Cr of npc with class levels?

[LaRayna]

So I've been doing some searching and I feel that pathfinders judgment of the cr of an npc with class levels and the like are wrong and I'm curious what you guys think. So, an epic encounter raises the cr by 3, and four creatures of the same type, according to the book, raises cr by 4 as a short cut. So by this formula, a cr 20 encounter, minus 3 for the epic, minus another 4 to isolate one creature, would put a single npc with twenty pc levels, at cr 13. Are there any thoughts to this?

[Biggus]

I think you've got this the wrong way round. A single NPC with 20 PC class levels is CR 20, it represents a "challenging" encounter for four level 20 PCs. If the PCs were level 17, it would represent an "epic" encounter as it'd be APL (average party level) +3.

Four level 16 NPCs would be a challenging encounter for a party of four level 20 PCs (four creatures=CR+4, 16+4=20). Four level 19 NPCs would be an epic encounter for four level 20 PCs (19+4=23, so APL+3).

Does that make sense to you?

[Crake]

I think you've got this the wrong way round. A single NPC with 20 PC class levels is CR 20

In pathfinder, an NPC's CR is PC class levels -1, due to their typically reduced ability scores and lower wealth by level making them weaker than the average PC character, so a level 20 NPC with PC class levels would be CR 19

[Biggus]

In pathfinder, an NPC's CR is PC class levels -1, due to their typically reduced ability scores and lower wealth by level making them weaker than the average PC character, so a level 20 NPC with PC class levels would be CR 19

Ah OK, thank you. Reduce all the NPC CRs in my post by 1 in that case.

[LaRayna]

I never felt that was correct. Four level 20 pcs should be able to roughly handle four level 20 npcs as an epic encounter.

[Silly Name]

I think that, realistically, you need to evaluate NPCs with class level on a case-by-case basis. Build and equipment will seriously impact the actual difficulty of the encounter, and in general a single enemy, even if it has "big numbers", does not have CR=HD. The Tarrasque has 48 HD but is CR 20, for example.

[LaRayna]

And that's one of those things I don't quite have a grasp on. With such a drastic difference in hit dice, how could four level twenty pcs be about the same cr even with builds and the like.

[mattie_p]

If a creature is CR20, a single ECL 20 PC, going all out (ie using scarce resources like per day abilities and consumables) should win 50% of the time. In other words a coin toss.

This might sound odd but makes sense. If you take any creature, clone it and all of it's equipment, and then have the two indistinguishable creatures fight, it's even odds as to which wins.

[Silly Name]

And that's one of those things I don't quite have a grasp on. With such a drastic difference in hit dice, how could four level twenty pcs be about the same cr even with builds and the like.

Because CR is, theoretically, calculated around the expectation of a four-man party. A CR 15 creature isn't going to fight with a single level 15 PC - it's fighting four of them. This translates in a net advantage for the PCs, because they get four turns per round, they can synergise and strategise to bring down the enemy, pile up or spread up as necessary...

Meanwhile our lone creature has just one turn each round, and needs to contend with four different foes, all concentrating their efforts in bringing it down. You can see where it's going; to make a real life parallel, the world's wrestling champion is still going to be at a huge disadvantage if they have to fight the next four best wrestlers all at once.

So, this is why usually monsters have more HD than CR: if those two values were equal, they'd get defeated far too quickly. In order for the encounter to be "fair", the monster has to have bigger numbers so that it has greater staying power and greater chance of harming the PCs for real, making the encounter into an actual fight and not just a speed bump.

[JoeNapalm]

I think that, realistically, you need to evaluate NPCs with class level on a case-by-case basis. Build and equipment will seriously impact the actual difficulty of the encounter, and in general a single enemy, even if it has "big numbers", does not have CR=HD. The Tarrasque has 48 HD but is CR 20, for example.

This...

...are you talking full primary caster with time to prepare?

Or a Samurai with bog standard kit and mediocre stats?


CR was always a way to take some bizarre alien monstrosity and quickly make a rough estimate as to whether it would be an easy fight vs a TPK...when you start looking at PC classes, it's kind of a blunt instrument.



-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[AnimeTheCat]

If a creature is CR20, a single ECL 20 PC, going all out (ie using scarce resources like per day abilities and consumables) should win 50% of the time. In other words a coin toss.

This might sound odd but makes sense. If you take any creature, clone it and all of it's equipment, and then have the two indistinguishable creatures fight, it's even odds as to which wins.

I... don't think that's accurate. You should expect a CR 20 creature to use up between 15% and 30% of a party's daily resources. Not win 50% of the time. By the end of the fourth equal CR challenge, your party should be relying primarily on consumables and at-will abilities, or be very close.

[Zombimode]

I... don't think that's accurate. You should expect a CR 20 creature to use up between 15% and 30% of a party's daily resources. Not win 50% of the time. By the end of the fourth equal CR challenge, your party should be relying primarily on consumables and at-will abilities, or be very close.

They were talking about a single level 20 PC vs. a CR 20 threat, though.

Still, making single instance predictions like this is not really what CR is about - match-ups are a thing.
CR is more a tool for the DM to construct encounters.

[mattie_p]

They were talking about a single level 20 PC vs. a CR 20 threat, though.

Still, making single instance predictions like this is not really what CR is about - match-ups are a thing.
CR is more a tool for the DM to construct encounters.

I agree with your interpretation, this was indeed what I was aiming for. But sometimes a DM can get lost trying to determine the CR for something against the whole party. A different way to go about it is a 1:1 comparison. Of course, different characters have different tools available which makes the exercise... challenging.

[KillianHawkeye]

The thing you always have to remember about CR is that it's at best a rough guideline. It doesn't take into account if the PCs are all wizards/clerics/druids or they're fighters/monks/barbarians. It doesn't really account for if the creatures have any special equipment, or if they're in their exact perfect environment or if they're the colloquial fish out of water.

Optimized PCs can frequently fight above their CR weight bracket, which is why many DMs are forced to create custom monsters with added gear or class levels.



Also, I'm pretty sure that CR = Level -1 for NPCs is specifically for characters with NPC classes (commoner, warrior, etc.) and that NPCs with PC classes have CR = Level. This is at least true for D&D 3e/3.5, and I bet Pathfinder is the same.

[Crake]

Also, I'm pretty sure that CR = Level -1 for NPCs is specifically for characters with NPC classes (commoner, warrior, etc.) and that NPCs with PC classes have CR = Level. This is at least true for D&D 3e/3.5, and I bet Pathfinder is the same.

CR -1 is for NPC classes in 3.5, in pathfinder NPC are -2, and PC are -1, because NPCs, even with PC class levels have lower wealth by level and generally lower ability scores than PCs of the same level.