OOTS #1241 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Deuce]

I see the Order's saving throws remain slaves to the plotline . . .

[Psepha]

Ahhhhhh we're so close to the Bloodfeast awesomeness, so close!

[Potatopeelerkin]

Alright, I'm not a D&D player. Can someone please explain to me what got used on Belkar, Elan, and Haley's bow?

[RMS Oceanic]

Well that's gotta hurt.

[kallikalev]

So this is definitely a defeat for OOTS, do we think they’ll have more luck talking to Serni than the paladins did?

[Puschkin]

Never played AD&D but shouldn't more than 2 of them make their save? By now they must be among the highest level adventurers if not characters alltogether!

[Sir_Norbert]

This is great :)

[RMS Oceanic]

Alright, I'm not a D&D player. Can someone please explain to me what got used on Belkar, Elan, and Haley's bow?

Belkar got Fear, Elan got Charm Person, Mr Scruffy got Charm Monster, and the Bow got Telekinesis

[Fyraltari]

So? I'm guessing : petrification, sleep, telelkinesis, slow, something that makes you attack allies, something that makes you fearful, charm and I suppose #8 woumd have been something lethal?

In any case, Sunny has good aim.

[link3710]

Alright, I'm not a D&D player. Can someone please explain to me what got used on Belkar, Elan, and Haley's bow?

Telekinesis for the bow
Charm Person on Elan
Flesh to Stone for our resident cleric
Slow for V
Charm Monster on the cat (I think?)
Belkar is maaaaybe another Charm Person???

As for the rest? Beholders can't poison, so it's gotta be related to this being a homebrew knock-off.

Edit: as someone pointed out, Belkar was fear actually, whoops. Oh and forgot to mention Minah was obviously sleep

[Deuce]

So? I'm guessing : petrification, sleep, telelkinesis, slow, something that makes you attack allies, something that makes you fearful, charm and I suppose #8 woumd have been something lethal?

In any case, Sunny has good aim.

Most likely Disintegrate.

[Hasric]

So what was #8 meant to be, or is Sunny referring to not hitting Roy?

Simultaneously posted with the Disintegrate answer above, but doesn't explain why Serini feels the need to be non lethal

[kallikalev]

Never played AD&D but shouldn't more than 2 of them make their save? By now they must be among the highest level adventurers if not characters alltogether!

This is going by approximately 3.5e rules and they’re levels 14-16, so should have probably made a couple. I think the beholder specifically targeted the weak throws, Haley with the strength, Elan and Bella’s with will, ect.

Also they’re all slaves to the plotline, just like the net in comic #556.

[KorvinStarmast]

I see the Order's saving throws remain slaves to the plotline . . . As ever.
Ahhhhhh we're so close to the Bloodfeast awesomeness, so close! Yes, so very close! :smallannoyed: And so very far away.

1. I love the big panel with Serini hanging onto an eye stalk - 'Bottoms Up' tactic. *golf clap*
Nice use of the monster, Giant. In some editions, beholders only use a few eyes at a time at random, but since this isn't a random monster, it makes sense that Serini has taught Sunny how to use his skills tactically (she's epic level rogue, and pretty smart) so why not use all at once? (Not sure if beholders have a recharge in 3.5 or not ...)

2. With Serini hanging by an eyestalk, how does she reload the crossbow she hasn't got in her hand in the barrage panel, and then shoot a bolt (with poison on it) at V? (I am not 3.5e expert enough to understand the feats and features of the epic rogue class). Maybe it's a magic hand crossbow that reloads itself? Can anyone help me with that?

3. Bloodfeast is out of the bag! Hooray! :smallsmile:

4. Durkon saves versus stone: Hooray! :smallbiggrin:

5. Minrah does not save versus sleep. :smallfrown:

Lots of action, cinematic and stuff. *Bravo, Giant, great strip!*

[SlashDash]

I laugh at the irony that when they went to fight the vampires with Wormy, Haley complained that suddenly everyone memorize invisibility purge because it's a common tactics for characters in their level.

Except none of them thought of doing the same. Even though they had their share of invisible enemies (like Xykon on the dragon)


Alright, I'm not a D&D player. Can someone please explain to me what got used on Belkar, Elan, and Haley's bow?

Elan is some form of charm\domination. Same thing that happened to him before the fight. You'll also note he's talking very similar to when the vampires dominated them.

Belkar I assumed some form of Doom?

V was slowed

Haley's bow was telekinetically pulled away, like Elan's Lute before

Durkon was flesh to stone but he resisted.


Never played AD&D but shouldn't more than 2 of them make their save? By now they must be among the highest level adventurers if not characters alltogether!
Durkon passed his. Roy would have likely passed a save as well.

Besides, it's been made clear that the order has very poor willsaves. I mean Elan, Haley and Belkar fell to the vampire's domination. Durkon even said he wondered if the cat could summon Roy alone because he knew Malack would dominate all of them.

Besides, they are high characters, but Serini is higher than all of them.

[kallikalev]

As for the rest? Beholders can't poison, so it's gotta be related to this being a homebrew knock-off.


The poison wasn’t the beholder, it hit V with a slow and Serini shot an epic-level poisoned crossbow bolt.

[Deuce]

Telekinesis for the bow
Charm Person on Elan
Flesh to Stone for our resident cleric
Slow for V
Charm Monster on the cat (I think?)
Belkar is maaaaybe another Charm Person???

As for the rest? Beholders can't poison, so it's gotta be related to this being a homebrew knock-off.

Edit: as someone pointed out, Belkar was fear actually, whoops. Oh and forgot to mention Minah was obviously sleep

Roy was poisoned earlier in the fight.

[Dion]

Simultaneously posted with the Disintegrate answer above, but doesn't explain why Serini feels the need to be non lethal

Serini is either neutral or “adventurer good”, and doesn’t care if a few people die in combat.

Sunny is “actual good”, and doesn’t kill people.

[Rad]

So what was #8 meant to be, or is Sunny referring to not hitting Roy?

Simultaneously posted with the Disintegrate answer above, but doesn't explain why Serini feels the need to be non lethal

Her plan A is to make them all forget what happened and go home thinking they found nothing. This would be much harder if one of them failed to return, even the cat, as it would be a noticeable dicrepancy.

[Fyraltari]

So what was #8 meant to be, or is Sunny referring to not hitting Roy?

Simultaneously posted with the Disintegrate answer above, but doesn't explain why Serini feels the need to be non lethal

People need reasons not to want to kill people, now?

Or, as Ben would put it (https://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0610.html): I wrote "Good" on my character sheet and I jolly well meant it!

[The MunchKING]

I never thought I'd have to correct a bard on word-usage, but "surrender" alone is 3 syllables.

[KorvinStarmast]

Did Durkon's neutralize poison on Roy get fizzled by getting hit by a spell?
I don't recall non damaging effects causing spells to fizzle, Durkon seems to have started the spell before Sunny let loose with the barrage ... again, not 3.5e savvy enough to understand how that's supposed to work.
(Or is this the old - at the speed of plot thing?)

Also, that prismatic spray induces a variety of saving throws, or saving throw options. It turned a gigantic demon into a statue a few books, and a few V levels, ago.
V must have a pretty high save DC on spells.

So why is Serini unaffected by prismatic spray? (In the edition I play these days, 5e, that's a pretty stout 7th level spell ...)... or is this a 'save by plot' deal? (Granted, epic level rogues ought to have some pretty good saving throws).

[Curupira]

Never played AD&D but shouldn't more than 2 of them make their save? By now they must be among the highest level adventurers if not characters alltogether!

I just sent today comic's link to a friend who also reads OotS regularly and also plays D&D weekly.

My friend: I can't believe the cleric borked his petrification save! Also, unless this is an enhanced beholder watchamacallits, the party is much over his challenge rating, they shouldn't all mangle their saves.

Me: :vaarsuvius: "And once again, Probability proves itself willing to sneak into a back alley and service Drama as would a copper-piece harlot"

[SlashDash]

I'm pretty sure that Belkar pulling Bloodfeast out of the bag means we're not going to see him going full dino.

My guess? Serini will narrow the party down and it will eventually come down to talking to give them pause.
If Serini wins, the party's memory will be wiped out and the story is over (unless a wild guess about IFCC have V gain their memory back)

But regardless, I find it far more plausible that Serini is closer to Gerard's mentality. Once the Durkon, Minrah and Roy are out of the picture (I.E the lawful ones), the chaotic ones will be able to talk Serini down as they are on a much closer mentality.

[Potatopeelerkin]

I just sent today comic's link to a friend who also reads OotS regularly and also plays D&D weekly.

My friend: I can't believe the cleric borked his petrification save! Also, unless this is an enhanced beholder watchamacallits, the party is much over his challenge rating, they shouldn't all mangle their saves.

Me: :vaarsuvius: "And once again, Probability proves itself willing to sneak into a back alley and service Drama as would a copper-piece harlot"

I thought Durkon did manage his save. The panel seems to suggest he's fighting it, as opposed to everyone else who just immediately succumbs.

[SlashDash]

I just sent today comic's link to a friend who also reads OotS regularly and also plays D&D weekly.

My friend: I can't believe the cleric borked his petrification save! Also, unless this is an enhanced beholder watchamacallits, the party is much over his challenge rating, they shouldn't all mangle their saves.

Me: :vaarsuvius: "And once again, Probability proves itself willing to sneak into a back alley and service Drama as would a copper-piece harlot"

We don't have full stats for Serini or Sunny. For all we know, Serini might have some prestige class like some weird version of beastmaster or something that let's her have cohorts with buffs. Or maybe she had some magical items or let Sunny drink some potion to buff him.

[hroþila]

My guess is that the whole book is going to be a succession of scenarios where Bloodfeast comes increasingly close to being unpolymorphed, right until the climactic final battle against Xykon. Where he won't be unpolymorphed either.

If Sunny and Serini have managed to take out V, Durkon and Minrah, they have little reason to reactivate the anti-magic field.

[Yendor]

I never thought I'd have to correct a bard on word-usage, but "surrender" alone is 3 syllables.

That's the joke. See Belkar's comment.

[kallikalev]

We don't have full stats for Serini or Sunny. For all we know, Serini might have some prestige class like some weird version of beastmaster or something that let's her have cohorts with buffs. Or maybe she had some magical items or let Sunny drink some potion to buff him.

Given the absurd amount of magic items Serini had back in her lair, I wouldn’t be surprised if they’ve both drank a potion to buff literally every stat, thereby increasing saving throws.

[Ninja Dragon]

So, with Durkon being the only one who passed a save, I guess he is about to get a big test of his negotiation skills before the rematch with Redcloack.

[InvisibleBison]

Did Durkon's neutralize poison on Roy get fizzled by getting hit by a spell? (I don't recall non damaging effects causing spells to fizzle, Durkon seems to have started the spell before Sunny let loose with the barrage ... again, not 3.5e savvy enough to understand how that's supposed to work.
(Or is this the old - at the speed of plot thing?)

I don't think Durkon getting zapped caused the spell to fizzle - there's no fizzle sound effect, after all. But neutralize poison (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/neutralizePoison.htm) only stops the poison from causing further harm; it doesn't undo the damage that's already been done. Since Roy was knocked out by the poison's initial damage, he'll stay down until that damage is healed, and I suspect the presence of the poison bubbles after Durkon's spell is meant to indicate that.

[KorvinStarmast]

If Sunny and Serini have managed to take out V, Durkon and Minrah, they have little reason to reactivate the anti-magic field. Durkon's still up ... :smallwink:

[Potatopeelerkin]

If, hypothetically, they did manage to unpolymorph Bloodfeast, and defeat Serini and Sunny, what would they do with him then? How would they get him out? Narrow underground tunnels don't seem like the ideal environment for a fully-grown T-Rex.

[Fyraltari]

You know it's impressive that V can circle faster than Sunny can spin.


If, hypothetically, they did manage to unpolymorph Bloodfeast, and defeat Serini and Sunny, what would they do with him then? How would they get him out? Narrow underground tunnels don't seem like the ideal environment for a fully-grown T-Rex.
Bloodfeast would return to lizard size as soon as it is no longer caught in the antimagic field just like V got their flying back.

[danielxcutter]

Durkon's still up ... :smallwink:

Not for long; there's only so much a single cleric can do in one round.



Also, who else is sick of the Order getting flattened into a thin paste and only managing to get away by the skin of their teeth? Because I sure am.

[SlashDash]

If, hypothetically, they did manage to unpolymorph Bloodfeast, and defeat Serini and Sunny, what would they do with him then? How would they get him out? Narrow underground tunnels don't seem like the ideal environment for a fully-grown T-Rex.
V or Durkon could shrink him again.



If Sunny and Serini have managed to take out V, Durkon and Minrah, they have little reason to reactivate the anti-magic field.

Umm... Hello... We had several strips reminding you that Haley and Belkar have magical items that are suppressed.

Durkon is still up.

[hroþila]

Last we saw Durkon, he was being affected by a flesh-to-stone spell. His struggle wasn't resolved in the panel where it was shown, so we don't know whether Durkon is still in the fight. Hence my use of "if".

And yeah Haley and Belkar have magical abilities but they're not primary casters, it's a whole different level of power. There are probably better uses for Sunny than keeping the rogue and the ranger magicless.

[Fyraltari]

Also, who else is sick of the Order getting flattened into a thin paste and only managing to get away by the skin of their teeth? Because I sure am.

They've been ambushed by a specialist of fighting dirty they didn't even know was alive on her own turf, why would you expect an easy fight?

[danielxcutter]

Haley's got her wands, I guess. I really don't think a wand is going to be enough though; I'm actually expecting her to get shot full of holes by Serini and start bleeding out next comic.

[Thecommander236]

What did Haley get hit with? Also, they all got hit by exactly what they needed incapacitate them. That's convenient.

[Sonata Arctica]

There is still a chance

Haley snaps Elan out of confusion
Elan uses Neutralize Poison on V.
V. dispels effects on Durkon
They get back to the fight

[danielxcutter]

They've been ambushed by a specialist of fighting dirty they didn't even know was alive on her own turf, why would you expect an easy fight?

I dunno, maybe I want the heroes to actually get things done?

[RMS Oceanic]

What did Haley get hit with? Also, they all got hit by exactly what they needed incapacitate them. That's convenient.

Her bow got hit with telekinesis.

[Fyraltari]

What did Haley get hit with? Also, they all got hit by exactly what they needed incapacitate them. That's convenient.
He bow was hit with Telekinesis.

It's almost like Plan B was planned in advance.

[danielxcutter]

What did Haley get hit with? Also, they all got hit by exactly what they needed incapacitate them. That's convenient.

Haley got her bow disarmed by Telekinesis. I guess that leaves her wands, but I don't really see how the Order's getting through this at all considering the entire party's been incapacitated.

[RMS Oceanic]

Haley got her bow disarmed by Telekinesis. I guess that leaves her wands, but I don't really see how the Order's getting through this at all considering the entire party's been incapacitated.

There was no in-SRD way of dealing with Sunny's Anti-Magic Field, but they managed it. It won't come down to dice rolls.

