Best way to build a sorcadin that doesn't involve a race with a feat at level 1?

[Klorox]

I want to go vengeance and shadow.



I'm thinking half elf, but I'm not 100% sure.



Point buy, starting at level 1.



Also, do I go with a greatsword to avoid having to worry about warcaster as much (at least until my first ASI)?

[KorvinStarmast]

Sorcadin Half Elf. Yep. I'd start with Paladin to make sure you get the Heavy Armor proficiency.

Also, do I go with a greatsword to avoid having to worry about warcaster as much (at least until my first ASI)?
How often to you want to get hit?

[Gignere]

At level 1, if you start as Paladin you really don’t need to decide on using a two hander or a one hander with shield.

Since until you get your sorcerer levels you shouldn’t have a problem with needing a free hand to cast.

Whether you use S&B or a two hander really depends on if you are the sole tank or not at the very early levels, hell at level 1 it’s probably best to use a shield because level 1 characters are fragile even with a d10 hit dice.

[RogueJK]

When building a Sorcadin, some general guidelines:

- First, decide whether you want Heavy Armor and slightly more HP, or CON save proficiency (for better Concentration) and earlier Sorcerer spell access. That will dictate your starting class. Starting Paladin is generally better in most situations, especially for a STR-based Sorcadin. But Sorcerer is a decent option for something like a DEX-based Sorcadin that won't be wearing Heavy Armor anyway (provided you can also spare the 13 STR for Paladin multiclassing requirements).

- Next, decide whether you want more Sorcerer spellcasting, or Paladin subclass abilities plus Extra Attack and Aura of Protection. That will dictate whether you stop at 2 levels of Paladin, or 6 levels. Nearly all Sorcadins will be either 2/X or 6/X. 2/X Sorcadins will be more spellcasters than melee fighters, and rely on the SCAGtrips to boost their single melee attacks, supplemented by the occasional Quickened SCAGtrip for a second attack. 6/X Sorcadins will be better melee fighters, have more Paladin goodies, and will have additional opportunities to smite.

- Then, decide which weapon you want to wield. Sword and Board (or Axe/Board or Hammer/Board) for extra AC, Greatsword (potentially with GWM) for the most damage, Glaive/Halberd + PAM for a third attack, Spear and Shield + PAM for a third attack and extra AC, etc. In general, 2/X Sorcadins will usually want to stick to a non-PAM option. But Paladin 6/Sorcerer X Sorcadins can benefit greatly from PAM. Vengeance Paladins can afford to go the GWM route more than others, due to their ability to easily generate Advantage to help counteract the -5.

Picking a weapon type will also help dictate which Fighting Style you're going to take at Paladin 2. Usually Dueling or Defense for 1H Weapon + Shield, and Great Weapon or Defense for Greatsword or 2H Polearm. It also helps guide ASI/Feat options, with Warcaster being more important for someone with a 1H weapon and shield, or PAM being needed for a Polearm or Spear wielder. (However, builds that require Warcaster or PAM generally benefit greatly from taking that as the Level 1 ASI, so are less viable for non-VHuman/CLineage races.)


Further tips:

- Unlike most other casters, 6/X Sorcadins generally don't really need the boost to Concentration from either Warcaster or Resilient CON. Bless will usually be your go-to Concentration option throughout much of your early career, and it helps with Concentration checks while you're Concentrating on it. Then starting at Paladin 6, the bonus from Aura of Protection will further bolster your Concentration. However, Warcaster's ability to make Booming Blade Opportunity Attacks can be useful, especially on a PAM Sorcadin who can make OAs when the enemy approaches you. And if you're using a 1H Weapon and Shield, you'll likely need Warcaster to be able to cast Sorcerer spells with both hands full, unless your DM is one of those who just handwaves that aspect.

- Consider whether you want/need to dip Hexblade 1 for CHA-based attacks. This is usually done at 1st level, but doesn't have to be if you have a high enough STR (16ish) to wait for a few levels. This can help the build be less MAD, but also delays your Paladin/Sorcerer stuff by a level, and some folks consider it a cheesy move. It also locks you into 1H weapons only, so no 2H GWM/PAM builds possible with just 1 level of Hexblade.

- Even if you're going 6/X, consider taking 1 level of Sorcerer early on (like after Paladin 2 or 4). This gets you a better and longer-ranged ranged attack (compared to a javelin/throwing axe) in the form of a Sorcerer cantrip like Chill Touch/Toll the Dead/Fire Bolt, plus defensive spells like Absorb Elements and Shield, and additional Smite slots. They delay to Extra Attack by 1 level is covered by picking up Booming Blade to tide you over during Character Level 5 (P4/S1 instead of P5), and BB can still be useful later on for Warcaster OAs, or Quickened BBs as a third attack on a non-PAM Sorcadin.



