Party too strong

[Ralakos]

Hello everyone,

I am have been DMing for not very long, about a year. So what happened in two of my campaigns is that my players visited White Plume Mountain, and they got the legendaries from there.
At that point i didn't realize how strong they are, especially Blackrazor that both my parties use.
Right now i am trying to find the sweet spot to lower their power because the campaign's enemies are obsolete.

For this reason, i have used one big bad boss i have found around, and i have set up an encounter that is very hard for the parties to defeat.
I have a boss/god (Cyphus, King of the Undying) that is challenge rating 26, can summon a ****load of undead and can kill players easily. My initial thought was to focus on killing the players that are using Blackrazor (bring them below 100, use power word kill as a power show off), get if from their corpse and then run away.
On second thought, i thought i might kill the whole party, steal their most imbalanced gear (the party has 5 legendaries equipped, including Blackrazor, Robe of the Archmagi and Rod of Resurrection, yes i know i was very bad in distributing loot), revive them by NPCs in a temple or something and make a soft reset of their power in general.

My question is, would that be too much of a hit against the party's morale? What is the best course of action to get back into normal levels of power?
People don't want to lose their shinies.
My options right now are :
1)Have the boss stay out of the fight, just use him to kill one of the players steal Blackrazor and run away
2)Have the boss fight alongside with his undead, kill the whole party and steal an iteam from each
3)Have the boss stay out of the fight, and if they defeat his undead he leaves and promises to get them another time, leaving them with their loot as they are now. If they are defeated by the undead, they lose an item or two.

You are more than welcome to suggest other courses of actions!

Thank you in advance,

Your noob DM

[EggKookoo]

Classic new DM mistake. Don't beat yourself up over it. Happens to everyone at some point.

Regarding Blackrazor, you could have some big bad want it (now that it's been retrieved from the mountain) and sends his legion of undead assassins after the PC that's carrying it. Blackrazor is worse than useless against undead. Also remember the player doesn't get to cast haste with it. You do (playing the sword), when you feel it's appropriate. And the sword isn't going to be generous with it if the player hasn't been feeding it souls. As the DM, you can also make the sword stingy if the PC isn't acting at least kind of chaotic neutral from time to time, although that's not a strict requirement.

And don't forget that temp HP don't stack.

[Kuulvheysoon]

You could also defeat them out of combat.

Have the BBEG hold a village/city hostage unless they surrender the blade. If they give up the blade, then they've got a reason to want the BBEG dead, and they're now (even more) personally motivated.

If they refuse and kill the BBEG... well, they've got to live with that on their conscience. Make sure to pepper the rest of the story with accounts of how honorable the BBEG was, proof that he would have kept his word.

EggKookoo's also got an excellent point about how Blackrazor is explicitly an intelligent item that you, the DM, control. 3.5E had more concrete rules about this sort of thing, but if the wielder isn't going along with their agenda, why would they want to stay with them or use their abilities on their behalf?

[Lupine]

I’ve been there. I gave my players a random broom of flying, and then watched as they trivialized many of my encounters, since I didn’t like running magic enemies.

My advice is as follows:
[1] Run higher level monsters. Magic items make players a LOT more resistant to monsters, and allow them many options to “turn the tide.” Because of this, you can horribly stack the deck against them, and still have a fair fight, especially if you telegraph that you’re doing this. (For example, enemies shouting, “We have to give the <evil guy> more time to prepare!”) This lets the players know they’ll be walking to a death trap, prepare for that, and also clue them to respond
[2] have enemies use antimagic abilities, or prepare their rituals at the edge of a dead magic zone, forcing the players to fight their way through a non magic dungeon, before fighting the ritual under heavy magic interference. And, bonus points, if they figure out the areas where their magic works, they’re gonna move there. Perfect positioning for a circle of death or high level fireball, but you didn’t hear that from me….

[Ralakos]

I read one suggestion and implemented it :
Blackrazor is not in its full potential. Its a +2 weapons instead of +3, it grands half hit points instead of full on kill, and one of its magical properties is inactive.
On the other side, the character has a quest to absorb a total of 2000 HP with its ability, and in every fight there is one enemy that the sword wants and on death it gives the full hit point bonus as temporary hitpoints, counting towards the 2000 requirement of the quest, which will unlock its full power when completed.

The problem is that the parties are TOO powerful. Players have min maxed, their items are very powerful and the encounters they face are very easy. I have started to create custom encounters, but its getting tiring along the way to change the whole adventure.

We are playing on roll20 btw, one party is on Rise Of Tiamat and the other one is still playing Tales of the Yawning Portal

[Keravath]

It is a very common new DM mistake so don't feel bad about it.

You also don't mention what level your party is - if they are tier 4 (I guess not) then Legendary items might be expected. If they are tier 2 which is the suggested levels for WPM then the weapons become a problem. However, you mention that the characters have over 100 hit points - a fighter with 16 con should only have 94 hit points at level 10 - 18 con would make this 104 which is only just over 100. You make it sound like some effort to get them down to 100 hit points - so I am wondering if there are other new DM elements going on like very high stats or giving out max hit points for each level (or allowing so many re-rolls that they are close to max). If the party is mid tier 3 then these items are only a bit early in terms of levels.

