How to make sure the big bad gets away?

[poolio]

Greetings playgrounders, so i have a game coming up and i'm wondering how to make sure my big bad gets away from the party, in short, he's a lich (maybe, still not 100% on that being the case, a powerful undead caster for sure) and i have it sorted out how the PCs will be responsible for bringing him back to life, and i want him to spare them as thanks "for now" but i'm not sure what spell will work for this, i thought of maze, but noticed it only hits one target, does anyone know of a better spell, or a way to justify maze (i like to try to avoid the "because i'm the DM so that's how my bad guys spell works" argument, i like to have anything i do, be in the realm of possibility for the players as well.

anyway, any help or insight would be greatly apricated, thank you to anyone taking the time to read and help me :smallsmile:

[Reach Weapon]

If nothing else, everyone loves a self-destructing simulacrum.

[meandean]

I assume these aren't 1st level characters or whatever, that they could do something against a lich other than be easily destroyed.

If so, you're treading on dangerous ground IMHO. It sounds like you're relying on the party to decide to bring him back, and then relying on them to not be able to stop him. Understand that every time you attempt to predict what your party will do, there's a great chance you'll be wrong. And even if you're right, it may not be fun for them if they're just being walked through your story. Strongly consider an approach where he exists independently of the party, and then appears to them from far away via magic... or sends his deputies and minions... or any other way where it actually is impossible for the players to get to him.

If you do run a combat between the lich and the players, you have to accept the possibility that your players will come up with something rules-legal that you didn't think of. If so, let it happen and adjust your story accordingly. It will suck otherwise.

[Sigreid]

My serious advice would be don't. A fair number of players, myself included would be ticked off at that level of railroading.

[poolio]

I assume these aren't 1st level characters or whatever, that they could do something against a lich other than be easily destroyed.

If so, you're treading on dangerous ground IMHO. It sounds like you're relying on the party to decide to bring him back, and then relying on them to not be able to stop him. Understand that every time you attempt to predict what your party will do, there's a great chance you'll be wrong. And even if you're right, it may not be fun for them if they're just being walked through your story. Strongly consider having the lich appear to them from far away via magic, or to send his deputies and minions, or any other way where it actually is impossible for the players to get to him.

If you do run a combat between the lich and the players, you have to accept the possibility that your players will come up with something rules-legal that you didn't think of. If so, you have to let it happen and adjust your story accordingly. It will suck otherwise.

Yeah sorry, they're all level 4 right now, and yeah, trying to predict players is usually an exercise in futility haha, but i like it better then just saying "it happens because i say so" if they come up with something to stop him, then so be it, otherwise, he can come back as a problem later long after they forget about him, it's an open world game so i don't really have a set story, just encounters and ideas that can be tied together depending on what they've said/done so far,

i usually try to avoid going into details just cause i don't want to bog down the day of people who might be taking the time to help me, but maybe a little more will help :smalltongue:

So they're a group of level 4, all with caster classes (a sorcerer, wizard, cleric, and warlock) and they have been tasked with locating the source of a bunch of skeletons hassling a village, deep in the woods they'll find a tomb that could someone in the village has hinted at that may be the problem, when they get there there will be evidence that some other group of adventurers has already been there, and died, the gimmick that will be the main hurdle and the reason they could be responsible for the lich coming back, is every spell cast has a chance to fail, and the magic sapped right from their fingertips and flowing deeper into the tomb to be absorbed by the lich to fuel him back to un-life, he was able to start reanimating the basic undead by feeding off the magic of a couple members of the aforementioned previous party of adventurers fighting animals/monsters that had taken up residence in the tomb.

hopefully that gives some more insight into my reasoning and all that, and why i'm also up for other ideas for a big bad other then a lich, sense i know how a lich is supposed to work, and i have yet to give it a phylactery, which lich's absolutely need, any ideas for that would be welcomed as well.

if anyone wants to know it for whatever reason, i can explain what i plan on doing with him later, and why he ended up there to begin with.

thanks again for taking the time to help :smallsmile:

[poolio]

My serious advice would be don't. A fair number of players, myself included would be ticked off at that level of railroading.

That's exactly why i'm trying to find spells/justifications for my villain to get away, to avoid railroading them and just saying "no, this happens" if they do something i didn't think of, or have some ability i forgot about that would let them somehow wreck him/trap him, then so be it, but they knew at the beginning, it's a big world, not everything's gonna be their level, there is not actual plot starting out, that it's a character driven game, and running from some threats is not just viable, but sometimes necessary as i use loads of random charts to make many many decisions, and that they're not the only adventurers in the world, they could just be like "meh, not our problem now" and just decide to travel half way across the world, in which case i roll some stuff after the game to decide how the world reacts to this new development, it could lead to several NPCs becoming great heroes in their place.

i'm a DM for hire at my local LGS and one of the things i seem to do well, at least better then the other guys there, is run an open world, where you can truly do whatever you want, and i run everything that would be impossible for a video game rpg like Divinity to manage, i usually have around 8-12 hours of extra work managing the game world between weekly gaming sessions lol so in short, i try very very hard to avoid railroading, and i'm just looking for a way to best increase the odds of him getting away, showing a mad flex at how easy it is for him to do so, so that they can feel that growth in power should they do get the chance to face him again, either to save the world or take his throne, plus it would help them feel more involved if something they were responsible for, leading the charge in the destruction of the city they visit most often (i have a narrative reason for it at this point now if he does get away) would have them more invested then if i just made another organization from scratch to do the dirty deeds and planning.

[Brawnspear]

Might I suggest instead of full on spell fizzling, that their magic feels weaker in the ruins. Their DCs are 1 lower, they have a -1 to hit (or just give everything a +1 to ac / saves against magic so you don't need them to worry about recalculating things). If they investigate it well enough, they can find out that some artifacts or spellform or the weave itself is siphoning away a portion of their energy deeper into the ruins.

