Steeping Magic Items in Dragon Hoards

[Thunderous Mojo]

Per James Wyatt's interview:
Chapter Two

“The second chapter contains a handful of new spells, most of which we previewed in Unearthed Arcana. It also contains new magic items that have ties to dragons.

“If DMs and players really embrace this book then they’re going to be seeing a lot of dragons in their campaigns. One new concept we introduce here is hoard items. These are magic items that become more powerful when they’re steeped in a dragon’s hoard.

“If you find an item in a blue wyrmling’s hoard, for example, and then several levels later you use that item to kill an adult red dragon and you steep it in that hoard, it may become more powerful because it’s the hoard of an adult dragon. The item might also change its characteristics slightly, because it’s been affected by a red dragon’s magic instead of a blue dragon.”

I'm trying to withhold judgement until I see the finished product, but my initial impression is that "Steeping Items" seems silly and reminds me too much of Magic the Gathering.

"If you use Treasure to cast this spell, the creature gets a +1/+1 per Treasure spent".

I'm fine with items 'powering' up when certain conditions are met, such as slaying a dragon, befriending a dragon, etc....(I've homebrewed items like this myself).....but 'Treasure Steeping'...........kinda hard not to laugh.

I like tea...but come on. Does anyone have anymore information on how this mechanic is supposed to work? In general it just seems silly.

[Millstone85]

FToD is supposed to give a reason why dragons think that piled-up treasure is the best bed. Depending on that reason, the steeping mechanic may or may not be silly.

[Thunderous Mojo]

We, likely, already know the reason: Dragons are 'special beings' that exist simultaneously on all Prime Material Worlds. Most Dragons are not aware of this....the most powerful are aware.

That idea..seems cool. I'm willing to entertain it.

Frodo Baggins burying Sting in Smaug's hoard for 4 Long Rests to get an Extra Plus on the weapon...seems goofy.

I like the idea of dragon lairs being places of mystical power...so I want to have faith.........but steeping Magic items like tea strikes me as too similar to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8vOxDK-3Uc

[Millstone85]

We, likely, already know the reason: Dragons are 'special beings' that exist simultaneously on all Prime Material Worlds. Most Dragons are not aware of this....the most powerful are aware.

That idea..seems cool. I'm willing to entertain it.So am I, but we do not yet know how the hoard ties into this concept. My guess is that it acts as a dragonsight focus for its sleeping owner.


Frodo Baggins burying Sting in Smaug's hoard for 4 Long Rests to get an Extra Plus on the weapon...seems goofy.As I understand it, it would require Sting to have been part of a previous hoard which durably attuned it to draconic power. Otherwise, it is not a "hoard item".

[hifidelity2]

To me "Steeping" would be "bathing it in the blood of" - I just think they are keeping it open so not to offend anyone


Now that blood could come from the slain Dragon or it could (lets say you have befriended it / doing work for it) be given voluntarily - The Dragon cuts itself and drops the blood onto the item

[MrStabby]

To me "Steeping" would be "bathing it in the blood of" - I just think they are keeping it open so not to offend anyone


Now that blood could come from the slain Dragon or it could (lets say you have befriended it / doing work for it) be given voluntarily - The Dragon cuts itself and drops the blood onto the item

Nah, that is what basking is for:

https://www.etymonline.com/word/bask

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm trying to withhold judgement until I see the finished product, but my initial impression is that "Steeping Items" seems silly and reminds me too much of Magic the Gathering. {snip}
I like tea...but come on. Does anyone have anymore information on how this mechanic is supposed to work? In general it just seems silly. Power creep thanks to "we need to cross pollinate our brands!" Blah. Unless fusing takes decades, no thanks.

.but steeping Magic items like tea strikes me as too similar to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8vOxDK-3Uc Heh, something like that.

[Glorthindel]

Sadly, it's not even the silliest thing in that blurb, the bit about Mutiverse echoes rings a bit looney tunes to me. I am picturing Dragons Highlandering their way across the planes to ensure they don't get "there can be only one"'d by another planes version of themselves. And how does that work with the Dragons sworn to work with the Gith? Does Tiamat assign the whole wing of alternate-plane Dragons to them like a set of Paranoia clones?

[JonBeowulf]

Power creep thanks to "we need to cross pollinate our brands!" Blah. Unless fusing takes decades, no thanks.
I agree it needs to take a long time. You're not just fusing a Perfect Diamond into a slot on your favorite weapon (or whatever), you're changing the nature of the weapon (or whatever). I can see it for the history for a piece of cool loot but not really a mechanic for PCs... or you're opening yourself up for a whine and cheese party.

