3 vs 1 fair fight?

[Frosty]

So some of my friends and I were talking about building some level 20 characters for dueling, and our other friend will DM. When my friend mentioned that he'll be using a Planar Shepherd, the DM laughed and (jokingly, I think) says that I can either use one normal character, or build 3 characters to go against the Planar Shepherd, but the 3 characters had to be CW Samurai, Monk, and Ninja.

Is a 3 on 1 ever a fair fight? Is Planar Shepherd worth 3 characters? If I want to try this, how would I build the 3 characters?

[Fenix_of_Doom]

So some of my friends and I were talking about building some level 20 characters for dueling, and our other friend will DM. When my friend mentioned that he'll be using a Planar Shepherd, the DM laughed and (jokingly, I think) says that I can either use one normal character, or build 3 characters to go against the Planar Shepherd, but the 3 characters had to be CW Samurai, Monk, and Ninja.

Is a 3 on 1 ever a fair fight? Is Planar Shepherd worth 3 characters? If I want to try this, how would I build the 3 characters?

As far as I know planar shepherd is the most powerful class created so far.
It has the ability to get 10X the number of turns you get, in other words, you'll die horribly no matter what you do. your best bet would to homebrew another class to specifically disrupt the planar shepherd :smalltongue: .

[lord_khaine]

i think he is overestimatic the power of the planar shepard there, especaly if you all have WBL, where the ninja then should be able to counter his magic with UMD and a stack of scrolls, while the samurai and the monk beat him down.

edit: oh yes there is something about some time abuse, that might change the outcome.

[tyckspoon]

Is a 3 on 1 ever a fair fight? Is Planar Shepherd worth 3 characters? If I want to try this, how would I build the 3 characters?

Generally not, but since 2 of the 3 combatants here are the CW Samurai and a Monk, and the other side is a Druid (ignoring the Planar Shepherd for the moment, the fact that he's a Druid means he already has at least one other creature on his side and can get more very easily.), it's probably fair. If not still weighted in favor of the Druid.

Hmm.. actually, the Monk could be useful, if he's really lucky.
Feats: Sun School (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Sun_School,CW)
Pain Touch (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Pain_Touch,CW)
Freezing the Lifeblood (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Freezing_The_Lifeblood,CW)
Other available feat choices should go to anything that can increase your Stun save DCs or decently enhance your chance of hitting (Getting Wis to your attack roll is good. Weapon Focus is not.)

Step 1: Pray that the Druid hasn't already transformed into something that is immune to stunning.
Step 2: Abundant Step next to the Druid. Use the Sun School attack to throw a Stunning Fist. Hope the dice favor you so that it hits and works.
Step 3: If you were lucky, the Druid is now disabled for two rounds (1 stun, 1 nauseated from Pain Touch.) His Companion is probably now eating your head. If it's not, either try to Stun the Druid again (triggering Sun School effect: two consecutive rounds of stunning causes confusion) or use Freezing the Lifeblood.
Step 4: If everything went well up to now, you have 2-5 rounds to act before the Druid can reliably do anything. The Monk should keep stunning the Druid (Rapid Stunning would be helpful here, for more attempts) to make it more certain. The Ninja uses Sudden Strike damage to score a kill. The Samurai stands around and looks menacing.

[Frosty]

The Samurai stands around and looks menacing.

And...what else? That can't be ALL he does...can it?

[Indon]

The Samurai stands around and looks menacing.

Wouldn't the Samurai's fear-related abilities work against the Lower-than-20-HD animal companion?

[....]

Step 1: Win initiative.
Step 2: Get Quivering Palm to stick.
Step 3: ?????
Step 4: Profit!

[Dhavaer]

Wouldn't the Samurai's fear-related abilities work against the Lower-than-20-HD animal companion?

While I wouldn't lower myself to actually read the class description, perhaps it's limited to creatures with 3+ Int?

[daggaz]

You had better win initiative, and then you had better one shot him, tho that isnt likely. If he gets to act, you are doomed. Yeah, he will do his planar bubble thing and either A) get up to ten actions or more, all of which he can use to make himself untouchable and set you up for death that round or the next or B) put you guys into some miserable death trap. Probably A.

[tyckspoon]

I don't think the Planar Shepherd can exclude people; if you successfully spring an ambush and Dim-Door next to him, you get the benefits (or drawbacks, depending on the plane) of the bubble too. It doesn't work the same way Time Stop does. Although if he's not stunned, he can move-action away from you and call up his bubble to exclude you anyway- it's only a 20 ft radius, IIRC.

The Samurai isn't fully useless, but he's of no special use either. You could get a level 20 Warrior and he'd be of as much use. The Monk is using Hide, Move Silently, and Abundant Step to launch an ambush from 800 feet away and then spam save-or-suck with Stunning Fist. The Ninja is burning ki points to do what he needs to. The Samurai is hiking to the battle site, and once he gets there all he can contribute is a pair of swords. It's been demonstrated time and time over that the Samurai's contribution is far and away the least useful thing at level 20. He can engage the Animal Companion and try to keep any summoned critters busy, I guess.

[Indon]

While I wouldn't lower myself to actually read the class description, perhaps it's limited to creatures with 3+ Int?

The abilities are based on the Intimdiate skill usage in the PHB, from what I recall. It should work on animals.

[Theli]

I wonder about the purported advantage of the planar shepherd's time dilation.

Ok, so he takes an action to cast the damn thing...well now his enemies have a chance to move before he can get to act again.

Sure, supposedly while they are moving, rounds could be going on inside... But DnD is only a turn-based system out of necessity. And there aren't actually any rules as to what happens when two people are moving through time at different speeds. (Except for maybe haste.)

And besides, the entire system is supposed to be an abstraction of action that is assumed to happen concurrently. While you're releasing a crossbow bolt, somebody else is swinging their sword. So this would suggest that a whole turn happens while the bubble is going up...and most special abilities only really have an effect at the end of the action.

So the way I see it, the druid gets his planar bubble off and at the same time, but on a different initiative order, all his enemies are running into it. Making any time dilation a moot point. There's no reason to interpret it in any other way, except for the "OMG, this is so broke. Awesome!" Factor.

Of course, then those enemies have to deal with any negative effects of the plane. Or maybe the druid could just pick a different, non-time dilated and more powerful plane. Or the druid just slows them down so they can't reach him before the turn after he gets the bubble up. And besides all this, the other characters are reportedly sub-par even without comparing them to the, again reportedly, number one core class.

You know...I bet planar bubble was only meant to create an effect such as described by the Orrerry of the Planes for each plane bound to it. But that became butchered somewhere along the line. Maybe somebody wanted to save a little space to keep from reprinting it. Maybe somebody just plain misunderstood. This would make a lot more sense... Although you still have the whole access to ridiculous monsters thing that the PrC gives ya. (But then, you don't really need this PrC in order to become other kinds of ridiculous monsters.)

[Hyfigh]

Is your question whether the Planar Shepard is worth any 3 level 20 builds or are you asking if the Planar Shepard is worth steight level 20 builds of CW Samurai, Monk, and Ninja?

If yes to the first part of my question; not entirely. The PS is awesome, but I can think of many many different builds that could compete and having three of those builds doesn't let the PS stand a remote chance.

If it's a yes to the second part of the question... That's another story. Unless the PS is built completely horribly I don't see those 3 classes even together matching the PS in a battle-royal.

[Frosty]

And how exactly do you build a PS badly? Isn't it kind of hard to mess up a Druid? I mean, whaddya do, NOT take Natural spell?

[Zeiss]

What book is Planar Shepard in? I can't find it.

[Illiterate Scribe]

What book is Planar Shepard in? I can't find it.

Magic of Eberron, I think.

[Hyfigh]

And how exactly do you build a PS badly? Isn't it kind of hard to mess up a Druid? I mean, whaddya do, NOT take Natural spell?

