus fixes that) and can cast something like 95% of the spells in the books without needing to even prepare them (there's about 50 spells that you can't cast, though a bunch of those are dunamancy spells that you could potentially get through your choice of wizard subclass).

If you get a stone of good luck, ioun stone of supreme intellect, ioun stone of mastery, and tome of clear thought you will have a minimum arcana check of 10 (dragon form) + 6 (int) + 14 (expertise + ioun stone) + 2 (magic items) + 1 (race) = 33 allowing you to cast any spell of any level.

The reading I have of Mizzium Apparatus is that, because it requires attunement to a Wiz / Sorc / Warlock, it grants access to those lists. So the item has no impact on Cleric or its spells or spell slots. If I had one level of Cleric, I'd only have the standard fare of what that brings.

Am I incorrect in that?

[kaervaak]

The reading I have of Mizzium Apparatus is that, because it requires attunement to a Wiz / Sorc / Warlock, it grants access to those lists. So the item has no impact on Cleric or its spells or spell slots. If I had one level of Cleric, I'd only have the standard fare of what that brings.

Am I incorrect in that?

That's not my reading of it, but I see where you're coming from. I always read it as you need to meet the prerequisite to attune to it, but then you can access any spell list that you have levels in, similar to using a scroll.

[jaappleton]

That's not my reading of it, but I see where you're coming from. I always read it as you need to meet the prerequisite to attune to it, but then you can access any spell list that you have levels in, similar to using a scroll.

Its an arcane focus.

Not a druidic focus, or a holy symbol.

Or can focuses be used for all manner of things if you MC?

[Dalinar]

BTW, if I'm reading Counterspell correctly, you'd need an "ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell’s level" in the case of counterspelling a 4th-level or higher spell.

That's just a raw INT/WIS/CHA check, not Arcana or anything, right? So that minimum 10 roll from Dragon, plus a +4 or so from your ability mod, is enough to guarantee a Counterspell on a 4th-level spell, but you still have to roll 11 or better to Counterspell a 5th-level spell unless you're rocking a maxed out casting stat (at which point the threshold is sixth level instead).

And the only way for WIS classes to get Counterspell as far as I can tell is a Ravnica background (Azorius Functionary), or Eberron's Mark of Sentinel Human, or else multiclass into a caster of a different ability.

The only other ways I'm aware of to boost a Counterspell check are Jack of All Trades (so Druid 2/Lore 6) or Improved Abjuration (so Druid 2/Abjurer 10), which let you add (part of or all of) your proficiency bonus to the check, which makes it significantly more likely to matter--at Druid 2/Lore 7 that's a +2 to the check, so given an 18 CHA you're looking at free Counterspells up to sixth level, which should cover you pretty well for at least a few levels. Dunno if it's worth the delay in Lore levels, but it's an option. As for the Abjurer version, because it adds the full proficiency bonus, you'd be able to Counterspell very nearly everything in the game for free. Comes online really late, but in the meantime, you're an Abjurer, which is hardly a bad thing. Again, dunno if it's worth delaying those late-game Wizard goodies when you're so close, though.

Did I miss anything?

[kaervaak]

Its an arcane focus.

Not a druidic focus, or a holy symbol.

Or can focuses be used for all manner of things if you MC?

No, you can't freely swap foci around. However, the lines describing the arcane focus ability of the mizzium apparatus and the flexible casting ability are separate. There's no stipulation in the text that you have to cast the spell through the Apparatus. It just says "In addition, you can attempt to cast a spell that you do not know or have prepared. The spell you choose must be on your class's spell list and of a level for which you have a spell slot, and you must provide the spell's components." Those seem to be only only requirements, so it seems to me (by RAW though maybe not RAI) that you can cast a spell from any spell list you have access to.

[Dork_Forge]

BTW, if I'm reading Counterspell correctly, you'd need an "ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell’s level" in the case of counterspelling a 4th-level or higher spell.

That's just a raw INT/WIS/CHA check, not Arcana or anything, right? So that minimum 10 roll from Dragon, plus a +4 or so from your ability mod, is enough to guarantee a Counterspell on a 4th-level spell, but you still have to roll 11 or better to Counterspell a 5th-level spell unless you're rocking a maxed out casting stat (at which point the threshold is sixth level instead).

And the only way for WIS classes to get Counterspell as far as I can tell is a Ravnica background (Azorius Functionary), or Eberron's Mark of Sentinel Human, or else multiclass into a caster of a different ability.

The only other ways I'm aware of to boost a Counterspell check are Jack of All Trades (so Druid 2/Lore 6) or Improved Abjuration (so Druid 2/Abjurer 10), which let you add (part of or all of) your proficiency bonus to the check, which makes it significantly more likely to matter--at Druid 2/Lore 7 that's a +2 to the check, so given an 18 CHA you're looking at free Counterspells up to sixth level, which should cover you pretty well for at least a few levels. Dunno if it's worth the delay in Lore levels, but it's an option. As for the Abjurer version, because it adds the full proficiency bonus, you'd be able to Counterspell very nearly everything in the game for free. Comes online really late, but in the meantime, you're an Abjurer, which is hardly a bad thing. Again, dunno if it's worth delaying those late-game Wizard goodies when you're so close, though.

Did I miss anything?

Guidance can technically help too, just unlikely to be in effect.

The same rules apply to Dispel Magic, which Druids do actually get on their list.

[stoutstien]

Guidance can technically help too, just unlikely to be in effect.

The same rules apply to Dispel Magic, which Druids do actually get on their list.

Having an artificer in the party could guarantee 100% success by supporting anybody using dragon as a CS booster.

[RogueJK]

I do like the idea of a Stars Druid 2/Abjurer Wizard X. Dragon Form means auto-counterspell for up to Level 4/5 spells from Abjurer 5 through Abjurer 9, and then auto-counterspell for all levels of spells from then on.

Something like a Tortle with:

STR 8
DEX 10
CON 13
INT 15+2
WIS 15+1
CHA 10

Abjurer 5 -> Stars 2 -> Abjurer X (Or start Stars 2 first, if you'd prefer to have Druid skill proficiencies and get Druid spells online sooner, at the cost of delaying Counterspell and Fireball.)

AC is 17 until Level 6, then bumps to 19 once you gain shield proficiency at Level 6 (Druid 1).

Take a +1 INT half-feat like Telekinetic or Fey Touched at Abjurer 4. Take Resilient CON at Abjurer 8.

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/958087041777979392/lizn5fWZ.jpg

[Seclora]

I do like the idea of a Stars Druid 2/Abjurer Wizard X. Dragon Form means auto-counterspell for up to Level 4/5 spells from Abjurer 5 through Abjurer 9, and then auto-counterspell for all levels of spells from then on.

Something like a Tortle with:

STR 8
DEX 10
CON 13
INT 15+2
WIS 15+1
CHA 10

Abjurer 5 -> Stars 2 -> Abjurer X (Or start Stars 2 first, if you'd prefer to have Druid skill proficiencies and get Druid spells online sooner, at the cost of delaying Counterspell and Fireball.)

AC is 17 until Level 6, then bumps to 19 once you gain shield proficiency at Level 6 (Druid 1).

Take a +1 INT half-feat like Telekinetic or Fey Touched at Abjurer 4. Take Resilient CON at Abjurer 8.

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/958087041777979392/lizn5fWZ.jpg

This might be my favorite new Abjurer build. And you could even pick up a little healing to keep your allies alive even longer too!