[3.5] Mundane VoP Build

[Thurbane]

So, just wondering, purely as a thought exercise: is it possible to make a workable Vow of Poverty build using mundane classes? By workable, I mean something that could actually function in a regular party without being a dead weight.

And by mundane, I mean classes who aren't spellcasters, invocation users, incarnum users, psionics users, utterance users, mystery users, Binders, Artificers etc.

Caveat: yes, I'm sure I've missed something off that list that goes against the intent of this challenge, and yes you're very clever for finding it. Have a pat on the head. :smallwink:

For this challenge, I would consider initiators as mundane (although steering clear of Su manoeuvres and stances would be more in the spirit of things), as well as classes that get a small handful of Su abilities or SLAs.

Factotum, for example, gets quite a lot of SLAs, so wouldn't be considered mundane for this challenge. As another example, Monk, while it gets some Su abilities, would still be mundane for this challenge.

Rangers and Paladins above 3rd count as casters, unless they take one of the ACFs where they trade away their casting ability.

Try to use your own judgement: again, the challenge is not to beat the wording of the challenge itself (which would be trivially easy, I'm sure), but rather to see what you can do within the confines and the spirit of the challenge.

Assume 32 point buy, and all official sources on the table (assume it's for an Iron Chef entry if you're not sure what I mean by official).

No LA buyoff or other alternative systems from UA - if in doubt, refer to IC.

If you absolutely, positively must use something from Dragon Mag or Dungeon Mag, you can, but would be preferred without.

No PF.

Cheers - T

[mattie_p]

For clarification, surely you mean a 32 point buy, correct?

[AvatarVecna]

So, just wondering, purely as a thought exercise: is it possible to make a workable Vow of Poverty build using mundane classes? By workable, I mean something that could actually function in a regular party without being a dead weight.

I mean, depending on op level, some people would question if this were possible even if VoP wasn't a requirement. :smalltongue:

[Thurbane]

For clarification, surely you mean a 32 point buy, correct?

Correct. Fixed now. Doesn't matter how many times I re-read before posting, there's always something. :smalltongue:


I mean, depending on op level, some people would question if this were possible even if VoP wasn't a requirement. :smalltongue:

True :smallbiggrin:

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Hmm, does using a Sparring Dummy of the Master violate VoP?

[Maat Mons]

I guess Unarmed Swordsage is the obvious answer. Though, as I recall, the ability that gives them Wis to AC only works in light armor by RAW. So they don't have Wis to AC when unarmored.

[Kazyan]

Just make an ubercharger. LST Barbarian's pounce is (Su), but other than that, take some White Raven maneuvers, the Shock Trooper/Leap Attack chain, and hit things sufficiently hard with your mundane quarterstaff.

[Thurbane]

Hmm, does using a Sparring Dummy of the Master violate VoP?

It's borderline, but I'd say probably yes.


I guess Unarmed Swordsage is the obvious answer. Though, as I recall, the ability that gives them Wis to AC only works in light armor by RAW. So they don't have Wis to AC when unarmored.

I thought I read an FAQ recently that said it should work with light or no armor, but yeah, by RAW, needs to be light.

Cancer Mage gets Tatterdemalion, but is incompatible with VoP for alignment reasons, and also gets quite a few SLAs and Su abilities, so would borderline at best.

[mattie_p]

If you ignore the flirting abilities, celebrant of sharess gets (Ex) Pounce at level 5 plus a few rages, and lines up with exalted feats anyway.

[Soranar]

It's going to be tough to have a decent fighting style : wildshaping is out, mounted combat is out, ranged is either daggers or crossbow...

so how about this guy

Race: anthropomorphic baleen whale
Template: proto creature (makes your racial HD count for barb rage)
alternate class features
-lion totem (for pounce)
-trapkiller (more uses for survival is always good)
-totem manifestation wolf (lose DR for track +2 to survival)
-whirling frenzy

STATS (32 pts)

STR 16 + 12 = 28 base (main stat, gets every increase)
DEX 14 +4= 18 base
CON 16 +6= 22 base
INT 14-2 = 12 (useful for skillpoints)
WIS 8+4 = 12 (dump stat)
CHA 8-4= 4 (dump stat)

Natural armor + 12

You need to take 4 levels of monstrous humanoid but they give you d10 hitpoints (due to proto creature) and full BAB + rage progression

1 Monstrous humanoid
2 Monstrous humanoid
3 Monstrous humanoid
4 Monstrous humanoid
5+ Barbarian
1 warblade dip for iron heart surge

Equipment: a 2 handed longspear (reach), pack a blunt weapon just in case and add a couple of thrown daggers too so you have a ranged option
Skillpoints: you should max out survival since it's the one thing you do well

you can track with it
you can kill traps with it
and you can just use normal survival options

feats: wizard slayer combinations with blindfight

role: you're big and you're mean, you have lots of hitpoints, insane AC (+12 natural armor + 4 from DEX + VOP armor bonuses), pounce and extra attacks and extra reach. You're a blindsense wizard slayer too.

[Thurbane]

Just make an ubercharger. LST Barbarian's pounce is (Su), but other than that, take some White Raven maneuvers, the Shock Trooper/Leap Attack chain, and hit things sufficiently hard with your mundane quarterstaff.

That could be solid.


If you ignore the flirting abilities, celebrant of sharess gets (Ex) Pounce at level 5 plus a few rages, and lines up with exalted feats anyway.

Interesting idea. I have a massive personal distaste for the class, but still, interesting.


It's going to be tough to have a decent fighting style : wildshaping is out, mounted combat is out, ranged is either daggers or crossbow...

so how about this guy

Race: anthropomorphic baleen whale
Template: proto creature (makes your racial HD count for barb rage)
alternate class features
-lion totem (for pounce)
-trapkiller (more uses for survival is always good)
-totem manifestation wolf (lose DR for track +2 to survival)
-whirling frenzy

STATS (32 pts)

STR 16 + 12 = 28 base (main stat, gets every increase)
DEX 14 +4= 18 base
CON 16 +6= 22 base
INT 14-2 = 12 (useful for skillpoints)
WIS 8+4 = 12 (dump stat)
CHA 8-4= 4 (dump stat)

Natural armor + 12

You need to take 4 levels of monstrous humanoid but they give you d10 hitpoints (due to proto creature) and full BAB + rage progression

1 Monstrous humanoid
2 Monstrous humanoid
3 Monstrous humanoid
4 Monstrous humanoid
5+ Barbarian
1 warblade dip for iron heart surge

Equipment: a 2 handed longspear (reach), pack a blunt weapon just in case and add a couple of thrown daggers too so you have a ranged option
Skillpoints: you should max out survival since it's the one thing you do well

you can track with it
you can kill traps with it
and you can just use normal survival options

feats: wizard slayer combinations with blindfight

role: you're big and you're mean, you have lots of hitpoints, insane AC (+12 natural armor + 4 from DEX + VOP armor bonuses), pounce and extra attacks and extra reach. You're a blindsense wizard slayer too.

Very interesting; although Proto Creature wouldn't meet the allowed sources.

Also, VoP means you get one (and only one) simple weapon; usually a quarterstaff or the like.

