Analysis Paralysis Anonymous: LoreBard, lvl 14, 2d Magical Secret (I'm going nuts)

[KorvinStarmast]

Indecision is an awful thing. :smallfrown:
I have two magical secrets available from non bard spells, any non bard spell, and I can't decide on my second choice.

I picked simulacrum for a campaign and role playing reason with choice 1. We need to have, now and again, one of our PCs appear to be somewhere else in the game world as we go off to attempt to thwart the designs and plans of the BBEG and his most powerful servants (to include a lich we have tangled with twice already, but we still have no idea where her phylactery is). We just found a medallion that, for one PC, stops divination spells from finding them. So spell number 1 is chose.
My bard is the party support caster. The sorcerer / warlock is our primary blaster. Blade lock and paladin round out the party. I have thieves tools proficiency and stealth expertise, so I can do enough rogue skill monkey stuff.
Campaign: Open world, some encounters are underground, some at sea, some outdoors, and since level 7 a few have been in other planes. The DM is pretty inventive.

Question: Playgrounders, what are your top 5 Non Bard, level 6 or 7 spells?

My previous magical secrets are: Conjure Animals (3), Counterspell (3), Wall of Force(5), Bigby's Hand(5). (I have slow and heroes' feast as bard spells since DM allows Tasha's added spell list options)

I have been vetting a lot of spells and the finalists are, so far (but I may be missing a trick)

Crown of Stars (non Conc) (if a battle lasts seven rounds, that's a lot of radiant damage, but how many do?)
I have a fleet of ships I am trying to build to thwart the designs of a maritime outposts in the waters near my home, a fleet that will serve a fellow PC if he claims his birthright at some time in the future (he's related to a noble family in the southern kingdom, intrigue plot will be in play if he decides he want to try for the throne. I need to be able to strike quickly and whittle down their fleet first). Plus, I have a pirate/sailor background. Privateer, letters of Marque, and such. Profit!!!!!! :smallsmile:
Whirlwind (Conc)
Reverse Gravity (Conc)
Blade Barrier (Conc)
Heal
Word of Recall
Sunbeam (COnc)
Wind Walk

Feats I have: Con Resilient and Warcaster. I went all in on "I support, I need to make saves frequently" as a specific goal to help with buffs and debuffs.

Other spells of interest are ...
Chain Lightning, Globe of Invulnerability (but I think Wall or force can sub in for that), Delayed Blast Fireball (tempting), Contingency, Otto's Irresistible Dance{edit, already a bard spell if I need it}
(I have been mindful of how many conc spells I tend to have, but to be a support, I think I need them ...)

What are your top five recommendations for a lore bard's magical secret at level 14?
(PS: I don't need plane shift since I have an item that I can do that with)

[Skemo]

I had similar analysis paralysis when I hit 14 (Glamour Bard). I ended up going with Simulacrum and Soul Cage. Soul Cage is great because:


Non-concentration
Does multiple useful things
Only consumes your reaction


Now this is very much campaign dependent, but if you are fighting Humanoids on the regular it is a great spell to have in your arsenal. I ended NOT going with Crown of Stars because I didn't like the fact that it takes your BA (which I'm using for Mantle/Inspo) and is one-dimensional in that it does great damage, but isn't that what the rogue is for?

In the end, there are so many great concentration consumers for bards that I have a hard time advocating for a conc spell with MS unless you are filling a niche in a novel way that no one else in your party can.

[PhantomSoul]

I had similar analysis paralysis when I hit 14 (Glamour Bard). I ended up going with Simulacrum and Soul Cage. Soul Cage is great because:


Non-concentration
Does multiple useful things
Only consumes your reaction


Now this is very much campaign dependent, but if you are fighting Humanoids on the regular it is a great spell to have in your arsenal. I ended NOT going with Crown of Stars because I didn't like the fact that it takes your BA (which I'm using for Mantle/Inspo) and is one-dimensional in that it does great damage, but isn't that what the rogue is for?

In the end, there are so many great concentration consumers for bards that I have a hard time advocating for a conc spell with MS unless you are filling a niche in a novel way that no one else in your party can.

I'm definitely in the same camp (it has to be extra good or extra needed to make up for Concentration [but some spells can if they fit your build], and a L7 slot for pure damage is already a big ask given the alternatives, all the more when it takes a type of action you already have uses for.

Contingency would be my 100% go-to recommendation, to be honest, especially if you tend not to use all of your slots every day and/or have gaps between heavy adventuring days. It works best if you have buffs and the like, though, so it only makes sense if you have things worth pairing with it (e.g. Blink, Mirror Image, or if you regularly want to use something like Greater Invisibility on yourself).

[meandean]

If you had a Druid, Wizard, or Bard in your party, I'd urge conjure celestial. Since you don't, it's probably not optimal, since no one will be able to bind the conjure.*

I'd consider telekinesis. I understand that you could have taken it at 10th so it feels like a waste now, but hey, you can cast it more often since it's lower level... and it's so good for Bards. Much like Bigby's, it can be used for defense or control or damage, and you add Jack of All Trades to the skill checks.

Magic jar is kind of a playstyle unto itself, and not one that appeals to me personally, but it's for sure an extremely powerful spell. (And if disaster strikes, a Bard is at least more likely to make the life-saving Charisma save than a Wizard is.)

BTW, Bards already get Otto's irresistible dance.

* Theoretically, you can get around this with glyph of warding. The problem is that now you're basically investing three spells known into something you may only do once, and that's not very practical for a bard. I wouldn't rule it out altogether, though. It's also plausible to simply not worry about binding your couatl and accept that it's a concentration spell. Couatls are amazing!

[MrStabby]

Absolutely don't feel you need take a high level spell.

If you have something like force cage then you won't get much better for a 7th level slot. Find levels where you are not quite happy with the spells you have or look for a niche to fill.

Take banishment for example. Do you have anything as good for control of a small number of targets? Do you have anything else keyed to a charisma save? And if you want something to use your 6th level spell slots on it scales really well.

Think how many times per day you get to make use of each magical secret. You have more spell slots of level 4+ than you do of level 6+. It isn't a waste to pick a spell you can use more.

[Eldariel]

Contingency is amazing and something I generally love to take. Combine with DD for "get out of jail for free"-button 1/cast. Find Greater Steed is great too, if Contingency doesn't strike your fancy.

[KorvinStarmast]

If you had a druid, wizard, or bard in your party, I'd urge conjure celestial. Since you don't, it's probably not optimal, since no one will be able to bind the conjure.* I need to discuss with DM that one, since I would love to be able to conjure a couatl. But if I can't have one (and if we form a friendship, I'd likely be able to conjure them again I suspect) that would be very cool. (Our DM would probably like the RP dimension of this kind of potential ...)

I'd consider telekinesis. I understand that you could have taken it at 10th so it feels like a waste now, but hey, you can cast it more often since it's lower level... and it's so good for bards. Much like Bigby's, it can be used for defense or control or damage, and you add Jack of All Trades to the skill checks.
Our sorc has it, and I need to review it's place, but when he has used it that is a seriously neat spell.

Magic jar is kind of a playstyle unto itself, and not one that appeals to me personally, but it's for sure an extremely powerful spell. It takes a lot of set up. I'll discuss with the party. We'd do that if it means that I can afflict a particularly difficult enemy ... hmmm...

Contingency is amazing and something I generally love to take. FGS: we made a party decision on that spell; our Paladin has it now.
I already have DD. Will reconsider contingency.

[SharkForce]

ask your DM how he/she thinks planar binding is supposed to work in combination with conjuration spells.

as written, there are no non-concentration summoning spells, which means that as written it can't really extend anything, because when you start casting planar binding, you can no longer concentrate on the spell (and casting it on something that somebody else has conjured and has control of would mean extending that other person's control, which feels odd to say the least).

if the DM is comfortable with allowing planar binding to work somehow or another, which is a standard bard spell, you could easily consider adding a summoning spell to your list and keep that summoned minion around long-term without costing concentration. personally, I'm quite fond of conjure fey but YMMV; maybe you'd rather have elementals (I think myrmidons are around the right CR). or maybe you'd rather have one of the new tasha's summons.

as an added note, being able to temporarily use money to essentially "hire" one or more minions for anywhere from a week to a year could also help quite a bit in dealing with that fleet.

(as a last note, while I don't see people discuss it often, planar binding works just fine on creatures of the appropriate type that you didn't summon as well; if you manage to capture an elemental, fey, celestial or fiend, you can planar bind them too, though they'll certainly be less loyal)

[KorvinStarmast]

bit in dealing with that fleet. I have a marker in with the DM that maybe we play test the summon dragon UA spell (that will soon go live in the dragon book coming out in a few months) but he's insisting that I get an art object from a dragon's hoard - and we recently beat an adult black dragon and then brought him back from 0 HP and began discussing a deal with him. (There are in world reasons for this). I have gotten a grudging agreement to trade something to him for an art object from his hoard. :smallbiggrin: If I pull that off, I may choose that spell. Flying on the back of a dragon for an hour will also be great during battles at sea. Air power at sea (yea, I spent a few IRL decades flying for the Navy) appeals to me a great deal. :smallbiggrin:

[ff7hero]

I'll second the Telekinesis recommendation and point out that it goes amazing with Glibness which you can snag next level.

