Smite and clerics

[Athear]

Is there a way for a cleric to have smite via a spell or ACF or any thing like that in 3.0/3.5
I vaguely remember doing that but not sure how I pulled it off.

[Darg]

There is the champion variant cleric. I don't remember what it's from though.

Edit: Unearthed Arcana and SRD (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cleric)

[Khatoblepas]

The champion variant of cleric (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cleric) has it, but I don't recommend it, turn undead is a lot better.

Ordained Champion turns turn undead attempts into smites, though.

[claypigeons]

From Unearthed Arcana and the SRD, you can trade Turn Undead for Smite and Aura of Courage (as a paladin)

It's generally not a great tradeoff, considering all the stuff you could do, or get, with Turn Undead

[Thurbane]

Destruction domain comes with an inbuilt smite, albeit one/day. If you take the Extra Smiting feat, though, I think it adds to each smite source separately?

From the Lists of Stuff (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?454553):


Smite Evil
Paladin
Paladin 1, elf substitution level, Races of the Wild, ranged smite
Exorcist of the Silver Flame 3, 7/10, ecl 8, Eberron Campaign Setting
Eldeen Ranger 5 (Wardens of the Woods), ecl 10, Eberron Campaign Setting
Pious Templar 2, 6, 10/10, ecl 7, Complete Divine
Holy Liberator 1, 5, 10/10, ecl 6, Complete Divine
Scion of Tem-Et-Nu 4, 8/10, ecl 9, Sandstorm
Adras, vestige, ecl 7, Tome of Magic, good or evil
Triadic Knight 5, ecl 10, Champions of Valor
Initiate of Bahamut, feat, Dragon Magic - stacks, see text
Grey Guard 3, 8/10, ecl 8, Complete Scoundrel - can eventually smite any alignment, see text
Shadow Striker 2, ecl 7, Complete Champion
Champion of Gwynharwyf 1, 5, 9/10, ecl 7, Book of Exalted Deeds
Fist of Raziel 1, 3, 5, 7, 9/10, ecl 7, Book of Exalted Deeds, smites gain additional abilities
Initiate of Pistis Sophia 2, 5, 8/10, ecl 8, Book of Exalted Deeds
Stalker of Kharesh 6, 8, 10/10, ecl 11, Book of Exalted Deeds
Argent Fist 4, 8/10, ecl 10, Faiths of Eberron

Smite other than "evil"
Cleric 1, dwarf substitution level, Races of Stone, smite giants replaces turn undead
Blackguard 2, 5, 10/10, ecl 8 - smite good
Shadowbane Inquisitor 2, 6, 10/10, ecl 8, Complete Adventurer - smite the "corrupt"
Vigilante 2, 6, 10/10, ecl 8, Complete Adventurer, smite the guilty
Scar Enforcer 2, 5, 8/10, ecl 7, Races of Destiny - elves and humans only, see text
Hunter of the Dead 2, 6, 10/10, ecl 6, Complete Warrior, smite undead
Sanctified Mind 2, ecl 6, Lords of Madness - "cleansing strike" - smite psionic creature, unclear on uses per day, potentially unlimited
Topaz Guardian 2, 4/5, ecl 7, Lords of Madness - smite abberation
Knight of the Raven 2, 4, 6, 8, 10/10, ecl 6, Expedition to Castle Ravenloft - smite undead
Platinum Knight 1, 4, 7, 10/10, ecl 6, Draconomicon, against evil dragons only, doesn't stack with normal smite
Witch Slayer 1, 2, 3, 4, 5/5, ecl 6, Tome of Magic, against binders with vestiges or other possessed creatures
Crusader 6, 18/20, Tome of Battle, against any
Ordained Champion 2, ecl 6, Complete Champion, no restriction, spend turn/rebuke uses to make more smites
Killoren (Aspect of the Destroyer), race, Races of the Wild, 1/hour, affects abberations, constructs, humanoids, oozes, outsiders, and