There are several solutions.

1) Have a discussion with the players. Explain that the Legendary magic items are way overpowered for their level in the game and that in order to balance things out a bit they have to be removed until the characters are an appropriate level. In game, the characters could hear that powerful forces are looking for these legendary items and that the characters learn they are hopelessly outmatched - if they want to try to hold on to them, then the powerful forces that want them will take them from the dead hands of the adventurers. Perhaps the knowledge comes to them from the Harpers or another organization that is interested in making sure that these "forces" do not obtain the weapons but who are also honorable enough to hide the weapons for the players rather than just take them for themselves. You could add a side quest related to hiding the items with a bait and switch encounter where the bad guys realize that the characters no longer have the weapons and do NOT know where they can be found. (If the characters hide them then the bad guys will not be kind in obtaining the information about where these legendary items have been hidden).

However, you have to make it clear to the players that this is a side effect of a weak party having items far above their level and that there are much stronger enemies who will just come and take them AND have the players understand that hiding them for later use when they reach level 17 and can properly protect the items is their best route.

---

#1 is probably the best approach

2) Bump the character levels to a point where the items are appropriate - this isn't much fun since it is much more enjoyable to play level 7->17 than it is to suddenly be bumped to that level.

3) Your scenario where a powerful force succeeds in removing all the legendary items from the party. This can make characters unhappy and with the power of the items involved it requires very powerful enemies that will likely kill off the characters requiring them to be resurrected. I prefer approach #1 where the characters/players know there are powerful enemies coming for them that they can not defeat and the DM needs to make it absolutely clear that if the party doesn't hide the items until they are powerful enough to resist these forces then the characters will die.

4) Bump up the power of all opponents that the characters face in the adventure. This requires quite a bit of work but the DM can do this to compensate for powerful items. However, you mentioned both the legendary weapons and the staff of magi which give very effective single target and AoE options. You may need to oppose the players with enemy spellcasters and watch them start failing saves against tier 3 or 4 creatures with DCs of 17-21 with their tier 2 proficiency and stats. There are options you can explore here if this approach has any appeal.

[Ralakos]

It is a very common new DM mistake so don't feel bad about it.

You also don't mention what level your party is - if they are tier 4 (I guess not) then Legendary items might be expected.

They are level 10 and 11
Fighter has 118 HP, but i have to go through his temporary hitpoints, which most of the time are above 50 :(

[Lupine]

The problem is that the partis is TOO powerful. Players have min maxed, they items are very powerful and the encounters they face are a very easy. I have started to create custom encounters, but its getting tiring along the way to change the whole adventure.

Aach! Now you post that.
Ok. So. If you’re running a module, and don’t want to change it, then you’re out of luck. You either have to run with what’s given, or alter it yourself. Kinda sucks, but thems the breaks. It’s too late now, but this is the primary argument against published adventures.

But ultimately, ask the players if they’re having fun. “It’s too easy” is something that is almost exclusively a DM concern. The players could be having a BLAST beating the crap out of monsters.

[noob]

You can describe the fact they steamroll all the opponents until the end of the adventure and how it acquired them a huge reputation and that now they caught the attention of more powerful people and will now face higher challenges for more epic quests and switch to another adventure with bigger monsters.

[Gignere]

Aach! Now you post that.
Ok. So. If you’re running a module, and don’t want to change it, then you’re out of luck. You either have to run with what’s given, or alter it yourself. Kinda sucks, but thems the breaks. It’s too late now, but this is the primary argument against published adventures.

But ultimately, ask the players if they’re having fun. “It’s too easy” is something that is almost exclusively a DM concern. The players could be having a BLAST beating the crap out of monsters.

An easy way to adjust preexisting adventures module encounters is by adding more monsters in the encounters and/or adding more hps to the monsters. You may have to experiment a bit but you can get it to the point where it is still challenging the group.

[EggKookoo]

An easy way to adjust preexisting adventures module encounters is by adding more monsters in the encounters and/or adding more hps to the monsters. You may have to experiment a bit but you can get it to the point where it is still challenging the group.

Replying to reinforce this. It's something of a DM cheat/loophole. You can increase the difficulty of a fight significantly without affecting the XP you award. Max out HP, and add more creatures of individually low CR. Take into consideration how many attacks your party gets (like, a fighter with 2 Extra Attacks counts as 2), and aim to outnumber that with the number of attacks the monsters can make. It'll make your fights drag out longer but it might be the price you have to pay.

[Ralakos]

An easy way to adjust preexisting adventures module encounters is by adding more monsters in the encounters and/or adding more hps to the monsters. You may have to experiment a bit but you can get it to the point where it is still challenging the group.

One interesting solution i am using so far is increasing the CR of normal monsters. I use an import function that allows me to set the CR of a monster and it will scale it automatically, for example i bumbed up some Ice trolls from CR 5 to CR 9 and it was much more interesting of a fight. But at the same time it feel unnatural for a Troll to hit so hard..

In general it seems that you people are kinda against seperating the party from their legendaries and i should change the encounters.