[Bilbo Baggins]

Elan was under the effects of Hold Person a couple strips ago, which doesn't seem to be one of the rays we saw here. So either that's #8 or else the Hold Person was one of Serini's wands. My money's on the latter.

[Potatopeelerkin]

What did Haley get hit with? Also, they all got hit by exactly what they needed incapacitate them. That's convenient.

Are there other combinations that would work out substantially better? Aside from the telekinesis disarming and the charm monster, most of those seem pretty disabling no matter who they hit (provided they don't make their save).

[RMS Oceanic]

Elan was under the effects of Hold Person a couple strips ago, which doesn't seem to be one of the rays we saw here. So either that's #8 or else the Hold Person was one of Serini's wands. My money's on the latter.

Beholders can also cast either Disintegrate or Finger of Death, I assume Sunny was going for nonlethal attacks.

[CorruptUser]

I'm pretty sure that Belkar pulling Bloodfeast out of the bag means we're not going to see him going full dino.

My guess? Serini will narrow the party down and it will eventually come down to talking to give them pause.
If Serini wins, the party's memory will be wiped out and the story is over (unless a wild guess about IFCC have V gain their memory back)

But regardless, I find it far more plausible that Serini is closer to Gerard's mentality. Once the Durkon, Minrah and Roy are out of the picture (I.E the lawful ones), the chaotic ones will be able to talk Serini down as they are on a much closer mentality.

That's... actually a good possibility. The IFCC has 2 more uses of their soul thing, and it wouldn't make narrative sense to use both at the final battle. The second one will be used to ensure there's a final battle, by kidnapping V. Serini will feed an unconscious Order the poison, but V's mind and soul will be elsewhere while the effects take place so V will be the only one to know what really happened.

[RichTF]

Nice use of the monster, Giant. In some editions, beholders only use a few eyes at a time at random, but since this isn't a random monster, it makes sense that Serini has taught Sunny how to use his skills tactically

Of course, it’s also very much absolutely 100% not a beholder. :smallwink:

[Fyraltari]

I dunno, maybe I want the heroes to actually get things done?

But they do. They've beaten Hel and Tarquin.

[RichTF]

That's... actually a good possibility. The IFCC has 2 more uses of their soul thing, and it wouldn't make narrative sense to use both at the final battle. The second one will be used to ensure there's a final battle, by kidnapping V. Serini will feed an unconscious Order the poison, but V's mind and soul will be elsewhere while the effects take place so V will be the only one to know what really happened.

What about Blackwing? With him being cut off from the party (and unknown to Serini), he would likely be missed out of the memory-wipe if Serini does win here and captures the party. I do love the idea of Blackwing being the one to save the day here.

[Potatopeelerkin]

But they do. They've beaten Hel and Tarquin.

To be fair, Tarquin was like 7 years ago at this point.

[danielxcutter]

There was no in-SRD way of dealing with Sunny's Anti-Magic Field, but they managed it. It won't come down to dice rolls.

I dunno... maybe Haley manages to talk Sunny into not shooting her with the Disintegrate ray? I... still don't see how Haley can do this, though. It sounds Serini might tell Sunny to do that if push comes to shove. Or maybe Serini manages to capture them, the IFCC pull some strings so they get out while simultaneously ruining any chance of her working with the Order for good. Something like that.

[danielxcutter]

But they do. They've beaten Hel and Tarquin.

Hel, yes, which is why this is even more frustrating - they were getting things done, and now they're back to being crushed into paste by every major encounter they come across.

Also they didn't really beat Tarquin that hard, they just ran away. And as the other guy said, that was years ago.

[Ninja Dragon]

To be fair, Tarquin was like 7 years ago at this point.

That just says something about how long in real life it takes between one encounter and the next, not how effective the order is at defeating their major villains overall.

They have been mostly winning everything since after War and XP, really.


Hel, yes, which is why this is even more frustrating - they were getting things done, and now they're back to being crushed into paste by every major encounter they come across.

Also they didn't really beat Tarquin that hard, they just ran away. And as the other guy said, that was years ago.

It seems like the Order follows the classic dramatic pattern of losing to a villain, getting away, then winning the next round. Which is not something that is unique of OOTS and is standard across all media.

[Jay R]

Also, who else is sick of the Order getting flattened into a thin paste and only managing to get away by the skin of their teeth? Because I sure am.

Not really. I have no use for trivial fights.

The Avengers should fight Thanos's army, not a high school team. A horde of Ultrons, not Rock 'em Sock 'em Robots.

The Fellowship of the Ring was beaten back by a snow storm, barely beat a cave troll, and ran from a Balrog before being attacked and broken up by an army of orcs that killed one of them and took two of them captive.

Heroes overcome great challenges, not petty annoyances.


... I don't really see how the Order's getting through this at all considering the entire party's been incapacitated.

You're not supposed to see how at this stage. That's called "dramatic tension".

Don't worry. Rich is driving.

[danielxcutter]

Not really. I have no use for trivial fights.

The Avengers should fight Thanos's army, not a high school team. A horde of Ultrons, not Rock 'em Sock 'em Robots.

The Fellowship of the Ring was beaten back by a snow storm, barely beat a cave troll, and ran from a Balrog before being attacked and broken up by an army of orcs that killed one of them and took two of them captive.

Heroes overcome great challenges, not petty annoyances.

Yeah, but in Endgame Thanos hadn't already put down half his opponents in the first thirty seconds. I'm really not seeing them pulling through outside of, I dunno, either turning Sunny against Serini or the IFCC making sure V doesn't get wiped. That's about it.

[Ninja Dragon]

The way I see this is moving to the diplomatic field, with either the Order or the paladins puilling it off. It's more interesting than having the party just defeat Serini the first time they meet, imo.

The order has an insane difference in information over Serini that makes her entire struggle pointless (like how the gods are about to undo everything or how their world's only hope of survival depends on defeating Xykon and making a deal with RC). So I'd like to see them delivering her the news.

EDIT:


Yeah, but in Endgame Thanos hadn't already put down half his opponents in the first thirty seconds. I'm really not seeing them pulling through outside of, I dunno, either turning Sunny against Serini or the IFCC making sure V doesn't get wiped. That's about it.

That's just because the "encounters" of Infinity War were structured differently than OOTS ones (it took hours of fighting mooks while Thanos slowly collected the gems), because at the end of the film, Thanos dealing a bigger defeat on the good guys than any character in this comic has had except for the Snarl. And the Avengers never had a chance of beating Thanos, we saw them try and fail over and over for almost 3 hours.

[Fyraltari]

Hel, yes, which is why this is even more frustrating - they were getting things done, and now they're back to being crushed into paste by every major encounter they come across.
This is their first fight since they thwarted Hel's plan and it's not even over yet. Or are you complaining that Durkon and Minrah didn't beat Redcloak, Oona and Xykon by their lonesome?
Also, I ahev to challenge the nothion that somebody is "crushing into paste" someone who's just made them abandon Plan A. I mean, Serini's not doing too hot either, right now.


Also they didn't really beat Tarquin that hard, they just ran away. And as the other guy said, that was years ago.

The guy screaming impotently in the desert looks defeated to me. What does "this was years ago" (in real time, not in-universe time, mind) matter when you've just admitted they spent said time beating another villain?

[Sloanzilla]

I mean if we can't show good guys look like they are about to lose before overcoming a given obstacle and then winning, we're really going to have to shorten an awful lot of books, movies, video games, comics and other sources of material.

[Kerching]

It also feels a bit disappointing for the Order to keep getting their butts handed to them... but it's really only because we have to wait for each strip to come out. It'll be much faster archive binging in the future

[TRH]

Why is everyone assuming Durkon made his save against petrification? Because it sure looks like he's failed with 80% of his body stone.

[The MunchKING]

That's the joke. See Belkar's comment.

Oh I thought Belkar was mocking Elan for being a surrender-happy Bard rather than a fighting type like him.

[Psyren]

Why is everyone assuming Durkon made his save against petrification? Because it sure looks like he's failed with 80% of his body stone.

He's still talking. Every other petrification we've seen has been instantaneous, including cutting people off mid-sentence. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0815.html) My money is on he made the save.

As for how easily Sunny got the others - everyone else got hit with their weak save (or in Minrah's case, was low level.) Sunny does not seem to be a standard beholder so the DCs on their eyes might be boosted.

And lastly, for the poison(s) being so effective, Serini is an epic rogue after all. Her save DC may as well be "no."

[Khay]

This is why I hate fighting behol- uhm, eye thingies. It's just an endless list of really annoying magical effects.

Hopefully, this time our heroes will finally learn to not stumble blindly into every trap set for them. Or grow some saving throws already. Either one.

[Jay R]

Yeah, but in Endgame Thanos hadn't already put down half his opponents in the first thirty seconds.

Be careful with your phrasing. In fact, Thanos had already put down half his opponents, and indeed, half of the entire universe before the first thirty seconds of that movie.



I'm really not seeing them pulling through outside of, I dunno, either turning Sunny against Serini or the IFCC making sure V doesn't get wiped. That's about it.

I don't see it either. But we don't have to, yet. Maybe they will wake up chained like O-Chul and Lien. Then they will escape, or learn a crucial fact from Serini, or tell her one. Remember that she doesn't intend to kill them -- jump dump them far away.

Maybe a single moment of anti-magic and Bloodfeast is in the fight.

Maybe Xykon will find them and they will all have to work together against him -- or flee together.

But whatever happens, it won't wrap things up, and it won't make things easier, and you won't see it coming.

This isn't a game with a sequence of encounters each of which is defeated straightforwardly on the way to the next.

This is a story. There will be complications and reversals and failures before we reach the ending.

This is not the "climactic finish" part of the story. This is the "add complications and obstacles that seem insurmountable" part of the story.

[DLcygnet]

Ah, what a fun strip. You can make all the best plans in the world, but the enemy gets a vote too. And odds are, they won't follow your plan.

Narratively speaking, I agree that Bloodfeast won't be unleashed here. There aren't a lot of good ways to get him OUT of that chamber (at least not without destroying the Swiss cheese cliff side and exposing the entire operation and potential location of the Gate to Xykon as soon as he steps out of his current dungeon. They'd barely have enough time to remove the shackles from the Paladins and put the band back together. Wait a minute!

Sunny is hurt and it looks like Serini is about to fail a grapple check. Everybody else being taken out could mean...

A, Full-Frontal Lady Rogue on Rogue action sequence!!! Those dagger (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1188.html) skills could come in handy right about now.
B, Everybody gets mind wiped & sent home only for Blackwing to remind them of everything. Or an IFCC extracted V. Except nobody will have seen Serini, leading to a serious Whodunit mystery. Page count would likely end up too high. Plus, I don't see the IFCC intervening quite yet since Xykon hasn't been sitting on his butt (and the gods are 1 vote away from wiping out the planet anyway). Xykon is a few more X'd out caves from blasting the entire cliff in frustration and figuring the deception out anyway and these guys are patient.
C, Haley tumbles away and whips out a wand of dispel magic, freeing half the crew and exposing Serini.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Haley: Durkon, take down Elan before he can dispel our buffs!
Durkon: What now?!
Elan: Too late! Greater dispel magic!
Minrah wakes up, Belkar and Scruffy refocus, and Bloodfeast extreminates.

Okay, so both Sunny and Serini have taken their turns.

Belkar's action seem limited to varieties of cowardice.

Elan's next action will presumably be harmful, but I don't see Rich letting dominated Elan do anything too creative.

Haley can maybe use one of her wands? Four are unaccounted for; obscuring mist might be helpful; fly isn't useless in this situation, but doesn't seem like the best choice. Also, I think her bow is going to fall back down as the I assume the telekinesis was of the Violent Thrust variety.

But Durkon, he should be able to do an area dispel, which I think can potentially undo everything but the poison sleep effects?

You know it's impressive that V can circle faster than Sunny can spin.That seems to be a consistent thing with eye-centric magic/super powers across stories/genres.

Once the eyes start effecting something, it takes all day to look somewhere else.

[Schroeswald]

Just a fun roller coaster of different people winning and losing!

[Dion]

How does V evade the AMF?

Possibly a readied action?

But then how do they cast a spell in (presumably) the same round?

Haste?

Edit: prismatic spray was first. I need to learn to read, the read again, *then* post. But still, V is taking a lot of actions here. Wizards generally don’t get to evade area effect spells without some kind of readied action like “I get ready to run when I see sunny turn”

[Jason]

Standard 3.5E beholder eyes are:
Main eye: Anti-magic cone
1. Charm monster - used on Mr. Scruffy
2. Charm Person - used on Elan. Twice now
3. Disintegrate
4. Fear - used on Belkar
5. Finger of Death
6. Flesh to Stone - used on Durkon
7. Inflict Moderate Wounds
8. Sleep - used on Minrah
9. Slow - used on V
10. Telekinesis - used on Haley's bow (and to let Sunny pick up things in earlier comics)

Since Sunny only has 8 eyestalks I'm guessing #8 is either Finger of Death or Disintigrate, and that Sunny doesn't have an Inflict Moderate Wounds eye either.

[urbanwolf]

Looks like sunny got hit by yellow, and maybe green. Yellow is 80 electric damage or 40 is she saved. Green if it hit her is poison that kills so she must of saved for that one so 1d6 con damage. Sernie should of been in the cone too, but it looks like she was not touched.

Spray has a 1/8 chance to hit with two rays.

[Dion]

Can beholders be resurrected?

[Jason]

Can beholders be resurrected?
Resurrection will work on a beholder, yes, so will raise dead.

[SlashDash]

Haley got her bow disarmed by Telekinesis. I guess that leaves her wands, but I don't really see how the Order's getting through this at all considering the entire party's been incapacitated.
She also has a dagger that we have seen her train with at the end of last book.
It has to come into effect sooner or later. Though since it was also clearly pointed out to be Adamantium dagger, I'm assuming it will come into play later on.

Regardless, keep in mind that we've seen the order use outside the box thinking when it comes to magical items. Remember tricking Tarquin to capture the smoke arrow?

A strip ago we saw Elan take down the anti magic field with a simple perform check.

Just because you can't think of something creative the party can do, doesn't mean there isn't stuff they can do.


Hel, yes, which is why this is even more frustrating - they were getting things done, and now they're back to being crushed into paste by every major encounter they come across.

Also they didn't really beat Tarquin that hard, they just ran away. And as the other guy said, that was years ago.
Tarquin was abysmally crushed. He went after them to kill Roy and force Elan to be the party leader. He failed. Roy still leads the party and Elan is just a supporting character. We last saw him whining that he has no idea what to do. That is the very definition of defeat for the type of character Tarquin is.

And while we're at it, of course the party has to meet tough challenges. Battles go back and forth for a reason. Otherwise it will be boring if they just meet a bunch of goblins and V will blast them with a single fireball.

Besides, the party isn't out yet. We have multiple members of the party still standing and enchantments can be broken.

I mean it's like you read just a couple of pages from the battle with the linear guild in Tarquin's palace and think that Haley is turned to stone, Roy is losing in the arena, V unable to hit Z and Durkon being drained by Sabine and assume the party is totally crushed.
They got better.