[SharkForce]

well, I haven't seen the dragon spell, but just to be clear: planar binding (again, a standard bard spell which you could use without costing any magical secrets) does not work on creatures with the dragon creature type, so you won't be able to use planar binding for long term control unless the spell changes the dragon's type.

[Bobthewizard]

I would definitely avoid concentration spells. Between the bard spells and your previous magical secrets, you can take care of a lot of problems, but you have a lot to concentrate on already. So I'd lean towards contingency, heal or find greater steed.

If you think the campaign will play at 18-20 for a significant amount of time, I'd lean towards heal since out of combat spells can be covered by wish at level 18.

[lall]

My bard takes Word of Recall and Heal. These are instantaneous, so while Counterspell is potentially a concern, Detect Magic and Dispel Magic are not and I don’t need to worry about a baddie’s characteristics (the quality of their saves, their creature type, their resistances/immunities, etc.) You have less of a need for Word of Recall though since you have access to Plane Shift.

[Mitchellnotes]

I have a marker in with the DM that maybe we play test the summon dragon UA spell (that will soon go live in the dragon book coming out in a few months) but he's insisting that I get an art object from a dragon's hoard - and we recently beat an adult black dragon and then brought him back from 0 HP and began discussing a deal with him. (There are in world reasons for this). I have gotten a grudging agreement to trade something to him for an art object from his hoard. :smallbiggrin: If I pull that off, I may choose that spell. Flying on the back of a dragon for an hour will also be great during battles at sea. Air power at sea (yea, I spent a few IRL decades flying for the Navy) appeals to me a great deal. :smallbiggrin:

You could do find greater steed. No breath weapon, but could still fly

[PhantomSoul]

My bard takes Word of Recall and Heal. These are instantaneous, so while Counterspell is potentially a concern, Detect Magic and Dispel Magic are not and I don’t need to worry about a baddie’s characteristics (the quality of their saves, their creature type, their resistances/immunities, etc.) You have less of a need for Word of Recall though since you have access to Plane Shift.

And if Counterspell is a fear and ASIs are available (+Tasha's feats are available), getting Subtle Metamagic as a Feat lets you get Word of Recall off in addition to fun shenanigans like Subtle Animate Objects (great for any dinner party you don't find sufficiently entertaining and/or game-of-thrones-y).

[KorvinStarmast]

And if Counterspell is a fear and ASIs are available (+Tasha's feats are available), getting Subtle Metamagic as a Feat lets you get Word of Recall off in addition to fun shenanigans like Subtle Animate Objects (great for any dinner party you don't find sufficiently entertaining and/or game-of-thrones-y).
Given my penchant for shenanigans, that is a decent suggestion. :smallsmile:

You could do find greater steed. No breath weapon, but could still fly I just noticed this.

The mount disappears temporarily when it drops to 0 hit points or when you dismiss it as an action. Casting this spell again re-summons the bonded mount, with all its hit points restored and any conditions removed.
I think this works.
We are in combat, mount goes to 0 HP, disappears, I fall.
I have feather fall, I cast it as a reaction. I float. Next round I summon the trusty griffon and I'm back in the saddle.

Works, yes?

[Eldariel]

I just noticed this.

I think this works.
We are in combat, mount goes to 0 HP, disappears, I fall.
I have feather fall, I cast it as a reaction. I float. Next round I summon the trusty griffon and I'm back in the saddle.

Works, yes?

It has a casting time of 10 minutes so not practical in combat.

[Mitchellnotes]

What feats do you have planned next? If survivability is a concern, mounted combatant would be an oprion. At 14, you're not that far away from it if you decide you need it.

[Gignere]

It has a casting time of 10 minutes so not practical in combat.

Unless it’s cast with glyph of warding shenanigans or you wish cast it.

[KorvinStarmast]

It has a casting time of 10 minutes so not practical in combat. Oh, yeah, check casting time. NvM. :smalleek:

What feats do you have planned next? If survivability is a concern, mounted combatant would be an option. At 14, you're not that far away from it if you decide you need it. At 16, if we are still alive and still have quests to do (if the campaign still has momentum) I am probably going to bump my Con up 1 to 16. and get Skill Expert. I am the 'skill monkey' for this group. I am a lore bard without the History proficiency, so getting proficiency / expertise on that may be what I need. We keep tripping over deep history and "actually, it wasn't always that way" stuff in the campaign. If we are going to take on some of the 'powers of the world' and deal with the engine of the multiverse (aka The Great Mechanism for this campaign world, or my own patron (Leviathan, the deep being whose domain is song, memory and dream) boosting that skill as we try to unwrap a few of the "what's going on?" aspects of the campaign world might be where I go.

But I am also considering Lucky, Alert, and Magic Initiate.
Have not decided.

Mounted Combatant is something I've pondered, since we do have access to griffons as mounts for some adventure, and that dragon spell would make for a nice synergy. The new dragon book should be out before we get to 16, so the DM and I can discuss the details of the spell.

[sambojin]

Conjure Fey? I know you've already got Conjure Animals on your list as a secret, but being able to bring in everything from mammoths/giant crocs to elder/ urban dryads, all the way down to pixies and regular dryads is pretty handy. Yes, Coatls are awesome, but if your DM has been pretty cool with a bit of Conjure Animals on what you can choose, it might be time to abuse spell batteries as well. Bye-bye limited Bard casting list (there's just as many good spells on the Fey's list as there is on CR2 Coatl forms for it to turn into, as well as some combat forms for melee sponging) and wondering if pseudo-lowlvl-slot-recharge is any good.

Or, if it's not a hugely aerial-enemy based campaign, Reverse Gravity. Because lots of hurty levitation is always hilarious. Probably best to do something that no-one else can though, and that would be Conjure Celestial or Conjure Fey (pretend it's like Limited Wish if you want. It sort of is).

It's sort of what you already do, just better in every way.

[KorvinStarmast]

Absolutely don't feel you need take a high level spell.

If you have something like force cage then you won't get much better for a 7th level slot. Find levels where you are not quite happy with the spells you have or look for a niche to fill.

Take banishment for example. Do you have anything as good for control of a small number of targets? Do you have anything else keyed to a charisma save? And if you want something to use your 6th level spell slots on it scales really well. Banishment is a great spell, that's for sure. I have a warlock who uses it a lot in a different game. I usually use a 4th level slot to put Freedom of Movement on our Blade Lock if it looks like a fight; I don't like to see him slowed down, held, etc. He's scary lethal when he gets into his groove. (The thing I have keyed to a charisma save is the item that allows me to use plane shift). When we fight other casters, It is not infrequent that I burn a level 4 slot for counter spell once all of the thirds are gone. I expect that as we get to higher levels that will only get worse.

Conjure Fey?
This feature I am not keen on.

If your concentration is broken, the fey creature doesn’t disappear. Instead, you lose control of the fey creature, it becomes hostile toward you and your companions, and it might attack. An uncontrolled fey creature can’t be dismissed by you, and it disappears 1 hour after you summoned it.

I know you've already got Conjure Animals - they don't turn on me if I lose concentration. :smallbiggrin:

Or, if it's not a hugely aerial-enemy based campaign, Reverse Gravity. Because lots of hurty levitation is always hilarious. It has a particular application for maritime battles when I take on the enemy ships, but also nice for disrupting a cult's activities if they have a ritual they are doing. (We ran into this before in this campaign: a bunch of clerics of modest level were doing a ritual together and we had to take them out to stop it. With Reverse Gravity, they go up, they fall, and the whole congregation gets to deal with 10d6 damage from falling (or a bit less if it's an indoor temple)

There's also the "when you conjure you clutter up the turn order" problem in play, though our group / table / DM has handled my two direwolves / two giant octopi schtick well enough.

I just realized how to better use Bigby's hand against giants and other strong creatures. Cutting words allows me to deduct a bardic inspiration die from the opposing ability roll. My hand gets +8 and the opposing check gets - 1d10. Occasinoally useful, though I usually use CW to prevent a hit/damage.

[PhantomSoul]

I'll second the Telekinesis recommendation and point out that it goes amazing with Glibness which you can snag next level.

And with Jack of All Trades; as a Bard you get to add half of your Proficiency Bonus to the Telekinesis Ability Check too. As a bonus since the Subtle Animate Objects and Subtle Word of Recall options were appreciated, Telekinesis also becomes Componentless with Subtle!


EDIT for clarity: I wouldn't have both Telekinesis and Bigby's Hand, though, unless you were sure you could make use of both. But Telekinesis a great deal of fun if it fits, and it using future Actions can be a flaw or a perk depending on your style.

[KorvinStarmast]

And with Jack of All Trades; as a Bard you get to add half of your Proficiency Bonus to the Telekinesis Ability Check too. As a bonus since the Subtle Animate Objects and Subtle Word of Recall options were appreciated, Telekinesis also becomes Componentless with Subtle! Maybe I should have taken that instead of Bigby's hand. My mistake.

I wouldn't have both Telekinesis and Bigby's Hand, though, unless you were sure you could make use of both. But Telekinesis a great deal of fun if it fits, and it using future Actions can be a flaw or a perk depending on your style. Concur. My mistake not to think through both of those, and not realize my ability check benefit would not apply to the hand. But I do like the Armor Class 20 and my HP worth of HP feature that will be occasionally useful. And I can use it to deliver the world's largest pizza at a surprise party. :smallbiggrin:

[PhantomSoul]

Maybe I should have taken that instead of Bigby's hand. My mistake.
Concur. My mistake not to think through both of those, and not realize my ability check benefit would not apply to the hand. But I do like the Armor Class 20 and my HP worth of HP feature that will be occasionally useful. And I can use it to deliver the world's largest pizza at a surprise party. :smallbiggrin:

For what it's worth, I personally prefer Bigby's, so I would've (and have!) made the same choice! Bigby's is more flexible. (So things like Subtle shenanigans have to be unique enough in the ability set to be worthwhile... but often I could just Animate Objects if I wanted that.)