That was kind of my point :smallwink: You could take completely useless feats and still probably amount to more than all three of those classes at the same time. Messing up a druid, much less a PS, requires retardation...

[Illiterate Scribe]

Also, his ability isn't as gamebreaking as you give it credit for. It only does the time effect if you choose the right plane to base it on (and then you don't get all the other nasty stuff - more later), because all it does is mirror planar traits, and he has to concentrate on that.

He might well not be choosing that plane, as it's only one of the power three - the others being the elemental plane of fire, and any plane you find solars. The former gives you, through your wildshape, effectively giving 18 XP-free wishes per day via efreet, although he'll have to shift back and forth to get them. Solar - well, it has Cleric 20 casting (stock up on miracle in the 9th level slots), plus a whole bunch of other stuff. That would be the nastiest form he could choose, especially against your mooks - he'll just fly off and laugh, spamming summon monster VII at you.

Remember that he has to choose a plane to shepherd - the slow-time one is only one, and has sub-optimal wild-shape choices.

For once, I may have to agree with lordKhaine :smallwink: - your best bet is to UMD up an AMF, and then smack him down with your (thankfully not completely magic dependent) Monk and Samurai.

One more thing - one misconception that a vast number of people have is that Planar Bubble is an effect unique to the Shepherd. It isn't. It's a 7th level wizard/cleric spell :smallbiggrin:. You can use the same trick back at him.

To sum up - time tricks aren't your main enemy, as you can shut those down not too badly. His wildshape will be - don't let him wildshape into a solar, whatever you do.

[Jayabalard]

Messing up a druid, much less a PS, requires retardation...quite the opposite, it would take someone very intelligent to be able to mess it up that badly.

[tyckspoon]

And how exactly do you build a PS badly? Isn't it kind of hard to mess up a Druid? I mean, whaddya do, NOT take Natural spell?

Well.. you could home-brew a plane that is exactly like the Prime Material, except it contains no form of creature whatsoever. Pick that for your connected plane. You now get no use from Planar Bubble and nothing to turn into to use your improved Wildshape feature on. Congratulations. You have now made the Planar Shepherd.. exactly as powerful as a standard Druid.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Planar bubble (material plane) would have some use - since the Prime is mildly neutral-aligned, and all that, you could use it to suppress harmful planar traits.

[Zeiss]

Magic of Eberron, I think.

Don't see it there? Am I just an idiot? =X

[Illiterate Scribe]

Don't see it there? Am I just an idiot? =X

No, that's me. Faiths of Eberron.:smallredface:

[OneWinged4ngel]

A planar shepherd is worth MORE than 3 characters. At the very least, they can get ten times the actions you can. At the most, they're Pun Pun.

[Frosty]

quite the opposite, it would take someone very intelligent to be able to mess it up that badly.

Does it still count as a "mess-up" if you're doing it intentionally?

[Setra]

A planar shepherd is worth MORE than 3 characters. At the very least, they can get ten times the actions you can. At the most, they're Pun Pun.
Wizard, Wizard, Wizard > Planar Shepherd.. well in my opinion.

Sadly that's not an option :smalltongue:

[Kurald Galain]

Do Druids have a feasible way of getting access to Celerity, or Moment of Prescience? I think they could use some feat to gain access to the luck domain... that effectively means druid will win init, and you're screwed.

[Frosty]

Isn't Celerity like one of the most brokenated spells ever? I've never seen a DM allow that.

[....]

And how exactly do you build a PS badly? Isn't it kind of hard to mess up a Druid? I mean, whaddya do, NOT take Natural spell?


All skill ranks into Move Silently and Profession: Dirt Farmer.

All atribute ups into dex.

Wear that dwarven armor that reduces dex bonus to zero and is made of METAL.

And, uh, gouge out your eyes?

EDIT: Extra feats like two-weapon fighting, imp two weapon fighting, ect... and Skill Focus: Profession (Dirt Farmer)

[tyckspoon]

What the heck are you doing recommending possibly-useful things like TWF? Toughness! Every feat!

[shadowdemon_lord]

No no, not toughness to good. Take the suite of feats that gives you +2 in two skills. Now have no ranks in any of those skills. Instead take ranks in various profession and craft skills that never ccome up. Such as basketweaving, farmer, referee, etc.

[Theli]

One more thing - one misconception that a vast number of people have is that Planar Bubble is an effect unique to the Shepherd. It isn't. It's a 7th level wizard/cleric spell :smallbiggrin:. You can use the same trick back at him.

Out of curiosity, what is the name of this spell? What book is it in?

[Setra]

All skill ranks into Move Silently and Profession: Dirt Farmer.

All atribute ups into dex.

Wear that dwarven armor that reduces dex bonus to zero and is made of METAL.

And, uh, gouge out your eyes?

EDIT: Extra feats like two-weapon fighting, imp two weapon fighting, ect... and Skill Focus: Profession (Dirt Farmer)But he can still Wildshape into something useful.

[Lochar]

Out of curiosity, what is the name of this spell? What book is it in?

It's called Planar Bubble, and it's in the SpC. Unfortunately, what it does is gives the bubble effect of the creature's home plane. So you'd have to be from a different time plane, or the elemental plane of fire, or whatever, to get the effect of that plane.

[lord_khaine]

of course, if you just make sure the fight doesnt take place in eberon then he cant use the time trick, and in that case weight of numbers should drag him down.

besides that people should try and avoid to underestimate the CW samurai to much, he still have the option of picking a 2handet weapon and going PA/shocktrooper crazy on whatever he gets his hands on.

if you pick him a race with wings like fx ½ celestrial, and make the ninja a halfling that rides on his back, then with a scroll of antimagic field it should be possibel to ground the PS, at wich point the monk grapples while the ninja harvest himself a pair of kidneys.

[Frosty]

if you pick him a race with wings like fx ½ celestrial, and make the ninja a halfling that rides on his back, then with a scroll of antimagic field it should be possibel to ground the PS, at wich point the monk grapples while the ninja harvest himself a pair of kidneys.

This mental picture makes me laugh.

[tyckspoon]

of course, if you just make sure the fight doesnt take place in eberon then he cant use the time trick, and in that case weight of numbers should drag him down.

If you don't give him Eberron, then he can still rapidly equalize the numbers by casting a Summon Nature's Ally; SNA 9 can fetch 2-5 Greater Elementals (or Dire Tigers. Next round, Animal Growth!) Or maybe Shambler, since that's a normal standard-action casting time for 3-6 shambling mounds. Or he could Finger of Death the combatant with the weakest Fort save, probably the Ninja, and make it a nice even 2 on 2. And if he just wants a little space to work in, Antilife Shell. His attackers are now forced to resort to ranged weapons or have good reach.


besides that people should try and avoid to underestimate the CW samurai to much, he still have the option of picking a 2handet weapon and going PA/shocktrooper crazy on whatever he gets his hands on.

Right. He can contribute in exactly the same way an NPC classed Warrior or a standard Fighter might. His actual unique class features do nothing much for him. In fact, a Fighter or Warrior could be more useful in this match; the extra feats they get would let them take the Shocktrooper deathcharge combo as well as stuff like the Mage Slayer line that would actually help in suppressing the Druid.


if you pick him a race with wings like fx ½ celestrial, and make the ninja a halfling that rides on his back, then with a scroll of antimagic field it should be possibel to ground the PS, at wich point the monk grapples while the ninja harvest himself a pair of kidneys.

You're going to drop an Antimagic Field and then *grapple*? You do remember that the Druid is liable to have a Dire Bear, Dire Tiger, or other big grapply monster on his side, right? Without magic, you have little chance of beating those kind of critters. (Or, for entertainment value, the Druid picks a Tyrannousaurus. It eats the ninja.)

[Frosty]

Umm, does Mageslayer work against Divine spellcasters, or only Arcane?

[tyckspoon]

Umm, does Mageslayer work against Divine spellcasters, or only Arcane?