Yeah, but in Endgame Thanos hadn't already put down half his opponents in the first thirty seconds. I'm really not seeing them pulling through outside of, I dunno, either turning Sunny against Serini or the IFCC making sure V doesn't get wiped. That's about it.

Again, just because you can't see something doesn't mean there isn't a solution.
I can think of loads of solutions.

Again, Haley's smoke screen could debuff Sunny's aim. They could - now that they have a light source - realize the door is blocked by Mimi and attack her, which will allow them to get out of the trap and spread out to weaken's Sunny's reach (as V implied)

They could get Bloodfest involved (doubt it though)


They could dispel Serini's invisibility somehow and hit her with something.
Or even just realize who she is and start talking to her and explain the things she doesn't know like the gods position. Notice that this battle has a bigger focus on Haley, Belkar and Elan.
There is a reason why the three chaotic members are more prominent in a battle after you saw the enemy make a mockery of paladins.

[Alexandrite]

Might be time for the ol' bag of holding. Does Haley still have those wands?

With how helpful-unhelpful Sunny is I could totally see him saying "I'll help :D!" and putting the anti-magic back on Haley... and the rest of the party. I don't really think the dinosaur is going to be unpolymorphed here but that'd be funny.

[Anitar]

I never thought I'd have to correct a bard on word-usage, but "surrender" alone is 3 syllables.

When Elan is being controlled, he can lie as much as he wants. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1124.html)

[Kantaki]

This is going by approximately 3.5e rules and they’re levels 14-16, so should have probably made a couple. I think the beholder specifically targeted the weak throws, Haley with the strength, Elan and Bella’s with will, ect.

Don't let Belkar hear you call him that.:smallamused:

Charmed Elan is just delightful though.:smallbiggrin:
I think the way he acts says a lot about both Elan and Sunny.
"We surrender" is probably what he's supposed to say/do while "two syllables" is Elan's own contribution.

[drazen]

I would think Haley's next move is Fly wand + boots of speed + adamantium dagger.

Serini is lacking in a LOT of information though. Primarily that her desire to protect the gate is useless if they don't end the threat here and now. The gods will destroy the world should Redcloak get anywhere near it. The ritual takes weeks, ending existence takes them less than 15 minutes, per Loki at the Godsmoot (although he is also incapable of telling the truth except to rub things in Thor's face...).

[Emmit Svenson]

Sunny has two small eyestalks less than a standard beholder, possibly because she is immature. The three standard beholder eye rays she hasn't fired are Finger of Death, Cause Moderate Wounds, and Disintegrate. I imagine the eye she held off with could just as easily be Finger of Death as Disintegrate.

The antimagic field of the central eye suppresses magical effects, it doesn't end them. So if Bloodfeast gets unmorphed, Sunny could look elsewhere or close her center eye.

[gerryq]

If it ends in diplomacy and Serini allows the Order to carry on working to defeat Xykon, surely Serini would have no reason not to help them subsequently? That would be a very big power boost, and I'm not sure it works well with the storyline. But if they defeat her without killing her, the problem is the same.

I suppose it's possible to come up with a motivation for Serini where she says "Okay, go try to defeat Xykon but I'm having no part in it". But it's not terribly logical to me.

[Werbaer]

How does V evade the AMF?
Possibly a readied action?
The party was no longer in the AMF when Sunny looked upwards in panel 3.
V had a Fly spell active, which was surpressed by the AMF. When sunny looked away, V was flying again without need to use an action.

[Ninja Dragon]

If it ends in diplomacy and Serini allows the Order to carry on working to defeat Xykon, surely Serini would have no reason not to help them subsequently? That would be a very big power boost, and I'm not sure it works well with the storyline. But if they defeat her without killing her, the problem is the same.

I suppose it's possible to come up with a motivation for Serini where she says "Okay, go try to defeat Xykon but I'm having no part in it". But it's not terribly logical to me.

Xykon is so broken and there are so many factors that could make this more difficult (IFCC, Monster in the Darkness, whatever is going on inside the rift, etc) that I think we can afford to get an epic ally or two and still make this a difficult endeavor.

[Peelee]

Yeah, but in Endgame Thanos hadn't already put down half his opponents in the first thirty seconds. I'm really not seeing them pulling through outside of, I dunno, either turning Sunny against Serini or the IFCC making sure V doesn't get wiped. That's about it.

I haven't even seen the movie and yet I still know that Endgame literally started with Thanos already having half his opponents down.

And, that aside, you and I clearly have wildly different definitions of "crushing into paste."

[Ionathus]

Love this strip. This fight has been so much fun! V's aerial acrobatics are particularly impressive from an art standpoint: something about that "chase sequence" is really exciting!


Also, who else is sick of the Order getting flattened into a thin paste and only managing to get away by the skin of their teeth? Because I sure am.

I wouldn't call it a "thin paste" either, but I do get your point. I'm a little flabbergasted that a beholder can aim 7 eye rays while blinded and only 1 of the 5 high-level adventurers make their saving throw (Minrah and Mr. Scruffy aren't held to that high of a standard). But then, they've been fighting unfair opponents for quite awhile. The main bad guy is an Epic-level Lich Sorcerer, one of the most OP things in the game! And in the last book, Rich showed to full effect how creatures like Vampires can abuse their abilities to make a totally unfair fight. Because winning (or at least doing well) when the odds are stacked against you is a Hero Thing.

This is where OotS differs from actual D&D: most players seem to enjoy feeling competent, whereas the goal of a fictional work is (usually) to have major fights be as tense as possible. That's only annoying to me if there's no reason for the fight to be hard, aside from plot contrivances to artificially make it so. But here they're being ambushed by a beholder and an epic-level rogue in a specific ambush scenario tailored to their enemies' strengths. It's honestly impressive how much of a fight they're putting up.

And, frankly, my money's still on them either winning, or on fighting Serini & Sunny to a standstill before diplomacy kicks in.


It seems like the Order follows the classic dramatic pattern of losing to a villain, getting away, then winning the next round. Which is not something that is unique of OOTS and is standard across all media.

"You fool! Don't you know Evil always triumphs in the middle?!" (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouCantThwartStageOne)


Not really. I have no use for trivial fights.

The Avengers should fight Thanos's army, not a high school team. A horde of Ultrons, not Rock 'em Sock 'em Robots.

The Frost Giant ambush was fairly trivial for the order, but it kept getting messed up by Andi. I liked how that sequence's complications showcased the Order's competency, while still providing a more interesting battle than a straightforward curb-stomp. Pretty sure that Rich had something in the book commentary about how he wanted to give them an "easy win" to show how much they'd grown.


Don't worry. Rich is driving.

Love this.


Yeah, but in Endgame Thanos hadn't already put down half his opponents in the first thirty seconds.

I'd argue this is actually wrong on two counts.

At the start of Endgame, Thanos has, uh...pretty definitively put down half his opponents already.

And in the final battle of Endgame, Thanos opens the fight with an orbital bombardment! As a result, most of the team is buried in the rubble and can't come out to play, leaving Cap, Thor, and Tony to face Thanos alone.

[danielxcutter]

I meant the big F-ass army, not just the Avengers.

[InvisibleBison]

And lastly, for the poison(s) being so effective, Serini is an epic rogue after all. Her save DC may as well be "no."

Why do you think so? Rogues don't any ability to boost the save DC of poisons they use, and they're no more able to create or buy high-DC poisons than any other character.


She also has a dagger that we have seen her train with at the end of last book.
It has to come into effect sooner or later.

Given that the Giant has stated that conservation of detail is overrated, I have to disagree.

[danielxcutter]

Also unless it’s got some really crazy powers, she’s down here and Sunny’s up there so…

[Dion]

was flying again without need to use an action.

DnD is turn based; V moves; Sunny moves; V moves; Sunny moves, etc.

V doesn’t have the option to evade an area effect spell, no matter how fast they’re flying around.

[Yxylu]

Possible graphics error - it looks like Lutey is visible in panel 1 (peeking out from behind Elan), but he (it?) is on the floor again in panel 12. The Lute is not seen in panel 4, 13, or 18, which I believe to be correct.

[Peelee]

Also, I thin over gone on record as this before, but housing it out again : I bet that tye IFCC does not pull V back again for the rest of the comic.

[Fyraltari]

Also, I thin over gone on record as this before, but housing it out again : I bet that tye IFCC does not pull V back again for the rest of the comic.

All of it? They never call in their other two debts before their plan (whatever it is) is put into action and (presumably) thwarted?

[KorvinStarmast]

Not for long; there's only so much a single cleric can do in one round.
We'll see. (I wonder if he has fog cloud prepared...)
There was no in-SRD way of dealing with Sunny's Anti-Magic Field, but they managed it. It won't come down to dice rolls. So much this. {bolding mine} :smallsmile:

That's... actually a good possibility. The IFCC has 2 more uses of their soul thing, and it wouldn't make narrative sense to use both at the final battle. The second one will be used to ensure there's a final battle, by kidnapping V. Serini will feed an unconscious Order the poison, but V's mind and soul will be elsewhere while the effects take place so V will be the only one to know what really happened. As this is the final book, that makes some sense ... we'll see if Rich goes there.

Of course, it’s also very much absolutely 100% not a beholder. :smallwink: Adolescent Eye Tyrant? :smallconfused:

It seems like the Order follows the classic dramatic pattern of losing to a villain, getting away, then winning the next round. Which is not something that is unique of OOTS and is standard across all media. yep.

The Fellowship of the Ring was beaten back by a snow storm, barely beat a cave troll, and ran from a Balrog before being attacked and broken up by an army of orcs that killed one of them and took two of them captive.
Heroes overcome great challenges, not petty annoyances.
You're not supposed to see how at this stage. That's called "dramatic tension".
Don't worry. Rich is driving. Wins Thread. :smallsmile:

This isn't a game with a sequence of encounters each of which is defeated straightforwardly on the way to the next. This is a story. There will be complications and reversals and failures before we reach the ending. This is not the "climactic finish" part of the story. This is the "add complications and obstacles that seem insurmountable" part of the story. And goes to the playoffs ... :smallsmile:

You can make all the best plans in the world, but the enemy gets a vote too. And odds are, they won't follow your plan. No plan survives contact intact. {Murphy's Laws of Combat}

B, Everybody gets mind wiped & sent home only for Blackwing to remind them of everything.
C, Haley tumbles away and whips out a wand of dispel magic, freeing half the crew and exposing Serini. I like C better than B.

[InvisibleBison]

All of it? They never call in their other two debts before their plan (whatever it is) is put into action and (presumably) thwarted?

There's no guarantee that there will be useful opportunities for them to do so.

[bunsen_h]

Not really. I have no use for trivial fights. [...] The Fellowship of the Ring was beaten back by a snow storm, barely beat a cave troll, and ran from a Balrog before being attacked and broken up by an army of orcs that killed one of them and took two of them captive.

Heroes overcome great challenges, not petty annoyances.

In the book, they didn't even "beat" the cave troll, merely got it to yank its foot back out of the doorway, whereupon they slammed the door shut.

Rereading that passage carefully, I note an oddity. The troll gets its arm and shoulder through the door, then its foot. Boromir hits the arm with his sword, with no apparent effect apart from damaging his sword. Frodo stabs the foot, which causes it to be yanked back, then they slam the door. But what about the arm and shoulder? I suppose that we're to assume that they also are withdrawn, but the passage describes everything else in clear detail.

Then they fight a bunch of orcs, and Frodo is pinned against the wall by their chieftain's spear. They kill the chieftain, and the remaining orcs run away. The Fellowship withdraw.

Every time I see the movie version of that scene, with Frodo being squashed by the full weight and force of the troll with a spear, I burst out laughing. I can't help it. It's such a ridiculous and unsurvivable escalation. Even the lightsaber version (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckScH-rNtwo) is only slightly sillier.

[Peelee]

All of it? They never call in their other two debts before their plan (whatever it is) is put into action and (presumably) thwarted?

I suspect that the threat of pulling V out would be sufficient. V and Roy, at the very least, know about the deal, so they have to plan around the possibility of V being pulled out of the fight at any time. They cannot make V a lynchpin of any plans, which significantly hobbles them. Why do more work yourself when you can make others do the work for you?

[Werbaer]

V doesn’t have the option to evade an area effect spell, no matter how fast they’re flying around.
V didn't evade the area of effect.
Sunny moved the focus of his main eye (panel 3), so the party (including V) was no longer in the area of effect.

[Fyraltari]

There's no guarantee that there will be useful opportunities for them to do so.

While true, I suspect that the foiling of their plan will involve the Order facing off against their pawns at some point. In which case taking out the caster would probably be a good strategy for Team Pandemonium.

Also, I know The Giant said conservation of detail is overrated, but these two claims are textbooks Chekov guns of you ask me (which you didn't, I am aware).

[Dion]

V didn't evade the area of effect.
Sunny moved the focus of his main eye (panel 3), so the party (including V) was no longer in the area of effect.

In panel 7, Sunny points her eye at… nothing.

Why did she do that?

Either in panel 7 she intended to point at nothing (which is possible, but tactically makes little sense), or she tried to point the anti magic cone at something. It look like she tried to point it in V’s direction.

I’m assuming that V somehow evaded the area of effect of the AMF in panel 7, but… how did they do that?

It’s an area of effect. You don’t aim those. And unless you’re a rogue or a monk, you don’t get to evade them, either.

[hamishspence]

Based on the dialogue, Sunny is trying to point the cone at V by spinning (hence multiple circles, for the end of the cone hitting the wall, overlapping) but V is moving too fast for Sunny to keep up.

[137beth]

So, what are the odds that Bloodfeast gets un-polymorphed in this fight?

[TRH]

Also, I thin over gone on record as this before, but housing it out again : I bet that tye IFCC does not pull V back again for the rest of the comic.

For my part, I stand by the prediction I made a while ago: they will use the connection to appear on the Prime Material themselves, possibly to smash the final Gate once it's been located.

[Dion]

Based on the dialogue, Sunny is trying to point the cone at V by spinning (hence multiple circles, for the end of the cone hitting the wall, overlapping) but V is moving too fast for Sunny to keep up.

Right. Can you think of any way to make thst work within the rules?

[TRH]

DnD is turn based; V moves; Sunny moves; V moves; Sunny moves, etc.

V doesn’t have the option to evade an area effect spell, no matter how fast they’re flying around.

Whatever else, I think it's safe to say the comic is no longer turn-based. Probably hasn't been for a while, if we're honest with ourselves.

[hamishspence]

Sunny is taking a move action to rotate, V is taking a readied move action to move in response to Sunny beginning to rotate?

[KorvinStarmast]

In panel 7, Sunny points her eye at… nothing. At first, at Haley's flame arrow, up there in the ceiling ... which was why Serini is fumbling with her utility belt/pouch to get something to suppress it ... see panels 2 and 3, and go back to last strip where Haley shot a flame arrow up and out of the anti magic cone. Then, in panel 7, after the panel 6 prismatic spray hit them, Sunny is spinning trying the chase (angular rate of change) a dodging V who is flying circles around him .
Did you ever shoot skeet? A crossing shot (high angular rate of change) is a trickier shot than one with a lower angular rate of change... same is true in air to air combat.
And for what it's worth, a crossing shot close in with a surface to air weapon is hard due to angular rate of change of the target relative to the firing platform ...