In your case, with a Half Elf Vengeance/Shadow Sorcadin, I'd do it like this:

STR 14+2
DEX 10
CON 13+1
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 15+1

Go Paladin 2 -> Sorcerer 1 -> Paladin 6 -> Sorcerer X.

Wear Heavy Armor and wield a Greatsword. Take the Defense fighting style. +2 STR at Paladin 4 ASI, and Great Weapon Master at Sorcerer 4 ASI (Character Level 10).

At Sorcerer 1 (Level 3), pick up Chill Touch, Booming Blade, and 2x utility cantrips (like Mage Hand and Message), along with Absorb Elements and Shield. Use Greatsword+Booming Blade for 2d6+1d8+4 at Level 5 (Paladin 4/Sorcerer 1), then switch to 2x Greatsword Attacks for 4d6+8 at Level 6 (Paladin 5/Sorcerer 1). Starting at Level 9 (Paladin 6/Sorcerer 9), pick up Quickened and Twinned Metamagics. You can now make 3x attacks in some turns with Attack+Extra Attack+BA Quickened BB, but that will burn through your Sorcery Points if used frequently. Then starting at Level 10, grabbing GWM gives you the option to pile on the -5/+10 damage during the times when you have Advantage on your attacks, such as when you're using your Vow of Emnity or when using your See-Through-Darkness option, plus it gives you more frequent opportunities for BA third attacks (without requiring any Sorcery Points) when you crit or down an enemy.

Bless will be your go-to Concentration option for Levels 1-8 (unless you have another party member who will be casting that in most combats). Starting at Level 9, when your See-Through-Darkness comes online, that is another good option for Concentration to use in some fights, provided you make sure you're not hampering your party when you use it, although it likely won't ever totally replace Bless. Another situationally useful Concentration option would be Protection from Good/Evil (Twinned to 2 allies from Level 9+), if fighting specific creatures listed in the description. And Mirror Image is a good non-Concentration defensive option available from Level 9+, worth casting as a Quickened BA during an early round of a tougher fight, to increase your staying power.

[Person_Man]

IMO, the reason to take any levels of Paladin is for Smite. That also implies you’re going to be relying on melee most of the time, and that the Sorcerer levels are just there to fuel Smite more efficiently.

If that’s the case, then Paladin 5/Sorcerer 15 would be my suggestion.

You could go Paladin 2/Sorcerer 18 if you prefer more spells and lower at-will melee attacks, but I would only suggest that if you’re taking Paladin for the AC bump (heavy armor and defense fighting style).

Note that Paladin, Monk, and other MAD classes suffer with Point Buy. If you’re focusing on melee you’ll want max-ish Str and a respectable Con. So your Cha is probably going to be 14ish. And that’s fine if your spells are just for buffs and Smite fuel. But its mediocre if you care about any of the Paladin X to Y bonuses or using spells with a Save.

Conversely, if you’re playing a more conventional Sorcerer who just happens to be very heavily armored and stays away from the front line when it can be reasonably avoided, you can get away with 15 Str, 10 Dex, ok Con, 8 In, 8 Wis, max Cha.

[Man_Over_Game]

IMO, the reason to take any levels of Paladin is for Smite. That also implies you’re going to be relying on melee most of the time, and that the Sorcerer levels are just there to fuel Smite more efficiently.

If that’s the case, then Paladin 5/Sorcerer 15 would be my suggestion.

You could go Paladin 2/Sorcerer 18 if you prefer more spells and lower at-will melee attacks, but I would only suggest that if you’re taking Paladin for the AC bump (heavy armor and defense fighting style).

Note that Paladin, Monk, and other MAD classes suffer with Point Buy. If you’re focusing on melee you’ll want max-ish Str and a respectable Con. So your Cha is probably going to be 14ish. And that’s fine if your spells are just for buffs and Smite fuel. But its mediocre if you care about any of the Paladin X to Y bonuses or using spells with a Save.

Conversely, if you’re playing a more conventional Sorcerer who just happens to be very heavily armored and stays away from the front line when it can be reasonably avoided, you can get away with 15 Str, 10 Dex, ok Con, 8 In, 8 Wis, max Cha.