[Kvess]

I can see that you already have great suggestions in this thread, so I thought I would offer some more unusual alternatives.

Destructive Wave — This checks a ton of boxes. 10d6 damage of rarely resisted types, in an area of effect, targeting creatures of your choice, and knocks them prone for your allies to finish off. Thematically interesting for a naval leader.

Armor of Agathys — A pool of temporary hitpoints and retaliatory damage that scales well at higher levels. The ice could be drawing in frozen seawater.

Arcane Eye — The best scouting spell in the game. Invisible, sees in darkness, moves 30 feet. Plot out dungeons and spy on enemy ships.

Find Greater Steed — Imagine carrying a boarding party to an enemy ship on the back of a gryphon.

Aura of Purity — Tired of dealing with debuffs? This aura prevents your allies from being affected by a wide range of conditions.

[LudicSavant]

I picked simulacrum for a campaign and role playing reason with choice 1.
A very strong choice.


Crown of Stars (non Conc) (if a battle lasts seven rounds, that's a lot of radiant damage, but how many do?)

Crown of Stars lasts an hour, so it's more a question of how many battles you're having in that time period, rather than how many battles last 7 rounds.


My previous magical secrets are: Conjure Animals (3), Counterspell (3), Wall of Force(5), Bigby's Hand(5). (I have slow and heroes' feast as bard spells since DM allows Tasha's added spell list options)

I usually avoid taking 5th level spells with 10 level Magical Secrets, because the Bard's spell list is already so good for 5ths (Synaptic Static, Animate Objects, etc).

Folks often assume that you should be taking the max level spell you can learn when grabbing Magical Secrets, but it is often at least as valuable to take key lower level spells. Reaction spells, concentrationless buffs, class-feature-like spells like Find Greater Steed, and so forth are all options.

You also seem to be grabbing a lot of Concentration spells -- 3/4 of your existing picks, plus several of your new candidates. In addition to whatever you've got from your actual Bard spells known.


Other spells of interest are ...
Chain Lightning, Globe of Invulnerability (but I think Wall or force can sub in for that), Delayed Blast Fireball (tempting), Contingency, Otto's Irresistible Dance

Delayed Blast Fireball is little more than an upcast Fireball that interferes with your many Concentration spells. Otto's is already on the Bard list. Globe of Invulnerability can do some important things Wall of Force can't (like deactivate a Wall of Force), Chain Lighting is just okay as far as blast spells go but at least it's not Concentration and won't give you friendly fire concerns.

Contingency is a game-changer spell, like a class feature in its own right, and can be used by Bards in pretty unique ways (for example, if they pick up Find Greater Steed, they can share Contingency to it).

Contingency is especially useful if you don't have all your adventuring days consecutively, because you can basically cast it and a 5th level spell on a slow day, then activate it (slot free and action-economy free) on a


(I have been mindful of how many conc spells I tend to have, but to be a support, I think I need them ...)

Why do you feel you need an abundance of Conc spells to be a support?

[KorvinStarmast]

1. We made a group decision to not double up on FGS. Some levels ago.

Why do you feel you need an abundance of Conc spells to be a support? 2. Because in play, in our group, it works.
3. Heroes Feast is expensive, but now that I have it I cast it as a prep spell. (non conc)
4. FoM: I cast it on our blade lock, his saves suck, before we start a battle. (We are doing a better job of scouting lately). (non conc)
5. Slow, Hypnotic patter, and conjure animals are still working for us. So too is Hold Monster. (all Conc) The paladin and blade lock do great damage, our sorc/lock is blasty. Polymorph (Conc) is still an option if I need to temporarily turn an enemy into a snail or a turtle for a little while as the party takes out someone else, or we flee.

My job is to shape the battlefield, and most of the spells that do that are concentration spells. (Blind/Deaf at level 2 is a nice non-conc debuff, but conc saves tend to go up in tier 3). It's currently my only second level spell.

6. Counterspell isn't conc, and I think I have used that spell more than any other single spell in the game since I got it at 6.

7. Contingency + DD is still something I am pondering.

8. Wall of force: when it works it really, really works. (Conc) (We had a wizard in a previous game I played who shaped the battlefield with that spell masterfully. That informed my choice).

9. Of all of the spells I wish I had reconsidered, Bigby's is the one that has disappointed me the most. I thought I'd get more out of it to date, but it has not panned out that way. Maybe in the next few sessions it will turn out to be a great choice. If I lose my love for it, I'll probably drop it for Synaptic Static.

10. I am also considering Heal. (non conc). We've noticed that some of our high CR opponents can do big damage spikes if my battlefield controls spells get saved against or a Legendary Resistance nullifies them.

11. The Whirlwind/Reverse Gravity decision is me looking ahead a few levels, to the maritime campaign we are probably going to undertake if our sorc-lock decides to make a bid for the crown in his home country/kingdom. As it turns out, we discovered during play that his family's noble blood line has a (semi legit) claim to the throne.
We need to demonstrate why he's going to lead that kingdom to prosperity.
My idea is that by pushing back the Ship Folk who are encroaching into our maritime trade zone (I am from the same general region as he, southern part of the continent, the other two are from up north), his name gets associated with that successful campaign. (As a bard, I am already doing 'influencer/propaganda' stuff in the northern capital. I intend to do stuff like that down south as well, when and if he tries to make that political move).

12. As you can see, I am putting a lot of pressure on myself to get a 'just right' spell that helps for the group, not that helps my bard per se.

13. The flip side of this is that Contingency/DD, or Contingency (something else) may allow me to get away and then resurrect someone who dies if we have one of those 'it went horribly wrong' moments.

14. And for pure fun, calling up my own dragon to fly around on just makes me grin. Dm and I are discussing that spell at this time.

As the title says, I am driving myself nuts. :smallbiggrin:

[Guy Lombard-O]

It has a particular application for maritime battles when I take on the enemy ships, but also nice for disrupting a cult's activities if they have a ritual they are doing. (We ran into this before in this campaign: a bunch of clerics of modest level were doing a ritual together and we had to take them out to stop it. With Reverse Gravity, they go up, they fall, and the whole congregation gets to deal with 10d6 damage from falling (or a bit less if it's an indoor temple).

I sincerely hope that you, as a bard, would take quite seriously your duty to burst into a rousing rendition of "It's raining men" whenever this actually occurs...?

[KorvinStarmast]

I sincerely hope that you, as a bard, would take quite seriously your duty to burst into a rousing rendition of "It's raining men" whenever this actually occurs...? Yes, that is indeed part of the plan. We are also guilty of a lot of horrid pus in our world.
:smallbiggrin:

Just to let you know, I have already written parody song lyrics for our party, capturing our various adventures and what the heroes did during battles, that use the following songs as their base:

Molly Malone (Irish folk song)
Allison Gross (Steeleye Span)
Gallows Pole (Led Zepplin)
Iron Man (Black Sabbath)
Thirty Days in the Hole (Humble Pie)
He has Covered Himself in Glory (which is based some O.T. references and liturgical music (https://www.noelchabanel.org/psalms/ABC_Easter_Vigil_after_3rd_Reading/) - this one is about our Oath of Glory Paladin)
Season of the Witch (Donovan)
Blackbird (Beatles)
Blinded by the Light (Bruce Springstein, but the Manfred Man cover is what inspired me)
Wake Me Up Inside (Evanescence, but that's in rewrite)
Legend of a Mind (Moody Blues)
Bad Company (Bad Company)
The Outsider (Ian Hunter)

It's Rainin' Men would be an awesome addition if the right adventure events happen. :smallbiggrin:

I just noticed that two of my favorite bands -- ZZ Top and the Rolling Stones -- I have not yet done a riff on. For me, that's odd. Hmm, need to figure out how to fit one of them in. My bard might fit into ZZ Top's Heartbreaker (Tejas album) and there's so much material I can use for the 'Stones that that the sky is the limit. But for my Bard, I am more likely to take She Drives me Crazy (Fine Young Cannibals) for her new theme song.

[Yakk]

So, as a bard who has made powerful spell selection choices at level 6 and 10, and at level 18 will probably grab wish, you have what I like to call some fun money.

Pick two spells that are fun and fit your character concept.

As noted, you have plenty of Conc effects. Get something non-conc to have fun with. The crown of stars; would it be fun to do more damage and you don't have bonus action? Then grab it.

Even something as non-optimized soul cage -- do you defeat humanoids often? How about being able to force X number of honest answers from their dead souls sound? Does stealing the souls of your foes fit your character concept?

Plane Shift -- is planar crossing part of your short or medium term plans? Does someone else have it?

[Hael]

Contingency is a game-changer spell, like a class feature in its own right, and can be used by Bards in pretty unique ways (for example, if they pick up Find Greater Steed, they can share Contingency to it).


Indeed. It's also one of those spells (along with Simulacrum and Magic Jar) that kinda break a lot of the rules of the game, and where you can start turning things into a bit of a mess for a DM. They'll often invent reasons why such and such a thing *doesnt* work, so depending on the DM you don't always get much utility out of it at all.

