Rules Q&A Old Dragonwrought Kobold = Epic PrC access pre-level 21? [Archive]

redking

2021-07-18, 09:49 PM

Draconomicon, page 66, top of the second column.

This is the quote.

EPIC FEATS
These feats are available to characters of 21st level or higher. Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels. A selection of epic feats appropriate for dragons is presented here. See the Epic Level Handbook for more epic feats.

This paragraph is widely misunderstood. All of the true dragons have 21 racial hit dice or over at mature age. The dragon age categories are as follows.

1 Wyrmling
2 Very young
3 Young
4 Juvenile
5 Young adult
6 Adult
7 Mature adult
8 Old
9 Very old
10 Ancient
11 Wyrm
12 Great wyrm
What is affirmed is that dragons can use their racial hit dice for the purpose of taking epic feats - and they are slightly restricted too, because their epic feats are not available when they have 21HD, but later when they reach the old age category.

As for Dragonwrought Kobold, most of the epic feats have prerequisites that the Dragonwrought Kobold will not be able to meet pre-epic. The epic feats without prerequisites are of a lesser nature, so it should not matter too much even if it had access to those feats.

Gruftzwerg

2021-07-19, 12:06 AM

As the others have pointed out, the rule only works for epic feats and not for PRC.

____________

This is the quote.

This paragraph is widely misunderstood. All of the true dragons have 21 racial hit dice or over at mature age. The dragon age categories are as follows.

1 Wyrmling
2 Very young
3 Young
4 Juvenile
5 Young adult
6 Adult
7 Mature adult
8 Old
9 Very old
10 Ancient
11 Wyrm
12 Great wyrm
What is affirmed is that dragons can use their racial hit dice for the purpose of taking epic feats - and they are slightly restricted too, because their epic feats are not available when they have 21HD, but later when they reach the old age category.

As for Dragonwrought Kobold, most of the epic feats have prerequisites that the Dragonwrought Kobold will not be able to meet pre-epic. The epic feats without prerequisites are of a lesser nature, so it should not matter too much even if it had access to those feats.

RAI you (may be) are right. But since RAI is (imho) inconsistent on this topic it doesn't help us much.

By RAW, the text only asks for "Dragons" of "Old Age".
It doesn't specifically ask for True Dragons (even if this might be the intention).
Nor does the rule care for the general requirement of a 21st lvl character (specific trumps general).
It only asks you, if you are a dragon of old age, not more not less. And if you qualify, it lets you bypass the regular requirement (21+ lvl).

_____________

In the D&D game, the term “dragon” encompasses a number of different creatures, some of which bear little resemblance to the great flying creatures with breath weapons that we commonly think of as dragons.
For the most part, this book concerns itself with the ten varieties of true dragon described in the Monster Manual — the five chromatic dragons (black, blue, green, red, white) and the five metallic dragons (brass, bronze, copper, gold, silver).
True dragons are those creatures that become more powerful as they grow older.
A number of other true dragons are described in Chapter 4 of this book. In addition, Appendix 2: Index of Dragons provides a complete list of all true dragons that have been presented in official sources.
Other creatures of the dragon type that do not advance through age categories are referred to as lesser dragons (which should not be taken to mean that they are necessarily less formidable than true dragons).
The three kinds of lesser dragon described in the Monster Manual are the dragon turtle, the pseudodragon, and the wyvern.
Chapter 4 of this book contains a number of descriptions of other lesser dragons, and Appendix 2 lists every lesser dragon that has been described in a DUNGEONS & DRAGONS rule-book or accessory.

"True dragons are those creatures that become more powerful as they grow older." = DWK purely gain stats for becoming older and no penalties, thus become more powerful (a non defined term, thus general English definition here).

"creatures of the dragon type that do not advance through age categories are referred to as lesser dragons " = DWK can't be lesser dragons since they have dragon "age categories". And only TD have those Age Categories (a defined term) while all other creatures (including lesser dragons) only have access to "Aging Effects" (another defined term, this time from the PHB). And it doesn't ask you for "Advancement" (a defined 3.5 term), it only asks you "to advance through age categories", which the DWK does. And the next point will explain why "Advancement" can't be a requirement.

For true dragons other than those found in the Monster Manual, construct tables such as those above using the information on Table 3–22: Additional Level Adjustments.
Advancement can't be a requirement for being a TD, when all TD who don't have it, get it for free from the DM. Which leaves us at the mercy of the DM how such a table for a DWK would look. Ideally for optimization would be +0LA, but the DM could also just copy the advancement of a regular TD and thus make all optimization attempts meaningless.

Final Conclusion: DWK is totally at the DMs mercy when it comes to TD optimization.
...which is what you would expect from such an elegant and perfect system like 3.5, which doesn't have any dysfunctions at all..

redking

2021-07-19, 05:50 AM

By RAW, the text only asks for "Dragons" of "Old Age".
It doesn't specifically ask for True Dragons (even if this might be the intention).
Nor does the rule care for the general requirement of a 21st lvl character (specific trumps general).
It only asks you, if you are a dragon of old age, not more not less. And if you qualify, it lets you bypass the regular requirement (21+ lvl).