Works on everybody. The feats say 'Spellcasters' and 'spells that grant (list of effect types)'. Most of the examples are arcane spells, but the text itself doesn't make any distinction based on the source of the spell.

[tainsouvra]

Or, for entertainment value, the Druid picks a Tyrannousaurus. It eats the ninja. Stop tempting me to play a Druid :smallannoyed:

[lord_khaine]

You're going to drop an Antimagic Field and then *grapple*? You do remember that the Druid is liable to have a Dire Bear, Dire Tiger, or other big grapply monster on his side, right? Without magic, you have little chance of beating those kind of critters. (Or, for entertainment value, the Druid picks a Tyrannousaurus. It eats the ninja.)

yeah but even in a antimagic field the team will be able to kill the PS long before his animal companion can chew any of them apart, and thats in the situation where 1 of the trio does not engange it outside of the field, where there is a lot of options for taking it down.

and btw, does PS even advance animal companion? if not it wont be a issue in the fight.

[Frosty]

Stop tempting me to play a Druid :smallannoyed:

What's stopping you? *can guess the answer already*

[tyckspoon]

yeah but even in a antimagic field the team will be able to kill the PS long before his animal companion can chew any of them apart, and thats in the situation where 1 of the trio does not engange it outside of the field, where there is a lot of options for taking it down.

and btw, does PS even advance animal companion? if not it wont be a issue in the fight.

Yes, it does. Full Companion progression, full spellcasting. That's part of why the class is so ridiculously good even without time-manipulation cheese.

Hmm.. actually, let's go ahead and take a T-Rex as the animal companion. Your ninja uses UMD to create an antimagic field. The T-Rex bites and grabs him. Next round, it swallows him. The T-rex has a 15 foot space. The Antimagic Field is a 10 foot radius. It's entirely inside the 'rex and has no more effect on the battle (and if I understand the rules for emanations correctly, it can't go through the solid barrier that is the 'rex's body anyway.) The Druid is now free to Wildshape into something the monk has no chance of winning a grapple against, and the T-Rex can grab up the Samurai and nom-nom-nom on him while the ninja gets digested.. and tries to cut his way out with his non-magical weapons and no ability to use his (Su) class features.

[tainsouvra]

What's stopping you? *can guess the answer already* The last time I did, my unattended animal companion scored more kills in a (rare for us) hack-and-slash adventure than more than one party member. The phrase "aww, a bear eats you" is still kind of a joke after that...but the temptation to make it "a t-rex eats you" is so great...

[Frosty]

I was gonna say you are stopped by your sense of decency ;)

[tainsouvra]

I was gonna say you are stopped by your sense of decency ;) Essentially, yes. There is something wrong--both with the classes themselves and with two of the party members--when a single class feature outperforms an entire class :smalleek:

...however, the idea of "A T-Rex eats you!" is so very tempting...

[vrellum]

Yes, it does. Full Companion progression, full spellcasting. That's part of why the class is so ridiculously good even without time-manipulation cheese.

Hmm.. actually, let's go ahead and take a T-Rex as the animal companion. Your ninja uses UMD to create an antimagic field. The T-Rex bites and grabs him. Next round, it swallows him. The T-rex has a 15 foot space. The Antimagic Field is a 10 foot radius. It's entirely inside the 'rex and has no more effect on the battle (and if I understand the rules for emanations correctly, it can't go through the solid barrier that is the 'rex's body anyway.) The Druid is now free to Wildshape into something the monk has no chance of winning a grapple against, and the T-Rex can grab up the Samurai and nom-nom-nom on him while the ninja gets digested.. and tries to cut his way out with his non-magical weapons and no ability to use his (Su) class features.


Actually a dwarven ninja or any race with dark vision could sudden strike the trex down quite quickly.

The Trex has an AC of 13 vs the ninja, the ninja will get 6 attacks at +13+13+8+8+3+3 (plus dex mod--> 'cause you know he took weapon finesse) and each attack that hits will do something like 40 pts of damage.

The trex has about 180 hp, so 5 hits will take him down, that should take about 1 round.

[tainsouvra]

What are the conditions for Sudden Strike?

[olelia]

I think your forgetting how the t-rex gets more powerful as a druid companion...and the fact that you'll probably have to worry about an animal growthed t-rex :smalleek:

[vrellum]

What are the conditions for Sudden Strike?

denied dex to ac.

[vrellum]

I think your forgetting how the t-rex gets more powerful as a druid companion...and the fact that you'll probably have to worry about an animal growthed t-rex :smalleek:

Wouldn't make that much difference. I'm not sure what the level adjustment is for a trex, but I'm sure its pretty large. So even at 20th level an animal companion trex won't be much tougher than a regular trex.

Assuming a worst case scenario where the ninja is in an antimagic field it might take two rounds to cut through the an animal growthed trex animal companion. Under more normal conditions where the ninja can use magic items, one round is probably enough.

Swallowing the ninja is about the worst mistake the trex can make.

[JaxGaret]

Out of curiosity, what is the name of this spell? What book is it in?


It's called Planar Bubble, and it's in the SpC. Unfortunately, what it does is gives the bubble effect of the creature's home plane. So you'd have to be from a different time plane, or the elemental plane of fire, or whatever, to get the effect of that plane.

Actually the Planar Bubble they are speaking of is a class feature of the Planar Shepherd, which is from Faiths of Eberron. It is completely unrelated to any spell named Planar Bubble.


Also, the PS would probably destroy scores of Monks, Ninjas, and Samurai before going down - depending on starting conditions.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Until all the monks, samus, and ninjas spend their money on an effigy master to make a cyber miniature giant space hamster. Then, they win. but then again, anything with a miniature giant space hamster wins.

[GoC]

So some of my friends and I were talking about building some level 20 characters for dueling, and our other friend will DM. When my friend mentioned that he'll be using a Planar Shepherd, the DM laughed and (jokingly, I think) says that I can either use one normal character, or build 3 characters to go against the Planar Shepherd, but the 3 characters had to be CW Samurai, Monk, and Ninja.

Is a 3 on 1 ever a fair fight? Is Planar Shepherd worth 3 characters? If I want to try this, how would I build the 3 characters?

Agree only if your friend agrees not to use the time dilation tricks.

[Woot Spitum]

Until all the monks, samus, and ninjas spend their money on an effigy master to make a cyber miniature giant space hamster. Then, they win. but then again, anything with a miniature giant space hamster wins.

So we're replacing the samurai with Samus? That makes things slightly more fair.:smallbiggrin:

[GoC]

Wouldn't make that much difference. I'm not sure what the level adjustment is for a trex, but I'm sure its pretty large. So even at 20th level an animal companion trex won't be much tougher than a regular trex.

Assuming a worst case scenario where the ninja is in an antimagic field it might take two rounds to cut through the an animal growthed trex animal companion. Under more normal conditions where the ninja can use magic items, one round is probably enough.

Swallowing the ninja is about the worst mistake the trex can make.

If the ninja can use magic items then the T-Rex is going to be buffed enough to take on Ao. Under antimagic conditions... well the PS can wildshape or get out of there and save his animal companion.
The ninja will be occupied for a round and that's all the PS needs to kill the monk.

[Temp]

For all characters; grab an Item Familiar and pump Hide/Move Silently/UMD/Initiative for all you're worth.


Then give everyone Two Weapon Fighting, Double Wand Wielder, Boots of Battle and Wands of Enervation. If you can get the Surprise round then win initiative, he should be dead.

...Or buy scrolls of Empowered Maximized Enervation and Boots of Battle.

Whatever you do, UMD, Initiative and Boots of Battle are key.

[edit:]Novice Crowns of the White Raven for White Raven Tactics are a solid bet. If any of your 3 chances to beat his initiative succeed, you'll likely be able to complete all your turns ahead of him. This would mean each needs a Martial Study feat.

[vrellum]

Its not the AoO that kills the trex, its the full attack with every attack doing sudden strike damage that kills the trex.

