Help me build a high-op Gestalt Gish

[Quertus]

I'm curious what a Playground approved really high op Gestalt Gish looks like. No infinite, no arbitrary, but most anything else goes.

I was going to include other minor criteria (and I'd best mention "can choose prestige classes on both sides of the gestalt") but let's leave the floor open for now. What does a playground high-op Gestalt Gish look like?

[RandomPeasant]

I would go Druid//Duskblade. Duskblade lets you Gish from low levels, and at 13th level you have access to the very powerful combination of full attack Arcane Channeling and giant octopus Wild Shape, allowing you to hit someone with the same spell almost a dozen times in a round. You can probably optimize some with PrCs (for example, getting Persistent buffs somehow would be a nice powerup), but honestly that combination is enough to keep you going through most games, especially since you have full Druid casting to back it up.

[liquidformat]

going along with that here are some others

duskblade/archivist and duskblade/psion int focused gish is nice you can focus your resources around one stat.

Similarly with slightly less casting warblade/wizard, warblade/archivist, warblade/psion, sorcerer/crusader

Personally I am a big fan of and have played a number of times as a Bear Totem City Brawler Barbarian 3/Predator Champion of the Wild Ranger 5/Fist of the Forest 2/Primeval 10// Druid 20

[RandomPeasant]

You don't really need to focus all that many resources towards INT as a Duskblade. You only need 15 to cast your top-level spells, and you have enough spell slots not to really need more. I think you probably gain more from getting to put less into your physical stats thanks to Wild Shape than you do from being nominally SAD.

[Gnaeus]

I really feel like we are letting Quertus down here. I mean Druid//Duskblade is a strong gish no doubt. But really high op multi PRC?

I’ll start the bidding at Wizard 5/dweomerkeeper 10/other wizard PRC5//Druid 5/planar shepherd 10/Druid 5. I’m sure there’s an early entry trick somehow. Might be worth staggering something like Incantrix with 5 levels early adding casting to wizard then 5 more levels after 15 adding casting to Druid.

That’s like a 10-1 time stream advantage with 2 sets of 9ths wildshaped into an outsider while casting wish as an (no cost bypasses SR) SU and metamagic reducers.

[Rebel7284]

The usual stub I go with for that is:

Wizard 5/Swiftblade 1/Spelldancer 1/Swiftblade 8/X 5
Factotum 5/Wizard 1/Factotum 3/Wizard 1/Factotum 3/Wizard 1/Y 6

This build has:
- Int to most things, including initiative twice
- Up to two extra actions per turn
- Great chassis and skills
- Full casting
- Ability to ignore spell resistance
- Free metamagic

Take the wizard variant that gives you fighter feats to qualify for Swiftblade/Spelldancer painlessly.
Feats:
Extend Spell
Persistent Spell
Craft Contingent Spell

X and Y can be a bunch of different things,
- I am a fan of some Warblade for high level maneuvers.
- Second level of Spelldancer is fun for Evasion.
- You qualify for Abjurant Champion, but can probably do better
- Sacred Exorcist gives you turn undead, which is helpful for things like Silver Pyromancer (Favor of the Martyr is a good spell to persist) and is on the Paladin list or just Devotion feats.

[Fouredged Sword]

Wizard 5 / Dwemorkeeper 10 / Abjurant champion 5 // Cleric 20.

You end up with 16 bab, access to divine power to get 20 bab, divine metamagic stacking with Dwemorkeeper's metamagic cost reductions. Between Abjurant Champion and Cleric buffs your AC is astronomical.

You are an incredibly powerful caster who also happens to be competent at hitting things with a pointy stick plus not dying in melee. That's gish right?

[RandomPeasant]

I’ll start the bidding at Wizard 5/dweomerkeeper 10/other wizard PRC5//Druid 5/planar shepherd 10/Druid 5. I’m sure there’s an early entry trick somehow. Might be worth staggering something like Incantrix with 5 levels early adding casting to wizard then 5 more levels after 15 adding casting to Druid.

I mean, that's not really a gish. It's just a generically powerful spellcaster. You don't get full BAB or divine power, and that's frankly unacceptable for a Gestalt Gish. I'm sure you can beat people up in melee, but it's the same way that someone abusing shapechange can, and that spell doesn't make every 17th level Wizard turn into a Gish.

[daremetoidareyo]

Dungeon crash fighter 20/ weapon supremacy line on touch spells/powers and the ability to cast/manifest in armor. Maybe arshkrau illumian with favored soul or magic mantle ardent.

[Gnaeus]

I mean, that's not really a gish. It's just a generically powerful spellcaster. You don't get full BAB or divine power, and that's frankly unacceptable for a Gestalt Gish. I'm sure you can beat people up in melee, but it's the same way that someone abusing shapechange can, and that spell doesn't make every 17th level Wizard turn into a Gish.

It can spank the heck out of a Druid//duskblade in melee. Watch me cast 10 buffs on round 1, on top of my persisted buffs. I’m sorry that your Gish can’t do melee combat very well. Why would 20 bab matter? I have Persistent Wratihstrike.

But if Divine power is the trick, we swap Incantrix 10 for text over table rainbow warmage 10. Now it has all cleric spells.

[RandomPeasant]

It can spank the heck out of a Druid//duskblade in melee. Watch me cast 10 buffs on round 1, on top of my persisted buffs. I’m sorry that your Gish can’t do melee combat very well. Why would 20 bab matter? I have Persistent Wratihstrike.

You could say the same thing about a Wizard 5/Incanatrix 10/Archmage 5 and a Duskblade 20 in normal play. The question was not "make the best melee spellcaster", but "make the best Gish". I'm sorry you didn't understand the rules very well.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Dungeon Crasher Zhentarim Soldier Fighter 9/ Warblade 10/ Fighter 1// Elf Generalist Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Incantatrix 10

You can use metamagic effect and cooperative metamagic* to persist your personal-range buffs, such as Shield, Wraithstrike, Greater/Superior Invisibility, Draconic Polymorph: War Troll, etc. *Cooperative metamagic is usable on your own spells when not in combat, as the action economy system only exists during initiative.

You can cast Melf's Unicorn Arrow in PH2 to dungeoncrash opponents into the ground.

Your Fighter 10 bonus feat at 20th level can be Weapon Supremacy in PH2, if you're into that.

[Maat Mons]

A high-op gestalt gish? I've never considered it. I usually treat gestalt as a opportunity to use material that would normally be severely underpowered, and then have something actually decent on the other side so I'm reasonably competent. And I always though gishes were defined by making poor optimization choices, since methods of being awesome in melee without sacrificing any spellcasting power are typically written off as not being "true" gishes. So, for me at least, "high-op gestalt gish" is a real brain-twister, a bunch of words that make sense on their own, put in an order that boggles my mind.

Currently, the two medium-op gestalt gish builds I've been toying with are Spirit Lion Totem Fangshields Streetfighter Barbarian 20 // Archivist (and PrCs) 20 and Spirit Lion Totem Streetfighter Barbarian 20 // Deadly Hunter Druidic Avenger 20. Obviously both would be uberchargers who wear Torques of Lucid Raging. They're late bloomers, but at level 19, they get to essentially turn their melee attacks into an areo-of-effect save-or-die... long after casters have all gained access to various actual area-of-effect save-or-dies. Sigh.