True Dragons, of which Dragonwrought Kobolds are supposedly, advance 3 racial hit dice per age category. Why stop at feats? Its RAW (albeit, completely out of context).

This discussion is enlightening (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?564844-Dragonwrought-Kobolds-and-epic-dragon-cheese).

pabelfly

2021-07-19, 06:14 AM

Reading through a few of the different links provided, I came across this passage, which I thought was convincing:

A dragon PC begins at a specified age (in accordance with the current party level in the campaign) and gains character levels as the player wishes over the course of its adventures. As it ages from wyrmling to juvenile, a true dragon’s level adjustment varies between +2 and +6, depending on the age and dragon variety. For a dragon PC, the dragon’s Hit Dice and class levels plus this level adjustment is its effective character level (ECL). For a starting character of juvenile or younger age, this ECL is somewhere between 5 and 20.
As it ages, as shown on Table 3–21: Aging for Dragon PCs, the dragon is required to devote a level every few years to its dragon “class,” reflecting the extra Hit Die or level adjustment it gains from aging. The character must add this dragon level as the first level it gains after reaching an age shown on the table. It gains no benefit from reaching a new age category until it attains this level.

If you want to play the "Old Dragonwrought Kobolds are Dragons" card to try and get your cheese, I'd be asking where all your racial hit dice are for all the age advancements of your dragon character are. Since you're a dragon and all.

Endarire

2021-07-19, 06:18 AM

Having read various arguments on the subject...

-There's no mention of Old+ Dragons qualifying based on their age and creature type for anything epic but feats.

-The Draconomicon 66 passage alone regarding Old+ Dragons qualifying for epic feats implies that any creature of the Dragon type that's Old+ qualifies.

-There are enough inconsistencies throughout the book that this is an, "Ask your GM" topic.

Thankee!

Darg

2021-07-19, 09:38 AM

The rules for monsters as races mentions that they use total HD for feat acquisition. So you get epic feats starting at 21 HD. The epic level handbook defines an epic level character as a character who reaches character level 21.

ACQUIRING EPIC FEATS
Just like regular feats, epic feats are chosen rather than
bought with points. Characters gain epic feats in the fol-
lowing ways:
• At 21st level, and every three levels thereafter, the char-
acter may select an epic feat in place of a nonepic feat,
• Each character class gains bonus epic feats according to
the class description. These feats must be selected from
the list of bonus epic feats for that class.

EPIC FEATS
These feats are available to characters of 21st level or higher.
Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even
if they have no class levels. A selection of epic feats appro-
priate for dragons is presented here. See the Epic Level Hand-
book for more epic feats.

Despite what people want to believe, a dragonwrought kobold must still have achieved character level 21 to pick epic feats. It has nothing to do with class levels at all unless that class is in epic progression with a bonus feat. Even if you read it as dragons with no class levels get an exception, all kobolds have 1 humanoid HD and this means they must trade it with a class level. Therefore the exception doesn't apply.

Remuko

2021-07-19, 10:22 AM

Despite what people want to believe, a dragonwrought kobold must still have achieved character level 21 to pick epic feats. It has nothing to do with class levels at all unless that class is in epic progression with a bonus feat. Even if you read it as dragons with no class levels get an exception, all kobolds have 1 humanoid HD and this means they must trade it with a class level. Therefore the exception doesn't apply.

It says even if they have no class levels. This doesnt mean if they do they don't qualify. They qualify at old age with or without class levels.

redking

2021-07-19, 10:52 AM

It says even if they have no class levels. This doesnt mean if they do they don't qualify. They qualify at old age with or without class levels.

Yes. Because all of the true dragons have 21 racial hit dice or over at mature age but cannot take epic feats until they are old age. The context is clear. It is not meant to be an advantage for [Dragon] type creatures with the [Kobold] subtype.

ThanatosZero

2021-07-19, 12:18 PM

Troacctid

2021-07-19, 12:45 PM

Reading through a few of the different links provided, I came across this passage, which I thought was convincing:

If you want to play the "Old Dragonwrought Kobolds are Dragons" card to try and get your cheese, I'd be asking where all your racial hit dice are for all the age advancements of your dragon character are. Since you're a dragon and all.
Nobody says dragonwrought kobolds aren't dragons. Giving them the dragon type is literally the primary effect of the feat. 😆

Gruftzwerg

2021-07-19, 12:47 PM

DWK do not count as True Dragons, but as a Lesser Dragons because for a couple of reasons.

For a creature to count as a True Dragon, they have to fullfill the following criteria.
1. The dragon type
2. Increasing LA by aging
3. Increasing HD by aging

There is a special case from Dragon Magazine, where Sea Serpents fullfill all criteria, but are specifically not treated as True Dragons.
This is a example where specifics trump over general.

If you have only the dragon typing you are a Lesser Dragon.

To Note:
A Phaerimm has all qualities of a True Dragon (Number 2 and 3), except for the dragon typing as they are aberations.
A Half-Dragon Phaerimm by RAW would be a True Dragon for fullfilling all criteria.