Strong spells like find greater steed and summon celestial are more within the confines of what came before (just better) and so might get full usage.

[KorvinStarmast]

So, as a bard who has made powerful spell selection choices at level 6 and 10, and at level 18 will probably grab wish, you have what I like to call some fun money.

Pick two spells that are fun and fit your character concept.

As noted, you have plenty of Conc effects. Get something non-conc to have fun with. The crown of stars; would it be fun to do more damage and you don't have bonus action? Then grab it.

Even something as non-optimized soul cage -- do you defeat humanoids often? How about being able to force X number of honest answers from their dead souls sound? Does stealing the souls of your foes fit your character concept?

Plane Shift -- is planar crossing part of your short or medium term plans? Does someone else have it? I have an item, otherwise plane shift would likely be a first pick.

Indeed. It's also one of those spells (along with Simulacrum and Magic Jar) that kinda break a lot of the rules of the game, and where you can start turning things into a bit of a mess for a DM. They'll often invent reasons why such and such a thing *doesnt* work, so depending on the DM you don't always get much utility out of it at all. DM and I are already engaging on 'how simulacrum works, and how it doesn't work' together so we fit that spell into his world. (We are both averse to the infamous wish/simulacrum cheese so often discussed here at GiTP) and it's coming together nicely.
We have a good trust relationship.
Which means that something like Planar Ally becomes more appealing.

Granted, the only two extra terrestial beings I have met so far are basically the Watcher (Death) and The White Skull (also a warlock patron, and also something like a powerful fiend/infernal). I am connected to this powerful being called Leviathan by song (song magic in this world was the first ever kind of magic, and I am a bard, and I have been visited in dreams by this entity's voice) so I may be able to contact somehow Leviathan and try and have it send me a planar ally.

Need to work that out with the DM, because that approach, planar ally, opens up an immense can of role playing worms - fun, for our group :smallsmile: - that I believe that our players will thrive on.

OK, all I am doing is making this harder on myself. Own Goal!

Strong spells like find greater steed and summon celestial are more within the confines of what came before (just better) and so might get full usage. Yeah.

@Yakk:
The Fun Spell is the dragon summoning spell from UA and we suspect the new dragon book. It's still an option we are considering. Once a day, I get to summon a dragon and ride her / him around. Wheeeeeeeeeee! :smallbiggrin:
We discussed soul cage yesterday (my group and I, and the DM) and while it's a neat spell, it really doesn't fit my bard's personality or style, so I dropped that one from the list.

At level 18 will probably grab wish, you have what I like to call some fun money.
Provided we get that far, at 17 I will dump Resurrection and grab True Resurrection (Unless the DM decides "just doesn't fit the world" ) and grab True Polymorph. That lets me turn into an adult gold dragon and take my party for a ride once a day. Fun spell. :smallbiggrin:

The DM and I are working out the wrinkles in my idea to get a big old object and turn it into a young silver dragon: he's not too keen on that prospect, world building wise, since each dragon has a soul and where does this dragon's soul come from? We are working out how I can do that (if I can do that) without offending every dragon on the planet :smallbiggrin:
Yeah, they do talk to each other.
Pretty soon 'in world' there will be a council of dragons. We have been informed of this by a dragon we have become allied with. We may even be allowed to be observers. (How cool is that? :smallsmile: )
The last thing I want to have come out of that council is an agreement across all colors and metals and gems of dragon to put my (admittedly beautiful) face onto wanted posters
"Wanted, dead or alive, Dil the Bard"
signed by all of the ancient dragons on the planet.

I am all about self promotion, and not averse to a bit of notoriety, but not interested in being that (in)famous! :smallbiggrin:

At 18 I will for sure grab wish.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Yes, that is indeed part of the plan. We are also guilty of a lot of horrid pus in our world.
:smallbiggrin:

Just to let you know, I have already written parody song lyrics for our party, capturing our various adventures and what the heroes did during battles, that use the following songs as their base:

Molly Malone (Irish folk song)
Allison Gross (Steeleye Span)
Gallows Pole (Led Zepplin)
Iron Man (Black Sabbath)
Thirty Days in the Hole (Humble Pie)
He has Covered Himself in Glory (which is based some O.T. references and liturgical music (https://www.noelchabanel.org/psalms/ABC_Easter_Vigil_after_3rd_Reading/) - this one is about our Oath of Glory Paladin)
Season of the Witch (Donovan)
Blackbird (Beatles)
Blinded by the Light (Bruce Springstein, but the Manfred Man cover is what inspired me)
Wake Me Up Inside (Evanescence, but that's in rewrite)
Legend of a Mind (Moody Blues)
Bad Company (Bad Company)
The Outsider (Ian Hunter)

It's Rainin' Men would be an awesome addition if the right adventure events happen. :smallbiggrin:

I just noticed that two of my favorite bands -- ZZ Top and the Rolling Stones -- I have not yet done a riff on. For me, that's odd. Hmm, need to figure out how to fit one of them in. My bard might fit into ZZ Top's Heartbreaker (Tejas album) and there's so much material I can use for the 'Stones that that the sky is the limit. But for my Bard, I am more likely to take She Drives me Crazy (Fine Young Cannibals) for her new theme song.

Okay, cool. Looks like you've got it "covered"...:smallbiggrin:

[LudicSavant]

2. Because in play, in our group, it works.
Okay, but you said you need it. That means more than it working, it means it’s a requirement for it to work.

You don’t need Bigby’s Hand to be a support. You can take some things to improve the rest of your action economy beyond Concentration. You don’t need to feel obliged to overstock on Concentration spells, especially when there’s so many good choices already on the Bard list (eg not from Magical Secrets).

[KorvinStarmast]

Okay, but you said you need it. That means more than it working, it means it’s a requirement for it to work.

You don’t need Bigby’s Hand to be a support. No, but I picked it because I thought it would be useful. It has a lot of out of combat uses; as it turns out it wasn't what I had hoped it would be. I was tempted as heck to get the summon celestial from Tasha's with this slot.

Part of my problem was that I have expertise in athletics, and I figured that would translate to the hand's shove and grab stuff. As we reviewed the rules later on, we discovered that I did not think that through and that it didn't work that way.

It's still a fun spell, but my other choice at that level was Synaptic Static .

In retrospect, had I paid a bit more attention to where I can apply my expertise, I'd have probably taken Telekenisis since it fits what I like to do thematically better. When I discussed SS we still figured that our sorcerer was better at blasting.

[meandean]

You don't need Magical Secrets to take synaptic static! It's a Bard spell!

[KorvinStarmast]

Okay, but you said you need it. No, I didn't say I needed Bibgy's Hand in isolation.
I chose it. (see below for why).
My general case for conc spells is that most of the ones I use the most are conc spells. (Other than counter spell).

You don’t need Bigby’s Hand to be a support. Here's an idea: don't try to tell grandma how to suck eggs. I learned as a cleric how important things like Bless are to the party. A bunch of other spells that are useful (Spirit Guardians being but one, banishment, etc) also need concentration.

I've played a lot of support characters for this whole edition though most of them were clerics, a few warlocks, and one sorcerer. This is my first bard in Tier 3.

As regards Bigby's hand:
(a) I wanted it (but was mistaken with how far I could exploit it, my mistake) and
(b) it can be used to support by holding things down (restrained) of any size up to Huge while the martials beat the bejesus out of it. (You only get adv on the grapple if the target is medium or smaller)
With cutting words, my chances of succeeding on that grapple are decent - their (enemy) roll being on average -5.5. It can also be used just to beat on something for 4d8 per round that is 60 feet away. And you can sometimes grab an enemy who is trying to escape. And, I can use it as a shield (well, AC boost)
So another appeal of that spell is its flexibility.

You don't need Magical Secrets to take synaptic static! It's a Bard spell!
I know that, but if I let go of Bigby's (I was having a bit of buyer's remorse during level 11, since it wasn't working as I had hoped) I don't get to replace it with a non bard spell, I have to replace it with a bard spell. (that's the understanding we have at the table anyway).

The actual competitor on the day I made my final decision was the Summon Celestial. (Tasha's)

I was also, at the same time as I chose Magical secrets (for me, Wall of Force was a no brainer) I was also trying to choose two other Bard 5 spells. S.S. was in the running, but I chose Dominate Person and Hold Monster; I have since dropped Dominate Person, that was a poor choice on my part.
It happens. I replaced it with Tongues.

I finally chose against that since I already had a minion spell: conjure animals. There is, as I noted above, some interesting utility with Bigby's for a bard with an AC of 15.

Static is still an option later when I do a spell swap, but at the moment we don't need it, or, if Bigby's just loses its charm I can replace it with a bard spell like S.S.

About Crown of Stars:
One of you pointed out that the crown lasts an hour, and thus could be useful in more than one fight. (Which really depends on pacing, but there it is, that is a benefit if we get into a running battle kind of scenario).
That's a very good point.
It also eats a bonus action, which I had to consider carefully.
I still apply BI in combat with some frequency (boosts to saving throws is where that tends to get used) and that takes a bonus action.
It's a really neat spell, but I finally decided that other choices (see Ludic's excellent point on contingency, for example) might be a better value.

[LudicSavant]

One of you pointed out that the crown lasts an hour, and thus could be useful in more than one fight. (Which really depends on pacing, but there it is, that is a benefit if we get into a running battle kind of scenario).
That's a very good point.