Sadly, it's not even the silliest thing in that blurb, the bit about Mutiverse echoes rings a bit looney tunes to me. I am picturing Dragons Highlandering their way across the planes to ensure they don't get "there can be only one"'d by another planes version of themselves.
Jet Li did this very thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_One_(2001_film)

[KorvinStarmast]

Sadly, it's not even the silliest thing in that blurb, the bit about Mutiverse echoes rings a bit looney tunes to me. I am picturing Dragons Highlandering their way across the planes to ensure they don't get "there can be only one"'d by another planes version of themselves. And how does that work with the Dragons sworn to work with the Gith? Does Tiamat assign the whole wing of alternate-plane Dragons to them like a set of Paranoia clones? Wait, what? They forgot to think this through before hitting the print button? :smallbiggrin:

[Segev]

Just from this thread's description, I prefer the notion that an item is magical from steeping in the hoard in which you find it to the notion that a now dead dragon's hoard can be used to upgrade an item you introduce to it post-death for a few days.

From dealing the dragon with it and bathing it in the dragon's blood, perhaps. But not just letting it sit with the rest of a pile of shiny stuff that used to be a dragon's bed.

[Unoriginal]

An item getting power due to being in a dragon hoard and/or helping best a dragon is thematic as hell, and fits the establidhed lore. Don't see anything silly about that by itself.

If the mechanics are bad then it'll be a waste, but I like the concept.

[PhantomSoul]

Frodo Baggins burying Sting in Smaug's hoard for 4 Long Rests to get an Extra Plus on the weapon...seems goofy.

I like the idea of dragon lairs being places of mystical power...so I want to have faith.........but steeping Magic items like tea strikes me as too similar to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8vOxDK-3Uc

But maybe it's their solution to "you don't want that many magic items to float around" (or "+x items are the worst magic items"); if they infuse while there and the magic drops afterwards, you're not tossing so many magic items or as strong magic items in your world as an unfortunate consequence of having a dragon (hoard).

[Segev]

An item getting power due to being in a dragon hoard and/or helping best a dragon is thematic as hell, and fits the establidhed lore. Don't see anything silly about that by itself.

If the mechanics are bad then it'll be a waste, but I like the concept.

As described in the opening post, it sounds like the method of empowering them is planting them in the hoard AFTER killing the dragon, then coming back in a few days. That's the part I find silly.

[quindraco]

Sadly, it's not even the silliest thing in that blurb, the bit about Mutiverse echoes rings a bit looney tunes to me. I am picturing Dragons Highlandering their way across the planes to ensure they don't get "there can be only one"'d by another planes version of themselves. And how does that work with the Dragons sworn to work with the Gith? Does Tiamat assign the whole wing of alternate-plane Dragons to them like a set of Paranoia clones?

1) Not at all how echoes are described as being. All echoes are (or start on) on the same plane - the Prime Material.
2) The bit about reuniting strongly implies every echo of a given dragon has to consent simultaneously to join into a greatwyrm. Remeber, the prereq is making contact. I bet you the actual process is a magic ritual every echo has to perform simultaneously, using their respective hoards as foci.

[quindraco]

Per James Wyatt's interview:
Chapter Two

“The second chapter contains a handful of new spells, most of which we previewed in Unearthed Arcana. It also contains new magic items that have ties to dragons.

“If DMs and players really embrace this book then they’re going to be seeing a lot of dragons in their campaigns. One new concept we introduce here is hoard items. These are magic items that become more powerful when they’re steeped in a dragon’s hoard.

“If you find an item in a blue wyrmling’s hoard, for example, and then several levels later you use that item to kill an adult red dragon and you steep it in that hoard, it may become more powerful because it’s the hoard of an adult dragon. The item might also change its characteristics slightly, because it’s been affected by a red dragon’s magic instead of a blue dragon.”

I'm trying to withhold judgement until I see the finished product, but my initial impression is that "Steeping Items" seems silly and reminds me too much of Magic the Gathering.

"If you use Treasure to cast this spell, the creature gets a +1/+1 per Treasure spent".

I'm fine with items 'powering' up when certain conditions are met, such as slaying a dragon, befriending a dragon, etc....(I've homebrewed items like this myself).....but 'Treasure Steeping'...........kinda hard not to laugh.

I like tea...but come on. Does anyone have anymore information on how this mechanic is supposed to work? In general it just seems silly.