2. & 3. "Advancement" (LA & HD increase by age) is not a requirement to be a True Dragon. It's literary the other way around. All True Dragon get Advancement if don't already have it. We have a rule for that (see the spoiler in my first post: Draconomicon P144 "Other True Dragons"). The DM is enforced to make up a table entry for the DWK. And it's up to him if he gives them the same treatment as other True Dragons with +RHD & +LA (and gives them abilities according for that - and killing any DWK abuse potential) or if he treats as +0 RHD & LA and leave em further untouched (and opens em up for cheese).

Imho the first option (to give them +RHD and +LA) is definitively not the designer intention. Imho the desginers of the DWK feat didn't know what he was doing there. But what you and you table (or DM) do for your table is totally another question. Everybody should rule it as they feel fine about it (regarding table power balance).

Darg

2021-07-19, 02:18 PM

It says even if they have no class levels. This doesnt mean if they do they don't qualify. They qualify at old age with or without class levels.

Except the statement is not mutually exclusive with the one before it requiring character level 21. That was the point I was making. Let's rewrite it with other definitive statements that mean the same thing as "even if."

These feats are available to characters of 21st level or higher. Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats despite the possibility that they have no class levels.

These feats are available to characters of 21st level or higher. Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats no matter whether they have no class levels.

The statement is saying they can choose these feats despite not having class levels. Even if (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/even%20if)

pabelfly

2021-07-19, 02:23 PM

Nobody says dragonwrought kobolds aren't dragons. Giving them the dragon type is literally the primary effect of the feat. 😆

Worded badly, fair point, but I think I still have a point. If you're artificially ageing your dragon, where's all of the extra racial hit dice?

Gruftzwerg

2021-07-19, 04:36 PM

Worded badly, fair point, but I think I still have a point. If you're artificially ageing your dragon, where's all of the extra racial hit dice?

...in the hands of your DM, as stated in Draconomicon P144 "Other True Dragons". Your DM is supposed to make up an "Advancement" table for DWK. And he has total freedom. He can go for +RHD & +LA and give abilities according for that or just use +0 values if he sees it fit. See the spoiler in my first post if you want a quick quote on that text passage.

Darg

2021-07-19, 06:38 PM

...in the hands of your DM, as stated in Draconomicon P144 "Other True Dragons". Your DM is supposed to make up an "Advancement" table for DWK. And he has total freedom. He can go for +RHD & +LA and give abilities according for that or just use +0 values if he sees it fit. See the spoiler in my first post if you want a quick quote on that text passage.

Other True Dragons
For true dragons other than those found in the Monster Manual, construct tables such as those above using the information on Table 3–22: Additional Level Adjustments.

Dragonwrought kobold is not on the table. Therefore you cannot construct a table for them.

Kobolds are not a variety of dragon. Nor do they advance through age categories. Kobolds advance through class level.

A dragonwrought egg is spotted with the color of the True dragon type chosen with the feat. Dragonwrought kobold is not a color.

Furthermore, wherever the dragons’ blood had spilled, little creatures began to emerge out of the ground with alert, crimson eyes, already looking up at their creators for guidance. Thus were kobolds born, witnesses to the moments during which the immortality of the true dragons slipped away.

Mythic Origins states that kobolds were created after true dragons.

Draconic Heritage for All True Dragons
The table above provides the benefits of the Draconic
Heritage feat for all the kinds of true dragons published
in D&D products to date.

If this isn't proof that Dragonwrought doesn't make a kobold a true dragon, nothing is and it is mythologized.

redking

2021-07-19, 10:23 PM

The dragonwrought kobold doesn't have dragon age categories. It has kobold age categories.

https://i.ibb.co/d7sWzrB/koboldage1.png

If you are granting dragonwrought kobolds access to epic feats at old, you should grant them 3 racial hit dice at each age category, just like all other 'true dragons'.

Gruftzwerg

2021-07-20, 01:18 AM

Dragonwrought kobold is not on the table. Therefore you cannot construct a table for them.

Kobolds are not a variety of dragon. Nor do they advance through age categories. Kobolds advance through class level.

A dragonwrought egg is spotted with the color of the True dragon type chosen with the feat. Dragonwrought kobold is not a color.

Mythic Origins states that kobolds were created after true dragons.

If this isn't proof that Dragonwrought doesn't make a kobold a true dragon, nothing is and it is mythologized.

First: Kobold != DWK
Don't project how the Kobold is handled onto a DWK. They are not the same thing.

"Other True Dragons" literary tells you that this rule is for those TD that are not listed here..., DWK are TDs that are not listed here. Sorry that I have to ask, but did you bother to read the quote?

For true dragons other than those found in the Monster Manual, construct tables such as those above using the information on Table 3–22: Additional Level Adjustments.
A DWK statblock is not to be found in the MM. Therefore the DM is enforced to construct a table for the DWK. Once you count as TD (see draconomicon explanation) you get free "Advancement" at the mercy of the DM.

Finally, DWK don't need to be a variety of their own. They are more like a far related crossbreed, who still inherit the strengths of their TD ancestors. And as per the rules I have shown (in my previous posts), these qualities are enough that per Draconomicon's categorization they are TDs. The fact that "Kobolds" where created after (regular) TDs doesn't prevent DWKs to be TDs (specific beats general).