[Morphic tide]

An idea I've had floating around my head that I've never put through the effort to properly crunch out is making a Psycarnum Initiator, as Incarnum is nearly wholly static, Martial Initiating has pretty solid utility options, and Psionics has a lot of ways to become enormously more efficient with these two. You'll actually want a level or two of Psychic Warrior slid in, as that'll give you Expansion, perhaps another high-value 1st-level PsyWar power (Biofeedback at 1 pp), and a bonus feat or two, for a net of at least three feats and possibly a fourth as you save an Expanded Knowledge or two.

The best combination for the "main thrust" is obviously Egoist Psion/Warblade/Totemist, but as mentioned above there's a lot you can get out of properly-timed PsyWar dips, and Totemist and Warblade are very friendly to dips. Soul Manifester's probably the best PRC for this just by letting you brute-force your Psionics and Meldshaping progressions, maintaining BAB and HP with Warblade. Thanks to being Intelligence-based with Warblade as a primary class, you have no chassis weak points: Warblade's full BAB, strong Fortitude save, and d12 hd, with a 1st-level feature adding Intelligence to Reflex saves, while Psion and Soul Manifester are strong Will saves.

A key thing to note is that Gestalt has Fractional BAB be mandetory, so PsyWar 2/Totemist 2 add up to one lost BAB, not two. I think the ideal time for PsyWar 1 is simultaneous with Psion 5, as there's some key 3rd-level power Feat perquisites, if only in the form of a key 3rd-level power to loot with Expanded Knowledge. This would make the 5th-level build Warblade 1/Totemist 2/Warblade +1/Psychic Warrior 1//Psion 5, as then you can enter Soul Manifester right at 6th level and have 2nd-level Maneuvers as of 4th level. Definitely go Azurin for the bonus point of Essentia and bonus feat, your biggest constraint is fitting feats.

Speaking of feats: Psychic Renewal, Midnight Augmentation, Psycarnum Infusion, Azure Talent, Psicrystal Affinity, Psicrystal Containment, and Psionic Meditation are basically the core of this concept, your whole "point" is wringing for efficiency with subsystem interactions. Psion 5 gives you two Psionic feats, PsyWar 2 gives another two Psionic feats, and every single one of these is a Psionic feat. Azure Talent's a valid 1st-level feat for Azurin, as well. So you have 5 of 7 major feats covered by Bonus Feats as of 5th level, but I suggest PsyWar 2 be placed at 7th level to get a 4th-level Power via Expanded Knowledge rather than to complete "the build", with Schism being a chief target for getting buffs set up properly. Similarly, Hustle gives more Psionic Focus chances for all these feats.

This leaves us with Warblade 16 at the end and IL 18, alongside *checks numbers* three multiclass penalties that start at level 4 if you're using those. So if you are in a game with multiclass penalties for Gestalt for some reason, then you go Human, declare Psion your Favored Class, and alternate Warblade/PsyWar levels to only have one instance of penalties from Totemist 2 that kick in at level 9 when PsyWar or Warblade hit 4th. Have PsyWar be the first non-Psion 4th, gives you IL 7 for Warblade 4 for 4th-level Maneuvers only 2 levels late.

In that case, drop Psychic Renewal as you won't have 9th-level Maneuvers worth using it on. It'll free up your Swift Action for Boosts and Hustle, anyways, letting you keep vomiting Midnight Augmentations and Psycarnum Infusions, and the Tiger Claw extra attack boosts have wonderful synergy with some abnormal Totemist loadouts. Oh, and do note that you have the Bestow Power toolkit lined up to go if it's a high-op enough game that infinite PP isn't an issue. Definitely get the Belt of Battle, IIRC, for 3/day extra Swifts, you need more Swift actions, you are very hungry for Swift actions.

[Thurbane]

As already mentioned by liquidformat, Duskblade/Archivist. If you go Illumian, you base your bonus spells of Str instead of Wis, making you less MAD.

You could PrC on the Archivist side without missing out on too much, either. Church Inquisitor, maybe, for Turn Undead to fuel Divine Metamagic?

Archivist has such massive potential for knowing the best spells, and often at earlier levels. Combined with Duskblade chassis giving you full BAB without needing spells like Divine Power, Channeling, and Quickcast for free quickened spells per day, as well as full martial weapon proficiency and even heavy armor proficiency if you want to utilise it, is a pretty great combo IMHO.

From 13th on, you can full attack channelling some pretty nasty spells from your Archvist side.

If you take the Arcane Strike feat you can burn Duskblade spells to add to your damage for a round.

[Barna13]

StP Erudite+wizard. Add prestige classes at your leisure.

Erudites are the god-emperors of the action economy(schism, temporal acceleration, synchronicity), but struggle to fit in all the powers/spells they want to. Wizards have the best spell list in the game, and can prepare oodles of different spells. With the wizard spell list in their back pockets, Erudites can focus on all sorts of other spells from every other spell list in the game. The ultimate combination of strengths.

That said, they do also stack weaknesses. 2skill points, only good save being will, 1/2 BAB, and d4HP are bad traits shared by both. That said, the synergy is undeniable.

[Coventry]

Pathfinder:
Side 1: Halfling Swashbuckler (Inspired Blade) 1/Fighter (Weapon Master - Swift Iron style) 1/Unsworn Shaman 16/Fighter 2
Side 2: Medium 18/Unsworn Shaman 2
Human Heritage

Invest in dexterity first.

At level 20, this character gets:
* 5 main-hand attacks per round (6 with haste): 4 from BAB+16, 1 from the Medium(Champion)'s Sudden Attack ability and 1 from Haste, of course.
* Dexterity to hit and damage from the Swashbuckler.
* Access to both Piranha Strike and Risky Striker feats at the same time (against Large or larger creatures)
* Access to to the Reduce spell to let those feats work against medium or larger opponents.
* The casting power and flexibility of 9th level shaman spells
* Limited access to cleric spells not on the shaman list via the heritage, like Divine Favor, Righteous Might and Blessing of Fervor
* The flexibility of picking up any wizard spell via the Arcane Enlightenment ... requires a little planning.
* Access to Craft Wonderous Item at whim via the Fetish hex. It may take a while to use properly, but grants access to so many toys.
* The flexibility of the Medium class to be something else for a day
* One class ability (Spirit Bonded armor) requires him to wear medium armor, so there is a cap on the value of dexterity for armor class.

I'm sure you could do much better than that, but this was so over the power level for the group I play with that I didn't even bring it to the table.

The flexibility of divine casting, flexibility of dipping into arcane spells, flexibility of wondrous item crafting, and flexibility of channeled spirits strays well into "batman" territory.

[DMVerdandi]

Alright, since someone already placed it in the bucket, I don't have to be a broken record.


Stp Erudite[Dragon 319] 20//warblade 1/Monk 1/Swashbuckler 3/warblade 16

Carmindine monk, tashalatora, insightful strike, and tashalatora work to make you INT SAD
extend power and persistent power through bonus metapsionic feats.


