Ways to cover more creatures in a Vitalist's Collective

[Segev]

Or non-Vitalists' collectives, too, but I'm focused on this for a Vitalist character.

The obvious methods are increasing your Wisdom score or increasing your Vitalist level (notably, these are not synergistic; you either have a number equal to your Wisdom modifier or half your level, not both). The next most-obvious method to do so at arbitrarily low level is Expanded Collective (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/feats/expanded-collective-psionic/), a feat which can be taken multiple times and increases your count by 2 each time it's taken. This stacks with either baseline method (Wis mod or half level) used to calculate the number you can have. Somewhat less obvious but good for those seeking to multiclass or take a PrC that doesn't count towards your collective is Expansive Collective (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/feats/expansive-collective/) (and isn't that confusingly named when Expanded Collective and Enlarged Collective also both exist), which lets you treat your HD as Vitalist levels for range and number of members.

The most obscure, I think, is interesting because it's not on the Vitalist's end. Some dromites (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/races/dromite/) have the alternate racial feature Atavistic Link (Su). They give up their 1/day energy ray to not count against the membership limit of a collective, and reduce the cost to use mind-affecting powers on them (hostile or friendly) by 1 (to a minimum of 0). This does mean they can be mindlinked to for free, but it also means they're more vulnerable to the far greater number of mind-affecting hostile powers out there. I suppose, on the other hand, most monsters will be using use/day features rather than power points, so it's not as big a downside as it might at first seem. Perhaps a Thrallherd could talk to his DM about getting a dromite hive as his Believers and thus having all of them in his Collective this way?

I have not found any powers out there that allow you to add somebody to a Collective without counting them against that number, which is sort-of understandable given that the feat to add to it is 2 per taking of the feat. I'm not sure how high level such a power should be.

My interest is in adding "utility" members who can be spoken to at range and maybe used as targets for things like dimension swap or sense link scattered around an area without having to remove them from the collective to add one's friends. This becomes mostly useful at level 15, or level 12 with Enlarged Collective (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/feats/enlarge-collective/), since at that point you can send your collective members far and wide and maintain contact. You need line of sight to add creatures, so if you drop them while they're away, you can't re-add them; juggling members is thus not even possible, let alone practical.

I have homebrewed a feat (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?634377-Teamwork-Feat-Collectivism) that is a Teamwork feat that requires the Vitalist as well as the would-be targets to have the feat. Having re-read Atavistic Link, I might change the secondary benefit of being able to re-focus for the creator of the Collective you're in to the same discount for mind-affecting powers, but only from manifesters that also have this feat (because, again, teamwork feat).

I'm contemplating this being used with trained animals that the Vitalist uses psychic reformation (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Psychic_Reformation) to retrain their first level feat to this feat in order to have them in the collective. For a Thrallherd, talking his Believers into allowing him to use psychic reformation on them to link them in this way wouldn't be too hard, I imagine.

Still costs the Vitalist a feat, and doesn't let him add arbitrary people to the collective the way the +2 size would, and costs a resource from the extra targets. Still not sure if it's not overpowered.

Are there any other methods I've missed? Any tricks people feel like sharing?

Thanks!

[Segev]

Bumping once to see if there's anything anybody has as advice or insight.

The use case I particularly want is a number of trained animals scattered around as useful targets for Shared Senses or a Dimension Swap like effect, and so the inability to re-add them after dropping them to make room for others is a key weakness in the limited number of members. But at the same time, I recognize that it should take investment.

[thethird]

A sycophant ring (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Sycophant%E2%80%99s_Ring) should work, basically like the racial trait.
chain collective (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/arcforge-feats#toc4) is very good at what it does, you need more people with the collective class feature

[Segev]

A sycophant ring (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Sycophant%E2%80%99s_Ring) should work, basically like the racial trait.
chain collective (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/arcforge-feats#toc4) is very good at what it does, you need more people with the collective class feature

Excellent! Those are the kinds of mechanics I'm looking for. Not sure they're quite what I need for this character, but they're very good starts. Thanks for pointing me to look at Metzofitz's magic item lists and the spheres of power teamwork/psionic feats.