The planar sheppard might win, I don't know a whole lot about them, but the trex is not going to do much more than delay someone for a round or two. That is not an insignificant achievement, but some were talking about the trex being a match for one of the party members.

What is the PS's guaranteed method of killing the monk in a round?

Actually with their stealth abilities the monk and ninja can probably sneak up on the PS quite easily and do a lot of damage. I believe there are ways to get around being immune to sneak attack damage.

An invisible, leap attacking, power attacking, combat brute samurai could also put some hurt on him. Especially with his +5 wounding, collision, lucky, keen, probably some other enhancements, bastard sword while kia shouting.

[tyckspoon]

Its not the AoO that kills the trex, its the full attack with every attack doing sudden strike damage that kills the trex.

The planar sheppard might win, I don't know a whole lot about them, but the trex is not going to do much more than delay someone for a round or two. That is not an insignificant achievement, but some were talking about the trex being a match for one of the party members.

What is the PS's guaranteed method of killing the monk in a round?

Actually with their stealth abilities the monk and ninja can probably sneak up on the PS quite easily and do a lot of damage. I believe there are ways to get around being immune to sneak attack damage.

An invisible, leap attacking, power attacking, combat brute samurai could also put some hurt on him. Especially with his +5 wounding, collision, lucky, keen, probably some other enhancements, bastard sword while kia shouting.

The use of an Antimagic Field was posited. I offered swallowing the Antimagic Field-user as a counter tactic. Sure, it'll only get it out of the way for a round or two, but that's all that is needed; that round or two lets the Druid use his magic and/or Wildshape to do something that should drastically equalize the fight (like Finger of Death somebody for a good chance at getting rid of one of the opponents. That 4 LA Half Celestial would be a good target.) If no AM Field was present, the animal companion would be put to a different use. T-rexes have a base grapple check of +30; if any of the attackers can't regularly beat that, the dino can pick them up and chew on them for quite some time. Hmm.. actually, if the T-rex is tall enough, it doesn't have to swallow the ninja to remove the AMF. Just grab it in its mouth, the ninja is 10+ feet off the ground, AMF doesn't reach the rest of the combat. And the magic-less ninja has to fight the Rex's grapple check instead of attacking its insides.

[Theli]

Actually the Planar Bubble they are speaking of is a class feature of the Planar Shepherd, which is from Faiths of Eberron. It is completely unrelated to any spell named Planar Bubble.

My question was in response to this:


One more thing - one misconception that a vast number of people have is that Planar Bubble is an effect unique to the Shepherd. It isn't. It's a 7th level wizard/cleric spell . You can use the same trick back at him.

I was interested in what spell he was referring to. It may have been slightly off-topic, but there was none of the confusion that you assumed.

[Frosty]

What would be the shape of choice foe the Planar Shepherd in this fight?

[lord_khaine]

Hmm.. actually, let's go ahead and take a T-Rex as the animal companion. Your ninja uses UMD to create an antimagic field. The T-Rex bites and grabs him. Next round, it swallows him. The T-rex has a 15 foot space. The Antimagic Field is a 10 foot radius. It's entirely inside the 'rex and has no more effect on the battle (and if I understand the rules for emanations correctly, it can't go through the solid barrier that is the 'rex's body anyway.) The Druid is now free to Wildshape into something the monk has no chance of winning a grapple against, and the T-Rex can grab up the Samurai and nom-nom-nom on him while the ninja gets digested.. and tries to cut his way out with his non-magical weapons and no ability to use his (Su) class features

well the animal companion might be able to do that, but in the current setup the samurai isnt nececary for the plan, so i doubt he would have any trouble keeping the Rex away, and thats assuming the int 2 Rex know what to do besides attacking the nearest target.

im sure people could find a lot of ways a lv 20 samurai can neutralise a animal companion in 1 round, but atm i dont have time myself.

still there is a few other options to considder, like that the ninja might have maxed out his escape artist, and be able to get lose that way, or that the monk might be using one of those antimagic Torcs i have been hearing about.

[Indon]

im sure people could find a lot of ways a lv 20 samurai can neutralise a animal companion in 1 round, but atm i dont have time myself.


Drawing his sword and using an action to Intimidate the T-Rex should ensure that it is panicked, unless the Planar Shepherd can manage to get an animal companion with 20 or more HD.

[Temp]

Is there a way for the Monk, Ninja or Samurai to get Spellcraft or Use Magic Device up to 15 ranks by level 18?

If so, Metamagic Spell Trigger would be an incredible feat.

[JaxGaret]

I was interested in what spell he was referring to. It may have been slightly off-topic, but there was none of the confusion that you assumed.

Yeah, woops, I fail at reading comprehension for that post in particular.

My bad.

[Frosty]

So basically it's down to Magic Items vs PS, not Class Features of the 3 classes vs PS :smallamused:

I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Now, about fear stuff...can't the animal companion have items that boost will saves or even items that make them immune to fear?

[Malachite]

Drawing his sword and using an action to Intimidate the T-Rex should ensure that it is panicked, unless the Planar Shepherd can manage to get an animal companion with 20 or more HD.

A level 20 druid/planar shepherd's tyrannosaurus will have 20HD if planar shepherd gives full animal companion progression - 18 basic, +2 from animal companion advances.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Don't forget, the PS and his AC should both have a +5 inherent to all stats before WBL, assuming the PS chose one of the right planes and took the Rapid Wildshape feat. All stats. Assuming 25 pt-buy, that means you're looking at a Wis of 28 and a Con of 18 before you ever touch a Periapt. And, oh yeah, the T-Rex just picked up another 40 HP.

Also, I would have so much fun with free wishes. :smallbiggrin:

[Talic]

Well, If the T-rex eats the ninja, it'll die quick, yes. But that's a couple rounds that the PS has his magic. Going to any of the power 3 then, well, it equals win. Wild shape to a solar, and go up. Now, when ninja in T-rex gets out, how does he REACH the wish spamming dreadnaught?

Assume the first wish is for Freedom of movement, to answer the question on how he deals with kidney harvesting while grappled.

[lord_khaine]

but thats assuming a level 20 samurai with full WBL cant take or at least stop the T-rex from eating the ninja, and all things consideret that really should not be to hard, since its basic CR is 8.

and if we really want to fool around with free wishes then the ninja has the option of getting a candle of invocation, that should even that out.


So basically it's down to Magic Items vs PS, not Class Features of the 3 classes vs PS

I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
actualy all 3 classes are using class features, the ninja is using UMD to handle scrolls and sudden strike to quickly finish off the PS, the monk is using speed and grapple with a backup of trip to keep the PS within the field, while the samurai is using his BAB and a big weapon to either finish off the PS or stop the animal companion.

[Squash Monster]

These plans for taking out the PS are silly.

You're all assuming he's not only on the ground, but also close enough to his enemies that they can get into the bubble.

A much better strategy for him would be to fly away at high speeds, activate the bubble, and start nuking from orbit.

[lord_khaine]

These plans for taking out the PS are silly.

You're all assuming he's not only on the ground, but also close enough to his enemies that they can get into the bubble.

A much better strategy for him would be to fly away at high speeds, activate the bubble, and start nuking from orbit.

i recomend you take a closer look at the posts, the monk gains nonmagical flight speed of 110 though being half celestrial.

[Frosty]

So being a Solar is the strongest choice for a PS?

[FlyMolo]

Well.. you could home-brew a plane that is exactly like the Prime Material, except it contains no form of creature whatsoever. Pick that for your connected plane. You now get no use from Planar Bubble and nothing to turn into to use your improved Wildshape feature on. Congratulations. You have now made the Planar Shepherd.. exactly as powerful as a standard Druid.

Not at all related, but even then, Druid is one of the most powerful classes out there. You've made a ridiculously broken class into a merely normally broken class.

So there.

