Why is Warblade 8/Crusader 2/Eternal Blade 10 good?

[Albanymusicfund]

As the title suggests, I've been looking for ways to optimize a martial adept build. While there are many ways to do so, I was most interested by a Warblade + Eternal Blade combination.

That said, why do people recommend Crusader to be added to this build? From my understanding, it's something to do with how crusader refreshes his maneuvers, but I am really lost. Could please somebody explain why the way Eternal Blade refreshes maneuvers make the addition of Crusader very strong? I understand that Crusader's unique disciplines are increased by Eternal Blade levels, but wouldn't that mean your Crusader-specific maneuvers are really low level? Are the Crusader-specific maneuvers the only ones that refresh like a crusader even if the discipline overlaps with Warblade>

Thank you in advance,

AlbanyMusicFund

[LunaticChaos]

Looking at the classes and options in question I'd say it comes down to a few things.

1) The Crusader recovery method is automatic. Meaning you don't have to actively renew them, they just do their own thing even if you don't use them. So pick the maneuvers/stances that remain good regardless of level or initiator level. Specifically Vanguard Strike, Defensive Rebuke, and Thicket of Blades.

2) Indomitable Soul strikes me as important if you have good Cha. As Warblade and Eternal Blade both have bad Will saves, getting a boost to your Will saves can really help. And really the only reason I can see going Crusader 2 is to get this and take advantage of it, otherwise Warblade 9 seems to be a better value.

3) If you haven't already gotten your prereqs for Eternal Blade its a quick and easy way to pick them up. Given the maneuvers and the like available to both Warblade and Eternal Blade I imagine if you aren't going Diamond Mind you'd concentrate on White Raven with your Warblade and Utility maneuvers to boost it. So picking up Crusader to get the prereqs seems a solid enough choice.

But to answer the other question. Yes only the maneuvers known and readied by your Crusader levels will refresh via the crusader method. Its just like multiclassing two spellcasting classes. However unlike multiclassing two spellcasting classes, half your other class will count for your Initiator level.

But I'm not a fan of Crusader because of randomness and as such I generally try to avoid it, so I could be missing something. Someone who likes the class more could likely offer more insight on this subject.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

But I'm not a fan of Crusader because of randomness and as such I generally try to avoid it, so I could be missing something. Someone who likes the class more could likely offer more insight on this subject.

The old line was always something to the effect of "A random pile of awesome is still awesome." You could also take Extra Granted Maneuver so that, no matter what, you're only ever "down" two of your maneuvers. There is also some added benefit in not needing to spend an action to refresh your pool if the fight goes that long. It's less an issue at low levels, but Boosts, Counters, and switching stances each require a swift action (effectively, as the Counter would take the next rounds action).

Another point to multiclassing is that the Stance progression is off for pretty much everyone in ToB. Stances don't exist at every Maneuver Level, and the class tables for when you get a new stance don't match those tables. So by multiclassing, you can smooth that progression a little bit, plus maybe pickup something you wanted via the extra maneuvers from Crusader without spending X feats on Martial Study/Stance.

[LunaticChaos]

The old line was always something to the effect of "A random pile of awesome is still awesome." You could also take Extra Granted Maneuver so that, no matter what, you're only ever "down" two of your maneuvers. There is also some added benefit in not needing to spend an action to refresh your pool if the fight goes that long. It's less an issue at low levels, but Boosts, Counters, and switching stances each require a swift action (effectively, as the Counter would take the next rounds action).


Part of my dislike of the random is that it's another step to take during combat and slows the game down. Though disliking the random for unavailability is part of it as well. The Extra Granted Maneuver feat is a valid point admittedly, though that is a feat tax that can interfere with one's build. Though I don't believe this is an issue with the build our OP is aiming for.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Part of my dislike of the random is that it's another step to take during combat and slows the game down. Though disliking the random for unavailability is part of it as well. The Extra Granted Maneuver feat is a valid point admittedly, though that is a feat tax that can interfere with one's build. Though I don't believe this is an issue with the build our OP is aiming for.

I understand why people dislike it. That lack of control is somewhat of an issue. As for timing, it's not too bad if you have a RNG and/or (numbered) cards you can shuffle to deal to yourself. I found that took less time than the spellcasters trying to decide what to cast on their turn, but mileage will vary.

You can also control the randomness more at later levels with careful maneuver selection by picking similar maneuvers. If you really need healing, almost every single level of Devoted Spirit has something for you, for example. Since this is a multiclass character, there's another control knob. You can use Warblade levels to pick up some higher level maneuvers of the shared disciplines as a Crusader. You also get to decide which class gets the extra maneuvers from Eternal Blade at each level, too. That's a little in the weeds, and it's been years since I've looked at ToB multiclassing between multiple Martial Adept classes, but that's another part of the character building mini game to play.