[Maat Mons]

Things you get from Vow of Poverty:
Freedom of Movement: 14th level is pretty late, but I guess it's there.
True Seeing: Ditto.

Things you still need:
Flight: Dragonborn, Raptoran, dragonblood feats
Immunity to Death Effects: Paladin 4 with Aura of Sanctity ACF (choose either this or imunity to compulsions), Warforged Juggernaut, real constructs, deathless
Immunity to Mind-Affecting Effects: Moon-Warded Ranger 11 (lets beneficial effects through), Paladin of Freedom 3 (compulsions only), Paladin 4 with Aura of Sanctity ACF (compulsions only, choose either this or immunity to death effects), Warforged Juggernaut, real constructs, deathless
Miss Chance: ???
Teleportation: ???



So exalted murderbot is an option. Warforged with Adamantine Body going into Warforged Juggernaut. If flaws are allowed, also take Dragontouched, Dragon Wings, and Improved Dragon Wings. You're part Adamantine Dragon, obviously. But no one's quite sure how.

Or maybe maugs are the real exalted murderbots. But you can't play one before ECL 5.



Paizo Paladin is another option. Paladin of Freedom gets immunity to Compulsions at level 3, so you don't get mind-controlled into doing evil things and lose your Exalted feats forever. The Aura of Sanctity ACF gives immunity to death effects. So your lack of access to Death Ward and Soulfire armor doesn't get you killed.

You could add in Battledancer for Charisma to AC. Or Moon-Warded Ranger 2 for Wisdom to AC, and pair it with Serenity. Or use Chaos Monk instead of Moon-Warded Ranger.



I guess some sort of Kensai build might be possbile. But the only good idea that springs to mind is playing a grell, and adding Wounding to all your tentacles.

I mean, humanoid Kensai could add weapon special abilities to their fists. But wouldn't it be better to two-hand a quarterstaff for Power Attack damage?

[ciopo]

I like this, I'll make a stub when I'm home from work.

I'm leaning toward making a ranger/paladin/scout/beastmaster, with both swift hunter and devoted tracker. With the "trade spellcasting for extra feats" ACFs , of course.

A flying celestial mount

Maybe some dips, maybe some PrC that have X to Y, but the most interesting one for this concept (the CG barbarian/paladin, champion of gwynsomething) has standalone spellcasting so it's right out. Otherwise I would see me put a barb level for pounce here, too, and then progress it with 2 levels of champion for double divine grace and still progressing rage.

Bear warrior too could work, but that's a bit less mundane for my taste

mmmh, here's a stub

shifter ranger 4 / paladin 8 / weretouched master 3 / beastmaster 3

the idea is having a celestial dire eagle as the mount, pumped up with devoted tracker

8 paladin levels are 2 bonus feats and +4HD to the mount , the bonus feat from holy warrior will probably go toward getting spirited charge

shifter ranger for the share shifting ACF of course, and champion of the wild to .. trobule, because the combat style would be the fangshield natural attack one, so there's a bit of homebrewy needed here

the druid equivalent level should be 10 ( 6 beastmaster +3 natural bond + 2 ranger -1 celestial companion feat) , with maybe another 2 if the DM okays stacking the fangshield companion ACF with the shifter companion ACF. this should be good enough to get the dire eagle from races of stone and probably advance it by at least 2 HD

weretouched master 3 is to get the pounce, of course.

could maybe swing a barbarian for pounce instead, because shifter savagery or whatever that feat it was that make shifting+rage sexier was

anyway, intuitive attack so we can stay SAD on wisdom/charisma, and that feat that let's us use our mount STR for the damage rolls

the dire eagle should have 11-13HD, depending if you use the PHB II table, and uhm 24ish str? more because we give her VoP too, of course

something like that, I'll make a proper table when I'm home

[pabelfly]

What about a Ranger/Stalker of Kharash VoP build? Take the feat Nemesis a bunch of times through Vow of Poverty to see invisible enemies (and even see them through most solid matter) and get some bonus damage against them. You'd get Arcane and Evil as Favored enemies, and a few other enemies of your choice, which works extremely well with Nemesis. Trade spells for extra feats to further boost your archery capability.

I'd also see if you can trade the animal companion for a bonus to attack rolls (Solitary Hunting, Dragon Magazine).

Two options for combat style. Archery would be easier, but if you wanted to go melee, you could get a template like "Winged Creature" to get aerial movement, and make use of Favored Power attack along with the usual power attack setup. Piscator Style (again, Dragon Magazine) would work well here.

[Anthrowhale]

A subtle difficulty of mundane-only builds is keeping up with creature AC sufficiently. By level 20, you want to have at least a reasonable chance of hitting AC 40 with your 4th iterative, for example. For this reason, touch attack approaches seem desirable since touch ACs stay relatively constant. The applicable touch attack here seems to be a Poison Ring (from Dragon Compendium) which is a simple weapon. It's a light weapon which does 1 damage on a touch attack, but you could increase the size by two categories to make it a 2-handed weapon with a -4 penalty to attack and pick up power attack allowing you to deal up to 1d3+40(power attack)+Str*1.5+5(VoP) per hit. (Disbelief by opponents due to observing a two-handed power attack with an oversized ring as a touch attack is a bonus.)

Skills become much more important on a mundane build. In particular, having Hide/Move Silently/Spot at high levels substantially improves survivability by allowing the character to control when engagements occur and giving surprise rounds. If you get these as class skills, you can keep them topped up using the retraining rules when taking later classes. Iajutsu Focus can also potentially provide some nice extra bonus damage and Concentration can substitute for otherwise-low saves via the diamond mind counters.

Classwise, Crusader (healing), Warblade (avoiding and removing conditions), and Swordsage (tactical teleport) are quite helpful dips picking up abilities that are otherwise unavailable to mundanes.

AC-wise, VoP only provides +16 and AC 26 is lame by level 20. This can be significantly augmented using Combat Expertise + Improved Combat Expertise, and it will be useful to the party if you take Allied Defense as well.

Racewise, Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale gives LA+0 large with Str+8, Dex+4, Con+4, Wis+4 with a +9 natural armor bonus, a tail attack, and Blindsight 60' which is a solid platform to build off of even if you are stuck with 3 monstrous humanoid HD.

There's also the Sculpt Self feat (Dragon 303? ) which allows you to burn XP for various nice special abilities.

[liquidformat]

Here are a few different ones that I have played with VoP that work well though they skirt the line of mundane.

Bear Totem City Brawler Barbarian 3/Predator Champion of the Wild Ranger 5/Fist of the Forest 2/Primeval 10, base race isn't super important and I often go with human just for the bonus feat and extra skill points since you tank int pretty hard on this build. I specifically take Bear Totem and City Brawler to get toughness, Great Fortitude, and Improved Unarmed Strike since they are prerequisite feats for the PRCs. After taking Self-Sufficient and Power Attack I really have to look hard at when to take sacred vow and VoP since there just aren't enough Exalted feats to take ten of them, I normally try to take vow around level 9-12.