[lord_khaine]

So being a Solar is the strongest choice for a PS?

i belive the strongest choice is normaly considderet to be planar bubble with a eberon-specific plane where time goes 10 times as fast.

[Talic]

but thats assuming a level 20 samurai with full WBL cant take or at least stop the T-rex from eating the ninja, and all things consideret that really should not be to hard, since its basic CR is 8.

and if we really want to fool around with free wishes then the ninja has the option of getting a candle of invocation, that should even that out.


actualy all 3 classes are using class features, the ninja is using UMD to handle scrolls and sudden strike to quickly finish off the PS, the monk is using speed and grapple with a backup of trip to keep the PS within the field, while the samurai is using his BAB and a big weapon to either finish off the PS or stop the animal companion.

T rex swallowing was a counter offense to ninja with AMF. With AMF, there is precious little to protect the ninja from a grapple.

Without AMF, why even try? The ninja will just ethereal out of it.

As for 2 int critters, note that druids can handle their animal as a free action. One handle command is directing it to attack. So the druid can direct his trex to attack targets as a free action. 1st theory shot down.

Without AMF? monk grapples, PS activates bubble, shifts as a swift action (yeah, there's a feat for that) into a solar, and makes a 50/50 grapple check to move the grapple up.

Next round? Wish for ethereal jaunt. Monk and friends are left on material plane (and move). Next, Wish for contingency (and move). Now, wish for Dispel Magic, triggered on saying a single specific word (and move). Now wish for healing (and move). Now, at the start of your next action, say that word, and open up with an offensive wish.

Now, as you can see, in 1 round, outside of an AMF, the PS can get out of a grapple, hold, or other maneuver. In an AMF, the T rex will be rather hard to prevent from getting the AMF ninja from doing anything but being swallowed. If the monk has the AMF, then he can't grapple round one, and the Trex can certainly get the improved grab for 1 round, long enough for the PS to get away, and go nova.

EDIT: Note, the planar PS has any and every magic item he/she wants, also, by the usage of the 7th ability of wish. Greater metamagic rods of everything? Yep.

Intelligent items to activate buffs for him? Yep.

Access to almost every spell in existence? Yep.

Access to every item in existence? Yep.

Believe me, the fight isn't as fair as you think.

[JaxGaret]

If a Druid/PS wants to make sure that they win this (or any) fight, what they need to do is go first. The best way for a Druid/PS to ensure that it goes first is to be Wildshaped into a Dire Tortoise.

The Dire Tortoise can be found on page 151 of Sandstorm. It is also mentioned on page 48 as a choice for an Animal Companion. It has an (Ex) Special Attack called Lightning Strike that states "On the first round of combat, it gets a surprise round regardless of whether it has been noticed. A creature that notices the dire tortoise is still treated as flat-footed during this round."

So the Druid/PS gets its surprise round at the start of combat (no matter what), activates the Dal Quor Planar Bubble, and gets its 10 rounds of action. That's pretty much that for the Monk + Ninja + Samurai.

[Eldariel]

Don't forget that Druid has the best saves in the game. You aren't going to make him fail a Will-save nor a Fort-save ever. Don't waste your time trying.

Also, as said, thanks to 24h Wildshape and the Dire Tortoise-form, Druid always goes first. End of discussion. Also, Druid starts with 10 actions to cast spells. 10 summons is going to kill the fools before they ever get to act. The Druid could also Shapechange into something broken and just rape the fools. The fight isn't even close; you could probably toss 10 Ninja/Monk-level characters at the Druid without even touching him. As far as CW Samurai 20s go, I'd say a Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 10 would have no trouble killing 100 of them unless they all took UMD crossclass. Even then, dozens would fall simply to Druid going first and taking 10 actions. And having a bunch of summons to protect him at that point. And that is if he didn't already just whip out some spells of mass destruction and destroy everything.

Of course, all this is assuming we don't use any infinite Wish-chains or similar Planar Shepherd could easily invoke (has to do with his 'assume supernatural abilities'-stuff).

[Frosty]

Wtf...did the dire Tortoise take levels in Iajitsu Master or something? It's a freakin TURTLE!! Why does it always go first?

[JaxGaret]

Don't forget that Druid has the best saves in the game. You aren't going to make him fail a Will-save nor a Fort-save ever. Don't waste your time trying.

While the Druid does have some of the best Fort and Will saves in the game due to their reliance on high Con/Wis and good saves in both (builds like a Paladin of Tyranny/Blackguard can easily have much better Fort saves, and even better Will saves if they pump Cha), even the best save can be defeated by the almighty nat 1, or snake eyes if they have a save reroll.


Also, as said, thanks to 24h Wildshape and the Dire Tortoise-form, Druid always goes first. End of discussion. Also, Druid starts with 10 actions to cast spells. 10 summons is going to kill the fools before they ever get to act. The Druid could also Shapechange into something broken and just rape the fools. The fight isn't even close; you could probably toss 10 Ninja/Monk-level characters at the Druid without even touching him. As far as CW Samurai 20s go, I'd say a Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 10 would have no trouble killing 100 of them unless they all took UMD crossclass. Even then, dozens would fall simply to Druid going first and taking 10 actions. And having a bunch of summons to protect him at that point. And that is if he didn't already just whip out some spells of mass destruction and destroy everything.

Of course, all this is assuming we don't use any infinite Wish-chains or similar Planar Shepherd could easily invoke (has to do with his 'assume supernatural abilities'-stuff).

QFT. And agrees with my earlier assessment:


Also, the PS would probably destroy scores of Monks, Ninjas, and Samurai before going down - depending on starting conditions.

Note that with the Dire Tortoise form, the Druid/PS has made sure the starting conditions are in their favor.


Wtf...did the dire Tortoise take levels in Iajitsu Master or something? It's a freakin TURTLE!! Why does it always go first?

Such are the mysteries of the multiverse. According to Sandstorm, it is because "A dire tortoise can lash out very rapidly."

[Talic]

While the Druid does have some of the best Fort and Will saves in the game due to their reliance on high Con/Wis and good saves in both (builds like a Paladin of Tyranny/Blackguard can easily have much better Fort saves, and even better Will saves if they pump Cha), even the best save can be defeated by the almighty nat 1, or snake eyes if they have a save reroll.


You know, there's a fascinating feat out there that gives you a +2 to will saves and makes fort saves not fail on a nat 1.

Just sayin.

[JaxGaret]

You know, there's a fascinating feat out there that gives you a +2 to will saves and makes fort saves not fail on a nat 1.

Just sayin.

Are you talking about Steadfast Determination? That feat subs Con for Wis on Will saves, rather than giving a flat +2 to Will saves, as well as giving the sweet ability of not failing Fort saves on a nat 1.

Plus it has a poor feat, Endurance, as a prerequisite :smallsmile:

[Talic]

Are you talking about Steadfast Determination? That feat subs Con for Wis on Will saves, rather than giving a flat +2 to Will saves, as well as giving the sweet ability of not failing Fort saves on a nat 1.

Plus it has a poor feat, Endurance, as a prerequisite :smallsmile:

That would be it. And endurance may be suboptimal, but that feat is so sweet that it deserves mention.

[Eldariel]

The problem is though, for a Druid Steadfast Determination is actually going to lower your saves since your Wisdom is going to be the stat to max. I recall there was some feat that rerolls 1s on saves or something of the sort. There're also the Epic rules that make you reroll your save at -20 in the occurence of a natural 1; Druid's saves tend to be so high that it can often be manageable, especially with a decent roll.

On level 20, a Druid's Will is about 12 (base)+15 (wis)+5-6 (resistance-bonus), which comes out at 32-33 (Greater Resistance-spell gives +6 enhancement bonus and lasts hours per level, hence the mention). Since Druid is often Wildshaped, he'll use the Wildshape Con for saves and that'll often mean something like +10-+12 Con (with the enhancement bonus), which means a Druid will have his Fortitude-save at about +30. On balance, the highest DC a Balor can throw is 27. That means even if a Druid rolls a 1, he'll still have ~25% to make the save. A Great Wyrm Gold Dragon, CR 27, has Frightful Presence at DC 41, which the Druid still makes about 65% of the time. Their level 9 spells have save DCs of 30, something Druid again can't fail.