As for the lich escape, there's always a good old fashioned teleport, or the etherealness spell. Since they are level 4 they won't have access to counterspell just yet, and it's unlikely they'd be able to burn down a lich in 1 turn. There's also Mass polymorph, but it's more likely for a group of casters to make a wisdom save, in that same vein you could upcast hold person. Could go with one of the wall spells, Wall of force blocks ethereal travel, but not sure if that's reasonable to block a misty step or somesuch.
You could also cast Invulnerability and moonwalk out, relying on the lich's decently high saves and legendary resistances to take care of them trying to stop him. (Or do a mix of these, and paralyzing touch anyone who makes the save against the mass disable).

Or if you want to get them scrambling away, Time Stop, and leave a glowing delayed blast fireball hovering in the middle of the room as you walk off.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I mean, he's a lich. He'll just respawn at his phylactery, which presumably the party doesn't have. They can try and raise his body, but his soul isn't dead, it's in his soul-hidey-gem.

He'll come back anywhere that the phylactery is, assuming that it's on the same plane. They kind of have an escape button built-in (thankfully, your PCs aren't high enough level for soul cage yet).

[poolio]

I mean, he's a lich. He'll just respawn at his phylactery, which presumably the party doesn't have. They can try and raise his body, but his soul isn't dead, it's in his soul-hidey-gem.

He'll come back anywhere that the phylactery is, assuming that it's on the same plane. They kind of have an escape button built-in (thankfully, your PCs aren't high enough level for soul cage yet).

Yeah, that's one of the reasons i'm not super set on using a lich, just cause i've done so much research on them for an old game when a player started asking how to become one (they seemed like they were going to try and get a wish and just wish to be one, but without going through the process of becoming one, they wouldn't have had a phylactery and would slowly "starve" as they wouldn't have been to feed it souls lol the wish would have been from a genie, and as such, ripe for messing with players, and the group was pretty cool with being screwed with to begin with) and i know the phylactery is a huge part of their reresection, so i'm trying to figure out how to explain why he would be left with it and not have it destroyed to begin with when he was entombed, but honestly i don't think the PC's would ask to many questions about it and i might be able to get away with it not making the most sense lol

but any ideas for other powerful casters/monsters that could leech magic to come back would be welcomed :smallsmile:

[poolio]

Might I suggest instead of full on spell fizzling, that their magic feels weaker in the ruins. Their DCs are 1 lower, they have a -1 to hit (or just give everything a +1 to ac / saves against magic so you don't need them to worry about recalculating things). If they investigate it well enough, they can find out that some artifacts or spellform or the weave itself is siphoning away a portion of their energy deeper into the ruins.

As for the lich escape, there's always a good old fashioned teleport, or the etherealness spell. Since they are level 4 they won't have access to counterspell just yet, and it's unlikely they'd be able to burn down a lich in 1 turn. There's also Mass polymorph, but it's more likely for a group of casters to make a wisdom save, in that same vein you could upcast hold person. Could go with one of the wall spells, Wall of force blocks ethereal travel, but not sure if that's reasonable to block a misty step or somesuch.
You could also cast Invulnerability and moonwalk out, relying on the lich's decently high saves and legendary resistances to take care of them trying to stop him. (Or do a mix of these, and paralyzing touch anyone who makes the save against the mass disable).

Or if you want to get them scrambling away, Time Stop, and leave a glowing delayed blast fireball hovering in the middle of the room as you walk off.

I really like that -1 idea, it would be enough to intrigue them as to why it happens, and do so without completely screwing them over with their main forms of attacks,
and i completely forgot upcast hold person could effect more then one person! and i really like the idea of the party getting polymorphed into frogs or something then having to watch as he just walks out lol thanks for the insight :smallsmile:

[Sigreid]

That's exactly why i'm trying to find spells/justifications for my villain to get away, to avoid railroading them and just saying "no, this happens" if they do something i didn't think of, or have some ability i forgot about that would let them somehow wreck him/trap him, then so be it, but they knew at the beginning, it's a big world, not everything's gonna be their level, there is not actual plot starting out, that it's a character driven game, and running from some threats is not just viable, but sometimes necessary as i use loads of random charts to make many many decisions, and that they're not the only adventurers in the world, they could just be like "meh, not our problem now" and just decide to travel half way across the world, in which case i roll some stuff after the game to decide how the world reacts to this new development, it could lead to several NPCs becoming great heroes in their place.

i'm a DM for hire at my local LGS and one of the things i seem to do well, at least better then the other guys there, is run an open world, where you can truly do whatever you want, and i run everything that would be impossible for a video game rpg like Divinity to manage, i usually have around 8-12 hours of extra work managing the game world between weekly gaming sessions lol so in short, i try very very hard to avoid railroading, and i'm just looking for a way to best increase the odds of him getting away, showing a mad flex at how easy it is for him to do so, so that they can feel that growth in power should they do get the chance to face him again, either to save the world or take his throne, plus it would help them feel more involved if something they were responsible for, leading the charge in the destruction of the city they visit most often (i have a narrative reason for it at this point now if he does get away) would have them more invested then if i just made another organization from scratch to do the dirty deeds and planning.

Ah, that's good.

So here's a few ideas. If he's a lich, his phylactory isn't there. They could open his clone jar if he's not. They could give or sell his special soul trap object to someone easily dominated for just a few ideas.

[OldTrees1]

Step 1: Accept that the BBEG might not get away.
No matter how carefully you plan, there is always a slight chance the players will surprise you with their ingenuity.

For example, people have been suggesting a lich, but "slaying" a lich is not the only way to defeat them. Tying the lich up and stuffing them into a bag of holding is a popular method for bypassing the lich's defense against death.

A security expert would have called it fence-post security, like building a fence-post over a hundred metres high in the middle of the desert. Only a very obliging attacker would try to climb the fence-post. Anyone sensible would just walk around the fence-post, and making the fence-post even higher wouldn't stop that.

Step 2: If the BBEG needs to get away, but might not get away, then the BBEG was never there in the first place.
If you can't afford the BBEG being caught, then they definitely can't afford it. So they will do everything they can to send someone/something else instead.


Step 3: If it is okay if the BBEG does not get away, then the BBEG can be there. However they will have plans. See examples in this thread, but avoid fence-post security.