undead, see text
Kinslayer 2, 5, 8/10, ecl ?, Drow of the Underdark, elves


Honourable Mention
Extra Smiting, feat, Complete Warrior
Initiate of Nobanion, feat, Champions of Valor - specific use, see text
Initiate of Torm, feat, Champions of Valor - specific use, see text
Triadic Knight 7, ecl 12, Champions of Valor - Threefold Smite
Holy Scourge 2, 4/5, ecl 7, Complete Mage - applies to a spell, see text
Sapphire Smite, feat, Magic of Incarnum - grants additional uses of smite and bonus damage
Exalted Smite, feat, Book of Exalted Deeds, weapon becomes good-aligned
Ranged Smite Evil, feat, Book of Exalted Deeds, can smite with a ranged weapon
Outcast Champion 2, ecl 7, Races of Destiny, Cha uses per day, 1d6 per level
Tattoed Monk 1, ecl 6, Complete Warrior, lion tattoo
Avenging Strike, feat, Tome of Battle, can use Cha times per day only against evil outsiders

[Darg]

The champion variant of cleric (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cleric) has it, but I don't recommend it, turn undead is a lot better.

Ordained Champion turns turn undead attempts into smites, though.

You do get Aura of Courage too though.

[Thurbane]

You do get Aura of Courage too though.

Could be nice if you plan to dip Sacred Exorcist later.

If the Dynamic Priest feat is in play, you can get a lot of mileage out of your Cha.


Destruction domain comes with an inbuilt smite, albeit one/day. If you take the Extra Smiting feat, though, I think it adds to each smite source separately?

Re-reading, looks like it only applies to one source of smite.

[Athear]

The plan is to become an inquisitor at some point was building into shadow bane inquisitor but I want to hit like a semi truck at highway speeds.

[Maat Mons]

Now I'm a little confused. Shadowbane Inquisitor doesn't have Smite as a prerequisite. And there are lots of ways other than Smite to deal extra damage. Why do you feel that making a Shadowbane Inquisitor who hits like a truck necessitates gaining Smite?

Also, Shadowbane Inquisitor has Turn Undead as a prerequisite. So if you're aiming for that, probably don't use any of the options for gaining Smite that replace Turn Undead.

[Athear]

Now I'm a little confused. Shadowbane Inquisitor doesn't have Smite as a prerequisite. And there are lots of ways other than Smite to deal extra damage. Why do you feel that making a Shadowbane Inquisitor who hits like a truck necessitates gaining Smite?

Also, Shadowbane Inquisitor has Turn Undead as a prerequisite. So if you're aiming for that, probably don't use any of the options for gaining Smite that replace Turn Undead.

Because I built another character that used smites like crazy if I remember correctly got a feat that allowed me to burn Turn undead for smite attacks I thought it would work well for this but if you got other suggestion I’m more then willing to here

[Athear]

so Shadowbane inquisitor does get smite so I can move into optimizing that in a few level but what would be would be some good feats to consider. if i can find the feat i was thinking of if it even exists.
do you guys know of a feat that allows you to spend your turning attempts to smites.

[Maat Mons]

The only thing I'm aware of that allows Turn Undead attempts to be spent to Smite is the Ordained Champions prestige class (Complete Champion, p90). It's pretty good. You might want to check it out.

If you're looking to focus on Smiting, the Awesome Smite feat (Complete Champion, p55) is worth a look. Sometimes it's nice to be able to knock an opponent down, or ignore miss chance.

If you're using a Cleric base, the Holy Warrior feat (Complete Champion, p60) is good. It gives you bonus damage equal to the highest-level spell you can cast. So a Cleric 9 would get +5 damage on every attack, all day, because he can cast 5th-level spells. (Compare that to a Whatever 5 / Shadowbane Inquisitor 4, who gets +4 damage on one attack per day, because he has 4 levels in the class that gives him Smite.)

Power Attack is a classic route to dealing good damage. If you can consistently hit in spite of giving yourself large penalties via the feat, you can get really impressive damage. There's lots more that can be said about Power Attack, if you're interested.

With a Cleric base, buff spells should also be considered. But I'm not the best person to give you advice in that area.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

You could also dip Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm); the first level progresses casting and gives you a daily use of Smite, plus a few other perks.

[ShurikVch]

Ordained Champion PrC (Complete Champion) have alignment-independent Smite (fueled by your Turn/Rebuke charges)

Also, Visage of the Deity spell line: Visage of the Deity gives you Celestial or Fiendish template (and thus - Smite Evil or Smite Good), and Greater Visage of the Deity - Half-Celestial or Half-Fiend

[thorr-kan]

Holy Smite spell; usually 4th level, available through some domains.
Righteous Smite spell; usually 7th level; available through some domains.