As said before the psion list is insane when it comes to action economy, but another thing is through psychic reformation, so many of the AMAZING psychic warrior feats can be gained. there isn't a need to pilfer every power they have, but some of the ones that only they get are just prime for a gish.
this also applies for many of the spells that you can gain from Stp. Assassin spells, trapmaster spells, etc.




Now, one thing that I am unsure about is just how much potency one gets from the warblade levels instead of getting more psi points from LURK. Maneuvers are amazing, but with so many powers, just having more points, as well as the lurk augments are a real tasty option.
*Alternatively use lurk levels*

[Rater202]

If Rainbow Servant Cheese is permitted: Warmage 8/Rainbow Servant 10 and two levels of whatever goes good with one or both of those classes in and of itself would make for a powerful Gish, but that's only one half of the gestalt.

Taking the Armored Mage Feat to boost Warmage Armor proficiency up to HEavy is optionally but useful if you have a low dex score or don't think you'll be getting much utility out of the Rainbow Servant's power to summon wings.

That covers the cast side, now the Martial Side... Since you're gonna be boosting your intelligence anyway to get the benefit of Wamrmage Edge, Duskblade as an Int Bast armored mage gish more focused on melee than a War Mage is and would get you heavy shield proficiency and a few more spells per day. I'm not sure how the Duskblae spell list compares to the combination of Warmage and Cleric but if there's anything on there that you can pick that isn't on one or both other lists that's some added versatility, and if not you're got ane extra reserve of spells per day.

Or, you could go with an Initiator Class. Probably Warblade. With Full BAB and good fort saves it, plus the Int Bonus—which war mage encourages you to have due to the War MAge Edge—really balances out the Warmage's weaknesses. Just 20 Levels of Warblade straight would probably give you all the martial power you need.

[Maat Mons]

Personally, I think Crusader pairs better with Cloistered Cleric than it does with Sorcerer. Charisma honestly isn't that important a stat to Crusaders. It only really helps with Smite and Will saves. And Wisdom helps with Will saves too, so if you're trying to decide between investing in Charisma or Investing in Wisdom, Smite is the only difference.



Instead of Warmage 8 / Rainbow Servant 10, why not Beguiler 6 / Rainbow Servant 10? Or maybe Beguiler 5 / Mindbender 1 / Rainbow Servant 10?



And if we're doing cheese, there's always Archivist 20 // something 1 / Psion 19 for full base attack bonus. For the "something," maybe Fighter with that ACF from Dragon magazine that lets you move at full speed in medium armor. Buy some mithril Mechanus gear, and you're all set.

[Anthrowhale]

On the spellcaster side, a persistomancer seems good. Archivist seems like the right base, because they have plausible access to virtually every spell in the game. Wizard going into Rainbow Servant is low op, because it dedicates 10 levels of prestige class towards something that an archivist gets for free. Beguiler/Rainbow Servant seems even worse, since they lose out on many of the good spells on the wizard list. As a bonus, you avoid arcane spell failure chance and MAD issues are nonoperative given the existence of Owl's Insight.

Of the available persistent spell delivery vehicles, Spelldancer seems the most compelling despite the high feat tax. Incantatrix and Divine Metamagic approaches have more limited applications per day.

To make your buffs stick, you want a high caster level. Divine casters already have an advantage here with +4 level items and you can go much higher with Hathran.

Archivist 3/Church Inquisitor 2/Mystic Wanderer 2/Spelldancer 2/Hathran 5 with feats Ethran, Iron Will, Combat Casting, Endurance, Mobility, Dodge, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Leadership and (maybe) Ocular spell using Persistent Otiluke's Suppressing Field to secure your buffs from dispels and as a massive debuff.

On the beatstick side, full attack channeling and pounce both seem compelling. Just imagine full attack channeling harm for example. This suggests Barbarian(Lion Spirit Totem) 1/Duskblade 13.

To pay the feat tax, Iron Will can be acquired through the Otyugh Hole, Combat Casting is granted by Duskblade, Mobility can come from the peg leg graft or armor property, Dodge can be acquired by Heorics, and Extend Spell can come from Substitute Domain[Planning]. This leaves Ethran, Endurance, Persistent Spell, Leadership, and Ocular Spell at level 1, 3, 6, 9, and 12. Heroics can be used to pick up essentially all desired fighter bonus feats via Heroics.

In terms of attack routines, a vorpal weapon that you can surge of fortune + sense weakness and a have a Heavy Maul with Greater Might Wallop dealing 12d6 damage/hit under persistent Wraithstrike both seem good.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Let's see what we have so far:
- Lots of mention of persisting spells, which is a must for super-high-op gestalt gishing.
- Several mentions of Incantatrix, which is probably the easiest way to persist things.
- Also some mention of Dweomerkeeper, which is useful to ensure some effects cannot be dispelled and have no components, but doesn't work as well with Metamagic Effect/Cooperative.
- Some mention of spells to persist, but perhaps not enough.
- One mention of leadership + Circle Magic.

Let me affirm a lot of this but also add to it. I propose Wizard 5/Incantatrix 3/Halruaan Elder X//Archivist Y, add Dweomerkeeper to the Archivist side to taste, and one of many ways to get TU. Going Psion or Erudite on the other side gets you better action economy but fewer persistable spells (and no no-save daze based on a knowledge check); ultimately, either works. Regarding the argument about BaB requirements as a gish, not sure what that makes a low-BaB meleeing wizard, but in any event it's easy enough to persist Divine Power. Heck, even without Archivist one can nab Arcane Disciple for Divine Power.

Why Halruaan Elder? We are an optimization step below getting arbitrary caster level, per OP's request. One of the easier ways to get practically high CL is via Circle Magic. Leadership is a staple of very-high PO, and in this case you can use those lower-level followers to safely provide spell slots to increase your caster level. Starting at a base of 40 CL makes one very difficult to dispel; with just a pinch of CL-pumping it makes extended hrs/level spells last four days per casting. Slot efficiency actually matters for this kind of buffer because you will run out of slots to persist things (again, because we are a step below having arbitrary spell slots). Hathran is fine too, but I wouldn't go Red Wizard for both RP and practical reasons.

Personal/Fixed Range spells to persist while gishing:
Aside from obvious ones like Wraithstrike, Swift Fly, Greater Invisibility, Mass Lesser Vigor, Divine Power, Righteous Might, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Bite of the Were-X...
Draconic Polymorph - Obvious as well; just noting you should be an outsider to get the Jarilith form. Compared to the War Troll it gets pounce, fear effects, and (even) better stats.
Friendly Fire - Just say no to ranged attacks.
Spellcaster's Bane - Complements Battlemagic Perception, which with your caster level + extend can last the adventuring day sans persist; SB detects spellcasting within LoS at any distance, while BP detects spellcasting in LoE within 100'. Very useful in combination with Divine Defiance counter-spelling, especially if your base CL is 40.
Ruin Delver's Fortune - Saves money on an evasion ring, and you're doing other things with your immediate actions anyway.
Greater Blinking - Not as many defensive benefits as Permeable Form, but fewer headaches.
Giant Size - From Hero Domain via Archivist. Optional; when you really want to smash things.
Empyreal Ecstasy - Via Divine Bard or Pleasure Domain. Half damage is nice. Ask your GM about order of operations when applying DR.
Recitation - Good party buff, if you have a party to buff.
Stone Body - Immunities, DR, surmountable penalties.
Shard Blessing Aura - Mobile globe of invulnerability, great when you get it.

