[3.5] Apprentice, Kensai and early entry proof of concept

[ciopo]

Greetings forumites.

I've been thinking about the Instill feature of the Kensai class, it let's an 8th level kensai transfer some of his BAB and base saves to an ally for 1 hour, once per day.

I am a little surprised I've never seen this mentioned at all as an early entry trick. So maybe it wouldn't work? I'd like to hear people opinions why this wouldn't work for BAB/saves prerequisites.

Anyway, I got thinking that it would be fun to make a Kensai "tradition", where a master teaches his apprentice how to get into this trick, basically going from kensai to kensai.

The apprentice feat from DMG II seems a very good fit here, because it gives us the framework of passing this knowledge down the generations.

Given the skill prerequisites of Kensai, the minimum is base class 2 /kensai 8 on the mentor side to be able have Instill

If we look at the parameters by which to make the mentor, it's 5th level, +1 if same race and class, +2 if same alignment, +1 if the associated skills are maxed, +1 chamod , so this is feels doable?

Here is a stub :)

32 point buy

Human

16 STR, 12 DEX, 14 CON, 14 INT, 10 WIS, 12 CHA

1st level : Fighter
Feats : Apprentice(Martial artist), Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus(something)
Skills : Concentration 4, Ride 4, Tumble 4, Diplomacy 2(4), Intimidate 4, Jump 2

2nd level : Warblade
Skills : Concentration 4+1, Ride 4+1(2), Tumble 4+1, Diplomacy 2+3

3rd-10th level : kensai 1-8! (9th level feat : Mentor)


Well, that's about it for the purpose of "perpetuating" the tradition. Thoughts? All it does is entering Kensai at 3rd level, and we have this lone hour each day of "overwhelming power" with our BAB being 8 higher than our HD would allow, with all that it entails.

What I find it most fun to think about is having an overleveled signature weapon. Would we count as "ex-kensai" if we go by CW rules on PrC prerequisites? But even if we do, we self qualify at 7th level, and at that point we have a signature weapon with a value of +5 ( or we add +5 to our +1 weapon! )

[Darg]

It's the same reason Divine Power can't be used for BAB requirements. Can it work? Sure. Still, temporary bonuses generally don't qualify you for things other than having the ability to do something rather than having that something.

[ciopo]

Oh. Well, yeah, I agree with you on that.

But within the scope of early entry (milk flavored) tricks, I believe divine power is accepted? Not that it allows "early" entry of all that much, given it's own CL prerequisite

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Hmm, it would only take 24 Kensais (Kensai? what the heck is the plural?) to improve a student 24/7; 16 if you don't care about the 8-hour long rest. That's a large number, but not unreasonable for a dedicated monastery.

[daremetoidareyo]

Hmm, it would only take 24 Kensais (Kensai? what the heck is the plural?) to improve a student 24/7; 16 if you don't care about the 8-hour long rest. That's a large number, but not unreasonable for a dedicated monastery.

Boosting peons is the gentleman’s way to wage war!

[Thurbane]

I'd never noticed this Kensai ability before; interesting.

The question that this (and Divine Power etc.) raises is how long does levelling up take? Is it actually specified anywhere?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I'd never noticed this Kensai ability before; interesting.

The question that this (and Divine Power etc.) raises is how long does levelling up take? Is it actually specified anywhere?

IIRC, the DMG says a couple of weeks training... but that was explicitly a variant rule. Can't recall whether it ever specifies a time beyond "however long the DM decides" aside from that.

[Maat Mons]

I remember this being discussed when Complete Warrior first came out. Also the War Chanter's Inspire Legion ability. And when Complete Divine came out, I remember there being similar discussion around its Moment of Clarity ability.

But if you want early entry shenanigans, you don't need to look beyond core. Lycanthrope gives you a bunch of hit dice, and everything that comes with them. You can use those and the things they grant to meet prerequisites. Then, when you self-qualify for your PrC, you can get your Lycanthropy cured.

[ciopo]

I remember this being discussed when Complete Warrior first came out. Also the War Chanter's Inspire Legion ability. And when Complete Divine came out, I remember there being similar discussion around its Moment of Clarity ability.

But if you want early entry shenanigans, you don't need to look beyond core. Lycanthrope gives you a bunch of hit dice, and everything that comes with them. You can use those and the things they grant to meet prerequisites. Then, when you self-qualify for your PrC, you can get your Lycanthropy cured.
I'm not specifically interested in doing an early entry, it's not something I'd ever use at a table. I was just curious about having not found mention of this one specific way during my various lurkings, and so wanted to share =)

Hmm, it would only take 24 Kensais (Kensai? what the heck is the plural?) to improve a student 24/7; 16 if you don't care about the 8-hour long rest. That's a large number, but not unreasonable for a dedicated monastery.
oooh, expanding it to a framework of "many kensai" makes sense! And if we take the reading of "1/day= 1/long rest", then 8-9 masters would be enough.


I'd never noticed this Kensai ability before; interesting.

The question that this (and Divine Power etc.) raises is how long does levelling up take? Is it actually specified anywhere?

The only common example of "temporary things used to qualify for stuff" that's on the forefront of my mind is qualifying for feats such as combat expertise / power attack /etc that have ability score requirements. For classes as a whole I've not seen much indication, mostly because classes prerequisites are a category much harder to manipulate I guess? There are not all that many ways to inflate BAB/base saves/skill ranks except with HD manipulations.



For the fiction of this kensai tradition example, personally I think it acceptable that "one hour/ day" repeated for N weeks is enough to gain the class. I imagine it like, for days on ends the apprentice trains on martial arts, and one hour each day he has a "taste of power" of what the end goal is, but it's going to take "months" before he gets familiar enough with it to bond with a weapon on his own, but borrowing his master power helps him getting a feel for it earlier than he otherwise would if he went about it on his own