[Cheesegear]

in short, he's a lich (maybe, still not 100% on that being the case, a powerful undead caster for sure) and i have it sorted out how the PCs will be responsible for bringing him back to life, and i want him to spare them as thanks "for now" but i'm not sure what spell will work for this

If the Lich, knows he's a Lich, and all that that entails...The way I did it was he gave a mock salute to the party, said 'See ya, losers!' (or something exactly to that effect), and threw himself off of a cliff.

One of the coolest things about Liches - IMO - is that they don't have to afraid to kill themselves to escape whatever situation they're in. If the party doesn't know that the guy is a Lich, it confuses them a lot. And then when your players go 'Hang on, we saw him die.' You get to say 'Yep, you sure did see him die.' ...Gears should be spinning in at least one player's head already.


anyway, any help or insight would be greatly apricated, thank you to anyone taking the time to read and help me :smallsmile:

As another poster said, they're Level 4. They have neither Dispel Magic, nor Counterspell. This is arguably the only time you'll be able to do this without significant cheating DM-writes-the-environment powers.

In order to escape, though; A Lich has spells all the way up to Level 9, you can pick anything you want. Just use any of the standard Wizard escape spells.

I've noticed that a lot of people like to throw around the r-word a lot whenever a DM does something that the players can't stop. That's not what railroading, is. A Lich very clearly has 9th Level spell slots, and one of those spells can be an escape spell. There is no railroading in this scenario. There is the DM playing by the rules. He's blatantly abusing the DM's power. But there's nothing in the rules saying that you can't put a Lich against a Level 4 party, and that the Lich can't have one or more escape spells prepped and ready to go. Having a mega-powerful bad guy show up right at the start and defeat the party is standard story script #5. I see nothing wrong the narrative, itself. The problem is of course how your players react to scenario, and how you play it out, absolutely will determine the table's tone for the next...While. Taking away players' agency should never be off the table, but when you do it, there has to be a pretty good reason for it (Lycan curse is a good example of a DM straight up removing player agency), and you have to make it palatable.
...It's an unspoken rule that the DM is always in charge. It's unspoken. That means when the DM says it out loud, things can get - pun unintended - dicey.

The first thing I would do is have your Lich drop one of the players to 0 - or kill them - (ideally with Disrupt Life, the Lich is too disorientated to do anything else). Maybe even swap a Level 3 spell out for Vampiric Touch, and make it appear like the Lich needs to party to regain its strength. And then taunt them after a Vampiric Touch, hits. 'Thanks for the hit points. I feel good-as-new!' Then escape. The players can attempt to attack the Lich. But at Level 4 it's unlikely to be significant damage, and of course if the Lich is aware that their phylactery is safe, he doesn't give a **** about being attacked. You can even describe how the party is wearing the Lich down, and a few more hits will kill it! But then it doesn't (e.g; Vampiric Touch). If you do it right, your players should hate the Lich, and set out to stop him because the stakes are personal (he killed one of us, and then taunted us!). Your players should want to engage the Lich, because they're invested in the story.

If you do it wrong, the players will cry bull**** and disengage from the adventure, because the Lich is too strong and they can't beat it anyway so why try? Also if the DM is going to use bull**** monsters that we can't beat anyway, what's the point?

Everything about this encounter relies on the DM's ability to tell an interesting narrative. Another thing I might do is make the Lich completely affable. When the players attack him, he likes their style. Good effort, but no cigar. Sorry about your friend on the ground, but the Lich is going to leave now. He likes you. The Lich escapes. But before he does, he straight up tells the players where he's going to be in a few weeks. Come find him when you have more experience. He might have a job for you...Or he'll kill you. Who knows? Let's find out.

Like I said. Mega-powerful bad guy right at the start of an adventure, isn't a new idea. It's how you play it out, that matters.

[MaxWilson]

Greetings playgrounders, so i have a game coming up and i'm wondering how to make sure my big bad gets away from the party, in short, he's a lich (maybe, still not 100% on that being the case, a powerful undead caster for sure) and i have it sorted out how the PCs will be responsible for bringing him back to life, and i want him to spare them as thanks "for now" but i'm not sure what spell will work for this, i thought of maze, but noticed it only hits one target, does anyone know of a better spell, or a way to justify maze (i like to try to avoid the "because i'm the DM so that's how my bad guys spell works" argument, i like to have anything i do, be in the realm of possibility for the players as well.

anyway, any help or insight would be greatly apricated, thank you to anyone taking the time to read and help me :smallsmile:

Here's an opinion: players hate the Big Bad more if he gets away legitimately while killing important NPCs or PCs in the process and taking their stuff.

Therefore, don't do anything special to let this particular Big Bad get away. Give the players a completely fair shot at him, and even lean in their favor when in doubt to let them kill the big bad. If he gets away due to tactical errors by the players or bad luck on dice, great! Pull out your story and run with it. Otherwise, don't, and save that storyline for the next big bad guy you have planned.

Of course liches have a powerful built-in "get away free" card, i.e. resurrection via phylactery. For a lich you'll want to go the opposite direction and contrive ways for them to perma-kill the lich (maybe they resurrect him via his phylactery so it's right there in front of them the whole time?), and then just cross your fingers and hope he survives.

You can of course go the other way and just build the plotline so the BBEG is going to escape all along (lich phylactery; or a Contingency spell; or it's a Simulacrum all along). But players hate the one that got away due to a natural 1 on some player saving throw more than they hate the one the DM was railroading them into hating.


Everything about this encounter relies on the DM's ability to tell an interesting narrative. Another thing I might do is make the Lich completely affable. When the players attack him, he likes their style. Good effort, but no cigar. Sorry about your friend on the ground, but the Lich is going to leave now. He likes you. The Lich escapes. But before he does, he straight up tells the players where he's going to be in a few weeks. Come find him when you have more experience. He might have a job for you...Or he'll kill you. Who knows? Let's find out.

Like I said. Mega-powerful bad guy right at the start of an adventure, isn't a new idea. It's how you play it out, that matters.