Persisting everything else while gishing:
Easy enough with Ocular + Persist. This gets you stuff like Starmantle, Beastland Ferocity+Favor of the Martyr+Delay Death, Greater Ironguard, Death Ward, Divine Agility, Owl's Insight, and so on.

Spells you don't need to persist at all, in part due to high CL:
Greater Magic Weapon, Greater Mighty Wallop, Superior Resistance, Dragonsight, as mentioned Battlemagic Perception, Freedom of Movement, Magic Circle Against X, Elemental Body, and so on.

[Xervous]

Away from books so I’m pulling this one off the top of my head.

Cleric/Etc as the general concept. We’re here for cleric casting and big dumb piles of numbers.

Ingredients:
Shiba protector: gets us to SAD wis
Intuitive attack: arbitrary accuracy by doubling wis on attacks
Paladin: apply feat, get wis to all saves
Saint: if templates are permitted
Other various monk like PrCs (if not using fractional saves)
Contemplative
(Maybe) dweomercheater


Assuming we have to play from level 1 and have the concept be valid there.
Early levels you’re a cleric whose punches don’t hurt that much, but you’ve got respectable accuracy, travel devotion supplies flurries, and you’ve got respectable AC.

Cloistered Cleric 2 // monk 1/paladin 1

CC3// monk1 / paladin 2 (picking up wis to all saves)

+CC//+monk (feat and evasion)

+CC//+ full BAB class, probably a ToB class for some cheap stances as we’re initiator level 3 here.

Level 6 my brain is fuzzing. Level 7 Shiba protector comes online and the Kung fu starts to wallop. Level 8 Saint is obtained. Contemplative later provides mettle for leveraging the arbitrary saves

A monkless start allows prestige paladin at 5 getting us an expanded spell list, shiba at 6, and divine grace at 7 (could overlap pr paladin at 6 but we lose a caster level).


End result is generally cleric casting with arbitrary high OP stats that spreadsheet over most recognizable hazards. Most saves pass on 2s, AC denies anything but nat20, and full power attack is a given.

Example assuming fractional saves:
Lazy 14 CON, +12 from saves, lazy 36 WIS. +5 cloak. +32 FORT save @20

[Morphic tide]

People, they're asking for a Gish, not a CoDzilla. Can you put Divine Might in the dumpster to take actual Martial levels of some kind? Please? Like, actually fight primarily as a Martial, just with horrifying gobs of subsystem backing that? You have to go some variety of Psion to get the action economy for all that spellcasting to even do anything, anyways!

[Maat Mons]

He said "high-op." Taking levels in martial classes and primarily fighting as a martial character is not high-op.

Now, it is true that he also said "gish." And being a gish does mean taking levels in martial classes and primarily fighting as a martial character. So being a gish inherently means not being high-op.

"High-op gish" is an inherently contradictory phrase. No such thing can exist. You're high-op, or you're a gish. Never both.

[Thurbane]

People, they're asking for a Gish, not a CoDzilla. Can you put Divine Might in the dumpster to take actual Martial levels of some kind? Please? Like, actually fight primarily as a Martial, just with horrifying gobs of subsystem backing that? You have to go some variety of Psion to get the action economy for all that spellcasting to even do anything, anyways!

Maybe the OP themselves could let us know what he considers gish and/or high op, and if what is being suggested is useful or not.

It feels here like you are projecting your personal definitions/expectations as if they are universal?


He said "high-op." Taking levels in martial classes and primarily fighting as a martial character is not high-op.

Now, it is true that he also said "gish." And being a gish does mean taking levels in martial classes and primarily fighting as a martial character. So being a gish inherently means not being high-op.

"High-op gish" is an inherently contradictory phrase. No such thing can exist. You're high-op, or you're a gish. Never both.

Not sure I agree with this either. If you're getting (close to) the same spell output as non-gish caster, but on a less squishy base with better (non-spell) attack options, I'd personally say you're pretty high op.

Also, given that OP is asking for a gestalt build, that gives a lot more room to be pretty high-op while still ticking off gish boxes.

Wizard 20//Archivist 20, as a silly example, is still limited by action economy, and a relatively squishy base.



Ultimately, all of us speculating on what OP expects or will find useful isn't all that helpful: I think the best thing to do is offer up a variety of ideas, and the OP can pick and chose what they like.

I find that's becoming a bit of a trend on these forums recently - not calling out anyone in this thread in particular, but a lot of replies on these forums feel like they are becoming more passive aggressive (or outright aggressive/rude) in nature, and a lot more assertions that how you play at your table is the only "right" way to play. It's always been there, but in the last few months it feels to me like it's increasing significantly. :smallfrown:

...maybe I'm imagining things, or being overly cynical.

[Morphic tide]

He said "high-op." Taking levels in martial classes and primarily fighting as a martial character is not high-op.

Now, it is true that he also said "gish." And being a gish does mean taking levels in martial classes and primarily fighting as a martial character. So being a gish inherently means not being high-op.

"High-op gish" is an inherently contradictory phrase. No such thing can exist. You're high-op, or you're a gish. Never both.
Duskblade's fine. And I myself suggested ToB, Incarnum, and PsyWar as the Martial end with Schism and Metamorphosis on the table from the other getting to full Psion 20. My issue is all the people talking extreme shenanigans with Archivist, Psion, Wizard, and Druid that would be literally incapable of actually using their daily resources in normal campaigns without extremely deep violations of basic game mechanics or actively looking for dramatic slot-burners.

Is it not high-op to have 10% of your build, if that, enable Grappling the Tarrasque to death as a secondary competency of that part? The multiclassing penalty avoidance version is able to simultaneously be a Grappler, Tripper, and Ubercharger while having a better-than-full progression Egoist on the other end to handle everything that isn't fighting. It's a hell of a lot more endurance and efficiency of options in the long run because you only really have any need for 7pp a fight unless it's very thoroughly stacked against you.

If it really bothers you that much? Make the Psion side an StP Erudite to be looting your enormous bag of utilities from literally everything with only Metamorphosis for direct combat concerns. By having one side be actually a Martial, you get a quite impressive chassis with a very strict gain of daily resources, allowing you to have a realistic expectation of surviving a face-to-face slugging match with five Balors. The chassis matters. Your Fortitude and Reflex saves are important. d12 hit dice are useful.

Combining two full caster-types gets you only a little more than double the daily endurance and less than doubled available breadth, because there's not many options the good ones are missing and they don't differ for efficiency that much. Combining one of these top-end caster-types with a resource-efficient combat package greatly reduces the number of selections you have to take to deal with fights, and has the remaining ones used less, and makes you withstand new scenarios altogether, and gives you some side-options you no longer have to take with your utility powerhouse.