You could also be a Dwarf, take a level into Hexblade, and just leave your Strength at 13. For that, though, I'd recommend Conquest. Conquest cares a lot more about his Charisma than the Vengeance, but both can work well in this example (since Vengeance just cares about weapon attacks).

[RogueJK]

Paladin 5/Sorcerer 15 would be my suggestion.

If you're going Paladin 5, there's no reason not to go Paladin 6. Aura of Protection is just that good. The massive benefits from the Aura for up to 14 more levels is well worth delaying Sorcerer spells by a level and giving up (eventually) getting 8th level Sorcerer spells to use for 1 level at Character Level 20.

[Klorox]

Thanks everybody!


Sorcadin Half Elf. Yep. I'd start with Paladin to make sure you get the Heavy Armor proficiency.

How often to you want to get hit?
I'd prefer not to get hit much at all. This is a game using the gritty realism rules.

At level 1, if you start as Paladin you really don’t need to decide on using a two hander or a one hander with shield.

Since until you get your sorcerer levels you shouldn’t have a problem with needing a free hand to cast.

Whether you use S&B or a two hander really depends on if you are the sole tank or not at the very early levels, hell at level 1 it’s probably best to use a shield because level 1 characters are fragile even with a d10 hit dice.Okay, I'm starting to lean this way.
When building a Sorcadin, some general guidelines:

- First, decide whether you want Heavy Armor and slightly more HP, or CON save proficiency (for better Concentration) and earlier Sorcerer spell access. That will dictate your starting class. Starting Paladin is generally better in most situations, especially for a STR-based Sorcadin. But Sorcerer is a decent option for something like a DEX-based Sorcadin that won't be wearing Heavy Armor anyway (provided you can also spare the 13 STR for Paladin multiclassing requirements).

- Next, decide whether you want more Sorcerer spellcasting, or Paladin subclass abilities plus Extra Attack and Aura of Protection. That will dictate whether you stop at 2 levels of Paladin, or 6 levels. Nearly all Sorcadins will be either 2/X or 6/X. 2/X Sorcadins will be more spellcasters than melee fighters, and rely on the SCAGtrips to boost their single melee attacks, supplemented by the occasional Quickened SCAGtrip for a second attack. 6/X Sorcadins will be better melee fighters, have more Paladin goodies, and will have additional opportunities to smite.Definitely paladin 1. Sorcerer is kind of written into my backstory, so I'll probably take that at level 2, but maybe 3. At character level 7, I'd like to be pal6/sorc1. I am in a party with a wizard, a rogue, and a cleric, so I'm going to take on the tank role.


- Then, decide which weapon you want to wield. Sword and Board (or Axe/Board or Hammer/Board) for extra AC, Greatsword (potentially with GWM) for the most damage, Glaive/Halberd + PAM for a third attack, Spear and Shield + PAM for a third attack and extra AC, etc. In general, 2/X Sorcadins will usually want to stick to a non-PAM option. But Paladin 6/Sorcerer X Sorcadins can benefit greatly from PAM. Vengeance Paladins can afford to go the GWM route more than others, due to their ability to easily generate Advantage to help counteract the -5.

Picking a weapon type will also help dictate which Fighting Style you're going to take at Paladin 2. Usually Dueling or Defense for 1H Weapon + Shield, and Great Weapon or Defense for Greatsword or 2H Polearm. It also helps guide ASI/Feat options, with Warcaster being more important for someone with a 1H weapon and shield, or PAM being needed for a Polearm or Spear wielder. (However, builds that require Warcaster or PAM generally benefit greatly from taking that as the Level 1 ASI, so are less viable for non-VHuman/CLineage races.) The more I sort things out, the more I lean towards S&B with the defense style. Even if I have to wait for warcaster, and there's a slight chance that my DM will let the free hand thing slide, since I've written the source of the shadow magic and my paladin gifts to be the same source.



Further tips:

- Unlike most other casters, 6/X Sorcadins generally don't really need the boost to Concentration from either Warcaster or Resilient CON. Bless will usually be your go-to Concentration option throughout much of your early career, and it helps with Concentration checks while you're Concentrating on it. Then starting at Paladin 6, the bonus from Aura of Protection will further bolster your Concentration. However, Warcaster's ability to make Booming Blade Opportunity Attacks can be useful, especially on a PAM Sorcadin who can make OAs when the enemy approaches you. And if you're using a 1H Weapon and Shield, you'll likely need Warcaster to be able to cast Sorcerer spells with both hands full, unless your DM is one of those who just handwaves that aspect.
DM might handwave it, but I have until character level 5 to find out. I'll either take warcaster at that point, or boost my STR.