I've done stuff like this once before. If you want to confuse the players even more, after the lich cherry-taps (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CherryTapping) one of the players into unconsciousness (pointedly using only Witch Bolt for offense), before he leaves, have him tip them a magic item like a non-rechargeable Wand of Fireballs. "Looks like you guys could use this. It's good through the end of the week." <Teleport away>

Play up the boredom angle for a quasi-immortal being who's lived ten thousand years. He wants to play life on Easy Mode, yes, but he's winning by so much that he wants his enemies to catch up a little bit so it's more fun to crush them. PCs' job is to surprise him by catching up a lot.

[Brawnspear]

I really like that -1 idea, it would be enough to intrigue them as to why it happens, and do so without completely screwing them over with their main forms of attacks,
and i completely forgot upcast hold person could effect more then one person! and i really like the idea of the party getting polymorphed into frogs or something then having to watch as he just walks out lol thanks for the insight :smallsmile:

Happy to help! This has given me some fun stuff to think on for my own campaign, so thank you for getting my gears turning!

[Hytheter]

If you want to be absolutely certain he gets away, just have him offer the players some sweet loot to be delivered later. :smallamused:

[Lupine]

If you want a powerful caster to “get away,” after recently being formed. Have a number of runes on the wall, that the lich can trigger for spell effects. Have one of the spells be teleport or word of recall, and a number of runes equal to player number be runes counterspelling counters on teleport spells.

Then, give the lich no spell slots (he just got formed), making the runes his only attack method. Give players a way of identifying and destroying runes. When things are getting low or tough for the lich, he teleports away.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Contingency is another possibility, now that I think about it. Have it trigger something like word of recall when he utters the phrase "I surrender" or the like.

[MrStabby]

So I won't say what's right, but rather just what I would do.

1) Don't make the Big Bad just a Lich. This is the focus of your campaign so go to town. Work out a really cool, strong theme to add to "undead caster". So you could look at fire magic and the lich has burning skeletons, can open portals to elemental plane of fire, summon burning shackles to bind enemies etc.. Or the "Lich" is more like a mummy - in service to an ancient god with all of the domain type powers associated with it.

2) Make the escape ability tie with this. So if you have a fiery lich they might generate a burning soot cloud that blocks vision, chokes enemies and does fire damage and within which they colapse into ash... only to step out of any fire within a 2 mile radius. Make the escape ability something that the PCs can prepare for later and can interact with. If you go for the example of the "divine lich" then you can word of recall them to a temple which then becomes a plot hook itself - to find the temple and you have foreshadowed a really cool location.

3) Let the players win... but winning can have many forms. The lich geting away may be respite for the town. The encounter may say a lot about the lich giving the party an advantage for later. The whole "tomb" can be rigged to give information and clues. And treasure. Driving off the Big Bad but not wrapping up the quest line is OK as long as it feels rewarding and like you "won" if you deserved to win.

[meandean]

Here's an opinion: players hate the Big Bad more if he gets away legitimately while killing important NPCs or PCs in the process and taking their stuff.

Therefore, don't do anything special to let this particular Big Bad get away. Give the players a completely fair shot at him, and even lean in their favor when in doubt to let them kill the big bad. If he gets away due to tactical errors by the players or bad luck on dice, great! Pull out your story and run with it. Otherwise, don't, and save that storyline for the next big bad guy you have planned.Right. And now that I know the characters are 4th level... even though you still can't 100% assume they won't be able to stop the lich, and should be prepared for what happens if they do... it does at least become a very, very safe assumption.

And regarding your first point, that definitely sounds like a way better reason to hate the Big Bad than the one originally proposed. You're "responsible for unleashing the evil" by... just doing what you would normally do, with no indication that it could or would have that result? If this were a book, you could write the characters that way, and it'd be plausible. People do often feel responsible for things that really aren't their fault. But, this isn't a book... the players are the ones who determine how their characters feel and react... and they very well might not feel or react that way.

[da newt]

The very KISS version of this is the Lich is trapped, the party does XXX and untraps him, he toys with the party (beats them as much as you'd like to support your story, add a legendary action counterspell and he should be able to act with impunity).

If he gets away - great, if they totally luck out and manage to destroy him, he returns to his phylactery and reforms - either way he's out there to be the BBEG.

[Toadkiller]

If they finish him off then have them find a half written letter that starts “My Master,” and begins to detail how the plan is going.

Gives you a chance to do some exposition and, hopefully, scares them about who it is this dude that was so tough (hopefully) to beat works for exactly. If they do beat him modify it to a letter from an underling with a report. Perhaps a side quest they need to run down.

[Segev]

It could be a bluff.

Sure, MAYBE the party is no match for the evil thing of evil they just revived, but it's JUST BEEN REVIVED and is taking zero chances that they could be here to finish it off in a way it can't be revived from. So when they revive it, it immediately teleports or even plane shifts away, leaving an illusion behind to thank them for their service in reviving it, and let them know it is sparing them as a reward. If they attack it, it could either be an illusion that fades away as wisps, or just is obviously revealed as an illusion, or even a full-on simulacrum that tells them their insolence and ingratitude for its mercy will be punished. In the last case, make the sacrificial interaction doll a strong fight but one you expect the PCs to win.

Essentially, don't give the PCs a chance to face the real target if you want it to escape.

