Stars druid dip for wizard or warlock

[Mitchellnotes]

There was a recent thread about the stars druid that really got me thinking about the advantages of a stars druid dip for warlock or wizard. Usually, when thinking of dips for these classes, cleric 1 at first level is the idea. I think the druid 2 dip changes this.

So the reason to dip stars 2 is to get: medium armor and shield proficiency (though armor could be limited), the constellation form (for the benefit to concentration and to int/wis checks), and for warlocks, a couple 1st level slots.

Regardless of when you multiclass into druid, you'll get the armor profs, and constellation form picks up more when you have good uses for it like good spells you don't want to lose concentration on or things like counterspells or dispel magic.

My thought is that for either warlock or wizard, the route may be going 5 or 7 levels in, dipping stars 2, then progressing the rest of the way unless you really want the armor profs, then itd be stars 1, wiz/war 5-7, then the 2nd stars level. The 5-7 split would be more about how important it is to get the 4th level spells.

Some exceptions to this may be:
Conjuror - this wouldnt be ideal as arguably the strongest benefit doesnt mean as much

Abjuration - may want to wait until after level 10. The ward can help keep concentration, and it may be better to get the level 10 feature first

In all, it isnt as advantageous for warlocks (since locks now have eldritch mind and the other aspects wouldn't benefit from from the form, but becomes a choice if someone is looking for some low level spellslots anyway)

As an aside, am i correct in thinking that the stars form would boost telekinesis as well?

[RogueJK]

As an aside, am i correct in thinking that the stars form would boost telekinesis as well?

Yep, for a Wizard, since it'd be an INT check.



Abjuration - may want to wait until after level 10. The ward can help keep concentration, and it may be better to get the level 10 feature first

I like taking the 2 level Stars dip after Abjurer 5. (Or maybe a level of Druid earlier - like after Wizard 1 or 2 - if you really need the Medium Armor and Shield proficiency earlier.) Get Counterspell and Fireball online ASAP, then dip Stars immediately.

Because as soon as you have access to both Counterspell and Dragon Form at Character Level 7 (Abjurer 5/Stars 2), you can auto-counter any spell up to Level 4 with an 18 INT or Level 5 with a 20 INT, using just a 3rd level slot. That and Dragon's Concentration Bonus are useful enough to justify the 2 level delay to the Level 10 feature.

And no matter which way you slice it with the early levels (either 5/2/5 or 10/2), from Level 12+ (Abjurer 10/Stars 2) you can auto-counter all levels of spells using just a 3rd level slot.

The main issue is that Stars 2/Abjurer X is a little MAD, needing a high INT, 13ish WIS, moderate CON, and moderate DEX. You can help that by going Tortle, to allow you to dump DEX and still have a solid AC.

Something like a Tortle with point buy:

STR 8
DEX 10
CON 13
INT 15+2
WIS 15+1
CHA 10

Abjurer 5 -> Stars 2 -> Abjurer X. Take a +1 INT half-feat like Telekinetic or Fey Touched at Abjurer 4. Take Resilient CON at Abjurer 8. AC is 17 until Level 6, then bumps to 19 once you gain shield proficiency at Level 6 (Druid 1).


But it's still workable as any other race, using point buy similar to:

STR 8
DEX 14
CON 13
INT 15+2
WIS 13+1
CHA 9
using the same feat progression as the Tortle.

It just means you'll need to take 1 level of Druid near the start (likely after Wizard 1), to take advantage of the medium armor and shield, which will delay your 3rd level spells a little bit. Your AC and WIS will be point lower than the Tortle, but you'll have better DEX and Initiative in return.

[sambojin]

Running straight to at least Wiz 5 is probably best, just for the spells and ritual casting, then figure out just when to try and put in Star 2. The problem is, every wizard level is so good, it's kind of hard to stop levelling into it.

So, I'd probably go Stars 2/Wiz X in that order. Stars Druids get a really easy start, and feel amazing by level 2, now that wildshape charges are also familiar summons or constellations or actual wildshape (there's a tonne to do for any situation), so you won't feel weak or poorly optioned by taking those first two levels. Then Wizard levels still always feel like they're giving you heaps more each time, with no dead levels for the rest of your progression.