- Consider whether you want/need to dip Hexblade 1 for CHA-based attacks. This is usually done at 1st level, but doesn't have to be if you have a high enough STR (16ish) to wait for a few levels. This can help the build be less MAD, but also delays your Paladin/Sorcerer stuff by a level, and some folks consider it a cheesy move. It also locks you into 1H weapons only, so no 2H GWM/PAM builds possible with just 1 level of Hexblade. No warlocks in DM's homebrew world. Yes, it's cheesy, but hexblade would make this whole thing so much easier.


- Even if you're going 6/X, consider taking 1 level of Sorcerer early on (like after Paladin 2 or 4). This gets you a better and longer-ranged ranged attack (compared to a javelin/throwing axe) in the form of a Sorcerer cantrip like Chill Touch/Toll the Dead/Fire Bolt, plus defensive spells like Absorb Elements and Shield, and additional Smite slots. They delay to Extra Attack by 1 level is covered by picking up Booming Blade to tide you over during Character Level 5 (P4/S1 instead of P5), and BB can still be useful later on for Warcaster OAs, or Quickened BBs as a third attack on a non-PAM Sorcadin.
I'm almost definitely taking sorcerer at character level 2 or 3.



In your case, with a Half Elf Vengeance/Shadow Sorcadin, I'd do it like this:

STR 14+2
DEX 10
CON 13+1
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 15+1
I was thinking:
STR: 16
DEX: 8
CON: 16
INT: 8
WIS: 10
CHA: 16

Is that bad?


Go Paladin 2 -> Sorcerer 1 -> Paladin 6 -> Sorcerer X.

Wear Heavy Armor and wield a Greatsword. Take the Defense fighting style. +2 STR at Paladin 4 ASI, and Great Weapon Master at Sorcerer 4 ASI (Character Level 10).

At Sorcerer 1 (Level 3), pick up Chill Touch, Booming Blade, and 2x utility cantrips (like Mage Hand and Message), along with Absorb Elements and Shield. Use Greatsword+Booming Blade for 2d6+1d8+4 at Level 5 (Paladin 4/Sorcerer 1), then switch to 2x Greatsword Attacks for 4d6+8 at Level 6 (Paladin 5/Sorcerer 1). Starting at Level 9 (Paladin 6/Sorcerer 9), pick up Quickened and Twinned Metamagics. You can now make 3x attacks in some turns with Attack+Extra Attack+BA Quickened BB, but that will burn through your Sorcery Points if used frequently. Then starting at Level 10, grabbing GWM gives you the option to pile on the -5/+10 damage during the times when you have Advantage on your attacks, such as when you're using your Vow of Emnity or when using your See-Through-Darkness option, plus it gives you more frequent opportunities for BA third attacks (without requiring any Sorcery Points) when you crit or down an enemy.

Bless will be your go-to Concentration option for Levels 1-8 (unless you have another party member who will be casting that in most combats). Starting at Level 9, when your See-Through-Darkness comes online, that is another good option for Concentration to use in some fights, provided you make sure you're not hampering your party when you use it, although it likely won't ever totally replace Bless. Another situationally useful Concentration option would be Protection from Good/Evil (Twinned to 2 allies from Level 9+), if fighting specific creatures listed in the description. And Mirror Image is a good non-Concentration defensive option available from Level 9+, worth casting as a Quickened BA during an early round of a tougher fight, to increase your staying power.

Very interesting take on things. I'm glad I don't have to commit to what weapon I want to use right now (just because I start S&B doesn't mean I have to stay that way).
IMO, the reason to take any levels of Paladin is for Smite. That also implies you’re going to be relying on melee most of the time, and that the Sorcerer levels are just there to fuel Smite more efficiently.

If that’s the case, then Paladin 5/Sorcerer 15 would be my suggestion.

You could go Paladin 2/Sorcerer 18 if you prefer more spells and lower at-will melee attacks, but I would only suggest that if you’re taking Paladin for the AC bump (heavy armor and defense fighting style).

Note that Paladin, Monk, and other MAD classes suffer with Point Buy. If you’re focusing on melee you’ll want max-ish Str and a respectable Con. So your Cha is probably going to be 14ish. And that’s fine if your spells are just for buffs and Smite fuel. But its mediocre if you care about any of the Paladin X to Y bonuses or using spells with a Save.