That line at the end about dragon color mattering smacks of this mechanic being only for new items, not for old ones, so there's hope for the items in question being curated appropriately. For example, here's a credible item; I'll use numerical age ratings, so 1 for Wyrmling, 2 for Young, 3 for Adult, 4 for Ancient, maybe 5 for greatwyrm but I have no idea how that'll work:

Draconic Orb of Spells
Requires attunement, requires steeping
When you finish a long rest while attuned to this item, you can select a number of spells equal to your Charisma modifier of a level no more than Age-1 (0 means cantrips). This selection remains the orb's selection until you change it or your attunement ends. While attuned, you can cast each of these spells once without consuming a spell slot, and you regain the ability to do so when you complete a long rest; if the spell requires any Material components that do not have a cost, you do not need them when casting in this way. Your spellcasting ability for these spells is Charisma. The spells chosen must deal damage of the same type as the damaging breath weapon of the dragon whose hoard this orb was steeped in.

You can immediately see why a dragon would keep this in their hoard, and why dragonslayers would want it for themselves.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Sadly, it's not even the silliest thing in that blurb, the bit about Mutiverse echoes rings a bit looney tunes to me.

I don't mind this 'take' on dragons. I won't use it in every campaign, but it gives dragons a nice scope....even the normally dim witted White Dragons can become more effectively perfidious, if Enlightened White Dragons can access the data from their alternative echoes.

Enlightened Dragons, essentially, have access to Super Computer level simulations to guide their actions...better than Super Computer accuracy, actually.


But maybe it's their solution to "you don't want that many magic items to float around" (or "+x items are the worst magic items"); if they infuse while there and the magic drops afterwards, you're not tossing so many magic items or as strong magic items in your world as an unfortunate consequence of having a dragon (hoard).

Steeping...as a description of this process, I just find aesthetically displeasing.

I also suspect players will start 'farming' Dragons and Dragon Hoards to create better loot. (In 1e we often attempted to farm dragons, to subdue the dragons as mounts.)

While a game that features 'Industrial Scale Dragon Hoard Magic Item Manufacturing", might be fun....broadly speaking, I don't think that would be most games 'Cup of Tea'.

Also, why wouldn't dragons just equip their servitors with '48 Hour Steeped Cold Brew' +1 Weapons? Conceivably, one might get Magic item proliferation, as tribes of Bugbears volunteer to serve dragons, so the tribe can get access to a constant supply of 'Artisanal Steeped' Magic. 🃏

[PhantomSoul]

Steeping...as a description of this process, I just find aesthetically displeasing.

Yeah, I get why the word could be used (but the analogy seems completely backwards since you should be making the hoard more mundane!), but "bathed" or "basked" seems better. I could see "cleansed" or "purified" or something similar (but seems more like the dragon cult's description).

[loki_ragnarock]

... so the most effective way to produce magic items, for the long term thinkers, is to set the handful of things you actually care about in a treasure caravan that goes near a dragon's territory, collecting the insurance money, waiting, and then sending adventurers to retrieve those items?

[Chronos]

I can understand, thematically, an item becoming more powerful, or even becoming magical when it wasn't before, from a dragon sleeping on it for a hundred years. But if that's what they're going for, why does it need mechanics at all? It's not like PCs are making a before-and-after comparison. You beat the dragon, and you find a powerful magic item in its hoard. How'd it get there? How did it become powerful? Mechanically, it doesn't matter: It's there because dragons have treasures in their hoards, and you got it because you beat the dragon. Attach whatever backstory you'd like to it.

If, on the other hand, it's something that adventurers can do a before-and-after comparison for, then it just gets silly, and serves no purpose other than power creep.

[KorvinStarmast]

For example, here's a credible item; I'll use numerical age ratings, so 1 for Wyrmling, 2 for Young, 3 for Adult, 4 for Ancient, maybe 5 for greatwyrm but I have no idea how that'll work:

Draconic Orb of Spells
Requires attunement, requires steeping
When you finish a long rest while attuned to this item, you can select a number of spells equal to your Charisma modifier of a level no more than Age-1 (0 means cantrips). This selection remains the orb's selection until you change it or your attunement ends. While attuned, you can cast each of these spells once without consuming a spell slot, and you regain the ability to do so when you complete a long rest; if the spell requires any Material components that do not have a cost, you do not need them when casting in this way. Your spellcasting ability for these spells is Charisma. The spells chosen must deal damage of the same type as the damaging breath weapon of the dragon whose hoard this orb was steeped in.