Shifter Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Unarmed Swordsage 4/Fist of the Forest 3/Weretouched Master(not errata'ed version)5/Warshaper 4/2 levels open normally just take more swordsage or warblade. Focus here is going full blender I like being shifter with longtooth and either taking lion spirit totem barb for pounce or picking up tiger from weretouched master. I normally take Shifter savagery, Longtooth Elite, Extra Shifter Trait [wildhunt], wildhunt elite and maybe beast strike or some of the other claw/bite feats like INW or greater bite greater rend shifter multiattack is also useful and possibly extra rage after taking all the prerequisite feats.

[ciopo]

alright, let's make a bit more thought out stub

this is a bit more "loose" about RAW than I would use for an IC entry, in particular I'm applying both the shifter and the fangshield substitution levels to the 4th level of ranger, and I'm using the fangshield subs despite the shifter RAW not qualifying for them.

bulletpoints

* devoted tracker, 8 paladin levels for two feats from holy warrior ACF
* a shifters considers Improved natural attack as a shifter feat, neat sinergy with fangshield ranger ACF to qualify for weretouched master
* at least 1 level of beastmaster for the gravy +4 "EDL", and natural bond of course

*(celestial) dire eagle is an EDL-6 choice from PHB II, I'm not going to use the old EDL-4 as listed form Races of stones. Eagle starts at 5HD, so the +4 HD from 8 paladin levels are just right for giving it 2 feats for VoP
* EDL = 4 from fangshield ranger +4 from beastamaser - 7 from celestial+choice is just right for getting the eagle, natural bond pushes it to +2HD, 2 more level of beastmaster pushes it to +4 HD, I'm feeling this competes with fighter for 2 feats mostly.
* we use natural attacks, so we don't need pounce

base idea :

ranger 4 paladin 8 beastmaster 1-3 weretouched 2 barb 1 (shifter savagery!) battledancer 1 (cha to ac!) fist of the forest 1 (con to ac!) then ??

1ranger 1 feat sacred vow
2ranger 2 fangshield combat style improved natural attack
3ranger 3 feat Vow of Poverty
4ranger 4 champion of the wild ACF bonus feat (idk, combat expertise? would be great if we could kick off a prerequisite here) , Vop feat nymph kiss
5barbarian 1
6weretouched 1 feat skill focus handle animal (prereq), Vop feat exalted companion?
7weretouched 2 B shifter savagery (we can now shift 2/day!)
8beastmaster 1 (placeholder VoP feat)
9paladin 1 feat natural bond (7 HD celestial dire eagle)
10paladin 2 (placeholder VoP feat)
11paladin 3
12paladin 4 feat devoted tracker, holy warrior bonus feat Power attack, (placeholder VoP feat)
13paladin 5 (9HD celestial dire eagle, dire eagle gets her own VoP)
14paladin 6 (placeholder VoP feat)
15paladin 7 feat great fortitude (prereq)
16paladin 8 B holy warrior ACF bonus feat divine might
17 battle dancer 1 (IUS for FotF prerequisites, CHA to AC)
18 Fist of the forest 1 (CON to AC), feat extra rage (rage 3/day, shifting 2/day, trance 1/day)
19 ??
20 ??

we could maybe fit 2 fighter feats somewhere, but it's kinda tight because the kind of things I'd go for now, they'd see better use early on, such as either intuitive attack or finesse

Vop stat bonuses, I'm leaning toward +8 CON + 6 CHA +4 WIS +2 DEX, eagle VoP stat +4 STR +2 DEX or +4 STR +2 CON, *shrugs*

I'm lamenting that we can't use a lance with tremendous charge, I'm feeling what's the biggest limitation for "usability" of VoP for mundanes is the "simple weapon only". If we could use martial weapons, this would be rather different, bows or lances or what have you.

I'm feeling it's kinda meh, maybe I shouldn't pursue so many things at once :) I'm tapped out for the day

[Zarvistic]

I think a changeling rogue 20 with fighter feats instead of sneak attack would still be pretty useful. Lots of skills, especially high knowledge and could pick up a bunch of different sub levels besides changeling if allowed with racial emulation.

[AnimeTheCat]

Spellscale Knight 20

Take Vow of Non-Violence and Vow of Peace to get +4 to your Test of Mettle DC against monstrous humanoids and humanoids plus the Calm Emotions Aura. Max that Charisma (33 if you start with Base 18, +2 for race, +5 for levels, +8 for VoP) to make that DC as high as you can from ability score. Take Ability Focus on Test of Mettle and your Vow of Peace aura.

Your DC should be 10+9 (1/2 knight level)+11 (Charisma Modifier)+2 (Ability Focus), which gets you a DC 32. That's sufficient to force a Balor to focus on you 65% of the time or a Solar to focus on you 60% of the time. That's not nothing.

Keep all of your other Knight's Challenges for when the Balor or Solar inevitably comes to wreck your face because you're going to be reduced to below -10 pretty fast. That's ok, just burn your Knight's Challenge uses until the rest of the party has killed the enemy. You should be able to last ~20 rounds (10 uses from class levels +11 from charisma).

With Vow of Peace, you should be able to use Test of Mettle to bring any melee combatants in to your aura of calm emotions, cutting the number of actively hostile enemies on the battlefield down. You should also be able to start making diplomacy checks to coerce the now calm enemies to stop their actions, raise their dispositions, and not fight. If you have to fight... I dunno take improved trip or grapple them or something. Deal nonlethal damage. How you do it, irrelevant to me. This guys job is to be a calming magnet.

[Thurbane]

Some really interesting ideas here, thank you all. :smallsmile:

I'm curious about the Anthro Baleen Whale as a base, since two people brought it up: is there any easy way to get flight onto them? I mean, Dragonborn works, but wipes out their natural AC as a side effect.

Is there a way to get flight through feats? Dragon Wings works, but is 1st level only: so you either need to suck up LA with a template, or rely on Flaws to get the Dragontouched feat, and flaws are an alternate system.

Starspawn gives flight, but Aberration blood required Humanoid type.

Short of that, is there any mundane base classes or PrCs that give flight of some kind?

[Anthrowhale]

I'm curious about the Anthro Baleen Whale as a base, since two people brought it up: is there any easy way to get flight onto them? I mean, Dragonborn works, but wipes out their natural AC as a side effect.

You also lose the blindsight, which is fantastic given the lack of other ways to deal with invisibility.

There are three reasonable approaches I know to flight.

Fake it with Shadow Jaunt. It's a 50' tactical teleport reusable every other round.
Add the Unseelie Fey template.
Pick up the Feathered Wings graft before taking VoP. The text for grafts says:
A graft is not a magic item... it is very hard, if not impossible, to salvage as treasure. Altogether, this suggests that a graft is not a 'possession' in a the sense that you do not regard your hand as a possession, so it should not trigger the 'possession' clause of VoP. The reason to take feathered wings before VoP is because you may have to pay to acquire the graft. It should be affordable before L8 and the appropriate diamond mind maneuver would make the will save for fiendish grafts routinely passed, so VoP at level 9 or 12 seems reasonable.

[Thurbane]

Excellent workarounds.

There might be some Exalted issues with having the wings of a Devil stapled to you (if you are non-evil, don't you need to keep making some kind of save?).

Unseelie Fey also has some alignment incompatibility (Alignment: always evil), but I guess you can be rebelling against your ancestry and try to be the goodest of the good. If you strictly follow the tables, you may not end up with wings, either.