I doubt I could stop levelling into wizard by lvl5, because that's just when they start to feel powerful, with more wizard levels being better than most things.

Picking a fairly magical race isn't too bad of an option either. The tortle AC is a bit irrelevant in some cases, druid's light/med armour and a shield proficiency with a bit of dex is usually enough. Where-as something like Firbolg racial spells/abilities give you a heap of pillars covered already, so your spell prep decisions don't feel nearly as far behind as one full spell level normally would for when your wizard levels start to kick in. . +2Int/+1Wis is doable with Tasha's stuff for reasonable starting stats.

Whilst one of the weaker options, I'd be pretty tempted to go Bladesinger for my school. Just to see what sort of use I could get out of wildshapes and archer constellation with bladesong and extra attack. Sure, it blows plenty of resources, and virtually any attack at that level will squish any CR1/4 form, but it still might be pretty fun. Laser wolves, turbo riding horses, cow super rams and wolf spider turrets are kind of good for a laugh at any level, Wizard magic is good enough without school bonuses, so I'd be happy to combine the two just to extend my fun with them a little.

[RogueJK]

So, I'd probably go Stars 2/Wiz X in that order. Stars Druids get a really easy start, and feel amazing by level 2, now that wildshape charges are also familiar summons or constellations or actual wildshape (there's a tonne to do for any situation), so you won't feel weak or poorly optioned by taking those first two levels.
...
The tortle AC is a bit irrelevant in some cases, druid's light/med armour and a shield proficiency with a bit of dex is usually enough.


The issue is that, unless you go Tortle for 16 starting WIS (or have generous stat rolls), those first 2 levels will be a bit lackluster with just a +1 or +2 spellcasting modifier from only being able to spare a 13/14 WIS due to MADness, yet being stuck with Druid-only spellcasting until Character Level 3 when your first Wizard level comes online.

So if starting Stars Druid 2 and not going with a Tortle, you'd want to consider going with something like a High Elf or High Half Elf, to pick up an INT-based Wizard cantrip like Toll the Dead or Fire Bolt as your racial cantrip to use as your primary combat option to tide you over until your Wizard levels.


But I do think Tortle is an all-around better solution in this case. You can dump DEX and start with a +3 WISMOD, just like your +3 INTMOD, so it you won't be lacking if you decide to take Druid levels first. And your AC will be higher throughout the character's career, since a character relying on the Druid's non-metal armor proficiency will top out at a 16 AC (Hide Armor 12 + 2 from 14 DEX +2 from shield), or you could bump that to 17 AC if you forego armor and spend a daily spell slot on casting Mage Armor, or possibly 18 AC if your DM generously allows you to eventually acquire scale armor made from non-metal scales. Compared to the 19 AC from Tortle's shell + shield, which is always available without the need to spend spell slots or rely on DM generosity.

[sambojin]

That's kinda why I mentioned something like Firbolg for your race. All casters feel weak at lvl1, Firbolgs don't. They have a pretty big short-rest package of spells and abilities to play with, alongside speak to animals (not with, just to) for some fun RP stuff. Your couple of cantrips is what you'll mostly be using anyway, and neither of them will be guidance. You'll miss the extra spells way more than you'll miss the AC at first level though.

All druids feel powerful at lvl2, with stuff like wolves/ Velociraptors, draft/ riding horses, digger badgers, wolf spider wall walking, and in the Star's case, archer constellation and combos with wildshape with it. On top of all your Fibolg shenanigans, familiar use (help is pretty helpful to land more attacks) and slightly better spell and cantrip selection, you'll have tonnes to do each day/encounter, even if some of you combat spells whiff sometimes. You should be able to sneak Wis 14 into almost any build, tortle or not, so that's not a huge problem.

Way quicker start, and at lvl 3 you'll still feel plenty wizard'y, and will have the shield spell on top of popping invis for disadvantage and wildshape gtfo movement instead of flat AC. Same'ish result with more magic with better spell prep for later wizard stuff is better imho than tortle AC.

[Mitchellnotes]

This is a little bit of an aside, but how does constellation work with astral monk? Would you get the minimum 10 on things like athletics checks?

