A punchy boy Warlock build needs some help.

[Nasr]

SO.

I'm playing a new campaign soon, and my DM and I worked out a way to make my warlock an eldritch pugilist. He's an old pit fighter who got old and made a pact to keep fighting since his body started to give out.

We'll remove the range from eldritch blast and turn it into a melee cantrip, removing the disadvantage it would give me for using it in melee. With the scaling, it will work out like an extra attack for all intents and purposes.

COOL.

So it works like a fighter, and I intend to pick up a couple levels in fighter to get action surge.

BUT.

Since we're starting level 1, I'm not sure which class to choose first. We figured out how to work both starts story wise, so the question is: which Ability Score proficiencies are better for a warlock who functions as a fighter?

Fighter would make a rough level 1 since CHA is his main stat, but it'd be fun from a roleplay perspective, so that doesn't matter.

IN CONCLUSION.

General proficiencies are reduntant since the fighter multiclass gears you out. SHOULD I CHOOSE the class with STR+CON or WIS+CHA proficiencies?

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk, I appretiate your feedback.

[Kuulvheysoon]

SO.

I'm playing a new campaign soon, and my DM and I worked out a way to make my warlock an eldritch pugilist. He's an old pit fighter who got old and made a pact to keep fighting since his body started to give out.

We'll remove the range from eldritch blast and turn it into a melee cantrip, removing the disadvantage it would give me for using it in melee. With the scaling, it will work out like an extra attack for all intents and purposes.

COOL.

So it works like a fighter, and I intend to pick up a couple levels in fighter to get action surge.

BUT.

Since we're starting level 1, I'm not sure which class to choose first. We figured out how to work both starts story wise, so the question is: which Ability Score proficiencies are better for a warlock who functions as a fighter?

Fighter would make a rough level 1 since CHA is his main stat, but it'd be fun from a roleplay perspective, so that doesn't matter.

IN CONCLUSION.

General proficiencies are reduntant since the fighter multiclass gears you out. SHOULD I CHOOSE the class with STR+CON or WIS+CHA proficiencies?

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk, I appretiate your feedback.

Actually, multiclassing Fighter notably won't give you Heavy Armor, so that's something to consider if that's important to you. Starting Fighter will also give you a little bit of added survivability with 10 + Con HP at first level, as opposed to 8 + Con HP.

[Catullus64]

When I read your concept, I think starting out as fighter would be a cool idea. With Charisma as your highest stat, and presumably less-than-stellar STR and CON, you can actually show rather than tell vis-a-vis the fact that this guy's getting old and has a hard time keeping up. Then, at a later level, when the devil or Shub-Niggurath or whatever shows up with a tempting offer, not only does the decision to accept seem more sympathetic, but you get to feel the same rush of power that the character presumably does.

Check with your DM as to whether the usual Eldritch Blast invocations still apply. Is it super important to get Agonizing Blast, or can you perhaps get a bit fancy with Repelling Blast? If I was in your shoes, I'd lobby for Eldritch Spear granting 10 foot reach. All on the table with a DM as accommodating as yours sounds.

[Unoriginal]

Three questions:
- Do you intend to use heavy armor ?

- Do you intend to take the Unarmed fighting style?

- Do you intend to take enough Fighter levels for a subclass, and if yes which one ?

[Sorinth]

What are your stats and what are you doing for armour/shield?

You can easily flavour Dexterity as experience rather then quickness. So even though you might be slowed down from age, you can read/anticipate enemies very well in order to be in the right place at the right time which makes you seem quicker then you really are.

So it's feasible to do something like Armor of Shadows + 16 Dex and be in/near the front line. Especially if you are also taking Fiendish Vigor and/or Fiend Patron to get those extra temp HPs.

I'd also ask the DM whether you can take Grasp of Hadar and essentially grant a 10ft reach. Basically roll the attack if you hit they are moved into melee range and you do your damage. If you miss they avoid whatever was trying to pull them towards you.


I don't think you really need Fighter levels (Unless you plan on using heavy armour), so I would go straight Warlock and just have a background/skill selection that makes sense. Since all in all no armour/shield frontliner using a no/limited range EB is nerf you can maybe talk your DM into giving you something like a free grapple related feat (Grappler, Tavern Brawler, Skill Expert: Athletics). Since you probably have a low Strength score anyways it's not going to be game breaking in anyway.

[Kuulvheysoon]

...

I don't think you really need Fighter levels (Unless you plan on using heavy armour), so I would go straight Warlock and just have a background/skill selection that makes sense. Since all in all no armour/shield frontliner using a no/limited range EB is nerf you can maybe talk your DM into giving you something like a free grapple related feat (Grappler, Tavern Brawler, Skill Expert: Athletics). Since you probably have a low Strength score anyways it's not going to be game breaking in anyway.