[Svata]

I dunno, maybe I want the heroes to actually get things done?

if the heroes win every fight then it's a very short story. Gotta throw in the occasional loss to make sure there's still some amount of question as to what's going to happen. When was the last time they encountered a DECISIVE loss, rather than just an incomplete victory

[MaverickMopete]

So, what are the odds that Bloodfeast gets un-polymorphed in this fight?

Lower than Elan’s INT stat.

[Alexandrite]

Did Durkon not cast his spell (presumably Neutralize Poison) on Roy? Vaarsuvius had time to cast a spell and Haley was firing arrows, but Roy is still poisoned at the end.

[bunsen_h]

In panel 7, Sunny points her eye at… nothing.

Why did she do that?

Either in panel 7 she intended to point at nothing (which is possible, but tactically makes little sense), or she tried to point the anti magic cone at something. It look like she tried to point it in V’s direction.

I’m assuming that V somehow evaded the area of effect of the AMF in panel 7, but… how did they do that?

It’s an area of effect. You don’t aim those. And unless you’re a rogue or a monk, you don’t get to evade them, either.

It's an area of effect with a defined shape (conical) and centre. I don't see why aiming and evading would be outside the rules, any more than, say, trying to hit a rapidly-moving flying target with a Cone of Cold.

[jahschwa]

I was re-reading old comics ... and Roy has a potion of delay poison (#443)! Use on V or Durkon to require continued anti-magic cone?

Also I'd be very surprised if Durkon was casting Neutralize Poison rather than Heal.

[Svata]

L I'm a little flabbergasted that a beholder can aim 7 eye rays while blinded and only 1 of the 5 high-level adventurers make their saving throw (Minrah and Mr. Scruffy aren't held to that high of a standard).


Blinded? they're... EYE rays. firing from open eyes. each one has it's own visual feed with which to aim. The main eye isn't the only one that works as an eye.

As for the saves, Belkar and Elan have *abysmal* wisdom so their will saves are pretty soft.

Telekinesis on Haley's bow was most certainly this use, which doesn't allow a save, and she just lost the opposed check for the disarm.



Alternatively, once per round, you can use telekinesis to perform a bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity, you use your caster level in place of your base attack bonus (for disarm and grapple), you use your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer) in place of your Strength or Dexterity modifier, and a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target (such as for disarm or trip). No save is allowed against these attempts, but spell resistance applies normally. This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration.


Vi lost their save vs Slow even though their will save is pretty good, but these things happen sometimes.

[hamishspence]

I figure V's will save might be a lot lower than Durkon's - Will is based on Wisdom, not Intelligence, and V's Wisdom as far as I can tell has never been called out as noteworthy.

[Svata]

Wizards still have a good base will save, though, and their wisdom is... fine. So it is almost certainly their strongest save.

[ORione]

Yeah, but in Endgame Thanos hadn't already put down half his opponents in the first thirty seconds. I'm really not seeing them pulling through outside of, I dunno, either turning Sunny against Serini or the IFCC making sure V doesn't get wiped. That's about it.

Half of the Order is still conscious, which puts them in better shape than they were in against Greg, and they still beat him. This battle isn't over yet.

[hamishspence]

Wizards still have a good base will save, though, and their wisdom is... fine. So it is almost certainly their strongest save.

I can believe that it's V's best save. The point is that it makes sense for V to fail Will saves more often than Durkon does on average.

[Ionathus]

Blinded? they're... EYE rays. firing from open eyes. each one has it's own visual feed with which to aim. The main eye isn't the only one that works as an eye.

Okay, yeah, yep. That one's on me :sigh:

[Fyraltari]

Okay, yeah, yep. That one's on me :sigh:

To kick a dead horse, Sunny uses them to see behind them in the sixth panel.

[Ionathus]

To kick a dead horse, Sunny uses them to see behind them in the sixth panel.

Ooh, that's a nifty little detail! I was zipping through the comic on the first readthrough, like I always do, and got too caught up in the excitement to notice.

[Svata]

I can believe that it's V's best save. The point is that it makes sense for V to fail Will saves more often than Durkon does on average.

Oh, my mistake. Yeah, I agree

[Living Oxymoron]

OMG... what if the bolt that hit V was dipped in that amnesia cauldron that Serini mentioned (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1229.html)? :smalleek:

What are the effects of such thing in a Wizard?

I think that may fulfill some "prophecy" that I heard here in the forum, which says that Vaarsuvius won't ever again use 9th level spells, let alone more powerful ones... :smallfrown:

[Fyraltari]

OMG... what if the bolt that hit V was dipped in that amnesia cauldron that Serini mentioned (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1229.html)? :smalleek:

The one that wasn't done brewing when she left?

[t209]

Sunny the Beholder seems bubbly and naivete.
That or being exposed to Xanathar didn't help.

[TRH]

I'm not convinced Vaarsuvius has made a single successful saving throw in the entire comic. They may as well not have save bonuses.

[ebarde]

they passed one con check but that was it

[Rinazina]

Dear Forumites, I want to bring up two points respectfully:

If Durkon casts a healing spell in panel 4, should it have sealed the bleeding in panel 13? is an art mistake, or was it a different spell Drunkon tried?
is this the comic with the most magical effect at once ever? like, WorldTimeRecordMagicalEffectsOnASinglePanel kind of prize?

[InvisibleBison]

Dear Forumites, I want to bring up two points respectfully:
If Durkon casts a healing spell in panel 4, should it have sealed the bleeding in panel 13? is an art mistake, or was it a different spell Drunkon tried?


In the past, healing spells have been shown to erase wounds, so I think it's pretty likely Durkon cast neutralize poison (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/neutralizePoison.htm) instead.



is this the comic with the most magical effect at once ever? like, WorldTimeRecordMagicalEffectsOnASinglePanel kind of prize?


If by "at once" you mean "in the same comic", then yes, it is. I count 14 distinct magical effects*, compared to eleven in two (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html) other (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0638.html) with the next-greatest amount of magic that I could find.


*Antimagic cone, Elan's spell, Durkon's spell, Haley's magic arrow, V's flight and light spells, prismatic spray, and seven eye rays.

[Rinazina]

Also, I thin over gone on record as this before, but housing it out again : I bet that tye IFCC does not pull V back again for the rest of the comic.

I want to bet rather the opposite, with also an addendum.

The IFCC would take Suvie in this combat to keep hir body protected; in addition, hi would be possessed. And this would be the effect of a certainly anticipated artifact that has to take place.

a.k.a. no truly resolution of conflict, but an escalation to another level.


Also, am I right that the mysterious character with one appearance would become a prominent participant in this book? Not just an adversary, but someone more long-lasting? I remember this (and it's Sunny!!), but it might also mean Serini has to unlife asap (plus she can't be TheOldMentor figure https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html and don't be threatened by permanent death)

[Thecommander236]

Just realized #8 is probably Death Ray (huge necrotic damage, dodgable by dex) . It could also be Enervation Ray (mild necrotic damage, Constitution save) or Disintegration Ray (almost as huge force damage, Dex save).

[TRH]

Just realized #8 is probably Death Ray (huge necrotic damage, dodgable by dex) . It could also be Enervation Ray (mild necrotic damage, Constitution save) or Disintegration Ray (almost as huge force damage, Dex save).

Those sound like 5E mechanics. This is still based on 3.5.

[KorvinStarmast]

If Durkon casts a healing spell in panel 4, should it have sealed the bleeding in panel 13? is an art mistake, or was it a different spell Drunkon tried?
My guess is that it was neutralize poison

[Rinazina]

In the past, healing spells have been shown to erase wounds, so I think it's pretty likely Durkon cast neutralize poison (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/neutralizePoison.htm) instead.


ah thanks so now he should use a restore strength or something like this?



If by "at once" you mean "in the same comic", then yes, it is. I count 14 distinct magical effects*, compared to eleven in two (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html) other (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0638.html) with the next-greatest amount of magic that I could find.

*Antimagic cone, Elan's spell, Durkon's spell, Haley's magic arrow, V's flight and light spells, prismatic spray, and seven eye rays.

Congrats on your commitment, friend.
I was more thinking "in a single panel" and not including active effects, so it was kind of an easy one to think to eight rays. But I want to acknowledge your dedication by offering constructive feedback: in 638, you counted 8+1 from time stop, finger of death, shapechange. so 11. But then also the V's overland flight and the screen-TVHD should count? are 13.
And then I wondered... but hasn't V something that still wear on hir, since the battle with the imp... and TA DA https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html are 14 active magic spells.

[WanderingMist]

Also, I thin over gone on record as this before, but housing it out again : I bet that tye IFCC does not pull V back again for the rest of the comic.

That, or something will happen when V is called the second time which will cause the third time to be entirely moot.

[Thecommander236]

Those sound like 5E mechanics. This is still based on 3.5.

I am aware, but I couldn't find the 3.5E rules description.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I am aware, but I couldn't find the 3.5E rules description.
Here you go. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm)

[Fyraltari]

I wonder if there's actually casting being done in panel 4 or if the magic auras are just there to signify "magic is back on".

[bguy]

I'm not convinced Vaarsuvius has made a single successful saving throw in the entire comic. They may as well not have save bonuses.

It looks like V made a successful save against Laurin's psionic attack in panel 3 of Strip 935.

[Zhorn]

Ahhhhhh we're so close to the Bloodfeast awesomeness, so close!

We ALL want to see Bloodfeast, but I have to give it to the Giants, narratively Belkar getting his lizard out but then being denied is funnier.
Short term anyway.
If the fight ends quickly then that's that. But if it continues naturally then it's only a matter of time.
We have a beholder with an anti-magic zone, a creature stuck in polymorph, and a character pointing out the potential for the two to interact.
This is a chekhov's gun waiting to go off.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[RickDaily12]

:smallsigh:

Alright, I'm sorry, but this is getting a little disappointing/stale/predictable now.

This is the third (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html) time (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1122.html) the Order has been in a situation where a fight seemed winnable, possibly even fair by actual GM standards and could go either way, but is completely and horrifically ruined and turned upside down because "oh my god, literally no one made their saving throws".

And (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0930.html) both (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1131.html) those other times resulted in the Order losing the fight because of it, but only narrowly avoiding a TPK because of some external force intervening.

The stakes are lower here, since Serini doesn't actually want to kill them, but that is hardly the point here. This trope of "guys, unlucky saving throws really happen" is fine to use once or twice, but if it's your only tool at your disposal to justify your characters losing every fight at a point where they really could have won if it only weren't for their trash character optimization, I think, is starting to get a little overused for the purposes of storytelling. Does it make the twist of how they end up winning the fight any less cool? No, it doesn't, because the reveals were pretty great. But the "how did we get here" parts before each reveal is starting to get a little too telegraphed for my liking at this point.

So I guess now we sit and watch to see if yet another external force intervenes to save the Order from a fight they could have won yet again, or whether this time they actually really do lose and have to deal with the consequences of that outcome for probably half of the book or something.

[TRH]

Literally the only thing I see pointing away from us getting a lengthy amnesia arc is, ironically, the IFCC, who could easily short-circuit such nonsense by sending Qarr over to get everyone back up to speed. There's absolutely no narrative benefit to the Order winning here because it wouldn't change Serini's mindset about their abilities.

And honestly, I don't think the stuff they know about the Gods and their angle in all of this will be as convincing to her as the rest of y'all seem to believe, because as we saw with Redcloak, claiming a bunch of convenient stuff about the Gods and their motivations with no evidence isn't terribly compelling as far as arguments go.

"Oh, you lunkheads were given a mission from Thor himself to negotiate with the Dark One to defeat the Snarl once and for all? Yeah, pull the other one."

[Moebius]

1) What spell is Elan casting in panel 4?
2) Did it go off before he got Charmed again?

[RickDaily12]

Literally the only thing I see pointing away from us getting a lengthy amnesia arc is, ironically, the IFCC, who could easily short-circuit such nonsense by sending Qarr over to get everyone back up to speed. There's absolutely no narrative benefit to the Order winning here because it wouldn't change Serini's mindset about their abilities.

Just to quickly build upon this: This is the second (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1116.html) time (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1221.html), even, where the Order were given a reasonable amount of time to prepare for significant magical bombardment.

The first instance of that not working was actually much more excusable than in this instance. They lost those protections thanks to Dispel Magic- Antimagic Field only suppresses the protection spells they could have given themselves, which means any defense they would have attempted against Xykon would have been disgustingly handwaved once a few Will Saves start flying around, like we see here.

This whole fight only serves to prove Serini's point that the Order should not be here period, since if this is how they melted vs her, they would melt even worse against Xykon, seeing as how the party is fully aware by now that their terrible saving throws are exactly why they keep losing fights, and yet they're somehow stilll completely stumped about how to buff themselves into making that less of an issue.

[TRH]

Just to quickly build upon this: This is the second (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1116.html) time (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1221.html), even, where the Order were given a reasonable amount of time to prepare for significant magical bombardment.

The first instance of that not working was actually much more excusable than in this instance. They lost those protections thanks to Dispel Magic- Antimagic Field only suppresses the protection spells they could have given themselves, which means any defense they would have attempted against Xykon would have been disgustingly handwaved once a few Will Saves start flying around, like we see here.

This whole fight only serves to prove Serini's point that the Order should not be here period, since if this is how they melted vs her, they would melt even worse against Xykon, seeing as how the party is fully aware by now that their terrible saving throws are exactly why they keep losing fights, and yet they're somehow stilll completely stumped about how to buff themselves into making that less of an issue.

I'm kind of interested in a thread about how many successful saving throws each Order member has made vs. unsuccessful ones over the course of the comic. It would have the problem that there's a lot of cases where it's ambiguous as to whether they made a save or not, but generally I'd expect Haley has made more successful saves than the rest of the party combined because she's constantly showing off her Evasion.

[Squire Doodad]

I want to bet rather the opposite, with also an addendum.

The IFCC would take Suvie in this combat to keep hir body protected; in addition, hi would be possessed. And this would be the effect of a certainly anticipated artifact that has to take place.

The IFCC have made it very explicit that possessing V's body would be a violation of their contract, hence their surprise that V assumed they planned on using V's body to steal the Gate or something. All they can do is jerk V out of play for enough rounds for a TPK to happen.

I imagine one of the two instances will come into play, but not both. Or, if it is both, we're going to see one of them very soon.

[Borris]

It looks like V made a successful save against Laurin's psionic attack in panel 3 of Strip 935.

It looks to me like they saved against Hilgya's Chaos Hammer in #1117 as well. I know it deals half damage on neutral creatures, but it seems like V made their Will save and took only half of that.

[Squire Doodad]

I'd assume ray 8 is either death or destruction, unless Sunny is very afraid of rotting stuff. Sunny strikes me as being the kind of person to prefer non-lethal attacks, especially as Serini mentioned them being supposed to get amnesia brew instead of killing them.



Literally the only thing I see pointing away from us getting a lengthy amnesia arc is, ironically, the IFCC, who could easily short-circuit such nonsense by sending Qarr over to get everyone back up to speed. There's absolutely no narrative benefit to the Order winning here because it wouldn't change Serini's mindset about their abilities.