And in the specific case of a Psycarnum gish, it's directly granting the tools for the Bestow Power loop with considerably more build supplies left over. Taking actual Totemist levels into Soul Manifester with the other side housing Psychic Warrior levels is using abundant level resources to turn on wholly endless output, while getting even more bonus feats to turn on combat solutions without spending PP and open up more Psionics applications. Warblade covers your Reflex save and gives per-encounter combat tools that stack with all the things you're feeding Totemist.

[Maat Mons]

Individual definitions of "high op" and "gish" may vary. But whenever a thread about high-op gishes has come up, it's been very consistent that each and every build either will be criticized for not being "high-op," or will be criticized for not being "a gish." I feel very comfortable in asserting that no build will ever receive widespread community endorsement as "a high-op gish."

I'm not bothered by any of the builds that have been suggested. I'm bothered by the "not high-enough op" and "not gishy enough" comments that have been cropping up. I'm bothered because I can easily see this turning into a long, sprawling debate on where the line is between "high op" and "not high op," and between "gish" and "not a gish." I'd like to head that possibility off by acknowledging that we're not going to arrive at an agreement about what target our builds should aim for.

I'd much rather have people saying things like "here's an idea that skews more towards the high-op end" or "here's an idea that skews more towards the gish end" than have people saying things like "those ideas aren't high op" and "those ideas aren't gishes."

[Rater202]

Does a Warlock count as a caster for the purposes of a Gish?

Because a Warlock/Monk gestalt, with proper evocation choices, if you get the right starting ability scores, makes for a reasonable approximation of Superman.

[Crake]

"High-op gish" is an inherently contradictory phrase. No such thing can exist. You're high-op, or you're a gish. Never both.

You understand that this claim is absurd right? Claiming that there is no scale of optimization within the theme of a gish?

Here's a picture to help you understand:

https://i.imgur.com/JibHZeQ.png

[Maat Mons]

The viewpoint you seem to think I hold sure would be absurd. But... that's not what I was saying. I don't want to dissect the method of delivery too much, since I worry we could derail this thread. But I will try for a third and final time convey the idea behind the text you quoted.

That idea is: "I think this thread would be improved if we stopped making posts about how we feel someone's suggestion doesn't merit the description of 'gish' or 'high-op.'"

And if that doesn't do it, then I guess I'm just really bad at putting my thoughts into words, and should quit while I'm ahead before I'm any further behind.

[Quertus]

Maybe the OP themselves could let us know what he considers gish and/or high op, and if what is being suggested is useful or not.

Lol.

So, IIRC, the term "Gish" originated in the bygone glory days of D&D, with the psionic "gith" races. It was a term for their Multiclass Fighter / Wizard. Which, in those days, meant that it had most of the advantages of both classes (HP, weapons, attacks, armor, saves, spells).

It's really easy to build a high-op Fighter - just get Festering Anger on an infinite attacks crit fisher (I played that guy - I retired him after I demonstrated how OP he was).

But sharing resources between both sides of a non-infinite build could be a tad tricky. So I was curious what people would (or had) come up with.

This is the Playground, so a certain degree of "I want to play…" being responded to with "play a full caster" is to be expected.

Although I'm loving a lot of the ideas and creativity and craftsmanship in some of the builds… I was kinda expecting some "let's see what muggles can do", some optimization of muggle abilities as part of a Gish build.

One of my many reasons for making this thread was to see what happened when the same mind tried to optimize both a caster and a martial in the same build.

Now, if a caster//caster can tick off every single check box, can perform as well as a traditional Gish in terms of roles, durability, stamina, etc, then I guess I'll echo the "play a caster" mantra here. But the build - whether caster//martial or caster//caster - needs to come out of the gate strong. By level 2 at the latest, the party needs to feel that this character is carrying their weight, and isn't running on fumes after 10 encounters.

It's not like it's hard for a martial character to come on strong by level 2 just with Fighter bonus feats on several builds, like BFC or mounted combat. But that can be tough to balance with requirements for Prestige Classes - especially when you can take them on both sides of the gestalt.

So, by "Gish" I mean… durable, capable of filling a "Fighter" role, NI stamina, in addition to casting (probably "tier 1 casting" given high-op). By "high op" I mean… if you wanted to eek out every last drop of power from the build (before "infinite"), what would you build?

Clearer?

[Morphic tide]

Okay, the specification makes it clearer the starting point should be ToB on one side, as that has the best starts endurance-wise instead of needing to be like level 9 to really start having staying power.

Warblade 2/Archivist 3//Egoist Psion 5 would qualify you for theurgy, using the straightforward and cheap Archivist toolbox potential while Egoist/Warblade is resource efficient combat that saves prepared slots for niche answers. Warblade at 1st is a must for the 12+Con HP.

Depending on how far Maneuvers need to go, you can use Psychic Warrior for a bit more PP, including cheaper self-healing. It's also a big help for the raw output of Egoist and Warblade thanks to bonus feats.

Fully avoiding multiclassing penalties with four classes would delay theurgy to level 8 instead of 6 as you'd need PsyWar 2/Warblade 2/Archivist 3 to qualify. Not worth it, in other words.

[pabelfly]

I think a proper Gestalt build competition would be pretty cool.

Anyway, decided to do the build, but unlike other posters emphasizing spellcasting, I'm going with more of an emphasis on some abusive martial cheese

Amphibious Anthropromorphic Giant Octopus 2/Cleric 18
Barbarian 1/Cleric 1/Fighter 18

Feats: Destruction Devotion, Multiweapon Fighting, EWP: Sai, Improved Multiweapon Fighting, Greater Multiweapon Fighting, Holy Warrior, Martial Study
Fighter Feats: Thug Fighter, Resolute Alternate Class Feature, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Melee Weapon Mastery, Martial Stance, Shadow Blade, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Crushing Strike

Notes:
- Sai is picked because it is a Shadow Hand weapon (getting dex-to-damage) that does bludgeoning damage (getting Crushing Strike)
- Build is made with multiclassing penalties in mind. If this is not an issue, I'd go with Octopus 2/Barbarian 2/Fighter 16 // Sorcerer 6/Rainbow Servant 10/Sorcerer 4, which should net 8ths in Divine and Arcane spells
- Every hit on an enemy reduces their natural armor or armor bonus by 1 (Destruction Devotion), and also boosts your attack roll by 1 (Crushing Strike). Only your first few attacks against a new opponennt have a chance at missing. If an opponent somehow gets to a second turn (which I doubt), they're starting with much lower AC than before.
- Rough damage calcs: STR (5) + DEX (10) + 6 (Fighter Feats) + 9 (Holy Warrior) (per hit). I'd estimate that you'd hit about 90-95% of the time, and ballpark doing over 500 damage a turn against an enemy.

I have a few ideas how to optimize this more, but I think this is sufficient as a proof-of-concept.