[EggKookoo]

One interesting solution i am using so far is increasing the CR of normal monsters. I use an import function that allows me to set the CR of a monster and it will scale it automatically, for example i bumbed up some Ice trolls from CR 5 to CR 9 and it was much more interesting of a fight. But at the same time it feel unnatural for a Troll to hit so hard.

The problem with just increasing the CR is that you also increase the XP, which causes the PCs to level that much faster, possibly exacerbating the issue.

[Kuulvheysoon]

The problem with just increasing the CR is that you also increase the XP, which causes the PCs to level that much faster, possibly exacerbating the issue.

I mean, it's not an Official Adventurer's League game. Just use milestone leveling? If the players complain, say that you're scaling the adventures (and experience) to their actual capabilities, not their baseline capabilities.

[MrStabby]

I don't know these adventures - but is there a way you could skip ahead? Take some shortcuts?

If you do, your players will be lower level at the tougher fights. If this still doesn't work then you have still managed to cut down the time you spend on a campaign that it sounds like you are not enjoying.

[quindraco]

Blackrazor is a sapient weapon. If it's proving to be problematic, have it place greater and greater demands on its bearer - for example, maybe it desires a new flavor of soul and sends its bearer after humanoids under a year old, or humanoids that are sufficiently narcissistic, or humanoids whose favorite color is vibrant yellow. Basically, keep on making it more and more obnoxious until the party ditches it.

[Veldrenor]

They are level 10 and 11
Fighter has 118 HP, but i have to go through his temporary hitpoints, which most of the time are above 50 :(

The fighter has 50+ temporary hit points now, but he needs to use Blackrazor to kill a living creature in order to replenish them. Ranged attacks, hit-and-run tactics, enemies with a self-preservation instinct, constructs, and undead can deal with that problem right quick.

Or just use time: the temporary hit points only last for 24 hours and Blackrazor gets real cranky if you go 3 days without a kill. If it takes the party a week to get to the next adventure location then there are going to be problems. Blackrazor wants to consume souls and doesn't care whose it eats. If its wielder can't keep it fed, well, then it'll just have to eat one of their party members now won't it?

[da newt]

Balance is an art. Your parties are more powerful than the published adventure is designed for, so you get to figure out how to restore balance. Most Players will resent having their toys taken, so I'd recommend against that.

You can tweek the power of the legendary weapons by giving them a limited number of uses so that they are a resource that will eventually run out, this way the Players will have to choose when to use the power and when to conserve the resource. (Remember that temp hp do not last over a long rest - start every day at 0)

You can boost your bad guys - increase hp by 50% or 100%, double the number of attacks they get or the damage per attack, or increase the number of bad guys, and don't feel bad about it at all. If the challenges are too easy, they aren't challenges, and they aren't interesting for the Players.

Explain your balance issue with your Players and ask them for suggestions - people who are involved in the decisions to change tend to be much more onboard with those changes.

[Zhorn]

In general it seems that you people are kinda against seperating the party from their legendaries and i should change the encounters.
It really comes down to the reason why you would be trying to separate characters from magic items. be they legendaries or just common rarity.
Trying to take them away because YOU as the DM don't want them to have them? Yeah, that can come across as bad form and may lead to player resentment if done so for that sole reason.
It may have been a mistake on your party handing them out (an honest mistake and a valuable learning experience) and owning our mistakes comes with the territory of being DMs.

Now if you don't want to go the route of adjusting encounters to better match the party's current level of power and still want to remove the items, make sure you go about it in a way that makes sense in the game world and feels fair to the players.


My initial thought was to focus on killing the players that are using Blackrazor (bring them below 100, use power word kill as a power show off), get if from their corpse and then run away.
On second thought, i thought i might kill the whole party, steal their most imbalanced gear (the party has 5 legendaries equipped, including Blackrazor, Robe of the Archmagi and Rod of Resurrection, yes i know i was very bad in distributing loot), revive them by NPCs in a temple or something and make a soft reset of their power in general.
^ this mindset right here is setting off a whole lot of red flags. Being DM give you a whole lot of power, while the players are bound by the rules and limitations you impose on them. It doesn't matter what they are capable of, if you decide they are going to loose, they will lose, and then it's not a game worth playing.

YOUR goal is not to kill the players
YOUR goal is not to wipe the party
YOUR goal is not to take away their treasure

Focus instead on making storylines or challenges for the players where it is believable and understandable why NPCs are wanting to do those things.
And most importantly, play them fair.
Don't gang up on a specific PC unless it makes sense within the scene the players are in and is justifiable from that NPCs perspective.
Don't bring to bear more power than what makes sense for the story and the actors involved.

A big bad showing up 'just because' that is more powerful than the party, perfectly suited to countering the party, and is only introduced for the sole purpose of beating the party and taking their stuff?
This does not sound like a good time as it is only telling your players that all their hard earned levels and equipment mean nothing.

[Joe the Rat]

Of the three, Wave is the most difficult to curtail, beyond that it's most effective when trapping the wielder with a few meanies.

Whelm is relatively benign, but its user gets seriously hamstrung when fighting out-of-doors. On my deliberately overblown game, I actually gave its wielder a hat to overcome his agoraphobic issues.