I must admit, I LOLd thinking about what kind of ancestry an anthropomorphic whale that is part fey might have; then I remembered Ocean Strider.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/d/d6/Ocean_strider.jpg

...not sure where the wings would come from, maybe just a mutation.

[Anthrowhale]

There might be some Exalted issues with having the wings of a Devil stapled to you

This seems less difficult than a Succubus being a Paladin.


(if you are non-evil, don't you need to keep making some kind of save?).

Yeah, that's where moment of perfect mind comes into play.


If you strictly follow the tables, you may not end up with wings, either.

The text says "...select the wings or roll randomly..." so you could choose to select instead.


... then I remembered Ocean Strider.

An unseelie fey anthro orca that missed the wings on a random role fits quite well.

[pabelfly]

If you want flight, why not get the Winged Creature template? For 2 LA, you get +4 DEX and +2 WIS, and depending on your DEX score, you could get perfect flight at your land speed +20 fleet. Not a bad deal IMO.

[Particle_Man]

Late to the party but since sickle is a simple tripping weapon you could try a horizon tripper build.

[Darg]

Silverbrow Human

Starting Abilities: 14/14/14/8/14/15

1-Monk: Dragon Wings, Stunning Fist, Sacred Vow
2-Monk: Deflect Arrows
3-Fighter: Great Fortitude, Power Attack
4-Fighter: Superior unarmed Strike
5-Fist of the Forest:
6-Fighter: Vow of Poverty, Nymph's kiss
7- Fighter: Versatile Unarmed Strike
8-Monk: Touch of Golden Ice
9-Monk: Improved Dragon Wings
10-Monk: Nimbus of Light
11-Monk: Improved Disarm
12-Monk: Lion Tribe Warrior, Radiance of Light
13-Monk:
14-Monk: Sanctify Natural Attack
15-Monk: Improved Natural Attack
16-Fist of the Forest: Sanctify Ki Strike
17-Fist of the Forest:
18-Monk: Snap Kick, Gift of Faith
19-Monk:
20-Ranger: Animal Friend

End abilities: 26/16/20/9/18/15
HD: 13d8 + 7d10 + 100
BAB+FoB: +17/+17/+17/+12/+7/+2
Damage: Unarmed Strike 4d8 + 13 (double on a dive and by level 12 can full attack on a dive)
AC: 38

Gave it a shot with dragon wings. Have to say, eating 4 feats and pumping Cha to actually take exalted feats I can use is rough. Are feats from OA or S&F legal for this?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Warforged, Dragonborn of Bahamut (heart aspect), Crusader, Dragonscale Husk ACF, Dragon Wings feat at 1st level, Entangling Exhalation at 3rd, Improved Dragon Wings at 6th, Extra Granted Maneuver at 9th.

I don't see any way of using a shield without violating VoP, as it's considered a martial weapon. Maybe if you had a warforged component and thus part of your person, or a piece of worthless scrap wood that's used as a shield, it could work. However, I'd prefer the character to have literally no material possessions at all.

Dragonborn removes the Warforged slam attack, which is a bummer. That adds 1.5x Str to damage and can be used to deliver your standard action martial strikes. However, lacking a shield he can just use a spear or quarterstaff two-handed for the same amount of damage, but I'd prefer the character to have literally no material possessions at all.

So that gets a better base AC than the exalted armor bonus of VoP by two points, and significantly better energy resistances (except sonic) from 5th level thanks to Dragonscale Husk. It gets natural flight, something mundane characters would otherwise be relying on magic items for. It gets a breath attack with entangling exhalation to debuff and damage opponents and make them less capable of bypassing this character to attack softer targets. It's extremely tanky and can heal itself quite well.

An improvement would be to go Crusader 5/ Binder 1/ Hellreaver 5/ Crusader 9, and always bind Naberius for fast ability healing to offset the Hellreaver 5 class feature.

[loky1109]

I don't see any way of using a shield without violating VoP, as it's considered a martial weapon.

Backler and tower sheid isn't .

[Thurbane]

Backler and tower sheid isn't .

Unfortunately they also are not considered simple weapons. You might argue that they could be used as improvised weapons, but they still technically are not simple weapons, and the feat is quite specific:


You may carry and use ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) simple weapons, usually just a quarterstaff that serves as a walking stick. You may wear simple clothes (usually just a homespun robe, possibly also including a hat and sandals) with no magical properties. You may carry enough food to sustain you for one day in a simple (nonmagic) sack or bag. You may carry and use a spell component pouch.

Also, apologies to Soranar on my earlier reply: the feat does seem to allow multiple simple weapons, by a strict reading.

[Twurps]

So, just wondering, purely as a thought exercise: is it possible to make a workable Vow of Poverty build using mundane classes? By workable, I mean something that could actually function in a regular party without being a dead weight.

.......

For this challenge, I would consider initiators as mundane (although steering clear of Su manoeuvres and stances would be more in the spirit of things), as well as classes that get a small handful of Su abilities or SLAs.



Just wanted to point out that VOP itself is (su) (and so are all exalted feats gained from it). So while I like the challenge, the resulting build will always be heavily depending on (su) abilities anyway.

[Thurbane]

Just wanted to point out that VOP itself is (su) (and so are all exalted feats gained from it). So while I like the challenge, the resulting build will always be heavily depending on (su) abilities anyway.

Good to know.

[loky1109]

Unfortunately they also are not considered simple weapons. You might argue that they could be used as improvised weapons, but they still technically are not simple weapons, and the feat is quite specific:

Also, apologies to Soranar on my earlier reply: the feat does seem to allow multiple simple weapons, by a strict reading.

Of course they aren't weapons. You thing this list is closed?

[Anthrowhale]

Of course they aren't weapons. You thing this list is closed?

VoP closes all material possessions by default, then carves out an exception for simple weapons.

[loky1109]

VoP closes all material possessions by default, then carves out an exception for simple weapons.

Ok.
Drunken Master + table.
Soulknife + Shield of Thought.

[Vaern]

Just wanted to point out that VOP itself is (su) (and so are all exalted feats gained from it). So while I like the challenge, the resulting build will always be heavily depending on (su) abilities anyway.

Oh, cool. So you can own and use expensive tools and equipment as long as you're within the effects of an antimagic field.

[Maat Mons]

I'll try my hand at crafting a living stereotype celestial charger pious martial voluptuous valkyrie.

https://images2.imgbox.com/8c/2f/pTiUwSZC_o.jpg

Race
Lesser Aasimar (Player’s Guide to Faerun, p191)

Classes
Barbarian 1 / Paladin 4 / Fighter 2 / ??? 13

Variants
Spirit Lion totem (Complete Champion, p46)
Holy Warrior (Complete Champion, p49)
Paladin of Freedom (Unearthed Arcana, p53)
Aura of Sanctity (Dragon 349, p93)

Feats
1: Sacred Vow (Book of Exalted Deeds, p45)
3: Vow of Poverty (Book of Exalted deeds, p48)
Pal 4: Power Attack
6: Celestial Bloodline (Races of Faerun, p162)
Fight 1: Improved Bull Rush
Fight 2: Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior, p112)
9: Outsider Wings (Races of Faerun, p167)
12: Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer, p110)
15: ???
18: ???