DWK are not regular Kobolds. As such the "Advancement:Class" line of regular Kobolds in the MM doesn't have to carry over to a DWK, which by the rules can only be a True Dragons.

The dragonwrought kobold doesn't have dragon age categories. It has kobold age categories.

https://i.ibb.co/d7sWzrB/koboldage1.png

If you are granting dragonwrought kobolds access to epic feats at old, you should grant them 3 racial hit dice at each age category, just like all other 'true dragons'.
DWK don't need to have "Dragon Age Categories" to get the cheese here:

1. Draconomicon only asks for "Age Categories" and not especially for "Dragon Age Categories" to qualify you as TD.

2. Nothing else has "Age Categories", only DWK and other TDs. Everything else has "Age Effects". Different defined keywords that are not exchangeable.

As such, the DWK qualifies for being a TD (according to Draconomicon) and the DM is enforced to construct and Advancement table for the DWK as he sees it fit.

Btw, could you point me to the +3 RHD rule you are repeating here? I'm not aware of it and can't seem to find it at first glance..
But again, even if there where such a rule, a DM is still free to treat a DWK as a specific exception to this if he wants (DWK TD cheese). As said, Draconomicon enforces the DM to construct a table. If he should have been following a general rule, he would have been reminded of that here.

redking

2021-07-20, 01:57 AM

First: Kobold != DWK
Don't project how the Kobold is handled onto a DWK. They are not the same thing.

DRAGONWROUGHT [General]
You were born a dragonwrought kobold, proof of your race's innate connection to dragons.

Prerequisites: Kobold, 1st level only.

Benefit: You are a dragon wrought kobold. Your type is dragon rather than humanoid, and you lose the dragonblood subtype. You retain all your other subtypes and your kobold racial traits. Your scales become tinted with a color that matches that of your draconic heritage. As a dragon, you are immune to magic sleep and paralysis effects. You have darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. You gain a +2 racial bonus on the skill indicated for your draconic heritage on the table below.

Special: Unlike most feats, this feat must be taken at 1st level, during character creation. Having this feat allows you to take the Dragon Wings feat at 3rd level.

Relevant: You retain all your other subtypes and your kobold racial traits. What subtypes? The [Kobold] subtype. You retain your kobold racial traits. Then what you gain from the [Dragon] type is spelled out in the feat.

A DWK statblock is not to be found in the MM. Therefore the DM is enforced to construct a table for the DWK. Once you count as TD (see draconomicon explanation) you get free "Advancement" at the mercy of the DM.

This is circular reasoning. You are taking it as a given that the dragonwrought kobold is a 'true dragon', therefore it is a true dragon for which a table must be constructed.

1. Draconomicon only asks for "Age Categories" and not especially for "Dragon Age Categories" to qualify you as TD.

The introduction sidebar tells you the context. Draconomicon only refers 'age categories' in relation to true dragons. The dragonwrought kobold retains its kobold racial traits, including its kobold age categories.

https://i.ibb.co/HYB3kRc/koboldage2.png (https://ibb.co/rMFN1qB)

Btw, could you point me to the +3 RHD rule you are repeating here? I'm not aware of it and can't seem to find it at first glance..
But again, even if there where such a rule, a DM is still free to treat a DWK as a specific exception to this if he wants (DWK TD cheese). As said, Draconomicon enforces the DM to construct a table. If he should have been following a general rule, he would have been reminded of that here.

Every true dragon advances 3 RHD per age category. Since you are making wild inferences based on shaky foundations, you should at least be consistent. Look up true dragons on the SRD. Each age category nets +3 RHD. If dragonwrought kobold is a true dragon, you need to explain why it is the exception.

Gruftzwerg

2021-07-20, 03:00 AM

Relevant: You retain all your other subtypes and your kobold racial traits. What subtypes? The [Kobold] subtype. You retain your kobold racial traits. Then what you gain from the [Dragon] type is spelled out in the feat.

This is circular reasoning. You are taking it as a given that the dragonwrought kobold is a 'true dragon', therefore it is a true dragon for which a table must be constructed.
The feat changes your type to "Dragon" and as such a DWK has to be either a lesser or a true dragon. Draconomicon claims supremacy over the topic and how the two kinds of dragons are defined.

The introduction sidebar tells you the context. Draconomicon only refers 'age categories' in relation to true dragons. The dragonwrought kobold retains its kobold racial traits, including its kobold age categories.
Doesn't change the fact that by RAW it doesn't specify which kind of "Age Categories" is required here. Again, nothing besides DWKs and TDs have Age Categories. I can see a point for RAI, but RAW it is as it stands: "Age Categories" is the requirement here.

Every true dragon advances 3 RHD per age category. Since you are making wild inferences based on shaky foundations, you should at least be consistent. Look up true dragons on the SRD. Each age category nets +3 RHD. If dragonwrought kobold is a true dragon, you need to explain why it is the exception.
Extrapolated info doesn't make a rule. Draconomicon tells you how it as Primary Source for (true) dragons defines the two categories.
Again, I can see a point for RAI, but RAW doesn't care for it. By RAW, the DM is enforced to construct an Advancement table for the DWK and he is free to follow that pattern or not.