Well, there is one other thing, but it's a cheap shot. Durkon, Minrah, etc recover; the party is going to get the upper hand, and then Elan recognizes Sunny as the one from the early strip, leading Sunny to be hesitant about things and just barely convincing Serini to at least give them a chance to talk.

[TRH]

It looks to me like they saved against Hilgya's Chaos Hammer in #1117 as well. I know it deals half damage on neutral creatures, but it seems like V made their Will save and took only half of that.

That's still kind of conjecture. #935 I'll concede is more likely, but it's unclear what effect that was supposed to be, so I'm holding on to my headcanon that V has Saving Throws: No to go along with having no stat besides Int that's higher than 8.

[Wysper]

I see the Order's saving throws remain slaves to the plotline . . .

They've never met a Saving throw they couldn't fail.

[Alexandrite]

Yeah, I've no problem with the heroes losing fights or being on the ropes, it can make for good storytelling. But it gets pretty egregious when their biggest problem is "oh, we all failed our saving throws again"

[KorvinStarmast]

It could very well be that Rich looked up the 5E mechanics for the beholder Bet the under, if you are taking that one to Vegas.

[KorvinStarmast]

We ALL want to see Bloodfeast, but I have to give it to the Giants, narratively Belkar getting his lizard out but then being denied is funnier. that joke takes us back to strip 0001. Retreads are rarely funny.

Short term anyway. See strip 0001.

This is a chekhov's gun waiting to go off. I see your theme ... it's not working.

There's absolutely no narrative benefit to the Order winning here because it wouldn't change Serini's mindset about their abilities. Yep. She's an old lady, and her mind's made up. Reminds me of my mother in law. :smallyuk: (Except I kinda like Serini ...)

Yeah, pull the other one." There's that theme again ...


This whole fight only serves to prove Serini's point that the Order should not be here Sam Gamgee, take three (https://youtu.be/k6C8SX0mWP0). (See about time 0:26)


...Serini mentioned them being supposed to get amnesia brew instead of killing them. Which means Serini is not evil, just stubborn.


I think getting the rules exactly right matters less to the author than the story, and two different effects instead of two variations on the same effect may have better suited the story he’s telling. It looks to me like Elan is enervated, not charmed. I think you missed the point I was trying to make. Rich is not gonna drag 5e stuff into this, and has stated that he's not D&D'd for a long time.

[danielxcutter]

I think getting the rules exactly right matters less to the author than the story, and two different effects instead of two variations on the same effect may have better suited the story he’s telling. It looks to me like Elan is enervated, not charmed.

Getting hit with Enervation would only give him a few negative levels, not Charm him.

[TRH]

“Enervated” means weakened, tired, without willpower. To me Elan looks enervated, not charmed.

He's literally advocating surrender for no reason. What about that screams tired more than charmed? Also, how do you get from weakened and tired to "without willpower?"

That's not touching on how Durkon got Enervated back in BRITF and that didn't result in a sudden bout of defeatism from him.

[TRH]

If you lost all your energy (i.e., became enervated) in the middle of a fight, sitting down and quietly giving up might seem pretty appealing. On the other hand, suggesting to a charmed person that they stand still and weakly convince their team to surrender seems like a waste of a charm spell.

Well, again, we have precedent: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html

Missing: the Enervation victim meekly lying down and embracing death and encouraging his friends to join him in suicide.

Also missing: any reason this leap of logic in interpreting how Enervation works is somehow a better description of what's going on with Elan than him getting charmed...again, as he himself said to Sunny last strip: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1240.html

[TRH]

Gag > precedent.

Nobody’s disputing that Elan was charmed previously, when Sunny had him do something useful. If he’s charmed now, why isn’t he grappling someone, or attacking like Scruffy?

It’s not a leap of logic, it’s an interpretation of a scene in a story. If you interpret it differently that’s fine.

The hell does that mean? Which instance of Enervation is the gag in this context, just for starters?

Because charm is not dominate: he won't attack his teammates because that would violate his morals. I mean, he's Elan. Again, precedent, in case you place any stock in such whatsoever: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html

When you arbitrarily assume a spell has an effect that has no basis in rules as written and was not shown the last time the spell in question was used in the comic, because you've dismissed the far more likely possibility that was literally just used, then yeah, you're going a fair bit further than just interpreting a scene. I could interpret this whole sequence such that Sunny is just an illusion and all of his powers are actually Serini using wands/staves, and I wouldn't have to trash nearly as much of the 3.5 rulebook or prior strips of this comic as your interpretation to do so.

[Svata]

Yeah, this is really clearly a Charm Person situation, especially because we know Sunny can charm people and there is no evidence for him having an enervation eye. And because Charm isn't Dominate, it means Elan won't hurt his friends. Also "more useful" than completely removing someone from the fight and making them be in the way and distracting? That's pretty useful!

[Elkad]

Charm Person is not Dominate. It just makes Sunny Elan's friend. The rest of the party is also his friends.
So he's trying to convince them to stop fighting, because you don't want your friends to fight one another.

Mr Scruffy is defending Sunny, and he's a cat, so friendship is fickle anyway.

Belkar should flee, but he has nowhere to run (door blocked), so he Cowers instead.

[TRH]

If charm wouldn’t make Elan attack like it did Scruffy, I’m sure Sunny could think of something more useful for him to do than stand there telling his friends to do something they’ll never do.

Like what? Sunny seems like a child, and if you don't have something specific spring to mind immediately that doesn't involve hurting his friends, then he probably wouldn't either.

[Ruck]

Bet the under, if you are taking that one to Vegas.

That's not what an over/under is.

(Not to pick on you, but as an ex-pro gambler, one of my pet peeves is people using "over/under" when they just mean a simple yes/no question.)

[TRH]

Also, jere7my, you posit that Enervation saps the victim's will as a result of extreme fatigue. What in this strip shows Elan as the slightest bit fatigued or lacking in energy as opposed to self-control?


The evidence for the enervation eye comes from the fact that 5e beholders have one, and the concept of enervation accounts for Elan’s desire to quietly sit down better than being charmed. There are a lot of useful things you can tell a charmed person to do, as Scruffy demonstrates in this strip.

I don’t think it’s “really clearly” either, and having competing interpretations of a work of fiction is perfectly fine.

You don't think it's "really clearly" because you've decided that whole internal consistency thing is entirely superfluous and anything can be twisted in whatever direction you want...all of this, ultimately, because you don't think Sunny's getting enough use out of a potential Charm Person.

This line of argument is literally "OMG the OOTS are compleat scrubs, git gud, y'all!" to the Nth degree, when it comes down to it.

[TRH]

It’s just a comic, mate. No need to get worked up if we disagree!

I'm just saying, you're going through a lot of mental gymnastics entirely because you refuse to believe a Charm Person spell would be used this sub-optimally. Your argument stems from an extremely faulty premise, to the point where I don't even care about your interpretations anymore, so much as the assumptions they're in service of.

[jere7my]

I'm just saying, you're going through a lot of mental gymnastics entirely because you refuse to believe a Charm Person spell would be used this sub-optimally. Your argument stems from an extremely faulty premise, to the point where I don't even care about your interpretations anymore, so much as the assumptions they're in service of.

OK. Thanks for the comments.

[Svata]

Also, Elan has Swirly Eyes, which is, and always has been, a sign of being forced into actions. Charm, Dominate, and Fear have always done swirly eyes, and nothing else ever has. Including the time Enervation was used before.

[RatElemental]

I'm not convinced Vaarsuvius has made a single successful saving throw in the entire comic. They may as well not have save bonuses.

Well they managed to not lose their spell here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html), they might have made their save here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1058.html) (the spell just does extra damage and a chance at total freezing on fail), and they weren't one of the ones that got dominated here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1122.html).


I think getting the rules exactly right matters less to the author than the story, and two different effects instead of two variations on the same effect may have better suited the story he’s telling. It looks to me like Elan is enervated, not charmed.

Negative energy attacks (such as enervation) tend to appear as black lines that might be wrinkles or just charred looking wounds, not swirly eyes. Also, to think that Elan getting a few negative levels would make him, in his completely lucid, genre-savvy, knowing the fate of the world literally is on line self say "Yeah let's surrender" is terrible misjudgment of character IMO.

[danielxcutter]

Also, Elan has Swirly Eyes, which is, and always has been, a sign of being forced into actions. Charm, Dominate, and Fear have always done swirly eyes, and nothing else ever has. Including the time Enervation was used before.

Nitpick, but Confusion effects also have swirly eyes. It's a general indication of mind-whammy effects.

Does 5e even have Enervation?

[ORione]

Maybe Elan was hit by a disintegration beam, and it disintegrated his willpower.

[BriarHobbit]

Well, this is why beholders are so dangerous. They are a pack of flying spell casters compressed into a single high hit point package plus the anti-magic beam, of course. This was a great double issue. I'm not sure why Roy isn't waking up. There is no reason that Durkon did not get his spell off, and classic sleep poison doesn't do damage. It just puts the target to sleep. I look forward to the next issue.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It's all right Belkar, I'm sure you'll get to unleash the fury eventually. Don't worry, we can all make fun of Belkar for you. Also, I kind of feel bad for Sunny here. They seem pretty hurt and I hope they'll be okay afterwards. Durkon's done a great job today of partially? resisting saves.

[Falontani]

Alright, I'm not a D&D player. Can someone please explain to me what got used on Belkar, Elan, and Haley's bow?

Late to the post but as a stout 3.5 player with years under their belt, I believe I can shed some light on what is happening.

First off I will talk about Sunny! Sunny is a Beholderwhatchamacallit. They are normally a decent challenge for a party of 4 level 13s, the same level that V got access to Prismatic Spray. With a single class level given to Sunny we can raise the DC of the rays from a meager 18 to a DC of 23 without doing any funny business, like changing out what feats a standard whatchamacallit has access to, or using obscure classes. This could be done with a fighter level if Sunny so chose. Continuing whatchamacallits generally have 10 ray attacks in addition to their antimagic cone. Sunny seems to only have 8 eyestalks however, implying that Sunny is not a traditional whatchamacallit regardless of class levels or not, so plot is indeed the correct decision to decide on the difficulty saves of the rays. In order to target and hit a ray Sunny has to make a ranged touch attack against each of the party members. Of the party, only Belkar, Haley, and Mr. Scruffy should have good armor class against such an attack, as the attack ignores traditional armor, and most buff spells that a wizard usually has employed. Again a normal whatchamacallit's ranged touch attack modifier is a lousy +9, but would be more than enough to hit both clerics, Elan, and V. Again with a single level and still doing the above thing for the DCs, we boost our ranged touch attack, to a +12, enough to usually hit Belkar and Mr. Scruffy. All that is left is hitting Haley... which it didn't do, it targeted the bow, which has a touch AC considerably lower than Haley probably would have.

With that out of the way; from left to right:
V: Slow, will save; V has a decent chance to save against it. If we consider the party around level 15 (a very high level, and in line with what we have seen) V should have roughly a +9 from class, a +1-5 from equipment, and a +1-3 from wisdom, putting V at ~+14, meaning with my projection above V would have a 55% chance to succeed on the save. Good chances, but well within reason for a failed saving throw here.

Durkon: Flesh to Stone, fortitude save; Durkon has the +9 from class, the +1-5 from equipment, but should have a +4-6 from constitution at this point, putting him at ~+17, or a 70% chance to succeed on the save. This is without talking about that he has been shown to be very hardy, possibly even considering other dwarves, so having the feat for an additional +2 fortitude wouldn't be out of line.

Minrah: Sleep, Will save. We don't quite know her level, but her wiki page says she is a multiclass fighter/cleric and I have seen her cast I believe 4th level spells. So if we say she is roughly level 13 (the maximum level of a cohort for a level 15 character) that would be 7 cleric and 6 fighter, a roughly even split. So she has a +7 will from class, a +1-4 from equipment, and a +2-5 from wisdom, putting her at ~+12, or a 45% chance to succeed on the save.

Haley's Bow: Telekinesis, Opposed attack roll... ish. To do what was done with Telekinesis it makes most sense that Sunny disarmed Haley, as that is a normal use of Telekinesis. In 3.5 to disarm a foe the attacker and defender make opposed attack rolls with various bonuses and penalties. Haley has a +11 from class, +5-8 from dexterity (although a dm could easily decide that Haley needs to make an improvised weapon attack roll as if using the bow for melee, but I digress, in which case Haley would have a +1-3 from strength, and get a -4 on the check) and possibly a +1-4 from the bow itself giving Haley ~+20 (+11) against Sunny's ~+17. Haley has a 15% advantage, but it is very plausible that she could fail this check.

Belkar: Fear, Will save; +5 from class, +1-5 from equipment, +1-3 from wisdom, +5 from race for ~+15. 60% chance to succeed.

Mr. Scruffy: Charm Monster, Will save; ready for this? +1 from class, +1-2 from wisdom, +4 from Belkar, +1-3 from equipment for ~+8. Ouch Mr. Scruffy you only have a 25% to succeed. Odds were not in his favor.

Elan: Charm Person, Will save; +9 from class, -1 from wisdom, +1-5 from equipment. I think it should be lower than this, and could easily push it lower, but I'm being reasonable, Elan has no use for wisdom as a bard other than for the spot skill and the sense motive skill, which he hasn't been the best at. ~+11 for 40% to succeed.


So from a DM perspective in an actual combat scenario, having all of them fail is plausible. It isn't likely, but I personally have seen rarer things happen.


The missing rays.
There are 3 rays that a whatchamacallit should have that Sunny did not use:
Disintegrate, a powerful ray that deals ~91 damage on an average failed save.
Finger of Death. Yup. That is probably the ray that just wasn't used. Even on a successful save this thing does ~24 damage. Failed save means death, no ifs ands or butts (well I guess there are buff spells that Durkon definitely should be using a lot more often, due to how much it comes up)
Inflict Moderate Wounds. I was surprised this one wasn't used. 2d8+10 damage putting it at ~20 damage. On a failed save. ~10 on a passed save. Even Mr. Scruffy the (statistically) weakest party member would tank that. Haley wasn't herself hit with a ray. It just seems odd that Rich didn't have Sunny use that one. But again Sunny only has 8 eyestalks, and if we consider the ray with held to be the most lethal then it is either Disintegrate or Finger of Death, so I don't think Sunny has the Inflict Moderate Wounds ray. The third weakest ray just not even there.

Final notes: even if the one up there is about Xykon's (estimated) level, the party is still a dangerous foe to take on with just a whatchamacallit beside you. This is definitely becoming the endgame here, most campaigns I personally have run are falling apart by this point due to the sheer statistics of things going on. And this is discounting Roy the fighter somehow failing a fortitude save >.> Like c'mon man. Roy is probably level 15-16 by himself, and is a human fighter. He has more feats than he knows what to do with. His fortitude save is rivaled only by Durkon the Dwarf with the Great Fortitude feat. Speed of plot tells me that Roy simply rolled a 1 there. And even then, for a poison to lay him low like that tells me the poison is probably simply paralysis, meaning Durkon should have gotten him up, and Roy should have recovered.