Possessions
Clothing
Spear

Not really sure where to go from there. Are there any good martial PrCs to aim for? Or maybe Crusader 13? (If you ignore multiclass xp penalties.)

[Thurbane]

Ok.
Drunken Master + table.
Soulknife + Shield of Thought.

I'm sorry that you seem to have taken my reply personally, I was just pointing out the limits of what the feat lays down.

For the Drunken Master/table: not a simple weapon either (and the drunken master ability does not change it's classification), and not listed in the exceptions allowed in the feat. In the spirit of VoP, I feel you'd be allowed to pick one up and use it for one combat, maybe, but not keep it with you. Also, if you're talking about use as a shield, there nothing I'm aware of that allows improvised weapons to be used as shields. Cover, maybe.

Soulknife and Shield of Thought would work with VoP; however, Soulknife would not work for the challenge I have set, as they aren't a mundane class.

I'll try my hand at crafting a living stereotype celestial charger pious martial voluptuous valkyrie.

https://images2.imgbox.com/8c/2f/pTiUwSZC_o.jpg

Race
Lesser Aasimar (Player’s Guide to Faerun, p191)

Classes
Barbarian 1 / Paladin 4 / Fighter 2 / ??? 13

Variants
Spirit Lion totem (Complete Champion, p46)
Holy Warrior (Complete Champion, p49)
Paladin of Freedom (Unearthed Arcana, p53)
Aura of Sanctity (Dragon 349, p93)

Feats
1: Sacred Vow (Book of Exalted Deeds, p45)
3: Vow of Poverty (Book of Exalted deeds, p48)
Pal 4: Power Attack
6: Celestial Bloodline (Races of Faerun, p162)
Fight 1: Improved Bull Rush
Fight 2: Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior, p112)
9: Outsider Wings (Races of Faerun, p167)
12: Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer, p110)
15: ???
18: ???

Possessions
Clothing
Spear

Not really sure where to go from there. Are there any good martial PrCs to aim for? Or maybe Crusader 13? (If you ignore multiclass xp penalties.)

Lesser Aasimar + Outsider Wings is a great way to get flight. And Aasimar get nice ability boosts.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How well would a VoP divine minion martial chaos monk/rogue/pounce barbarian/unarmed swordsage/master of many forms/warshaper build conform to what you want? Most of your utility will come from being to change forms into any monster you want, which is definitely a magical ability, but you rely on your body's ability to shape itself into what you want for pretty much everything. And no equipment will really be needed, assuming your DM isn't insane and instead houserules that you can use items without owning them. Otherwise, you can't open doors, enter buildings, read signs, look at statues or paintings, disarm (or even set off) traps, etc. You should also be able to use items on others' behalves, else you break your vow by keeping others from bleeding out and dying, which makes your character come across a selfish jerk by holding your vows over others' lives.

You can certainly contribute in a number of ways, especially if you have high mental scores and lots of skill points to be a pretty good skillmonkey.

[Thurbane]

How well would a VoP divine minion martial monk/unarmed swordsage/master of many forms/warshaper build conform to what you want? Most of your utility will come from being to change forms into any monster you want, which is definitely a magical ability, but you rely on your body's ability to shape itself into what you want for pretty much everything. And no equipment will really be needed, assuming your DM isn't insane and instead houserules that you can use items without owning them. Otherwise, you can't open doors, enter buildings, read signs, look at statues or paintings, disarm (or even set off) traps, etc.

You can certainly contribute in a number of ways, especially if you have high mental scores and lots of skill points to be a pretty good skillmonkey.

Borderline, but interesting. Warshaper is primarily Su abilities. Also, can you enter MoMF with Divine Minion?


Special: Wild shape class feature.

Underlining mine.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Borderline, but interesting. Warshaper is primarily Su abilities. Also, can you enter MoMF with Divine Minion?It does say "as an 11th level druid." Meaning you get the druid's class feature as a racial ability. You could always go with wild shape ranger, I guess.

And I wouldn't say "No Su abilities," myself. After all, you wouldn't be able to use most classes, since most classes have Su abilities, like monks. Also, a lot of races have them, as well. So long as they don't come across as spells, it should be fine, I think?

[Morphic tide]

An Anthropomorphic Eagle is 2 RHD and LA +1 with +2 Str/Dex/Con, +6 Wis, and +1 Natural Armor. There exists a strain of thought that one can trade the Barbarian's Rage for Favored Enemy and the Archery combat style, then trade the combat style for Wild Shape and Barbarian fast movement, then trade the Wild Shape and your Armor and Shield proficiencies for Monk AC and Fast Movement plus Favored Enemy, Swift Tracker, and Track from Ranger.

Doing that, you have a Medium-sized "Barbarian" who has a 50 ft. (Poor) Fly speed and picks up some Enhancement bonus later on, two sets of Favored Enemy with one starting with all Arcane spellcasters, Wisdom to AC with a few extra plusses eventually, as well as Swift Tracker and Track. This would be a total of 10 Favored Enemy instances, making it just barely possible to have Favored Enemy against all Humanoids! At +4 each, if one so chooses.

Alternatively, Ranger trading out spellcasting for Champion of the Wild, Combat Styles for Wild Shape to trade for an instance of Barbarian fast movement to turn into Spirit Lion Totem and trading in the Wild Shape for Wis to AC and fast movement, giving you the tools to be an odd battlefield control supercharger since you'll have four Bonus Feats that are pretty harshly limited to combat maneuver stuff since you don't have a Combat Style. Trade out Wild Empathy for half level to a bundle of things, including Spot, Listen, and Survival.

In any case, I'd go for Str 18/Dex 16/Con 16/Int 12/Wis 20/Cha 8 in 32 point-buy, counting the racial bonuses. That's AC 24 at 4th level, and +10 to attack rolls. Get ready to Ubercharge one way or another, you have the scores for it. Intuitive Attack's worthwhile to make Wisdom fully your primary score, and then you can get Stigmata for a touch of party-help and sustain (it is, oddly enough, a net gain even for yourself if you've taken appreciable damage). Then Sanctify Martial Strike with your Simple Two-Handed weapon, and... Then just pile picks of Nemesis, really? Gift of Discernment and Vow of Obedience directly to some Celestials if you want to have maximum protection against losing it.

Vow of Poverty is mostly let down by Exalted feats being terrible. Such incredibly strict rules, explicitly including losing it to literal mind control so your build is shut off completely by failing a single Will save, and yet nearly all of them are situational and second-rate at best. And the one that softens Compulsions requires you to utterly and unquestioningly obey an NPC organization!

[Thurbane]

It does say "as an 11th level druid." Meaning you get the druid's class feature as a racial ability. You could always go with wild shape ranger, I guess.

Questionable, but maybe. I know it wouldn't fly at my table.


And I wouldn't say "No Su abilities," myself. After all, you wouldn't be able to use most classes, since most classes have Su abilities, like monks. Also, a lot of races have them, as well. So long as they don't come across as spells, it should be fine, I think?

I did my best to spell it out in the OP. I never said no Su abilities, FWIW.