[Piggy Knowles]

I think some of y'all are overthinking this. The eternal blade can grant maneuvers more or less on demand that you meet the prerequisites for, including Devoted Spirit maneuvers, several times a day via eternal training. Dipping crusader lets you meet the prereqs for these, giving you the opportunity to pick up high level Devoted Spirit stuff like greater divine surge and strike of righteous vitality, without really slowing down your warblade progression thanks to the way multiclassing works for ToB. Taking the crusader levels at those levels also lets you pick up the excellent thicket of blades stance with your second crusader stance.

EDIT: to clarify, you add your Devoted Spirit maneuvers from eternal blade to your warblade chassis, not your crusader chassis. Your effective crusader level being low doesn't really matter here. You have the requisite IL from warblade, and you know enough Devoted Spirit to have the pre-reqs down.

[Darg]

As other's have pointed out with the crusader levels, you get full BAB progression, +1 warblade IL, 5 extra maneuvers known on a separate automatic recovery, and +2 stances (which are scarce btw). Indomitable soul is just icing.

As for how to use it, it's about timing. The crusader levels can be used to qualify for eternal blade if you want to focus on other disciplines than diamond mind. You can also use the 1st level to bulk buy up a particularly good level of maneuvers or requirements for good maneuvers.

[Gorthawar]

If you add the granted maneuver from eternal blade to crusader you would end up getting all your crusader maneuvers refreshing every turn (idiot crusader). Also not mentioned yet a crusader level will give you proficiency with heavy armor.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Also not mentioned yet a crusader level will give you proficiency with heavy armor.Don't forget ranged weapons, which warblades don't get (aside from thrown melee weapons).

[Darg]

If you add the granted maneuver from eternal blade to crusader you would end up getting all your crusader maneuvers refreshing every turn (idiot crusader). Also not mentioned yet a crusader level will give you proficiency with heavy armor.

Eternal Blade does not grant you a granted maneuver on its own.

Page 96 of ToB tells you that you only get granted maneuvers if you apply the maneuvers readied to your crusader progression. Page 39 tells you that a multiclass character has access to maneuvers of a level appropriate to any of their classes. So in total, you can't run out of maneuvers to know if you go swordsage 1/warblade 1/crusader 1 nor can you separate gained readied maneuvers from granted.

You also aren't given permission to change class progressions every level as exemplified by spellcasting progressing PRCs which give explicit permission to change classes every level. This means you can't starve crusader with PRC known maneuvers either.

Idiot crusader simply does not work by RAW nor should someone think it's acceptable for use at a majority of tables.

[Brackenlord]

You also aren't given permission to change class progressions every level as exemplified by spellcasting progressing PRCs which give explicit permission to change classes every level. This means you can't starve crusader with PRC known maneuvers either.

Unlike spellcasting progression every level of the PRCs with maneuvers count as +1 initiator level for all your initiator classes.


Maneuvers Known:
When you gain additional maneuvers known, these simply add to the maneuvers known of one martial adept standard class you already possess.

Maneuvers Readied:
When indicated, you gain the ability to ready one or more additional martial maneuvers. If you have more than one martial maneuver progression, you must choose which progression the additional readied maneuver slot applies to. If you choose to add the maneuver readied to a martial maneuver progression derived from crusader class levels, you also gain one additional maneuver granted at the beginning of the encounter for each additional maneuver you can ready.

Recovery:
You retain the same recovery method or methods you already use. If you have levels in more than one martial adept class, you choose which recovery method you will use based on which adept class he new maneuver you are learning applies to. Once this choice is made, it cannot be changed.

I'm won't go into full idiot crusader discussion, but it seems pretty clear that one could funnel all PRC's maneuvers known on the Warblade side and increase the maneuvers readied on the Crusader side.
Wich is a nice way of almost guaranteeing you start each encounter with your best crusader maneuvers granted, by RAW you only ever get a pair of granted maneuvers when recovering in the middle of the encounter (three with Extra Granted Maneuver feat).

[Darg]

Unlike spellcasting progression every level of the PRCs with maneuvers count as +1 initiator level for all your initiator classes.



I'm won't go into full idiot crusader discussion, but it seems pretty clear that one could funnel all PRC's maneuvers known on the Warblade side and increase the maneuvers readied on the Crusader side.

Which is fine. I will point out that the descriptions only once mention choosing a class. If someone tries to go idiot crusader, I'll just tell them that they don't get to choose where their maneuvers known go.