I wouldn't exactly call a limited range EB a nerf, per se. OP has stated that the DM will allow the multiple attacks, so you're getting a Warlock with Extra Attack (3) by 17th level. So it's a 1d10 force damage (so ignoring resistance to nonmagical) melee weapon that deals Charisma mod (with Agonizing Blast, assuming that it'll work like that).

[RogueJK]

If you're really wanting to play a pugilist, that'd mean no armor and no shield. So starting Fighter doesn't get you much, and actively hampers your Eldritch Pugilist concept. Therefore, start Warlock with a high CHA and DEX and a moderate CON, and plan on taking Agonizing Blast (Agonizing Punch?) and Armor of Shadows ASAP at Level 2.


You can decide later on (like after Warlock 5ish) whether you really want to dip Fighter 2 for Action Surge and something like Blind Fighting style. But I don't think that's necessary.


Fathomless Warlock would be an interesting choice for this character, as an old pirate bareknuckle boxer who made a pact with some eldritch ocean beastie. The tentacle would also work well alongside your Eldritch Punches, and would give you a way to leverage your Bonus Actions into extra damage.

[msfnc]

I have a similar Warlock character concept for a game that starts later this week. He's a wanna-be Monk. Rather than multiclassing or messing with RAW, I chose to start with the Gunner feat (Crossbow Expert would work as well) to negate the disadvantage on melee attacks. The story is that he wanted to be a monk, family honor blahblahblah, but he just couldn't grasp the discipline and focus required (low Wisdom score). So, he cheats. Gets a Dao patron and pretends to be a monk. Eldritch blasts at melee range appear to be mighty ki-fueled strikes. Hex is flavored to appear to be fast/repetitive strikes (to emulate flurry of blows). Mage Armor invocation replaces Unarmored Defense. At level 4, he'll take Magic Initiate (wizard) to grab Shield (replacing deflect missile {once}). The build has a lot of warts, but the idea of keeping the truth from my fellow party members for as long as possible seems like a lot of fun.

[Sorinth]

I wouldn't exactly call a limited range EB a nerf, per se. OP has stated that the DM will allow the multiple attacks, so you're getting a Warlock with Extra Attack (3) by 17th level. So it's a 1d10 force damage (so ignoring resistance to nonmagical) melee weapon that deals Charisma mod (with Agonizing Blast, assuming that it'll work like that).

You aren't getting extra attacks you get the same number of attacks except now they are melee attacks instead of ranged ones which is worse. And on top of that you're a class with only Light Armor and a smaller HD, that's not a great combo especially when you can't simply increase Dex and improve both your attack and AC like a normal ranged build could do.

It's most definitely a worse build then a standard EB Warlock. Now whether that matters or not is up to the OP and the DM. A free grapple based feat is thematic and not overpowered. Frankly power wise it's still not enough but it will at least help get the character concept to work better.

[Nasr]

First off, thank you for all your replies! Now, I'm gonna hit you with some of my thoughts on what you said:


I am aware of multiclassing not providing the heavy armor proficiency.
If I were to start warlock, I'd multiclass into fighter and use some Dexterity to benefit from medium armor, as some of you pointed out. Because this character isn't meant to be strong, I didn't feel he could wear heavy armor anyway. I'm doing some calcs over here and 16 DEX + armor of shadows seems most effective at first, but that could be matched or even beat with a chain shirt or breast plate if I pick the defense fighting style. Since he's becoming more of a vagrant and less of a ring fighter, armor is good for the road.

He won't be wearing shields.
Defense fighting Style would mitigate that a bit, not to mention magic items and armor further down the line (we have an artificer). Blindsight does seem like a fun little feature to explore, like a fighter's instinct or something. Maybe even a minor maneuver with superior technique. Unarmed would be good if he was STR focused, but I think that won't be the case.

I think starting fighter is great role play.
It'll be rough, but fun. Also YES, agonizing blast and repelling blast were my main invocations when I first had this idea. I forgot to mention that. I'd try to play him as kind of a controller in fights, since our party is made up of a rune knight and an artificer.

He will be a fiend warlock.
Yeah, Dark One's Blessing is good for survivability, as is DO's Own Luck and Fiendish resilience. Fiendish Vigor is also good, but it would take a spot in my invocations. Maybe I could run agonizing/fiendish vigor until lv5, then get repelling blast.

On the overall power of this build and its options.
I'm aware of the fact that this EB limitation is not at all optimized and a nerf as far as offensive capabilities go, and I'm super fine with that. It's the concept and it's okay. I'm not really trying to make it super optimized or find a way to get the range back, but to work out a way to make it a leaner build, so it doesn't have too many conditions and doesn't take a long time to come online.

Oh, and Toll the Dead could be his ranged option as a freakin' boxing ring bell, of course.