[Lord Foul]

(Accidentally overwrote this instead of quoting it, whoops)
I had a pretty fun gish tank build
Human Dragonborn Crusader 5/Ruby knight vindicator 10/crusader 5//cleric (spontaneous, cloistered) 3/church inquisitor 2/cleric 1/dragon shamen 4/cleric 1/dragon shamen 4/contemplative 2/divine oracle 3

Results in full BaB, full clerical progression, 20th initiator level six domains (knowledge, protection, mobility, inquisitor, Oracle, storms) all of which, plus the cures are added directly to my spells known, mitigating the downsides of being a spontaneous caster. To be clear, that's more spells known a level beforepicking my standard spells known, than a sorcerer would have after doing so
immunity to charms, disease, paralysis, sleep, frightful presence,
Evasion except it works in armor
Trap sense, slippery mind
Several ways to passively heal so I rarely have to take actions in combat to heal, because using actions to heal means I'm not using actions to prevent damage.

Good damage, amazing durability, decent skills, decent to good mobility

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Personally, I think a gish is any magical character who, in combat, primarily uses magic to be a better beatstick. This can actually be decently high-op since direct damage starts coming back into vogue, and gishing fully exploits full casters' great buffs. The value of a gish relative to a dedicated full caster depends on how many lost caster levels there are, and in gestalt there generally aren't many.
But the build - whether caster//martial or caster//caster - needs to come out of the gate strong. By level 2 at the latest, the party needs to feel that this character is carrying their weight, and isn't running on fumes after 10 encounters.Wait, ten encounters? Is the hypothetical campaign a fantasy version of Stalingrad, by chance? Frankly, most characters proposed here, including the full-BaB ones, are dying or running away before 10 (high op) encounters at level 2. This is, quite simply, due to HP attrition. For example: Suppose I swapped Archivist out with Warblade in my build (so it's Wizard/Incant/Halruaan//Warblade) - INT synergy, concentration synergy, action advantages, etc. Nice, right? But no healing. Strikes all day, but that doesn't matter if he's dead. ~23 max HP won't cut it for 10 encounters. You might have divine casting friends, but as you noted they run out of spells well before 10 encounters are up. No wands of lesser vigor at level 2, either.

If we're adding in constraints such as "survive prolonged wars of attrition at level 2" then I'd change Archivist X to Crusader 1/Archivist X, take the Martial Spirit stance, and burn two feats on Stone Power and Wild Cohort. The cost is 1 level of Archivist spell progression and two feats. The benefit is some decent early-game strikes and much more durability than a typical fighter-mage, enough at least to plausibly survive until Metamagic Effect comes online.

[Anthrowhale]

I think it's possible to create a gish that is cleave master. A cleave master needs to inflict as much damage as possible with as much reach as possible so as to mow down as many opponents as possible.

Expanding on the earlier build I made consider:
Barbarian 1/Duskblade 13/Knight Protector 3/Ranger 3//Archivist 3/Church Inquisitor 2/Mystic Wanderer 1/Spelldancer 1/Hathran 5/Contemplative 1/Dweomerkeeper 4/Wizard 1/Contemplative 2

The feats are:
Human: Ethran //prereq
1. Ocular spell //Persistomancer
Duskblade 2: Combat Casting //prereq
Pegleg graft: Mobility //prereq
3. Persistent Spell //Persistomancer
Otyugh Hole: Iron Will //prereq
6. Leadership //prereq
Extended Persistent Ocular Heroics[Dodge, Cleave, Great Cleave, Mounted Combat, Power Attack] // prereqs
Extended Persistent Favor of the Martyr: Endurance
9. Arcane Mastery //suck the uncertainty out of Otiluke's Suppressing Field
12. Initiate of Mystra //Cast (Greater) Anyspell as often as desired
15. Spell Mastery //prereq
18. Uncanny Forethought //making casting time a standard action to qualify for Supernatural Spell

With this build, you can use Holy Transformation+Draconic Polymorph[Marilith] then cast Girallon's Blessing to have 8 arms while wielding a Heavy (Magic of Faerun) Glaive modified to support use by all 8 arms (as per Savage Species). Add in Wraith Strike, Bite of Werebear, Giant Size, Aura of Vitality, and Greater Magic Weapon. The strength ends up being:
94=29(base)+8(Draconic Polymorph)+4(Aura of Vitality, Morale)+32(Giant Size, Size)+16(Bite of the Werebear, Enhancement)+5(inherent) for a +42 strength bonus.
The colossal heavy glaive does 426=12d6(base)+5(enhancement)+189(strength)+40(pow er attack)+150(Channeled Harm or Heal), which can be reduced by 75 with a will save.

This is usually enough to mow through opponents, which can be done pretty much indefinitely between great cleave, the Knight Protector's Supreme Cleave, colossal size, reach, and Otiluke's suppressing field taking out all spell based defenses of opponents.

If that's not enough, Dweomerkeeper + Uncanny Forethought + Rashemi Spirit Magic enables the creation of an Ice Assassin army of clones of an Ice Assassin of you who can share in all these spells.

Perhaps more ludicrous to consider is what happens with Erupt + Uncanny Forethought + Channel spell.

[Lord Foul]

I think it's possible to create a gish that is cleave master. A cleave master needs to inflict as much damage as possible with as much reach as possible so as to mow down as many opponents as possible.

Expanding on the earlier build I made consider:
Barbarian 1/Duskblade 13/Knight Protector 3/Ranger 3//Archivist 3/Church Inquisitor 2/Mystic Wanderer 1/Spelldancer 1/Hathran 5/Contemplative 1/Dweomerkeeper 4/Wizard 1/Contemplative 2

The feats are:
Human: Ethran //prereq
1. Ocular spell //Persistomancer
Duskblade 2: Combat Casting //prereq
Pegleg graft: Mobility //prereq
3. Persistent Spell //Persistomancer
Otyugh Hole: Iron Will //prereq
6. Leadership //prereq
Extended Persistent Ocular Heroics[Dodge, Cleave, Great Cleave, Mounted Combat, Power Attack] // prereqs
Extended Persistent Favor of the Martyr: Endurance
9. Arcane Mastery //suck the uncertainty out of Otiluke's Suppressing Field
12. Initiate of Mystra //Cast (Greater) Anyspell as often as desired
15. Spell Mastery //prereq
18. Uncanny Forethought //making casting time a standard action to qualify for Supernatural Spell

With this build, you can use Holy Transformation+Draconic Polymorph[Marilith] then cast Girallon's Blessing to have 8 arms while wielding a Heavy (Magic of Faerun) Glaive modified to support use by all 8 arms (as per Savage Species). Add in Wraith Strike, Bite of Werebear, Giant Size, Aura of Vitality, and Greater Magic Weapon. The strength ends up being:
94=29(base)+8(Draconic Polymorph)+4(Aura of Vitality, Morale)+32(Giant Size, Size)+16(Bite of the Werebear, Enhancement)+5(inherent) for a +42 strength bonus.
The colossal heavy glaive does 426=12d6(base)+5(enhancement)+189(strength)+40(pow er attack)+150(Channeled Harm or Heal), which can be reduced by 75 with a will save.

This is usually enough to mow through opponents, which can be done pretty much indefinitely between great cleave, the Knight Protector's Supreme Cleave, colossal size, reach, and Otiluke's suppressing field taking out all spell based defenses of opponents.