Wich is a nice way of almost guaranteeing you start each encounter with your best crusader maneuvers granted, by RAW you only ever get a pair of granted maneuvers when recovering in the middle of the encounter (three with Extra Granted Maneuver feat).

Idiot crusader doesn't just guarantee starting an encounter with your best maneuvers, it ensures you never go without access to any of your crusader maneuvers as they get re-granted every round. As you get higher level, that means any maneuver you desire becomes usable every turn. It's what causes white raven tactics to become infinite.

You actually gain new granted maneuvers anytime you would gain a new readied maneuvers. So you should always have 3-2 un-granted maneuvers at any one time.

[Godofallu]

Initiator classes are best taken as dips really late in a build. Because all of the levels before them grant 1/2 an initiator level. At lvl 9 (8 levels before the dip) a crusader or swordsage ect hits the magic lvl 3 maneuvers. Think like a wizard with spell levels at 1,3,5, ect. The lvl 3 has white raven tactics and fantastic stances ect.

So Warblade 8/Crusdaer 2 is actually pretty smart. 5 levels of Crusader casting for nonstop bonus abilities on that side plus the crusader base abilities like steely resolve/furious counterstrike and indomitable soul.

You do lose a bonus Warblade feat and 1 maneuver known and readied and 1 stance.

[Rebel7284]

- At level 20 you end up with Warblade Initiator level 19 and Crusader initiator level 16 so that's pretty helpful! Gotta love the whole TOB classes advancing ALL initiator levels thing.
- You get to chose which maneuvers are important to refresh automatically and which ones will use the Warblade method. As mentioned before this potentially allows you to have a handful of maneuvers available EVERY turns if you want.
- All you really give up is a Warblade bonus feat and Warblade initiator level is 1 lower, which will result in one or two maneuvers being picked up later, but again, you're getting double progression in return and all the side benefits that folks mentioned.

[Gorthawar]

- All you really give up is a Warblade bonus feat and Warblade initiator level is 1 lower, which will result in one or two maneuvers being picked up later, but again, you're getting double progression in return and all the side benefits that folks mentioned.

Another downside is that if you dip into Crusader you do not get to pick an 8th level stance at level 15.

[Brackenlord]

Idiot crusader doesn't just guarantee starting an encounter with your best maneuvers, it ensures you never go without access to any of your crusader maneuvers as they get re-granted every round. As you get higher level, that means any maneuver you desire becomes usable every turn. It's what causes white raven tactics to become infinite.

Yeah, assuming the TO part even works to begin with (wich I don't agree since knowing less than 5 maneuvers is pretty nebulous stuff).

Dipping Crusader at 9th level (initiator level 8/2+1) and keeping readied maneuvers forever at 5(2) or 5(3) is a nice bit of practical optimization.

Encounter begins, with EGM feat 5(3):
1st • Draw 3 from 5 card maneuver deck, 40% chance of not drawing White Raven Tactics;
2nd • Draw 4th, 20% chance of not drawing WRT;
3rd • Guaranteed WRT;
4th • Begins anew.

By increasing the number of readied maneuvers and granted at the beginning of encounter the chance of opening with any one great maneuver increases, but when they refresh at the 4th turn you are only granted 2~3 new and it will take longer for the 2nd refresh.
In normal circurstances, encounters don't ever go that long but I think it's an interesting tidbit.

[Darg]

Yeah, assuming the TO part even works to begin with (wich I don't agree since knowing less than 5 maneuvers is pretty nebulous stuff).

Dipping Crusader at 9th level (initiator level 8/2+1) and keeping readied maneuvers forever at 5(2) or 5(3) is a nice bit of practical optimization.

Encounter begins, with EGM feat 5(3):
1st • Draw 3 from 5 card maneuver deck, 40% chance of not drawing White Raven Tactics;
2nd • Draw 4th, 20% chance of not drawing WRT;
3rd • Guaranteed WRT;
4th • Begins anew.

By increasing the number of readied maneuvers and granted at the beginning of encounter the chance of opening with any one great maneuver increases, but when they refresh at the 4th turn you are only granted 2~3 new and it will take longer for the 2nd refresh.
In normal circurstances, encounters don't ever go that long but I think it's an interesting tidbit.

Increasing readied maneuvers actually increases your chances of having the maneuver you want:

5(2)= 40%
5(3)= 60%
8(5)= 62.5%
8(6)= 75%

As such, Master of Nine is one is my favorite PRCs for a crusader focused progression for that reason with a 10(8) giving an 80% chance even with the ridiculous feat tax making it a difficult entry.