Conversely, if you’re playing a more conventional Sorcerer who just happens to be very heavily armored and stays away from the front line when it can be reasonably avoided, you can get away with 15 Str, 10 Dex, ok Con, 8 In, 8 Wis, max Cha.
I'm planning on being more tank than spellcaster. I will take at least 6 paladin levels.
You could also be a Dwarf, take a level into Hexblade, and just leave your Strength at 13. For that, though, I'd recommend Conquest. Conquest cares a lot more about his Charisma than the Vengeance, but both can work well in this example (since Vengeance just cares about weapon attacks).
Unfortunately, no warlocks in this setting.
If you're going Paladin 5, there's no reason not to go Paladin 6. Aura of Protection is just that good. The massive benefits from the Aura for up to 14 more levels is well worth delaying Sorcerer spells by a level and giving up (eventually) getting 8th level Sorcerer spells to use for 1 level at Character Level 20.
I agree 100%.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'll recommend P2 before heading to sorcerer, because smite is just that useful.
Also, sword and board and defensive fighting style. If the campaign is gritty, not getting hit at early levels might be a good enough reason to take defensive fighting style.

[Aimeryan]

The more I sort things out, the more I lean towards S&B with the defense style. Even if I have to wait for warcaster, and there's a slight chance that my DM will let the free hand thing slide, since I've written the source of the shadow magic and my paladin gifts to be the same source.

Sneaky tip on this; dropping an item is a free action, picking up an item requires your free object interaction during an action or move - just drop your weapon, cast, pick up weapon. The major downside is that terrain might stop you doing this (steep cliff, rapid-flowing river, etc.). Technically, the DM could also have some throwaway minion ready an action to pickup your weapon when you drop it, but explaining why a minion is waiting to do this would require some major DM bu****t. Also, reactions are out (Shield/Absorb Elements), unless you are willing to leave your weapon on the floor until the start of your next turn.

Warcaster for Shield/Absorb Elements is a good pickup. As mentioned earlier in the thread, PAM also gives the Opportunity Attack when they enter your reach, which Warcaster Booming Blade makes good on. PAM is also a strong pickup by itself for the extra smite opportunity and eventual Improved Divine Smith.

If you are easily able to get hold of specific magic items, Gauntlets of Ogre Power (https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/gauntlets-of-ogre-power) give you 19 Str and are only Uncommon (according to the DMG; 101-500g). They require attunement, but largely replace the Warlock (Hexblade) level. There are also better versions (able to break the 20 Str limit!), however, those are rarer (and thus, cost more).

[MrCharlie]

If you're going Paladin 5, there's no reason not to go Paladin 6. Aura of Protection is just that good. The massive benefits from the Aura for up to 14 more levels is well worth delaying Sorcerer spells by a level and giving up (eventually) getting 8th level Sorcerer spells to use for 1 level at Character Level 20.
Agreed. If there was an eighth level spell that added my charisma modifier to all allied saves within 10 feet for 24 hours, I'd consider casting it. Holy aura is arguably most of that, except more radius and disadvantage on enemies to attack, but only 1 minute.

A paladin 2 sorcerer 18 build is viable however, mostly because you can just use booming or greenflame blade. On rounds where you want to nova you can (potentially) twin booming blade on two targets1, gaining the same smite benefits as extra attack if enemies are close to each other, at the expense of a sorcery point and less focused damage.

The key is if you mostly want to be a sorcerer who can wear armor and smack people with his stick as a party trick, or a paladin who can smite more and burn some peeps. The first favors a short dip for smite without delaying sorcerer that much, the second a longer dip for more features. I favor the second, mostly because it's a truer gish and a more consistent gish, but the first is fine as well.

The other question is archetype-I favor clockwork soul or divine soul for the sorcerer. Clockwork has a couple good tricks though, like using one of its first level bonus spells on Armor of Agathys and learning fire shield for a hefty retribution damage hit to any melee attackers (if you upcast armor, you can basically make it pointless to attack you). Draconic is actually a consideration here if you plan to use greenflame blade extensively, but I would not view the extra fire damage from its level 6 feature as worth the mediocrity of draconic sorcerer unless you're limited to PHB content.

Note that divine soul is not, per say, getting its powers from a good deity. I just re-read the starting post on archetype-I still think my recommendations are important, but you can easily reflavor shadow magic to be a dark deity. Shadow has some benefits over divine soul, but divine soul is holistically better. Or hell, Abbaerant mind is even a consideration.