___________
___________
PS: To make it clear. I'm not telling you to play it RAW at your table. Don't get me wrong. I just want to point out the difference between RAW and RAI here. Nothing more, nothing less ;)

ShurikVch

2021-07-20, 03:04 AM

Relevant: You retain all your other subtypes and your kobold racial traits. What subtypes? The [Kobold] subtype.
Since when there is the "Kobold" subtype?
Kobold in Races of the Dragon is "Humanoid (dragonblood, reptilian)"
AFAIK, only Warcraft: The Roleplaying Game have the "Kobold" subtype, but Kobolds in Azeroth are notably different from the "Races of the Dragon" Kobolds...

loky1109

2021-07-20, 04:17 AM

By RAW, the DM is enforced to construct an Advancement table for the DWK and he is free to follow that pattern or not.

By RAW, the DM can throw Draconomicon in your head.

redking

2021-07-20, 05:17 AM

The feat changes your type to "Dragon" and as such a DWK has to be either a lesser or a true dragon. Draconomicon claims supremacy over the topic and how the two kinds of dragons are defined.

Actually, Races of the Dragon, where dragonwrought kobold appears, updates the 'all true dragons' list from Draconomicon and does not list dragonwrought kobold. Starting on page 69, Races of the Dragon lists every true dragon in D&D (but not dragonwrought kobold). This is the same publication.

https://i.ibb.co/N6XkQN1/koboldage3.png (https://imgbb.com/)

Page 103 of Races of the Dragon handily lists all true dragons in a table. Dragonwrought kobolds are conflated in the heading with creatures with draconic heritage. Not true dragons.

https://i.ibb.co/3NhZ8gF/koboldage4.png (https://ibb.co/7WymTsp)

Doesn't change the fact that by RAW it doesn't specify which kind of "Age Categories" is required here. Again, nothing besides DWKs and TDs have Age Categories. I can see a point for RAI, but RAW it is as it stands: "Age Categories" is the requirement here.

Draconomicon makes it clear from the outset that it the publication concerns itself with true dragons. The age categories are dragon age categories, not other categories. Dragonwrought kobolds keep their kobold racial traits, including the kobold age categories. RAW doesn't mean ignoring clearly stated context.

Extrapolated info doesn't make a rule.

Attempting to extrapolate information based on 'age categories' is the only way that you can claim that dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons. I am just trying to hold to you consistency.

PS: To make it clear. I'm not telling you to play it RAW at your table. Don't get me wrong. I just want to point out the difference between RAW and RAI here. Nothing more, nothing less ;)

The RAW and RAI are in accord.

Nowhere in Races of the Dragon is it stated that dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons. Even a list in the same publication leaves them out.

hamishspence

2021-07-20, 06:04 AM

The SRD has nothing in it that states that a true dragon must advance exactly 3 Hit Dice per age category.

And neither of the epic dragons do.

The Prismatic dragon typically advances at 4 RHD per age category, not 3, as does the Force Dragon.

Khatoblepas

2021-07-20, 06:20 AM

Just to throw this whole thing into utter chaos, Dragon Magic, the last first party published book that mentions the nature of True Dragons, states:

To make a dragonpact, a sorcerer of 4th level or higher… must undertake a mystical ceremony in which he establishes mental contact with a true dragon (that is, a dragon with twelve age categories, such as a red dragon).

There you go, a kobold with the dragon type has twelve age categories, and therefore is a True Dragon.

Strangely, this also means they can enter Dragonpacts with sorcerers, and get bonus spell slots to qualify for stuff early. Nowhere in the Dragonpacts does it state that the dragon need to be of a certain power level, only that it needs to sacrifice hit points in order to gain it and give the sorcerer spell like abilities. AND you get free loot out of it.

I'm not sure what you can DO with it, but it's there.

hamishspence

2021-07-20, 06:31 AM

Just to throw this whole thing into utter chaos, Dragon Magic, the last first party published book that mentions the nature of True Dragons, states:

There you go, a kobold with the dragon type has twelve age categories, and therefore is a True Dragon.

Interestingly, that rules out the half-dragon Phaerimm, which has a lot less than 12 age categories.

It does though raise some questions about the Oriental dragons which have much less than the full 12 categories (since the first stage of their life is as a different kind of dragon for all of them, before metamorphosing into their adult forms).

Is it impossible to do a Dragon Pact with any kind of Lung Dragon?

Or do we just use "True dragons are those creatures that become more powerful as they grow older" plus "creatures of the dragon type that do not advance through age categories are referred to as lesser dragons" to define them?

(so any creature that "advances through age categories" and has the dragon type and "becomes more powerful as it grows older", regardless of how many age categories or what those age categories are called, or how tiny the power increase is, is a true dragon).

redking

2021-07-20, 08:56 AM

(so any creature that "advances through age categories" and has the dragon type and "becomes more powerful as it grows older", regardless of how many age categories or what those age categories are called, or how tiny the power increase is, is a true dragon).