Monk does get some Su abilities, yes. Five over twenty levels (if I'm reading it right), compared to a significantly higher number of Ex abilities along the way. Warshaper gets five Su abilities in five levels, and a grand total of one Ex ability.

End of the day, my challenge, my rules, but thanks for the feedback.


An Anthropomorphic Eagle is 2 RHD and LA +1 with +2 Str/Dex/Con, +6 Wis, and +1 Natural Armor. There exists a strain of thought that one can trade the Barbarian's Rage for Favored Enemy and the Archery combat style, then trade the combat style for Wild Shape and Barbarian fast movement, then trade the Wild Shape and your Armor and Shield proficiencies for Monk AC and Fast Movement plus Favored Enemy, Swift Tracker, and Track from Ranger.

Doing that, you have a Medium-sized "Barbarian" who has a 50 ft. (Poor) Fly speed and picks up some Enhancement bonus later on, two sets of Favored Enemy with one starting with all Arcane spellcasters, Wisdom to AC with a few extra plusses eventually, as well as Swift Tracker and Track. This would be a total of 10 Favored Enemy instances, making it just barely possible to have Favored Enemy against all Humanoids! At +4 each, if one so chooses.

Alternatively, Ranger trading out spellcasting for Champion of the Wild, Combat Styles for Wild Shape to trade for an instance of Barbarian fast movement to turn into Spirit Lion Totem and trading in the Wild Shape for Wis to AC and fast movement, giving you the tools to be an odd battlefield control supercharger since you'll have four Bonus Feats that are pretty harshly limited to combat maneuver stuff since you don't have a Combat Style. Trade out Wild Empathy for half level to a bundle of things, including Spot, Listen, and Survival.

In any case, I'd go for Str 18/Dex 16/Con 16/Int 12/Wis 20/Cha 8 in 32 point-buy, counting the racial bonuses. That's AC 24 at 4th level, and +10 to attack rolls. Get ready to Ubercharge one way or another, you have the scores for it. Intuitive Attack's worthwhile to make Wisdom fully your primary score, and then you can get Stigmata for a touch of party-help and sustain (it is, oddly enough, a net gain even for yourself if you've taken appreciable damage). Then Sanctify Martial Strike with your Simple Two-Handed weapon, and... Then just pile picks of Nemesis, really? Gift of Discernment and Vow of Obedience directly to some Celestials if you want to have maximum protection against losing it.

Vow of Poverty is mostly let down by Exalted feats being terrible. Such incredibly strict rules, explicitly including losing it to literal mind control so your build is shut off completely by failing a single Will save, and yet nearly all of them are situational and second-rate at best. And the one that softens Compulsions requires you to utterly and unquestioningly obey an NPC organization!

Interesting. And yes, the bonus Exalted feats really aren't great. You tend to run out of useful ones very early.

[Darg]

Rangers and Paladins above 3rd count as casters, unless they take one of the ACFs where they trade away their casting ability.

Soulknife and Shield of Thought would work with VoP; however, Soulknife would not work for the challenge I have set, as they aren't a mundane class.

Soulknife has 7 Su and 2 Ex abilities.
Paladin has 5 Su, 3 Sp, and 2 Ex abilities.

I don't see why soulknife wouldn't work, but a paladin does. Neither casts/manifests.

[Thurbane]

Soulknife has 7 Su and 2 Ex abilities.
Paladin has 5 Su, 3 Sp, and 2 Ex abilities.

I don't see why soulknife wouldn't work, but a paladin does. Neither casts/manifests.

Look, honestly I'm not all that familiar with psionics. Having said that, sorry if I sound like a jerk, but my contest, my rules.

I'm not categorizing someone whose main schtick is to materialize a blade of mental energy (an Su ability) as mundane for this challenge.

[Darg]

Look, honestly I'm not all that familiar with psionics. Having said that, sorry if I sound like a jerk, but my contest, my rules.

I'm not categorizing someone whose main schtick is to materialize a blade of mental energy (an Su ability) as mundane for this challenge.

No it's fine. I'm just trying to get a grasp on the boundaries.


Vow of Poverty is mostly let down by Exalted feats being terrible. Such incredibly strict rules, explicitly including losing it to literal mind control so your build is shut off completely by failing a single Will save, and yet nearly all of them are situational and second-rate at best. And the one that softens Compulsions requires you to utterly and unquestioningly obey an NPC organization!

This is probably the biggest problem. Retraining FTW!

Sounds like a class with an always on protection from x ability would be good to have.

[pabelfly]

Human. Scout 4/Ranger 14/Stalker of Kharash 2

Weapon: Light Crossbow

Ranger 1: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Track, Nymph’s Kiss. Favored Enemy: Arcane.
Scout 1: Intuitive Attack. Skirmish (1d6).
Scout 2: Alertness.
Scout 3: Favored of the Companions. Skirmish (1d6 + 1AC)
Scout 4: Swift Hunter. Favored Enemy (Undead).
Stalker of Kharash 1: Hand Crossbow Focus, Nemesis (Arcane)
Stalker of Kharash 2: Favored Enemy: Evil.
Ranger 2: Rapid Shot, Nemesis (Evil). Skirmish (2d6 + 1AC)
Ranger 3: Endurance. Feat: Extra Favored Enemy (Ooze). Skirmish (3d6 + 2AC).
Ranger 4: Exalted Companion. Improved Favored Enemy. Skirmish (2d6 + 2AC)
Ranger 5:
Ranger 6: Manyshot, Natural Bond, Nemesis (Undead). Favored Enemy (Construct).
Ranger 7:
Ranger 8: Improved Rapid Shot, Improved Skirmish, Nemesis (Ooze). Skirmish (3d6 + 3AC)
Ranger 9: Feat: Extra Favored Enemy (Plant). Nemesis (Plant)
Ranger 10: Nemesis (Construct). Skirmish (4d6 + 3AC)
Ranger 11: Point Blank Shot, Favored Enemy (Elemental).
Ranger 12: Extra Favored Enemy: (Dragon), Nemesis (Elemental). Skirmish (4d6 + 4AC)
Ranger 13:
Ranger 14: Nemesis (Dragon), Precise Shot. Skirmish (5d6 + 4AC)

Damage (presuming skirmish):
Arcane, Evil, Undead, Oozes, Constructs, Plants, Elemental, Dragon: 6d6 + 3 (Improved Favored Enemy) + 5 (Exalted Strike) + Favored Enemy bonus (and an extra +2d6 if you move 20ft instead of 10ft). This is per hit.
Any other enemy: skirmish (5d6 if you move 10ft, or 7d6 if you move 20ft) + 5 (Exalted Strike)

Notes:
- We actually need all of the Exalted feat bonuses - Nymph's Kiss, Intuitive Attack, Favored of the Companions, and eight Nemesis feats
- Nemesis (Dragon) can replaced with any enemy specific to a game/campaign
- The feat “Extra Favored Enemy” advances under 3.0 rules (a DM might reinterpret this under 3.5 rules), but in any case, the main point of this is to bypass skirmish immunity and also add Nemesis bonus damage to enemies we'd normally have trouble with.
- Extra animal companion options, and animal companion is boosted.
- If Dragon Magazine is allowed, Solitary Hunter uses Favored Enemy bonuses to boost attack rolls in place of the animal companion and is worth considering in a full martial build. I think this is a reasonable, but not overpowered trade

[Particle_Man]

Do rocks count as ok for VoP? Because stone giants are great at throwing rocks.