For Paladin, Redemption or Vengeance are both equally usable, redemption in particular being quite excellent given its strong channels, but Glory is also surprisingly useful for both its level 3 spells (guiding bolt and heroism are both decent, and guiding bolt is probably the best single target blast given its low level good rider and good damage) and channels.

Others have dealt with fighting style and weapon usage quite well. My take is sword/board it until you can take polearm master, if you decide to go that route. Simply taking STR and CHA and ignoring feats entirely is also equally valid. Someone will likely come in and recommend a hexblade level at some point-the benefit is that you can keep STR at 15 or 16 and thus get more feats (which, if you want 20 attack stat and 20 casting stat, means you get to have feats at all).

Also, half-elf for race, or Mountain Dwarf if you can move the +2's around using Tasha's new rules on customizing origin (move to STR and CHA, +1/+1 at level 4, you've effectively gained another feat later).

1 Pre-SCAG rewrite, this worked. The SCAG rewrite, in addition to breaking shadow blade, improvised weapon/natural weapon usage, and distant spell usage, broke this. Which is why the SCAG rewrite should not have happened. If it does work, it costs 1 sorcery point.

[Person_Man]

If you're going Paladin 5, there's no reason not to go Paladin 6. Aura of Protection is just that good. The massive benefits from the Aura for up to 14 more levels is well worth delaying Sorcerer spells by a level and giving up (eventually) getting 8th level Sorcerer spells to use for 1 level at Character Level 20.

For most builds involving Paladin, I completely agree with you. But for a multiclass Paladin with point buy, I think it depends.

You’ve got AC and To-Hit to worry about, which are your most important statistics if your most frequent Action is going to be melee attacks. That probably means starting Str or Dex of 15 or 16. And preferably you’re going to use your first two Ability Score Increases to get one of them to 20. (Feats are probably not as valuable as an ASI in this case, because your AC and To-Hit are being used so frequently, and you’ll soon be swimming in low level spells you can use with a Bonus Action or Reaction. So Polearm Master or whatever would be nice, but not really “mandatory” in the way in might be for non-casters.

Now think about Con. Hit points are obviously important and you’ll be fighting on the front line. And you’ll probably want to cast buff spells that require Concentration. So you can’t dump it, and once your Str of Dex is 20, your first Feat choice might be Warcaster so that you get Advantage on Concentration and can cast Booming Blade or whatever as an Opportunity Attack. So I’m assuming 14 Con, and higher would be better.

Dump Int and Wis.

So whats your Cha? Probably 14. Maybe 16? Its not probably not going to be 18 or 20 until very high levels, if it ever gets there. And you don’t need it to be, because you’re not casting spells with Saving Throws often (or at all). And how often are your weak Saves targeted? (Or allies standing next to you). Maybe once or twice per combat? And mathematically, how often will a +2 or +3 bonus to Saves make the difference between success and failure? Once per game?

Again, its all about priorities, so I wouldn’t fault you or others for going Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14. But the math may not be worth it.

TLDR, MAD builds somewhat screwed in point buy games.

[Klorox]

For most builds involving Paladin, I completely agree with you. But for a multiclass Paladin with point buy, I think it depends.

You’ve got AC and To-Hit to worry about, which are your most important statistics if your most frequent Action is going to be melee attacks. That probably means starting Str or Dex of 15 or 16. And preferably you’re going to use your first two Ability Score Increases to get one of them to 20. (Feats are probably not as valuable as an ASI in this case, because your AC and To-Hit are being used so frequently, and you’ll soon be swimming in low level spells you can use with a Bonus Action or Reaction. So Polearm Master or whatever would be nice, but not really “mandatory” in the way in might be for non-casters.

Now think about Con. Hit points are obviously important and you’ll be fighting on the front line. And you’ll probably want to cast buff spells that require Concentration. So you can’t dump it, and once your Str of Dex is 20, your first Feat choice might be Warcaster so that you get Advantage on Concentration and can cast Booming Blade or whatever as an Opportunity Attack. So I’m assuming 14 Con, and higher would be better.

Dump Int and Wis.

So whats your Cha? Probably 14. Maybe 16? Its not probably not going to be 18 or 20 until very high levels, if it ever gets there. And you don’t need it to be, because you’re not casting spells with Saving Throws often (or at all). And how often are your weak Saves targeted? (Or allies standing next to you). Maybe once or twice per combat? And mathematically, how often will a +2 or +3 bonus to Saves make the difference between success and failure? Once per game?

Again, its all about priorities, so I wouldn’t fault you or others for going Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14. But the math may not be worth it.