Actually, dragonwrought kobolds do not advance through age categories. There is no power increase. Have a look.

https://i.ibb.co/ngNXDv8/koboldage5.png (https://imgbb.com/)

Where does the dragonwrought kobold advance through those age categories? It even as it progresses through its lifecycle, it gains nothing. All true dragons advance at each age category via advancing HD, getting more abilities, size, and so on. It is spelled out in Draconomicon. Look at the dragonwrought kobold. It gets nothing for advancing through age categories. Only the aging affects matter, and there are only three of them.

Gruftzwerg

2021-07-20, 10:20 AM

Actually, Races of the Dragon, where dragonwrought kobold appears, updates the 'all true dragons' list from Draconomicon and does not list dragonwrought kobold. Starting on page 69, Races of the Dragon lists every true dragon in D&D (but not dragonwrought kobold). This is the same publication.
....
...

Draconomicon makes it clear from the outset that it the publication concerns itself with true dragons. The age categories are dragon age categories, not other categories. Dragonwrought kobolds keep their kobold racial traits, including the kobold age categories. RAW doesn't mean ignoring clearly stated context.

Attempting to extrapolate information based on 'age categories' is the only way that you can claim that dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons. I am just trying to hold to you consistency.

The RAW and RAI are in accord.

Nowhere in Races of the Dragon is it stated that dragonwrought kobolds are true dragons. Even a list in the same publication leaves them out.
I never claimed that DWK would be their own TD variety and never did the feat do that. They are related to a TD kind and their type gets changed to dragon. Which then enforces you to designate em into one of the two dragon categories. It is irrelevant if they are their own TD variety or not to solve the question if they are TD or not.

Nothing gives you the permission to further narrow the requirements presented when you go by RAW. Not even context. That would be RAI. RAW, you take the text as it is, with the keywords as they are presented and don't read other keywords into them. Cause all those things would be covered by RAI and not by RAW. There is a hard line between those two.

And no, I didn't extrapolated any info for my argumentation. I took the text as presented without any alterations due to context. Because I wanted to make a RAW based argument.

As said, if we talk about RAI, I am totally joining your point of view, but RAW is its own discipline.

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Actually, dragonwrought kobolds do not advance through age categories. There is no power increase. Have a look.

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..

Where does the dragonwrought kobold advance through those age categories? It even as it progresses through its lifecycle, it gains nothing. All true dragons advance at each age category via advancing HD, getting more abilities, size, and so on. It is spelled out in Draconomicon. Look at the dragonwrought kobold. It gets nothing for advancing through age categories. Only the aging affects matter, and there are only three of them.

First note that it is the regular word "advance" and not "Advancement". And basically every Kobold, even non DWK, "advance" through their "Age Categories". The difference between a regular Kobold and the DWK is, that the DWK is a dragon (thus needs to be either a TD or a lesser dragon) and has pure mental stat gains (without penalties) as Aging Effect. This qualifies him as increasing in power, since it is an undefined term and as such any pure power increase counts. Finally the requirement for the power doesn't need to come from the Age Categories, the requirement is just bound to getting older (which qualifies Aging Effects). Finally, if you are looking for "Advancement", see all my other replies in this thread, regarding Draconomicon page 144 "Other True Dragons". The DM is supposed to create an Advancement table for the DWK (as he sees it fit).

JoeNapalm

2021-07-20, 10:58 AM

loky1109

2021-07-20, 11:14 AM

And basically every Kobold, even non DWK, "advance" through their "Age Categories".

This isn't true. Wyrmling to old and Very old to Ancient they don't. Old to Very old and Wyrm to Greate wyrm seems to yes, but Old aging effect comes in the middle Ancient. This means there are no direct link between Age Categories and stat improvements.

Darg

2021-07-20, 11:49 AM

The rules are permissive. The books state which dragon subtypes are true dragons. The books do not state that DWK is a true dragon. Therefore they cannot be a true dragon regardless of the lack of an adjective for "age categories."

Improving Monsters

Each of the monster entries describes a typical creature of its kind. However, there are several methods by which extraordinary or unique monsters can be created using a typical creature as the foundation: by adding character classes, increasing a monster’s Hit Dice, or by adding a template to a monster. These methods are not mutually exclusive—it’s possible for a monster with a template to be improved by both increasing its Hit Dice and adding character class levels.

Class Levels

Intelligent creatures that are reasonably humanoid in shape most commonly advance by adding class levels. Creatures that fall into this category have an entry of "By character class" in their Advancement line. When a monster adds a class level, that level usually represents an increase in experience and learned skills and capabilities.

Increased Hit Dice

Intelligent creatures that are not humanoid in shape, and nonintelligent monsters, can advance by increasing their Hit Dice. Creatures with increased Hit Dice are usually superior specimens of their race, bigger and more powerful than their run-of-the-mill fellows.

Templates

Both intelligent and nonintelligent creatures with an unusual heritage or an inflicted change in their essential nature may be modified with a template. Templates usually result in tougher monsters with capabilities that differ from those of their common kin.

Each of these three methods for improving monsters is discussed in more detail below.

Advancing through age categories is referencing the fact that true dragons advance through age categories.

All true dragons gain more abilities and greater power as they
age. (Other creatures that have the dragon type do not.)