You can immediately see why a dragon would keep this in their hoard, and why dragonslayers would want it for themselves. *golf clap* I believe I'll be stealing that idea.

Yeah, I get why the word could be used (but the analogy seems completely backwards since you should be making the hoard more mundane!), but "bathed" or "basked" seems better. I could see "cleansed" or "purified" or something similar (but seems more like the dragon cult's description).Soaking. Stewing. Simmering. Bathing. Sautee ...


I can understand, thematically, an item becoming more powerful, or even becoming magical when it wasn't before, from a dragon sleeping on it for a hundred years. But if that's what they're going for, why does it need mechanics at all? It's not like PCs are making a before-and-after comparison. You beat the dragon, and you find a powerful magic item in its hoard. How'd it get there? How did it become powerful? Mechanically, it doesn't matter: It's there because dragons have treasures in their hoards, and you got it because you beat the dragon. Attach whatever backstory you'd like to it.

If, on the other hand, it's something that adventurers can do a before-and-after comparison for, then it just gets silly, and serves no purpose other than power creep. Splat books have a long history of adding things that have little to no value beyond power creep. (I'll be a real curmudgeon and point to 7-9 level spells added to the game in *Greyhawk*. Did we really need wish to be a learnable spell?)

[Waterdeep Merch]

Whatever happened to the time honored tradition of quenching your new magic sword in the hot blood of a dragon's heart? Kids these days with their Lipton, I swear.

[Telwar]

... so the most effective way to produce magic items, for the long term thinkers, is to set the handful of things you actually care about in a treasure caravan that goes near a dragon's territory, collecting the insurance money, waiting, and then sending adventurers to retrieve those items?

I suddenly have a vision of a dragon who uses this to enrich themselves greatly. They commission items, and then arrange for them to wind up in other, lesser dragons' hoards. Once they're removed (with or without the cooperation of the leaders), the items then steep in the dragon's hoard, maybe repeating movement a few times for more pluses.

Maybe they sell some of the items for more gold ("I always wanted an ottoman made from a solid ruby"), or have the now +14 Hackmaster to enjoy sleeping on.

[Millstone85]

I don't mind this 'take' on dragons. I won't use it in every campaign, but it gives dragons a nice scope....even the normally dim witted White Dragons can become more effectively perfidious, if Enlightened White Dragons can access the data from their alternative echoes.

Enlightened Dragons, essentially, have access to Super Computer level simulations to guide their actions...better than Super Computer accuracy, actually.To be clear, we are talking about a Krynnish dragon, an Oerthly dragon and a Torilian dragon discovering that, in some mystical way tying to the origins of the Material Plane, they are actually all the same dragon. Maybe they share a soul, a destiny, a true name, or something equally intangible.

So while they might compare their experiences encountering adventurers from their respective worlds, it is unlikely to look like multiple simulations of the same encounter.


Also, why wouldn't dragons just equip their servitors with '48 Hour Steeped Cold Brew' +1 Weapons? Conceivably, one might get Magic item proliferation, as tribes of Bugbears volunteer to serve dragons, so the tribe can get access to a constant supply of 'Artisanal Steeped' Magic.
... so the most effective way to produce magic items, for the long term thinkers, is to set the handful of things you actually care about in a treasure caravan that goes near a dragon's territory, collecting the insurance money, waiting, and then sending adventurers to retrieve those items?
I can understand, thematically, an item becoming more powerful, or even becoming magical when it wasn't before, from a dragon sleeping on it for a hundred years. But if that's what they're going for, why does it need mechanics at all?Note that, in the example provided, an item is found in a dragon's hoard and later steeped in a different dragon's hoard. What I am getting from this is that it might indeed have taken years for that item to get the "hoard item" property, which adventurers will only care about if the campaign involves further encounters with dragons.

[Unoriginal]

I'm pretty sure that this feature will either be for a specific group of magic items or for a template, not something for all and every item.

Also, no, an item gaining power as you progress in a campaign is *not* power creep. There is no indicator that those dragon hoard items will be stronger than their equivalently-difficult-to-obtain counterparts from the DMG or any other book, so there is no reason to claim power creep.

[MrStabby]

Hmm. I quite like the idea of power fading as well. A +1 sword in a horse is like a +2 sword until it has been out of the horde for a week. Giving the party an incentive to push forwards hard before their power seeps away might help regulate adventuring days (whilst also providing the opportunity to replace their fading items).