That was me. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25139865&postcount=27)


No, I didn't say I needed Bibgy's Hand in isolation.

Nor did I say that you said that.

You said that you thought you needed your abundance of conc spells. My response to which is what you just quoted: You don't necessarily need all of them to be a support. You can drop one or more (such as Bigby's Hand), and you'll still be a support.


(I have been mindful of how many conc spells I tend to have, but to be a support, I think I need them ...)

[KorvinStarmast]

That was me. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25139865&postcount=27)
Ah, OK, I could have sworn it was you but when I went back, didn't pick it out of the various posts. Thanks.

Nor did I say that you said that. That's how it came across; seems we crossed wires there.

My response to which is what you just quoted: You don't necessarily need all of them. OK, so I guess you picked Bigby's as an example. Got it.
As I noted in the post above, I dropped Dominate Person (conc, single humanoid) for a utility spell (tongues) for three reasons: (a) overloaded on conc spells (b) I'm a bard, how can I not have tongues? (The only language I know other than Common currently is Primordial) (c) I am a bit overloaded with higher level spells. And ... we are going all over the world these days, it seems, as the campaign expands in new directions.

[LudicSavant]

OK, so I guess you picked Bigby's as an example of one that is a conc spell. Got it.

Yep, exactly.

[KorvinStarmast]

Yep, exactly. Just as a follow up: I have developed what is perhaps an unhealthy obsession with keeping conc spells up given the number of times they have dropped since late 2014.
I suspect that in a non feat game I'd go nuts before it was over.
It's almost a default for me to take Res/Con, and I usually take warcaster once I get the casting stat to 18. (My tome lock has it).

I am about to be tested in a newly begun Curse of Strahd game. No vHuman, and thus no res con at level 1. My half elf Knowledge Cleric is about to have his patience tested. :smalleek:

As to the obsession, it informs a lot of my choices. We rescued (this bard's party) an elf princess from a death cult and as a reward, each PC was allowed to pick one rare item (or lower) subject to DM veto, as their reward. The largesse of the elven royals was, as you might say, substantial.

I picked the shadowfell brand tattoo. besided darkvision and advantage on stealth (I already had expertise) it offers a once per day 'cut damage in half' feature.

When a dragon hits you for 63 damage with a breath weapon, and you fail your save, cutting it in half to 31 means you only need a 15 Con save to keep concentration up on the hold monster you have on the allied fire giant. Proficiency and advantage? That helped, and I did make the save. Yes, I could have failed, but you are good enough at the math to see how I tried to make sure that "the odds were in my favor!" (But if the dragon had recharged on the next round, I would have been Bardic Toast!)

[LudicSavant]

Just as a follow up: I have developed what is perhaps an unhealthy obsession with keeping conc spells up given the number of times they have dropped since late 2014.
I suspect that in a non feat game I'd go nuts before it was over.
It's almost a default for me to take Res/Con, and I usually take warcaster once I get the casting stat to 18. (My tome lock has it).

I have found that many of the best ways to keep Concentration up are those that do not directly boost your Concentration checks. Try thinking outside of the Res(Con) box and see how that goes.

(I'm not saying don't take those feats -- they're good feats -- I'm just saying also consider other avenues that also make it harder to break your Concentration. For example, Moderately Armored + the Shield spell and/or Cutting Words + better control spell tactics can dramatically lower the number of times you need to make a Concentration check in the first place. So can things like, say, riding on a Find Steed and sharing a Cutting Words-synergized Armor of Agathys to it. Or choosing your spells carefully such that once you've put something down, the enemy isn't really able to retaliate).

[PhoenixPhyre]

I have found that many of the best ways to keep Concentration up are those that do not directly boost your Concentration checks. Try thinking outside of the Res(Con) box and see how that goes.

(I'm not saying don't take those feats -- they're good feats -- I'm just saying also consider other avenues that also make it harder to break your Concentration. For example, Moderately Armored + the Shield spell and/or Cutting Words + better control spell tactics can dramatically lower the number of times you need to make a Concentration check in the first place. So can things like, say, riding on a Find Steed and sharing a Cutting Words-synergized Armor of Agathys to it. Or choosing your spells carefully such that once you've put something down, the enemy isn't really able to retaliate).

Armor of Agathys does nothing for concentration checks (it's just THP, and unlike the Abjuration ward, you still took that damage and still need to make the save). And it's a rare steed that can outpace a dragon; there's only rarely enough room to really out-range things (since melee isn't the real threat to him). And speaking as the DM, the vast majority of the things that have provoked significant Concentration saves from him were things that none of those would have helped with. AoEs are the big one, saving throw spells/abilities are the other big one. Basically all it would help with would be ranged attacks, and the extra 2 or so AC isn't much there. And I rarely do solos, so there's usually plenty of non-affected things able to go smack him.

[LudicSavant]

it's just THP, and unlike the Abjuration ward, you still took that damage and still need to make the save

Yes, but I wasn't saying that the THP somehow stops you from making a check when you get hit. I'll explain:


Armor of Agathys does nothing for concentration checks

It doesn't need to directly boost your Concentration saves. All it needs to do is make it a losing choice on the decision tree to attack you.

If you make it a losing choice on the decision tree to attack you, then either A) they won't, and you maintain your Concentration more often or B) they do, and you win.

Obviously, this is mainly effective for dealing with melee-based foes. Other kinds of foes are countered by other tools.


AoEs are the big one, saving throw spells/abilities are the other big one.

Then that's a perfectly good example of the principle I'm talking about too: By improving your ability to deal with spells, abilities, and AoEs, you can help protect your Concentration -- even if you don't directly boost your Concentration saves.

For example, Counterspell, Absorb Elements, Contingency, stealth, etc all help here. So do mobility features (since they let you position better and, in turn, make it harder for enemies to AoE everyone in the party. And benefit from cover more often, too). So does stuff like, say, using the right Concentration spell so that the enemy can't really respond once you've used it (ex: after I put the creature in the Wall of Force, it can't AoE me). Since the OP's Lore Bard has Simulacrum, they can be particularly aggressive on this point (since they can basically have two Concentration spells going at once, for wombo combos).

All I'm saying is to keep an eye out for ways that you can indirectly protect your Concentration. That can take an awful lot of forms -- it can be cutting the damage you take (which causes you to have lower DC saves), it can be causing enemies to miss, it can be disincentivizing foes from attacking you (ideally, making it so that if they do, it's a winning deal for you), it can be positioning better, it can be locking down their options, it can be all sorts of stuff.

[KorvinStarmast]

Cutting Words and trying to find cover are already things I do tactically to avoid getting hit. Also, Slow does reduce the total number of attacks coming our way, which does reduce the number of chances to get attacked in the first place.
Increasing armor class from 15 to 17 or 18 hardly changes how often one gets hit (experientially, in Tier 3) as I watch the dice rolls and all of the plusses that the monsters get. I am pretty sure you have a table on that somewhere, though.

Which takes us to blindness/deafness. That spell, non conc, when it lands means I and others can avoid getting attacked at all in a lot of cases. :smallsmile: And I use it.
Similarly, Dissonant Whispers is still in my kit, and when the enemy runs off I'm not likely to be attacked by that one and often our martial can get a quick OA as they run away.

Have seen the discussion on command and how it can be upcast. It can, but I've chosen DW anyway since my slots of 3 and higher are used up by counterspell with some frequency. Granted, Command up-cast to level two might be another good debuff along the lines of your advice, to avoid being attacked in the first place when it lands. (By "lands" I mean the target fails their Wisdom Save)

For example, Counterspell, Absorb Elements, Contingency, stealth, etc all help here.
Have counterspell and expertise in stealth.
Hiding from the adult dragon with a 26 on the stealth roll didn't get past his perception and blindsight, unfortunately.
Still thinking about contingency, per your suggestion.


So does stuff like, say, using the right Concentration spell so that the enemy can't really respond once you've used it (ex: after I put the creature in the Wall of Force, it can't AoE me).
I have WoF, and as I noted above, when it works it really works.
In one recent battle it took one of three opponents (all powerful damage dealers in their own right) completely out of the fight.
Since the OP's Lore Bard has Simulacrum, they can be particularly aggressive on this point (since they can basically have two Concentration spells going at once, for wombo combos). At such time as we are both on the battlefield, yeah, I have a chance to pull some shenanigans; at the moment, the simulacrum is serving a strategic purpose by helping an ally protect our stronghold (well it's under construction) and appearing to be somewhere (our enemy has spies!) where my bard actually isn't. :smallsmile:

All I'm saying is to keep an eye out for ways that you can indirectly protect your Concentration.
Yeah, that's great advice, and a lovely byproduct of this question/thread.

That can take an awful lot of forms -- it can be cutting the damage you take (which causes you to have lower DC saves), it can be causing enemies to miss, it can be dis-incentivizing foes from attacking you (ideally, making it so that if they do, it's a winning deal for you), it can be positioning better, it can be locking down their options, it can be all sorts of stuff. I am in violent agreement on all of this, and already apply some of it in play.
The purpose of this thread is "make up your freaking mind, Korvin!" (that's my internal monologue coming out) and my appeal for assistance there.
This related sub discussion, however, has much value.
Thanks again, to one and all.
I have a couple of RL weeks to make a final decision, before play resumes since a number of us are taking RL induced breaks. I'll let you know what my final choice is.