[poolio]

There's been some really good suggestions, and ideas, sense i checked in yesterday, thank you to everyone for your contributions to the thread,i made a second thread that wasn't going anywhere, and i, admittedly, got a bit salty and raged out of that one ^^; lol could have used most of you for that one :smalltongue:

but anyway, if anyone is interested, i'll lay out the plans for this big bad and why i want him to be able to get away to help be a part of the campaign idea further down the line.


so, several hundred years ago, there was a war between the elves, and the human empires, one of the driving factors in the elves ability to force a stand still leading to a call to end things between the two nations, was a necromancer, a very powerful one, but necromancy in the form of raising the undead, is seen as dark, evil magic, and with an end to things, the elvish empire couldn't be associated with such dark magic, so they had him, and all his soldiers loyal to him, murdered, and placed in an unnamed tomb deep in the forests, after so long, eventually some intrepid group stumbles upon it, and decides to do what adventurers do, and go poking around, while in there, fighting slimes, oozes, and whatever else one might find in a tomb like that, he begins syphoning off magic from them, enough to begin giving life once more to his troops, killing off the group that was in there while they were vulnerable, and then sending his minions out to attract more wandering adventurers to continue to feed of their magic and grow stronger.

after the players inadvertently raise him fully, he'll spare them, and go off to get his revenge, which he will do by finding people and convincing them that the elvish republic has lost it's way, they no longer respect the forests, and take from nature rather then live in harmony with it, and must pay for it.

from here i'll have a bunch of quests that have the players helping some NPCs they're already friends with who are established as loveing nature and caring about it's balance very much (they had to fetch some giant python eggs, and were asked to do so without killing the snake mother or taking all the eggs) then after the destruction of the city starts, they can see who was responsible for orchestrating the whole thing, the big bad bone daddy they "let" get away.

they all have pretty heavy self preservation instincts so i don't expect them to act as the selfless heroes to go and try and stop him right away or to tell anyone that they may have been responsible at all in him coming back, of course i'm also ready for them to join him right then, or even later on, i once had a group do something similar with a vampire lord, he spared them for freeing him, but then half were like "Wait! can i be a vampire?" and so they worked to help him rebuild his empire instead of it happening in the back ground lol

so anyway, if the lich dies, then i can still have the "nature must reclaim the lands" thing happen, but this way there's more of the feeling like "oh crap, we did this" then if i just make an organization/cult out of nowhere.

again, thanks everyone for the help and the ideas, it's very much apricated. peace.

[Sparky McDibben]

Please don't negate your players' choices. Seriously, would you like it if you were a player and your actions didn't matter because the DM needed the bad guy to escape?

See here for an alternative approach: https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/36383/roleplaying-games/dont-prep-plots-you-will-rue-this-day-heroes-the-principles-of-rpg-villainy

[Cheesegear]

after the players inadvertently raise him fully, he'll spare them...

The rest of your story is kind of meaningless, if you don't nail this one, sentence. After raising a super-powerful NPC, you have two choices:

1. My players, and a lot of other players, naturally, will recognise the superior creature immediately - possibly even meta-gaming how it totally is a Lich and the DM (me) ain't slick. Combat is not an option, and immediately try and offer service. This is usual for players who opt to play on the Neutral Evil-to-Chaotic Neutral spectrum. If you can't kill it, wait...Then kill it. This does require roleplaying, and it also requires your players' ability to accept that they are not the most powerful actors in their story (yet?). Some players find the notion that their characters aren't powerful (yet) to be anathema, and will try and fight everything.

A great idea might be to use the Patron system out of Tasha's. However now your players are in the business of aligning themselves with an Evil entity. You're doing an Evil campaign, now.

2. If your players are inexperienced, and the Lich does the 'Everyone within 20 ft. takes a ****load of Necrotic damage...At Level 4.', and your players still think they got this...Lean into it. If your players want to fight, then fight. But immediately pull back when you're about to hit a TPK. Killing individual players is fine. I haven't played with a DM yet, who likes causing a TPK. Yes. They happen. But almost every DM I know feels bad whenever it does.


from here i'll have a bunch of quests that have the players helping some NPCs they're already friends with who are established as loveing nature and caring about it's balance very much (they had to fetch some giant python eggs, and were asked to do so without killing the snake mother or taking all the eggs)

No, no...Nooo... This should've been done before waking the Lich. This is where Level 1-3 is important. But I'm going to guess that if the players are Level 4, you either skipped a very important part of character growth (i.e; Playing the game and seeing how your players react to minor obstacles), or you did play through Levels 1-3 and...Didn't do the most important part of that part of a campaign.

Your players should be invested in the world - and the world invested in the players - before you introduce the idea that there's a big bad out there to destroy it. If you introduce the idea that there's a big bad going to destroy the world, but your players don't know anything about the big bad, nor the world...They're most likely to choose whichever rewards them, most. Which is almost always 'Whichever lets us do more combats.'


so anyway, if the lich dies

Unless you're screwing with the rules of the Phylactery, the Lich can't die. That's what makes them good recurring villains.
There's a very long-running webcomic about a Lich trying to take over the world. You should read it. :smallwink:


Please don't negate your players' choices. Seriously, would you like it if you were a player and your actions didn't matter because the DM needed the bad guy to escape?

The only way I can see a Level 4 party beating a Lich, is if they cast Silence first, and ask questions never, but then Disrupt Life has a ConDC 18 and does a lot of damage. If the Lich chooses to do so, a Level 4 party can be ruined in short order, Silence'd or not.

I can't imagine what a Level 4 party is meant to do against a Lich, in combat. Which means that this encounter can only be solved with roleplaying and narrative. Which can only be done at that DM's table. Whether or not the DM 'negates player choices' (I'll remind you, it's a Lich, and the party is Level 4), is utterly dependent on the choices the players make. But even looking at a Lich's base spell list; Plane Shift*. Bye.

*As an Undead, you can have him tied to the Shadowfell (or Orcus...). Since your campaign features Elves heavily (I'm assuming), that also lets you bring in shenanigans with the Raven Queen.

[Segev]

No, no...Nooo... This should've been done before waking the Lich. This is where Level 1-3 is important. But I'm going to guess that if the players are Level 4, you either skipped a very important part of character growth (i.e; Playing the game and seeing how your players react to minor obstacles), or you did play through Levels 1-3 and...Didn't do the most important part of that part of a campaign.

For what it's worth, I believe the OP means, here, that the party has ALREADY done the python egg quest and other such things to make friends with these NPCs before the lich reawakens. They are, post-lich-awakening, going back to these friends and allies to try to do something about the lich.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Have you thought about making him a Vampire? He could turn to mist and just slip through a iron grate.

If you want the Big Bad to escape, he does so early. Even if his chance of death is 10% that is unacceptable so long as he can still accomplished his long term goals. Only when his plans have been thwarted or will be thwarted if he runs should the big bad stay and fight.