[Talic]

Con certainly won't be shirked either, as HP are modified by your base con, not your wild shape con.

16 (base), +5 (inherent) +1 (level pump) +4 (bear's endurance), we're looking at a 26 con, or +8. If you have a con focused race, +9.

Wisdom will be better, not by much. Unless you count on wild shape until planar sheperd, and focus on Con and Cha instead.

Because the solar's SLA's are Cha based.

[Eldariel]

Wildshape Con applies to Saving Throws though. It's just HP that's maintained off the normal, so saves will be even better than that.

[Cuddly]

Max UMD for all of them. Then have one of them ready an action to dimension door next to the druid on his turn when he'll presumably planar bubble, then have one pop an AMF, and the other grapple the druid. Then triple team him.

[JaxGaret]

Max UMD for all of them. Then have one of them ready an action to dimension door next to the druid on his turn when he'll presumably planar bubble, then have one pop an AMF, and the other grapple the druid. Then triple team him.

Doesn't work if the Druid is a Dire Tortoise - they're considered flat-footed against him, so they can't take any readied actions.

[Cuddly]

Doesn't work if the Druid is a Dire Tortoise - they're considered flat-footed against him, so they can't take any readied actions.

It's unlikely he'll be a dire tortoise, given that he'll probably want to be something cool, like a Solar.

[tyckspoon]

He can be a Dire Tortoise for everyday use; it's like being a wizard and keeping a Foresight up. Being a Dire Tortoise gives him the advantage he needs to set up his Planar Bubble or shift to a more advantageous form without people screwing with him before he's ready.

[Cuddly]

How's the dire tortoise work? Does it have some sort of aura of flatfootedness?

[JaxGaret]

How's the dire tortoise work? Does it have some sort of aura of flatfootedness?

It works exactly as I quoted in my previous posts.

"A dire tortoise can lash out very rapidly. On the first round of combat, it gets a surprise round regardless of whether it has been noticed. A creature that notices the dire tortoise is still treated as flat-footed during this round."

In other words, it always goes first. And it's so quick that everything is considered flat-footed against it.

[Frosty]

So, given that Dire Tortoise is an animal anyways, even Druid 20 won't lose against these 3?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

So, given that Dire Tortoise is an animal anyways, even Druid 20 won't lose against these 3?Probably. Depends on the spells prepared and the AC chosen.

[Talic]

Doesn't work if the Druid is a Dire Tortoise - they're considered flat-footed against him, so they can't take any readied actions.

Also, technically, one cannot ready actions outside of initiative.

Further, even immediate actions won't be of much help, as you cannot take them before your first action in a combat.

Truly, the Dire Tortoise's Kung-fu is strong.

[Cuddly]

Wow, druids are really good.

[JaxGaret]

So, given that Dire Tortoise is an animal anyways, even Druid 20 won't lose against these 3?

Yeah, the Druid20 will most likely win the fight too if completely tricked out.

The PS just also gets 10 rounds at the beginning of the fight, which is pretty much game over before it even begins.


Wow, druids are really good.

Yep. Druid20 is one of the most powerful builds in the game. The only Druid build that tops it is the Druid10/PS10.

[Cuddly]

I mean, that tortoise form puts a druid on par with a foresight-celerity-timestop wizard. That's just ludicrous.

Could wizardx3 even beat a Planar Shepard?

[Talic]

I mean, that tortoise form puts a druid on par with a foresight-celerity-timestop wizard. That's just ludicrous.

Could wizardx3 even beat a Planar Shepard?

With contingencies? Likely.

[Frosty]

the bigger question is, who wins between a properly-built Incantatrix and a Planar Sheperd, assuming time dilation is not one of the available plains.

[Talic]

Gestalt.

For those who believe that if one can't defeat the other, join it.

[Frosty]

too much MAD tho.

[Talic]

too much MAD tho.

With a +5 inherent to every stat??

[tyckspoon]

the bigger question is, who wins between a properly-built Incantatrix and a Planar Sheperd, assuming time dilation is not one of the available plains.

Probably the Incantatrix. Foresight nulls the Dire Tortoise's advantage, and then Celerity gives the wizard the initiative. Since we're talking about basically a quick-draw contest here, being able to go first on demand should give the Incantatrix a decisive edge.

[Cuddly]

Are you sure foresight trumps the tortoise? The text of the tortoise explicitly says the tortoise gets a surprise round; the wizard is simply never surprised or flatfooted.

Same difference?

[Talic]

Probably the Incantatrix. Foresight nulls the Dire Tortoise's advantage, and then Celerity gives the wizard the initiative. Since we're talking about basically a quick-draw contest here, being able to go first on demand should give the Incantatrix a decisive edge.

Downside is the incantatrix is on a time clock.

Round 1-3, incantatrix has a 9th level spell. PS has a wish.
Round 4-7, incantatrix has an 8th level spell. PS has a wish.

See the pattern?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The Tortoise always acts in the surprise round, even if there isn't a surprise round. Now, the Incantrix can Celerity, but if the PS is using the time dilation, he gets 10 rounds to recover before the Incantrix can act again. In other words, a lot depends on the spells and the builds.

[Cuddly]

Couldn't the PS have a whole bucketload of contingencies up, as well, with virtually any legal spell tied to it due to Wish?

[Talic]

Couldn't the PS have a whole bucketload of contingencies up, as well, with virtually any legal spell tied to it due to Wish?

Contingency is "limit one per customer", unfortunately.

[Cuddly]

Contingency is "limit one per customer", unfortunately.

Oh yeah. Isn't their a spell out there that's three contingencies in one?

Wow, when these two titans clash, time gets really, really compacted, don't it?

[Talic]

Oh yeah. Isn't their a spell out there that's three contingencies in one?

Wow, when these two titans clash, time gets really, really compacted, don't it?

You're likely thinking of one of two spells. Either greater spell matrix (SpC), which gives you up to 3 spells, level 3 or lower, or one other spell.

That spell include's "Elminster's" in the original title of the spell, if that gives you any idea of the overall power level. It, also, was a level 9 spell.

[lord_khaine]

T rex swallowing was a counter offense to ninja with AMF. With AMF, there is precious little to protect the ninja from a grapple.

Without AMF, why even try? The ninja will just ethereal out of it.

As for 2 int critters, note that druids can handle their animal as a free action. One handle command is directing it to attack. So the druid can direct his trex to attack targets as a free action. 1st theory shot down.

Without AMF? monk grapples, PS activates bubble, shifts as a swift action (yeah, there's a feat for that) into a solar, and makes a 50/50 grapple check to move the grapple up.

Next round? Wish for ethereal jaunt. Monk and friends are left on material plane (and move). Next, Wish for contingency (and move). Now, wish for Dispel Magic, triggered on saying a single specific word (and move). Now wish for healing (and move). Now, at the start of your next action, say that word, and open up with an offensive wish.

Now, as you can see, in 1 round, outside of an AMF, the PS can get out of a grapple, hold, or other maneuver. In an AMF, the T rex will be rather hard to prevent from getting the AMF ninja from doing anything but being swallowed. If the monk has the AMF, then he can't grapple round one, and the Trex can certainly get the improved grab for 1 round, long enough for the PS to get away, and go nova.

EDIT: Note, the planar PS has any and every magic item he/she wants, also, by the usage of the 7th ability of wish. Greater metamagic rods of everything? Yep.

Intelligent items to activate buffs for him? Yep.

Access to almost every spell in existence? Yep.

Access to every item in existence? Yep.