[LudicSavant]

Increasing armor class from 15 to 17 or 18 hardly changes how often one gets hit (experientially, in Tier 3) as I watch the dice rolls and all of the plusses that the monsters get. I am pretty sure you have a table on that somewhere, though.

What's the 17 or 18 figure from?

If you want to bump a Bard's AC, the Moderately Armored half-feat alone can bump from 14 to 19+ base AC, then they add Shield or Cutting Words on top of that (or potentially even both at once, if the Bard has a Simulacrum in play). And then they can cut enemy accuracy further still with their many ways of efficiently applying Disadvantage.

[Yakk]

Level 17 simulacrum shinanigans is to produce a simulacrum of yourself, then true polymorph *that* into a dragon.

An Adult Gold Dragon has Change Shape, with which it can then change into something less "I am a huge dragon" as needed.

If you need the simulacrum, target the polymorph magic effect with dispel magic.

[KorvinStarmast]

What's the 17 or 18 figure from? My dex bonus and a breast plate, and maybe a +1 or +2 on the breast plate. (we are in Tier 3, a chance to find or trade for that is possible, though magic items above uncommon are hard to come by other than by adventuring and coming across them in that manner.

I stealth. Half plate is not on the menu.
(There is a possible choice to get shield with a magical secret; armor class mostly solved, and a good use for level 1 spell slots)

The feat you mention, were it taken a long time ago, would have resulted in a different bard. This bard tends to wield an instrument/focus, and will sometimes draw a blade (have green flame blade as a cantrip, DM approved) if mooks get too close.

If the Bard has a Simulacrum in play), they can cut enemy accuracy further still with their many ways of efficiently applying Disadvantage. Correct, until the simulacrum runs out of spell slots and bardic inspiration instances. For a few fights though, yeah, we have a nice force multiplier handy. We have not yet had a battle with Sim Bard in play; just made it the other day.

@Yakk: yeah, in a perfect world I can at level 17 turn my simulacrum into a gold dragon. (Or Sim Bard can turn me into one and then hide, DD away, concentrating away while I run amok as a Gold Dragon).

Heck Yeah! :smallsmile:

I did mention a few posts back that, in-world, the DM and I are wrestling with a world building piece which includes "where does the soul of that dragon come from?" Mind you, if I do that for just an hour and then revert, having a dragon on side, adult gold or red, for an hour (a few fights, or one big one) is for sure a most excellent force multiplier. :smallbiggrin: Part of why we take those spells.

If I try to make it permanent, there is some risk that the dragons of the world might get kinda pissed at my little bard creating gold dragons without a soul, nor with any ties to family/flight/nest/parents, etc. (See above about the wanted poster with my bard's face on it, wanted dead or alive).

We'll see when we get there.

The other consideration I have is that if we do the permanent thing (full hour concentration) I think that the simulacrum stops being a sim (thus obeying me) and becomes a dragon, who may or may not do what I want it to do. It may just fly off and try to figure out who they heck they are (a variation on "I need to go and find myself" as a meme). Again, in world, if it doesn't have a soul I am not sure what kind of ripple effects that has, and we'll discover that in play as we get to that point in the campaign.

[KorvinStarmast]

I went with contingency.

Thanks, everyone, for the suggestions and points made. Very helpful. :smallsmile:

[ThatDuckGrant]

I'd consider telekinesis. I understand that you could have taken it at 10th so it feels like a waste now, but hey, you can cast it more often since it's lower level... and it's so good for Bards. Much like Bigby's, it can be used for defense or control or damage, and you add Jack of All Trades to the skill checks!

I would like to revisit the option of telekinesis. In my opinion, it might be the most OP combo in the game to get this spell on a lore bard in particular, especially after level 14. As the above poster mentioned, you get to add half proficiency to your checks for it, but the real kicker is combining that with peerless skill and cutting words. You can add a bardic inspiration to your own check if needed, and if you REALLY need to win the check, you can cutting words your opponent’s. I think I did the math at one point, and even if you were casting it against a creature with 30 strength, you have a 85%ish chance of restraining your target and controlling its movements. AND because it’s an ability check, not a saving throw, legendary resistances do nothing to stop you.

There are only some 30-40 monsters that are too big for telekinesis to effect, and some 20+ of them are dragons (probably more now with the new book). So if you have a plan for how to fight dragons, telekinesis immobilizes pretty much any other big bad you find with remarkable efficiency, and gives your three party damage dealers some sweet advantaged attacks.

[diplomancer]

I would like to revisit the option of telekinesis. In my opinion, it might be the most OP combo in the game to get this spell on a lore bard in particular, especially after level 14. As the above poster mentioned, you get to add half proficiency to your checks for it, but the real kicker is combining that with peerless skill and cutting words. You can add a bardic inspiration to your own check if needed, and if you REALLY need to win the check, you can cutting words your opponent’s. I think I did the math at one point, and even if you were casting it against a creature with 30 strength, you have a 85%ish chance of restraining your target and controlling its movements. AND because it’s an ability check, not a saving throw, legendary resistances do nothing to stop you.

There are only some 30-40 monsters that are too big for telekinesis to effect, and some 20+ of them are dragons (probably more now with the new book). So if you have a plan for how to fight dragons, telekinesis immobilizes pretty much any other big bad you find with remarkable efficiency, and gives your three party damage dealers some sweet advantaged attacks.

Heh, my DM let me take the Wild Talent feat from UA with my Lore Bard at level 8. It kept my Cha at 19 instead of 20, but totally worth it now I have Telekinesis. It's almost an "I win" button, even before level 14.

[KorvinStarmast]

Heh, my DM let me take the Wild Talent feat from UA with my Lore Bard at level 8. It kept my Cha at 19 instead of 20, but totally worth it now I have Telekinesis. It's almost an "I win" button, even before level 14. Well, I went with Bigby's back at 10, so I missed that one by not thinking through the ability check and bard choices, and my character has expertise in athletics.

[Gtdead]

I would go for Contigency too. It's an open ended option. I adore telekinesis, but not so much as a purely control spell. One of the best qualities of restrained condition is that the afflicted gets attacked with advantage. Which means that in a party with a lot of ranged summons/minions and ranged attackers, the telekinesis user is the "marker". Just the simple act of providing advantage for all of them can increase their output 30-40% in addition to controlling the target.

In your party you have 2 melee oriented characters that may have trouble getting in range, probably no ranged summons and a sorlock who can provide advantage for himself. So telekinesis would be largely for control, and you still have bigby's. I would trade bigby's for telekinesis in a heartbeat though if I had the chance.

[OracularPoet]

We are also guilty of a lot of horrid pus in our world.
:smallbiggrin:

Best typo ever.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Best typo ever.

Well, the bodies they leave in their wake[1] do tend to rot, and rot makes something like pus....

[1] representative paraphrased quote: We don't really have any enemies. We've killed all the ones that would have become enemies. They're not murder-hobos, but their wake is strewn with corpses, many with broken knee-caps.

[KorvinStarmast]

Best typo ever. Nice catch. Not gonna go back and fix it, since it makes for a source of innocent merriment.

[Theodoxus]

Any chance you could re-address the swapping of magical secret spells? I think only a particularly stringent DM wouldn't let you swap out Bigby's for TK. it's the same level, has similar capabilities, and doesn't compromise your core concept... Maybe as a "I promise this will be the only time in the campaign I swap one non-bard spell for another" type of deal? Some things look great on paper but end up suboptimal in play...

Glad you ended up breaking your AP. Contingency is a great choice. Looks like it will be quite useful with your party composition.

[KorvinStarmast]

Any chance you could re-address the swapping of magical secret spells? I think only a particularly stringent DM wouldn't let you swap out Bigby's for TK. it's the same level, has similar capabilities, and doesn't compromise your core concept... Maybe as a "I promise this will be the only time in the campaign I swap one non-bard spell for another" type of deal? Some things look great on paper but end up suboptimal in play. Given that our sorc/lock has access to telekenisis when he needs it, I think I ought to just chalk this one up to 'learn from my own mistakes' and try to be creative in how and where I use Bigby's hand.
Glad you ended up breaking your AP. Contingency is a great choice. Looks like it will be quite useful with your party composition. I once again thank all of the folks who chimed it. Hopefully, this discussion may help others in the future if they suffer from the same malady. :smallsmile:

[Keravath]

My dex bonus and a breast plate, and maybe a +1 or +2 on the breast plate. (we are in Tier 3, a chance to find or trade for that is possible, though magic items above uncommon are hard to come by other than by adventuring and coming across them in that manner.

I stealth. Half plate is not on the menu.
(There is a possible choice to get shield with a magical secret; armor class mostly solved, and a good use for level 1 spell slots)

The feat you mention, were it taken a long time ago, would have resulted in a different bard. This bard tends to wield an instrument/focus, and will sometimes draw a blade (have green flame blade as a cantrip, DM approved) if mooks get too close.
Correct, until the simulacrum runs out of spell slots and bardic inspiration instances. For a few fights though, yeah, we have a nice force multiplier handy. We have not yet had a battle with Sim Bard in play; just made it the other day.

@Yakk: yeah, in a perfect world I can at level 17 turn my simulacrum into a gold dragon. (Or Sim Bard can turn me into one and then hide, DD away, concentrating away while I run amok as a Gold Dragon).