Edit to add: Refinement Charms (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Refinement_charms) are 500 gp a pop, and require a 1000 gp enabler item, but there's one for +1 member of the collective, so that's 1000 + 500/extra member gp if you have the cash.

[TiaC]

Steelforge has Network Node Earrings. A pair is 13.5k and the if worn by different characters they are always members of each other’s collectives if on the same plane and can measure the collective’s range from the other character.

It counts against you maximum, but if you had a bunch of pairs you could swap the ones you are wearing as needed.

[Segev]

Steelforge has Network Node Earrings. A pair is 13.5k and the if worn by different characters they are always members of each other’s collectives if on the same plane and can measure the collective’s range from the other character.

It counts against you maximum, but if you had a bunch of pairs you could swap the ones you are wearing as needed.

So the Chain Collective feat in a magic item, sort-of?

[Jack_Simth]

Excellent! Those are the kinds of mechanics I'm looking for. Not sure they're quite what I need for this character, but they're very good starts. Thanks for pointing me to look at Metzofitz's magic item lists and the spheres of power teamwork/psionic feats.

Edit to add: Refinement Charms (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Refinement_charms) are 500 gp a pop, and require a 1000 gp enabler item, but there's one for +1 member of the collective, so that's 1000 + 500/extra member gp if you have the cash.

Mathing.... both items have a limit. Assuming market price:
Two bracelets can be worn, and support 5 charms each. So 1,000(bracelet)*2+5*2*500(charm)=7000
One necklace can be worn, and supports 10 charms. So 2,000(necklace)+10*500(charm)=7000
And of course, you can combine the two, to have 20 charms for 14k, and two of your item slots. So that will add 20 folks to your pool, at an average of 700 gp/person (market).


A sycophant ring (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Sycophant%E2%80%99s_Ring) should work, basically like the racial trait.
chain collective (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/arcforge-feats#toc4) is very good at what it does, you need more people with the collective class feature

The Syncophant's ring is more expensive (and has a drawback), but it doesn't impact your item slots, which means you can have as many as you can afford that way at 1,000 gp/person (market).

[Segev]

Mathing.... both items have a limit. Assuming market price:
Two bracelets can be worn, and support 5 charms each. So 1,000(bracelet)*2+5*2*500(charm)=7000
One necklace can be worn, and supports 10 charms. So 2,000(necklace)+10*500(charm)=7000
And of course, you can combine the two, to have 20 charms for 14k, and two of your item slots. So that will add 20 folks to your pool, at an average of 700 gp/person (market).



The Syncophant's ring is more expensive (and has a drawback), but it doesn't impact your item slots, which means you can have as many as you can afford that way at 1,000 gp/person (market).

Thanks for the math; interestingly, the charms become more efficient gp-wise the more you have. They're also better in that they're "universal" slots in your collective that you can change out at will, rather than specific people you can have in your collective.

Both are interestingly useful.

[Jack_Simth]

Thanks for the math; interestingly, the charms become more efficient gp-wise the more you have. They're also better in that they're "universal" slots in your collective that you can change out at will, rather than specific people you can have in your collective.Yes. +1 is 1500 (1 bracelet + one charm) (1500/person), +2 is 2000 (1000/person), +3 is 2500 (833.33.../person), +4 is 3000 (750/person), +5 is 3500 (700/person). After that, you need another 1,000 gp in enabling for more charms (whether adding a bracelet or switching to the necklace), and the sequence pretty much starts over.

The charms are better in:
They're more cost-effective past 2 additional members.
They don't come with a drawback (other than the item slot).
It adds to your pool, so you can swap collective members out at will.

The rings are better in:
No upper cap. The charms are limited by your item slots; the rings are worn by the collective members, and so you can have as many as you can find members and afford rings.
They're more cost-effective below 2 additional members.
The "drawback" is useful when you need to force members in.

[Segev]

Hard to weaponize the drawback, since they have to wear the ring for a certain time to have it work.

Edit: unless I am missing something?

[Jack_Simth]

Hard to weaponize the drawback, since they have to wear the ring for a certain time to have it work.

Edit: unless I am missing something?

Hard, yes. Impossible? Not so much. Generally though, there will be more effective things you could do for the effort.