Blackrazor will be seriously flummoxed by undead. Having a villain that is deliberately sending bogeys after the party on a semi-regular basis will slow him down a bit. On the outside, you also need to kill something with a soul on a regular basis. That will enhance your reputation in a dark way.

So a graveyard fight with intelligent undead that use the same attack format as the Wave wielder will be a challenge for those three.


But my recommendation is since you have over-the-top items for everyone, see if they are ready to go for high stakes and ramp up the difficulty. Move to the endgame. Go full gonzo. Push until everything breaks, then start a new campaign.

[meandean]

One interesting solution i am using so far is increasing the CR of normal monsters. I use an import function that allows me to set the CR of a monster and it will scale it automatically, for example i bumbed up some Ice trolls from CR 5 to CR 9 and it was much more interesting of a fight. But at the same time it feel unnatural for a Troll to hit so hard..

In general it seems that you people are kinda against seperating the party from their legendaries and i should change the encounters.I'm at least against simply taking them away without having an OOC discussion about it first. That's one option that you have.

Otherwise, you can try to finagle a situation where they give them up voluntarily. But note that, no matter how much sense it might make sense to you that your situation should convince them, they still may not do it. Also note that, if you do this and it doesn't work and you move on to some other scheme to remove the weapons, it's gonna be obvious to the party that the adventure has now become about the DM trying to figure out a way to get rid of their weapons. That'll probably feel even worse than if you just took them.

Or, there are ways to emphasize the magical/intelligent properties of the weapons in ways that are inconvenient, or at least less consistently useful, for the players. That can be done carelessly, in such a way that basically amounts to taking away the weapons without saying it. But it also can be done in a fair way that makes sense storywise, because the weapons do, after all, have those characteristics. There are some good ideas regarding that here.

And/or, go ahead and run much tougher fights. You can either change the description of the main adversaries so they're not "the same thing" as in the Monster Manual, or just don't even worry about it, these are just the ice trolls to end all ice trolls. As a player, I would way more enjoy that than adding a bunch more useless mooks to encounters.

[Ralakos]

Just an update for the situation :
I let the party be teleported in an unknown Plane, they thought it was the Shadowfell so i went for it.
I had an NPC that made SUPER clear that his is all powerful, like a god of the dead and souls or something, and he asked back what he thought was his "The souls absorbed by Blackrazor".
That particular homebrew NPC i found had powerful artifacts, like Wand of Orcus, and he summoned a whole bunch of undead to attack the party and strip them from Blackrazor.
He would stay on top of the rocks, watching the battle with superiority, as fighting him would be totally helpless.

Well, guess what, the party thought they could kill him and charged at him. After a couple of rounds they got the hint that he is not winnable and just gave Blackrazor up quickly.
Discussing it after the end of the session i told them that if they would defeat the undead they could stay with the Blackrazor as they rightfully defended it, and they said that we have been talking for weeks about how powerful it is and they thought it would be better to give up.

So the party's strength is a bit lower now, and we are moving forward to out next adventure :)

Thank you for assisting me!

[Sigreid]

Are you making full use of the down sides of those items? If I remember right they're actually kind of a pain to own.

[Ralakos]

Are you making full use of the down sides of those items? If I remember right they're actually kind of a pain to own.

Yes i do but it is minimal, character has to kill something every 3 days, an easy thing to do.

[Sigreid]

Yes i do but it is minimal, character has to kill something every 3 days, an easy thing to do.

But is it always encouraging him to kill? Blackrazor it's obviously a Stormbringer knock off, it should always be trying to get the player to give it more blood at even the slightest excuse.

[Mastikator]

DON'T TRY TO COMPENSATE OR FIX THIS PROBLEM!!!

Let the party be too strong. Allow them to roflstomp through the BBEG and win the campaign with ease. They will enjoy the heck out of it and enjoy feeling powerful. They've already won in essence and if you try to take that away from them now then they will only taste bitterness. D&D is all about that power fantasy, let them feel powerful and live out their power fantasy.

Then start a new campaign with new characters and don't make the same mistake. This time tell them it's not going to be as easy, after crushing a campaign they will want a challenge.

[KorvinStarmast]

Blackrazor it's obviously a Stormbringer knock off, it should always be trying to get the player to give it more blood at even the slightest excuse. Yeah, however some players hate the loss of agency that a sentient being / sentient weapon presents to them.

[Sigreid]

Yeah, however some players hate the loss of agency that a sentient being / sentient weapon presents to them.

Yes, but that's the price of a sentient item. That's actually why when I'm the player I refuse to use them. At all. Ever. To the point where I left one stuck in the ground on the shore of a river.

[DwarfFighter]

DON'T TRY TO COMPENSATE OR FIX THIS PROBLEM!!!

Let the party be too strong. Allow them to roflstomp through the BBEG and win the campaign with ease. They will enjoy the heck out of it and enjoy feeling powerful. They've already won in essence and if you try to take that away from them now then they will only taste bitterness. D&D is all about that power fantasy, let them feel powerful and live out their power fantasy.