Heck Yeah! :smallsmile:

I did mention a few posts back that, in-world, the DM and I are wrestling with a world building piece which includes "where does the soul of that dragon come from?" Mind you, if I do that for just an hour and then revert, having a dragon on side, adult gold or red, for an hour (a few fights, or one big one) is for sure a most excellent force multiplier. :smallbiggrin: Part of why we take those spells.

If I try to make it permanent, there is some risk that the dragons of the world might get kinda pissed at my little bard creating gold dragons without a soul, nor with any ties to family/flight/nest/parents, etc. (See above about the wanted poster with my bard's face on it, wanted dead or alive).

We'll see when we get there.

The other consideration I have is that if we do the permanent thing (full hour concentration) I think that the simulacrum stops being a sim (thus obeying me) and becomes a dragon, who may or may not do what I want it to do. It may just fly off and try to figure out who they heck they are (a variation on "I need to go and find myself" as a meme). Again, in world, if it doesn't have a soul I am not sure what kind of ripple effects that has, and we'll discover that in play as we get to that point in the campaign.

I'm not sure that the question of souls really comes up.

A True Polymorphed creature or object in the form of a dragon is NOT a dragon but still the original creature or object whose form has been converted to the shape and abilities of a dragon. As far as I understand it, True Polymorph is still subject to dispel magic changing the creature back into its original form.

It's possible your DM runs the spell differently but as far as I know True Polymorph doesn't create whatever the creature or object is transformed into - it causes the creature or object transformed to have the appearance and abilities of the selected creature. This might still be more than enough to be objectionable to a council of dragons but the process doesn't necessarily require the creation of a dragon's soul as part of the process.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'm not sure that the question of souls really comes up.

A True Polymorphed creature or object in the form of a dragon is NOT a dragon but still the original creature or object whose form has been converted to the shape and abilities of a dragon. As far as I understand it, True Polymorph is still subject to dispel magic changing the creature back into its original form.

It's possible your DM runs the spell differently but as far as I know True Polymorph doesn't create whatever the creature or object is transformed into - it causes the creature or object transformed to have the appearance and abilities of the selected creature. This might still be more than enough to be objectionable to a council of dragons but the process doesn't necessarily require the creation of a dragon's soul as part of the process.

As the DM in question, there's a significant portion of custom worldbuilding here, mainly around souls.

The crux of it being the following--
* Mortal beings have souls (to be specific, they have a triune "soul" consisting of a physical body, immaterial nimbus, and essential spark, but the important thing here is the spark). Souls allow one to produce anima (the raw stuff of existence) and, in general, to create new things.
* Non-mortal living beings (including fey, celestials, infernals, elementals, etc) don't have a spark--instead they have a set of "True Word fragments", effectively a True Name (although in contrast to many depictions, this is not constant), that provides the "self". They can aggregate information and outside things and alter their True Name by adding or changing the fragments, but the palette is fixed.
* Objects don't have a nimbus or a body or a soul of any type--instead, they're associated with (in a many to many relationship) kami, which are effectively nature spirits, essentially just free-floating agglomerations of True Word fragments, constantly shifting and moving.

So True Polymorph (specifically the object -> creature form; the other part is relatively simple) poses an issue--is the resultant "creature" still an object? If so, it can't act or think. So it's not an object.

Is it a non-mortal being (motivated by True Words)? If so, where do those True Words come from? Which words end up agglomerating? Since that's so different from all the other (in this case) dragons, what implications does that have for the creature long-term? Can they learn? Can they grow and create on their own? Can they create anima? Can they worship (and gain power from worship)? But all told, this is the simplest option with the fewest issues to figure out. What you'd end up with is effectively a magical construct with an enslaved "pseudo-soul". Which doesn't fit the desired fiction very well in this particular case--you can't make friends with something that isn't really a living thing with its own mind, and slavery is a HUGE no-no for this party (they've all got serious personal grudges with enslavement, even "soft" enslavement).

On the other hand, if it's an actual mortal dragon, I'd have to answer the question I've been intentionally avoiding--where do sparks come from? Can you create one? Can you, via a spell, call one out of the ineffable? What happens when it's dispelled? Where does the spark go? This is one of the core "mysteries" I so far have refused to answer. As a note, this one is enslavement but worse.

Compounding the issue is that of dragons and hoards--the trigger for a dragon to become a young dragon (let alone a metallic dragon[1]) is having an idea of what your hoard will be. Because my dragons don't just hoard silver and gold (although some do). There are dragons whose hoards are things like "butterflies" or "the adulation of mortals" or "dragonkind itself". And the hoard is the source of a dragon's power, acting as their food source (by tying them in with the ambient anima field) as well as a source of obsession and one of the roots of their personality. Not having a hoard turns a dragon into a ravening destructive power that consumes everything it encounters to try to fill that void. Discovering the hoard is a personal journey of development. And here we've created a dragon without a hoard. That's going to set off lots of red flags in anyone who knows what's going on.

So the quest would be to pull a Pinocchio Gambit and find a soul for this dragon/make him a real boy (assuming the answer to the above was #2). Which involves answering questions I've been trying to dodge now for 6 years.

None of these are impossible difficulties, just...fraught ones.

[Theodoxus]

Your game, your rules, but it seems to me, a 9th level spell would answer those questions as part of the casting. If it's pulling a soul from somewhere, or creating it from whole cloth out of True Word fragments or something else - that actually can still remain a mystery - it's the spell (and the original crafter of said spell) that knows the secret - you as the DM and certainly the caster don't need to know any of it if its best to remain dodgy.

Now, the hoard is harder to deal with, for sure. It's possible, I suppose that True Polymorph also supplies at least the idea for this specific dragon's hoard if not the reality of it (that would probably require a Wish on top, no?) But I don't see why such a distinct part of your dragon culture wouldn't come with the spell itself. I guess it goes back to why dragons have hoards. I mean, where does the proto-concept come from? Since it's not necessarily as grounded as coins and gems but can be ephemeral, might it not be part of the soul itself? So where ever this soul comes from - however it's created or conjured or pulled forward or backwards in time or whatever - it must have within it, the concept of hoard.

Might it be that if such a soul were transferred into a human, that coding for 'hoard' might be ambition or drive or creativity? The soul of a dragon that collects songs might in a human drive one to become a bard. The soul of a dragon that hoards gold might in a human drive one to become a banker, or perhaps Scrooge McDuck...

Again, your game, your rules. I just don't think it needs to actually answer the unknowable cosmic question(s) to have a playable answer that is satisfying all around.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Your game, your rules, but it seems to me, a 9th level spell would answer those questions as part of the casting. If it's pulling a soul from somewhere, or creating it from whole cloth out of True Word fragments or something else - that actually can still remain a mystery - it's the spell (and the original crafter of said spell) that knows the secret - you as the DM and certainly the caster don't need to know any of it if its best to remain dodgy.

Now, the hoard is harder to deal with, for sure. It's possible, I suppose that True Polymorph also supplies at least the idea for this specific dragon's hoard if not the reality of it (that would probably require a Wish on top, no?) But I don't see why such a distinct part of your dragon culture wouldn't come with the spell itself. I guess it goes back to why dragons have hoards. I mean, where does the proto-concept come from? Since it's not necessarily as grounded as coins and gems but can be ephemeral, might it not be part of the soul itself? So where ever this soul comes from - however it's created or conjured or pulled forward or backwards in time or whatever - it must have within it, the concept of hoard.

Might it be that if such a soul were transferred into a human, that coding for 'hoard' might be ambition or drive or creativity? The soul of a dragon that collects songs might in a human drive one to become a bard. The soul of a dragon that hoards gold might in a human drive one to become a banker, or perhaps Scrooge McDuck...

Again, your game, your rules. I just don't think it needs to actually answer the unknowable cosmic question(s) to have a playable answer that is satisfying all around.

To be honest, that kind of answer (well, the magic just does it) is, to me, boring. It drastically overstates what mortal magic can do--sure, 9ths are powerful. But they're not even nearly the strongest stuff out there. And gods can't create souls out of nothing, nor do they know where they come from or where they go. And since all the spells that exist are created by the God of Magic (that's kinda his purpose, to regulate what mortal magic can do so that we don't end up blowing up the world again), if he doesn't know how it works, it can't work via a spell. And I need an answer so I can build on it. If creating a spark is possible with something as simple as a 9th level spell, then lots of other people throughout history must have done it. Which would revolutionize whole sets of historical magitech--heck, if it were possible demons wouldn't have to do what they do (ie consume others' sparks so that the jotnar inside of them doesn't eat their soul and they can extract energy from it). It upends millennia of striving and answers basically all the questions, creating massive plot holes all over the place.

The nature, source, and destiny of souls is one of the Grand Mysteries. Reducing it to "well, it just happens when I twiddle my thumbs every day" is, to me, a nightmare scenario. Mainly because it's just so utterly bland.

[MrStabby]

To be honest, that kind of answer (well, the magic just does it) is, to me, boring. It drastically overstates what mortal magic can do--sure, 9ths are powerful. But they're not even nearly the strongest stuff out there. And gods can't create souls out of nothing, nor do they know where they come from or where they go. And since all the spells that exist are created by the God of Magic (that's kinda his purpose, to regulate what mortal magic can do so that we don't end up blowing up the world again), if he doesn't know how it works, it can't work via a spell. And I need an answer so I can build on it. If creating a spark is possible with something as simple as a 9th level spell, then lots of other people throughout history must have done it. Which would revolutionize whole sets of historical magitech--heck, if it were possible demons wouldn't have to do what they do (ie consume others' sparks so that the jotnar inside of them doesn't eat their soul and they can extract energy from it). It upends millennia of striving and answers basically all the questions, creating massive plot holes all over the place.

