Pure Conquest Paladin, or dip Undead Warlock?

[jaappleton]

I'm currently looking to build a backup PC. Always keep one on deck in case of death.

And I'm stuck between pure Conquest Paladin, or to dip into Undead Warlock.

Currently the group is 9th level, which makes it tough. Get those third level spell slots as a Paladin, or do maybe a 7 / 2 split and nab two short rest spell slots and invocations?

[MrStabby]

Well I guess depends on level and party tolerance for cheesy multiclass...

But yeah, if that's good for your table then absolutely multiclass. It is a very solid set of abilities.

[Brymja9711]

I always enjoy playing multiclassed characters, but I also find that sometimes other characters who just continue on with their single class with occasionally be more powerful in certain situations. Obviously, that’s not always the case. I think multi-classing a Paladin into a warlock gives a ton of fun options for a unique build. I would definitely do that. Although, the 3rd level Paladin spells are pretty strong, and the conquest Paladin is always pretty powerful. Depends on what you’re feeling and the what kind of characters you have in the party at the moment

[da newt]

Undead Warlock would add a very legit ranged attack to your arsenal - agonizing, repelling, frightening blast is no joke.

Might as well go all in with the theme and make them a Dhampir while you are at it ...

Of course, be sure to build in something for fear immune folks too.

[jaappleton]

Undead Warlock would add a very legit ranged attack to your arsenal - agonizing, repelling, frightening blast is no joke.

Might as well go all in with the theme and make them a Dhampir while you are at it ...

Of course, be sure to build in something for fear immune folks too.

The character would have to be Hexblood or Half Orc.

Our previous campaign I played a male Half Orc Barb, and another played a female Orc War Cleric.

This was in Barovia, and this PC would be their son, who is searching to find his mother. As such, I think both Half Orc and Hexblood are applicable. Dark powers have a habit of ruining everything in that land, don’t they?

The Undead Patron is…. well, you all know, I’m sure.

As far as immunity to Fear: That’s what Smite is for, isn’t it? Be afraid, or die quickly.

[solidork]

3rd level spells are an especially big deal for Conquest Paladins because you get Fear, which doesn't allow them to save again until they're out of sight of you. Since you make targets who are afraid unable to move... it's pretty good.

What you get from Warlock is also pretty good, though, and it might be awkward to explain how to pick up those Warlock levels later.

[jaappleton]

3rd level spells are an especially big deal for Conquest Paladins because you get Fear, which doesn't allow them to save again until they're out of sight of you. Since you make targets who are afraid unable to move... it's pretty good.

What you get from Warlock is also pretty good, though, and it might be awkward to explain how to pick up those Warlock levels later.

I actually never quite realized this part. Iiiinteresting.

I don't think I'd go more than two Warlock levels, and even then thats at most. Could just go one level. Depends how useful I find the Invocations.

Question is, what do I start with?

[Witty Username]

Well I guess depends on level and party tolerance for cheesy multiclass...

But yeah, if that's good for your table then absolutely multiclass. It is a very solid set of abilities.

Most will probably be happily surprised that warlock and paladin are being multiclassed with no mention of hexblade.

[jaappleton]

Most will probably be happily surprised that warlock and paladin are being multiclassed with no mention of hexblade.

I want to laugh, but... Yeah. Yeah its pretty darn true, actually.

[Feanor5]

I actually never quite realized this part. Iiiinteresting.

I don't think I'd go more than two Warlock levels, and even then thats at most. Could just go one level. Depends how useful I find the Invocations.

Question is, what do I start with?

Fear is the cornerstone ability of the Conquest Paladin. Assuming you play all levels and don’t just start at level 12, I suggest you want to go to at least level 9 with Conquest.

If you start at a much higher level you can take 5 levels of Sorcerer and get Fear that way, whereby saving two levels of Paladin.

I think Conquest ist extremely synergistic in itself and worth it to go straight Conquest, except for maybe 1/2 levels of Hexblade. This means you still get the expanded Aura at level 18. In case you don’t want to spam Eldritch Blast, one level of Hexblade could also be enough.

[Blood of Gaea]

I think it has solid potential, but I think it would have the greatest impact after 7th level for your Fear Aura, or 9th level to not delay your Fear spell.

[Unoriginal]

An important factor in this decision is: how much do you want to play a Nazgul?

[Feanor5]

An important factor in this decision is: how much do you want to play a Nazgul?

I second that. This is actually the real question here. Level 13 for Conquest is kind of unavoidable.

[Guy Lombard-O]

I think Conquest is extremely synergistic in itself and worth it to go straight Conquest, except for maybe 1/2 levels of Hexblade. This means you still get the expanded Aura at level 18. In case you don’t want to spam Eldritch Blast, one level of Hexblade could also be enough.

While I'm aware that the OP probably isn't even thinking about 20 levels right now (especially since it's a back up character), I was recently playing a Conquest and was toying with the idea of taking 1 or 2 levels of Warlock (subclass undetermined) to get a good ranged weapon.

After looking at the 20 level build, I realized that I could use the 19th level of paladin's ASI to take the Eldritch Adept feat and get an Agonizing OR Repelling invocation to tack onto my blasts, and thus avoid that 2nd level of Warlock. Then the tradeoff becomes an extra SR slot and the other invocation vs. 5 HP of LoH and the second 5th level slot. Still not sure which way is better, but I'd probably choose the 19/1 split.

[Feanor5]

I realized that I could use the 19th level of paladin's ASI to take the Eldritch Adept feat and get an Agonizing OR Repelling invocation to tack onto my blasts, and thus avoid that 2nd level of Warlock. Then the tradeoff becomes an extra SR slot and the other invocation vs. 5 HP of LoH and the second 5th level slot. Still not sure which way is better, but I'd probably choose the 19/1 split.

It seems to me that the main reason for taking lvl 19 with Conquest instead of HexBlade, is to get the last ASI. If you are going to burn the last ASI to get one Eldritch invocation, you can just as well get a second HexBlade level, this will give you two Eldritch Invocations (e.g. Agonizing AND Repelling).

[Mutbore]

I'm actually about to play a conquest paladin/undead warlock in an upcoming campaign. I'm going for a tank/control-oriented build that will go Paladin 1, Warlock 1, Paladin 7, Warlock 5, then TBD.

5 levels of warlock is appealing because it can grant access to eldritch smite which carries the no-save prone effect. Coupled with the Paladin 7 aura and the Form of Dread fear effect, you've potentially trapped the target in the prone position (shout out to the Wall of Fear thread) where they'll take be forced to take a bit of psychic damage. Warlock 3 grants access to 2nd level spells which you can use to snag Cloud of Daggers for more no-roll damage to the trapped target. Admittedly there are a number of other decent level 2 spells like Mirror Image and Misty Step that could probably provide better value and the Cloud of Daggers damage type isn't great, but it seems like a fun use of a spell I don't see commonly in my games. Create Bonfire is another way of achieving a similar effect but the target gets a save IIRC. If you want to be a meme-lord, Cloak of Flies at Warlock 5 grants more no-roll damage (though again, sucky damage type and the invocation is probably better spent elsewhere).

An additional benefit of Warlock 5 is you triple the number of invocations known, for which you have a number of decent options beyond the standard Agonizing Blast and grants 3rd level Warlock spells. Lance of Lethargy and Grasp of Hadar can limit enemy movement out of your Conquest aura (and possibly the stacking no-roll damage effects) while simultaneously proccing the Form of Dread fear effect. Sentinel would also work well for this purpose. Repelling blast grants even more control and Cloak of Flies synergizes with Conquest aura. Notable 3rd level Warlock spells for this build would probably include Fear (which is a OoC oath spell available at Paladin 9, so maybe not the best choice if you can live without if for a few levels), Spirit Shroud (more damage, more movement speed reduction), and Summon Shadowspawn or Summon Undead (more fear effects, versatility, action economy).

Beyond character level 12, I'm not sure how I want to split it but I don't think there are a lot of bad options.

[Feanor5]

I'm actually about to play a conquest paladin/undead warlock in an upcoming campaign. I'm going for a tank/control-oriented build that will go Paladin 1, Warlock 1, Paladin 7, Warlock 5, then TBD.

5 levels of warlock is appealing because it can grant access to eldritch smite which carries the no-save prone effect. Coupled with the Paladin 7 aura and the Form of Dread fear effect, you've potentially trapped the target in the prone position (shout out to the Wall of Fear thread) where they'll take be forced to take a bit of psychic damage.

Form of Dread seems a bit weak, since you actually have to attack a single creature and it still lasts only for a round. In comparison Dragon Fear has a radius of 30 feet and lasts for one minute, not to mention the actual Fear spell.

I believe that there are better ways to get more fear options than the Undead Warlock.

[Mutbore]

Form of Dread seems a bit weak, since you actually have to attack a single creature and it still lasts only for a round. In comparison Dragon Fear has a radius of 30 feet and lasts for one minute, not to mention the actual Fear spell.

Dragon Fear is nice if you want to play a dragonborn and invest in a feat, sure. I'm playing in a Theros campaign so I chose to play a leonin instead (smaller fear AOE and scales with CON but doesn't cost a feat and a bonus action rather than an action). Fear is a good spell and is situationally extremely useful but if you're only facing one opponent, you have allies in the cone, or you're in a position where you risk losing concentration, it may not be worth a 3rd level spell slot. I wouldn't call Form of Dread weak; for the cost of a bonus action, you can potentially force a frightened saving throw every turn for an entire combat. It's also important to remember the fear effect from FoD is a rider on top of an attack, so unlike Dragon Fear or the Fear spell, you can damage and CC a target simultaneously. On top of that, there's no risk of losing concentration and you get a little temp HP to boot. When you consider how little you're investing in terms of action economy and resource expenditure, I think FoD seems pretty good. Busted? No. But pretty good.

If you want more damage on your OoC Paladin, go hexblade. If you want more control, go Undead IMO.

[Unoriginal]

Leonins are good for Conquest Paladin due to their terrifying roar.

Also because lion knights.

[Guy Lombard-O]

It seems to me that the main reason for taking lvl 19 with Conquest instead of HexBlade, is to get the last ASI. If you are going to burn the last ASI to get one Eldritch invocation, you can just as well get a second HexBlade level, this will give you two Eldritch Invocations (e.g. Agonizing AND Repelling).

Well, it's a tradeoff for certain. But the 5th level paladin spells and that 2nd spell slot are no joke, so I'm not sure either option is decidedly superior. But obviously, you do you.

[Feanor5]

Well, it's a tradeoff for certain. But the 5th level paladin spells and that 2nd spell slot are no joke, so I'm not sure either option is decidedly superior. But obviously, you do you.

Well as far as I am personally concerned, I think Conquest is so compelling that I find it hard to justify any multiclass.

I agree about the 5th level slots, but at level 17 you get at least one, YMMV of course.

I have yet to play the Conquest capstone, and I have to say, even if it clearly is both awesome and fully appropriate, it does come far too late and indeed some of its best aspects are overlapping with the HexBlade level 1 features!

Does anyone here have experience playing Conquest all the way to level 20?

[Feanor5]

If you want more damage on your OoC Paladin, go hexblade. If you want more control, go Undead IMO.

What are other good Fear effects synergizing with Conquest other than Conquering Presence, Dragon Fear and Fear?


Leonin Daunting Roar (AoE, one turn)
Aasimar Necrotic Shroud (AoE, one turn)
ArchFey Lock Fey Presence (AoE, one turn)
Undead Lock Form of Dread (AoE, one turn)
Battlemaster Menacing Attack (AoE, one turn)


I have been thinking how to further improve on the Conquest Fear capabilities and Dragon Fear is a very good way without Multiclass impact, but if one would go all out what would be the best build for max Fear.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Cause fear from the Warlock levels could also be nabbed. Less efficient than fear, but it's got that targeted creature aspect rather than the indiscriminate AoE of fear.

[BerzerkerUnit]

The only real question: Is your Conquest Paladin out to conquer the world or just be a lackey? Have they ever been willing to kowtow to another’s power, or were they always set apart and above?

If they are a king, straight conquest, if merely a general, then dip as desired.

[Unoriginal]

The only real question: Is your Conquest Paladin out to conquer the world or just be a lackey? Have they ever been willing to kowtow to another’s power, or were they always set apart and above?

If they are a king, straight conquest, if merely a general, then dip as desired.

You don't need to kowtow to be a Warlock. You could have earned your pact by wrestling with a demigod or by syphoning the power of a trapped entity.

[Feanor5]

The only real question: Is your Conquest Paladin out to conquer the world or just be a lackey? Have they ever been willing to kowtow to another’s power, or were they always set apart and above?

If they are a king, straight conquest, if merely a general, then dip as desired.

I am not sure that a Conquest Paladin is required to be a king or other kind of conquering ruler. I generally play Conquest similar to Judge Dredd i.e. judge, jury and executioner, representing the full might of a system out to crush, demoralize and potentially eradicate whatever represents a hurdle to its authority or objectives. In the forgotten realms, the Lords Alliance is a good candidate.

A Conquest Paladin could of course be a conquering ruler, but this would require a high level campaign and last tier characters.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Cause fear from the Warlock levels could also be nabbed. Less efficient than fear, but it's got that targeted creature aspect rather than the indiscriminate AoE of fear.

While I agree that it has some slight value due to the 60' range, Cause Fear is completely inferior in every other way to Wrathful Smite when it comes to single target fear spells. Seems a little too suboptimal to justify a fairly duplicative pick.

[Kuulvheysoon]

While I agree that it has some slight value due to the 60' range, Cause Fear is completely inferior in every other way to Wrathful Smite when it comes to single target fear spells. Seems a little too suboptimal to justify a fairly duplicative pick.

Three major things distinguish the two.

Cause fear is on the Warlock spell list, while wrathful smite is a paladin spell. You choose spells based on class, and they're not combined like spell slots. A corner case, sure, but it's a valid point.
Range is certainly a factor (as you mentioned). You need to be in melee range for wrathful smite, which is likely why it is a "better" spell.
You can upcast cause fear, while wrathful smite can only ever hit a single target.

Besides, I'm just adding to Feanor5's list, which also included the mutually exclusive Leonin/Aasimar/Dragonborn races and Fey/Undead patron subclasses. Covering all of their bases, including (potentially) inferior options.

On another note, I'm not sure that I'd call wrathful smite completely superior to cause fear, due to the nature of smite spells. It can fizzle without the target ever having to make a saving throw, for example, and the spell slot is completely wasted. It's generally a better bet, sure, but I wouldn't call it completely superior in every way other than range.

[Mutbore]

Upcast Cause Fear would be a much more likeable option if all the targets didn't need to be within 30 feet of each other.

[Bardon]

Three major things distinguish the two.

Cause fear is on the Warlock spell list, while wrathful smite is a paladin spell. You choose spells based on class, and they're not combined like spell slots. A corner case, sure, but it's a valid point.
Range is certainly a factor (as you mentioned). You need to be in melee range for wrathful smite, which is likely why it is a "better" spell.
You can upcast cause fear, while wrathful smite can only ever hit a single target.

Besides, I'm just adding to Feanor5's list, which also included the mutually exclusive Leonin/Aasimar/Dragonborn races and Fey/Undead patron subclasses. Covering all of their bases, including (potentially) inferior options.

On another note, I'm not sure that I'd call wrathful smite completely superior to cause fear, due to the nature of smite spells. It can fizzle without the target ever having to make a saving throw, for example, and the spell slot is completely wasted. It's generally a better bet, sure, but I wouldn't call it completely superior in every way other than range.

Wrathful Smite also has two big advantages over Cause Fear if they fail the initial WIS Saving Throw (common to both).

1. Wrathful Smite makes them take an action to get a chance to break out while with Cause Fear they get a saving throw automatically at the end of their turn. Wrathful Smite therefore has a much greater impact on their action economy.

2. If they choose to use their action to attempt to break Wrathful Smite it makes them do a Wisdom Ability Check not a Saving Throw - so no bonuses to the roll, it doesn't matter if they have a friendly Paladin nearby or Proficiency in the saving throw and because they're Frightened they have disadvantage on the roll. That doesn't apply to Cause Fear because Frightened adversely affects Ability Checks not Saving Throws, so this can really extend the effect of Wrathful Smite.


So Wrathful Smite actually has some pretty big advantages over Cause Fear when you dig below the surface.

Edit to fix Speeling. :)

[DarknessEternal]

I second that. This is actually the real question here. Level 13 for Conquest is kind of unavoidable.

Why do you think 13 level of Conquest Paladin is at all necessary exactly?

[Guy Lombard-O]

Wrathful Smite also has two big advantages over Cause Fear if they fail the initial WIS Saving Throw (common to both).

1. Wrathful Smite makes them take an action to get a chance to break out while with Cause Fear they get a saving throw automatically at the end of their turn. Wrathful Smite therefore has a much greater impact on their action economy.

2. If they choose to use their action to attempt to break Wrathful Smite it makes them do a Wisdom Ability Check not a Saving Throw - so no bonuses to the roll, it doesn't matter if they have a friendly Paladin nearby or Proficiency in the saving throw and because they're Frightened they have disadvantage on the roll. That doesn't apply to Cause Fear because Frightened adversely affects Ability Checks not Saving Throws, so this can really extend the effect of Wrathful Smite.


So Wrathful Smite actually has some pretty big advantages over Cause Fear when you dig below the surface.

Edit to fix Speeling. :)

3. It's also a bonus action to cast, so the action economy favors it even more. Especially once you hit 5th level and have Extra Attack.

[Feanor5]

What are other good Fear effects synergizing with Conquest other than Conquering Presence, Dragon Fear and Fear?


Here is an updated list.

Racial abilities

Dragon Fear (AoE, one minute)
Leonin Daunting Roar (AoE, one turn)
Aasimar Necrotic Shroud (AoE, one turn)

Warlock abilities

ArchFey Lock, Fey Presence (AoE, one turn)
Undead Lock, Form of Dread (one creature, one turn)

Martial Classes

Fighter Battlemaster, Menacing Attack (one creature, one turn)
Conquest Paladin, Conquering Presence (AoE, one minute)

Spells

1st level Cause fear, (one creature/level, one minute)
1st level Wrathful Smite,(one creature, one minute)
2nd level Phantasmal Force, (one creature, one minute) (frightened not specifically mentioned)
3rd level Fear, (AoE, one minute)
4th level Phantasmal Killer, (one creature, one minute)
6th level Eyebite, (one creature, one minute)
7th level Symbol, (AoE, one minute)
8th level Antipathy/Sympathy, ((AoE, 10 days!))
8th level Illusory Dragon, (AoE, one minute)
9th level Weird, (AoE, one minute)


It seems to me that the strongest effects (AoE with long duration) here are Dragon Fear as a racial feat, Conquering Presence as a subclass ability and Fear as a spell. I believe Wrathful Smite deserves an honorable mention due to the WIS check used to resist it.

Illusion spells such as Phantasmal Force are available to the Genie Lock (and partly to Fey, GOO, Undead) as well as Eyebite. Symbol and Antipathy/Sympathy are available to Bards, but are such high level that are not reachable for Paladins even when multiclassing.

A Conquest Paladin already has access to the strongest of the above (depending on race of course). The only things that could be gained by multiclassing would be the two Warlock abilities and lower level spells, or the Battlemaster maneuver. YMMV with the illusion spells, but if Phantasmal Force works at your table, this can be an almost automatic kill-switch for even the most powerful creatures.

I have to say that a Conqueror with access to Antipathy/Sympathy would be a game breaking thing. I guess this is the reason why Aura of Conquest comes at level 7.

Please let me know if I missed something here!

[Feanor5]

Why do you think 13 level of Conquest Paladin is at all necessary exactly?

Because at level 13 you get access to 4th level spells, and not to put too fine a point on it, Find Greater Steed is a 4th level spell.

The spell gives you on-demand access to: a griffon, a pegasus, a peryton, a dire wolf, a rhinoceros, or a saber-toothed tiger.

These are mounts with amazing abilities, many have flight, they do not need to be controlled in battle, meaning they can attack (with multi-attack) in parallel to you, and the best part is that all your "self" range spells such as smites, Armor of Agathys, apply to them as well.

Hence the reference to the Nazgul, by Unoriginal.

As if that were not enough, please see Mounted Combatant, for permanent advantage shenanigans.

You can of course go Bard after level 7, which could give you up to 13 levels Bard and level 7 spells in total, including access to the Paladin specific spells such as Find Greater Steed. However, in this case you get your Pegasus at level 17 (Bard Magical Secrets), also you would get Fear at level 12.

[Xoronis]

Undead Lock, Form of Dread (AoE, one turn)

This is actually single target, once per turn for a minute, not AoE, one turn.

[Feanor5]

This is actually single target, once per turn for a minute, not AoE, one turn.

THX, fixed it!

[arnin77]

I’d say you don’t need to multiclass… I play a conquest Paladin at level 11 currently.

As far as Undead Warlock goes, it seems like the main draw is getting another fear option, which is nice; but I wouldn’t say necessary. The conquest Paladin has its channel divinity, wrathful smite and the fear spell, but once you get up in higher levels there are more creatures immune to it. I don’t use my channel divinity much anymore (but guided strike is nice for a forced smite)

Another ability to look at with undead warlock is you gaining frightened immunity during the minute - which the Paladin gets at level 10 all the time. And maxed charisma at level 6 adds to your save for lower levels.

The thing I like about undead warlock, upon first look; is the temp HPs. I love having lots of HPs as a front liner. You can gain this as a Paladin though, with the aid spell or with the inspiring leader feat and you have your lay on hands ability too. You’d also have a very high AC and wouldn’t get hit as much if you went with sword and board.

You can also take the blessed warrior option, if it’s allowed; to gain a Ranged cantrip (sacred flame or toll the dead) if you’re thinking about eldritch blast…

So I would say you don’t need to multiclass, but if you want to then that’s another story. 5e seems to be built to accommodate the flavour as much as the mechanics…. So in my humble opinion, neither choice is “wrong”.

[Andrwrwn]

I'm currently a level 6 Conquest paladin and planning to take the Undead warlock dip for two levels at 10/11. The way I look at it, you need a buff to concentration saves to be an effective lockdown tank and taking Eldritch Mind as one of your invocations essentially buys back the ASI that you would otherwise have had to spend on Resilient Con or Warcaster.