Domains:
Destruction: smite, +4 attack, +cleric level damage.
Celestial: smite evil, +4 attack, +cleric level damage.

Planar Domains:
Elysium: smite evil, +Cha attack, +class level damage.
Hades: smite good, +Cha attack, +class level damage.
Limbo: smite law, +Cha attack, +class level damage.
Mechanus: smite chaos, +Cha attack, +class level damage.

Feat:
Initiate of Bahamut: smite evil; use cleric level as paladin level.

[bean illus]

Domains:
Destruction: smite, +4 attack, +cleric level damage.
Celestial: smite evil, +4 attack, +cleric level damage.

Planar Domains:
Elysium: smite evil, +Cha attack, +class level damage.
Hades: smite good, +Cha attack, +class level damage.
Limbo: smite law, +Cha attack, +class level damage.
Mechanus: smite chaos, +Cha attack, +class level damage.



When it says "cleric level" or "class level", does that exclude prc?

The planar domain smites are 1 per day plus 1 per 5 levels. Add tha charisma mod can be buffed above +4.

But Ordained Champion seems superior.


Smite (Su): At 2nd level, you can spend one daily use of your turn/rebuke undead ability as a swift action to turn your next melee attack into a smite. You gain a bonus equal to your Charisma modifier on attack rolls, and you deal extra damage equal to your total effective turning or rebuking level. Your smite attack is not limited by alignment or race; you can attempt to smite any foe. Except as noted here, this ability functions like the paladin's smite evil ability (PH 44).

It's possible to optimize all of the facets of this smite. From daily uses to Cha mod, to effective turning level. We're talking +6-8 to hit, and +24-28 damage, multiple times per encounter (while channeling a spell, if you want).

[Troacctid]

It sounds like you're thinking of either the Ordained Champion prestige class or the Divine Might feat.

[thorr-kan]

When it says "cleric level" or "class level", does that exclude prc?
Cleric level means your levels in cleric.

Class level means your levels in all classes.

[Thurbane]

Cleric level means your levels in cleric.

Class level means your levels in all classes.

Class level is somewhat dependent on context: in a PrC, it is generally assumed to mean levels in that PrC, for instance.

In a domain, though, I would agree it applies to your total level. The glossary backs this up: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_characterlevel&alpha=C


character level
A character's total level. For a character with levels in only one class, class level and character level are the same thing.

Source: PHB

[bean illus]

character level
A character's total level. For a character with levels in only one class, class level and character level are the same thing.

Source: PHB

Unfortunately not. I think it means class level.

[Thurbane]

Unfortunately not. I think it means class level.

You're reading that the opposite way I would.

The part I would bold is "A character's total level."

The part you bolded is, to me, just an aside to the main statement.

[Athear]

okay so I've done more work on this build and currently i am a horribly multi-classed monstrosity. I am rogue 2, fighter 1, cleric 2, ordained champion 1.

I have the feats, LVL 1:power attack, LVL 3: weapon focus (Scimitar), Fighter bonus feat: I need help with, LVL 6: Extra turning, Ordained champion: need help with
the end goal is to end up with a massive damage build And am likely going to be improving my ability to smite for more damage. as well as the fact i will be taking levels in Shadowbane Inquisitor.
I will also be using UMD like mad to enhance my abilities and over come my lack of spell casting.

[Faily]

Charging Smite (Paladin ACF) in PHB2 does an additional 2 points per level in damage (so triple basically) when smiting on a charge attack. Nice bonus is that if the attack misses, the Smite isn't considered used. Requires 5 levels in Paladin though, as it replaces Mount.

Divine Might (Complete Warrior) lets you spend turning to add Charisma to damage for 1 round.

If you at some point can cast 4th level spells (and you have the War Domain), you could also consider the Holy Warrior feat from Complete Champion.


HOLY WARRIOR [RESERVE]
Your zeal on the battlefield allows you to deal extra damage
Prerequisites: Ability to cast 4th-level spells, access to the War domain.
Benefit: As long as you have a 4th-level or higher War domain spell available to cast, you gain a bonus on your weapon damage rolls equal to the level of the highest-level War spell you have available to cast.
As a secondary benefit, you gain a +1 competence bonus to your caster level when casting force spells.