[Thurbane]

I like the look of that pabelfly, well done! :smallsmile:

I've been wondering about simple weapons, what else you can you utilise without breaking the wording of the VoP feat.


You may carry and use ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) simple weapons, usually just a quarterstaff that serves as a walking stick.

Special materials are neither magic nor masterwork, but I feel that they are not "ordinary" either.

Other simple weapons outside of the PHB/SRD that I know of: Blowgun (OA), Dagger, disguised (DMC), Flute, steel (SoS), Muspelrule (PlH), Poison ring (DMC), Sickle, heavy (PlH) and Fauchard (DMC).

Blowgun and poison ring open up interesting ideas, to use poison ravages, but ravages would still break VoP. You're allowed to drink a potion if a friend gives it to you, maybe you can dip your weapon in a ravage if the ravage belongs to a friend?


You may wear simple clothes (usually just a homespun robe, possibly also including a hat and sandals) with no magical properties.

Are there any materials with alchemical or special qualities that aren't magical, as this part of the feat doesn't say "ordinary".

I feel like I've gone off on a tangent now, sorry for my ramblings.


Do rocks count as ok for VoP? Because stone giants are great at throwing rocks.

That's an interesting one. I don't know that they are called out as simple anywhere, so may be a RAW vs RAI thing. Slings are weapons that can use stones as weapons, so...maybe?

[Silly Name]

Special materials are neither magic nor masterwork, but I feel that they are not "ordinary" either.

A lot of entries regarding special materials specify that any item made with them are always masterwork. I'm not gonna say "all" because right in Core there's cold iron and alchemical silver, who aren't called out as automatically masterwork.


That's an interesting one. I don't know that they are called out as simple anywhere, so may be a RAW vs RAI thing. Slings are weapons that can use stones as weapons, so...maybe?

The "fluff" of the Rock Throwing ability is that you pick up a large rock from the ground (or tear out a chunk of stone). Unless we're gonna rule that throwing pebbles breaks VoP, I feel giants with VoP should still get to throw rocks since they're just nonmagical stuff they pick up and toss at their enemy.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The "fluff" of the Rock Throwing ability is that you pick up a large rock from the ground (or tear out a chunk of stone). Unless we're gonna rule that throwing pebbles breaks VoP, I feel giants with VoP should still get to throw rocks since they're just nonmagical stuff they pick up and toss at their enemy.Unfortunately, VoP is stupid and has a very specific list of very specific items you're allowed to use. Anything not on the list breaks VoP, to the point where opening a door or entering a building breaks it. Picking up a rock does, as well, unless it's sling ammo, and that only because slings are simple weapons, which are allowed. And rocks used by giants are not called out as simple weapons.

[redking]

Unfortunately, VoP is stupid and has a very specific list of very specific items you're allowed to use. Anything not on the list breaks VoP, to the point where opening a door or entering a building breaks it. Picking up a rock does, as well, unless it's sling ammo, and that only because slings are simple weapons, which are allowed. And rocks used by giants are not called out as simple weapons.

Vow of Stupidity.

Jack: Francis, I heard that you broke your vow of poverty.
Francis: I did indeed. I picked up a rock and used it as a weapon.
Jack: Ah! Done in by throwing the rock rather than using a sling! That gets us all the time.
Francis: No. I used a sling. Little did I know the rock had a diamond encased in it. Now I've lost my powers and I haven't had a meal in 20 years. I'm starving.

[Anthrowhale]

Unfortunately, VoP is stupid and has a very specific list of very specific items you're allowed to use. Anything not on the list breaks VoP, to the point where opening a door or entering a building breaks it. Picking up a rock does, as well, unless it's sling ammo, and that only because slings are simple weapons, which are allowed. And rocks used by giants are not called out as simple weapons.

If you pick up an object is it necessarily a 'possession'? That doesn't seem to be the normal usage of the term in the sense that I sometimes pick up things in daily life that we would not consider an assertion of possession (i.e. trash, something that I take to lost & found, rocks immediately thrown as skippers, etc...).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you pick up an object is it necessarily a 'possession'? That doesn't seem to be the normal usage of the term in the sense that I sometimes pick up things in daily life that we would not consider an assertion of possession (i.e. trash, something that I take to lost & found, rocks immediately thrown as skippers, etc...).If you're holding or carrying something, it is in your possession, and you possess it for as long as it's on your person. The feat even says you're only allowed to "carry and use" and "wear" things in the list. So owning, possessing, wearing, carrying, and using all have the same stipulations. So no, you're not allowed to take out garbage, wash dishes except for the ones you're specifically allowed, carry a non-approved item to the lost and found, or pick up a rock to throw it (sling stones excepted).

Stupidly, you're allowed to carry and use a spell component pouch but not spell components. :smallannoyed:

[Vaern]

Stupidly, you're allowed to carry and use a spell component pouch but not spell components. :smallannoyed:
But the spell components are included in the description of the pouch, so I'd assume that they're included as part of the pouch.

Also, you might be able to throw rocks if you happen to be a kobold. I recall Races if the Dragons mentioning that they can survive by eating almost literally anything including dirt, so a rock picked up off the ground might be considered a day's worth of food.

[Darg]

A spell component pouch breaks the one days amount of food clause.

Vow of Poverty just requires use of "don't be a jerk" common sense rule. Being too RAW breaks any kind RAW ethos too easily. Take paladin for example. It's too easy to say that the paladin breaks their code. It's harder to say they actually don't.

[rrwoods]

I think that if we're in the context of making a "mundane VoP build", we're in at-the-table territory and therefore assuming a reasonable (rather than strict) interpretation of VoP. That said, it might help to agree on what interpretation of VoP we're operating under.

[Thurbane]

A certain amount of RAI is required for VoP to function, I believe.

You are explicitly allowed to carry and use nonmagic nonmasterwork simple weapons (plural), simple clothes, a days worth of food in a nonmagic bag or sack, and a spell component pouch (which, by default, come with components inside IMHO).

People can use magic items on your behalf, including allowing you to drink a potion someone gives to you.

If you are allowed to consume a magic potion that someone gives you, surely in any sane reading, you are allowed fleeting contact with a door handle so as to not have to sit meowing forlornly at every closed door you get to.

I would personally extend this to picking up rocks of the ground to use in combat. What kind of madness allows for carrying sling stones (or even refined sling bullets, or a crossbow and bolts for crying out loud), but not any other form of rock??

Let's assume, for the sake of expediency, that this challenge includes a somewhat "common sense" approach to enforcing VoP rules. Can you cheese it a little? Sure! Are you going to lose the feat for opening a door? No.

[Twurps]

A certain amount of RAI is required for VoP to function, I believe.

You are explicitly allowed to carry and use nonmagic nonmasterwork simple weapons (plural), simple clothes, a days worth of food in a nonmagic bag or sack, and a spell component pouch (which, by default, come with components inside IMHO).