Variant Human or Protector Aasimar
At first he was meant to be a human with the tough feat. It's pretty standard and my first idea to make up for the smaller HD (effectively bumping him up to a d12's average).

Based on what you guys said and his background (his fighter nickname was phoenix), I'm thinking I could make up for the range with mobility by being a protector aasimar. He's got a fiery vibe and the wings would be very helpful in quite a few situations. I know, I know. Aasimar good/fiend patron bad, but I'm not sure they will in fact be a fiend. We like to play loose with lore and characters more like individuals with no universal alignment, so that might not really be a thing.

Edit: I could also look into a grappling or fighting feat with the DM, but since we have a rune knight I dont think I'll be the grapply one.

Edit 2: He might be wearing shields
I figured that if I start fighter, I can still use shields and cast EB. Then its just a matter of flavoring it like a pair of bracers/bucklers like captain americas' "shields" in avengers infinity war. Whaddaya think?

Edit 3: But my question though.
I loved your suggestions and I took them into account, but what about the AS proficiencies? Objectively speaking, would a frontliner warlock benefit from his proficiencies or from a fighter's proficiencies? All this considering what we discussed.

[Sherlockpwns]

As I understand it the armor problem comes down to this

Fighter in medium armor with shield and defense style = 19ac base.

The closest a non-hex blade warlock can get is…

Armor of shadows: 18 (but realistically 16)
Tortle: 17
Loxodon 15-16 realistically
Mountain dwarf: 16
war forged or simic: 16 realistically

There is one more option though: human and take moderately armored for 1 dex and prof medium/shields.

This gets you only 1 AC shy of where you’d be dipping fighter, and frankly, that seems pretty compelling. A half feat for ~2AC. 18 is ok for front line, though imo it is the bare minimum.

If you are dead set on the dip I’d approach this entirely from the role play aspect: what is this character going to be strong against? Poisons, conditions (blind etc), and being pushed around (str) or being controlled and charmed?

Or to put it another way- is he physically stubborn or mentally stubborn?

[Kane0]

Start fighter, ask your DM if they can work in the unarmed fighting style somehow. Go into warlock after 2-3 levels and never look back.
Make sure you check with your DM what things might work with melee EB (eg Battlemaster maneuvers, champion crits, etc) before you make that decision.

Having lots of Cha makes sense for a gladiator background, having mediocre str/dex/con even moreso if your entire premise is 'bargain with patron for martial prowess'

[da newt]

I'd be tempted to go Undead Warlock for the Intimidation/Fear effect.

Thematically I'd have issues with a pugilist who wields a shield - I'd definitely reskin that as gauntlets w/ bracers (maybe even spikey to catch blades and rake - batman vibe).

If you go V Human or Custom you could take RES CON or WIS to have both saves, otherwise IF you will be trying to concentrate on something vital while in melee with a med AC, I'd prioritize CON over WIS saves, but if your build doesn't rely on concentration then I prefer WIS as WIS save failures are debilitating.

I'd eventually go to fighter 3 for BM moves (assuming your DM will allow them on your EB hits).

Shield Master might be handy for a BA shove / DEX saves.

[Joe the Rat]

Thematically Fighter, then Warlock fits the arc of the character, but this makes the pact a late addition... unless you start Fighter and Eldritch Adept for, say, Fiendish Vigor. Then when you level up to War 1 you can bump this over to Agonizing, or leave it here and switch out further down the road. I would be sorely tempted to push unarmed fighting, though you are unlikely to benefit from it once you get Warlock running. Grabbing defense from the open would be simplest, and possibly start with swinging a hammer 1st level since you are simply not up to speed for a life or death fight. The saves are more in line with Palooka training.

If the Action Surge Dip wasn't part of your plan, I'd suggest 1st Level as Barbarian for Med armor, Str/Con saves, and also a passable unarmored AC. The only drag here is that Rage is going to be of limited use past 1 - as soon as you can Eldritch Punch, that half damage in combat goes permanently bye-bye, barring the occasional weapon-wielding, semi-emergency resilience needs, or Strength check advantage.

However, Not every Fighter is a pit fighter, nor every pit fighter a Fighter. Diving straight into Warlock makes sense if your story is focused on the ring and not the battlefield. Going Mod Armored (as Sherlockpwns suggests) gets you everything but the fighting style at 1. I've used this before with my retired city watch Fiendlock.