The nature, source, and destiny of souls is one of the Grand Mysteries. Reducing it to "well, it just happens when I twiddle my thumbs every day" is, to me, a nightmare scenario. Mainly because it's just so utterly bland.

I think that souls being created is fine, though I wouldn't do it with magic. I mean ordinary reproduction is a great starting point but I think the idea of soul energy coming from other very human (or dwarf, elf etc.) places is interesting. Great acts of valor or sacrifice produce some. Great works of art or music. The idea that there is a kind of magic accessible to all through their actions that Even the Gods Cannot Deny appeals to me and suffuses my homebrew world.

The idea that demons chase not only souls but seek to corrupt acts of valor or horde art (and to act as mysterious patrons of arts) is something I like.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm not sure that the question of souls really comes up.

A True Polymorphed creature or object in the form of a dragon is NOT a dragon but still the original creature or object whose form has been converted to the shape and abilities of a dragon. As far as I understand it, True Polymorph is still subject to dispel magic changing the creature back into its original form. Which angers me since I have a first printing PHB, and originally TP after an hour created, permanently, that new creature. This "until dispelled' screwed that up mightily. :smallfurious: {rant rant rant}. Stupid, useless, errata. :smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:

It's possible your DM runs the spell differently but as far as I know True Polymorph doesn't create whatever the creature or object is transformed into - it causes the creature or object transformed to have the appearance and abilities of the selected creature.
Nope, it turns it into the creature, and {until dispelled} it is that creature. It is not an illusion, it is a transformation.
You transform the creature into a different creature, the creature into an object, or the object into a creature (the object must be neither worn nor carried by another creature). The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the transformation {is permanent, originally }lasts until it is dispelled. Not just taking on the appearance, it becomes the creature.

Object into Creature. You can turn an object into any kind of creature, as long as the creature’s size is no larger than the object’s size and the creature’s challenge rating is 9 or lower. The creature is friendly to you and your companions. It acts on each of your turns. You decide what action it takes and how it moves. The GM has the creature’s statistics and resolves all of its actions and movement. If the spell becomes permanent, you no longer control the creature. It might remain friendly to you, depending on how you have treated it. This is a creature. Not the appearance of one. The creature has a creature's stat block.

{creature to creature} The target’s game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form. {snip} The target assumes the hit points of its new form, and when it reverts to its normal form, the creature returns to the number of hit points it had before it transformed. ... The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can’t speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech, unless its new form is capable of such actions. Dragons can cast spells if that variant from the MM is included, but can't if it is not. In Phoenix's world, dragons can be and most often are spell casters also.

I think that souls being created is fine, though I wouldn't do it with magic. I mean ordinary reproduction is a great starting point but I think the idea of soul energy coming from other very human (or dwarf, elf etc.) places is interesting. Great acts of valor or sacrifice produce some. Great works of art or music. The idea that there is a kind of magic accessible to all through their actions that Even the Gods Cannot Deny appeals to me and suffuses my homebrew world. Likewise. We have a few levels before this matters. I am looking forward to working with PhoenixPhyre on how to resolve this issue - I think that between the two of us, a quest of some kind, at great hazard, might be the answer to the question, or, I end up loosing a soul less dragon on the world that (as he points out) will have a hunger to build a hoard and will proceed to do so as soon as it can unless I, the bard who created him, fill that need somehow. (music, family, items, a place to call home, something ...)

The idea that demons chase not only souls but seek to corrupt acts of valor or horde art (and to act as mysterious patrons of arts) is something I like. Yeah, it's great, except that demons are already corrupting my songs (had to work a deal with an infernal to get that down to a dull roar) and one of our early quests was to stop the continuing corruption of a very old song, a song tied to creation, by an evil being called The Twisted One. We had to face demonic corruptors of a number of things during that sub arc - it was really fun and dangerous and neat, all wrapped into one.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Yeah, it's great, except that demons are already corrupting my songs (had to work a deal with an infernal to get that down to a dull roar) and one of our early quests was to stop the continuing corruption of a very old song, a song tied to creation, by an evil being called The Twisted One. We had to face demonic corruptors of a number of things during that sub arc - it was really fun and dangerous and neat, all wrapped into one.

Hey, the Twisted is an artiste. His preferred medium just happens to be flesh and blood. While it's still alive. And the Maestro was the foremost poet and songwriter of his day. If you ask him, anyway. If you ask anyone else...there's a reason the Imperial Society of Poets threatened to sue him for damages caused by reading his submissions. Worse than Vogon poetry, that one.

And note--the "demons" corrupting your songs were actually devils, and they were just out to make a quick buck. No harm no foul, right? Right?

[KorvinStarmast]

Hey, the Twisted is an artiste. His preferred medium just happens to be flesh and blood. While it's still alive. And the Maestro was the foremost poet and songwriter of his day. If you ask him, anyway. If you ask anyone else...there's a reason the Imperial Society of Poets threatened to sue him for damages caused by reading his submissions. Worse than Vogon poetry, that one. Cackle

And note--the "demons" corrupting your songs were actually devils, and they were just out to make a quick buck. No harm no foul, right? Right? Right, demons, but "no harm no foul" broaches the matter of 'lost income due to failure to pay royalties' and thus "How's that check from Bel coming along, anyway?" :smallwink: We'll check up on that when we return to a major city after this current adventure down south.
But
I suspect that SimDil could check on it, since she isn't gaining levels or spells or recoverable over time assets in so doing ... she'll probably ask Tson to do a sending in a day or two to check on the status of that deposit ... :smallbiggrin:

Quick True Polymorph Question: Planetars are CR 16.
You mention that a lot of the outsiders don't have that spark, so it looks like I can TP a lvl 17 creature like a SimDil into a Planetar (If I created her at level 17).
Right?
That ought to get around the soul problem. Is there another problem that this raises?
Hopefully not, since I had hoped to, at one point, TP Zeke into a Planetar for a while in an effort to boost his political image, but that's just an idea that hasn't been fully fleshed out yet.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Cackle
Right, demons, but "no harm no foul" broaches the matter of 'lost income due to failure to pay royalties' and thus "How's that check from Bel coming along, anyway?" :smallwink: We'll check up on that when we return to a major city after this current adventure down south.
But
I suspect that SimDil could check on it, since she isn't gaining levels or spells or recoverable over time assets in so doing ... she'll probably ask Tson to do a sending in a day or two to check on the status of that deposit ... :smallbiggrin:


The things I've been procrastinating....I'll have an answer tomorrow, probably.



Quick True Polymorph Question: Planetars are CR 16.
You mention that a lot of the outsiders don't have that spark, so it looks like I can TP a lvl 17 creature like a SimDil into a Planetar (If I created her at level 17).
Right?
That ought to get around the soul problem. Is there another problem that this raises?
Hopefully not, since I had hoped to, at one point, TP Zeke into a Planetar for a while in an effort to boost his political image, but that's just an idea that hasn't been fully fleshed out yet.

Outsiders have True Words, not a spark; True Words can be mimicked/generated. In fact, my current working canon is that TP (object -> creature) always creates a being with True Words as a core. I mean, you might seriously irritate the Angelic Host, if they bother to hear about it. They're pretty disconnected (except Zeke's grandpa) from the Mortal plane. Although if you TP Zeke, he'd keep his spark (since that trumps the spell) and the Host may decide that ancestry matters (hypocrites) and state a claim on him based on the duck principle. At least if he claims to have the support of the Host.

One confounding factor (in-universe) is that the form of devils and angels really is culturally determined--when devils are on divine business[1], they appear in angelic forms. When they're summoned by mortals, they appear in traditional devil forms. Because that's entirely determined by the summoner. Celestial vs infernal (devil) is...a bit of a squishy detail in the setting.

[1] for those of you following along at home, I've completely rewritten the cosmology and roles of the outsider races. For one thing, there's no such thing as cosmological alignment. The difference between an angel and a devil is power source (sworn duty to the Eternal War vs contracts with various other agents, including gods and mortals), not essence.

[KorvinStarmast]

[1] for those of you following along at home, I've completely rewritten the cosmology and roles of the outsider races. For one thing, there's no such thing as cosmological alignment. The difference between an angel and a devil is power source (sworn duty to the Eternal War vs contracts with various other agents, including gods and mortals), not essence.
OMG, at level 17 True Polymorph SimDil into an androsphinx(CR 17) _ creature to creature retains personality_ and then assign her to protect Heroes' Rest. :smallbiggrin: I know a paladin who might just like my idea there. :smallbiggrin:

[PhoenixPhyre]

OMG, at level 17 True Polymorph SimDil into an androsphinx(CR 17) _ creature to creature retains personality_ and then assign her to protect Heroes' Rest. :smallbiggrin: I know a paladin who might just like my idea there. :smallbiggrin:

How would she feel about the sex change involved (androsphinx's being male and all)? :smallbiggrin:

[KorvinStarmast]

How would she feel about the sex change involved (androsphinx's being male and all)? :smallbiggrin: SimDil? Not sure, probably a good question to ask SimDil about before doing that. Alternately, make a SimTsun, and then do it. Might be a better idea. :smallcool: