Double Cantrip Over Powered?

[sayaijin]

I have a player who wants to play a sorcerer version of a Bladesinger and they want to quicken booming blade / GFB as their go-to combat trick. Obviously that is a suboptimal use of sorcerery points, so I was wondering about allowing the following feature either as a freebie or as a feat:

"If you use the Quickened Metamagic to cast a cantrip from the Sorcerer spell list as both an action and a bonus action, you can ignore the sorcery point cost."

The fact that they both have to come from the sorcerer list prevents Eldritch Blast cheese.

Is this too overpowered just giving it for free? Would it still be overpowered if I put it as a feat option?

EDIT: I realize there's the illusionist bracers which do exactly this. Is it overpowered to give this out around level 5/6? When Bladesingers get extra attack?

[jaappleton]

I have a player who wants to play a sorcerer version of a Bladesinger and they want to quicken booming blade / GFB as their go-to combat trick. Obviously that is a suboptimal use of sorcerery points, so I was wondering about allowing the following feature either as a freebie or as a feat:

"If you use the Quickened Metamagic to cast a cantrip from the Sorcerer spell list as both an action and a bonus action, you can ignore the sorcery point cost."

The fact that they both have to come from the sorcerer list prevents Eldritch Blast cheese.

Is this too overpowered just giving it for free? Would it still be overpowered if I put it as a feat option?

It’s still OP.

Make them spend the sorcery points. There’s a magic item called Illusionists Bracers, if you cast a cantrip as an action, you can cast it again as a bonus action.

That’s Very Rare and every DM I’ve ever met would punch me in the face if I actually tried using it with a SCAG cantrip. And they’d kick me if I tried it with Eldritch Blast.

[PhantomSoul]

It’s still OP.

Make them spend the sorcery points. There’s a magic item called Illusionists Bracers, if you cast a cantrip as an action, you can cast it again as a bonus action.

That’s Very Rare and every DM I’ve ever met would punch me in the face if I actually tried using it with a SCAG cantrip. And they’d kick me if I tried it with Eldritch Blast.

Entirely agreed. If you want it to be cheaper, then 1 SP for this specific usage...

...which is Twinned Spell anyway if you weren't going to use your Bonus Action and weren't going to Twin the Action Spell.

[sayaijin]

Entirely agreed. If you want it to be cheaper, then 1 SP for this specific usage...

...which is Twinned Spell anyway if you weren't going to use your Bonus Action and weren't going to Twin the Action Spell.

Thanks to the Tasha's update, technically both BB and GFB have a range of self and can't be twinned.

[MoiMagnus]

I'd say it's too strong because of the scaling of GFB / booming blade as you reach higher levels.

If you look at martial character like the fighter, when they get an attack for their BA (dual wielding, crossbow expert, etc), it's only a single additional attack they get, not a full attack action with all the extra attacks.

I'd rather say "You can Quicken a cantrip for 0 sorcery points instead of its usual cost, but you use the level 1 version of the cantrip (so excluding the scaling with level)".

That's still reasonably strong to give for free. I'd probably put it as an half-feat.

Feat: Dual casting.
+1 to Dexterity
When you cast a spell with your action, you can use your BA to cast a cantrip you know. This cantrip is cast as if you were level 1 (in other words, do not apply the "This spell's damage increases when you reach certain levels." paragraph).

[sayaijin]

Alternatively, would it be better if I just literally copy-pasted the level 6 Bladesinger extra attack and replace their usual subclass level 6 feature with that?

[Hairfish]

Yes, it would be overpowered to let them do double cantrips all day, everyday, even if they pay a feat tax for it.

It's not an "inefficient" use of SP at all. They're doing GWM fighter-level melee damage as a full caster. There's also nothing stopping them from dipping a level of a class with martial proficiencies and taking GWM. Or they could combine BB & GFB with Shadow Blade (which appears to be RAI).

[Thunderous Mojo]

EDIT: I realize there's the illusionist bracers which do exactly this. Is it overpowered to give this out around level 5/6? When Bladesingers get extra attack?

I don't think giving Illusionist's Bracers is unmanageable at that point.

A 6th level Bladesinger has to compare a 31 points of single Target damage round from a Melee Attack and two Booming Blade spells, against options like Hypnotic Pattern or Fireball.

If the Bladesinger is thinking about spreading that melee attack and BB/GFB around against multiple foes then Hypnotic Pattern or Fireball are likely to outperform the melee attack + 2 Cantrip cast.

A melee attack plus two Minor Illusion/Mold Earth/Toll the Dead is going to leave a mark.🃏. Like the band in Spinal Tap..make sure your game's amp goes to 11.



That’s Very Rare and every DM I’ve ever met would punch me in the face if I actually tried using it with a SCAG cantrip. And they’d kick me if I tried it with Eldritch Blast.

This made me chuckle🍻.
Illusionist's Bracers is certainly a misnomer for 5e D&D.
Fine for MtG.

[sayaijin]

Yes, it would be overpowered to let them do double cantrips all day, everyday, even if they pay a feat tax for it.

It's not an "inefficient" use of SP at all. They're doing GWM fighter-level melee damage as a full caster. There's also nothing stopping them from dipping a level of a class with martial proficiencies and taking GWM. Or they could combine BB & GFB with Shadow Blade (which appears to be RAI).

Perhaps it's not the sorcery points aspect that's inefficient. I meant to say that it's the action that's inefficient. The same player could cast fireball and then quicken a cantrip instead of doing a cantrip for both.

[PhantomSoul]

Thanks to the Tasha's update, technically both BB and GFB have a range of self and can't be twinned.

For those Spells, I can't say I'm really complaining given their existing power levels and scaling -- but either way, your formulation didn't restrict the freeBAing to those spells. (And I did suggest reducing Quicken to one SP if you wanted to have something more reasonable! You even get the "only a Cantrip with your Action" for free, unless you have house rules in place.)

[Hairfish]

Perhaps it's not the sorcery points aspect that's inefficient. I meant to say that it's the action that's inefficient. The same player could cast fireball and then quicken a cantrip instead of doing a cantrip for both.

Right, but that costs a spell slot (or even more SP). You don't owe them a consolation prize for choosing to conserve their resources.

If I played a Fighter in your game, would you let my attacks do extra damage for every turn where I could've used my action surge, but didn't?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Perhaps it's not the sorcery points aspect that's inefficient. I meant to say that it's the action that's inefficient. The same player could cast fireball and then quicken a cantrip instead of doing a cantrip for both.

Actually, not quite.

A spell cast with a Bonus Action is especially swift. You must use a Bonus Action on Your Turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven’t already taken a Bonus Action this turn. You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a Casting Time of 1 action.

They could quicken the fireball and regular cast the cantrip. The above rule is precisely why Quicken has a set cost, imo.

[PhantomSoul]

Right, but that costs a spell slot (or even more SP). You don't owe them a consolation prize for choosing to conserve their resources.

Definitely this -- resource management is part of the game! (And in my opinion, it's more fun that way, even if the resource availability/number/refreshment might be up for discussion haha)

[sayaijin]

Right, but that costs a spell slot (or even more SP). You don't owe them a consolation prize for choosing to conserve their resources.

If I played a Fighter in your game, would you let my attacks do extra damage for every turn where I could've used my action surge, but didn't?

We do so much homebrew that if a player wanted to replace action surge with a different ability, I'd definitely entertain the idea.

Back on topic though, I'll probably just offer to give them the Bladesinger lvl 6 ability in place of their normal subclass ability. Hopefully that's the safest bet.

[Hairfish]

We do so much homebrew that if a player wanted to replace action surge with a different ability, I'd definitely entertain the idea.


That has nothing to do with what I asked. I was trying to illustrate that "turn inefficiency" is a silly reason to buff a resourceless source of damage when contrasted with a resource-consuming one. Of course the thing that consumes resources is going to do more damage per turn, right up until the point where they've expended them all.

BB and GFB are already some of the strongest cantrips around. They're not inefficient at all.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Back on topic though, I'll probably just offer to give them the Bladesinger lvl 6 ability in place of their normal subclass ability. Hopefully that's the safest bet.

I'd urge against mixing & matching like that. I know that 5e subclass abilities aren't as carefully balanced as we might once have assumed (especially once Tasha's entered the mix with broken things like the Twilight domain). But if your player's normal 6th level ability is meh-to-average, this is going to be a big boost to his power level.

Use a (Twinned?) Haste, and still drop some quickened BBs in there on following rounds, and your sorcerer is suddenly making 2 regular and 2 BB attacks in a single round. Multiclass in a couple levels of paladin on top of it, and the rest of your (RAW) martials will be wondering why they bothered showing up.

The point is, even if you do give the sorcerer this unexpected boon, there's nothing stopping him from STILL quickening his BBs.


We do so much homebrew that if a player wanted to replace action surge with a different ability, I'd definitely entertain the idea.

If you do vast amounts of homebrew, at a power level where giving the new (arguably broken) Bladesinger ability is par for the course, then I don't think the posters here can really give you an accurate take on whether it's "overpowered". It's definitely overpowered for a RAW type of game. But maybe not for yours?

[RSP]

I have a player who wants to play a sorcerer version of a Bladesinger and they want to quicken booming blade / GFB as their go-to combat trick. Obviously that is a suboptimal use of sorcerery points, so I was wondering about allowing the following feature either as a freebie or as a feat…

I’d probably try to adhere to the Bladesinger subclass rather than try to reinvent a Sorc’s subclass for it. It certainly won’t be perfect, but I’d rather go with an official subclass on a new class, than try to write a whole new subclasses appearing to be an official subclass.

[Gignere]

I have a player who wants to play a sorcerer version of a Bladesinger and they want to quicken booming blade / GFB as their go-to combat trick. Obviously that is a suboptimal use of sorcerery points, so I was wondering about allowing the following feature either as a freebie or as a feat:

Why doesn’t your player just play a bladesinger? What is it about the sorcerer that he couldn’t get from a Bladesinger? Don’t like the spell book fluff it away. Change spell casting stat to charisma. Restrict himself to two spell known per level and voila you got basically a sorcerer.

If he wants to combine metamagic with Bladesinger cantrip and attack yeah that’s just him trying to be a munchkin.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Why doesn’t your player just play a bladesinger? What is it about the sorcerer that he couldn’t get from a Bladesinger? Don’t like the spell book fluff it away. Change spell casting stat to charisma. Restrict himself to two spell known per level and voila you got basically a sorcerer.

If he wants to combine metamagic with Bladesinger cantrip and attack yeah that’s just him trying to be a munchkin.
To be fair, the Bladesinger isn't just a gish-- there's some very specific fluff and styling that's baked into the core mechanics of the subclass. I think you could probably get away with giving Sorcerers their version of Extra Attack as a 6th level feature--they tend to have fairly strong 6th level subclass features, and not having access to the wonderful all-purpose-non-concentration defensive buff that is Bladesong means that they'll be even more of a glass cannon than their wizardly counterpart.

If you're concerned, you could give the Eldritch Knight's War Magic instead-- that would give you a lesser version of the combo for no resource cost.

[PhantomSoul]

To be fair, the Bladesinger isn't just a gish-- there's some very specific fluff and styling that's baked into the core mechanics of the subclass. I think you could probably get away with giving Sorcerers their version of Extra Attack as a 6th level feature--they tend to have fairly strong 6th level subclass features, and not having access to the wonderful all-purpose-non-concentration defensive buff that is Bladesong means that they'll be even more of a glass cannon than their wizardly counterpart.

If you're concerned, you could give the Eldritch Knight's War Magic instead-- that would give you a lesser version of the combo for no resource cost.

Or for a Sorcerer alternative, the old UAs had a Sorcerer subclass with Extra Attack: https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/modifying-classes .

[jaappleton]

Or for a Sorcerer alternative, the old UAs had a Sorcerer subclass with Extra Attack: https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/modifying-classes .

Oh, so you’re the other person who read that article. XD

[PhantomSoul]

Oh, so you’re the other person who read that article. XD

xD
It makes me sad about what we got instead -- I love a little martial versatility on a spellcaster and it was a nice way to give boosted spell counts & options! (Granted, lots of spells, but freebie thematic ones)

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Alternatively, would it be better if I just literally copy-pasted the level 6 Bladesinger extra attack and replace their usual subclass level 6 feature with that?
As is for most subclasses I don't think this is unreasonable depending on your table. Chuck 2 levels of Paladin on this and I think you've definitely hit OP territory. You might want to have a discussion about multiclassing before allowing this.

[Gurgeh]

Got to love how you can't combine Frenzy and TWF even though a frothing, rage-mad warrior is a perfect fit for it. :/