People can use magic items on your behalf, including allowing you to drink a potion someone gives to you.

If you are allowed to consume a magic potion that someone gives you, surely in any sane reading, you are allowed fleeting contact with a door handle so as to not have to sit meowing forlornly at every closed door you get to.

I would personally extend this to picking up rocks of the ground to use in combat. What kind of madness allows for carrying sling stones (or even refined sling bullets, or a crossbow and bolts for crying out loud), but not any other form of rock??

Let's assume, for the sake of expediency, that this challenge includes a somewhat "common sense" approach to enforcing VoP rules. Can you cheese it a little? Sure! Are you going to lose the feat for opening a door? No.

Anybody with any kind of experience with real world public restrooms knows one does not need to hold a door handle to open a door anyway!
Joking aside: this seems like a workable solution. And for those interested in the RAW discussion. I've started this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?634368-VoP-and-doorhandles). Back on topic: I fully intend to submit a decent build, but I'm shocked at how much (su) stuff all my ideas end up with.

[Particle_Man]

Ok in that case I submit a stone giant with 2 levels of monk (for improved grapple and deflect arrows). Sad to lose the use of a family heirloom greatclub, but at least they have rocks, kicks, and maybe a large long spear, the only simple reach weapon). That is pretty good and quite mundane and can be done with core plus BOED.

Edit: that said the brutal throw feat from complete adventurer is too good to pass up. And speaking of feats, far shot can make a stone giant’s rocks go a long way. So point blank shot needed for that. Might as well have power attack, power throw, quick draw and hurling charge. I think that covers the non-VoP feats. He needs a flaw though. Vulnerable, perhaps?

[Maat Mons]

I like Thurbane's suggestion of a character who sits meowing forlornly at closed doors. That should be explored further. A tibbit who never assumes humanoid form seems the way to go. You could maybe do it with a hengeyokai, but think that race should be reserved for a Holy Carp build.

[Soranar]

I think I went about this the wrong way

There's more to DnD than what you contribute to a fight

With that in mind

Race: Changeling
Alignment: any good
Template: Dragonborn of bahamut (for wings though your mount could provide that so you can skip it)

Alternate class features and substitution levels

Rogue
- social intuition

Level 1 Rogue Wild cohort (very useful bodyguard that you can boost with your auras)
Level 2 Marshal
Level 3 Marshal Skill focus: bluff
Level 4 Marshal
Level 5 Marshal
Level 6 Charlatan Knowledge devotion (Marshal has all knowledge skills, so will exemplar) or craven
Level 7 Charlatan
Level 8 Charlatan
Level 9 Charlatan Craven or knowledge devotion
Level 10 Charlatan
Level 11+ Exemplar
Level 12 Quick draw
Level 15 TWF
Level 18 ITWF

Ok so this is a counterintuitive build, it's a mundane class optimized for diplomancy and bluff (CHA is your main stat)

Social rogue means you can take 10 on all social skills and you start with 10x4 skillpoints
Charlatan makes you a pseudo EX caster
Wild cohort grants you a warrior mount that you ride everywhere
Marshal lets you motivate Charisma (minor aura) + 1 major aura to boost your allies
Exemplar gives you all skills (so Iaijutsu focus is fair game) and you can take 10 on it with the exemplar ability, same with the knowledge skills)
You can throw daggers to trigger iaijutsu focus due to wonky writing of the skill
Craven gives you some kind of bonus damage to let you pull your weight for a bit, marshal lets you grant move actions to other more combat oriented classes

Just about all of your abilities are EX

Your damage is not spectacular but your skills give you enough versatility to help out in most encounters and, since you take 10 on everything, nothing is up to chance.

[pabelfly]

I think I went about this the wrong way

There's more to DnD than what you contribute to a fight

With that in mind

Race: Changeling
Alignment: any good
Template: Dragonborn of bahamut (for wings though your mount could provide that so you can skip it)

Alternate class features and substitution levels

Rogue
- social intuition

Level 1 Rogue Wild cohort (very useful bodyguard that you can boost with your auras)
Level 2 Marshal
Level 3 Marshal Skill focus: bluff
Level 4 Marshal
Level 5 Marshal
Level 6 Charlatan Knowledge devotion (Marshal has all knowledge skills, so will exemplar) or craven
Level 7 Charlatan
Level 8 Charlatan
Level 9 Charlatan Craven or knowledge devotion
Level 10 Charlatan
Level 11+ Exemplar
Level 12 Quick draw
Level 15 TWF
Level 18 ITWF

Ok so this is a counterintuitive build, it's a mundane class optimized for diplomancy and bluff (CHA is your main stat)

Social rogue means you can take 10 on all social skills and you start with 10x4 skillpoints
Charlatan makes you a pseudo EX caster
Wild cohort grants you a warrior mount that you ride everywhere
Marshal lets you motivate Charisma (minor aura) + 1 major aura to boost your allies
Exemplar gives you all skills (so Iaijutsu focus is fair game) and you can take 10 on it with the exemplar ability, same with the knowledge skills)
You can throw daggers to trigger iaijutsu focus due to wonky writing of the skill
Craven gives you some kind of bonus damage to let you pull your weight for a bit, marshal lets you grant move actions to other more combat oriented classes

Just about all of your abilities are EX

Your damage is not spectacular but your skills give you enough versatility to help out in most encounters and, since you take 10 on everything, nothing is up to chance.

So where's Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, and the exalted feats?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

<snip>Just remember that you lose all of your changeling abilities. Changeling racial ACFs are some of the best out there, but you'll completely lose your racial abilities.

[Soranar]

So where's Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, and the exalted feats?

Right, I forgot the feat tax for vow of poverty

I guess I can remove craven and trade sneak attack for a feat (martial rogue) , there aren't that many useful sacred feats except nymph's kiss and vow of nonviolence, you wisdom isn't that high so intuitive strike won't help much either.

knowledge devotion + iaijutsu focus will have to be enough, you can use skill tricks to trigger iaijutsu focus too

ideally you take flaws to count for VOP (though playing VOP is already a huge debuff)

[Soranar]

Just remember that you lose all of your changeling abilities. Changeling racial ACFs are some of the best out there, but you'll completely lose your racial abilities.

I know but the flight thing is a must and, even with a flying wild cohort mount, it's risky not to be able to fly at all

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You don't have to take incarnum classes to make use of soulmelds so long as you've got enough feats to burn.

[Thurbane]

Stumbled across something while looking for something else entirely.

Bad news for VoP giants, I am afraid (at least by strict RAW):


Normal
As an improvised weapon, a 40- to 50-pound rock deals 2d6 points of damage with a range increment of 5 feet, and such a rock can be thrown only as a full-round action.

So technically, rocks are not simple weapons.

[edit] Also, another thing I just found. CW p.158 has more details on improvised weapons.


Also, if you're talking about use as a shield, there nothing I'm aware of that allows improvised weapons to be used as shields. Cover, maybe.

One of the things it includes is as follows:


Defense: Objects with lots of surface area (such as tables) grant you a +2 shield bonus to Armor Class (or a +4 shield bonus to AC if you use the total defense action), but require two hands to use.

So apologies to loky1109.