Type: Dragon (Water)
Environment: Warm marshes
Organization: Wyrmling, very young, young, juvenile, and young adult: solitary or clutch (2-5); adult, mature adult, old, very old, ancient, wyrm, or great wyrm: solitary, pair, or family (1-2 and 2-5 offspring)
Challenge Rating: Wyrmling 3; very young 4; young 5; juvenile 7; young adult 9; adult 11; mature adult 14; old 16; very old 18; ancient 19; wyrm 20; great wyrm 22
Treasure: Triple standard
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: Wyrmling 5-6 HD; very young 8-9 HD; young 11-12 HD; juvenile 14-15 HD; young adult 17-18 HD; adult 20-21 HD; mature adult 23-24 HD; old 26-27 HD; very old 29-30 HD; ancient 32-33 HD; wyrm 35-36 HD; great wyrm 38+ HD
Level Adjustment: Wyrmling +3; very young +3; young +3; juvenile +4; others —

This is the same for every one of the true dragons except for DWK.

Remuko

2021-07-21, 12:36 AM

The rules are permissive. The books state which dragon subtypes are true dragons. The books do not state that DWK is a true dragon. Therefore they cannot be a true dragon regardless of the lack of an adjective for "age categories."

the rules also state there are only two categories of dragon; lesser, and true. and iirc DWKs are explicitly not lesser dragons which only leaves one other option.

Gruftzwerg

2021-07-21, 01:01 AM

DWK are great without trying to leverage Draconomicon and True Dragon status.

Attempting to treat them as if they were straight up tiny Smaug with True Dragon only just makes them harder to convince any sane DM to allow them at the table.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist
I agree that most tables never attempt to play at such optimization lvls, so I would never advice experienced players to play at such a lvl. But that doesn't mean that nobody does. In fact, from time to time, we have a few posters which seem to play more frequently at higher optimization lvls.

This isn't true. Wyrmling to old and Very old to Ancient they don't. Old to Very old and Wyrm to Greate wyrm seems to yes, but Old aging effect comes in the middle Ancient. This means there are no direct link between Age Categories and stat improvements.
The requirement is "become more powerful as they grow older" and isn't linked/bound to the Age Categories. The pure mental gains from Aging Effects that DWK get qualify for that without any issues.

The rules are permissive. The books state which dragon subtypes are true dragons. The books do not state that DWK is a true dragon. Therefore they cannot be a true dragon regardless of the lack of an adjective for "age categories."

Advancing through age categories is referencing the fact that true dragons advance through age categories.

This is the same for every one of the true dragons except for DWK.

DWK ain't a variety by themselves and are a "specific exception" to become a dragon. Further the DWK feat links you (by your ancestors) to a TD type. It would be wrong to mention DWK in any TD list since they aren't their own variety. A DWK can't take another DWK as his dragon type for this DWK feat (common sense reasoning behind this imho that if 2 DWK breed together they don't get automatically a DWK offspring.) Putting an exception into a general list is logically totally wrong. As such, only the requirements on Draconomicon page 4 are relevant to decide if a DWK is a TD or a lesser one.

And as said multiple times on this thread:
Advancement can't be a requirement for TD, if all TD who don't have it, get it for free from the DM. See Draconomicon P144 "Other True Dragons". This is a 100% proof. You can't require it and then say those who don't have it get it from the DM. The text implies that there are TD who don't have Advancement mentioned ANYWHERE and that the DM is enforced to construct a table for THOSE DRAGONS.

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Really, I have repeated this undeniable argument several times in this thread now and it is getting a lil annoying. You can't require something and than give it for free for all TD who don't have it. That is just utter BS (sorry, but I'm repeating the same thing over and over again and the argument gets totally ignored. "Stop mixing advance and Advancement" we have 100% proof that this is not the chase here (for draconomicon page 4)

redking

2021-07-21, 01:07 AM

the rules also state there are only two categories of dragon; lesser, and true. and iirc DWKs are explicitly not lesser dragons which only leaves one other option.

Dragonwrought kobold is never called a true dragon in Races of the Dragon. Draconomicon goes into length describing what a true dragon is, and these kobolds accord with none of the descriptions.

{Scrubbed}

Draconomicon describes the traits of true dragons repeatedly. Dragonwrought kobold doesn't meet any of them. "You have darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision". - Dragonwrought kobold feat.

Keen senses description from page 136 of Draconomicon.

{Scrubbed}

Keen Senses (Ex)
A dragon sees four times as well as a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light. It also has darkvision out to 120 feet.

'Dragon' in Draconomicon is shorthand for 'true dragon', as the book tells you in the introduction.

"Lesser dragons can’t see in the dark better than a dwarf or a half-orc, nor in low light better than an elf or a half-elf, but simply having both forms of vision makes them the best at spotting hidden foes and the like". Dragonwrought kobolds "have darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision", no better than dwarf, half-orc, elf or half-elf. True dragons have low light vision and "darkvision out to 120 feet". True dragons can see in the dark better than a dwarf or a half-orc, nor in low light better than an elf or a half-elf. Dragonwrought kobold cannot.

Not a true dragon.

Gruftzwerg

2021-07-21, 01:30 AM

Please. Just stop.

...