So he gives a little speech thanks the PCs then teleports away.

[Porcupinata]

My serious advice would be don't. A fair number of players, myself included would be ticked off at that level of railroading.

Agreed.

I would also add that as both a player and a DM I'm tied of the whole "big bad" and "boss fight" trope in general. There's a whole world of fictional adventure tropes out there and all sorts of ways things can come to a climax. Having every campaign culminate in a fight against a single powerful character who is behind whatever issues the campaign has been based around is just a tired and trite cliche and is way too "videogamey" to me.

Seriously, there are loads of ways to finish a story in an exciting climax yet so many D&D campaigns default to "fight the boss monster". Just look to your favourite TV shows and films for alternative dramatic climaxes.

The only thing worse than the "fight the boss monster to win" cliche is the "you must fight the boss monster earlier in the story before you're ready but you won't be killed and the boss monster will escape, in order to set up the 'fight the boss monster to win' cliche in advance" cliche.

Sorry, rant over. Please continue with your normal thread...

[Unoriginal]

Sparing the PCs just mean not killing them. To paraphrase a Disney movie, you'd be surprised how much you can live through.

That being said, personally I would have the big bad be genuinely friendly and grateful for the PCs' help, even offering them gifts or assistance in the quest the PCs were doing before freeing them.

After all, the group did the Big Bad a solid, and they are neither the people who imprisoned them nor opposing the Big Bad yet. So they habe no reason to do anything bad to them.

In my experience players rarely attack genuinely helpful NPCs unless they're the kind to kill anyone on a whim.

[MaxWilson]

But immediately pull back when you're about to hit a TPK. Killing individual players is fine. I haven't played with a DM yet, who likes causing a TPK. Yes. They happen. But almost every DM I know feels bad whenever it does.

I think it's because it ends the game on a note that leaves the players frustrated and unable to move forward and get closure. I say this because the only times I've not minded TPKing a party have been when there are games structures already in place to say what happens next, e.g. players already know that TPK = DM earns a point of karma and the day rewind to a previous point in time before the TPK, or TPK = focus switches IMMEDIATELY to B team. Notably, "game is over for today but next week we'll switch to backup characters and form a B team" still feels bad, so I think it's important to provide closure to players as quickly as possible, or a means of moving forward.

Bottom line: you're right, no DM enjoys causing TPKs per se, but it's important to be prepared for them if you want players to have a chance of still enjoying themselves, especially if the risk of failure is an important part of your game style.

[DwarfFighter]

Greetings playgrounders, so i have a game coming up and i'm wondering how to make sure my big bad gets away from the party,

Simple: The guy just leaves. If you want something more dramatic than him just walking out on them like he's got a different meeting to attend, there is GMs choice: Flight, teleportation, turns-to-mist, secret trap door, turns invisible and stealthily leaves by other mundane means.

The safest way if you are concerned about PC countermeasures, he's already left! At the end of the encounter the mask is removed to reveal he's just a double!

Or you could have the PCs leave instead, some of the examples above could force them to leave. There is also telekinesis, reverse gravity, a surge of water (the flush!) or wind (the f*rt!).

Finally, restraining the PCs somehow allows for a bit of chit-chat and exposition before the encounter is ended. Webs, gravity manipulation (again), walls of force or elements, or simply having the ground open up into a chasm to separate the belligerents. The bad guy can then leave or flush the PCs as needed.

[MaxWilson]

For some reason this thread has me pondering a Big Bad Evil Guy who, when released from captivity, offers to fulfill three wishes for the PCs out of gratitude.

(But like Aladdin's genie in the original story, there are some wishes he refuses to fulfill. The genie took offense at Aladdin asking for a roc egg, refused, and said he would have kill Aladdin for asking except that he knew the bad guy of the story put Aladdin up to it. The point though is to give heroes a reason to initially view the BBEG's emergence as a good thing for them personally, in order to create cognitive dissonance when it's a bad thing for the rest of the world.)

[MrStabby]

2. If your players are inexperienced, and the Lich does the 'Everyone within 20 ft. takes a ****load of Necrotic damage...At Level 4.', and your players still think they got this...Lean into it. If your players want to fight, then fight. But immediately pull back when you're about to hit a TPK. Killing individual players is fine. I haven't played with a DM yet, who likes causing a TPK. Yes. They happen. But almost every DM I know feels bad whenever it does.

Dude... not cool :smallwink:




But yeah, TPKs are often better avoided. That said, it depends on your group. After the first time they can lean a DM doesn't pull any punches and the easiest way to avoid a TPK is often to be playing with a group that has already had one.

[Unoriginal]

For some reason this thread has me pondering a Big Bad Evil Guy who, when released from captivity, offers to fulfill three wishes for the PCs out of gratitude.

(But like Aladdin's genie in the original story, there are some wishes he refuses to fulfill. The genie took offense at Aladdin asking for a roc egg, refused, and said he would have kill Aladdin for asking except that he knew the bad guy of the story put Aladdin up to it. The point though is to give heroes a reason to initially view the BBEG's emergence as a good thing for them personally, in order to create cognitive dissonance when it's a bad thing for the rest of the world.)

Could have the BBEG be a literal Genie who's fine with granting three wishes to the PCs. That doesn't mean it's the only thing they have going on.

"Oh, I see where the miscommunication is. I'm not stuck in the ring, you're simply summoning me when you activate it. I've my own business to take care of, after all."

[Skrum]

Give him some of the good escape spells (invisibility, misty step, dimension door, etc), have him try to escape, but if the players go after him hard and get him, let it happen.

After years away from the game I recently came back to it and I've had to relearn a similar lesson the hard way. Don't make obvious railroads. Players really resent it, especially if it takes the form of not letting their characters succeed at something they probably should. In this case, having the BBEG meet the players implicitly suggests they can attack him and plausibly kill him.

If running the chance of the players taking him down here and now doesn't appeal, than I would suggest finding another way to structure this. Maybe make his revival off-screen, and the players learn about it via NPC retelling.