If that's not enough, Dweomerkeeper + Uncanny Forethought + Rashemi Spirit Magic enables the creation of an Ice Assassin army of clones of an Ice Assassin of you who can share in all these spells.

Perhaps more ludicrous to consider is what happens with Erupt + Uncanny Forethought + Channel spell.

If I might ask. What point does the wizard dip provide to this build?

[Anthrowhale]

If I might ask. What point does the wizard dip provide to this build?

It's a prereq for Spell Mastery which is a prereq for Uncanny Forethought which is a prereq for unlocking use of DweomerKeeper's Supernatural Spell by reducing the casting duration to a standard action. On the upside, Rashemi Spirit Magic + Wizard 1 + Archivist 17 means we can spontaneously cast any scribed Wizard or Archivist spell. (You probably can't do that with just Uncanny Forethought according to a rules clarification/update in the Rules Compendium.)

[Quertus]

Wait, ten encounters? Is the hypothetical campaign a fantasy version of Stalingrad, by chance? Frankly, most characters proposed here, including the full-BaB ones, are dying or running away before 10 (high op) encounters at level 2. This is, quite simply, due to HP attrition. For example: Suppose I swapped Archivist out with Warblade in my build (so it's Wizard/Incant/Halruaan//Warblade) - INT synergy, concentration synergy, action advantages, etc. Nice, right? But no healing. Strikes all day, but that doesn't matter if he's dead. ~23 max HP won't cut it for 10 encounters. You might have divine casting friends, but as you noted they run out of spells well before 10 encounters are up. No wands of lesser vigor at level 2, either.

If we're adding in constraints such as "survive prolonged wars of attrition at level 2" then I'd change Archivist X to Crusader 1/Archivist X, take the Martial Spirit stance, and burn two feats on Stone Power and Wild Cohort. The cost is 1 level of Archivist spell progression and two feats. The benefit is some decent early-game strikes and much more durability than a typical fighter-mage, enough at least to plausibly survive until Metamagic Effect comes online.

Well, I didn't say 10 high-op encounters :smallwink:

But I did say high-op character.

Troll blooded, DMM Persist Lesser Vigor, Crusader, immunity to damage (maybe), and, yes, even Wand of Lesser Vigor (partially charged, bought with group funds, bought with funds from underwater basket weaving (no, that potentially breaks "arbitrary"), or party-crafted with metamagic reducers (which, "party crafting" costs XP, meaning more (but not arbitrarily more - there is a defined limit to your funds to craft with) time spent adventuring and more treasure / wealth acquired each level), or bought with stacked price reducers and/or "only works for" "curses") should all be viable by level 2. As should a Dark archer, using the distance penalty to spot check rules to solo the world (until they run out of arrows ("unlimited / makes its own arrows" seems to clock in at around +1k. But you'd probably need to be a member of a mixed-level party for a party member to be able to Craft it for you cheaply enough that you could afford it at 2nd)).

And that's not counting quasilycanthrope, finding a friendly were-whatever (say, bear) to bite you and *technically* be "2nd level" (although this is almost certainly a highly suboptimal choice later), or any of my own personal brands of cheese that I've never seen anyone even mention.

There's *lots* of ways to be really… likely to be able to keep going.

But, if the character is out of juice on *offense*, the party may still question the value of bringing them along.

Part of the expectation of "Gish" (IME) is that you aren't limited to a 15-minute workday (like a pure caster usually is (considered to be)).

Also, a lot of modern(ish) video games run on the "lots of small encounters" mindset, IME - perhaps it'll make a comeback in RPGs.

[Lord Foul]

To those who are better than me at knowing what optimization thresholds are, is my crusader/cleric build good? I know it was fun, and in "actual play" he was probably the most effective member of the party but is it actually high Op

[Morphic tide]

To those who are better than me at knowing what optimization thresholds are, is my crusader/cleric build good? I know it was fun, and in "actual play" he was probably the most effective member of the party but is it actually high Op
...I don't think you're supposed to be getting spellcasting progression from the extra Cleric levels overlapping Ruby Knight Vindicator. And Spontaneous Cleric is really trash for hard optimization unless you're hammering Mystra privileges, for the same reason Sorcerer is terrible. Clerics are built on full list access, surrendering that is a Bad Idea.

Edit: Double-checked RKV, you're mis-timing things pretty hard as you want a Cleric level at 6th and 11th to precisely plug the gaps of the progression, not delay that recovery.

[Lord Foul]

...I don't think you're supposed to be getting spellcasting progression from the extra Cleric levels overlapping Ruby Knight Vindicator. And Spontaneous Cleric is really trash for hard optimization unless you're hammering Mystra privileges, for the same reason Sorcerer is terrible. Clerics are built on full list access, surrendering that is a Bad Idea.

Edit: Double-checked RKV, you're mis-timing things pretty hard as you want a Cleric level at 6th and 11th to precisely plug the gaps of the progression, not delay that recovery.

... That is at 6th and 11th cleric 3+Church inquisitor 2 is 5, next level is cleric for 6. Then four levels of dragon shamen makes level 10 then cleric at 11.
And yes normally spontaneous cleric is bad, but I had 6 domains (knowledge, protection, nobility, storm Oracle and inquisition), all of which added directly to my spells known. Hell, those alone provided more spells known than a sorcerer before I actually started picking and that's without counting cure spells which I also get as free spells known. I had a plethora of options with my spells. On the off chance a spell wasn't known to me, I could still use scrolls.
That being said, what do you mean by mystra privileges?

[Morphic tide]

... That is at 6th and 11th cleric 3+Church inquisitor 2 is 5, next level is cleric for 6. Then four levels of dragon shamen makes level 10 then cleric at 11.
And yes normally spontaneous cleric is bad, but I had 6 domains (knowledge, protection, nobility, storm Oracle and inquisition), all of which added directly to my spells known. Hell, those alone provided more spells known than a sorcerer before I actually started picking and that's without counting cure spells which I also get as free spells known. I had a plethora of options with my spells. On the off chance a spell wasn't known to me, I could still use scrolls.
That being said, what do you mean by mystra privileges?
...You accidentally edited the post with the build into a duplicate of this comment, so I can't double check, and you can't put two PRC levels on the same level. I did not notice Cleric immediately following Church Inquisitor, which is the one way to do it.

As for Mystra privileges, there's a few extremely ridiculous shenanigans with either Patron Deity Mystra or Magic Domain, particularly the Anyspell line in the Magic Domain replicating any lower-level spell than their associated slot without the restrictions Shadow Casting uses.

[Darg]

Sorcerer 5/Sand shaper 1/ Rainbow Servant 10/Abjurant Champion 4//Spirit Shaman 5/Sentinel of Bharrai 10/Spirit Shaman 6-10.

You can as a Su ability at-will change into a bear at 8th and dire bear at 12th.

You get access to the cleric spell list at 16th which is usable by the spirit shaman.

Sand Shaper drastically increases spells known for both sorcerer and spirit shaman. This has a side effect of drastically increasing the spells spirit shaman can retrieve each day. As your sorcerer side can use the desert insight spells, your spirit shaman side is free to select any other spell they have access to. Once you reach 16, this also includes the entire spell list. The arcane preparation feat gives access to sanctified magic for both sides.