TLDR, MAD builds somewhat screwed in point buy games.
Agreed. Unfortunately, a single classed paladin is just as MAD as a paladin/sorcerer.

[Person_Man]

Agreed. Unfortunately, a single classed paladin is just as MAD as a paladin/sorcerer.

Agreed. Though a Paladin 2/Sorcerer 18 has an easier time hanging back from the front line, as they obviously have a lot more spells to draw on. This puts less pressure on their hit points and makes Concentration checks less frequent.

So, 15 Str, 10 Dex, 8 Int, 8 Wis, 16+ Cha, maybe 14ish Con?

[Deathtongue]

I frankly don't see the logic in going Pal 2 / Sorcerer X past level 7 or so, unless your DM lets you use the old UA Favored Soul so you can have Extra Attack.

The sad truth of it is that SCAG Cantrips do not hold up in T3+ as a primary attack mode, even if you're doing Sword and Board without the damage bonus. Drop it down to T2 if your DM drops magical items into the mix. If you want your damage to keep up, you will need to smite multiple times a round and/or have a bunch of passive damage adders like GWF, Aura of Hate, Holy Weapon if Divine Soul, Spirit Shroud, etc.

SCAG Cantrips only seem passable because you're comparing it to a floor of damage. 3d8+5 versus 2d8+10 seems like a reasonable tradeoff for a T3 character. But 20 damage a round on a melee character is peanuts at that level and you will either need some major DM pity with the monster selection or more damage adders. My T3 Adventurer's League Paladin could throw down 100+ melee damage in a round several times throughout a workday.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

For most builds involving Paladin, I completely agree with you. But for a multiclass Paladin with point buy, I think it depends.

You’ve got AC and To-Hit to worry about, which are your most important statistics if your most frequent Action is going to be melee attacks. That probably means starting Str or Dex of 15 or 16. And preferably you’re going to use your first two Ability Score Increases to get one of them to 20. (Feats are probably not as valuable as an ASI in this case, because your AC and To-Hit are being used so frequently, and you’ll soon be swimming in low level spells you can use with a Bonus Action or Reaction. So Polearm Master or whatever would be nice, but not really “mandatory” in the way in might be for non-casters.

Now think about Con. Hit points are obviously important and you’ll be fighting on the front line. And you’ll probably want to cast buff spells that require Concentration. So you can’t dump it, and once your Str of Dex is 20, your first Feat choice might be Warcaster so that you get Advantage on Concentration and can cast Booming Blade or whatever as an Opportunity Attack. So I’m assuming 14 Con, and higher would be better.

Dump Int and Wis.

So whats your Cha? Probably 14. Maybe 16? Its not probably not going to be 18 or 20 until very high levels, if it ever gets there. And you don’t need it to be, because you’re not casting spells with Saving Throws often (or at all). And how often are your weak Saves targeted? (Or allies standing next to you). Maybe once or twice per combat? And mathematically, how often will a +2 or +3 bonus to Saves make the difference between success and failure? Once per game?

Again, its all about priorities, so I wouldn’t fault you or others for going Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14. But the math may not be worth it.

TLDR, MAD builds somewhat screwed in point buy games.

I cannot agree that this is even a question. 6th level paladin aura is the single strongest ability in the game before capstones. Even by your own example of one or two saves per combat with you and a couple of allies around with a +3 bonus that will more likely than not impact 1 save per combat. Over an adventuring day it's a game changer. To stop one level short is an incredibly bad idea. Our single classed paladins with point buy are generally starting with a 16 Chr and most have 18 by level 8. If you are a multiclassed Sorc there is even more weight on Chr over your attack stat.

[quindraco]

I frankly don't see the logic in going Pal 2 / Sorcerer X past level 7 or so, unless your DM lets you use the old UA Favored Soul so you can have Extra Attack.

The sad truth of it is that SCAG Cantrips do not hold up in T3+ as a primary attack mode, even if you're doing Sword and Board without the damage bonus. Drop it down to T2 if your DM drops magical items into the mix. If you want your damage to keep up, you will need to smite multiple times a round and/or have a bunch of passive damage adders like GWF, Aura of Hate, Holy Weapon if Divine Soul, Spirit Shroud, etc.

SCAG Cantrips only seem passable because you're comparing it to a floor of damage. 3d8+5 versus 2d8+10 seems like a reasonable tradeoff for a T3 character. But 20 damage a round on a melee character is peanuts at that level and you will either need some major DM pity with the monster selection or more damage adders. My T3 Adventurer's League Paladin could throw down 100+ melee damage in a round several times throughout a workday.