Then start a new campaign with new characters and don't make the same mistake. This time tell them it's not going to be as easy, after crushing a campaign they will want a challenge.

Worst advice I've seen yet.

For all the talk of agency and player enjoyment, there is one unavoidable truth: If the DM isn't having fun there is no game.

Sure, the players should have fun too. That's the ideal scenario that often requires a bit of give-and-take. Where the DM and players aren't in alignment on what's the best way to any thee needs to be compromises, but the breaking point of the DM is a hard break for the game.

Players don't like to hear this, but they are ultimately expendable. A dissatisfied player can pick up his things and leave, and there is at least a chance that the game survives. Unhappy DM? No chance, the game is dead.

So OP raises the issue that his PCs are too strong. If he thinks he needs to fix that, then fix it he must.

[NorthernPhoenix]

Worst advice I've seen yet.

For all the talk of agency and player enjoyment, there is one unavoidable truth: If the DM isn't having fun there is no game.

Sure, the players should have fun too. That's the ideal scenario that often requires a bit of give-and-take. Where the DM and players aren't in alignment on what's the best way to any thee needs to be compromises, but the breaking point of the DM is a hard break for the game.

Players don't like to hear this, but they are ultimately expendable. A dissatisfied player can pick up his things and leave, and there is at least a chance that the game survives. Unhappy DM? No chance, the game is dead.

So OP raises the issue that his PCs are too strong. If he thinks he needs to fix that, then fix it he must.

For sure, i agree completely. The kind of take you're referring to completely ignore the DMs enjoyment in the game, as if the DM is payed to be there and obligated to suffer through whatever (and if you are being payed to DM, good for you! You'll be be fine, I'm sure.)

[Mastikator]

For sure, i agree completely. The kind of take you're referring to completely ignore the DMs enjoyment in the game, as if the DM is payed to be there and obligated to suffer through whatever (and if you are being payed to DM, good for you! You'll be be fine, I'm sure.)

There's got to be something more to DMing than killing PCs. Hmm.. Maybe challenges that can not be overcome with violence like intrigue or puzzles or exploration or solving murder mysteries.

The DM is not the player's enemies and the DM's only source of joy is not fighting the PCs with ever bigger monsters. Honestly this idea that if the players get to live out their power fantasy and defeat monsters then the DM isn't having fun is pretty toxic. Eventually the players will find it boring too and may ask for a bigger challenge, that's when you fast track them to the BBEG who's way over-CR for the party and then begin the next campaign.

[Boci]

Yes, but that's the price of a sentient item. That's actually why when I'm the player I refuse to use them. At all. Ever. To the point where I left one stuck in the ground on the shore of a river.

And there we have why this can be a bad idea. Because now "powerful sentient item" is basically "cursed". You may as well not have in the game, if the party will just ignore it. It removes options rather than expanding on them.

[NorthernPhoenix]

There's got to be something more to DMing than killing PCs. Hmm.. Maybe challenges that can not be overcome with violence like intrigue or puzzles or exploration or solving murder mysteries.

The DM is not the player's enemies and the DM's only source of joy is not fighting the PCs with ever bigger monsters. Honestly this idea that if the players get to live out their power fantasy and defeat monsters then the DM isn't having fun is pretty toxic. Eventually the players will find it boring too and may ask for a bigger challenge, that's when you fast track them to the BBEG who's way over-CR for the party and then begin the next campaign.

I don't think it's about "killing PCs" (or even "winning" against players) at all, just about setting up cool challenges that are not negated or steamrolled. I agree that the DM is not the players enemy, which is why my goal is simply to set up situations that ultimately look cool. And to me, challenges being negated, invalidated, or steam-rolled are not that. My perfect boss fight is one that will never win, but also never go down without a proper fight. To me, heroes can be cool without being "overpowered", and if someone disagrees and can only feel powerful if they are completely overpowered, then we certainly have a conflict playstyles.

[Boci]

I don't think it's about "killing PCs" (or even "winning" against players) at all, just about setting up cool challenges that are not negated or steamrolled. I agree that the DM is not the players enemy, which is why my goal is simply to set up situations that ultimately look cool. And to me, challenges being negated, invalidated, or steam-rolled are not that. My perfect boss fight is one that will never win, but also never go down without a proper fight.

Arguable though steamrolling a boss battle is the coolest possible outcome, provided it only happens once. There's going to be plenty of bosses for regular players, so that one time it wasn't even a challenge, will likely stick out as they look back at the various ones they've fought.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

An easy way to adjust preexisting adventures module encounters is by adding more monsters in the encounters and/or adding more hps to the monsters. You may have to experiment a bit but you can get it to the point where it is still challenging the group.

This isn't too far off what I'd suggest. Personally I find it easier to to add tougher monsters rather than more in most cases just for ease of handling. I'm now halving the XP for all monsters when I DM because I find the situation you are describing the norm, and if I just add tougher monsters the party levels too fast. With the power creep in the newer books the situation has gotten worse, particularly if you're playing through older mods.
This solution has allowed me to:
1) challenge the players
2) keep leveling at a reasonable pace
3) keep some good magic items in the game (this comes from our background in 2e so players like magic items)
4) free up space to give out some XP for role playing, puzzle solving, ect.