Cleric spells means divine power.

At level 20 you get access to the spirit shaman's guide magic ability.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

spirit lion totem 1/Monk 11/full BAB x 8//Wizard5/Abjurant Champion 5/Incantitrix 10

You get +20 BAB at 20, Your fists can do 12d8 damage with greater mighty wallop, +2 extra attacks, Carmendine Monk feat lets your monk abilities key off int, A certain pair of sandals doubles your UAS damage on a charge, Incantatrix shenanigans, etc. This is simply a blow things up build.

[Quertus]

you can't put two PRC levels on the same level.

Normally, you would be correct; however,

I was going to include other minor criteria (and I'd best mention "can choose prestige classes on both sides of the gestalt") but let's leave the floor open for now. What does a playground high-op Gestalt Gish look like?

I explicitly allowed this exception to RAW in the OP.

My previous polling of the Playground indicated that there was not a clear "state of the practice" - some people played with that rule, others intentionally ignored it. Shrug.

So I explicitly called it out as legal for this thread for people to put prestige classes on both sides on the gestalt simultaneously.

[Lord Foul]

Well, in that case I could swap two of the level of cleric, one level of divine Oracle and one level of dragon shaman on my build for two levels of prestige Paladin, two levels of sovereign speaker,
Plus the holy mount feat (and then if the dm accepts that level of cheese, the battle blessing feat) which grants two extra domains, charisma to saves, a small pool of extra healing, a second smite and a mount as good as a 25th level paladin's.

[Emperor Tippy]

Factotum 11 (Cunning Surge and Cunning Breach, letting you take extra actions and ignore resistance (including Spell Immunity) respectively)/X 9 (depends on exactly what you want, if nothing else then Fighter for feats to Chaos Shuffle into more Inspiration or whatever is always good).

The other half should be Psion if you are allowed to (ab)use Psychic Chirurgery and Spell to Power Erudites, otherwise Wizard is a better choice.

The first Psion trick is to find another psionic creature (worst case, make an Ice Assassin of yourself via scroll), use Psychic Reformation to have it reselect all of its Powers Known (and spend its feats all on Expanded Knowledge for more), and then use Psychic Chirurgery to teach you the powers. Once it runs out of XP, level drain it down so that its XP is set to half of the lower levels total and continue (assuming your DM won't let you Thought Bottle an Ice Assassin). This can get you basically all the Psionic powers. If your DM allows StP Erudites it can get you all the spells as well.

If your DM won't allow all the powers, Wizard is better than Psion. Of course, what you do from there depends on exactly what you want. If you want to be primarily a caster then you use Factotum as the support with Cunning Surge allowing effectively free Quicken and Cunning Breach letting you ignore SR. Fill out the rest of the Factotum side with beneficial utility stuffs. If you want the casting to be more of the support then a Wizard/Incantatrix/Archmage with Persistent Spell fun being used to support a Rogue 1/ Factotum 8/ Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk 2/ Assassin 1/ Telflammar Shadowlord 4/ X 4 can also be quite nasty. In that case, you use Incantatrix for all the buffs made to last all day. Persist a Dimension Jumper, a Greater Dimension Jumper, and Shapechange into anything with At-Will Greater Teleport. That lets you go Swift, Move, and then turn every Cunning Surge into another Full Attack.

There is also the lulz fun of Ninja 8. Find your foe while on the Ethereal Plane (Invisibility plus Mindblank is nice), and then do a Ghost Strike will all the damage you can cram on. That one can be made into a phenomenal assassin.

The easiest "High-Op" gestalt is just Feat Rogue//Wizard with all of the Fighter bonus feats Chaos Shuffled into useful things.

---
Higher Optimization Gestalt does one of three things:
1) Use the non-caster half to enhance the caster half (such as using Factotum 8 for Cunning Surge), this is basically just a caster with some extra abilities.
2) Use the caster half to enhance the non-caster half (such as using Incantatrix to put all of the Persistent buffs onto, effectively, another build).
3) Use the gestalt to do realize an idea that neither half can do alone. This generally requires a great deal more specificity in what you want and can end up with things like seventeen classes being used over the 20 levels of both sides.

[Arael666]

- Lots of mention of persisting spells, which is a must for super-high-op gestalt gishing.

This is a personal list I tend to use for my persistomancer gishs. It's far from complete and it's composed enterely by spells that I like, so they are not always necessarily "the best", but they tend to be powerfull. A number of spells were already mentioned, but I'll just post my list entirely:

Lvl 1

Cléric
Divine Favor

Wiz/Sor
Expeditious Retreat
Shield
Accelerated Movement
Critical Strike

Paladin
Silverbeard

Lvl 2

Cleric
Elation
Cloud of Knives
Stone Fist

Wiz/Sor
Wraithstrike
Alter Self
Detect Thoughts
Scimitar of Sand
Claws of Darkness
Suffer the Flesh

Paladin
Righteous Fury

Lvl 3

Cleric
Prayer
Vigor, Mass Lesser
Cloak of Bravery
Vision of the Omniscient Eye
Aura of Cold, Lesser
Channeled Divine Shield
Divine Retaliation
Corona of Cold
Ice Axe
Sonorous Hum
Grace

Wiz/Sor
Devil's Eye
Blink
Evard's Menacing Tentacles
Bite of the Wererat
Tremorsense
Sonorous Hum


Lvl 4

Cleric
Divine Power
Freedom of Movement
Recitation
Consumptive Field
Positive Energy Aura
Holy Transformation, Lesser
True Prayer of the Chosen

Wiz/Sor
Fire Shield
Invisibility, Greater
Mirror Image, Greater
Trollshape
Bite of the Werewolf
Forceward
Ray Deflection
Ruin Delver’s Fortune
Aerial Alacrity

Lvl 5

Cleric
Righteous Might
Dragon Breath
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful

Wiz/Sor
Shard Blessing Aura
Skin of the Steel Dragon
Blink, Greater
Anticold Sphere
Acid Sheath
Bite of the Wereboar

Lvl 6

Cleric
Spiritual Guardian
Stone Body

Wiz/Sor
Bite of the Weretiger

Lvl 7

Cleric
Consumptive Field, Greater
Evil Glare
Holy Star
Holy Transformation

Wiz/Sor
Retributive Enervation
Aspect of the Platinum Dragon
Bite of the Werebear
Kiss of the Vampire

Wu Jen
Giant Size




Spells you don't need to persist at all, in part due to high CL:


Magic Vestment; Magic Weapon, Greater; Heart of Air; Heart of Water; Heart of Earth; Heart of Fire; Barkskin; Overland Flight; Contingency; Superior Resistance; Create Magic Tatoo; Elemental Body; Luminous Armor; Luminous Armor, Greater; Mind Blank; Disobedience; Energy Absorbtion; Protection from Arrows; Greater Mighty Wallop;

[Psyren]

Unarmed Swordsage // Dominant Ideal Ardent. Wis-SAD, all good saves, good at every level, take all the actions, rebuild yourself as a standard action depending on what you need to deal with that day.