Draconomicon describes the traits of true dragons repeatedly. Dragonwrought kobold doesn't meet any of them. "You have darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision". - Dragonwrought kobold feat.

Keen senses description from page 136 of Draconomicon.

...

'Dragon' in Draconomicon is shorthand for 'true dragon', as it the book tells you in the introduction.

"Lesser dragons can’t see in the dark better than a dwarf or a half-orc, nor in low light better than an elf or a half-elf, but simply having both forms of vision makes them the best at spotting hidden foes and the like". Dragonwrought kobolds "have darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision". True dragons have low light vision and "darkvision out to 120 feet". True dragons can see in the dark better than a dwarf or a half-orc, nor in low light better than an elf or a half-elf. Dragonwrought kobold cannot.

Not a true dragon.

Specific Trumps General. The DWK feat may create specific exceptions for its niche. As such, a general rule (e.g. Keen Senses) that gets trumped by a specific rule (DWK feat) can't be relevant to determine if DWK are TD or not. The terms TD and lesser get defined on draconomicon page 4.

And while many TD share similar traits, they still aren't requirements to determine if a dragon is TD or not. Consistency doesn't make new rules. At least not when we talk about RAW (rules as written). If you want to talks about designer intentions (RAI), that may be a totally valid argument. (PS: I'm not really sure if you want to make claims for RAW or RAI here, but I tried to address both options as you see).

loky1109

2021-07-21, 01:33 AM

The requirement is "become more powerful as they grow older" and isn't linked/bound to the Age Categories. The pure mental gains from Aging Effects that DWK get qualify for that without any issues.

So half-dragon monks-17 and druids-15 are counts, too.

Advancement can't be a requirement for TD
This isn't requirement, this is indication.

The text implies that there are TD who don't have Advancement mentioned ANYWHERE and that the DM is enforced to construct a table for THOSE DRAGONS.
We need examples. If we talk about EAW.

and iirc DWKs are explicitly not lesser dragons.

Why aren't?

redking

2021-07-21, 01:56 AM

Specific Trumps General. The DWK feat may create specific exceptions for its niche. As such, a general rule (e.g. Keen Senses) that gets trumped by a specific rule (DWK feat) can't be relevant to determine if DWK are TD or not. The terms TD and lesser get defined on draconomicon page 4.

I reproduced the dragonwrought feat upthread. Dragonwrought kobolds are not called 'true dragons'. They get the dragon type, then what they get from that type is explicitly described in the feat. There is no specific rule calling out dragonwrought kobolds as true dragons.

Darg

2021-07-21, 08:29 AM

the rules also state there are only two categories of dragon; lesser, and true. and iirc DWKs are explicitly not lesser dragons which only leaves one other option.

Except they aren't a dragon. They are a kobold. They have the dragon type, but they are still a kobold. Nothing says that DWKs are not lesser dragons. Kobold age categories are fluff and have no mechanical relevance. Kobold characters do not advance through age categories.

DWK ain't a variety by themselves and are a "specific exception" to become a dragon. Further the DWK feat links you (by your ancestors) to a TD type. It would be wrong to mention DWK in any TD list since they aren't their own variety. A DWK can't take another DWK as his dragon type for this DWK feat (common sense reasoning behind this imho that if 2 DWK breed together they don't get automatically a DWK offspring.) Putting an exception into a general list is logically totally wrong. As such, only the requirements on Draconomicon page 4 are relevant to decide if a DWK is a TD or a lesser one.

And as said multiple times on this thread:
Advancement can't be a requirement for TD, if all TD who don't have it, get it for free from the DM. See Draconomicon P144 "Other True Dragons". This is a 100% proof. You can't require it and then say those who don't have it get it from the DM. The text implies that there are TD who don't have Advancement mentioned ANYWHERE and that the DM is enforced to construct a table for THOSE DRAGONS.

_____________________
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Really, I have repeated this undeniable argument several times in this thread now and it is getting a lil annoying. You can't require something and than give it for free for all TD who don't have it. That is just utter BS (sorry, but I'm repeating the same thing over and over again and the argument gets totally ignored. "Stop mixing advance and Advancement" we have 100% proof that this is not the chase here (for draconomicon page 4)

Read my quote again. The rules for monster advancement use the word advance to tell you how they improve. It is perfectly valid. You say you have proof to the contrary, and it might be true for you, but for the rest of us mortals who cannot understand the ways of gods (WotC) it heavily skews it toward the other direction.

Pg 144 of Draconomicon has already been refuted. It says to use the information found on table 3-22 to create a table like 3-21. DWK is not in table 3-22 and therefore has no relevance to pg 144. In fact pg 144 heavily supports DWK not being a true dragon:

Lesser Dragon PCs
Using another creature of the dragon type as a player character is rather less complicated than using a true dragon. Such a creature has a set level adjustment and no built-in progression due to age, so after the character begins play there is no reason to advance the character as a monster again.

Not only does the draconomicon mention that lesser dragons do not advance through age categories, it also says they have no built-in progression due to age.

Unless a book explicitly tells us a DWK is a TD, it cannot be a true dragon as possession of age categories isn't enough. They must have character advancement/progression through these age categories which a DWK does not.