Oh yea, Prismatic Spray. Great spell, very powerful, but it is SUPER random. A bad roll on V's part could easily have the spray doing some piddly amount of damage rather than some of the uber powerful effects that the spray could do. Like insanity. Which would have been terrible for the party, because as we just saw, Sunny is holding back ray 8, and our party is not great at resisting the effects of these rays >.>

[Kardwill]

Whatever else, I think it's safe to say the comic is no longer turn-based. Probably hasn't been for a while, if we're honest with ourselves.

I think it never has been, at leats for movement. Even when they were still joking about failing perception checks, everyone was already moving at the same time.

Turn-based is a useful simplification for a tabletop game, but it's just terrible when you're telling a story, or worse, showing an action scene.
I mean, imagine how silly a turn-based chase scene would look like in OotS : Haley runs 60 feet, stops ; Goblin 1 runs 60 feet, stops ; Goblin 2 runs 60 feets, stops ; Elan runs 60 feet...

And that aerial combat scene is pretty much a chase scene, and would look just as stupid.

When picturing an action scene, initiative and turn-order are the fun-killers.

[danielxcutter]

I think it's been stated on this forum before, but beholders are kinda... weird to fight against. Even ignoring the fact that their two main powersets are mutually incompatible against the same target(aside from using Telekinesis to throw rocks at people in the cone), AMFs in general kinda shut down about 80% of the party's capability. It's not even "severe debuff level", it's "makes casters entirely useless and the martials can't do much either" level. And a beholder in such favored terrain with such a powerful ally... would honestly be a deathtrap for parties far more optimized than the Order.

[Peelee]

He’s not going to convert the strip to 5th Edition, but if he Googled beholder eye beams he might have found the 5e list more appealing than the 3e list. It’s a pretty arbitrary set of powers, so using one list is as good as using another, and if he thought an enervated Elan was funnier or read better than a charmed Elan I don’t see why he wouldn’t use it. It’s clear he’s using *a* canonical list of beholder powers, but “I don’t want two charmed characters” is a sufficient justification to use the list without two charm spells, imho.


“Enervated” means weakened, tired, without willpower. To me Elan looks enervated, not charmed. If he were charmed, there are more effective things he could be doing than suggesting they all sit down.

It seems like your theory is resting upon The Giant, who created his own entire D&D world that came within a hair's breadth of being official D&D property, wrote/cowrote several D&D books, and is largely incredibly knowledgeable about 3.5 and D&D in general; and who has written a flowchart detailing his current research that is basically "here is how I think I remember it, so there" - your theory is resting upon that person not only looking up an incredibly iconic monster's Stat blocks, but also looking up the wrong Stat block, and then also changing one of the effects from the mechanical game term definition to the dictionary definition. And also does not explain the swirly eyes, which are caused by mind-affecting spells.

The counter to this is that he correctly remembered the abilities, one of which exactly fits how Elan is acting.

[danielxcutter]

And like, we've seen someone Charm Elan. Judging by the color, it's probably Sunny's Charm Person or Charm Monster ray.

[Dion]

Why would Sunny need to shoot a *second* charm ray at Elan? Wasn’t Elan already charmed?

[brian 333]

In all my years as DM I never once had a beholder turn itself upside-down.

I rule that tactic brilliant!

(And now I wish I had thought of it back when my players were exploring the Winter Mountains Caverns. I put every kind of eye-monster I could find in there, then made the dungeon dark. There's a level of genius in that. I won't say what level.)

[TheNecrocomicon]

Pretty sure that even if Sunny reestablishes the AMF cone and happens to point it in Bloodfeast's direction -- because Serini and Sunny have no reason to know that he's actually a Polymorphed dinosaur -- he still can't reach high enough to snap at them, or they can just hover higher out of his reach in moments.

Also, what happens if parts of a Polymorphed dinosaur stick out of the AMF cone? Because that will happen as he closes in on Sunny and Serini. Would there be a chimera-like effect as bits extend outside the cone and briefly turn back into tiny lizard form? Because that sounds painful.

I pretty much think that the Order are indeed done here, and Serini is going to get her way and dump them somewhere far away (but plot-relevant) with magically-induced amnesia. It actually might make for a sort of "greatest hits" sort of theme (something not unheard-of in series finales) as the Order trek back through places they've been and people they've interacted with thanks to whatever clues they can deduce, piecing their overarching quest back together on their way to really ending the worldly and cosmic threats in the real dramatic climax of the book.

[danielxcutter]

Why would Sunny need to shoot a *second* charm ray at Elan? Wasn’t Elan already charmed?

It seems that the duration wore off or it was dispelled by the time Haley found him. Sunny didn't turn on the AMF until the entire Order came in.

[Quizatzhaderac]

So I'm wondering what exactly Serini plans to do with the amnesia potion. I assume it creates a false memory, otherwise everyone will figure out right away that they were memory wiped.

Ignoring the IFC and Blackwing (which Serini may not have accounted for), Hinjo and the Mechane crew know of Kraggor's gate. The idea that there's nothing there is already refuted.

I suppose that Xykon was defeated? But Eugene (or Julia) will put the lie to that pretty quickly.

Now that I think about all the ways that the amnesia potion won't work, it actually seems more plausible now; as it wouldn't stop the story.


If he were charmed, there are more effective things he could be doing than suggesting they all sit down.From his point of view, I don't think there are.

Elan actually has a pretty good track record of talking people into things (when his eyes aren't swirly).

And he doesn't have any save or disable abilities.

There are a lot of useful things you can tell a charmed person to do, as Scruffy demonstrates in this strip.Sunny hasn't given Elan any orders.

I wonder if there's actually casting being done in panel 4 or if the magic auras are just there to signify "magic is back on".I'm pretty sure it's almost all showing the magic is back on. The exception being that Durkon touches Roy when this is a very good occasion to use a touch spell.

Mr Scruffy is defending Sunny, and he's a cat, so friendship is fickle anyway.Also, cats always look like they're trying to kill something (unless they're sleeping). My interpretation of scruff's mood is merely agitated.

[Kardwill]

I pretty much think that the Order are indeed done here, and Serini is going to get her way and dump them somewhere far away (but plot-relevant) with magically-induced amnesia.

I dunno. We already had a "the Order think their adventure is over until one of them understands something is wrong" story with Girard's illusion. Doing it again with amnesia would feel redundant.

[danielxcutter]

I dunno. We already had a "the Order think their adventure is over until one of them understands something is wrong" story with Girard's illusion. Doing it again with amnesia would feel redundant.

Well, I thought we were done with the "pound the Order into a thin paste" song and dance, but well...

[locksmith of lo]

i don't know, but they just got ambushed by an epic level rogue and an adolescent beholdamacallit. i would expect the first few rounds to be shaky. sure they knew they were walking into a trap, but it's still a trap and they had no idea what that entailed. i would not expect a cakewalk given the circumstances. we'll see after a couple of rounds whether they can pull something off. :smallsmile:

[danielxcutter]

i don't know, but they just got ambushed by an epic level rogue and an adolescent beholdamacallit. i would expect the first few rounds to be shaky. sure they knew they were walking into a trap, but it's still a trap and they had no idea what that entailed. i would not expect a cakewalk given the circumstances. we'll see after a couple of rounds whether they can pull something off. :smallsmile:

The only cakewalk I'm seeing is Serini being on the giving end.

[Fyraltari]

The only cakewalk I'm seeing is Serini being on the giving end.

Again, switching to Plan B is not a symptom of things going very well for someone.

[Blue Dragon]

Amazing fight scene, but I can't help but think about how dull and pointless (in-story) it is, wasting time, resources and a great ambush set-up. Damn, Serini! :smallfrown:

I also love how so many speculations about the fight became useless because nobody knew that there was a beholder to add to the equation. :smalltongue:

[Alcore]

But they do. They've beaten Hel and Tarquin.

Tarquin didn't truly get serious until the end and was trying to motivate Elan most of the fight and, without the Dashing Swordsman, would have killed most of them. Without outside help they would of never made it.

Hel, herself, was defeated; indeed. The giants were little better than a random encounter. Vampire!Durkan was incompetent and the Order actually prepared in advance and almost, yet again, lost.



Audience empathy is lost on this corner. The author has reduced them into punching bag goal posts. If you can beat them your competent. If you can't then you are too inept to be a threat to anyone.

I am reading to see MitD finally get unveiled, see Vs ending, see if Redcloak be redeemed and maybe a world saved. Wouldn't mind reading more about that scarred paladin, ya know, to read about a hero.

[danielxcutter]

Tarquin didn't truly get serious until the end and was trying to motivate Elan most of the fight and, without the Dashing Swordsman, would have killed most of them. Without outside help they would of never made it.

Hel, herself, was defeated; indeed. The giants were little better than a random encounter. Vampire!Durkan was incompetent and the Order actually prepared in advance and almost, yet again, lost.



Audience empathy is lost on this corner. The author has reduced them into punching bag goal posts. If you can beat them your competent. If you can't then you are too inept to be a threat to anyone.

I am reading to see MitD finally get unveiled, see Vs ending, see if Redcloak be redeemed and maybe a world saved. Wouldn't mind reading more about that scarred paladin, ya know, to read about a hero.

Eh, I was actually okay with the last book. They were going pretty hard at each other until it started going south for the Order. This... doesn't feel a lot like that. Especially since her "Plan B" just took out the entire Order except Haley and MAYBE Durkon.

[locksmith of lo]

she went to plan b because her plan a was not the expected cakewalk i think she expected. she may need a plan c in back-up in the next comic. :smallsmile:

[bunsen_h]

Well, I thought we were done with the "pound the Order into a thin paste" song and dance, but well...

I think you should wait to see how the sequence plays out. They're not pounded yet. And it's likely to feel very different when we're not reading it at a page per week, with dissection of each page in detail.

[Sapphire Guard]

I love watching an epic level rogue at work.

[bunsen_h]

If Elan continues to act tired and unmotivated in the next strip that will support my theory. If he performs an action a charmed person might perform it will support yours. Right now there’s insufficient evidence to make a call, so I don’t see much point in further debate. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I have to say that Elan's grin in the last panel argues against your theory.

[Peelee]

I have to say that Elan's grin in the last panel argues against your theory.

Imean, a lot argues against the theory, but that as well. Elan does not seem like Greview. He seems excited to surrender.

[Dion]

per SRD Sunny shouldn’t have been able to aim more than three of them at the folks on the ground

Beholders aren’t in the 3.5 SRD.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm is in the SRD and has been used in the comic.

Enervation (the spell) does not do what you think it does, neither in the comic nor in the SRD.

Also note that scruffy and Elan are not hit with the same spell. Scruffy was hit with charm monster, Elan was (presumably) hit with charm person.

Why are those spells different?

Why’d they change it? I can’t say. I guess they just liked it better that way.

[jere7my]

Beholders aren’t in the 3.5 SRD.

🙄 RAW, then.

I see the forums have not become less nitpicky.

[Yirggzmb]

🙄 RAW, then.

I see the forums have not become less nitpicky.

I mean, once you get past the "this joke was funny!" and "I can't believe character did Thing" type stuff, all that's really left is nitpicking. That and discussion of other media.

[jere7my]

I mean, once you get past the "this joke was funny!" and "I can't believe character did Thing" type stuff, all that's really left is nitpicking. That and discussion of other media.

That is…horrifying that you think those are the only options available for discussing a work of fiction.

[Yirggzmb]

That is…horrifying that you think those are the only options available for discussing a work of fiction.

Or perhaps my definition of nitpicking casts a wider net then yours ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Ionathus]

Again, switching to Plan B is not a symptom of things going very well for someone.

Especially when it's 2v7. It might look bad right now, but none of the Order is more than a single Dispel Magic (or Cure Poison) away from getting back in the game at basically full capacity. Meanwhile, Sunny (the linchpin of Serini's strategy) has already taken some serious hits.

Sure, a beholder might be stronger than any one member of the Order, individually. But if any one member of the Order goes down for the count, the team can keep fighting. If Sunny goes down, it's game over for Team Serini. This makes the fight incredibly swingy, because the entire fight hinges around a single creature's hit points or saving throws.

[Insert standard platitudes about action economy, etc. here]


Or perhaps my definition of nitpicking casts a wider net then yours ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

All discussion of fiction is nitpicking: we just call the eloquent bits "critique" or "analysis."

[jere7my]

Or perhaps my definition of nitpicking casts a wider net then yours ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

My account here was created over fourteen years ago, but I haven’t posted in a few years. I am beginning to remember why.

[Anitar]

That is…horrifying that you think those are the only options available for discussing a work of fiction.

It's not really "those are the only things that can be discussed", so much as "this forum, and the people and posts within it, have a distinctive character to them-- one that only will discuss it in those ways". There's a certain quote (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?614527-OOTS-1205-The-Discussion-Thread/page13&p=24582395#post24582395) about that, which I keep seeing all the time because it's in TheNecrocomicon's signature.

...Welp, I guess I'm nitpicking just by saying this. I have become my own example.

[Dion]

That is…horrifying that you think those are the only options available for discussing a work of fiction.

Works of fiction may also be compared to Star Wars

[KishouTheBadger]

I'm a little annoyed too how the fight is going but that's because it's not over yet. I have faith the OotS will get a win... or at least come down swinging like with Greg's horde (as Durkon and Scruffy saved the day last minute).

What we saw on this comic seemed to make a good turnaround following the arrow at the top, although Seniri and Sunny aren't holding back either. It certainly feels epic.

[Dion]

🙄 RAW, then.

Well, if we’re going to discuss the rules, then there are rules.

But without dragging my 3.5 books out of storage, can you help by quoting the part of the 3.5 rule book that says how many special attacks a 3.5 beholder can use in a round?

I’m genuinely curious.

[RatElemental]

My theory is resting upon Rich choosing to use a beholder with eight different eyebeams so he can show everyone suffering a different effect as part of the gag instead of one with double-charm. It’s already a non-standard beholder (they generally have ten small eyes, and per SRD Sunny shouldn’t have been able to aim more than three of them at the folks on the ground), so the idea that he might toss in a non-standard enervation effect on Elan, one based on the meaning of the word rather than the 3.5e or 5e effect, should perhaps not be as shocking as it seems to be.

If Elan continues to act tired and unmotivated in the next strip that will support my theory. If he performs an action a charmed person might perform it will support yours. Right now there’s insufficient evidence to make a call, so I don’t see much point in further debate. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'd still like to see an explanation for why Elan has swirly eyes, which usually indicate being under enchantment effects, instead of black wounds, which are what is typically used to indicate damage from negative energy attacks in comic.

[Hardcore]

Did Elan cast anything in panel four?

[InvisibleBison]

If Elan continues to act tired and unmotivated in the next strip that will support my theory. If he performs an action a charmed person might perform it will support yours. Right now there’s insufficient evidence to make a call, so I don’t see much point in further debate. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

How is Elan acting "tired and unmotivated" in this comic?

[jere7my]

How is Elan acting "tired and unmotivated" in this comic?