[Sigreid]

And there we have why this can be a bad idea. Because now "powerful sentient item" is basically "cursed". You may as well not have in the game, if the party will just ignore it. It removes options rather than expanding on them.

Plenty of people like them. Those who are willing to build a symbiotic relationship with the item, for example. I don't use them, and my DMs know that. Other people in the party have used and enjoyed them. Blackrazor is basically a pain for anyone with a moral code. Lands in the hands of someone who is a psychopath anyway? Why they're just two happy peas in a pod.

[Boci]

Plenty of people like them. Those who are willing to build a symbiotic relationship with the item, for example. I don't use them, and my DMs know that. Other people in the party have used and enjoyed them. Blackrazor is basically a pain for anyone with a moral code. Lands in the hands of someone who is a psychopath anyway? Why they're just two happy peas in a pod.

Yes, but if your group doesn't like them that that's a good reason not to do that.

And in this particular case, adding that after several sessions is a bit late, and some players will dislike the bait and switch. Its probably better to talk to the players OOC, rather than out of the blue have blackrazor acting up, when until now it was largely silent.

[Sigreid]

Yes, but if your group doesn't like them that that's a good reason not to do that.

And in this particular case, adding that after several sessions is a bit late, and some players will dislike the bait and switch. Its probably better to talk to the players OOC, rather than out of the blue have blackrazor acting up, when until now it was largely silent.

Even back in 1e I never thought the weapons from that module were a good addition to the game.

[DwarfFighter]

I'm now halving the XP for all monsters when I DM because I find the situation you are describing the norm, and if I just add tougher monsters the party levels too fast. With the power creep in the newer books the situation has gotten worse, particularly if you're playing through older mods.


I agree!

I am not the opinion that the designers had a good understanding of what they were doing, so the basic game is balanced as intended. Overall, Players Characters contribute evenly to the party's success, the CR allocation is appropriate for building challenging encounters for them. And that is the base-line for a fun game: level-appropriate challenges and challenge-appropriate rewards.

The main things that skew the game balance:

Not using the standard array for ability scores. Standard array makes for very similar first level characters, but you are going to be picking up ability score increases that have actual meaning as you each grow into your roles. The standard array leaves your character room to grow and have something to reach for for several levels of advancement.

Optimizing your character. You can't have it both ways, a character that is powerful beyond his level and still gets challenged by level-appropriate challenges. You've put yourself in the situation where you are absolutely dominating in fourth grade, but you are not mature enough for fifth grade. I blame multi classing for this, I would not allow it in a game I care about.

Frivolous rewards. Giving the PCs rewards that are game-breaking is all on the DM. Now the PCs can all fly. They are too rich to bother with contracts from the Thieves Guild. Their AC is so high they can't even hit themselves. You should have known better!

Loot. The first encounter you have with an NPC in full plate is the last encounter the fighter isn't wearing full plate. Congratulations DM, you just played yourself.

[noob]

I agree!

I am not the opinion that the designers had a good understanding of what they were doing, so the basic game is balanced as intended. Overall, Players Characters contribute evenly to the party's success, the CR allocation is appropriate for building challenging encounters for them. And that is the base-line for a fun game: level-appropriate challenges and challenge-appropriate rewards.

The main things that skew the game balance:

Not using the standard array for ability scores. Standard array makes for very similar first level characters, but you are going to be picking up ability score increases that have actual meaning as you each grow into your roles. The standard array leaves your character room to grow and have something to reach for for several levels of advancement.

Optimizing your character. You can't have it both ways, a character that is powerful beyond his level and still gets challenged by level-appropriate challenges. You've put yourself in the situation where you are absolutely dominating in fourth grade, but you are not mature enough for fifth grade. I blame multi classing for this, I would not allow it in a game I care about.

Frivolous rewards. Giving the PCs rewards that are game-breaking is all on the DM. Now the PCs can all fly. They are too rich to bother with contracts from the Thieves Guild. Their AC is so high they can't even hit themselves. You should have known better!

Loot. The first encounter you have with an NPC in full plate is the last encounter the fighter isn't wearing full plate. Congratulations DM, you just played yourself.

And full plate is not even the strongest defensive option for fighters.(dex based armour is the best armour especially since it is associated with higher initiative)

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I agree!

I am not the opinion that the designers had a good understanding of what they were doing, so the basic game is balanced as intended. Overall, Players Characters contribute evenly to the party's success, the CR allocation is appropriate for building challenging encounters for them. And that is the base-line for a fun game: level-appropriate challenges and challenge-appropriate rewards.

The main things that skew the game balance:

Not using the standard array for ability scores. Standard array makes for very similar first level characters, but you are going to be picking up ability score increases that have actual meaning as you each grow into your roles. The standard array leaves your character room to grow and have something to reach for for several levels of advancement.

Optimizing your character. You can't have it both ways, a character that is powerful beyond his level and still gets challenged by level-appropriate challenges. You've put yourself in the situation where you are absolutely dominating in fourth grade, but you are not mature enough for fifth grade. I blame multi classing for this, I would not allow it in a game I care about.