[Reach Weapon]

A slightly different direction to consider:

Give the party methods to "defeat" the revival tomb, including identifying and disabling the energy collectors, while you hit them with waves of increasingly powerful undead. No new undead after they clear the last collector, and a bit later perhaps a sound and flash with the remaining undead simply crumbling away in a swirl of dust. Later (much) events should probably clarify this was the now fully charged big bad simply leaving off screen. A careful search of the tomb should reveal an emptied lowest level and what will become the big bad's calling card, perhaps a shabby purple rose with unnaturally long thorns.

From there, give the party the full "benefits" of a psycho secret admirer. Merchants that overcharge them, lordlings that insult them, barmaids that spill their drinks, all punished excessively. A whole potential medium bad organization wiped out when the party heads after them. Calling cards abound.

When the party eventually begins to work against the big bad, that's when subtle corrections start, then circumspect communications, with a relatively quick and extreme jump to full on nice guy fury. Towards the end, the party aren't the only forces working against the big bad, and perhaps not even the strongest, but it is their efforts that the big bad is taking oh so personally.

[Toadkiller]

Oh! There’s some good stuff there.

[poolio]

Oh! There’s some good stuff there.

Indeed, but i could do with more people reading everything before just saying "no no no, your idea is bad, don't do that" and especially without offering other ideas, there's a lot of negativity here lately.

look folks, it's impossible, or at least very difficult to get across without writing a full essay, to get across the idea and feeling of the particular game or thought process, so take a second, and think about how what your reading COULD work before saying something.

some of y'all are making me want to just say "screw it we're just doing this campaign book now" to my group, and the only reason i kept saying he was going to be a lich, if some of you took the time to read everything i wrote, is because i don't know any lore/spells/mechanics to use to justify his existence other anyway other then a lich, at least not without just saying "meh, magic", and i don't like even killing off one player, it sets back story progression sense everything they do is related to individual characters choices, a dead player ends those and sets everything back, a tpk in this kind of game is pretty much just a hard reset at that point, but sometimes the dice just aren't in the players favor, and i still don't see how any of it is railroading, they have spells and tactics that could give them the edge to win, he's freshly resurrected and wouldn't have all his spells, and i wouldn't give him lair actions sense it's not his lair, he really just got there.

so if this sounds salty, it's just getting annoying having so many people popping up in my threads that just s*it on so many thoughts without offering anything useful or any ideas at all, like yeah, "railroads are bad", unless you're a group that just likes to go on dungeon crawls, fighting monsters, and don't care to much about npc interactions, which i've had at least two full groups of, they don't care if there's a railroad as long as they just get to be at the next step and do their thing, and i've had one group that were all about finding out what the story was, and as such didn't seem to mind the campaign being a bit railroady at the time cause they wanted to see what was next, and this current group, like i mentioned in an earlier post, is in an open world game, they're not "the heroes of the story" unless they want to be, and actively get involved with what ends up happening.

it's enough to make me think some of you guys don't know what railraoding is.

[Segev]

Making sure I'm not missing anything: are you okay with it being a lich? Do you prefer it not to be? Do you want ideas of what else it could be? Or am I barking up the wrong tree, still, trying to even ask?

I get the feeling we're not answering the question you want answered, here.

[GeneralVryth]

Globe of Invulnerability is a nice way to say no to all low level magic (from casters that presumably don't want to get close). Between that and the likes of Shield, and Misty Step any high level caster should be able to just walk on out the front door, and then I don't know, Shapechange and fly off. You have lots of solutions here. The level difference is so high (assuming the threat whatever it is can cast 9th level spells), that just pick your poison and play like a PC would. Personally, I kind of like the idea of giving the a warning (maybe 2), the first time they try and stop them. Maybe a Mass Suggestion ordering them to stand down. If they don't get the hint, hit them with something like a Cone of Cold that is likely to knock at least one unconscious. If they still don't get the hint, hit one of the ones still making an aggressive move with a 7th level Disintegrate. If they still feel like trying to stop the caster after watching one of their own killed in a way that is really hard to come back from, keep doing it until the caster is out of spell slots, they're all incapacitated or they stop attacking.

Or phrased another way, you have such a wide level difference to play with, you can choose from a wide range of solutions and expect them to work. You could literally take a page out of Xykon's book of BBEG's having fun with their enemies.

[Cheesegear]

it's enough to make me think some of you guys don't know what railraoding is.

I think to many players, 'railroading' just means any time that the DM has control over the situation, rather than the players. Failing to realise that the DM has control over every situation. If the DM wants something to happen, it will. The trick, is figuring out how to make the thing you want, happen, using both narrative and in-rule mechanics to make it happen, so that it doesn't look like you're pulling stuff out of your ****.

For example, an obvious railroading is "No, because I said you can't." As long as you say anything other than that, for why a player's action has failed, they usually wont know that they're being railroaded, because they're the ones reacting to the story. An NPC can react to the players...By doing exactly what you planned them to do. Crazy.

1. Talk
2. Fight
3. Do Nothing / Observe / (Stealth)
4. Avoid / Run / (Stealth)

If you plan for your players to do one of those four things; You've planned for the vast majority of their reactions, barring some very creative spell or ability usage. If you plan, for all 4 reactions, to be exactly the same...The players shouldn't know that, because they've chosen how they've reacted. They've used their agency in the best way that they knew how. Whether that results in a different outcome, is always up to you, the DM. And the amazing thing is, you can choose for the outcomes to not be different.

1. Talk to the Lich. He smiles and leaves.
2. Fight the Lich. He laughs at you, and leaves.
3. Do nothing to the Lich. He ***** his head sideways and looks at you like you're a weird pet who's done something funny, and leaves.
4. Run away from the Lich. He cackles manically as he thanks you for freeing him, and leaves.

But the players chose how they reacted to the situation, and that's all they really need to do. What your character chooses to do, always matters, even if you don't realise it at the time.

As the old adage goes; We don't control our circumstances. We only control how we react.
You can actually apply that to D&D players.

