Race and racial subtype

[redking]

Race and subtype is very confusing in 3.5e. For example, an undead human is undead type, human race but sometimes described as human subtype. The Human Heritage feat from Races of the Dragon refers to a human subtype. Other races have also been described as subtypes, especially when they have the 'augmented' subtype because they have changed somehow.

Types in 3.5e are fixed but subtypes seem to play fast and loose. Can we get a definitive answer about race and racial subtype?

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm pretty sure racial subtypes are implied for every race. They mostly don't have any mechanical effects, so they don't need to be explicitly listed. Their main use is to keep various sub-races in a single group, so that high elves and dark elves and aquatic elves (etc.) all just count as an "elf" for game purposes.

Also, "augmented" is used with a full creature type, not with an existing subtype. It's to indicate that a creature still possesses some qualities of its original type. So you might find an "undead (augmented humanoid)", but never an "undead (augmented human)".

[Zanos]

I think the only mechanical effect of racial subtypes other than dragonblooded is the ability to meet prerequisites. A drow can use magic items meant for an elf, for example.

You also usually retain subtypes. A human lich is Undead(Human, Augmented Humanoid), and would still count as human if he needed to.

[redking]

You also usually retain subtypes. A human lich is Undead(Human, Augmented Humanoid), and would still count as human if he needed to.

What subtype is a dragonwrought kobold?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Remember, ranger abilities count for this, as well. Having favored enemy (humanoid [human]), for example. There're other ones, such as bane weapons, so it's not exclusive to just one or two different things.

[redking]

Remember, ranger abilities count for this, as well. Having favored enemy (humanoid [human]), for example. There're other ones, such as bane weapons, so it's not exclusive to just one or two different things.

Excellent point. Here is a non exclusive list of these creatures, explicitly given racial subtypes, from the SRD.

https://i.ibb.co/x6WJs0F/Screenshot-2021-0725-031245.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

What subtype is a dragonwrought kobold?You apparently both keep your previous type and you become humanoid. Somehow.

[Zanos]

What subtype is a dragonwrought kobold?
Kobolds are Humanoid(Reptillian, Dragonblood). Dragonwrought changes your type from Humanoid to Dragon, and explicitly removes the Dragonblood subtype. So you would be Dragon(Reptillian), no?


Remember, ranger abilities count for this, as well. Having favored enemy (humanoid [human]), for example. There're other ones, such as bane weapons, so it's not exclusive to just one or two different things.
Is there any RAW on that? Favored enemy says the type has to match, a character that's Undead(Augmented Humanoid) has a humanoid subtype, not a humanoid type.


You apparently both keep your previous type and you become humanoid. Somehow.
What?

[Tzardok]

(Reptilian) is a humanoid subtype, so (unless the dragonwrought kobold is a dragon (augmented humanoid)) he should lose the (reptilian) subtype, shouldn't he?

[Zanos]

(Reptilian) is a humanoid subtype, so (unless the dragonwrought kobold is a dragon (augmented humanoid)) he should lose the (reptilian) subtype, shouldn't he?
Dragonwrought specifies you keep your other subtypes. As far as I know, other than the ranger FE table, nothing specifically ties race related subtypes to a parent type. I would think you would retain it unless something specifically causes you to lose it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Is there any RAW on that? Favored enemy says the type has to match, a character that's Undead(Augmented Humanoid) has a humanoid subtype, not a humanoid type. The ranger's favored enemy states: "If the ranger chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, he must also choose an associated subtype, as indicated on the table."

The humanoid type states: "Every humanoid creature also has a subtype."

Outsider doesn't have that caveat, that I can see.


What?Sorry, I was thinking of dragonborn, not dragonwrought. Disregard my previous statement.

[edit] Honestly, several types really ought to be subtypes, instead. For instance, giant, undead, and outsider. So you could be humanoid (outsider, evil, human) for a tiefling, for instance.

[redking]

Kobolds are Humanoid(Reptillian, Dragonblood). Dragonwrought changes your type from Humanoid to Dragon, and explicitly removes the Dragonblood subtype. So you would be Dragon(Reptillian), no?


Yes. Here is the relevant text.


You are a dragon wrought kobold. Your type is dragon rather than humanoid, and you lose the dragonblood subtype. You retain all your other subtypes and your kobold racial traits.


Reptilian is a retained subtype. "Kobold racial traits" - I suppose that could be considered a subtype also. So the dragonwrought kobold would be an Augmented Dragon (Reptilian) (Kobold). Right?

[mattie_p]

I believe it would be

Dragon (Augmented Humanoid, Reptilian)

+retaining any other subtypes it might have had.

[Thurbane]

(Reptilian) is a humanoid subtype, so (unless the dragonwrought kobold is a dragon (augmented humanoid)) he should lose the (reptilian) subtype, shouldn't he?

As pointed out earlier, 3E plays pretty loose and fast with subtypes: Dragonkin and Firenewts are Monstrous Humanoids, and have the reptilian subtype; Subterranean Lizards are Animals, and have the reptilian subtype.

Also, on a loosely related note, fun fact I just realised: using random loot tables, there is no such thing as a Deathless Bane weapon, or Arrows of Deathless Slaying. :smallbiggrin:

[Particle_Man]

There is also the incarnum subtype which can apply to a large number of types but doesn’t really do much, especially compared to dragonblooded.

[KillianHawkeye]

There is also the incarnum subtype which can apply to a large number of types but doesn’t really do much, especially compared to dragonblooded.

Incarnum isn't a racial subtype at all. It's basically like the psionic subtype except for incarnum-related creatures.

[Thurbane]

Lets face it, the majority of subtypes don't really do anything.

[redking]

Lets face it, the majority of subtypes don't really do anything.

Yes. The utility of subtypes is for determining whether X affects Y subtype.