Building around Booming Blade generally means coming up with a solution for getting the target to move for precisely this reason - you need the additional damage dice from the target moving. At the stage where BB's base damage is 2d8, your goal is to always get 5d8. And if you're only making 1 attack per turn anyway, you need to really consider some Rogue levels. You also definitely need to heavily weigh what Paladin is and is not getting you, because the Strength requirement to grab some Paladin levels can be frustrating.

[Corran]

I frankly don't see the logic in going Pal 2 / Sorcerer X past level 7 or so, unless your DM lets you use the old UA Favored Soul so you can have Extra Attack.

The sad truth of it is that SCAG Cantrips do not hold up in T3+ as a primary attack mode, even if you're doing Sword and Board without the damage bonus. Drop it down to T2 if your DM drops magical items into the mix. If you want your damage to keep up, you will need to smite multiple times a round and/or have a bunch of passive damage adders like GWF, Aura of Hate, Holy Weapon if Divine Soul, Spirit Shroud, etc.

SCAG Cantrips only seem passable because you're comparing it to a floor of damage. 3d8+5 versus 2d8+10 seems like a reasonable tradeoff for a T3 character. But 20 damage a round on a melee character is peanuts at that level and you will either need some major DM pity with the monster selection or more damage adders. My T3 Adventurer's League Paladin could throw down 100+ melee damage in a round several times throughout a workday.
That's definitely true if you are building for damage. In which case you are mostly concentrting on (quickened or twinned) buffs. But if you aren't, and for example you are concentrating on anything else enough of the time (like control, debuffing or defense), then the scagtrips easily compete with extra attack, and sometimes outperform it. True, the dpr will be low, but the cost is low as well (just one cantrip, ie GFB, or maybe two for the GWM who didn't desperately want to commit to BB OA's), and you get other things to compensate for the low dpr (such as not having to commit to buffs), which you can anyway spike it if it matters.

That said, I agree that extra attack is important, but not mainly because of a few extra dpr points whenever you are met with elemental resistances or with bad enemy positioning (no adjacent target for GFB, no reason for the enemy to move for BB). But because our nova reles on it. Smiting seems like a waste of levels if you can only apply it once per turn (before quickening), and the ways in which someone without extra attack can fix this are not better than just going for extra attack (and consequently for the aura at the very least).

Meaning, I agree with your concusion (or at least with what I perceived t be your conclusion), but I think you are a little too harsh on the scagtrips. IMO they pull their weight for a non-damage centric build, as all cantrips do anyway (because cantrips are cheap when you have caster levels and because they scale incredibly well, and that's partly because the scaling does not care about class levels).

[sithlordnergal]

Important question, is your DM allowing Yuan-Ti as a race? If so I'd suggest taking Yuan-Ti because it makes you into essentially an anti-magic tank.

That said, Half-Elf makes for an excellent race for a Soaradin. Though I'd go 16 / 10 / 14 / 8 / 12 / 16 for your stat spread. Also, if you don't want to be hit, take the Defense Fighting Style, as +1 to AC can make a big difference, especially with Sword and Board.

[Klorox]

Important question, is your DM allowing Yuan-Ti as a race? If so I'd suggest taking Yuan-Ti because it makes you into essentially an anti-magic tank.

That said, Half-Elf makes for an excellent race for a Soaradin. Though I'd go 16 / 10 / 14 / 8 / 12 / 16 for your stat spread. Also, if you don't want to be hit, take the Defense Fighting Style, as +1 to AC can make a big difference, especially with Sword and Board.

Unfortunately, no, yuan-ti is not an option.

[Deathtongue]

Building around Booming Blade generally means coming up with a solution for getting the target to move for precisely this reason - you need the additional damage dice from the target moving.When you get into T3+, this is not cutting the mustard against monsters where 100-120hp is the floor.

3d8 extra damage is nothing to sneeze at, but A) it's not all up front, B) it's not guaranteed damage and most importantly C) it did nothing to stop the Storm Giant you're facing from casually doing 60 points of damage in a round or the Efreeti from giving you some Plane Touch action. At this level of play, you either need to throw up enough damage so that you and a helper can kill it in one or two rounds or do something that prevents monsters from doing their nastier actions -- which can involve things like doing some hardcore monster-attention gathering with Oath of Conquest shenanigans, Twinned Phantasmal Force, whatever. Booming Blade fails on both fronts.