Frivolous rewards. Giving the PCs rewards that are game-breaking is all on the DM. Now the PCs can all fly. They are too rich to bother with contracts from the Thieves Guild. Their AC is so high they can't even hit themselves. You should have known better!

Loot. The first encounter you have with an NPC in full plate is the last encounter the fighter isn't wearing full plate. Congratulations DM, you just played yourself.

I think my summary would be more that the game was always so tilted in favor of the players in 5e that it can be pushed over the edge by very little, including just good party composition and intelligent play.
At least one of the published adventures I've DMed has a suit of Plate Mail at first level, though I can't particularly say this in itself was game breaking. The player who put it on manage to get himself into an attic with a bunch of stirges and get himself killed while still 1st level; that's the only death we've had in numerous 5e campaigns.
As for standard array vs point buy, it's usually worth +1 to a secondary or tertiary ability on most characters vs the 4th ability. Again hardly game breaking, if the game is balanced to start with. "Rolling" where players start with more than point buy and can start adding feats immediately is a different story.
So far as multi-classing vs straight, yes there are a couple of dips where it's beneficial and probably cheezy (Ahem, Hexblade). However, the strongest characters we've had have generally been single classed casters, and with some of the new subclasses this has gotten more pronounced.
Single classed Shepherd Druid is the only character I've DMed that was clearly game breaking by himself (though a couple of the new Clerics look similar). While the other characters got some very strong items in Descent into Avernus, there wasn't much in the mod for a Druid. Given that he was worth at least 1 1/2 of the other characters I didn't feel the need to change that, so he finished at level 13 with a couple of potions I think.
Anyway it's really not that that tough to deal with. As my fellow DM said when we were early tier 2: "Every time it says Hobgoblin I just replace it with Bone Devil". Just remember to halve the XP and it will all be ok.

[Boci]

Even back in 1e I never thought the weapons from that module were a good addition to the game.

As in, blackrazor? I've heard complaints about the balance of that before, but you said weapons, are there's others beside blackrazor?

[Sigreid]

Blackrazor, Wave and I think just one other. Been a while.

[Boci]

Blackrazor, Wave and I think just one other. Been a while.

Yeah it seems Blackrazor is a frequent problem it seems, which may be the modules fault, or unprepared DMs (though you could argue its the modules fault if it doesn't adequately prepare the DM).

So, you could remove the weapon, if the module isn't dependant on it. Or nerf it to just be a cool sword. So, +1 longsword, with a slightly better version of the necromancer or fiendish warlocks ability gain some temproary hitpoints when you kill an enemy, and maybe gain an extra attack with advantage if you crit an enemy. Then the personality aspects of the sword could be dropped, or be very minor.

Alternatively, the sword needs to be roleplayed as a sentient thing from the moment the players find it, not after several sessions when the DM realises its really strong, to avoid making the players feel like they've been baited and switched.

Or finally, as a poster in this thread noted, the DM can simply accept that once their players get the sword, the remaining fights likely won't be too hard.

Any of these 3 solutions can work, but all of them will require the DM to be prepared to implement them, and plan the campaign around it.

[Sigreid]

Yeah it seems Blackrazor is a frequent problem it seems, which may be the modules fault, or unprepared DMs (though you could argue its the modules fault if it doesn't adequately prepare the DM).

So, you could remove the weapon, if the module isn't dependant on it. Or nerf it to just be a cool sword. So, +1 longsword, with a slightly better version of the necromancer or fiendish warlocks ability gain some temproary hitpoints when you kill an enemy, and maybe gain an extra attack with advantage if you crit an enemy. Then the personality aspects of the sword could be dropped, or be very minor.

Alternatively, the sword needs to be roleplayed as a sentient thing from the moment the players find it, not after several sessions when the DM realises its really strong, to avoid making the players feel like they've been baited and switched.

Or finally, as a poster in this thread noted, the DM can simply accept that once their players get the sword, the remaining fights likely won't be too hard.

Any of these 3 solutions can work, but all of them will require the DM to be prepared to implement them, and plan the campaign around it.

The way it's written, you are supposed to retrieve and surrender the weapons for your reward. I believe the module actually made it clear that trying to keep the weapons would lead to a concerted effort to get them and punish the party.

[RandomPeasant]

Arguable though steamrolling a boss battle is the coolest possible outcome, provided it only happens once. There's going to be plenty of bosses for regular players, so that one time it wasn't even a challenge, will likely stick out as they look back at the various ones they've fought.

PCs should have the opportunity to feel powerful. It gets boring if it happens every single time, but if it doesn't happen at all the game can feel like you're running in place. Let the players finish out the adventure punching slightly above their weight. Then reassess and make the next adventure more challenging. Or better yet, see if you can get them to organically realize that they're powerful, then go off and pursue more difficult challenges (and the corresponding larger rewards) on their own.


I think my summary would be more that the game was always so tilted in favor of the players in 5e that it can be pushed over the edge by very little, including just good party composition and intelligent play.

Bounded Accuracy is a big thing here. By controlling bonuses tightly, the designers have inadvertently created a situation where optimization shows huge returns, because each marginal bonus is worth so much.