Believe me, the fight isn't as fair as you think.


and im just countering the animal companion with that its both not sure it will be able to swallow the ninja, if he has maxed escape artist, and that even if he can handle his companion as a free action, then he would still have trouble explaining it to attack the ninja and not the monk.
and this is of course only if the samurai does not kill it in first round.

also, a singel round of full attacks inside the antimagic field should be enough to kill the PS.

and by using candles the ninja has everything the PS has.

now the hard thing to counter is the tortoise, though i would claim that its a form thats to impractical for everyday use, since as i recall its Huge.
well in that case i suspect the best option would be to sneak up on the tortoise and cach it in a surprise round.

[Nebo_]

well in that case i suspect the best option would be to sneak up on the tortoise and cach it in a surprise round.

Now I just started looking at this thread, so correct me if I'm making any wrong assumptions. I assume that he's talking about a dire tortoise here. That means it acts in the surprise round, even if there isn't one. They're just that awesome.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Gah, people don't actually seem to read the Planar Shepherd class.

Firstly it's either/or for the wishes/time dilation. Wishes come from Balors, Solars, or Efreeti, but none of those are native to the correct planes for time silliness. PS can only choose one.

Secondly, the planar bubble ability, as I've said earlier, is not a unique ability of the PS, but a Spell-like ability. In short - wizards can have it too, not restricted to the Eberron cosmology (timeless Far Realms? Yeah, I'll have that). The dire tortoise gives the druid a bit of time, but, I'm afraid, wizards still win.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

and im just countering the animal companion with that its both not sure it will be able to swallow the ninja, if he has maxed escape artist, and that even if he can handle his companion as a free action, then he would still have trouble explaining it to attack the ninja and not the monk.
Attack (DC 20): The animal attacks apparent enemies. You may point to a particular creature that you wish the animal to attack, and it will comply if able. Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, or other animals. Teaching an animal to attack all creatures (including such unnatural creatures as undead and aberrations) counts as two tricks.
and this is of course only if the samurai does not kill it in first round.20 HD minimum. Massive con mod. I think the Samurai is going to have some problems.
also, a singel round of full attacks inside the antimagic field should be enough to kill the PS.Con is the second-most important stat for Druids, who have D8 HD. And the AMF is inside the T-rex, remember?
and by using candles the ninja has everything the PS has.If your argument boils down to "I can use a Candle of Invocation to beat it, well, that's still pretty good.
now the hard thing to counter is the tortoise, though i would claim that its a form thats to impractical for everyday use, since as i recall its Huge.Reduce Animal. 2nd level spell.
well in that case i suspect the best option would be to sneak up on the tortoise and catch it in a surprise round.In which case it's back to standard initiative rolls. Oh, BTW, the Druid has a +4 mod to his Dex without spending any WBL. Enjoy.

[lord_khaine]

Now I just started looking at this thread, so correct me if I'm making any wrong assumptions. I assume that he's talking about a dire tortoise here. That means it acts in the surprise round, even if there isn't one. They're just that awesome.
yes but as long as it does not act first in the surprise round all is not lost.


20 HD minimum. Massive con mod. I think the Samurai is going to have some problems.

no ac to speak off and some power attack should equal 1 dead animal companion.


Con is the second-most important stat for Druids, who have D8 HD. And the AMF is inside the T-rex, remember?

no the AMF might end up inside the t-rex with a bit of luck or lack of the same, but that would only be because the samura instead focused his attention on the PS, and that should be enough to get him killed.


If your argument boils down to "I can use a Candle of Invocation to beat it, well, that's still pretty good.
no my argument is more that unlimitet wish cheese isnt something thats reserved for the PS, so what he can abuse there the team can also break.


Reduce Animal. 2nd level spell.
well good, now he is just a large slow animal without hands who cant speak.


In which case it's back to standard initiative rolls. Oh, BTW, the Druid has a +4 mod to his Dex without spending any WBL. Enjoy
im not sure what you are talking about here to be honest?
but getting +4 to dex is so small a part of WBL for a level 20 that it hardly matters, also he will have to beat 3 checks to act first.

[Nebo_]

no ac to speak off and some power attack should equal 1 dead animal companion.

With natural bond and reduce animal, the Dire Tortoise has a minimum of 35 AC. That's with no items or buffs at all.

[Talic]

Normally, by rules, a creature can only act in the surprise round if its opponent is surprised. Druids have foresight. Let's assume this one can feel safe devoting all his 9th level slots to it, thus keeping it up all the time, because he has wish 1/round as a standard action. Now, you cannot have surprise.

PS gains an ability wherein it can ignore this rule and always act in the surprise round. That does not extend to others in the combat.

Thus, anyone the PS is aware, of which should be everyone, assuming an otherwise even battleground, does not act in the surprise round. PS goes first.

As for power attack? Let's assume that the samurai cannot get a full attack, and is using all the class abilities that an ex-paladin can have to do his power attack (which is all you're using). Let's assume a power attack for 20, a hit (natural 20), followed by a failed confirmation. Let's then assume he's power attacking 1 for 4. Ok, that's 80 damage. Assume a 2d6 weapon, max damage. That's 92. Assume 2 energy traits on the weapon, both of which deal maximum damage. That's 104. Hm. We're still got 90 or so HP to go, assuming a standard, no HP or con boost SRD T-rex. I feel that odds are low of a 1 shot on the T-rex.

As for the candle of invocation, the PS gets wishes through a class ability. You're getting it through something that anyone can do. Thus, three experts have an even shot, with the candle. That is, unless the PS sees the candles coming out and uses a weather based spell of some sort to make conditions that are incompatible with lighting a candle... Now, hmm, what are the chances of a druid having such a spell?

So far, the arguement has gone from "ok, they use AMF" to "ok they don't they use magic to damage the animal companion" to "ok they don't they all pull out candles and light them" to what next? How many times in a row does the PS win until you find one pattern that happens to work a portion of the time?

[Illiterate Scribe]

Normally, by rules, a creature can only act in the surprise round if its opponent is surprised. Druids have foresight. Let's assume this one can feel safe devoting all his 9th level slots to it, thus keeping it up all the time, because he has wish 1/round as a standard action. Now, you cannot have surprise.


Sorry, but which outsider gives the druid 1 wish/round?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Fast Wildshape feat+Solar. Fast Wildshape into one, Wish 3 times, Wildshape again. You get 6 Wildshapes a day.

[lord_khaine]

With natural bond and reduce animal, the Dire Tortoise has a minimum of 35 AC. That's with no items or buffs at all.
well that actualy doesnt matters, the only reason to attack the companion was in the case it was a Tyranosaurus and would swallow the antimagic field.


As for power attack? Let's assume that the samurai cannot get a full attack, and is using all the class abilities that an ex-paladin can have to do his power attack (which is all you're using). Let's assume a power attack for 20, a hit (natural 20), followed by a failed confirmation. Let's then assume he's power attacking 1 for 4. Ok, that's 80 damage. Assume a 2d6 weapon, max damage. That's 92. Assume 2 energy traits on the weapon, both of which deal maximum damage. That's 104. Hm. We're still got 90 or so HP to go, assuming a standard, no HP or con boost SRD T-rex. I feel that odds are low of a 1 shot on the T-rex.

if you are going to put up a example for the samurai then put at least a little thought into it.
for a start lets assume he actualy gets a full attack, since thats pretty easy using ToB feats or gear.
then with 30 str, boots of speed and a +5wounding weapon he would do
2d6+15+5+40+1 con damage.
thats 5 attacks for 67 points of damage and 1 con per hit, i think someone will need a new animal companion.


As for the candle of invocation, the PS gets wishes through a class ability. You're getting it through something that anyone can do. Thus, three experts have an even shot, with the candle. That is, unless the PS sees the candles coming out and uses a weather based spell of some sort to make conditions that are incompatible with lighting a candle... Now, hmm, what are the chances of a druid having such a spell?

first of all the candles are used though UMD, thats a class skill for the ninja, and i think you are misunderstanding what im saying, the candles were used as a counter for the infinitive wealth the PS could have, and in that case using weatherbased spells would not help there.
and do you seriously think the PS could do anything with weather magic to prevent lighting a candle, that could not be countered faster than he could cast the spell?