{Scrubbed}

[skim172]

I'm a little annoyed too how the fight is going but that's because it's not over yet. I have faith the OotS will get a win... or at least come down swinging like with Greg's horde (as Durkon and Scruffy saved the day last minute).

What we saw on this comic seemed to make a good turnaround following the arrow at the top, although Seniri and Sunny aren't holding back either. It certainly feels epic.

Well, if the Order gets captured, that'd be an opportunity for them to talk with Serini and Sunny in less combative circumstances. Narratively, that could serve a purpose.

But I agree, if that's where this was going, then this fight is having some twists and turns that aren't quite necessary. Could've just have had them all anti-magicked, blinded, poisoned, and eye-rayed once they entered the room and go to the next scene.

[RatElemental]

Well, if the Order gets captured, that'd be an opportunity for them to talk with Serini and Sunny in less combative circumstances. Narratively, that could serve a purpose.

But I agree, if that's where this was going, then this fight is having some twists and turns that aren't quite necessary. Could've just have had them all anti-magicked, blinded, poisoned, and eye-rayed once they entered the room and go to the next scene.

There are some benefits to doing it this way instead of that way. For one, it makes the order look more competent, building them up as the heroes actually capable of standing against Xykon, possibly to be subverted when they actually come to blows with him. Secondly, it could instead be to show Serini as not the unbeatable figure she at first seemed to be, and establish why having her help against Xykon wouldn't tip the scales in the OotS' favor. Thirdly, it's so far given Haley and Elan a chance to shine in combat, which hasn't happened in a while.

[Grey Watcher]

It's an area of effect with a defined shape (conical) and centre. I don't see why aiming and evading would be outside the rules, any more than, say, trying to hit a rapidly-moving flying target with a Cone of Cold.

I don't know if there's strict RAW support for doing that, but it's honestly cool enough that I'd consider it a reasonable houserule. And since OOTS isn't perfect RAW, that's what I'm going to assume is happening.

(If this were 5th Edition, V spending their Reaction to stay out of the cone would be reasonable, I think. But reacting off-turn is a lot more complicated 3e and usually requires feats or class features.)

[WanderingMist]

:smallsigh:

Alright, I'm sorry, but this is getting a little disappointing/stale/predictable now.

This is the third (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html) time (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1122.html) the Order has been in a situation where a fight seemed winnable, possibly even fair by actual GM standards and could go either way, but is completely and horrifically ruined and turned upside down because "oh my god, literally no one made their saving throws".

And (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0930.html) both (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1131.html) those other times resulted in the Order losing the fight because of it, but only narrowly avoiding a TPK because of some external force intervening.

The stakes are lower here, since Serini doesn't actually want to kill them, but that is hardly the point here. This trope of "guys, unlucky saving throws really happen" is fine to use once or twice, but if it's your only tool at your disposal to justify your characters losing every fight at a point where they really could have won if it only weren't for their trash character optimization, I think, is starting to get a little overused for the purposes of storytelling. Does it make the twist of how they end up winning the fight any less cool? No, it doesn't, because the reveals were pretty great. But the "how did we get here" parts before each reveal is starting to get a little too telegraphed for my liking at this point.

So I guess now we sit and watch to see if yet another external force intervenes to save the Order from a fight they could have won yet again, or whether this time they actually really do lose and have to deal with the consequences of that outcome for probably half of the book or something.


Well, I thought we were done with the "pound the Order into a thin paste" song and dance, but well...

This is NOT a game. This is a STORY. This is not "the Order being obliterated", this is an even-handed fight. Fights aren't supposed to be TPKs one way or the other in a story, no matter how often it would happen in a real game. If anything, the Order is doing better than they have any right to be, as they were ambushed by someone who was specifically prepared for and has years of experience on them. Someone, I might add, whose first move was to knock out their two strongest assets but has yet to actually defeat them.


Pretty sure that even if Sunny reestablishes the AMF cone and happens to point it in Bloodfeast's direction -- because Serini and Sunny have no reason to know that he's actually a Polymorphed dinosaur -- he still can't reach high enough to snap at them, or they can just hover higher out of his reach in moments.

Also, what happens if parts of a Polymorphed dinosaur stick out of the AMF cone? Because that will happen as he closes in on Sunny and Serini. Would there be a chimera-like effect as bits extend outside the cone and briefly turn back into tiny lizard form? Because that sounds painful.

I pretty much think that the Order are indeed done here, and Serini is going to get her way and dump them somewhere far away (but plot-relevant) with magically-induced amnesia. It actually might make for a sort of "greatest hits" sort of theme (something not unheard-of in series finales) as the Order trek back through places they've been and people they've interacted with thanks to whatever clues they can deduce, piecing their overarching quest back together on their way to really ending the worldly and cosmic threats in the real dramatic climax of the book.

I think that if Sunny points down again and reveals the dinosaur, it's going to cause a pretty big problem since Serini probably doesn't have the tools to deal with that (or will need to waste what she has prepared and something else will happen, like Roy coming back into play). Well, slight correction, she has one tool to deal with that: Sunny shutting off the AMF, but that comes with its own set of problems.

As for the amnesia thing, doubtful. Mostly since there's just not enough in-comic time for it to be plausible.

[Peelee]

Beholders aren’t in the 3.5 SRD.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm is in the SRD and has been used in the comic.

Enervation (the spell) does not do what you think it does, neither in the comic nor in the SRD.

Also note that scruffy and Elan are not hit with the same spell. Scruffy was hit with charm monster, Elan was (presumably) hit with charm person.

Why are those spells different?

Why’d they change it? I can’t say. I guess they just liked it better that way.

Really, it's nobody's business but the Turks'.

[Dion]

I don't know if there's strict RAW support for doing that, but it's honestly cool enough that I'd consider it a reasonable houserule. And since OOTS isn't perfect RAW, that's what I'm going to assume is happening.

Agreed. I like that V is actively evading the AMF. And I like that an adolescent beholder isn’t exactly designed to be a flying mount, and we’re shown that she’s not doing a very good job of it.

But I don’t think it’s totally 100% being done by the rules.

Oh my!

[RatElemental]

I think that if Sunny points down again and reveals the dinosaur, it's going to cause a pretty big problem since Serini probably doesn't have the tools to deal with that (or will need to waste what she has prepared and something else will happen, like Roy coming back into play). Well, slight correction, she has one tool to deal with that: Sunny shutting off the AMF, but that comes with its own set of problems.

As for the amnesia thing, doubtful. Mostly since there's just not enough in-comic time for it to be plausible.

I highly doubt Sunny will turn the AMF back on, that would bring 5/7th of the order back into play.

[Wintermoot]

:smallsigh:

Alright, I'm sorry, but this is getting a little disappointing/stale/predictable now.

This is the third (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html) time (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1122.html) the Order has been in a situation where a fight seemed winnable, possibly even fair by actual GM standards and could go either way, but is completely and horrifically ruined and turned upside down because "oh my god, literally no one made their saving throws".

And (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0930.html) both (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1131.html) those other times resulted in the Order losing the fight because of it, but only narrowly avoiding a TPK because of some external force intervening.



That is a completely incorrect account of the prior two fights, saying that they were only won due to "an external force intervening". In both fights its the Player Characters instigating the force.

In the Vampire fight, Belkar is brought back to life by two things: A magic item the player of Belkar went out of his way to purchase and his animal companion, an actual class feature of the character.

I would imagine, if this was a real game, the exchanges happening something like this:

Player of Belkar: "Okay, so I am going to the magic shop and try to buy something to protect myself from mind control, like the vampires."

DM: "hmmm okay, they have an amulet that they say will help with that. But when you put it on and activate it, it causes you intense pain."

Player: "oh yeah, what is it an amulet of protection vs evil? They don't actually do anything to someone of evil alignment who wears them."

DM: *irritated* "Well this one does."

Player: "ok, ok. I will go ahead and buy it. Better than nothing."

//several sessions later in the middle of the vampire fight //

DM: "okay, well I guess that's a TPK then, everyone's out right? That just leaves Durkon and your 'trying to talk the vampire out of it' thing you got going on..."

Player: "hang on, my animal companion is still up."

DM: "uh okay, what is your housecat going to do?"

Player: "Mr Scruffy is going to paw at me, trying to wake me up and touch activate the protection from evil amulet"

DM" "hmmm well even if it's activated, it won't wake you up, just protect you from the domination."

Player: "Ah, but remember, you gave me a custom amulet that causes intense pain because I'm evil alignment. Surely that is enough to wake me up."

DM: *realizing he out clevered himself* "uh... yeah I guess so... good thinking"


Meanwhile, in the Tarquin fight, again it was the PLAYER of Elan who instigated the arrival of the outside force by sending to Julio Scoundrel before hand. Again, you can imagine the exchange:

Player of Elan: "Hey before we get started tongith, I had a hell of an idea over the break. So Elan gets Durkon to follow him away from the party for a private conversation"

Player of Roy: "Where are you going?"

Player of Elan: "I can't tell you or it won't come true. Remember, law of narrative."

Player of Roy: *deep sigh*

Player of Elan, Durkon and the DM go into the other room:

Player of Elan: "Okay, so I ask Durkon to cast sending to Julio Scoundrel and here's what I send *hands prepared note to DM*

DM: *reads* *reads again* *looks thoughtfully into the sky* "hmmm... okay.... okay, you don't get a response I guess"

Player of Elan" "no problem. Just giving you some ammunition if you want to use it. hee hee"



As far as "everyone missing their saving throws all the time", Its true that in the OOTS verse, it seems like everyone, PC and NPC, tend to lose on saving throws more often than I would expect in a normal game. But not to the level most people on this forum seem to think.

I think Rich's gaming experiences that he bases his writing on, are probably a lot like mine, based in 2nd and early 3rd/3.5 Edition. In the games I play in, a lot of saving throws actually get missed. Maybe not this many, but certainly more than the TOers on this board would accept. Honestly, if you look at some of the posters on this board, they seem to believe no saving throw should EVER be missed.

The characters in OOTS often have penalties for low scores, especially in wisdom. Elan and Belkar have both been proven to have wisdom penalties and Vaarsuvious would seem to potentially have one as well. So they fail wisdom based saves. Plus they don't have +saving throw gear that optimized players in real life buy for the most part. Still, I would think more than just Durkon would make their save if this was an actual in game fight.

But then this is a story. And the purpose of this actual event is to demonstrate what the beholder's eye rays do to the reader of the comic (most, but not all being familiar with beholders). Its to demonstrate each beam does something different and what the effects are. If they made their saves, it would fail to do that. So narratively, it makes sense.

Its boring if spells fail, interesting if they succeed, so more often they succeed. Makes sense from a story perspective.

I really don't think this is going to end with a defeat of the order, but it is certainly a thrilling fight scene.

Assuming Durkon -did- make his save and isn't stone, he could, for example, use Holy Word, which would take Sunny AND the earth elemental door out of the fight while barely inconveniencing the halfling. Or perhaps Haley can produce a wand. Although if you think that Belkar's animal companion and amulet represents "an external force", then I supposed you'd consider her wands to be one as well.


ON SUNNY'S EYES:

I feel pretty confident that the eight eyes are

Charm Person (on Elan)
Charm Monster (on Mr. Scruffy)
Fear (on Belkar)
Telekinesis (on Haley's Bow)
Slow (on V)
Flesh to Stone (on Durkon)
Sleep (on Dwarf Cleric #2)

I also feel pretty confident than the eighth eye will be Finger of Death rather than Disintegrate or Cause Serious Wounds.

Why? Sunny obviously doesn't want to bring it out which means its dangerous, so that means Finger of Death or Disintegrate. And Disintegrate has been done ad nauseum in this strip. I don't remember Finger of Death at all. So I think that's why it'll be Finger of Death.

[RatElemental]

Assuming Durkon -did- make his save and isn't stone, he could, for example, use Holy Word, which would take Sunny AND the earth elemental door out of the fight while barely inconveniencing the halfling.

I dunno, betting on Serini's friends being nongood doesn't strike me as a particularly solid bet. I'd give that maybe 30% odds of doing nothing besides deafening Belkar.

[KorvinStarmast]

That's not what an over/under is.
I know what the over / under bet is, thanks. I am using a turn of phrase derived from that general concept.
It's almost like people use words, all of the time (see, an example right there) with slight variations from the literal meaning. I'll find the specific language word that describes that some day, but things like 'the wheel of time' are a similar, non literal, application of both the words 'wheel' and 'time'
Awesome. Literally. (hey, I did it again). I could go on and on.

(Not to pick on you, but as an ex-pro gambler, one of my pet peeves is people using "over/under" when they just mean a simple yes/no question.) Since I am not using that turn of phrase on a sports bet, let me explain to you a second time (we have had this conversation before). I use it as "likely" (over) and "not likely" (under) as in "that's where the smart money is." Where did I get that usage from? Dialogue in books and articles by a very good sports author who understands sports betting quite well.
Dan Jenkins.
His novels have that turn of phrase crop up with some frequency when someone is making an observation on something being likely or unlikely, and having naught to do with an actual bet.
Likewise his myriad articles on golf - that turn of phrase crops up there also.
That's where I get it, and that's now I use it.

Really, it's nobody's business but the Turks'.
@Peelee: I am guessing a reference about an old song (Istanbul (not Constantinople)) done by the Four Lads: am I close?

[Wintermoot]

I dunno, betting on Serini's friends being nongood doesn't strike me as a particularly solid bet. I'd give that maybe 30% odds of doing nothing besides deafening Belkar.

good point. I forgot about that part of the spell.

Regardless, it was just an example. There are many other ways. I actually wouldn't be shocked if the next comic starts with Durkon finishing his Neutralize Poison on Roy and Roy waking up (because the poison can't have drained any of his stats to 0, so it has to be a sleep poison of some sort, and neutralize along with a firm shake will get him back in the fight.

[Elkad]

In all my years as DM I never once had a beholder turn itself upside-down.

I rule that tactic brilliant!

(And now I wish I had thought of it back when my players were exploring the Winter Mountains Caverns. I put every kind of eye-monster I could find in there, then made the dungeon dark. There's a level of genius in that. I won't say what level.)

I've considered and discarded it multiple times over the last 4 decades. I decided they were literally dangling from a magical flight organ at the top of their body, and going upside-down would be like doing a one-handed handstand.
Of course with a rider to hang off an eyestalk and alter that balance...

But my players gave me a way to use all the eyes anyway one fight. Someone in the party decided it would be a good idea to fly directly over it...

[TheNecrocomicon]

It's not really "those are the only things that can be discussed", so much as "this forum, and the people and posts within it, have a distinctive character to them-- one that only will discuss it in those ways". There's a certain quote (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?614527-OOTS-1205-The-Discussion-Thread/page13&p=24582395#post24582395) about that, which I keep seeing all the time because it's in TheNecrocomicon's signature.

...Welp, I guess I'm nitpicking just by saying this. I have become my own example.

It just seemed too emblematic and too good of an encapsulating summary of this whole forum not to sig it, once I was reasonably certain that the OP was fine with people doing so.

[Algeh]

I think it never has been, at leats for movement. Even when they were still joking about failing perception checks, everyone was already moving at the same time.