[Segev]

Hard, yes. Impossible? Not so much. Generally though, there will be more effective things you could do for the effort.

I am curious how it could be weaponized. All the ways I can think of require you to already have all the power you'd need overhem without the ring's drawback.

Would a feat that duplicated or did something similar to the ring be broken? The most broken thing I can think of in a feat vs a magic item is psychic reformation being used on NPCs and pets.

[Jack_Simth]

I am curious how it could be weaponized. All the ways I can think of require you to already have all the power you'd need overhem without the ring's drawback.

A few ways?

Replace a ring the mark already has with a ring specifically intended to seem just like it (possibly including whatever other effects the original would have had) via Slight of Hand, B&E, or other methods. Replace a ring the mark is going to be wearing for a while due to an upcoming event (e.g., a wedding ring, a signet ring, a mark of office for an organization the mark is joining, et cetera) - again, via Slight of Hand, B&E, or other methods. Extremely niche setups that you're probably ending up doing several sessions around. Once it's on and the attunement period passes, they're now easier to charm or to force into your collective (or both). It's pre-encounter groundwork to slide things in your favor for later when rounds matter.

Don't get me wrong: There's generally going to be worse things you could do with that level of access. And no, you're not going to be jamming it on Orc Warrior #3876's finger then beating him unconscious sufficiently that he'll be out for the entire attunement period just to have a good chance of saving a spell slot or a few power points.

But it can be weaponized. It's just hard, and from a gamist perspective, there's usually going to be better uses of resources. Except, you know, for the fun factor. Which is fundamentally the point of the game.

Would a feat that duplicated or did something similar to the ring be broken? The most broken thing I can think of in a feat vs a magic item is psychic reformation being used on NPCs and pets.Yes, but only slightly more so than the ring itself (unless it's a PC-only feat via some means).

Consider the reason the thread exists in the first place: Desire to increase the number of members in the collective. Being able to put the load of membership entirely on the member means you could have ALL of those followers/believers/hirelings/charmed minions/whatever in your collective 24/7. The item is at least limited by your wealth. A feat you could Psychic Reformation in is limited by... what, exactly?

[Segev]

A few ways?

Replace a ring the mark already has with a ring specifically intended to seem just like it (possibly including whatever other effects the original would have had) via Slight of Hand, B&E, or other methods. Replace a ring the mark is going to be wearing for a while due to an upcoming event (e.g., a wedding ring, a signet ring, a mark of office for an organization the mark is joining, et cetera) - again, via Slight of Hand, B&E, or other methods. Extremely niche setups that you're probably ending up doing several sessions around. Once it's on and the attunement period passes, they're now easier to charm or to force into your collective (or both). It's pre-encounter groundwork to slide things in your favor for later when rounds matter.

Don't get me wrong: There's generally going to be worse things you could do with that level of access. And no, you're not going to be jamming it on Orc Warrior #3876's finger then beating him unconscious sufficiently that he'll be out for the entire attunement period just to have a good chance of saving a spell slot or a few power points.

But it can be weaponized. It's just hard, and from a gamist perspective, there's usually going to be better uses of resources. Except, you know, for the fun factor. Which is fundamentally the point of the game.
Yes, but only slightly more so than the ring itself (unless it's a PC-only feat via some means).Fair enough. I could see some fun built around that. Heck, it starts taking on a "9 rings for kings of men" type vibe if played to the hilt.


Consider the reason the thread exists in the first place: Desire to increase the number of members in the collective. Being able to put the load of membership entirely on the member means you could have ALL of those followers/believers/hirelings/charmed minions/whatever in your collective 24/7. The item is at least limited by your wealth. A feat you could Psychic Reformation in is limited by... what, exactly?Indeed. The main limit is that the individuals have to be willing, which Leadership or Thrallherd takes care of (insofar as "willing" believers are a thing). If you do it as a Teamwork feat, it might still cost the Vitalist or Tactician a feat as well. It's not unlimited, because it doesn't let you force every creature you meet into the Collective, nor does it let you have as many of the PCs as you want on top of extra members you're forcing in, unless the PCs are willing to spend valuable feats on it.