And there we have why this can be a bad idea. Because now "powerful sentient item" is basically "cursed". You may as well not have in the game, if the party will just ignore it. It removes options rather than expanding on them.

Depends on how far you go. The sentient-ness of the item should matter. But it shouldn't be so much that it completely overrides the character. Done right, it can create more choices than even a normal item, allowing players to decide how much of a leash they want to give Blackrzor in exchange for more power. But it's pretty difficult to do right.


There's got to be something more to DMing than killing PCs. Hmm.. Maybe challenges that can not be overcome with violence like intrigue or puzzles or exploration or solving murder mysteries.

Or just encounters that are interesting instead of difficult. A well-designed adventure is like a story. It should be able to engage you even if the ultimate outcome isn't particularly in doubt. Most people don't really want combats to be tense affairs where things turn on a knife's edge. The key challenge as a DM is to make things feel exciting without putting the PCs in real danger very often, because if you do that iterative probability will hit them where it hurts/

[Barbarian Horde]

I vote custom monsters tailored to the party's current strength. Another website with some google fu search skills you'll find that users enjoy making such things daily. Regardless as a DM there is no reason you can't have fun and think up interesting fights for your PCs.

This was a custom npc for example that me and my friends created for fun. An awakened walrus.
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/673330912762527767/721977877125398558/Captain_Tusk.png?width=1082&height=676

[DwarfFighter]

So what happened in two of my campaigns is that my players visited White Plume Mountain, and they got the legendaries from there.

I may have missed something obvious here, but how do the PCs just "visit" WPM and grab the loot? The fact that this happened TWICE suggests that the players (I'm going to assume they were the same players both times) are treating the setting as a video game where they can just go where they want and encounter "as written" locations, characters and treasure.

Seriously, what gives?

[Barbarian Horde]

I may have missed something obvious here, but how do the PCs just "visit" WPM and grab the loot? The fact that this happened TWICE suggests that the players (I'm going to assume they were the same players both times) are treating the setting as a video game where they can just go where they want and encounter "as written" locations, characters and treasure.

Seriously, what gives?

He could pull a Curse of Strahd with never being able to leave the town until the macguffin is killed/collected.

[Ralakos]

I may have missed something obvious here, but how do the PCs just "visit" WPM and grab the loot? The fact that this happened TWICE suggests that the players (I'm going to assume they were the same players both times) are treating the setting as a video game where they can just go where they want and encounter "as written" locations, characters and treasure.

Seriously, what gives?

I bought the module in roll 20 and i am playing it with different players, i have two sets of friends that i am DMing :)
They were both around the same period too, so it happened simultaneously before i understand my mistake, that they shouldnt keep them after the adventure.

[Boci]

This was a custom npc for example that me and my friends created for fun. An awakened walrus.

I assume that was for a low OP campaign, because whilst fun and quirky, Captain Tusk seems pretty weak. A Galeb Duhr is also CR 6, they have the same AC, twice the hitpoints, resistance to all non-magical weapon damage, and hits for +8 2d6+5. I think the Captains HP may have been miscalculated, and was he suppose to have multiattack?

[DwarfFighter]

I bought the module in roll 20 and i am playing it with different players, i have two sets of friends that i am DMing :)
They were both around the same period too, so it happened simultaneously before i understand my mistake, that they shouldnt keep them after the adventure.

Much clearer, thanks. I had this infuriating vision of entitled munchkins insisting of heading out into to a superspecific location, solve some puzzles they already knew the answer to and grab the loot like some sort of video game speed run :p

[Mork]

I woud suggest to either:
-Talk to the players: "the items I gave you are making it hard for me to challange you, I made a mistake, can we work together to scale back the power of your items a bit, maybe they will level up with you, so that it will create a more fun experience for both you and me". I find that players, especially if they have experience as GM, as actually quite open to this solution.
-Make the encounters harder, and if you can handle it, I would mostly reccomend more enemies. 3 giants, are now 6 giants. 1 Hobgoblin boss? now they are twins, that work together in everything. Fight a spawn of tiamat? when it dies, it spawns 5 adult dragons. More hit points will make it so that the players don't steam roll the enemies, but more enemies will make the combat harder for the players.

or off ourse, both ^^

[Kurt Kurageous]

I have this problem, too. I enjoy watching them struggle with the conflicts I create. I don't worry about solutions, that's their job. Mine is making problems that they want to or must solve.

Too powerful? Stop looking at/using CR IAW DMG and start looking at total HP on each side.

1. An encounter with party HP = monster HP is predictably winnable by the party with significant resources spent.
2. An encounter with the monsters ahead in HP 1.5 is less predictably winnable.
3. An encounter with the monsters ahead 2 to 1 will be exciting, potentially TPKing, and should be avoided if possible. It's unavoidable in boss fights.

Look at damage output, too. If everyone (both sides) hit, what would be the outcome after one round, two rounds, three rounds? After three, who cares? It should be obvious who's going to win/lose at the end of the third.

[Sigreid]

I'd suggest just slowly increasing the difficulty of encounters until you get a feel for what you're happy with.

Also, don't forget that challenges don't have to be combat. traps and obstacles can consume resources before the fighting starts.