Turn-based is a useful simplification for a tabletop game, but it's just terrible when you're telling a story, or worse, showing an action scene.
I mean, imagine how silly a turn-based chase scene would look like in OotS : Haley runs 60 feet, stops ; Goblin 1 runs 60 feet, stops ; Goblin 2 runs 60 feets, stops ; Elan runs 60 feet...

And that aerial combat scene is pretty much a chase scene, and would look just as stupid.

When picturing an action scene, initiative and turn-order are the fun-killers.

The only time I can think of when a fight was explicitly turn-based was the "hex fight" in the swamp (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html), but that was as part of a joke.

[B. Pseudonym]

ON SUNNY'S EYES:

I feel pretty confident that the eight eyes are

Charm Person (on Elan)
Charm Monster (on Mr. Scruffy)
Fear (on Belkar)
Telekinesis (on Haley's Bow)
Slow (on V)
Flesh to Stone (on Durkon)
Sleep (on Dwarf Cleric #2)

I also feel pretty confident than the eighth eye will be Finger of Death rather than Disintegrate or Cause Serious Wounds.

Why? Sunny obviously doesn't want to bring it out which means its dangerous, so that means Finger of Death or Disintegrate. And Disintegrate has been done ad nauseum in this strip. I don't remember Finger of Death at all. So I think that's why it'll be Finger of Death.

Yeah, that sounds right. Elan's doing that thing he did when Pastor Expiration and co. dominated him, where he calmly proposes hilariously stupid courses of action.

Interesting question about beam #8. At first, I thought it would basically be an academic distinction, because
1. I'm used to 5e, where Finger of Death, Disintegrate, and the equivalent of Cause Serious Wounds are all fairly similar "the beholder shoots an eye ray at you, save or take a bunch of damage" type effects, with most of the differences coming into play when you get knocked unconscious by one, and
2. I don't think Sunny is going to kill anyone in this fight.

3.5 Finger of Death, however, appears to be a much scarier version of Disintegrate, where a failed save just kills you automatically. Even if nobody dies from it right off the bat, knowing that the beholder can do that would probably change the Order's approach to this fight quite a bit.

[PattThe]

It just seemed too emblematic and too good of an encapsulating summary of this whole forum not to sig it, once I was reasonably certain that the OP was fine with people doing so.

Speaking of signatures, nice.


Is anyone else thinking that the story is going to cut away to team evil next comic? I mean, the best way to raise the tension even further would to be to cut to an isolated Bloodwing as Team Evil makes miraculous progress. Wouldn't the worst case scenario (long dark night of the soul, to use a Save The Cat storytelling term) be that Senri, Sunny, and the order all exhaust themselves as we learn that Xykon is closing in at full power?

Edit: I am now convinced that Xykon is going to delete Senri in a few comics.

[Fyraltari]

Is anyone else thinking that the story is going to cut away to team evil next comic?
I don't think so. Usually, this comic cuts away at the last panel of a page rather than between pages. Also it generally doesn't interrupt fight scenes like that.

I mean, the best way to raise the tension even further would to be to cut to an isolated Bloodwing as Team Evil makes miraculous progress. Wouldn't the worst case scenario (long dark night of the soul, to use a Save The Cat storytelling term) be that Senri, Sunny, and the order all exhaust themselves as we learn that Xykon is closing in at full power?
I guess so, but "worst case scenario" does not always translate to "best storytelling path".
Also:

Bloodwing
We've already had an evil twin, we don't need one for Blackwing too.

Edit: I am now convinced that Xykon is going to delete Senri in a few comics.
Doubt it, my guess would be that Serini is going to give the Order more backstory on what exactly went down with the Order of the Scribble (and possibly the World-Within-The-World). She also needs to free the paladins, eventually.

[Samoja1]

Ok, a question, how does Serini's memory elixir thingimajig work? I am assuming she needs to plant false memories of some sort to keep the order out. Here's the big question, does it work somewhat like M&B memory flasher where you actively create false memories? Because if that's true Serini would probably tell the order they won, killed Xykon and Redcloak and saved the world, she does not know they need Redcloak alive and given the way she thinks about the order probably wouldn't assume they would be trying to take prisoners. So it's possible Serini wins but the Order realizes something is wrong because Serini implanted memories inconsistent with what they would have done.

[Fyraltari]

Ok, a question, how does Serini's memory elixir thingimajig work? I am assuming she needs to plant false memories of some sort to keep the order out. Here's the big question, does it work somewhat like M&B memory flasher where you actively create false memories? Because if that's true Serini would probably tell the order they won, killed Xykon and Redcloak and saved the world, she does not know they need Redcloak alive and given the way she thinks about the order probably wouldn't assume they would be trying to take prisoners. So it's possible Serini wins but the Order realizes something is wrong because Serini implanted memories inconsistent with what they would have done.


When I dope you full of it (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1226.html), you'll forget ever seeing me or this place, and you'll report to your boss that you looked high and low and couldn't find anything.
0123456789

[Living Oxymoron]

ON SUNNY'S EYES:

I feel pretty confident that the eight eyes are

Charm Person (on Elan)
Charm Monster (on Mr. Scruffy)
Fear (on Belkar)
Telekinesis (on Haley's Bow)
Slow (on V)
Flesh to Stone (on Durkon)
Sleep (on Dwarf Cleric #2)

I also feel pretty confident than the eighth eye will be Finger of Death rather than Disintegrate or Cause Serious Wounds.

Why? Sunny obviously doesn't want to bring it out which means its dangerous, so that means Finger of Death or Disintegrate. And Disintegrate has been done ad nauseum in this strip. I don't remember Finger of Death at all. So I think that's why it'll be Finger of Death.

I'm almost sure that the effect that affected Elan in those two times he was "charmed" is actually a Dominate Person spell-like effect.

Think about it: he behaves and speaks exactly what Sunny wishes him to do/say. If this was a Suggestion, the spell would have some... suggestion verbalized along with the casting, in that Jedi way we all know (if someone helps me in finding some fuel to this argument in the strips, if it exists, I would appreciate). As seen in the description of the spell:

You influence the actions of the target creature by suggesting a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two). The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the activity sound reasonable. Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/suggestion.htm)

If this was a Charm Person/Charm Monster effect, in the first time Elan was enchanted while the party was resting and waiting for Xykon, Sunny would need to appear before him to give him some instruction (how do you become friendly to someone/something you aren't seeing anyway?!):

The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/charmPerson.htm)

That left us with the domination effect, which, as we have already seen in the past, could even make Elan make arguments in favor of the dominant side (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1124.html). Again, I remind you that through Sunny's enchantment, he is doing and behaving exactly like Sunny wishes him to be, implying that (she?) can give direct instructions to Elan without needing to speak:

You can control the actions of any humanoid creature through a telepathic link that you establish with the subject’s mind.

If you and the subject have a common language, you can generally force the subject to perform as you desire, within the limits of its abilities. If no common language exists, you can communicate only basic commands, such as “Come here”, “Go there”, “Fight” and “Stand still”. You know what the subject is experiencing, but you do not receive direct sensory input from it, nor can it communicate with you telepathically. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominatePerson.htm)

[Fyraltari]

Think about it: he behaves and speaks exactly what Sunny wishes him to do/say. If this was a Suggestion, the spell would have some... suggestion verbalized along with the casting, in that Jedi way we all know (if someone helps me in finding some fuel to this argument in the strips, if it exists, I would appreciate).

Like this? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html) (Fifth-to-last panel.)

[Yendor]

I'm almost sure that the effect that affected Elan in those two times he was "charmed" is actually a Dominate Person spell-like effect.

Maybe? If that's the case, Haley just needs to convince Belkar to give Elan his protective clasp, which should be easy under current circumstances.

[Fyraltari]

Maybe? If that's the case, Haley just needs to convince Belkar to give Elan his protective clasp, which should be easy under current circumstances.

Would that work if Sunny isn't Evil?

[Yendor]

Would that work if Sunny isn't Evil?

Yes. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm) The protection from mental control works regardless of alignment.

[Living Oxymoron]

Like this? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html) (Fifth-to-last panel.)

That will do, thank you very much. :smallbiggrin:


Maybe? If that's the case, Haley just needs to convince Belkar to give Elan his protective clasp, which should be easy under current circumstances.

But the party knows about his item? Belkar was very low-profile when he bought the clasp, and I don't know if the party was in condition to understand what happened when he used it back then against the vampires.

[Fyraltari]

Yes. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm) The protection from mental control works regardless of alignment.
How odd.
Thanks.

That will do, thank you very much. :smallbiggrin:
You're welcome.




But the party knows about his item? Belkar was very low-profile when he bought the clasp, and I don't know if the party was in condition to understand what happened when he used it back then against the vampires.
They know he's got a Protection from Mind Whammy or Whatever (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1104.html) (panel 4).

[TuringTest]

I think it never has been, at leats for movement. Even when they were still joking about failing perception checks, everyone was already moving at the same time.



We've definitely seen round-based movement (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html) before. Of course it was for making fun of the rules, back then when it was common.




Turn-based is a useful simplification for a tabletop game, but it's just terrible when you're telling a story, or worse, showing an action scene.
I mean, imagine how silly a turn-based chase scene would look like in OotS : Haley runs 60 feet, stops ; Goblin 1 runs 60 feet, stops ; Goblin 2 runs 60 feets, stops ; Elan runs 60 feet...



Agreed. But it does't prevent interpreting PC actions as taking place simultaneously, even though they are declared one after another and happen in the same combat round. Narratively it would be the same unless one character takes two actions while someone other takes just one, without a rules explanation of how two actions can happen in the same round.

[RatElemental]

We've definitely seen round-based movement (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html) before. Of course it was for making fun of the rules, back then when it was common.


This (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html) also comes to mind. This time it seems to be to make fun of one trick pony optimizers. This probably pre-dated the advent of ubercharging though.

[danielxcutter]

This (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html) also comes to mind. This time it seems to be to make fun of one trick pony optimizers. This probably pre-dated the advent of ubercharging though.

Ubercharging is arguably even easier to counter than that. Most characters don’t have ranks in Balance. Boom, Grease.

[RatElemental]

Ubercharging is arguably even easier to counter than that. Most characters don’t have ranks in Balance. Boom, Grease.

One of the most common ways to ubercharge is to gain the ability to fly and then bull rush your enemies into the ground to activate dungeoncrasher, instead of needing to have some walls around. Can't really slip if you never touch the ground after all.

[danielxcutter]

One of the most common ways to ubercharge is to gain the ability to fly and then bull rush your enemies into the ground to activate dungeoncrasher, instead of needing to have some walls around. Can't really slip if you never touch the ground after all.

True, but that’s more thought than what I hear most uberchargers players put into tactics. :v

Oh, there’s also things like Counter Charge and Cometary Collision.

[Wintermoot]

I'm almost sure that the effect that affected Elan in those two times he was "charmed" is actually a Dominate Person spell-like effect.


To be honest, when we've seen Charm Person effects in the comic before, Rich treats them more like I've seen DMs treat dominate instead of Charm. So, given that precedent, I'm willing to interpret this as Charm person effects.

Charm is a problematic spell for different DMs adjudicating it differently. The "charmee" is supposed to treat the "charmer" like a close trusted friend while not being forced to do anything outside of their character.

Some players, when charmed, use that as an excuse to try everything to wiggle out of the spirit of the spell. Some DMS, too, when faced with the Players using it. In some campaigns I've been in, its not worth even trying to use because of how you know it will be adjudicated (like illusions and wish spells often are)

So in this case, Elan and Mr. Scruffy now think of Sunny as a close personal friend. In Elan's case, Sunny is now as good of a friend as the rest of the Order. So its in his personality to try and stop the fight and talk this out. So I have no problem with that.

-IF- it was a charm person that caused him to run after Lutey and lead the party into the trap, I -do- have a problem with that. Because, how I adjudicate Charm Person, Sunny would've had to ask him as a friend to go after Lutey and that didn't happen. So that one was absolutely more like a dominate effect.

But it's Rich's story, Rich's world and in Rich's world he adjudicates Charm Person to be more powerful than I do. *shrug* More power to him. It's a spell that needs DM interpretation

I also have a problem with Mr. Scruffy attacking Belkar. So, for my own sanity, I choose to interpret it as Mr Scruffy trying to get Belkar to stop fighting his other close friend.

[Quizatzhaderac]

We've already had an evil twin, we don't need one for Blackwing too.Actually, we already have an evil opposite for Blackwing: Qarr


Oh, there’s also things like Counter Charge and Cometary Collision.Not to be confused with the dashing swordsman ability "commentary collision".

[KorvinStarmast]

3.5 Finger of Death, however, appears to be a much scarier version of Disintegrate, where a failed save just kills you automatically. Even if nobody dies from it right off the bat, knowing that the beholder can do that would probably change the Order's approach to this fight quite a bit.
Original D&D Finger of Death, cast by an Evil High Priest, was 'you are dead unless you make your save." Looks like 3.5 kept that "save or die" theme.

My thief didn't save , and died. I ended up rolling up my first druid as a result.

[Fyraltari]

Actually, we already have an evil opposite for Blackwing: Qarr

Hence "evil twin".

[arimareiji]

I dunno, betting on Serini's friends being nongood doesn't strike me as a particularly solid bet. I'd give that maybe 30% odds of doing nothing besides deafening Belkar.

Very glad to see this post. (^_^)b

Hoping it's a solid sign that we're past the days of "Serini is an evil coward who is evilly trying to help Xykon achieve evil world domination. Because she's so evil. And cowardly." (^_^)°

[Ave]

I see the Order's saving throws remain slaves to the plotline . . .

Reverse plot armor for the loss.

[Fanatic]

My theory is resting upon Rich choosing to use a beholder with eight different eyebeams so he can show everyone suffering a different effect as part of the gag instead of one with double-charm. It’s already a non-standard beholder (they generally have ten small eyes, and per SRD Sunny shouldn’t have been able to aim more than three of them at the folks on the ground), so the idea that he might toss in a non-standard enervation effect on Elan, one based on the meaning of the word rather than the 3.5e or 5e effect, should perhaps not be as shocking as it seems to be.

If Elan continues to act tired and unmotivated in the next strip that will support my theory. If he performs an action a charmed person might perform it will support yours. Right now there’s insufficient evidence to make a call, so I don’t see much point in further debate. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


The entire cast is non-standard, as each of them only has 3 fingers on each hand. The 8 eye-stalk beholder merely fits in with OoTS world standard.

It's not an enervate ability, plain and simple. Enervate in D&D terms is a very specific magical effect, which Elan is not exhibiting. (Even if you go through the mental gymnastics of assuming a 5e beholder here, it still doesn't change the specifics of that magical effect).

[jere7my]

{scrubbed}

[Ghosty]

Never played AD&D but shouldn't more than 2 of them make their save? By now they must be among the highest level adventurers if not characters alltogether!

See what you did there, I have. (I'm still laughing.)

I took a 3 month hiatus to watch a 15th-ish average level party get face-rolled by a juvenile Beholder. And the Epic thrower of Darts of PC Remover. Hilarious.

I'm out. See you in the Fall.

EDIT: Oh, and what jere7my said at the end of his post, immediately upthread. (Didn't see it until I posted.)