[Athear]

Charging Smite (Paladin ACF) in PHB2 does an additional 2 points per level in damage (so triple basically) when smiting on a charge attack. Nice bonus is that if the attack misses, the Smite isn't considered used. Requires 5 levels in Paladin though, as it replaces Mount.

Divine Might (Complete Warrior) lets you spend turning to add Charisma to damage for 1 round.

If you at some point can cast 4th level spells (and you have the War Domain), you could also consider the Holy Warrior feat from Complete Champion.

divine might is interesting but I'm not sure how it would function with a smite attack which all ready uses my charisma to damage

[Faily]

divine might is interesting but I'm not sure how it would function with a smite attack which all ready uses my charisma to damage

1. Smite (of any kind) lets you add your Charisma to Attack rolls, not damage (you add levels to damage, usually Paladin levels or Cleric levels).

2. Even if it was Cha to damage, it would be from different sources. Unless otherwise stated, bonuses (that aren't the same type) from different sources stack.

[Darg]

1. Smite (of any kind) lets you add your Charisma to Attack rolls, not damage (you add levels to damage, usually Paladin levels or Cleric levels).

2. Even if it was Cha to damage, it would be from different sources. Unless otherwise stated, bonuses (that aren't the same type) from different sources stack.

Except the bonus type is your charisma modifier. Now if one of the abilities say that they add a bonus equal to your charisma bonus it would work. Slippers of Battledancing wouldn't stack with smite or divine might as an example of this. A stacking example would be the con to AC of Deepwarden and Fist of the Forest. Deepwarden uses your con modifier instead of your dex modifier while Fist of the Forest adds a separate bonus equal to your con modifier to your AC.

[Thurbane]

Except the bonus type is your charisma modifier. Now if one of the abilities say that they add a bonus equal to your charisma bonus it would work. Slippers of Battledancing wouldn't stack with smite or divine might as an example of this. A stacking example would be the con to AC of Deepwarden and Fist of the Forest. Deepwarden uses your con modifier instead of your dex modifier while Fist of the Forest adds a separate bonus equal to your con modifier to your AC.

There are some arguments that you can't add the same modifier to the same things more than once (Cha to hit, in this case); other arguments are that so long as the sources have different names and are untyped, then they can stack.

I've seen some lengthy debates on the matter, and I don't think either argument is airtight.

[Athear]

thanks all hopefully it works out and my DM allows it
if not do you have an other feat suggestion.

[Asmotherion]

Maybe you were thinking about Holy Smite (the spell)?

[Athear]

Maybe you were thinking about Holy Smite (the spell)?

no I know what i did now.


an other question, where are the rules for wand storing weapons found in 3.5?

[Rebel7284]

another question, where are the rules for wand storing weapons found in 3.5?

Dungeonscape has wand chambers if I recall correctly. If I recall incorrectly, I am sure someone will correct me shortly.

[Darg]

There are some arguments that you can't add the same modifier to the same things more than once (Cha to hit, in this case); other arguments are that so long as the sources have different names and are untyped, then they can stack.

I've seen some lengthy debates on the matter, and I don't think either argument is airtight.

Unless the ability says it gives you a bonus, it doesn't give you a bonus. It's presumptuous to think the effects give you a bonus instead of changing the application of the bonus like other feats similar to shield ward.

[Thurbane]

Unless the ability says it gives you a bonus, it doesn't give you a bonus. It's presumptuous to think the effects give you a bonus instead of changing the application of the bonus like other feats similar to shield ward.

This statement... confuses me greatly. Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying initially? I heartily agree that only things that say they give you a bonus, give you a bonus? :smallconfused:

What I think you were saying is that you can never get X Stat to Y bonus twice, even if they are from completely different sources? If so, then I have seen arguments for, and against, this reading.

[Darg]

This statement... confuses me greatly. Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying initially? I heartily agree that only things that say they give you a bonus, give you a bonus? :smallconfused:

What I think you were saying is that you can never get X Stat to Y bonus twice, even if they are from completely different sources? If so, then I have seen arguments for, and against, this reading.