So far, the arguement has gone from "ok, they use AMF" to "ok they don't they use magic to damage the animal companion" to "ok they don't they all pull out candles and light them" to what next? How many times in a row does the PS win until you find one pattern that happens to work a portion of the time?
you must be following a different argument, it has gone from "ok, the animal companion can swallow the antimagic field", to "no really, the CR 8 dino is not going to be stopped by a level 20 char....." to now " the PS is hereby going to spend all his time as a huge turtle"

so far the only way the PS has had a better than average chance of winning is by hiding as a turtle while spending all his spells on premonition.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Fast Wildshape feat+Solar. Fast Wildshape into one, Wish 3 times, Wildshape again. You get 6 Wildshapes a day.

Meh, OK. It burns through resources very quickly, and remember that Solars have only one wish per day - you'll get at most 3/day out of it, and that's all of your wildshapes gone.

[Talic]

Meh, OK. It burns through resources very quickly, and remember that Solars have only one wish per day - you'll get at most 3/day out of it, and that's all of your wildshapes gone.

They get scads of other abilities though.

[tyckspoon]

Say, did this fight go Epic when we weren't watching? Or does the Planar Shepherd get to ignore HD limits on his wildshaping along with everything else? The Solar is a 22 HD being.. if we *are* being Epic, then we're pitting an epic spellcaster against 3 non-spellcasters and the whole thing isn't worth talking about. If we're not, let's at least stop assuming the Shepherd might be a Solar.. he could still be a Planetar for 17th-level clerical casting, or turn into something else that can perform a wish (repeatedly toggle into a pit fiend to abuse the once-a-year-Wish, maybe.)

[Eldariel]

You can just use some CL enhancing items to pump it to 22. It ain't hard to find two that stack. That of course means you use Shapechange-spell and not Wildshape, which is another broken ballpark entirely. If we denounce the use of stupid broken spells and focus on using Planar Shepherd's stupid broken abilities instead, I suppose we'll have to settle for Pit Fiends, Balors or Planetars. Or Dire Tortoise.

Also, I'm willing to bet the Druid isn't getting surprised. Spot and Listen are Druid's class skills in addition to any supernatural senses he may have, and they're both Wisdom-derived, so we're easily looking at +38 in both without using Magic, +68 with corresponding items. Those classes can't generally afford to focus on Dexterity to the exclusion of all other scores, so their Hide and Move Silently just won't match up to a Druid's Wisdom. Also, they can't use Timeless Body + Age-categories to max out their bonuses (not that their physical attributes could be maxed anyways). Unless they can beat Druid's spot-checks and Initiative, they won't be getting to act on the surprise round at all and we're again looking at Druid doing stupid stuff for 10 turns and the fools standing there flat-footed and dead.


Let's just drop the whole discussion, Planar Shepherd is cheese beyond belief. A Druid 20 could be slightly more reasonable, but without serious spell restrictions, it's still going to be a breeze due to the stupidity of Shapechange et co. And if Druid knows beforehand that he's going to engage those fools, he could just Wish them out of existence with his class features (Shapechange), so we'll have to assume that this is a completely random encounter with nobody having specifically prepared for it (which means that Druid has hour/day and persistent buffs on and the trio has no specifically geared abilities active).

[Yahzi]

I mean, that tortoise form puts a druid on par with a foresight-celerity-timestop wizard. That's just ludicrous.
But only if he wants to spend every waking moment as a turtle.

If the druid is constantly in turtle form, then I say the Samurai has already won.

:smallbiggrin:

[Sstoopidtallkid]

But only if he wants to spend every waking moment as a turtle.

If the druid is constantly in turtle form, then I say the Samurai has already won.

:smallbiggrin:6 Wildshapes per day. They each last 20 hours. Any Druid who is in any way suspicious of combat can liberally abuse this.

[Talic]

If not more. Giving up a couple spell levels (difference between level 17 casting and level 20) for Master of Many Forms, will net you an extra shift each level. I believe there's a feat for extra wildshapes, as well. Heck, if you can get 5 levels of warshaper, you can keep shifting in 1 wildshape as often as you like.

[lord_khaine]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahzi
But only if he wants to spend every waking moment as a turtle.

If the druid is constantly in turtle form, then I say the Samurai has already won.



6 Wildshapes per day. They each last 20 hours. Any Druid who is in any way suspicious of combat can liberally abuse this.

i think he means that if the drud gets so paranoid he spend the rest of his time as a turtle, then he has allready lost.

[Talic]

I disagree. Some people love gardening. Others consider it the most boring waste of time possible.

Some love fishing. Others, think it's a waste of a boat rental.

What if the druid enjoys the form?

That said, if the Druid spent his time in tortoise form whenever he believed encounters to be likely (he does get divination, after all), well, then he'd have a good chance of being a bit more ready than the average bear (or turtle).

[Frosty]

i think he means that if the drud gets so paranoid he spend the rest of his time as a turtle, then he has allready lost.

As opposed to the wizard spending all his time in his own demi plane, only coming out when he has a hankering to procure the services of a prostitute (and even then, he will enjoy said prostitutes only through an Astral Projection)? :smallwink:

[GoC]

As opposed to the wizard spending all his time in his own demi plane, only coming out when he has a hankering to procure the services of a prostitute (and even then, he will enjoy said prostitutes only through an Astral Projection)? :smallwink:

What?!:smallmad: :smallconfused:
You mean he doesn't have a harem of dominated concubines on his demiplane?!:smallfurious:

[Tola]

But only if he wants to spend every waking moment as a turtle.

If the druid is constantly in turtle form, then I say the Samurai has already won.

Am I the only one thinking of...

Wait a sec. Door.

...

...

...Ah, there's a real crazy bunch out here. Looks like four humanoid turtles and....a humanoid rat. Oh, and two humans. They'd like a word...

[Frosty]

What?!:smallmad: :smallconfused:
You mean he doesn't have a harem of dominated concubines on his demiplane?!:smallfurious:

Dude, everytime he forces them to service his scrawny, 6 to 8 charisma body, each of them gets to roll another Will save since this is *very* against their nature. They'll roll a natural 20 eventually. :smallamused:

[Eldariel]

Dude, everytime he forces them to service his scrawny, 6 to 8 charisma body, each of them gets to roll another Will save since this is *very* against their nature. They'll roll a natural 20 eventually. :smallamused:

It's actually very easy for the Wizard to just persist few Charisma-enhancing spells. Also, he'll just redominate anyone who managed to save against the domination.

[mostlyharmful]

Also he has a big Int bonus.... surely he can spend a few on preform:smallbiggrin:

[Frosty]

It's actually very easy for the Wizard to just persist few Charisma-enhancing spells. Also, he'll just redominate anyone who managed to save against the domination.

So he'll have a bigger force of personality. Doesn't make his body any less scrawny or any more appealing :smallbiggrin: Personally, Charm is so much better. What kinda action is it to force someone to do something? I mean, controlling a few hundred harem girl at once must be taxing. It's better to make their attitude friendly or fanatical than Dominate Person.

[Eldariel]

So he'll have a bigger force of personality. Doesn't make his body any less scrawny or any more appealing :smallbiggrin: Personally, Charm is so much better. What kinda action is it to force someone to do something? I mean, controlling a few hundred harem girl at once must be taxing. It's better to make their attitude friendly or fanatical than Dominate Person.

Sure, but a neutral or evil Wizard might have desires he'll need Dominated Harem Girls to fulfill O.o Although Fanatics work too, but that's a ton of work.

And since we agree that Charisma is force of personality and not appearance, the girls shouldn't have trouble in that regard. Maybe the Wizard is a dashing, not-leader-type. Or maybe he's a fiend binder and thus has Cha 14-16?