It does mean that as many minions as you can gather and retrain, you're just 7pp per person (possibly work of several days or weeks if you're doing this with a large number) away from psychic reformation making them all members of the Collective. This is a negligible cost, long term, and for many minions, the shift of one feat isn't that big of a deal. (Make it psionic, and you need to have two feats available for most, which can be prohibitive, actually.) Make it Teamwork, and the Collective-maker needs to spend a feat on it, too, at least. Which makes it a feat and whatever resources are used to gather the willing minions/pets to achieve it, then.

[Jack_Simth]

Fair enough. I could see some fun built around that. Heck, it starts taking on a "9 rings for kings of men" type vibe if played to the hilt.
Yep. Turns out most things can be useful, with a bit of creativity.


Indeed. The main limit is that the individuals have to be willing, which Leadership or Thrallherd takes care of (insofar as "willing" believers are a thing). If you do it as a Teamwork feat, it might still cost the Vitalist or Tactician a feat as well. It's not unlimited, because it doesn't let you force every creature you meet into the Collective, nor does it let you have as many of the PCs as you want on top of extra members you're forcing in, unless the PCs are willing to spend valuable feats on it.

It does mean that as many minions as you can gather and retrain, you're just 7pp per person (possibly work of several days or weeks if you're doing this with a large number) away from psychic reformation making them all members of the Collective. This is a negligible cost, long term, and for many minions, the shift of one feat isn't that big of a deal. (Make it psionic, and you need to have two feats available for most, which can be prohibitive, actually.) Make it Teamwork, and the Collective-maker needs to spend a feat on it, too, at least. Which makes it a feat and whatever resources are used to gather the willing minions/pets to achieve it, then.

It quickly becomes broken because there's straightforward workarounds for the problems you bring up. Look up Empathic Connection (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/e/empathic-connection/) and Unwilling Participant (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/feats/unwilling-participant-psionic/). It won't be every creature you meet, but it can be nearly every creature you defeat.

[Segev]

It quickly becomes broken because there's straightforward workarounds for the problems you bring up. Look up Empathic Connection (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/e/empathic-connection/) and Unwilling Participant (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/feats/unwilling-participant-psionic/). It won't be every creature you meet, but it can be nearly every creature you defeat.

Oh, sure, but that's hardly a combat use, and being in the collective is something one can leave if "unwilling participant" isn't used, and even then, something you can try to force your way out of with will saves. It certainly isn't happening in combat time.

I suppose my question here is: what use cases are you imagining? It's quite possible that could be made broken, but I'm not sure how it could be worth the effort with tons of less-than-willing participants you have to spend time psychic reforming.

[Kris Moonhand]

I've got a couple of feats I'm working on for my new book you might be interested in.

Collective Reinforcements [Combat, Psionic]
You link with summoned allies automatically, allowing them to leap directly into the fray.
Prerequisites: Collective class feature
Benefits: Whenever you or a member of your collective summons a creature, including, but not limited to: monsters from a summon monster spell, eidolons, astral constructs, constellation champions, and eclipse occultations; you may place any number of those creatures into your collective (up to your normal maximum) as a free action that may be taken even when it is not your turn. If a creature was summoned by an unwilling member of your collective, it still receives a Will save to avoid being added to the collective.

Improved Collective Reinforcements [Combat, Psionic]
The ephemeral nature of summoned creatures allows you to connect to them without much strain.
Prerequisites: Collective class feature, Collective Reinforcements
Benefits: You can have an additional number of summoned creatures (as defined in Collective Reinforcements) in your collective equal to your mental modifier that you use to determine collective effects (Wisdom for Vitalists, Charisma for Highlords, etc). Additionally, summoned creatures do not cause you to lose PP or become sickened when they die.As you might guess, I wrote these after being in a game with a summoner.

[Segev]

I've got a couple of feats I'm working on for my new book you might be interested in.
As you might guess, I wrote these after being in a game with a summoner.

Those do look neat. Not useful for my PC, but I can see the utility in general. The second one is particularly important, I think, if you're already pushing the edges of your Collective's limits with just your party.

My own use case is more a desire to have long-term minions/pets in the collective as "nodes" - particularly once the collective range goes to "anywhere on the plane" - for communication and long-distance Dimension Swap-like effects. And Share Senses.