I have a similar Warlock character concept for a game that starts later this week. He's a wanna-be Monk. Rather than multiclassing or messing with RAW, I chose to start with the Gunner feat (Crossbow Expert would work as well) to negate the disadvantage on melee attacks. The story is that he wanted to be a monk, family honor blahblahblah, but he just couldn't grasp the discipline and focus required (low Wisdom score). So, he cheats. Gets a Dao patron and pretends to be a monk. Eldritch blasts at melee range appear to be mighty ki-fueled strikes. Hex is flavored to appear to be fast/repetitive strikes (to emulate flurry of blows). Mage Armor invocation replaces Unarmored Defense. At level 4, he'll take Magic Initiate (wizard) to grab Shield (replacing deflect missile {once}). The build has a lot of warts, but the idea of keeping the truth from my fellow party members for as long as possible seems like a lot of fun.
This is the core of my "Fake Monk" Warlock build. Layered with sorcerer and fighter, it was fun to launch opponents across the field with many punches. I'm going to have to look at this again with the genies.

[Nasr]

Thematically Fighter, then Warlock fits the arc of the character, but this makes the pact a late addition... unless you start Fighter and Eldritch Adept for, say, Fiendish Vigor. Then when you level up to War 1 you can bump this over to Agonizing, or leave it here and switch out further down the road. I would be sorely tempted to push unarmed fighting, though you are unlikely to benefit from it once you get Warlock running. Grabbing defense from the open would be simplest, and possibly start with swinging a hammer 1st level since you are simply not up to speed for a life or death fight. The saves are more in line with Palooka training.

If the Action Surge Dip wasn't part of your plan, I'd suggest 1st Level as Barbarian for Med armor, Str/Con saves, and also a passable unarmored AC. The only drag here is that Rage is going to be of limited use past 1 - as soon as you can Eldritch Punch, that half damage in combat goes permanently bye-bye, barring the occasional weapon-wielding, semi-emergency resilience needs, or Strength check advantage.

However, Not every Fighter is a pit fighter, nor every pit fighter a Fighter. Diving straight into Warlock makes sense if your story is focused on the ring and not the battlefield. Going Mod Armored (as Sherlockpwns suggests) gets you everything but the fighting style at 1. I've used this before with my retired city watch Fiendlock.


This is the core of my "Fake Monk" Warlock build. Layered with sorcerer and fighter, it was fun to launch opponents across the field with many punches. I'm going to have to look at this again with the genies.

I think you guys make a good point with the warlock/moderately armored thing, and there's also the matter of pact boons. I've given it some thought, and it seems like Chain is the better option, even without Gift of The Ever-living Ones. Projecting your senses, casting through your familiar, the help action etc.

On the other hand, wouldn't fighter 1/defense fighting style/tough feat bring more value in the long run? Second wind and gift of the ever-living ones can synergize, tough will bump hp quite a bit and his overall AC will be bigger with defense, not to mention the infusions from our artificer.

I'm also rethinking fighter 2, as action surge doesn't seem to be quite as effective short term. We currently plan on playing until around level 7, and then seeing if we should continue. I think I'd rather have invocations, boons and spells over an extra action.

I've also been thinking about that Protector Aasimar thing. Here's what my level 1 looks like on both races:

Variant Human
17 CHA
14 CON
14 DEX
12 WIS

One feat

Protector Aasimar
18 CHA
14 CON
12 DEX
14 WIS

60ft of darkvision
30ft flying speed
Built-in smol heal
Resistance to necrotic and radiant
The light cantrip, I guess?
The option of a feat at level 4 instead of 20 CHA, or even a bit of CON or DEX

Not gonna lie, Aasimar is looking interesting even with the AC drop. Especially when you consider I'm not the only tank in the party.

[RogueJK]

However, Not every Fighter is a pit fighter, nor every pit fighter a Fighter. Diving straight into Warlock makes sense if your story is focused on the ring and not the battlefield.

Also, keep in mind that being Level 1 doesn't mean you're just coming out of adolescence and have no prior life experience. Character Levels represent what makes Adventurers stand out above and beyond the capability of mundane folks. So it's entirely possible for a Level 1 character of any class to be an older character who has a past history as a soldier, or a pit fighter, or a pirate, or whatever. That can be represented by their background, and their skill proficiencies, and by roleplaying, yet not necessarily by their initial character class.

[Kane0]

Variant Human
17 CHA
14 CON
14 DEX
12 WIS
One feat

Protector Aasimar
18 CHA
14 CON
12 DEX
14 WIS

60ft of darkvision
30ft flying speed
Built-in smol heal
Resistance to necrotic and radiant
The light cantrip, I guess?
The option of a feat at level 4 instead of 20 CHA, or even a bit of CON or DEX


That human feat can nicely dovetail your background and class together, such as by getting Eldritch Adept on Fighter 1 or by getting Moderately Armored or Fighting Adept on Warlock 1. That could save you from multiclassing entirely really.

What does your DM think about working something like a cestus or brass knuckles into Blade Pact? Or working the unarmed fighting style into the melee EB for that matter? Could make for some nice synergies if they're going to allow it.

[Unoriginal]

Suggestion for theme song:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5T60KuDDyJ8