[Unoriginal]

the only reason i kept saying he was going to be a lich, if some of you took the time to read everything i wrote, is because i don't know any lore/spells/mechanics to use to justify his existence other anyway other then a lich, at least not without just saying "meh, magic",

You could say that the guy went so far he became a fiend, either Demon or Devil. They pop back up into the Abyss or the Hells if they're killed in the material plane. Also a good explanation why he was imprisoned rather than just killed.

If the PCs do manage to kill the BBEG for some reason, then his allies and followers can help him gather strength then summon him again now that he's free to act.

[Danielqueue1]

Okay hear me out, The mislead spell. Villain gets woken up, casts mislead imediately. Illusory duplicate speaks with party, gloats a bit, thanks them etc. Then when the party activates any sort of cunning plan, it hits the illusion and the villain has already been taking a leasurely stroll out of the dungeon. The odds of someone having, prepairing, and choosing to cast see invisibility is low and detect magic only gives an aura around visible stuff. And if they somehow do thwart that, it is only a 5th level spell. Use dimension door etc next.

[Randomthom]

Perhaps the Lich has been prevented from reforming. His Phylactery is elsewhere but his soul is trapped in some magical bubble next to a pile of bones (his bones). He will linger as some incorporeal undead just long enough to present himself as the antagonist.

The heroes need something inside that bubble but can't enter it and so will release him to get to it. He thanks them but makes some threat and leaves (incorporeal beings can move through walls).

Perhaps you could tie him into one of the PC's backstories or maybe he hates the nation/organisation/lord they represent.

[poolio]

Making sure I'm not missing anything: are you okay with it being a lich? Do you prefer it not to be? Do you want ideas of what else it could be? Or am I barking up the wrong tree, still, trying to even ask?

I get the feeling we're not answering the question you want answered, here.

Sorry for slow reply, but yes, i am very much interested in ideas that could be used other then a lich, like i mentioned, i know very well what the mechanics behind a lich and its resurrection, and don't know what to do about his phylactery, anyway.

yes, i am fully open to any and all ideas and input that actually helps or offers something other then just criticism without anything helpful or at least interesting.

[Segev]

A ghost is a possibility. Maybe it was semi-happily haunting or otherwise sealed within a tomb or other site that the party broke the seal on and let it out, and now it's enraged. Even if they kill it, it will reform if they haven't figured out how to lay it to rest. You can set up whatever requirements you like for it to be laid to rest, enabling the quests you want to send them on.


A fiendish spirit that is the same sort that gets conjured by find familiar, but particularly old and nefarious, is released from the seal the party breaks. It can answer any find familiar spell, and if killed just dissipates to await re-calling as normal. It will seek to form a Fiend pact with a nascent warlock and use Pact of the Chain to forge itself a stronger body. Regardless of its master - warlock, wizard, sorcerer, or even bard or magic initiate - it is clever, devious, and manipulative, and forges "BBEGs" out of them. Or it finds a new "master" to manipulate.


The facility they unleash the bad guy in is one of his ancient labs, and breaking the container reveals it to have been a clone receptacle. Triggering it activates thousands of whispering magic mouths all around the base, which set up a chain reaction to activate hundreds of other clone vats, all ready to go. Kill one clone, and the furthest-away one activates. Hunt down a clone vat, and the current one escapes. Perhaps there are also other facilities, in case anything happens to this one; they've ALL come active with the whispering of the magic mouths.


5e nagas are eternal; kill them and they reform.

[JeenLeen]

I think the lich materializing as a friendly (not kind, per se, but friendly due to being revived) NPC is a good way. Even if the PCs are initially hostile, have him seem confused and/or offended in a "why are you attacking me?" sense. He thanks them, maybe asks if he can do anything small as a token of thanks. Even as the PCs (mostly futilely?) strike at him.

A lich sounds like a good idea, because if the PCs do somehow manage to kill him, he's not really gone.

But it sounds like his motivation wouldn't have him be openly hostile to everyone. Especially if he wants to convince folk to turn against the Elven nation, he'd likely do a mix of diplomacy/propaganda and consolidating his evil, undead power. Being mean to the folk who revive him does not benefit him in that goal.

-- ---

However, if the PCs defeat him... maybe you can fill in the gap and not let the PCs know?

Here's an example of how I saw this in a game I was in.
Our party was joined by an NPC, who we out-of-character were about 90% sure was evil, but had no reason to suspect IC. That NPC died in combat. We later found out that that NPC was the son of an evil wizard we'd been hunting since about the time the game started.

After the game ended, the DM admitted that that NPC originally was the wizard we'd been hunting since the game started. But, with him dying... well, that broke a lot of the plot, and we never found out the identity, so he just retconned that it was his son.

In your example, I could see adding a layer to the lore. You could retcon that the BIG LICH had four lich leutenants. The elves, not willing to just seal away the lich, sealed him via his leutentants. Only once all 4 leutenants were rezzed and then destroyed, would the BIG LICH be freed.
Over time, three of the four leutenants had already been freed and destroyed. Turns out the PCs just freed and destroyed the last one, meaning the BIG LICH is now free.

You'd just need to add in some stories of other adventuring parties, or legends of adventurers long ago, having an incident similar to what the PCs did, and some allusions to the sealing. If you do it well, the PCs won't know it was ever a retcon. AND the BIG LICH could, if he realizes who was responsible, still give a humorous 'thank you' when he meets the PCs.

[JeenLeen]

Sorry for slow reply, but yes, i am very much interested in ideas that could be used other then a lich, like i mentioned, i know very well what the mechanics behind a lich and its resurrection, and don't know what to do about his phylactery, anyway.


We had a cool game where a lich had a fake phylactery he wore as a holy symbol, then another one sealed in a hidden wall in his base.
His real phylactery was one of the gold coins hidden in a better-hidden treasure chest.

Fortunately, by the time we fought him, our PCs had some good resources and the ability to Detect Magic to realize the chest contained something with a big evil aura. We put the chest in a room dimensionally-locked and just waited for the lich to form, then killed him again. Then got to destroying coins.

BUT -- putting aside my story, just noting the lich could have multiple layers of deception to protect his phylactery. But keep in mind it should be solvable by the PCs (at least mid-to-late game), lest it just seem unfair.