[RogueJK]

This is a little bit of an aside, but how does constellation work with astral monk? Would you get the minimum 10 on things like athletics checks?

RAW/RAI, probably not. But at my table, I'd allow it. If you have both Dragon Form and Astral Arms in place, you can have a minimum 10 on Athletics checks. However, both Arms and Dragon are Bonus Actions. So that'd take 2 turns to get it online.


This does bring up an interesting option for a WIS-based build. Something like Stars Druid 2/Astral Self Monk X. You could just start Druid and use Shillelagh for WIS-based staff attacks until the Arms come online at Monk 3 (or for times when you don't want to burn the Ki to summon them). Plus, Archer Form and free Guiding Bolts give you decent options for ranged attacks, something that many monks lack.

I just don't know that you'd gain enough from Stars Druid 2 to make it work delaying all your Monk goodies by 2 levels, though. But even if it may not be optimal, it sounds like a fun and flavorful build. You could even flavor the Astral Arms as being made of starlight.

Maybe something like a Custom Lineage with point buy:
STR 8
DEX 15
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 15+2
CHA 8
And taking a WIS half-feat like Skill Expert at Level 1 for 18 WIS.

Start Druid 2, wear Medium Armor, and use a Shield for the first 2 levels. Take Shillelagh and Thorn Whip as your Druid cantrips, plus free Guidance from Stars. Play as a traditional Shillelagh melee Druid for the first 2 levels. Once you take Monk 1 at Level 3, ditch the shield and armor, but continue to use Shillelagh for your primary melee attack, with now also having a DEX-based BA Martial Arts unarmed attack. Then starting at Level 5 (Druid 2/Monk 3) you can summon your Astral Arms for both WIS-based primary and bonus unarmed attacks with 10' reach, and just keep a staff around for backup Shillelagh use for times when you're low on Ki or otherwise want to conserve it. Plus you can use Thorn Whip + Archer for times when ranged attacks are needed, supplemented by Guiding Bolts.

You'd also potentially be a solid grappler. If your DM is generous enough to allow it, and you have Dragon Form running, that could mean a minimum of 10+WISMOD+PROF on all your Athletics checks, or +2x PROF if you have Expertise in Athletics from taking the Skill Expert feat as your Level 1 WIS half feat. When this comes online at Level 5, that'd be a minimum of 20 on all Athletics checks with Dragon + Astral Arms + Skill Expert's Expertise.


The 2 level delay to your Monk abilities really hurts, though. By the time your multiclass is just starting to come online at Level 5, straight classed Monks will already have an ASI, Extra Attack, and Stunning Strike.

[Dalinar]

This is a little bit of an aside, but how does constellation work with astral monk? Would you get the minimum 10 on things like athletics checks?

Reading the Astral Self text, my first instinct is "not RAW but probably doesn't break anything if you allow it."

"You can use your Wisdom modifier in place of your Strength modifier when making Strength checks and Strength saving throws."

I'd think it'd still be considered a Strength check, you're just substituting a modifier that is probably much better for you.

Nothing that says you can't have both Starry and Astral abilities active at the same time, and that's a lot of resources to blow just for minimum of roughly 15 on Athletics checks. Although I guess if allowed it would make for some interesting non-Strength grappler builds.

[sambojin]

That could be pretty fun with some wildshapes. Just make sure you take the athletics skill when making your character, and you get the joy of wrestling wolf spiders for off-the-ceiling powerbomb drops and samurai super-jump kitties by lvl5. You keep your wisdom in wildshape, and since that's now your grapple strength when you hit the astral button, any wildshape is now a grapple master if you need it to be. Huge enemy to fight that no-one else can get a grapple on? Wrestling cow... Problem solved :)

A hawk familiar should be able to pick you up as a tiny spider/velociraptor pre-combat, then you make your astral fists for some aerial punchy bombardment fun when combat starts. Yeah, you won't be doing standard monk stuff at level 5, but you'll definitely be doing something whacky that includes martial arts and mystic arrows and berserk flurries.

[Mitchellnotes]

Astral self seems like itd also allow for shoving and grappling at range. If starry form worked, it'd be a wild combination