What I am saying is that smite doesn't give you a charisma bonus to attack rolls. All it does is let you apply something you already have to something else it normally wouldn't. Your charisma score is what gives you your charisma bonus. Because of this, there is nothing to stack in the first place. Monk AC and Swordsage AC don't stack not because they have the same bonus, but because they do the exact same thing. If they stacked it would be like saying weapon finesse gives light thrown weapons double dex bonus to attack on ranged attacks. In all of these cases none of the effects give you a bonus. Take a look at brutal throw. It uses the the same phrasing as smite:


She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll


You can add your Strength modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) to attack rolls with thrown weapons.

Brutal throw doesn't specify that it only applies to ranged attacks, nor does it clarify whether "thrown" applies to the action or the weapon category. Even still it's quite clear that it isn't adding an additional strength bonus to one you already have.

[Thurbane]

I think I get your point, but honestly, I've never seen someone word it in quite that way before.

In any case, I'm having a rough day at work, so I'm not really interested in debating the RAW of this. You are welcome to your POV.

[bean illus]

Ordained Champion has spontaneous war domain, which makes Holy Warrior [Reserve] nearly always available.

[Darg]

Ordained Champion has spontaneous war domain, which makes Holy Warrior [Reserve] nearly always available.

Domain Spontaneity and the war domain would also make that work.

[darkdragoon]

What I am saying is that smite doesn't give you a charisma bonus to attack rolls. All it does is let you apply something you already have to something else it normally wouldn't. Your charisma score is what gives you your charisma bonus. Because of this, there is nothing to stack in the first place. Monk AC and Swordsage AC don't stack not because they have the same bonus, but because they do the exact same thing.

So Swordsages get +1 AC every five levels and Monks can use light armor?


Or perhaps, are you saying you shouldn't stake a vampire because they are obviously undead and "everybody knows" undead are destroyed at 0 HP, right?

[Darg]

So Swordsages get +1 AC every five levels and Monks can use light armor?


Or perhaps, are you saying you shouldn't stake a vampire because they are obviously undead and "everybody knows" undead are destroyed at 0 HP, right?

What are you arguing? Swordsage AC Bonus special ability =/= Monk AC bonus special ability. Vampires are given a specific exception to being destroyed at 0 HP under Slaying a Vampire (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm). Specific rules trump general rules.

[Silly Name]

So Swordsages get +1 AC every five levels and Monks can use light armor?

If I'm reading Darg's argument correctly, he's saying that having two abilities that say "you add your Wisdom bonus to your AC" doesn't give you double Wisdom bonus, because you're not adding separate boni, just the one. It's like having two istances of Power Attack: it doesn't let you Power Attack +.

If one of the abilities said "you gain a [type] bonus to your AC equal to your Wisdom modifier", then it could stack with the other under this reading, I suppose.

[Darg]

If I'm reading Darg's argument correctly, he's saying that having two abilities that say "you add your Wisdom bonus to your AC" doesn't give you double Wisdom bonus, because you're not adding separate boni, just the one. It's like having two istances of Power Attack: it doesn't let you Power Attack +.

If one of the abilities said "you gain a [type] bonus to your AC equal to your Wisdom modifier", then it could stack with the other under this reading, I suppose.

This is correct. Though, I should say that my swordsage and monk example is mistaken because the swordsage AC bonus only works while wearing light armor and a monk unarmored. They would never overlap in the first place.

[RSGA]

One interesting thing to note is that the Ninja, whose AC bonus works exactly like the monk's, has an explicit provision that keeps it from stacking with the Monk's. So at least somebody doing design seemed to have thought that they probably would stack and put in words to keep it from happening.

[darkdragoon]

If I'm reading Darg's argument correctly, he's saying that having two abilities that say "you add your Wisdom bonus to your AC" doesn't give you double Wisdom bonus, because you're not adding separate boni, just the one. It's like having two istances of Power Attack: it doesn't let you Power Attack +.

If one of the abilities said "you gain a [type] bonus to your AC equal to your Wisdom modifier", then it could stack with the other under this reading, I suppose.


Monk is "X + (Y/Z)" though. As is (CA) Ninja for that matter. Even in the "well, ToB is supposed to replace all that" you still have Shadow Sun Ninja referencing monk levels. (Also, kind of odd to have Warblades with no bonus feats because there are no Fighters and thus no fighter bonus feats)



On that note Deepwarden and Fist of the Forest have other differences besides "This is named Stone Warden"


Power Attack is a feat, and feats generally can't be taken again.